| IVOD_ID |
16670 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16670 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
11 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-14T08:31:11+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-14T12:32:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:00:49 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d03307740e70b09aff02a0ef817a6d1e552bdb8234cc31cac5c9ee007f1f54f845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【專題報告綜合詢答】
【5月14日及15日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:11 - 12:32:00 |
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by bwd6 |
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1802.255 |
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報告委員會 出席委員人數11人 移組法定人數請主席現部開會好 現在開會請議事會議員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1812.014 |
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1835.709 |
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立法院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第十次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年5月8日星期四9時1分至14時30分地點群行樓801會議室出席委員陳委員昭之等15人列席委員羅委員明才等19人列席官員衛生福利部部長邱太元等相關人員主席蘇兆吉委員清泉 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1836.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1843.798 |
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報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請衛生福利部部長就長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃進行專題報告並被質詢邀請衛生福利部部長就澳洲進口豬腳驗出來克多巴胺如何加強食品 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1856.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1871.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
如何加強肉品食安查驗讓民眾放心進行專題報告並備質詢本次會議採綜合詢答由衛生福利部部長報告後委員陳昭芝等20人提出質詢均經衛生福利部部長及各相關主管等及其答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1872.452 |
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1890.925 |
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委員嚴寬恆、張家俊、吳立華及翁曉琳所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關器官於二週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定通過臨時提案一項宣讀完畢好請委員會上次議事錄有錯或遺漏之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1899.213 |
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1915.963 |
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謝謝 那就議事錄確定本會議議程為第一邀請環境部部長經濟部勞動部及教育部就我國推動綠色轉型政策相關人才別域發展與產業政策規劃進行專題報告並備諮詢第二邀請環境部部長衛生福利部勞動部經濟部農業部及教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1918.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1946.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
就全火及多火碗機物質管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化物相關管理期請進行專題報告並備諮詢那以上一層採綜合詢答現在就來介紹在場的委員及列席官員我們第一位到的是王振旭王委員第二位是陳昭之陳委員第三位是林月琴林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1949.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1976.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
環境部部長 彭啟明國家環境研究院院長 劉忠勇化學物質管理署署長 謝彥儒企劃變遷署署長 蔡玲怡資源巡防署署長 賴英英環境管理署署長 嚴旭明水質保護師 副司長 楚文帝還有作為規劃師 副司長 溫宣慧 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1979.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1992.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
環境保護師 護士長 呂雅雯大氣環境師 護士長 郭孟雲監測資訊師 護士長 胡明輝經濟部產業發展部署 護組長 周宇鑫政委規劃管理師 專門委員 蘇慧君國營事業管理師 專門委員 黃旭輝標準檢驗局 護組長 鄭慶紅 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2010.596 |
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2017.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
謝謝國際貿易署副組長余明芳謝謝能源署副組長鄭如寧謝謝還有美中小企新創企業署副組長施麗麗謝謝勞動部綜合規劃師副市長謝青雲 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2028.023 |
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2038.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
農曆發展署主任秘書施署會職業安全衛生署副署長萬榮滬教育部資訊及科技教育副署長邱仁傑 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2041.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2059.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
國民及學前教育署專門委員 薛成佑衛生福利部食品藥物管理署署長 江志剛國健署研究員 麥陽俊農業部動食物防疫檢驗署副署長 杜力華農業藥物實驗所署長 呂水淹還有農能署副署長 饒美菊 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2069.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2086.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
好 謝謝訓務司檢證機政馮怡月謝謝怡月署檢證機政鄭淑文謝謝那接下來我們就來請環境部本部長就本日議程定案報告時間十分鐘好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2091.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2107.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
主席各位委員大家早安還有我代表跨部會來進行這兩份的報告那各位因為我聲音我週末的時候過敏我不是感冒這邊也說明一下那今天比較沒有力所以也請各位多包涵一下下我是過敏這個我平常是敏感體質 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2108.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2125.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
第一個報告的是綠色轉型相關的人力培育發展的報告各位都知道現在全球的關稅政策還是受到很大的影響目前我們還是持續的有這樣的一個信心而且全世界沒有一個國家現在有明顯的一個轉彎 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2126.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2143.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
做一個決定所以目前我們在總統府的氣候變遷對策委員會也特別提到我們還會持續朝向這個目標前進這裡面有一個最大的一個就是擴大綠領人才的培訓的一個量能那根據我們環境部跟這個民間的人力銀行經由大數據去撈 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2144.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2168.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我們過去在8年當中,大概有1000多家的公司有聘用的綠營人才在去年年底的時候已經到達3600家,那未來還會持續的在增加當中同時僱用的人數已經超過22000多人,這個是wanted的但是我們一般來算的話,可能實際上工作的人數是他的5倍到10倍左右這個要看每一個工作的特性,目前我們還沒有這樣的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2169.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2197.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
但是這個是我們從實際上人力銀行wanted的所以這個是最直接最有效的一個數據那目前我們每半年就會有環境部跟各個部會一起跨部會來公布一個綠領人才的就業趨勢的一個報告下一個報告會在下個月會跟大家公布那現在我們有跨四個部會來進行推動這些事情首先是衛福部會跟我們綠色醫療的永續發展來做結合原民會我們要特別協助原民會特別對於這個自然碳匯 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2198.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2224.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
或是說所謂的原住民的探著產業的相關的人才的培訓那勞動部呢就是所謂的勞工的這個轉職或是增能的發展經濟部呢就是節能人才的培育像這個ASCO等等的我們有四個部會目前都跟我們在洽談當中希望很快的就可以推出來那現在呢我們也會建立一個綠領人才的資訊的平台這個很快的在一個月內大概六月的時候就會統一對大家公布我們會提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2225.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2248.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
相關的資源就業的資訊事實的查核國際的薪資因為我記得我去年來的時候很多的委員也提醒我們說坊間有很多這種所謂的非常貴的一個課程造成這個民眾很大的一個困擾所以現在呢由政府出來做基本上可以獲得一定的一個品質也可以擴大人數的一個參與那目前呢我們改變以前的方式以前是有環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2249.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2271.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
國安院來提供的在去年的話培育一千人今年我們跟著大學來合作在北中南東設了一個四個培育中心能夠共同來開而且我們提供教材然後統一的測驗最後呢給他核發證明現在呢我們今年的目標就希望可以到三千五百個人那例如說像這個我們已經跟四個大學台大 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2272.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2292.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個中央還有清大還有師大合作昨天也跟這個慈濟大學來合作在東部那目前呢我們總共32所大學跟我們環境部一起合作能夠來推動這個綠領人才的量能也就是說經過學校的這個協助這個量能呢可以很大的一個展開同時呢這個課程呢大概是只有1萬2而已喔48個小時1萬2而且呢我們對於學生30歲以下的這個碩博士生 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2297.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2315.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
或是大學生都是屬於免費半價然後如果是低收入戶是全額的免費這個就是我們對於青年朋友的一個很大的一個照顧所以我們預期未來呢像這樣的一個轉型需要很多的一個技術發展需要打團體戰那我們希望呢搭建這個淨零職場的環境跟人才資訊的平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2317.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2334.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
最重要的是說未來呢我們現在這個48小時已經開了3500個人未來呢在這下半年我們會陸續的因為我舉例像成功大學他們有很強的探捕桌跟封存的一個課程所以他們也希望加入我們所以我們會有大概12個小時的真人的課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2334.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2354.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
或是說整個生態的綠領或是綠建築等等有不一樣特性的大學它有不一樣的量能就可以來做一個提升所以我們希望藉由這樣的一個方式能夠有更多的一個正能課程也就是幫助年輕人或是幫助各界的勞工在面對氣候變遷這個新的趨勢有一個更好轉型的一個結果這是我第一份的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2355.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2376.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那第二份報告呢要給大家報告就是所謂的各位最關心的就是PFASPFAS還有相關的這個環境荷爾蒙的相關的一個資訊那我大概呢會有兩個部分喔第一個PFAS的管理行動計畫第二個是環境荷爾蒙的管理計畫那什麼是PFAS呢其實它是一個很複雜的東西它基本上呢是有包含了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2378.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2399.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
一個化學物質的家族的總稱所以它是很複雜的一個化學包含一個全佛甲基還有一個全佛亞甲基就是一般的CF3跟CF2等等那它因為它本身呢它是具有一個持久性而且生物的蓄積性它的毒性還有它的這個遠距離的環境遷移能力它是屬於一種持久性的有機污染物 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2399.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2412.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
所以目前過去在這個斯德哥爾摩公約裡面他就公告了34種物質陸續都在擴大當中而且每年的這個定期的會議裡面都有把它列為公開的一個事項在裡面那我國是在2008年開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2414.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2422.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
配合這個是的某公約開始進行的這個有行政院來核定這個國家的這個實行的計畫我們也列管了非常的多項而且呢有7個部會12個22個單位共同來進行合作所以我們目前呢過去就有進行做這個事情那這個合作是怎麼合作第一個要訂定法規第二個要監測我們台灣的是不是相關的環境有受到這個影響另外一個呢就最重要是源頭的管制還有這個使用的替代品 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2444.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2459.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
能夠取代最重要是跨部會的平台能夠來建立這樣的一個機制所以我們在去年呢我本人上任之後我記得我上任第二天5月21號就來立院備詢那也謝謝很多的委員也對於這個議題有很多的指教其中我記得林淑芬委員就這個議題就質詢我半個小時喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2461.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2482.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那是當天我就後來剛好也參加一個瑞典的活動所以我就請了一些國外的專家學者一起來協助來參與所以我們很快的大概在7月1號就匯集一個完成就化學署的能夠來整合各個部會7月1號就送到報行政院來審議去年的10月22號行政院就核定通過我們這個行動計畫來推動而且我們在當中也開了 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2486.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2502.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
一兩次的國家化學物質管理匯報的幕僚會議還有整個大會來進行所以目前呢我們是有12個部會組成這個推動小組跨部會的來推動這樣的一個PFAS的管理的行動的一個計畫那這個裡面呢包含了有幾個策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2503.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2524.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
包含了源頭管理流布的掌控國際的接軌還有產業的創新還有風險溝通因為這個東西如果說沒有解釋的清楚會引發社會很大的恐慌那如何找到對的訊息這是很重要的所以目前我們大概把配合這個聯合國式的跟我們公約的列管的進程把PFOS PFOA跟PFHSS |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2525.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2554.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
跟PFAS的列入毒性的管理物质我们根据公约滚动的新增现在共计列管了508种的PFAS那目前呢我们执行的状况呢分为三个阶段第一个阶段呢是在去年以前就是调查国际的动态因为其实国内呢还是有一些单位在使用这个PFAS我们必须要把国内的这个源头的资料能够掌控而且要提升我们本地的一个检测的一个量能那第二个阶段呢就是我们过去这一年多做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2554.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2574.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我們訂定的這個水質的水PFOS的水質標準例如說PFOA PFOS等等要小於50耐克每公升50耐克等等還有一個是70的這個呢就是提升國人已用水的一個安全這個是在今年的這個時候1月的時候公告的那另外一個呢未來就要加嚴因為對於水的這個項目呢我們檢測超標的處罰或是我們要對齊歐美等國這個就是我們現在在做的這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2580.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2608.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那所以在這個水污染防治的策略跟檢驗生成的方法我們在1月20號修正的公布了也針對大家關注的一個幾項我們都有提供一個放流水的數值來進行一個規定如果超標的就要提出自主的削減的管理一個計畫讓大家可以知道這個是特別針對科學園區或是這個工業區的專用污水下水道或是相關的一個業者都必須符合這樣的一個規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2610.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2627.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那另外一個呢其他的檢測的部分呢包含河川的底泥還有雨體或是河川的一個水體或是飲用水等等也都有相關的一個計畫包含了土壤及地下水我們針對這個土壤的點維的調查的點次或是事業的放流水我們都開始有針對一些事業體或是這個相關的一個濃度的一個調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2632.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2654.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
或是特別針對半導體或是光電業者的放流水都有進行相關的一個檢測那另外一個研發的部分的話未來就趕快進行這個試驗的研究相關的一個整治的技術特別是我們未來也會參佐國外的像美國過去其實有曾經說要訂定很嚴格但是過去因為新的美國環保署長上任之後想要放寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2655.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2669.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
但是最近他又提出來說要加嚴所以基本上我們一直在關注國際上相關的一個素質風險溝通的話我們其實很持續的跟大家來報告能夠讓民眾知道對PFAS的認知不要恐慌但是一定要有正確的認知來去面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2670.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2686.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那環境荷爾蒙的計畫其實很早在2010年就開始了我們目前是進到第三期就是2022年到2027年這個是主要是滾動的更新環境荷爾蒙的清單針對敏感族群加強保護跟宣導的工作所以目前我們這個計畫正在執行當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2688.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2705.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所以我們這次的計畫跟往前有點不一樣跨部會的溝通、法律規的修訂、宣導還有滾動式的納管所以這個也是跨部會的有環境部、經濟部等等的共同來執行目前我們也增列了很多源頭的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2706.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2722.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
總共列管了845種毒化物其中有446個是屬於環境荷爾蒙的一個物質在裡面那這個過去我們有針對環境標章的產品環境標章裡面就必須要把相關的環境荷爾蒙列為標準的評估的項目在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2722.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2743.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那環境的標準呢也包含了各種的重金屬等等也都把它放進去特別是還有一個檢測的一個標準這個都是我們環境部在推動的一個事情此外呢這個環境的空氣飲用水也都把它納進去相關的一個數值持續的一個監測那事業放流水環境的水體環境的土壤來都有進行做所以最後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2744.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2770.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
這兩個報告包含PFAS管理行動及環境荷爾蒙的宣導其實這個就是保障國人的健康這個裡面的教育宣導是非常的重要的我們會持續的來進行而且呢我們會持續跟歐盟跟美國跟日本先進國家來接軌增進我們對PFAS跟環境荷爾蒙的了解那當然啦這些事情都是要跨部會跨平台來合作我們會把所有的資料現在都已經放在網路上面也公開讓各位可以來批評指教謝謝以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2776.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2780.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
好 謝謝部長的報告接下來就 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2785.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2812.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
有關於本次會議的各項順便資料 均會列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始來做詢問 做一下宣告第一 本會委員詢問時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加2分鐘 4點半截止 歡迎登記委員如果順便質詢 請於三位前提出 預期不受理那暫列10點半休息10分鐘原則上11點半處理臨時提案10點半截止 收案現在請第一位登記的委員是陳昭志委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2817.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2819.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩彭部長你剛剛算是很詳細的討論到PFASFluoroalkylating Substance以下我們就用PFAS來形容它我認為它是一個非常頑固的物質 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2840.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2868.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
所以有人稱它是永久的化學品因為除非在非常非常特定的一個實驗條件下它才可能有一些短鏈被分解否則它就是老死不改變就是在那個地方那現在的問題是很多產業在製程中在各種狀況都會用到它那我先談飲用水剛剛你有提到這個飲用水的部分那就現實來說因為環境部去年11月有公佈飲用水水質的標準修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2869.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2886.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那把其中的兩種這個PFAS的組合分別定在每公升每公升50耐克跟這個70耐克那也就是10的-9次方的那個克那我們肯定就是說你們願意納入列管這部分已經有訂出這兩個標準但是我很驚訝的發現強制執行的時間竟然是在2027年7月1號在你們公佈時間大概兩年八個月以後那現在就有個空窗期囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2898.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2921.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那這個空窗期我想請教彭部長跟這個水保署今天來的是副司長那這兩年的空窗期你要怎麼來管理或有效抑制嗎要抑制它嗎因為當然我知道不能一步到位所以你們給了空窗期但這空窗期當中你做要做的哪些事能夠讓這個超標的這個水能夠有一個被抑制的一個情況被控制的一個情況有這個計畫嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2923.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2934.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
報告委員其實現在已經開始在進行就是檢測然後有些超標的我們就要求他提出改善的計畫所以不是說2027才開始現在已經開始在做已經在做檢測但是部長因為過去這個國內部分的淨水廠的檢測值已經有 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2939.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2943.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
超過美國的規範我們現在的那個標準是比美國還寬鬆就是第一點我們比美國還寬鬆第二個我們實行的時間還有兩年多那這個時間國人是會暴露在這個高風險那加上這個民眾如果持續飲用 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2958.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2968.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
高含量的PFAS的水的話那這個健康風險其實是誰來承擔呢那我知道兩位上次是市長跟部長在三月質詢上有提到就是說目前你先不採用罰錢的方法那OK你不採用罰錢的方法是說讓鈔票單位自己來進行通報進行通報那我們當然理解就是說讓業者來承擔這個環境成本的這種有某個程度是壓力我們也不能讓單一的 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2985.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3010.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
單一的部會或是單一的這個一個產業來承擔但是你如果不罰錢但是你當中又沒有一些計畫不管說你是分階段的一些協議計畫還是你加入的輔導等等等等或是怎麼一些公開的資料那怎麼讓這件事來做呢兩年多空中期你現在剛剛你的報告也都聚焦在這裡啊這是一個非常毒啊會致癌啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3010.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3026.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
會有很多的問題啊然後他到處在很多的地方啊那這個當中怎麼辦就是在2027年7月1號之前我還是想知道你們做了哪些措施既然不罰錢其實罰錢有時候是不得不的但是又是最有效的方法那你們不罰錢那用道德勸說嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3027.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3041.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
報告委員現在我們檢測出來全台灣的淨水廠裡面大概有2%的確是超過我們之前訂的一個標準所以我們要他們提出一個改善的一個計畫等一下我跟你講食物 食物的比例很高你說這個飲水是2%是嗎2%是淨水廠你們是全面檢測嗎全面檢測 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3048.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3073.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那還有呢就是你們現在就是去先檢測然後檢測發現之後你們現在做法是如何呢雖然那個法案要2027年才生效因為例如說有幾個地方它的PFAS比較高例如說中部或是說有一些機場的旁邊因為機場有很多消防的泡沫消防的泡沫是PFAS過去的PFAS蠻多的地方所以我們現在是源頭阻斷的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3073.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3094.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
他用的就不能再用,如果你這個還沒有新貨進來的話你一定要用廢污水的這個處理的標準來處理這個事情所以你們現在有掌握這些狀況?有有,其實幾個地方都有2023年也不會很久,12月那個IPAN就是國際污染物的消除網他發佈前一年的這個調查結果顯示PFAS會造成很多健康問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3095.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3119.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
包括生育率、生殖率下降那假裝腺疾病還有腎臟癌那呼籲各國其實基本上他們是呼籲全面淘汰的那他們調查食品包材當中台灣的檢出率很高你有沒有掌握這個數字雖然樣品數不多但是台灣的檢出率很高我看看你有掌握這個數字嗎有 這個請我們署長好不好檢出率你知道嗎 多少嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3124.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3148.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
實名包材的部分 這個部分是衛福部他們會去檢測但是在我們包材裡面因為PFAS是一個族群禁用的這個部分的話都是禁用的所以當然裡面我們也可能會測出PFAS我想我還是要讓大家所有的線上的關心的都知道我們有八個樣品雖然少但是有七個是檢出的 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3149.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3167.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
有七個超標欸 超標欸不是說檢出了 是超標欸這表示說台灣對食品包材的規範是不夠啊所以監察院才會那麼嚴正的糾正啊提出糾正 它有糾正化管署跟食藥署喔監察院是提出糾正所以我想現在是不是 我先請教一下衛福部好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3168.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3197.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
這個是您的專長吧 江署長我們的風險評估你一邊聽好了就麻煩做完了嗎你有沒有現在有個明確的限定那個值有沒有這個計畫那你的具體數字啊 食品的包材等等等等因為你知道食品的包材它會隨著溫度跟接觸時間慢慢這個PFAS的那個轉移量會慢慢的增加那食品包材的部分尤其像那個微波的 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3197.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3225.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
爆米花我們這個數字超過歐盟很多倍耶這個很多人吃 電影院根本就是叫人家買這個進去 很多人在吃啊那您有掌握到什麼程度呢 江署長 您是專家喔跟委員這邊做進一步報告因為我們也在PFARS的議題上面跟整個環境部這邊整個跨部會裡面的合作底下我們環境部公告的 目前公告的不可使用的嚴禁的部分 陸陸續續從 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3227.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3242.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
對 你要做評估啊 我們有做評估這部分的評估的部分呢 我們其實環境的批發物資呢 皆不得在我們現在的容器包裁完全是都不行 如果使用就會違法 違反食安法所以你的限職是零檢出嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3243.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3256.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
呃 它是因為它在環境裡面已經存在我們曾經很高欸 比人家還高欸對 所以它會有一些背景值的部分這是由你來設定的喔 是藥署來設定他們才去做集合啊 做檢測對 我們最後有禁用的部分我們就不再使用有資料了嗎 有標準了嗎 這個你確定了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3258.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3280.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
這部分我們就是檢測的時候我們持續在研議因為它還有一些變異的部分那署長就請你加快腳步啦因為這當中空窗期嘛大家都很擔心已經知道這麼毒了那就謝謝署長那我再請教這個環境部那你們這個管理行動計畫我知道你剛剛有唸到說有跨12個部會已經做了一些事情那你有沒有進行全國的盤點 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3281.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3293.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
因為國會到底哪些業者使用然後會放出哪些PFAS那監察院都會覺得你們有點當然之前戴護職守那你要點名多久呢監察院都已經提出糾正案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3293.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3311.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
跟委員報告其實我們對於剛剛部長有提到我們跟著公約的這個列管的物質我們持續都是掌握住所以對於公約已經有開始去進現用或者研究我們會不會拿進來在我們的調查清單裡面我現在重點是說就算其他的國家標準不一台灣還是這樣可以做啊是 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3312.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3329.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
不是要等著別人看在根本報告就是已經接了我們會跟上在5月13我們全部再把它公告另外一個是說在國際還沒有列管可是在我們台灣有的也可以做有將近300種那我想先請教食品的包產你認為是不是可以是可替代的 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3329.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3344.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
你要先認定你就才會去做啊當然是可替代啊可替代你認可替代那你是不是開始要去禁止或是優先優先去禁用然後你要幫他們找或是建一些可替用的這個包材嘛有目前國內其實也有這個產業界可以有生產這個替代因為PFAS進入人體的方式途徑很多元嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3347.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3376.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那工廠排放的水也是一個嘛所以我剛剛你也報告那個部長也報告說那就是說以市長來說你是有支持那個排放那個放流水這個放流水也要納入這個總有濾因為問題來自這個伏過去是濾是一個大澳新的毒那伏就是這次的那個PFAS你要不要同意納入這個標準呢總含伏濾要納入標準呢對已經納入了有納入那你的標準是比其他國家是 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3378.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3406.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
更嚴格嗎我跟委員報告我們的標準我們是目前各國都還沒有定相關的標準那我們有定PFOA PFOS跟PFHX然後我們是參考國外的這個地面水體的水質標準然後以稀釋10倍的這樣子一個基準值要求業者來進行就是檢測申報如果超過我們這個基準值我們會邀請他提改善計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3407.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3433.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
因為之前你們有點配合自來水公司有點延後讓他延後去處理這件事情啦那才被糾正啊 才被這個監察院糾正啊如果說覺得說少一事就是比較OK的那這樣的話永遠就不會進步啦根本報告補充一下就是說對於這個事業放流水這部分我們也是很重視可是全世界在這個放流水當中還沒有訂定這方面標準所以我們事實上已經先開始一步了 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3434.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3463.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那我希望我們這個管理架構要現在是目前是集中在這個飲用水跟這個部分個別原料的這個部分列管那我剛剛也聽到說你跨部會這個部分已經啟動了那環境部你要負責毒物嘛這個還有化學物質的那個主則機構所以你應該要主導就是這個政策是要主導這個角色那剛剛你們對針對非必要用途的部分要把它辨識出來那辨識出來以後就是你要去找能夠去比較安全的替代的 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3463.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3481.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
替代的產品這個東西就是要趕快來做這個就是說整個是不要讓民眾在這個空窗期成為政策的這個犧牲的對象被犧牲對象那那個歐洲的環境署上個月底發布PFAS的那個是他是要全面生命週期的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3482.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3499.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
因為它整個過程像化工、紡織、食品、電子、醫產它都用到從生產到製成到廢棄的時候大概都可能對人體產生這個風險所以它不是單一的問題所以是不是全程整個源頭的管理你們的部分是要做到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3499.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3524.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
沒錯我們也都是follow這個歐盟尤其我們跟瑞典都有一個合作的關係我們有一群同仁5月就會到瑞典化學集他們9月會來所以我們都是掌握這個歐盟的進展所以一萬多種他是有一個很長的一個管理期程那他會分優先順序比如說有替代品的就優先那其他的就有一個時程這樣改善我們會跟著他的腳步來走 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3525.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3532.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
主席我可以再一兩分鐘嗎因為台電大甲溪光明秋旭水利發電這個計畫現在有很大的問題這項計畫是利用大甲溪德基水庫為上池谷關的水庫是下池它搭配了一個滿長10公里的這個隧道頭水隧道那它整個總裝置的容量大概610MW而且大概供給10年但是問題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3550.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3555.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
當地住民反對 環團反對 許多關心中衡的國人也反對但是環境部都視而不見 你終於進行了二階的環評那環評雖然要求再補正 包括這個工程的淨流放廢水還有這個邊坡的滑落對水庫淤積跟水溫地質的影響那還有衍生土石放的問題 我覺得會放水的理由是因為德基跟谷關之間的地質脆弱 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3575.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3604.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
地質脆弱中衡交通不便問題這個非常重要可是你們都沒有注意到這件事情部長我先給你看一個圖你看這個圖真的會嚇到部長你看這個報導2024年聯合報做的中衡修復專題報導他清楚的提到目前的中衡變道有特別容易特別容易落實極重的地方就是這段谷關道德基這段也就是台電這次要搞的這個光明殿堂水利抽蓄的這個兩大水庫間的路段你看這個圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3605.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3627.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這個圖在大甲溪中橫階段多脆弱啊有武陵斷層跟青山斷層兩大佞城在這個地方那這個問題經濟部看不到 台電看不到那我想環境部的環評委員也沒看到我知道你最不好說那幾位啦 不要當經理那我現在告訴你 你面對經濟部的時候 腰桿要挺直最後一張我告訴你 他們內行人自己講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3628.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3655.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
台電的這個主角大甲溪發電電廠他採訪時說了什麼災後遭遇沖行不便使電廠的維修跟日常運作做到阻礙他繼續他講了實話出來那現在台電硬要跟老天爺爭地在這個最脆弱的土質最脆弱的地方繼續開發然後挖隧道然後要去做這個水利抽搐工程那環評會講話了嗎你這一屆的環評會很奇怪就很多資料他都不管部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3657.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3686.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
要挺直腰桿啊現在是要求他們提出地質還有生態的相關資料很危險喔有叫他們要提出補正後再審所以還沒有過還在審查的階段我認為對你最大的期待還是在經濟部是負責開發但你做環評的部分是保護人民保護國土所以我希望你挺直腰桿面對好嗎那也請你的環評委員會要公正不能只做護航好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝陳委員部長要挺直腰桿 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3687.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3710.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
環境部要保護部長的身體,現在部長有敏感室內的CO2又1068ppm這對敏感的部長身體會有傷害接下來請委員來做詢問好,麻煩我們的部長請部長李委員好部長早 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3712.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3735.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
今天想來問一下 因為今天談的很多主題 事實上是都跟兒少有很大的關係所以還是要來問一下 因為我覺得環境權本來就是孩子很重要的一個權利26號意見書也講得非常的清楚 所以我們就繼續來談這個課題也就是說 部長 我覺得盡力不疑弱任何人這句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3736.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3765.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我相信部長一定知道這是公正轉型很重要的一個核心概念那透過幾次質詢大家很肯認部長已經意識到兒少參與非常的重要那當然我有想部長你應該也知道上週才剛判決的台灣第一起的那個氣候訴訟其中一個關鍵的爭議點就是在於脆弱族群怎麼認定從氣候調適到公正轉型怎麼辨識這些高風險最容易被忽略的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3766.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3788.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
評估影響衝擊還有配套怎麼做這些都是環境政策不能閃避的議題所以想問部長在強調不疑若任何人的政策方向上這些最難在政策制定過程當中發生最容易被排除的人你們是怎麼去讓他參與瞭解需求而且確保他們不疑若 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3790.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3807.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
謝謝上次委員的這個質詢那經過這一個多月我們一直想辦法所以目前我們最新的辦法跟委員報告一下就是說我特別找了內政部的統計處跟我們從資料治理的角度來看因為例如說像這個脆弱的族群不管是兒少或是年長者 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3808.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3837.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
他到底人在哪裡我們不知道或是有多少人我們政府有多少的資源可以做所以我們現在呢正在組成一個團隊當中那我們也開過會了所以我們要針對族群有多少然後把它撈出來我們要個案的試了一個一個來做輔導所以這個是我目前進行的一個方式好 部長的確上次在我質詢之後我也很看到就是你們把社會福利的需求去考量所以呢就有一個對那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3838.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3851.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
抗高溫的對策聯盟邀請第一線的專業社福團體參與那很開心你能這樣子做可是我要特別強調是這個參與不能只是開一次的記者會或開個論壇 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3854.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3868.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
就算了像這樣子的話根本沒有辦法達到失職的效益在你去參考美國紐約他們的長期的氣候計畫裡面他們是以成立氣候正義工作小組的方式進行脆弱群體跟議題的盤點 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3869.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3884.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
小組裡邊也同樣有來自社福庇護系統多元族群的代表所以想問部長你這個抗高溫聯盟社福團體的參與機制是什麼你能不能承諾不是點綴而是實質的參與而且有政策影響力的參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3885.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3909.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
報告委員其實我們這次做就是從實務站做因為各位我們過去台灣對於這種調試計畫很多沒有一個實際上務實的落地所以委員你提的這個建議把這個兒少的相關的族群納進去我會再來檢視一下我們有沒有納進去我也跟委員承諾絕對不是一個辦記者會或煙火式因為我們希望有行動延續到明年可以做得更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3909.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3924.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
對 部長我剛剛講抗高溫對策聯盟 當時事實上是我是為了攝服他們有非常多像無家者 或者是安置機構 或者事實上是攝服機構他根本就是沒有辦法去應對這個高溫這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3928.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3945.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
所以也希望你還是希望你在針對於不是一次性的會議能夠比照美國紐約這樣的方式針對於社福或庇護系統的或多元族群的代表都要納入可能不是只有兒少另外我就想來跟部長討論一下環境部事實上有一個人權委員會那這個會議兒少的參與狀況我想問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3949.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3973.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
一年兩次會議而且只有一個代表我不知道這個代表怎麼來的而且很單薄的那你覺得這樣子能夠協助你完整的掌握環境政策當中下一個世代的觀點嗎因為這個會議而造異見的回應跟列管情形是如何我覺得部長你可不可以做回應這個請問副市長因為我還沒有開過這個會不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3976.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3986.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
謝謝委員有關於這個環境部人權小組部分呢我們現在目前就是有陳兒少的委員來參與除此之外我們有其他的一些相關的諮詢會議也會邀請我們這個行政院的相關的兒少的團代表來給我們一些諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3996.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4016.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我覺得第一個我真的是覺得很擔保還有依據公約對兒少參與應該要有一些友善措施所以想問就是說那樣的因為有時候他們在一些環境裡面你要叫他們表達他跟成人委員在一起甚至有時候成人委員有時候我們自己在看以前我在 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4016.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4044.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
不會去參與或在行政院參與的時候很常甚至地方很常會成人委員很沒禮貌的打斷他們或者是對他們不友善或對他們提出的一再質疑所以我想問問你們的友善參與程度是什麼有沒有主動去培力這些兒少怎麼去應對甚至他有沒有有機會去諮詢到一些你們特定可以協助的人還有一些討論的窗口還是收到開會通知單就自己消化然後來開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4047.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4061.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
報告委員這個部分我們跟兒少的委員有非常密切的一個互動如果他有需求的部分我們都會跟他們做一個回覆另外呢除此之外不只是在人權小組會議之外我們有相關的一些像法令的這個研修的部分我們也會有徵詢這個兒少的相關的意見所謂參與權是要先賠利他們然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4072.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4096.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
要有善的環境聽取他們的意見然後呢等到他們表達意見的時候你們還要能夠去回應他們我也希望這個人力太少以外還有一個我希望你們做到這幾個原則再來想問一下延續剛剛我們討論的兒少跟青少年的參與問題因為除了環境部的人權委會我更擔心的是現在你們針對兒少跟青少年的參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4097.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4120.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
大概都是停留在一次性的活動的層次所以去年10月份環境部舉辦了今年參與氣候變遷的政策的工作坊那個青年明確的指出說現在參與方式零碎然後缺乏持續性沒有制度化的可以溝通的一個管道所以你剛剛才會講說我一次有時候偶爾去邀請政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4121.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4144.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
對他們來講就是來參加一次那11月我也參加了你們所謂的未來世代的論壇當中青少年也表達希望能夠積極參與政策想透過教育行動跟國際交流一起面對我們的氣候危機不過想問部長他們都講了可是你們似乎還是一樣就是都停留在至少我看到去年都是一次性的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4145.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4151.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那他們也提到說他們想參與政策我想部長你們後面到底有沒有準備要讓他們參與啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4153.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4174.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
報告員的確因為我自己年輕的時候也參與過很多的活動那我必須我的觀察來看的話政府對於青年的這個銜接因為青年的這個變動性流動率都蠻快的所以與現在政府的體制去跟年輕人對接的確是有一定的難度那委員再給我一點時間我去盤點因為我們最近青年圓夢計畫我們環境部有 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4176.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4205.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
有很多的名額去幫年輕人去一起合作我們有一個旗艦那裡面就有很多年輕人是做永續就氣候相關的我們發現那個互動就會不一樣所以委員再給我們一點點時間我找到一個更好的因為他們也來跟我表示說這樣的參與權是假的而且是利用他們來做裝飾品這個很不應該那再加上今天談的這麼多主題我非常相信孩子講的這個地球未來是他們要在這邊生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4206.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4220.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
大人們你的所有不好的政策沒有提前讓他參與可是這個地球是未來他們要生活那地球就是他們的生存發展很重要的一個環境結果我們留給他的到底是什麼所以為什麼會在今天要討論這麼多主題來跟你討論這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4223.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4239.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
主要就是這樣就如果你們都不讓他們去參與去了解甚至我自己這麼七八年在跟兒少代表接觸他們幾乎對於環境的這一塊相對於國外真的是很弱為什麼因為我們國家沒有特別去賠利他們比較關心的是教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4240.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4257.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
再來次關心的是交通 因為那跟息息相關 可是環境部息息相關嗎 息息相關 可是似乎我們環境部已經成立了 可是也沒對這一塊多做一些什麼事情 甚至他旁邊也提出來說他需要了解參與的困難 甚至體制化怎麼去參與的管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4258.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4271.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
而定期要舉辦固定的窗口列館而是要參與賠利這是當天他們提出來的我也不知道後來想問他都告訴你們他們要怎麼參與了可是似乎這個到底這些解方已經給你們你們有沒有做 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4273.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4292.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
這個我回去再來檢討一下好不好這個的確是一個我們關切的議題這個其實在聯合國的氣候會議裡面每次青年都有一個很大的論壇來討論那目前在國際的組織有建立這個平台是比較順暢的那臺灣我必須我的觀察是的確是比較零碎的郭先生我要提醒你因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4293.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4309.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
明年就要交國家報告了CRC兒權公約第三次要審查在2027可是明年就要交國家報告你們事實上從2017年他就強烈的在提醒你們那也叫你們說要把兒少所帶所表示的意見納入適當的立法跟行動當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4311.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4326.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那可是你們竟然回答的是說要引導民眾關心自己的環境權跟了解所有所處的環境的品質你們2017年這樣回答那當然當時事實上是環保署那我們再來看你們2022年的回答下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4330.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4345.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
2022年人家的結論性意見第二次來審查的時候他也是再次的提醒你們可是似乎你們只有針對第一項有回答第二項第三項一樣的他期待還是要有保有有效的參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4346.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4373.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
要兒少有效參與可是截至到去年管考的時候你還是不理會這個兒少的參與那我就不懂就是說已經都一直不斷的每一次國際委員來審查的時候都再度的提醒似乎環境部好像都沒有針對甚至他也期待說已經在2022年的時候他已經預期他的26號一般性意見書會出來他已經指引出來希望你們盤點整個的 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4375.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4395.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
相關的法規目前 好沒有那我上次在質詢的時候也提醒你們不過你們竟然送給我的東西竟然事實上是我叫你們要針對於環境部所有的法規有沒有符合兒權公約的時候你們給我的事實上是空污相關的法規跟改善的措施來回應我 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4395.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4403.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
難道兒少只有面對空污的相關法規嗎那CRC他也非常清楚的說你怎麼去盤點先初步篩檢界定範圍收集證據然後審視兒童參與的狀況還有評估影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4408.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4429.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
結論跟建議也要持續追蹤我希望你們接下來按照這個來操作也建議你們邀請專家學者公民團體跟青少年一起來做盤點的工作而不是閉門造句也不是走形式的塞法條給我這樣子的話我覺得我要看空污的法條做什麼我要的是你們整個去盤點所有的這樣子的一個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4430.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4456.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
這才會是最理想的以上 謝謝委員 我會列入考慮我們會來進行 著手進行這個工作再麻煩部長 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝林委員接下來請陳清輝委員來做選檔謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員還有官員我請環境部部長來 請平部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4462.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4489.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
部長好第一個我想先關心就是許多醫療體系最近很在意的議題因為大家都知道說這個碳排查的問題是醫療體系佔排放量很大宗嘛是超級碳排的大戶那目前知道衛福部已經有26家的部立醫院已經完成碳排查了但說實在的是很多這個醫護人員跟我反映的他們其實平常業務真的是非常的繁忙但他們還需要再另外派人 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4490.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4516.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
去學習所有的這些的知識那我知道說你們未來預計呢要再做23家醫學中心的攤盤查可是對於資源相對比較低像現在人力比較缺乏健保的點值也受到很多限制的區域醫院還有地區醫院他們會希望爭取更多的資源來支撐不知道這方面你有沒有辦法做協助呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4517.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4543.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
報告委員因為我所知道是衛福部醫事司大概一年兩千萬來做這個協助這個碳盤查這個工作但是以我們環境部的認知其實因為第一個醫院我們不會收他碳費所以基本上醫院應該是主動的去節電做這個ASCO相關的節電這個比做碳盤查來得更實際一點點所以包含像長庚醫院他就非常的認真那但是有些醫院我剛剛講的是區域醫院那不是區院對 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4545.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4573.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
就醫學中心當然他自己像長庚醫院他甚至有自己研發節能的能力對所以我講的是比較小型的可是他可能在社區或者是偏鄉相對蠻重要的他們會希望衛福部可以明確來規範他們要做哪些減碳的措施還有碳盤查哪些是必要的項目但這方面的話關於這些小型的醫療機構他們是希望衛福部或者是環境部來 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4575.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4596.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
給衛福部協助可以多給一些誘因或者是資源等等的我們現在明年開始會是擴大列管的範圍不過是以醫學中心為主所以那個中小型的其實是不會列管的但是如果說中小型他願意去改善那個節電的話他也是省錢的一種方式啦我們也是鼓勵啦但是目前的確是沒有資源來特別協助他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4597.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4623.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
好這是他們很在意的一個點那再來這題比較特別一點點是因為剛之前有質詢過您關於環境部的任性計畫裡面就有包括核生化這些救災車等等的所以您會知道說任性是未來我們國家很重要的一個議題尤其是地緣政治的關係或是位處於地震帶那當然您有做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4624.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4645.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
這個全國公測工程的補助計畫叫做美質環境推動計畫這個是很好但今天想要跟你討論一個重點是日本呢他們在經歷過阪神大地震還有後續的其他地震之後他們就發現在沒有電力沒有排水的狀況之下其實市民的如測權變成一個很重要的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4647.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4674.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
對那這個是後來我們去研究日本他們怎麼做他們就開始去開發一個組合式的公測那他會在這個人孔蓋拿起來以後把它接上去裝上去之後這個組合時間其實只需要15分鐘但是他兼顧了隱私那兼顧了這個韌性那兼顧長輩的尤其是行動不方便的這個等一下我們再來看台灣的來做一個比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4675.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4684.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
所以我是在想您有沒有考慮把韌性列入您未來公測的設施改善計畫當中我們目前還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4684.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4713.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我們目前還沒有在做這個事我們現在是改善這個廁所的品質公廁的品質為目標所以委員提這個建議非常好我們可以來想看看怎麼樣來推動這個事情給你看一下我們現在的圖當然您現在的改善計畫裡面包括了永續、環保、性別平權友善、綠能等等精神都已經是現在國際公廁的趨勢沒有錯可是加入任性的話這個是我們平常會看到的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4714.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4727.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
像這樣子一台租一台的租金大概是600到700而且移動的時間你要把它考量進來對不對到時候如果是地震或者是大型的災害他搬進來是非常不容易的 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4728.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4745.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
還有他其實長輩不友善他完全沒有無障礙的空間對那這個是我們現在要用的所以我希望說未來可不可以一個月內提供書面報告是不是考慮在下個年度把任性這樣子的概念放進您的公策改善計畫裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4746.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4772.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
好委員這個我們來研究一下因為目前這個是中央災害應變中心他因應這個可能發生這種緊急事故的時候他的確有這樣的一個規劃但是我們現在環境部門美職的這個廁所改善並沒有含在這一塊那這個我們來研究一下對但因為全國的公廁是您是最高指導單位嘛對對因此這也是日本人他們遇到了大型災害以後才發現哇原來他們之前除了電力除了水 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4772.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4776.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
除了飲食他們沒有考慮到的地方他們才會去做這樣子的發明好 謝謝委員滿好的意見 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4780.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4806.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
好下一個您年初的時候曾經提出說你要發表一個新空瓶政策白皮書作為第三期那因為這個議題大家最近越來越關切5月17以後火力發電可能會提高到84%所以大家也想知道現在已經今年已經快過一半了可是您年初說要做出的這個白皮書到現在都還沒有看到請問現在進度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4806.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4830.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
包委我們禮拜五就會公佈已經好了那因為我自己我自己也有在看看得很細一個一個在改所以稍微延後了大概一兩個禮拜那這個禮拜五就會開記者會對外公佈那之前您曾經說到說這個白皮書可能包括預報還可以應變然後還可以做管理您方便現在稍微透露一下您是要怎麼利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4832.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4846.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
這個應變管理或是預警來加強好第一個是我們過去那個空瓶的預報或是監測是屬於監知師那大氣師是發如果空污的時候他們再來整個統合還有跟各縣市環保局那現在他們已經這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4847.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4864.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
做整合了我們有一組原來做預報的同仁已經移到大西市去進行運作了所以現在在磨合當中所以未來他們這個速度就會更快例如說遇到空屋的事件的時候他們就會更快的結合到發布到民眾跟地方政府共同應變來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4865.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4893.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那這個報告書呢其實也跟委員報告其實我們最近也發現就是說很多大家的民眾的空屋呢生活的空屋是蠻多的例如說我們家裡面一打開瓦斯那個LNG一打開其實也有很多的這個微粒會跑出來所以其實未來我們民眾的生活的空屋如何改善這個是未來是我們一個很大的一個重點所以你的意思是說你這個白皮書很大一部分是要告訴民眾說他生活中不管是他接觸家用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4894.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4921.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
家用的這些電器或者是說他的交通工具你想要提高這方面的意識其實最重要是說因為我們有一個目標啦我希望說2030年我們PM2.5可以拚到10啦這個是我們一個很大的目標那當然現在進入一個深水區現在的工具是做不到的但是如果敬禮努力做有機會PM2.52030可以到10以下或是2035可以到8這也是大家最擔心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4922.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4946.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
因為我已經告訴你很快火力發電就會提高到84%所以本席今天想跟您討論的是您之前受訪的時候提到說電力對於國內境內的空污來自交通的占比是12.2%工業大概是10.7%電力的占比只有2.3%而且主要是火力發電這一點跟一般 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4947.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4975.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
民眾的嘗試或是直覺落差非常的大所以這一點是想要今天跟您請教的是說您的資料來源是不是台灣污染源排放清澈TDS 12.0對 2021年的由我們環境部所委託的然後蒐集全台灣的各種的排碳源然後把它排放之後經由大氣的擴散之後算出來一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4975.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4991.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
所以您講的火力發電站空乎的2.3%其實您指的只是PM2.5嗎?對 PM2.5有包含它自己本身直接排放的或是它衍生的例如說Sux、Nux都在裡面是一個統合的結果但是你如果把其他這些衍生物 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4993.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5010.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
氮氧化物或是硫氧化物加一加它並不只2.5%2.3%包委員因為我們空汙現在大概都直接看PM2.5因為PM2.5有包含它原生的或是它衍生的例如說SAXNAX或是ORON臭氧它們其實經過化學反應之後也會造成微粒的增加好 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5011.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5038.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那在您引用的這個資料呢其實流氧化物或是氮氧化物它的比例是蠻高的它在火力發電站全國的污染比例分別是16.5%還有40.4%那您說出2.3這樣子的數據其實跟裡面看到的40.4它的落差是很高的我是希望啦您還是可以讓人民知道說第一空污的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5039.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5064.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
來源不只是PM2.5因為其實您剛講到其他東西全部都是很傷害人體健康的沒有統一基本上我們現在看的都是PM2.5因為PM2.5就包含它原生的微粒或是說例如說燃煤電廠它一定有微粒那您會告訴我們說未來5月17之後您最在意的這個PM2.5所佔空污的比例到底會不會升高 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5065.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5088.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我們有算過 評估過 如果說河山的兩個機組關掉之後這幾年前我們就有特別做過了 其實大概只增加0.003維克但是我必須說那是年平均 不是說某一天因為有時候萬一大氣擴散不好的時候其實有時候某一些可能相對的會比較高 那個是一個平均的數值 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5089.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5106.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
好因為現在許許多多你知道現在鄉民也非常會做這些資料的分析所以我希望未來你還是可以在PM2.5以外其他會影響人體健康的你都把它一起算進來好嗎是可以但是我們現在看的都是PM2.5它直接或間接衍生的這個污染物 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5107.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5132.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
最後一個問題就是您今天講到的這個PFAS管理行動計畫其實本席只是想點出跟你們其他環境部以前的專案不同在哪裡你們以前包括提出了比如說污染鑑定還有感染技術開發計畫還有全國環境檢測智慧轉型計畫水質推動計畫等等等等等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5132.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5155.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
都會做好三件事情第一個就是把總經費還好包括上次你提出的任性計畫其實化學任性計畫也是一樣嘛第二是把責任分工規劃好每一個機關每一年要花多少錢做多少事情還有把績效還有進度都訂好像是你總共要做幾年然後你每年至少要做到哪些事情可是在你這個PFAS |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5157.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5167.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
管理計畫從頭翻到尾是非常的空泛的第一個沒有執行年限第二個沒有制定績效第三也沒有總經費沒有分年期的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5170.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5186.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
因為P5S本身就是施德荷爾摩公約的一個延伸的管理物質那我們從1997年其實就有一個這個叫做持久性有機化的公約這也是跨部會的那當時的執行方式就是因為這個物質它是一直不斷的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5188.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5217.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
所以在擬定那個計畫當時就不會把定下一個期限但是它是每年都有工作項目然後每年檢討你現在唯一考核管制每年就只有一次那上一次我質詢的時候才剛爆出說有37座淨水廠遭到包含PFAR之內的致來物超標但是飲用水條例都已經28年沒有修訂了所以其實訂定績效是蠻重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5217.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5236.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
是 各位報告這個我們會來檢討因為工作項目真的是跨了七個部會太多那經費都是在原來他的計畫裡面去融資所以譬如說因為他這個有機軟物是很多種那現在我們是希望他PPS優先來做可你優先來做要抽出多少錢來 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5237.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5256.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我們在跟部位研商的時候其實這有困難不過我們來盡可能來把它看能不能這個期限上好 那再麻煩一個月給我兩個報告第一個是廁所的韌性第二個是這個你PFAS管理計畫要如何做改進謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝陳金輝委員接下來請圖全級委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5269.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5272.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
好謝謝主席請我們彭部長請彭部長委員好部長那 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5278.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5303.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
當然我們現在我國在積極推動淨零轉型嘛那現在是我們的重要工作那勢必高碳排高耗能這些產業一定是首當其衝那我看你去年也有指出像我們電子零組件金屬製品批發零售業這些行業勢必會受到我們這些我們短期因為推動淨零轉型的這些衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5305.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5317.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那也看我們你那時候指出我們可能預估2025年失業人口大概會超過1萬到2050年失業人口可能會超過4萬那 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5319.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5341.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
部長也有表示會跟我們像環境部會跟勞動部經濟部我們一起成立跨部會的淨零職場的轉型平台那這個平台現在建立了嗎報告委員你提到那個報告是勞動部當年委託學者做的報告啦那他有很多的這個假設那我也跟那個洪森漢洪部長討論過那個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5342.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5369.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那基本上我知道那個報告沒有繼續做下去的因為我們都是這個領域做的人啦所以知道說像我們看到綠領的工作機會多在增加那我們現在還看不到任何一家企業因為淨領開始這個裁員所以目前來看的話那份報告是學者他一些推估啦所以我們認為可以拿來做政策的可信度的使用程度並不高所以這個是也跟委員報告那另外一個呢是其實這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5371.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5394.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
勞動部洪森漢部長很重視這個問題所以在包含了5月1號有一些勞動勞工朋友的這個代表提出一些七個建言其中有一項就是淨零所以目前的確我們跟勞動部有合作一個平台準備就要討論針對這種勞工未來他要進行公正轉型或是說淨零的時候他們需要如何的參與所以我們準備要來談這個事情了 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5395.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5416.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
所以你部長的意思是說這個近年轉型不會衝擊到這些產業嗎那個可以再算但是我必須說之前去年那份委託的研究報告我自己從我個人的角度因為我必須那個是勞動部委託的計畫但是從我自己這個領域的專業來看的話那份報告參考價值度不高 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5417.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5431.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
對那我請問部長那如果我們這個近年轉型推動的部分那你們應該也有評估啊那像這會不會像我們剛剛講你說這只是他們的預估那有沒有可能事實上真的會衝擊到這些產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5432.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5458.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我們觀察現在的確有一些產業它是非常傳統的然後它甚至本身已經沒有國際競爭力的那它的確在這波壓力之下可能會被迫有一些調整這個我們一直密切在注意但是目前這樣的案例不多那我們現在的確會想要跟勞動部一起來合作來探討來做超前的部署假設有些企業遇到這樣的狀況真的是屬實的話那我們該怎麼辦的確我們在討論這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5461.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5478.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
對啊部長其實你剛剛講沒有錯其實真的要超前部署你不能等到確實已經一堆人失業了你再來規劃要去做所以我就說居然專家學者有這一部分的評估有這一部分的隱憂勢必你在推動近年轉型確實有些 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5481.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5506.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
產業絕對會受到這些衝擊那所以勞動部他他們有去做這個報告那我們現在也是說希望針對這個報告的部分那我們環境部也希望喔能夠在這之前超前部署是不是針對我們有可能這些失業造成衝擊的產業像我們有收這個碳費是不是也應該去補助做一些人才培訓這一方面的訓練課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5508.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5528.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
對 包委員其實我們的綠領裡面就有一項是跟勞動部合作的那當然我必須說這份報告呢就僅供參考用這個就我們現在的這個政策的落實性可以當成我們治理性可行性不高啦這份報告但是我們很密切注意這個事情所以未來呢如果有碳費甚至我也跟洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5530.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5557.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
這個討論說我們是不是加大那個力道讓勞工朋友多一點增能的一個空間這個就是我們綠領在做的事情對因為他照這樣子來評估其實我們也擔心說萬一淨零轉型去做之後造成這些產業的衝擊那我們現在比較擔心就是說這些產業他其實到時候如果這些人才他要轉型的時候勢必他們的部分他們是屬於 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5558.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5586.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
因為已經就業可能10年以上那年齡一定都是比較高屬於中高年再加上這些產業其實整體它的教育程度來講都是比較低那我後來也看一些我們針對我們補助的重點像我們環境部跟工研院有在推動綠領人才培訓跟補助這些辦法好像重點都是放在30歲以下跟大專學歷以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5587.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5610.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
為主要對象那當然你們這個推動最主要目的是希望能夠把一些新血新血輪來加入這些行列那可是我們覺得說你加入新血輪當然勢必重要可是現有勞動力的這些轉型是不是我們應該也要有一些相關的措施去輔導他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5611.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5635.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
委員的提議是非常好目前就是我們會透過勞動部那個平台來討論這個事情因為說真的勞動部他的資源比環境部來對於勞工的輔導他們更了解怎麼幫助勞工那我們這邊就是屬於綠領的人才的培訓所以這個部分我們的確是已經約了時間近期就會來見面來談這個媒合的事情如何來合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5636.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5652.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
對啊所以那時候部長也有提到你像因為我們現在推動淨零轉型那勢必環境部勞動部跟經濟部這個跨部會的合作真的是很重要那你當然說那一部分那個專家學者勞動部他所做的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5653.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5670.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
當然可能是站在他立場去做一些評估但是我們也是擔心說勢必對這些產業多少一定會有受到相當的衝擊可能未必是他評估的這麼的嚴重但是這一部分也值得我們注意就是我們在培訓的部分不能把重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5671.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5690.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
都放在新血輪的加入而且這些年輕而且學歷高其實整體上他們在產業的就業率來講其實他的條件一定是比較好那我們現在就是擔心這些中高齡他轉型而且本身他的學歷並不是像 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5691.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5716.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這些新血輪你們現在補助的學歷這麼高那反而到時候他們要轉型就業成為綠領人才反而如果我們沒有去補助他們去培訓他們勢必對他們來講到時候轉型一定是有很大的問題那加上我們環境部有收這個碳費所以我們才想說是不是部長在針對碳費這部分來補助我們這些人才的轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5717.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5746.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
好謝謝委員的蠻好建議因為我們碳費明年才會收到啦然後那如果說未來從這個公正轉型的角度的確委員提到的一個特別是高齡或是學歷比較低或是年資很長的這個族群的確是我們可以來列入考慮在裡面等於是我們今年可以說是先開始先對年輕朋友那未來呢包含委員提的原住民新住民等等這個我們的確可以來納入考慮那我們也會跨部會例如說像 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5746.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5771.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
原住民其實就必須跟原住民委員會來談如何來媒合因為這部分我們今天會提出當然我們就希望未雨綢繆你不要等到一堆人失業的時候我們再來尋求這個解套方式那就太慢了所以剛剛部長也有看到所以我們希望目前我們環境部跟工研院推動的部分是屬於比較年輕高學歷的我們希望能夠針對這部分我們來研議擴大補助的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5775.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5795.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
就像我們原住民、新住民還有二度就業的婦女還有中高齡這些有可能面臨失業轉型的這一部分我們現在嚴厲來補助希望能夠針對綠領人才的培訓我們環境部也來出來協助我們勞動部甚至其他各部會來讓這個補助計畫能夠順利的來推動好沒問題委員的建議我們會考慮好謝謝部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5802.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5820.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
好 謝謝圖權級委員發言接下來請邱政軍委員發言好 主席好 我們一樣請彭部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5826.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5850.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
部長好上次跟部長討論過我們陸域風機新設的問題我現在發現我們後龍好望角這個地方那邊有21座的風機將在2027年會年滿20年現在廠商提出更新計畫更新計畫之後我聽說要加寬跟加高會差不多是現在的兩倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5851.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5859.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那周圍大概有229戶的居民會受到影響那這次的更新案居民反彈都非常大 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5861.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5887.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
環民第一次審查之後環民委員要求廠商量化說明我們風機噪音、震動、眩影對民宅還有敏感受體的影響及差異性還要強化減輕對策及檢討風機更新改建的位置跟數量但是居民是希望大風車可以滾出社區這部分環境部可以擋在第一線嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5888.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5905.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
因為這個是以前齁那個20年前可能是20年前弄的他那時候沒有環評啦所以現在其實如果他新蓋的重新再來那這個就要環評這個部分就會進到我們程序那也跟委員報告現在因為我們的環評委員對於這個陸域風機喔大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5908.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5935.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
五百公尺半徑五百公尺其實有影響到這個五百公尺內有建築物的都是很嚴格審查的所以包含了眩影、低頻噪音、震動等等這個我很放心如果有這樣的情況我們因為目前還有好幾個案例像這樣都非常難過非常難過當然我不能說限制說他不能申請但是非常難過一定要特別小心對啦因為這個對居民的影響非常大他們忍受了二十年 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5936.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5962.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那現在當然我們一直以來對於陸域風這個風機的設置本來現在就已經在做調整了那我希望環境部在這邊一定要做好嚴格把關的這個動作那我再來問就是說報導指出在2025年夏天拆下來的風機葉片會有累積的高度會有1050公尺接近兩座101大樓的高度那未來10年將有900隻的 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5965.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5979.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這個廢棄葉片退役是這樣嗎那這些東西又沒辦法回收那國外是一般是粉碎來掩埋那台灣土地這麼小垃圾現在都還沒有辦法處理那我們未來的處理方式會怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5981.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6006.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
報告委員其實現在當然有一些處理的方式因為當時對於管制並沒有那麼嚴格我們現在正在修相關的法例例如說支援循環的推動法我們希望下個會期送到立法院其實未來針對這樣的不管是太陽能或是風機它要預先的去做處理所以目前來說的話我們大概是可以把它變成透過水泥窯的燃燒變成一種低碳水泥來做使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6007.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6032.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
或是說其實他的纖維材料也可以作為一個建材所以他不應該是廢棄物啦已經有這個技術可以處理了已經有一個技術了對 因為他如果拿來 我覺得如果掩埋他也是 我們沒那麼多地方嘛那如果拿來燒 我們又擔心碳排然後還有一些空污的問題啦那這部分 現在我們以前20年前做的這些東西他確實已經找到這個回收的辦法 有這樣的技術就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6033.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6055.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那各位報告,現在我們已經有把一些葉片做一些試驗,然後去切片之後,然後送到水裡面去當作燃料或是材料那未來如果新設的這些材料,它會跟這個一樣還是說你們有規範說它一定要用什麼?是,那以後這些案場,它就要負起後面回收的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6056.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6059.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
方式上面我們還在討論後面一定要讓他在20年廢棄之後能夠把這些妥善的處理我們有限制他材質 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6070.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6091.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
因為這個風機它有一些它自己使用上的特性,因為它要能夠在選擇區域你們在審核的時候,我希望說現在已經20年前的這些材料你都有辦法它來做回收利用了當然我們希望也把這些東西列入,列入就是說未來在審核的標準的一個標準,可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6091.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6115.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
它現在是一種玻璃纖維啦所以它基本上對環境是無害的但是基本上如果它變成廢棄物如何處理那這個就是我們必須要去管制或關注的這個焦點因為我想因為我聽到說我們台電跟風電業者可能會申請這個延誼5到10年那這部分的標準是誰來審查是怎麼審查的風機延誼5到10年 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6120.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6130.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我們還沒有聽過風機演繹舞蹈目前沒有嗎?台電有在提?可能是能源署那邊如果是他們提,我們環境部立場是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6134.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6152.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
如果是風機的原因要看他是拆除以後是不是重新申請許可如果他沒拆除就繼續用啊他認為說他還可以用啊繼續用的話基本上我們是沒有在我們的環評的相關規定裡面去規範但是我們所知的因為現在科技的進步很多小的風機會拆除然後重新申請許可 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6153.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6175.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那他改成大的風機重新申請的這個風機的許可就會他如果研議他換一些材料你也看不出來換材料這種的就不是整資的這個風機的情況那這個就不是由我們來管理因為他當初申請的年限到了那如果到了又申請研議我現在在好奇就是說因為他可能還有些東西是可能還可以用的那但是居民在等他拆啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6176.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6201.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
對不對那你又突然演繹那我們環境部又沒有沒有一個也沒有也沒有介入去做一個審核的這個機制嗎完全都沒有跟委員報告因為就環評的部分因為環評是一個預防的一個機制所以我們管的通常都是一個新建一個新的案場那如果你是因為不管是風機或其他開發行為如果是因為零件要替換或是我覺得這樣啦我希望另外一個層次 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6201.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6228.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
研議的部分我希望環境部也能夠去參與好不好部長你再了解一下我再來了解一下謝謝委員建議那另外關於PFACE這個部分我們列了357種PFACE的化合物是有毒的化學物質那是做管制並沒有禁用歐盟是在2030年他就要淘汰整個PFACE類別我們會跟進嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6230.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6251.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
會跟委員報告,其實我們公告的物質都是跟著市的公約的公告期程他們禁用的部分,應該會有一個禁限用我們跟著他大概在一年多,我們國內也公告出來因為還要產業調查跟調整,所以我們都會follow這個公約來走所以他整個淘汰,我們整個就會拿掉?對 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6252.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6268.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那現在勒剛剛委員所提到的357那裡面是有競選用的那歐盟的本身因為他歐盟歐盟雖然是那個歐盟他雖然是私的跟我們公約的一個會員國不過他本身會再做寬一點的調查所以這個資料我們也都在收集 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6269.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6282.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
對 因為我現在比較好奇就是說我們現在一般產品頂多就是不含酸粉不含塑化劑對不對 我們有沒有標示什麼有沒有含環境荷爾蒙這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6282.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6307.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
有 這個就是在產品我們舉個例子就像大家會習慣我們有標章嗎 有這個標章嗎我們如果是有環保標章的就會按照我們的規範來走 這會給他都會給他那我們舉個例子就是大家關心因為以前的用途很廣因為像不沾鍋 食品包裝或衣服或化妝品等等這些都可能會有這些東西所以我是希望說我們能夠清楚標示給我們的消費者去選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6309.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6326.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
所以我們會來鼓勵業者那前幾天我去賣場其實看那個很多的不沾鍋都會貼都會有個標籤寫說不含PFOA或者是其他的梳化劑都會有現在慢慢的這業者的自主的一個標示對因為這個我想管的這個部會也很 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6328.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6345.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
衛福部也管環境部也管還有經濟部還有農業部所以我希望大家有一套標準能夠橫向的聯繫能夠統一讓我們消費者可以很清楚的就可以去辨識這樣好嗎是我們在跨部會小組來討論最後我再請教我們部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6346.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6372.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
我們那天到苗栗,謝謝部長到苗栗來關心我們苗栗的這個我們當時有提到一個叫循環園區,那部長這個計畫會有期程嗎?我們現在在爭取行政院的預算當中,如果爭取得到因為這個是我們近鄰推動的一個項目,那這個是明年的經費啦那也希望我們可以爭取得到,那當然這個就希望全台灣有一些像這樣的點 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6372.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6388.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那也謝謝委員因為那個土質廠這個例如說我們的營建廢棄物的處理因為苗栗有這樣的這個能力也很主動來做所以這個未來我是覺得如果配合的好的話我是覺得這個是一個蠻好的一個機會除了現在苗栗市的掩埋廠現在活化 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6389.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6413.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那另外現在就是循環園區的一個爭取啦我們來地方跟中央來一起合作那另外還有我們竹南它的粉化掩埋場的部分它那邊的場域也蠻大的嘛這個部長有考量嗎好這個我們來研究好不好因為這個還有一點點時間因為開始要做爭取經費然後後面的未來的這個施工或規劃都有一點時間那我們是樂觀啟程好謝謝部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6417.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6420.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
好 謝謝邱正軍委員 接下來請王育民委員發言謝謝主席 我們有請部長 請彭部長王委員好 部長好 部長我今天要跟你討論環評的議題 這個大 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6444.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6466.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
台電有一個大甲溪光明計畫 抽蓄水利的開發案這一個案子 請問部長你有所瞭解嗎我知道 他現在是在補正在審補正在審嗎這一個案子呢 這個環團已經站出來抗議了那主要是 大家可以看一下 他這一個案子呢 他是要透過炸山 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6467.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6470.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這個開挖這個整個隧道高達10公里然後去貫穿這個德基谷關這個兩座水庫那它位處的位置呢又在這個地震帶然後大家都知道這個中橫事實上它整個地質非常的敏感而且脆弱之前還曾經發生過2004年的七二水災當時水災發生的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6496.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6514.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
其實整個包括這個大甲溪沿線的青山電廠全毀德基天倫谷關發電廠也通通都遭到溪水的侵入那更不用說現在的中橫事實上它都還沒有雙向通車都是變道 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6514.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6517.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我曾經擔任過台中市的副市長也曾經到和平所以沿路這樣子上去坦白講我看到的是有點覺得觸目驚心就是那一帶的這個地質狀況的確是像環團所講的他的確是敏感而且脆弱但是今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6534.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6538.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
我們竟然號稱這個綠電是要在那個地方就是要去炸山這麼敏感脆弱的地方還要再炸山然後呢去標榜說我們發展出來的是綠電這個我要請教部長這樣子的一個開發案作為環境部你真的認為適當嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6559.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6577.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
包委員那個那天的環評會議據我了解不過那天不是我主持的因為還在初審當中那環評委員有提出斷層地質還有生態的問題所以不是只有環保團體有意見其實環評委員也有意見要他們補正說明再審所以這個其實是已經很清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6578.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6593.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
好我覺得這個案子這個環境部你要做好你的把關的角色因為在第一次的這個環評的意見裡面其實就已經很充分的說明了就是說要強化地質調查跟安全評估作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6593.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6622.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
但是呢坦白講在第二次的這個環評審查裡面好像針對這個部分並沒有太多的琢磨跟說明好像就直接忘記這件事情然後談的都是土石方管理放置的問題但是我認為最前端的整個地質調查跟安全評估這個才是重中之重站在環境部的角度如果今天有一個開發案 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6622.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6650.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
它是破壞環境而且難以回復這個問題本質才是最嚴重的土方那個是後續已經開發堆置的問題所以我要就教部長的就是說這個部分第一階段環評的結論為什麼在第二階段環評的時候這個這麼關鍵的地質調查報告反而不見了有啊 他現在進入二階二階的時候他就要加強這個地質的調查的結果所以的確是被要求要做這些事情的 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6651.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6674.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
但是他沒有提出來的時候怎麼可以進到二階呢就是說這個部分他有一個完整的地址調查跟安全評估的報告出來嗎因為一階的時候是要求這個部分是重點跟委員報告因為這個是屬於在地址敏感區所以依照地址法他本來就要做一些地址評估跟調查那這個是有放在他附入裡面那除了說委員有去審視這個附入的完整地址調查報告以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6675.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6682.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
我們環境部也會要求就是我們會委託一個專業的地質計事公會來提供第三方的意見然後公委員來做參考好這個部分我覺得是非常重要而且是環境部應該去把關的地方因為就這個案子來講他曾經在很早年提出來但是後來其實就已經停擺到2016年的時候是因為缺電了坦白講是因為缺電經濟部今天經濟部也有代表但是產業署不是能源署 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6705.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6732.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
經濟部行政院要求台電要再重新送這個計畫的那也就是代表是缺電的情況底下才啟動的但是這個跟我們所標榜號稱的綠電我覺得跟差太遠了你所謂的水利發電應該是運用自然的地形它可以達到這樣的一個條件你去發電這個我都非常贊成但你今天明明達不到這個條件你還要去炸山 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6733.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6752.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
你覺得仁定勝天還要炸山而且在這個地質脆弱敏感的地區炸山之後想要完成這個條件我覺得這個真的是很蠢的一個計畫 我必須這樣子講違反自然環境 破壞自然環境更重要的是它的發電量才多少 大家來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6752.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6767.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
他這樣子大費周章整個去開發花了好幾百億而且可能到2034年才會完成的這項計畫以為可以弄得人定勝天結果他的發電量原本規劃的才多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6771.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6778.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
368MW其實也才這樣而已那我覺得更離譜的是怎麼會環評大會裡面呢開完之後說哎呀你要擴大你的開發的規模從原來的368MW要增加到740MW有這種環評大會嗎是怎麼開的 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6790.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6794.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
為什麼可以有這樣的一個主張過去很罕見從來沒有看過我們開發量體是越小越好結果有環評大會開完之後怎麼會這樣子呢要求是要加大它的整個開發規模呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6804.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6810.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
其實這個案子因為是依法要進行二階的環評那二階的環評中間會有一個範疇界定的會議那範疇界定會議除了評估的項目跟範圍之外還有一個很重要就是要來討論替代方案所以在這個範疇界定會議的時候有委員有提出說你這樣子的一個開發計畫如果說你要進行開發你要不要考慮就是做規模的替代因為如果是要一次施工的話他希望你就 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6830.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6852.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
可以的庫容的一個範圍裡面去做一個最高的一個規模的一個評估但是這只是委員的建議那台電他也說他會回去評估所以他其實是依照飯頭界定委員的建議去評估因為就我們了解他其實像剛剛委員關心的乍三的問題因為他要開新設一個投水隧道那個10公里那不管你是368MW或者是610MW那都是要蓋那條隧道那既然都要蓋那條隧道委員說 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6858.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6880.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
你的這個開發是不是有可能在規模上提高請他們去評估但是並沒有說一定要他們接受但是現在好像這個就變成結論了而且也一直這樣子講我要講的是說你現在又破壞環境然後又是這樣的一個經費然後你其實換來的大概最多也是610MW的一個發電量然後會造成生態上面的耗竭就一去不復返 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6886.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6907.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
這樣子的一個開發案我真的覺得經濟部審審吧不要用破壞環境一方面告訴大家說不缺電然後一方面又想要破壞環境然後來換得這樣的一個發電量事實上經濟部你有很多的選擇今天經濟部有代表來雖然不是能源署是不是也上來回去一定要轉達是能源署是不是好 那能源署趕快上來這一個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6915.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6918.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我看錯 我以為今天是產業發展署 來 能源署上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6922.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6946.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
這樣的一個開發案是你們主導的而且我知道是由上面交代要台電去開發的是行政院的定調來這個我們能源署的代表這個案子剛剛其實環境部的態度也很清楚覺得你們這個其實對於生態的一個影響其實是非常大的恐怕會造成生態的耗竭你們這個案子還要硬推下去嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6948.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6968.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
謝謝委員的意見因為這個案子我想我們委員的建議我們會整體納入考量因為我在這邊給你一個具體的建議如果你真的缺電的話昨天立法院才剛通過河山廠他其實可以研議這個也是你的選項那河山廠的發電量二號街發電量多少來你說你知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6975.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6995.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
951MW我要讓各位看到的就是和三長二號機的演繹951MW不必炸山不必破壞也不會造成生態的耗竭而且立法院昨天已經通過了讓你經濟部可以去審慎的評估在安全的情況底下讓他可以發電這個就是你其中一個選項 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6997.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7023.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
你現在因為缺電特別是你夜間缺電所以你想辦法要去大甲溪又要去乍山然後要來弄一個你這個光明抽蓄水力發電你這個又耗時又破壞生態發電量又小經濟部你真的回去好好思考一下當你有選擇權的時候有沒有要一意孤行一定要破壞生態來達到你這樣的一個發電的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7024.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7038.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
謝謝委員的意見就是說我們在做整體的電力供需的時候一定會做全面的考量不管是對生態或是法規的規定那還是謝謝委員那委員的意見我們會做整體的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7038.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7062.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
好我希望今天可以把這個我在這邊質詢的意見帶回去我覺得整個政府的能源政策你要從國家長遠跟永續的角度來探討特別我們今天講的是環境部的議題我們絕對不接受你是用破壞生態炸山在地質敏感地區然後硬要去弄一個其實發電量也沒有很大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7063.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7089.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這樣的一個新的這個水利發電計畫這個違反了我們對於綠電的精神也違反了我們對於環境永續保護的精神所以我要求部長在這一個如果這個經濟部執意要繼續往下這個開發的時候我想你們在二階環評的時候你們就是真正可以為民眾就是守護住我們的整個環境永續的一個很重要的單位這個部分我希望部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7092.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7111.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
你這個把你的專業拿出來就是好好的嚴格的審議 好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝王委員委員會這邊宣告朱新泉 張偶瑋執行宣達結束我們休息十分鐘那接下來請黃秀安委員來做宣達謝謝主席 我們請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7121.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7144.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
黃委員好部長好 部長在去年你剛上任的時候那當時我也當召委那有針對我們垃圾的這個問題堆置的問題也有排一個專報那當時部長也非常關心那你自己也有到地方有下去看嗎那我想請教就是說從我們的那個露天的堆置垃圾量是 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7145.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7171.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
每一年每一年都一直在增加那我不知道說部長你從去年這樣看然後你有什麼樣的一個解決方式幫委員我們訂的一個計畫就是明年年底不要露天裸露因為露天裸露是讓附近大概有48個露天裸露的點的確附近的居民生活都很困難那個味道或是整個蒼蠅非常的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7171.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7197.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
所以我們先解決這個問題那因為我們大概在明年的這個焚化爐的量能可以起來了所以整個會有一點慢慢的平衡下來所以整個我們希望露天裸露解決然後不要有新的這個垃圾產生不要量能平衡其實這個問題就逐步的可以解決那部長你剛剛有特別提到就是全台灣48座的這個垃圾山那你是希望明年就沒有這種垃圾露天裸露的狀況嗎裸露的這個狀況那你怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7201.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7229.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
第一個是一定要有一些復土第二個是打包甚至說我們要再協調一下這個處理的量能夠處理得更好請其他縣市幫忙處理嗎有的是其他縣市那有的要自己去解決像桃園就要自己去盡量自己要去解決這個事情那我們基本上跟每個縣市因為每個縣市的狀況不大一樣所以我們基本上一個一個去跟他們談那目前大家都統一明年會一起來完成解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7230.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7253.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
好那我們是期待因為去年問題然後到今年然後現在變成明年那我們希望說能夠逐年把它解決啦另外我想請教就是說如果我們以目前全台灣27座的這個垃圾焚化爐來處理家戶垃圾那我想請教部長如果說處理家戶垃圾27座焚化爐如果互相調度的話你覺得這樣量能夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7254.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7278.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
因為現在的這個垃圾粉化爐是屬於地方政府在管理那當然啦理論上的量能是夠的但是他必須要經營他會去燃燒失業廢棄物也排擠了這個我們家庭廢棄物的這個量能的確這個就是一個過去的問題但是這個問題是地方的失誤去做處理我舉例例如說桃園他們也燒了很多失業廢棄物他們裸露的也蠻多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7279.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7289.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
當然他們說應該將來解決可是他們自己都沒辦法解決這個問題所以基本上我是覺得第一個整改的速度在未來一兩年內會陸續的完成我們垃圾的問題應該在未來這幾年可以解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7292.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7310.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
好 那我們看到我們所有的這個27座的焚化爐其中有20座都已經超過20年了所以它這個燒的這種效率也許沒有那麼高那我想請教就是說以目前我們的垃圾就是那個熱脂 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7311.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7332.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
熱值都非常的高所以也可能造成我們垃圾焚化爐燒的這個效率沒有那麼好以致於很多的這個垃圾可能就堆置那我想請教就是說剛剛部長有提到可能會逐年就是裸露的這種狀況可能會逐年減少那這個我們是從去年 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7333.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7352.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
開始關心那部長也真的非常關心也有實際到地方去看那我們對你有很大的期待那確定就是說希望這些裸露的狀況能夠有所改善因為中部地區其實也有很多這個垃圾山那可能不定時偶爾就會有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7355.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7374.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
火災火燒山的這種狀況發生所以如果可以將這個垃圾裸露的這個狀況如果可以解決的話我覺得也可以改善這個垃圾山附近居民的這個生活品質那尤其有很多垃圾山就鄰近著學校 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7375.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7386.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
這個狀況真的如果可以解決的話也可以一併讓孩子們在上課的時候也不要每天都聞到那個臭味尤其是夏天的時候真的那個味道真的是非常非常的難聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7405.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7422.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
會更多等於是明年的數字會更好看那我也想請教部長因為我們目前的這個垃圾焚化爐除了燒這個交互垃圾那有一部分也會燒失業廢棄物那這個失業廢棄物他們所收的這個價格可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7423.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7445.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
跟這個非自己轄內的這個廢棄物的話這個價格還要高嘛那我想請教就是說像有一些縣市比如說堆置的這個垃圾他自己真的確實是沒辦法去處理那我剛剛有問部長嘛如果這些這幾座27座的垃圾焚化爐如果純粹來燒我們的這個家戶垃圾應該是足夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7452.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7466.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
如果是這樣子的應該是足夠的那有沒有什麼樣的方式就是說當然如果說各縣市他要去燒這個一般的失業廢棄物來講因為這個收入可能會 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7467.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7488.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
可能會更好可能會更高那中央這邊除了可能有一些緊急狀況可以做調度的話那其他好像你們也沒辦法去調度其他縣市的焚化爐去做這個燒這個垃圾的這種情形那未來的話有沒有可能就是說我們環境部可以做一個調配 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7489.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7514.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
好就是說如果你目前27座焚化爐而且就是都已經20年以上了其實我覺得那個效率可能也可能會越來然後可能又會碰到稅休的狀況那是不是有可能未來透過修法或者其他的方式我們環境部也可以去做這樣的一個垃圾的一個調配針對我們的一般的這個家庭的這個廢棄物 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7516.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7540.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
報告委員第一個是說我們的調度只針對沒有氛化爐設備處理的縣市會幫忙做調度例如說南投等等那大多數的縣市因為他們自己要這樣燒因為他基本上會採取促餐的方式或BOT的方式能夠獲得民間的裁員所以他才會去燒四葉非七五這個我們都尊重啦但是過去的體制就變成這個樣子了 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7541.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7570.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那未來呢我也贊同委員的觀點我們未來是希望說不是說我們要興建廢棄物而是說我們希望全循環的流向的這個處理例如說有一個園區它可以從這個源頭到最後末端都可以很好的處理這個希望我們在台灣能夠設幾個地方自己有自己的量能把這個產業扶持起來這個是我們中長期的一個目標所以目前我們大概也跟行政院提出一個相關的計畫所以希望明年可以爭取到預算能夠來做這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7571.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7592.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那部長我們剛剛講那個後端的處理那我們這個源頭減量其實確實也是非常的重要那我看到就是說你們的預算就是這個大部分花了這個十幾億在處理垃圾那這個源頭減量的部分預算跟這個處理垃圾相差二十幾倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7593.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7620.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那我因為在地方我有看到好多議員在質詢就是說我們資源回收的那個價格其實不是那麼高那我在這邊是不是也有可能就是說環境部這邊針對源頭減量的這個預算是不是也可以逐年增加那我如果可以在源頭減量的話那我是不是就未來處理垃圾的這個經費就可以減少嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7623.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7650.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那垃圾 製造垃圾的這個狀況就會減少嗎所以我不知道說這個環境部針對這部分就是有關這個源頭減量的這個經費是不是未來會有所提升對 包圍這個我們自己的預算這塊源頭減量是我們的重點就這個就是循環經濟那我們會增加不過地方的這個不見得就會增加因為地方有些縣市會重視有些縣市不大重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7651.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7670.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
所以這個地方我們還要因地制宜能夠來鼓勵他們能夠增加這樣的預算那部長我想請教就是說我們這個處於處理的其實我發現有一些就是處於處理其實不是那麼的確實 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7672.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7696.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那這個也會造成我們焚化爐的那個壽命可能有時候就是會減短那你怎麼樣去針對這個廚餘廚餘的回收或者廚餘的處理你們環境部這邊會怎麼跟地方這邊來配合我覺得這應該是一個很重要因為有時候我們會看到如果說這個廚餘沒有他可能就直接丟到垃圾車裡面去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7698.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7723.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
現在我們觀察有兩種方式一個是有些縣市像屏東或台南他們鼓勵補助一些廚藥機整個就處理掉我們也在觀察他們使用的效果如何到底有沒有會造成一些負面的效益另外一個就是我們有開始在研究黑水盲它是不是可以蒐集出來用黑水盲因為黑水盲未來它也有一些SARF航空永續燃料用油這樣的一個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7724.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7740.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
所以我們現在是希望找到一些好的方式可以找到一些方向我們就接下來就大力的去推所以現在有看了幾種一個方案我已經提到的就是現在台灣遇到的一個問題因為如果廚藝不好好處理拿去焚化爐燒那這個會影響到焚化爐的這個處理的量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7742.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7769.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
所以我覺得說應該也要盡快因為我們在去年的時候委員會也有去有去考察去看那個黑水盲那確實它真的應該這個效能應該還不錯所以有的公所他們自己本身有在做那其實我覺得好像推廣的不是那麼全面如果說還不錯的話其實我覺得應該要從環境部自己本身來做推動好 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7771.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7782.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
好不好?好,謝謝,我也在建議。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。提醒部長,文化爐的調度權,我們是當時有修,給你們環境部做處理。好,接下來請蘇昭偉。第28條。 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7801.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7810.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
好,謝謝趙偉好,我們請彭部長還有台電,台電有來喔?台電?台電沒有沒有台電好,蘇貞昭經濟部周副署長周副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7829.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7855.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
部長我跟海洋經濟部我今天請教你們四件事情第一件事就是海上的大風車這個如火如荼我有一個朋友是在開那個船的船長很冷 冷氣的那我都認知啦不知道不對的話你幫我糾正路上的風車差不多有四百多隻現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7858.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7876.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
200隻左右,路上大概200隻左右那有幾隻壞掉?幾隻是好的?多少?我去專兵工業區,一堆都壞掉了,那是真的壞的嗎?你要不要回答一下? |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7877.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7902.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
請能源署回答海上的風機目前的狀況都有在持續運轉中都有在維修?我說兩百多機有幾機壞掉?陸域風機的話因為有些確實有風箱還有持續運轉的部分在運轉的狀況我們可能需要再清點一下再給委員因為台電的人跟我講,一吃的成本一億多 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7905.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7912.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
他說一個颱風掃下去就差不多會有損壞二三十八那修一支好幾千萬所以那個是很CP值很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7928.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7936.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
好啦 那這個海上的更誇張 你知道一支多少錢嗎一支14億 14億喔要採幾支 本來要採幾支 本來要採幾千支喔有這麼多嗎 我每次聽到這個都背脊花涼這怕什麼就我們死的 我們的怕什麼就我們死的 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7953.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7972.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
德國人也來,美國人也來,我跟你們講,一斤十四億,一千隻,天文數字啊那他產他的利息,他是貸款嘛,那我們的行庫用低利貸給他嘛那他的投資報酬率一定是超過他的銀行貸款,有利潤,他才繼續幹嘛那現在聽說跑掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7978.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8000.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那跑掉是好事還是壞事?博電你說你怎麼說現在其實第一個是說這個的確台灣的這個有幾家他們這個也有來找我們環境部抱怨抱怨了一些事情那當然啦因為當時的開發不過這個是經濟部的工作啦還是你們要回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8002.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8013.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
我記得以前第一次簽約的一度電視好像五塊七啊多少嘛後來就降到五塊降到四塊多那降到四塊多你就不合啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8014.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8034.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
沒有他現在他要自己直接找買主自己自己找買主那這個耗損率應該很高現在有幾隻在做跟委員報告一樣現在大概379隻那我目前的裝置容量大概3G左右那到2025年大概是5點多G那初估應該是500到600隻不會到1000隻因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8039.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8054.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
裝置容量會隨著技術的進進它的容量單次的容量會越來越大所以這個支數會變比較小再者跟委員報告我們剛建好的這幾座風機都非常順利地運轉中目前經歷了幾次颱風跟地震都沒有問題而且是直接掃過去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8065.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8088.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
因為我不太記得,大概是前年去年都有這樣台風來的時候,他是把它關掉,還是自己會關?他超過一個風速,差不多中度台風等級,他就會鎖在那邊鎖住,保護他自己所以就不太容易被吹斷,這個一吹斷就完蛋啊這是什麼修理啊?這一支修理,我看一支14億,修理我看要五六億 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8091.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8114.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
就是委員這邊跟您報告一下就是我們當初在推動離岸風電的時候其實針對台灣特殊的狀況就是颱風跟地震的部分我們有請標檢局特別製作了一個標準那就是在台灣設的風機都要符合這個標準才能設所以呢基本上我們的風機的規格其實比歐洲 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8114.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8122.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
再多延一點點然後再來就是這個業者的部分目前就是我們領選到的業者就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8123.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8149.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
離岸封建是先示範潛力然後再區塊嘛到目前為止都是潛力的長子的業者那目前的業者都很順利的在往前走那我們希望在這個預定潛力長子的時間都可以完成那我們也真的很順利在走那再稍微小小的這個宣傳一下我們去年的風機累積的裝置量其實是全世界第五 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8150.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8152.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
你講話聽得到嗎?你講話聽得到嗎?你講話聽得到嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8156.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8182.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
靠近一點靠近一點好因為我看到的風氣我到處都有去看漢堡 德國 北邊 北海內蒙古我們都去看了我們也是有在做功課的那個是風長穩定 緯度高沒有颱風地震也相對少的地方他們的風力發電的成本成本很低 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8185.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8191.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
都用不完那我們這邊東北季風台灣海峽又淺風又急然後颱風又多 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8197.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8214.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
這個採風機那麼貴 受得了嗎我一直到現在 還有這個大大的疑問那你們的目標是500隻 1000隻還是到現在300多 增加到500多這樣很挺外商跑掉了 現在變成中鋼 台電自己在賣是做得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8227.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8240.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
跟委員報告就是我們潛力場直到明年之前的這個廠商基本上呢廠商都沒有跑掉而且都在進行中那我們台電的案場也在施工中目前台電有兩個案場 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8241.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8259.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
第一個案場是示範案場,它其實已經完工,已經在運轉了那第二個案場是潛力場址,目前在施工中,那目標是今年會完工好,OK,好,那謝謝那第二個我要請問部長,那你們可不可以回答一下我們現在的聯席要怎麼做? |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8263.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8287.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
就沒有以前惡佛、惡力甲烷、惡佛勢力甲烷等等那就是汙染嘛那後來就改成現在的那個什麼就是R124還是R125因為惡佛、惡力甲烷以前是說它不會分解然後它可以飄到大氣層會把臭氧層都燒掉打破洞對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8288.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8296.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
佛力燙化物所以現在改成這個就沒問題了嗎?R14對R14還是R什麼?R134R14吧多少?R14吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8305.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8325.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
沒有浮氯碳化物來來來現在我們就是跟委員報告浮氯碳化物我們就是依照蒙特樓議定書管制然後他有現用逐步到禁用那他會用這個HFC來取代那我們也會依蒙特樓議定書的時程來管制好那再來今天要特別提那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8327.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8350.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
PFAS嘛是Perchloroalkyl Substance這個在醫界是聽到都要嚇死的以前都疾病好那這個東西已經用一段時間了已經到處都摻這個東西那怎麼今年去年才開始又熱起來是什麼原因 柏定 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8351.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8380.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
是有人想要賺這條錢還是沒有這個其實在2008年就施德克某公約就有了啦2008年我們其實稍微慢一點點但是其實就很努力的去希望有管制所以去年我們就抱怨了提出一個管制的一個方案挂部會一個計畫啦所以的確是有管制公告來進行那管制因為這個東西好像吃到人體裡面差不多一兩年會排泄嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8381.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8395.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那不容易排出那排泄之後在大環境中是不太容易分解嘛我經常去看我去培養的細菌,譬如益生菌或乳酸菌我就把它分解可以分解塑膠,可以分解水,這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8401.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8429.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我在想應該有可能有一些硫化物的細菌它是可以分解無積物的喔所以這道都叫新生物學加下去不然的話這個是無解嘛那現在它是佛皆嘆嘛就是我們講的會產生這些毒物啊我們等一下吃便當那個便當裡面的這種薄膜那個就是這種凍凍的不然的話便當坐在那邊就燙了那一定沒辦法就把它解開 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8430.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8443.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
現在既然你便當放在那裡,我們吃一杯,我吃,劉建國、趙偉也吃,吃一吃,吞吞下去,如果放多久,信是跑到食物裡面更多,我也不知道,沒人去檢查,吃一吃下去,他死就死,不死就死, |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8450.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8473.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
所以你這什麼是要安保物不是 根本報告 其實公約有禁用的物質像PFOA PFOA是那些它就不能用到這個食品保采區所以國內我們也都是按照這樣來講所以現在如果有的部分是是沒有禁用的物質放進去的但是因為PPS是一個很大的家族有些已經開始禁用了 有些還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8474.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8495.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我跟你講喔,我朋友在做那個晶片的,他們說這種東西,他佛去接矽控,接出來就是什麼咚咚的,我們那個手機上面什麼薄膜那個是非常非常非常貴的,全世界四家工廠在做,台灣根本不會做,所以那種東西就是晶片在用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8496.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8524.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
對不對 沒錯吧那個有沒有毒性 那當然有啊所以這個科技的進步是很可怕的那我們環境部在跟著後面跑那歐盟講常常看到東西就訂了一大堆那我們就跟著走我們永遠都在跟著後面跑啦那科技界一直在發展我們這個也沒辦法所以你現在訂這個我們不可以贏我們現在每天都在吃在贏 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8525.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8542.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那有什麼辦法跟委員報告就是不能用的我們禁掉以後他就不會用進去那當然他會有替代產品像我們碳比如說九個碳八個碳慢慢管下來管到六嘛四個碳就還沒有列管因為他在這個危害的分析方面還 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8543.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8564.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
那我們那個便當那個膜那個自己看那個膜也不是都只做這個因為他還有其他的塑膠膜這些是可以在食品等級可以用的那部分是沒有問題啦但是對於我們已經禁用的話就不能再去用在這邊好那最後的問題最後是一個剛剛那個圖前期很多人都問那個綠林綠林你現在村人這麼年輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8568.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8576.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那是要做什麼?他很多工作,現在兩萬兩千個工作機會,等著大家去工作是要去輔導?還是要抓人?沒有啦,這個是幫助大家走到未來的工作機會啦當然剛剛那個圖先生說的,圖委員說的勞工,比較勞的這個我們會再跟勞動部來討論想辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8594.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8606.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
你不要找一些高階的 有那個程度高他本來就比較好找套路啊啊現在老的 現在比較基層的 要訓練到有什麼初級的還可以到中級 這樣可以改觀我們的就業啊這比較重要吧好 謝謝委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8623.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8628.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
你已經未來就是綠巨人啦來,好,休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9327.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9343.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
好 休息時間到我們繼續開會接下來請林淑雯委員來做詢問謝謝張偉 是不是請我們彭部長來 請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9350.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9362.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
林委員好部長你今天的這個PFAS管理這個行動計畫和環境荷爾蒙的管理計畫我想大概我都問過了那我也要求了那你今天應該是很開心 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9365.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9383.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
就我個人所質詢過的我也要來肯定你今天是等於是做球給你我不敢不敢因為我記得我5月21號來委員質詢我這個花了半個小時那完了之後我就很努力的跟同仁在談那我們也努力想要做出一些成績 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9384.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9407.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
做出成績是最重要我們質詢的目的不是為了上報 列為紀錄質詢的目的是為了改變是那在這裡我必須要肯定你的改變譬如說在今年的5月13號你們公告修正了列管毒性化學物質及運作管理事項公告抱歉我是不是看錯了沒有 沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9411.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9424.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
Anyway 就是說把擴大更多的列管進去然後在飲用水上面呢你們也訂出了水污染防治措施及檢測申報管理辦法在排放水的時候要監測 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9428.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9432.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
然後在廢水的部分有監測在飲用水上面也有一些本來就有的納管然後再做更多的監測在環境監測上面你們去年年底就已經完成了國內15條河流底泥和雨堤的 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9443.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9466.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
你的採樣分析然後完成了淨水廠的檢測然後掌握了這個土壤和地下水PFAS的濃度的趨勢這個都是我當初要求的但是呢我的意思是說我們要的就是說具體的改變在那裡不要像食藥署食藥署今天報告在那裡食藥署署長又不能夠來就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9468.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9488.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
署長你講這個笑死人了 你聽聽看你自己怎麼聽下去人家質詢完是要你做改變然後你的法規要改要納管然後你今天有委員質詢你說你訂出標準了嗎你的食品容器訂出標準了嗎你說我繼續研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9490.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9507.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
口頭上你這樣講然後你的書面報告說什麼對環境部公告禁用的百項的PFAS物質本部會宣導會宣導食品包裝容器的這個容具的業者不得使用宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9510.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9522.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
報告委員 這邊環境部公告508項不能用其實就是禁止使用我們在按照食安法使用的話我們會按照財閥物的部分是你的部分我也質詢過啦就衛福部我們也質詢過 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9526.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9545.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
食品包裝包材禁止使用PFAS的期程規劃在哪裡PFAS的食品風險評估在哪裡在食品的監測計畫裡面食品受到這些污染或是因為包裝包材受到污染那你的監測計畫是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9548.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9558.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
你不可以說PFAS是我的專業我會全力以赴然後你到立法院來我諮詢過了你們業務單位都知道到立法院來說我們會宣導你到這裡來只有剩下宣導一種功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9564.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9569.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
你的政府做到最後只叫做宣導你覺得這什麼政府 這什麼食藥署署長你的專業 你的專業又如何當你的專業不能成為政策不能成為法規 不做任何的改革你的專業不好 不好署長 你的專業是要來服務人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9586.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9612.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
現在是在這裡我有同樣的諮詢過兩個部門諮詢完人家部長他們該改的法規該納管的物質該訂的期程該做的監測人家在報告裡面寫我幾年幾月幾日我做了什麼我改了什麼法規你今天你實要屬你的報告書面報告在這裡你只說了一句本部會繼續宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9614.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9643.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
宣導其他講的都是廢話這立委也會講的廢話這個叫政府喔謝委員我們508項因為昨天環境部這邊特別有公告357項所有的508項在食物包裁的部分我們全面禁止使用如果使用就是違反食安法的第16條我們現在要問你你們食品包裁禁止使用你公告在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9646.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9652.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
毒性化學物質以外那現在已經在使用的在怎麼樣你有去抽測有去檢測有去監測那些業者都知道嗎我們便當盒你有抽測過他們是不是還在用你知道嗎每天買的早餐炸薯條炸薯餅當初我們質詢的時候就跟你講連大的麥當勞連其他的通通都不標準都還繼續在用你說你禁用他們還繼續在用 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9675.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9696.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
謝謝委員這邊的提醒我們其實今年度我們特別也針對食品跟食品器材的包裝容器的部分我們做了PFOS的相關調查那涉事風險評估我們一定會調查盡速的把這項我現在要問你你什麼時候告訴我們說你公告禁止使用公告在哪裡你把幾年幾月幾日公告什麼法規你唸給我聽一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9699.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9718.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
這邊跟委員報告我們就帶回去我們積極的研議啊 謝謝還在研議喔一定會積極辦理研議你沒有公告全部禁止使用啦在這裡還可以直接睜眼瞎說然後有公告禁止使用的有沒有用不知道啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9720.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9735.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
環境污染 間接進入身體食品包材 包裝 直接吃下肚哪個比較嚴重當然是衛福部 當然是食藥署管理的是重中之重而委員 我 至少我本人也質詢過 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9737.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9758.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
沒好啊 質詢過又如何 沒好所以今天在這裡檢驗一個行政部門我是拿環境部來給你看人家的書面報告是怎麼寫你的書面報告是怎麼寫一看就知道不當一回事好 謝謝 署長請回我現在要再問 再問部長另外一個問題合一合二合三 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9762.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9775.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
部長你今天有接受採訪合一合二合三昨天修法了要重啟可以重啟重啟要不要做環評我再給你一個回答的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9777.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9799.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
報告委員因為過去其實按照環評法的開發行為實施環境影響評估的細目跟認定標準29條第一項所以目前來說的話如果是新建添加機組工程或是核子反應設施的廚藝要環評但是目前的這個規定的話既有的核能電廠運轉執照換發或展延它其實是不需要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9802.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9818.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
你不知道既有執照到期換發或展延這個在最高行政法院判決過這個當然是需要這個不是就權力的延伸因為他這一張執照就是40年40年以後你還要再繼續給他這個叫新權力的賦予 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9831.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9851.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
新權力的賦予當然要重啟還平更何況他過去40年一次都沒有做過所以你現在應該要做什麼你知道嗎如果根據最高行政法院的判決你應該要把重啟 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9854.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9859.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
納入到開發行為應實施環境影響評估的細目及範圍的認定標準為什麼當初沒有做因為做夢也沒有想到有人會拿核電廠老舊不堪的核電廠還來開玩笑說可以重啟大家都做夢都沒想過你知道國際在評估一個核電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9881.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9901.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
他的風險評估他用的是U型理論他最容易發生核災就是在剛開始的U的剛開始還有使用期限的後半段的最後最後中間運轉的中間是最穩定的所以不管山泥島福島車諾堡就是這個理論最危險的 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9905.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9934.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
而今天不是什麼抽完零件更新不是什麼保養就可以解決很多是沒有辦法再更新的而他們要開玩笑也沒關係他們要拿核災來開玩笑但你你不可以在這裡隨便說不用還平憑什麼說不用還平他的執照40年他的權利已經到齊了40年沒有做過任何還平 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9935.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9950.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
現在大家都以為要除役了他說要重啟重啟 我現在再跟你溝通一個概念再講一遍這個是新權力的賦予絕對不是舊權力的延伸 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9953.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9976.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
這樣你聽得懂嗎?聽得懂在法理上是這樣子?對其實過去這一年我也跟我同仁探討這個問題我也的確覺得是蠻奇怪的因為以前沒有還平那如果重啟要還平竟然是按照現有還平法規不用還平所以委員這個部分我想我回去之後再跟我同仁或是找一些律師專業的朋友這個爭執啊在我們修礦業法的時候就談過 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9981.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10003.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
修跨越法的時候就說我國家特許權給你20年20年重新審核你的之後到底是就權力直接延伸繼續核定只能允許只能繼續給你繼續延長還是說這是一個新權力的賦予我可以準博通通都可以不是只有准許一個選項 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10005.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10020.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
後來就是這樣子明定在新修的礦業法裡面這個在法理上的論辯很久絕對不是第一次所以我才告訴你是最高行政法院的判決就是這樣子寫了 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10023.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10033.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
所以你們內部的人如果告訴你說這個是依法無據的免還品的那我要告訴你這是胡說八道的好 謝謝那我先來講我會來進行這個探討研究給我一點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10038.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10060.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
我希望你今天的採訪回去應該要再想一下是不是應該重新再思考一下絕對不是就權力的延伸所以新權力的賦予所有一切都要重跑一遍如果要重啟的話那一定肯定是要還平的沒有那種不用還平的好 謝謝委員 謝謝這樣子幾分了 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10065.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10078.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
因為我的質詢都還沒有開始因為我今天的質詢都還沒有開始他說我超過了那我下一次再來好了因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10083.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10099.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
因為剛才那兩個問題很重要雖然不是我今天本來要諮詢的目標因為今天的題目我已經都講過了問過了那部長也做了一些改進了也做了一些改革了所以我就提一下但是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10101.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10103.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
還平的事情,核電廠,老舊核電廠要重啟,絕對需要還平 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10128.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10136.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
好謝謝主席也謝謝林淑英委員謝謝頭不是很好請多保重那我們就麻煩副部長副部長來謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10142.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10161.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
王偉豪部長好今天針對這兩個主題來跟部長做一些討論包括綠營人才的培訓還有就是有關於環境荷爾蒙對台灣民眾的影響最後會稍微談到其實我們很擔心環境荷爾蒙 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10161.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10174.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
對我們台灣女性尤其在乳癌的部分真的是很值得我們關心我們開始針對這個綠齡人才的部分那今天的部長報告裡面也針對綠齡人才的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10175.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10202.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
不管是在量或是在未來的一些教育方面多的琢磨所以我們想要再特別的了解看看針對這樣的人才我們在各領域上面有哪一些麻煩這個部長再加強的地方目前環境部一共有盤點了12項的這個領域在過去8年裡面需要提出有超過1.5萬個人的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10203.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10231.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
在各個領域裡面其中醫療保健跟環境衛生業是佔了第六個需求他每一年需要有2170以上的這個人才培育的這個需求那其實各個領域都有這樣的需求的同時我們也希望了解說目前這個滿足的這個佔比差不多會多少那未來針對這些如果佔比還有需要加強的部分有什麼樣的方案可以讓這樣的需求可以充分的滿足 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10233.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10250.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
報告委員因為我們這個因為過去這個算法有一些所謂的職場的專家教授他有作為一些推估可是那個推估並沒有真實的去找到到底幾個人在那個產業去做工作那我其實之前看到那個數據我都覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10251.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10263.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
那個數據很不實在啦所以我們去年就用一個做法就直接拿人力銀行的WANTED就是說上面有實際上的工作的職缺然後有多少例如說剛剛委員說的這個電子資訊跟軟體半導體業它是最多的4300人就是它現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10270.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10288.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
掛在上面要求的就4300個人在那個地方等著大家去去去申請這個工作所以基本上這個我們認為這個是比較務實知道這個狀況但是真實在這個產業裡面他有多少人在工作我們目前還不知道那我們未來呢會努力的想要去得到這個答案那這樣會更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10289.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10311.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
是因為我們也針對這個問題請教過國環院就是國家環境研究院國環院的給我們的答案是說有需求不代表未來所需要的從業人數所以這個到底這個需求還有直接在從事這個從業人數之間如何達到好的平衡這個也是未來要麻煩貴部除夕來 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10312.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10335.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
處理的部分那我們也比較擔心的就是說因為各行各業他的領域可能會不一樣當然他有基本的需求就好像一個通財通勢教育一樣可是不同的領域的時候他可能會針對於這個需求必須要有比較特殊的培育那目前我們所了解的就是大部分的這些教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10336.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10353.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
培育聯盟的架構之下是由國環院來統一提供教材那這個算是比較屬於整合式的而且是算是比較通財式的那針對不同的領域不知道後續的處理有沒有其他的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10355.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10370.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
謝謝王委員我們是第一波事實上應該是第二波我們第一波是我們自己國安院自己辦那第二波就是跟32個大學做聯盟合作那剛剛委員講我們現在叫通採就是一般領域都可以施用的那下一步我們現在就要掛加值課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10370.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10396.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那加值課程有像我們最近跟醫療部分因為醫療比較特別所以他們有些特殊的需要我們就另外一個package去做加值那或者像碳補儲碳補存就是各個領域需要的專業人員我們就是第一個搭配那第二個是各部會有一些比如說金融人員他有各自的獨立課程所以我們到時候會各部會合作之後有需要開我們加值課程我們會掛在我們的綠領人才這個聯盟裡面讓他去發揮他擴散的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10396.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10413.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
好 謝謝劉院長這方面的說明 也因為這個醫療院所真的是不是說他有特別到多特別 可是我們也知道其實醫療本身關乎的就是人民的健康還有這個醫療的照護 所以他對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10414.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10440.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
這個這一類的領域的這些需求會還是會有一些不同所以我們在上個禮拜二也針對在總諮詢的時候也跟部長討論說那這部分是不是要有一些策略跟不同的考量我想第一點跟第二點部長之前也說明了非常的清楚那針對醫療機構的特殊性我們理解就是在這個醫院要做好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10441.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10469.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
有品質的這個醫療服務還有很多需要不斷電的措施不管是在加護病房的這些呼吸器啦或者是在開大房過程當中所碰到的一些需要有特殊的這種情形之下那將來有沒有機會來提供比較屬於專案型的這個ASCO的方式來協助醫院同時在做醫療服務做這種很特殊需求之下還有在接能之間如何取得好的平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10471.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10495.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
因為這個ASCO醫療特性我們是跟經濟部合作我們是負責私立醫院經濟部有負責公立醫院大的私立醫院的部分我們現在是由環境部我們循環署免費的提供這個ASCO所以我們額外挪錢出來做這個事情目前預計到7月底可以完成33個場域來做這個事情但是我知道這個是屬於一個比較大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10496.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10520.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
大的用電比較大的這個醫院啦中小型的目前還沒有我們是先抓大的私立醫院我們有環境部來負責那至於說公立醫院像像台大榮總等等的那個就有經濟部他們來做協助好雖然說他只佔全國這部分的淨零未來4.6%可是畢竟如果這方面沒做好而且是這麼特殊的這個行業的需求之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10521.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10538.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我們還是期待能夠透過環境部的努力把這個該做的事情做到一個好的程度那再過來就是有關PFAS的這個處理的方式我們從今天部長的報告裡面也知道大家針對這種環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10540.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10563.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
在不得已之下會受到的這些污染 而且這是非常惰性就是幾乎他可能好幾千年幾乎都無法去消除他對環境影響的這些分子 如何能夠有效來處理那部長在這個報告裡面有提到這個PFAR的主要作為就是包括有這個源頭管理環境檢測還有環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10567.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10588.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
監測以及相關技術的研發等等那這部分尤其是對於這個霧泥的這個進化我們如何能夠有效的去改變它對環境在這個已經造成的影響之下如何能夠去改善這個土質啊或者是相關環境的影響那這部分有沒有相關的議題正在研究中 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10589.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10606.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
跟委員報告尤其是水質或者是放流水那還有地下水現在目前都有一些改善的技術在研究當中國際上對這方面也都在持續的在做研究我們也都在收集這方面的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10607.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10624.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
的確它是一個很困難的問題所以就是說為什麼在世界廢水裡面的標準全世界各國現在目前還訂不出來因為它的處理技術也好或者後面的這個應該說處理完之後還要再處理所以這裡是還在持續我們會來 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10625.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10639.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
就是有它的困難的挑戰所以才是給我們一個機會所以我們有看到說黑水盲其實黃協會方委員剛剛在質詢的時候有提到相關如何能夠透過黑水盲這樣的生物 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10640.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10664.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
來幫助我們台灣的環境的改善那這個是成大的一個碩士生的一個研究他們透過黑水盲希望能夠有效來減低這個污泥裡面PFAS的這個濃度那他們的初步研究的確也看到一些成果所以很期待不管是他像黃委員所提到用在處理各方面的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10665.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10693.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
透過生物技術的再利用那也希望這部分也有機會能夠不管是跟農業部或是相關部會可以共同來研究相關未來這個有關於黑水盲對台灣的這方面的幫助是我們來納入後面的一個評估是好再麻煩這個這邊持續來關注那這種河川底泥的採樣那個相關的標準我們目前看到就是會 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10695.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10712.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
從2001年到2010年好像有降低的趨勢可是降低的趨勢到什麼程度目前是沒有辦法看到很詳細的資料那可不可以提供本席相關的資料在一個月給我們做一個參考是 我們有留步調查的資料提供給委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10712.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10729.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
OK好那再過來就是有關於環境惡夢的部分我們知道環境惡夢對台灣民眾的影響是蠻明顯所以希望能夠納入這個本土健康的建設跟流行病學的了解那這邊有一個論文可以提供大家的參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10731.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10751.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
臺灣的這個癌症尤其是在乳癌的部分它的發生率還是在上升當中對民眾健康的影響其實是很明顯那臺灣女定乳癌比較特殊的就是它相對是比較年輕的相較於國際歐美國家是年輕的10歲左右那似乎 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10752.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10775.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
有環境荷爾蒙的曝露好像跟這個台灣年輕乳癌的發生是有相關性所以民眾其實對於這個女性乳癌尤其是年輕女性乳癌希望有更多的了解的同時我們希望這個環境荷爾蒙造成的影響是也要非常非常的注意所以我們也希望能夠有更好的研究方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10778.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10787.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
處理需求我們會跟國務院有一些合作的計畫我們來研究好那就麻煩大家持續努力謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝謝謝好好接下來請劉建國委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10811.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10825.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
好那我們就請劉宣國召委進行發言好謝謝主席請有請環境部的彭部長好請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10828.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10849.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
召委好 部長好 部長今天被肯定多過於被質疑批判的謝謝 跟部長恭喜也代表環境部在部長的帶領之下 相關的因應還有積極的作為 受到委員會 應該是多數委員的肯定這其一那其二 也要請教部長就是說 如果詢問你一些比較沒有挑戰的事情你會不會覺得比較有氣無力 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10853.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10870.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
舉例什麼事情?兩件事情,第一件事情來看,剛剛黃前召委、黃旭芳委員特別提到這個垃圾混化爐的一個處置的過程,那我當主席的時候是聽你講說,它還是回歸在地方政府的相關的這個調配的權利, |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10872.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10891.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
但是我也提醒不是這樣喔過去的政策是要先是一份化爐在八十幾年代的時候當時全國既然一個縣市要一座文化爐的情況之下要這個文化取代掩埋既然當時高達的規劃是36座 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10894.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10920.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
台灣又不是中國怎麼會有三十六座又不是有三十六省對不對不管他後來的行政區域怎麼去做合併調整也不可能有三十六座所以當時的政策儼然是非常錯誤的這樣的一個誇大擴大的不實的這樣一個狀況所以一直走到後來是當時的環保署自己去調整修正才從三十六座直接就砍了十座了 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10921.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10929.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
可能所有那時候就變成有26座已經不管是從公辦民營還是民辦民營VOT到VOO等然後還有兩座是26加2其中就是講的第27座那27座是在台東對不對但是當時給台東的這一座叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10943.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10953.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
備而不用啦 備而不用因為坦白講 26座的福諾魯要來處理台灣所延伸出來的產生出來的不管是家務垃圾還是4175已經綽綽有餘了啦然後第28座是哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10959.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10982.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
是我的故鄉雲林叫做林淚魂化爐當時我們跟他叫做切身未明後來又更正這四個字因為他是環評作假被抓到然後相關當時的首長被判刑甚至也都去執行了也都執行完畢了所以最終這一個第28座他不叫做切身未明應該叫做被判死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10983.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11010.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
他絕對沒有辦法再死灰護藍因為就剛剛林淑媛特別提到的你的救全力然後這個救全力你不去履行然後你造假你要想要再去在地限地的去重啟環評那個造假的環評怎麼有任何的條件所以被當時的法院判決這個環評實屬無效那除非你當時被判決的這個因素又被廢棄 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11011.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11026.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
才有在提原地去重啟還品的這樣的一個機會嘛不然是沒有了啦細節我就不再贅述那那個時候全國卻已經確定就是不管是公辦公允民辦允允就是這26座奈何 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11028.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11044.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
又不曉得什麼原因台東這一座從這一個被我不用變成現在正式再啟用那也又加一了那這個中間民進黨開始在再度執政的時候就想當了總統的時候又找了環保署 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11045.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11071.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
相關的包含經濟部開了相關的會議之後決定要去更新我們整個將近十多年二十年的這些葷號爐的設施所以我們也匡列了蠻多的預算這預算也是來自中央也是來自當時的環保署哪有錢補助給人家通通沒有任何的指揮權通通沒有任何的調度權 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11072.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11088.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
通通還是要依照地方政府他想怎麼樣就怎麼樣他想市議會區域的收取量大過於家務垃圾他竟然可以自己去決定然後環保署完全沒有辦法自走完全沒有辦法去指揮 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11090.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11117.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
好 那就牽涉到什麼牽涉到來修法了嘛 對不對所以我們就在107年就在 大家就一起討論啊當時跟署長跟副署長跟相關的這個主管機關的同仁就坐下來如何讓我們這一個垃圾的目的處理胡鬧魯的目的世界主管機關它是回歸到中央的環保署就是現在環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11118.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11143.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
絕對沒有那個說我們今天補助錢,包含能更新設備,多多是中央全有的補助,我們竟然沒有任何的調度權,這講不過去嘛。所以在匯金網第28條裡面,部長可能要再看一下,非常清楚,也就是處理家務垃圾有餘養的時候,你才可以再去另收取其他的這些失業會期物去做處理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11144.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11156.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
這非常清楚非常清楚連相關的對應的法則都定出來所以我是請部長可能要小心因為當有人在追尋你這個事情的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11157.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11174.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
這絕對不是在有地方政府他可以直接不聽中央的指揮調度而且我們把那個火力電池非常非常必要性的授權給我們的中央主管機關有這樣的一個權力跟權限那相對的補助還是在中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11174.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11186.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
所以我是提醒部長有這件事情好不好好 謝謝委員好 那第二件事情是這樣剛剛特別提到就是依據環境部有頒布的這個綠營人才的就業趨勢報告為什麼講說綠營人才是未來台灣的綠巨人 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11193.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11211.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
講這個就來呼應部長的積極作為嘛2024年全台有近3600家的企業釋出綠領值缺嘛不少嘛所以平均每月需求高達2.2萬這個人才缺口是直追AI產業的2.9萬人會不會超越我認為會會嘛對不對好部長也認為嘛這個未來隨著法規的區域或國際減碳 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11219.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11239.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
這個壓力的升高預估未來5年綠領持缺將有1到3倍的成長空間AI未必有對不對所以我們絕對有機會超越所以市場對於這個具備探管理與減排知識的人才需求將持續攀升所以因此環境部在3月成立了所謂 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11241.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11255.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
這個淨嶺綠嶺人才的培育聯盟在北中南東市區設立區域培育計畫然後給國內的28所大專院校讓民眾就近可以接受這個淨嶺綠嶺人才的培訓課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11256.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11284.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
沒有錯嘛 你看部長跟那個林院長大家笑得合不攏嘴那我們看到這個立委員彩的未來的希望嘛同年啦 同時這個4月1號開放第一班的課程上網報名沒有40人沒有就40人在16分鐘就額滿 跟搶這個演唱會的門票一模一樣所以部長會講說 上這個課程就像買一張很好的不會下跌的股票啦 這樣補充說的那這麼High的課程 我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11285.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11311.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
應該所有人都會支持部長去推嘛尤其這麼好的課程也一定要照顧弱勢因為這個窮不能窮到教育嘛部長應該可以認同嘛所以整個培育的課程有四八小時一萬二但是相對對一般家庭也是有一點點小小的壓力嘛所以環境部還針對青年宣誓這個弱勢提供了什麼鼓勵更多青年與弱勢族群的參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11313.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11331.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
課程提供以下這個學位優惠方案30歲以下大學碩博在學生享有半額補助6000元嘛低收入戶享有全額補助一萬二沒有錯嗎?對這跟部長特別肯定啊有低收入戶為什麼沒有中低收入戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11334.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11355.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
這不就很難肯定啊對不對經費的關係來跟委員報告一下因為經費的關係所以今年你們經費是因為被這個立法院把你刪掉所以你們就要捨棄中低收入戶因為經費上要籌措所以當時就先以這樣的規模來定那或許我們因為一段時間會檢討那到時候看看經費額度我們再做調整大概會這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11356.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11377.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
對啦,但是你看到齁,如果我們對比嘛齁,這有來下的,有由看有嘛齁,沒有由自己想就對了齁,但是這有樣可以看啦。這一步齁,這個學校學財會解免辦法第三條規定,低收入戶免除全部的學財會,中低收入戶學生還要解免學財會60%啊,對吧?是。那我們為什麼不能比照辦理? |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11378.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11396.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
因為你上面有一個減六千這一個等於是七千二這個會很多嗎?有評估過嗎?如果都沒有,你就說我們經費不夠所以我們就先低然後我們中低就不要那也不是很奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11398.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11420.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我們明年如果有碳費有一些預算的話就不能窮教育也不能因為做這樣的補助然後有這樣的差別的對待的對象這不屬於彭部長個性這個也不是很大的挑戰如果這個經費這麼少就是讓你們覺得很少那可能是讓部長有挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11423.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11443.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
不曉得應該可以挑戰成功啊跟委員報告一下我們今年因為預算我們現在可以再去籌措一些錢那我們再來調整這補助的方法對阿不只中低收入啊還有身心障礙者啊各位不要誤會一般都會覺得是中低產 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11444.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11471.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
但是中低收入不一定它是慘啦有中低慘的朋友當然你更需要去照顧只要你中低收入把它放進去這就全部照顧得到但是對身陷障礙者你看嘛部長你的第一個是30歲以下大學碩博在學生嘛就享有那你知道身陷障礙者其實他要在我們這樣的職場是非常非常困難的 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11473.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11479.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那你這個只是一個鼓勵也不一定會很多人來報啦我講真的嘛但是我們就把這個可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11482.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11511.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
照顧的對象我們開闊一點不為過啦 真的不為過啦是不是可以索賀一下我們來挑戰一下好啦 我這次強調你絕對經得起挑戰啦所以我們就要從一週內全部人從教育齁針對這個課程減免的辦法從現在來做一些研議更正啦好不好好 謝謝部長謝謝委員 對因為我接下來要講的說你看喔 你在你在補助這個在學的這些大學生碩博生啦齁你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11512.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11534.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
提高青年學生願意來這個上課的意願所以4月1號這是秒殺的第一班部長可以看4月26號在國立台灣師範大學所謂上課這個獲得相關的統計資料平均年齡37歲社會人士八成以上那據碩士以上的學歷有達73%學員的職業有工程師、醫務人員行政助理、會計、總務、大學、教師等這我們補足一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11539.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11553.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
沒有沒有,30歲以上就1萬2我現在平均37啦,30歲以下你補足一半嘛你不要被扣外圍,不然就被拋掉了我是不會讓你外圍這麼多扣分喔但是你看這個參與率就這麼高所以我是覺得說是不是老花鼠我剛才用教育部來做比喻 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11566.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11587.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
老公屬於一個叫做產業人才投資計畫補助參訊勞工80%、100%的訓練費用每人三年內最高補助十萬我不曉得環境部這樣的計畫就應該跟勞動部好好的對接讓勞工在進修的時候可以使用這樣的補助計畫可以嗎?你不要坐下去說話,不然會被人家怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11590.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11608.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
那個洪部長有跟我約時間了,要不要來討論這個事情?有約,但是還約不到,所以沒有討論。會約好時間了,但是還沒開會,這個禮拜就會開會。就還沒有開嘛,對不對?你們兩個人能約,我可以幫你們約啦,我也可以當電燈泡。但是底下的木鳥都還沒有作業嗎?不可能吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11609.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11621.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
有討論了跟就是說立法院開完會我們至少跟勞動部已經開會四次了已經四次了已經有四次了吧所以到現在是一而不決 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11623.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11645.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
而是這兩步之間的相關的這種思維跟行動跟都還有很大的這樣的落差還差細節的問題主秘可能可以講得更清楚主委簡單回應因為時間超過了跟委員說明一下現在這個32所學校裡面如果是在產投計畫裡面其實只有17所學校 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11645.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11660.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
是可以在我們的產投方案裡面去對接這樣子的補助資源那其他後續的學校如果後續有開班我們再來協助運用產投的這個方案的計畫來補助我請教兩位嘛也要請問部長如果你們計畫趕快去認定出來對失業勞工進入到這個領域裡面進入綠領人才培訓課程問證之後對整個失業有沒有幫助嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11670.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11689.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
喔這當然有幫助對嘛 好嘛那你看這個 文化署這邊也有有一點點經費對 這個計畫如果你們研擬好之後對整體會有幫助怎麼不趕快就兩部的部長就趕快坐下來就訂了嘛就趕快實施嘛可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11692.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11715.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
這個應該不太有挑戰還是很有挑戰還是誰要出比較多錢還是怎麼樣我們本來就可以支應這個經費啦可以支應這樣的經費在我們的產投計畫裡面就可以支應這樣的經費嘛對不對但是就是細節的部分要怎麼樣去借這個有錢你們細節要看這麼久那個沒錢就還去想辦法有錢不對吧一個星期內可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11717.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11743.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
環境部跟勞工署共同研議勞工進修及失業勞工的相關補助計畫可以嗎可以一個禮拜那個組長在那裡說可以組長說可以好那對不起我這邊就歇一下我要求環境部跟勞工部對近年歷年人才的培訓課程第一週內針對這個課程解免辦法重新研議應該納入這個中低收入及身心障礙者第二一個月內 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11744.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11746.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
環境部跟勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11768.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11795.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
也謝謝部長這邊的答詢下一位林靜縣委員林靜縣委員林靜縣委員不在下一位葉元芝委員葉元芝委員葉元芝委員不在下一位請吳立華委員發言謝謝主席有請環境部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11798.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11815.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
吳委員好部長好 部長今天安排的主題是綠色轉型人才培育那我跟您分享 其實我在去年的8月我有召開一個園鄉碳會的公聽會那今年的4月我也有召開地熱公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11818.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11844.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
那5月26號呢會辦理一個立法院氣候韌性與能源永續發展促進會的成立大會藉著這個平台也邀請希望你那天能夠來給大家鼓勵那為什麼我要做這件事情實際上是因為很多我們的能源的開發或者是像這個現在最需要的這個攤會在我們原鄉有自然攤會 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11845.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11866.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
很多人都會來找我們的族人可是族人呢並不清楚甚至他們會覺得現在詐騙猖獗會不會來的這些人都是詐騙集團那也有可能他會變成一個詐騙的溫床因此公部門的一個介入其實是很重要的會讓他們有安全感 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11867.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11886.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
那現在我在那個每一次的公聽會裡面其實我講的最重要的一件事情就是我們不要在自己家的土地上面去做人家的故宮這是很悲哀的一件事情所以我們很希望的就是人才的培育所以自然攤位來講探驗證 探盤查 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11890.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11892.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
我覺得這一些都是我們原住民必須要參與其中我們應該要成為別人的合作的一個partner所以在這個部分很高興就是我們環境部也有這樣的一個想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11907.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11924.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
113年11月22號環境部有提到有跟原民會延商原住民族的綠領人才培育所以我特別想要問一下部長請問延商的結果是怎麼樣今年度有沒有什麼具體的計畫要跟原民會一起來做綠領人才培育 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11929.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11951.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我們跟園民會有做過多次協商那基本上我們本來期待是可以用專班去幫忙原住民的那邊的原住民來參加這樣課程不過因為園民會因為今年受到預算凍結的影響所以他們原規劃那個補助方案才專班好像今年度有點困難那他說期待明年會做今年度用的方式他現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11951.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11966.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
以現有經費他可能用所謂的指派人員到我們的專班的方式處理所以是今年原民會跟我們的目前的模式是這樣子的那請問一下那這些所謂上課的費用有沒有減免補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11968.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11985.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
原民會會處理這個部分所以確定會有補助會有減免我剛剛都聽到了中低收入戶也都可以啦身心障礙都可以啦那我們是氣候變遷下的受害者公正轉型的對象要不要減免 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11987.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12009.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
針對袁樹民的那個派員來的 園民會已經答應他會全額來付助的學費好 那謝謝 會全額補助好 那其實我一直都很關心從之前溫管法要修正為7000法的時候那個時候我就是一直在講園民會有沒有角色 那個時候是沒有的那我看了一下我們這個地方112到115有一個國家氣候變遷調適行動計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12013.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12040.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
看到在能力建構的部分有看到園民會有角色但是回到能力建構的細項去看的時候又看不到園民會所以我是覺得這個園民會其實是蠻悲哀的經常會被大家不知道要放在哪裡可能覺得他們也不知道要做什麼事但是沒有關係我今天有看到因為我在預算提案的時候就特別關心你們有提到114年5月 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12043.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12064.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
會有一個本部邀集各個部會來強化原住民族委員會的角色這是你們解凍報告裡面說的因為我有做這個預算提案那請教一下原民會今年1月已經成立淨林永續發展小組那預計你們會跟他們對接要做哪些項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12066.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12088.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
跟委員報告目前是先由這個禮拜國發會會先邀各個部會來討論調適衝擊的領域那接下來我們也會再接著這個會議邀那個園民會來討論接下來在調適領域的工作項目所以還是要給他們工作任務啦好那為什麼我這樣關心因為要有任務啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12090.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12117.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
像這個溫室氣體管理基金 溫管基金管理委員有沒有原住民族代表報告委員 目前沒有法規我看也沒有強迫要對 也沒有強迫要但是部長您認為要不要我認為其實這個第一個是一定要有一個用途的就等於是說我們會把這個工作例如說我們未來決定這個經費分配裡面原民一定要有一個可以參與的部分這個我是同意的所以一定要有原民代表嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12118.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12130.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
目前我們會透過諮詢的方式能夠來找因為原名代表如何產生出來也是一個蠻大的一個工程所以未來也希望委員給我們一些意見一定要因為我們都在談足群主流化更何況 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12132.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12156.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
原住民在這個當中他不僅僅是脆弱群體公正轉型對象我覺得我們可以更積極的來看待原民會的角色或原住民的角色我們有生態智慧有山林知識甚至這些山林資源原住民是固有主權是他的固有主權所以我覺得這個部分千萬不能夠沒有原住民主代表好嗎 部長好 我們來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12158.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12173.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
那這個部分我會關心當然有委員在裡面因為他就會有碳費的收入的支用所以這個部分部長你剛才有提到了應該會規劃有一些的比例是用在原住民族地區對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12174.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12194.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
對就是說但是那個項目如何定因為我們還沒有開會開到那個程度好那至少我們也去因應了嘛我們有修法版本所以呢過去沒有寫現在我們把它修進來去新增像原住民族地區自然資源及生態多樣性的維護教育宣導事項原住民族地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12195.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12199.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
溫室氣體減量產業的補助跟獎勵的事項我想這個反正就是我們希望增加的項目也許院版你們有更好的一些想法我們都樂觀其成那在這邊就是特別針對這個部分那希望呢可以來訴求我們不論是綠領人才的培育或者是淨零碳排溫室氣體管理的基金都希望我們的部會因為我要跟部長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12224.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12233.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
我們的原轉會在賴清德總統上任之後就解散了但是他的意思是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12234.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12261.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
階段性任務完成現在應該要回歸到整個部會每一個部會要在部會裡面去落實原住民族的轉型正義所以希望能夠顧及到族群的主流化然後跟原民會靜林永續小組有一個密切的合作那這個部分我希望說我這邊因為常常會有人問那接下來我們也會成立一個立法院的次團 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12261.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12278.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
所以希望在一週內可以來辦公室讓我初步能夠掌握一些資訊可以嗎好沒問題好謝謝部長好謝謝主席謝謝吳立華委員的發言謝謝部長的答詢下一位何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12279.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12292.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在下一位鄭正琴委員鄭正琴委員鄭正琴委員不在下一位林柱英委員林柱英委員林柱英委員不在下一位徐富凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12305.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12317.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
謝謝主席,有請我們彭部長,還有我們經濟部產法署的周副署長,能源署的鄭副組長好,徐委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12325.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12340.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
部長還有我們的副處長副處長好那我想今天的主題是有關於推動這個綠色轉型的一個政策那當然本期這邊也特別關心我們這個整個我們綠農的一個發展尤其我們核三廠二號季在5月17號 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12342.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12360.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
除以之後我想大家都很關心我們整個台灣的能源政策所以有幾個問題要請教部長跟我們相關的主管部長我想我們台灣過去發展太陽能產業的部分業者最近有一個觀察到一個狀況就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12361.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12386.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
中國透過一個東南亞國家稀產地的一個疑慮非常的嚴重那尤其美國特別針對東南亞四國進行的一個太陽能電池的長達一年的一個貿易調查的結果也出爐了那裁定了我們東南亞四個國家消美的大部分的太陽能電池科與一個很高的一個關稅那尤其是柬埔寨的產品被科與超過3500%的一個關稅相當的嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12389.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12413.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
那請教部長跟我們相關主管我們目前也憂心這個東南亞的國家因為大陸透過他們的一個國家的扶植透過一個息產地的一個方式他們的產品目前沒辦法銷到美國但是有可能就鎖定台灣是一個銷售的一個目標那尤其我們最近掌握到一個數據太陽能一個模組的整體進口量 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12413.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12423.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
一直呈現正成長尤其今年1、2月進口的量就佔了我們國內需求的五成那不曉得我們鄉面單位有沒有掌握這樣一個情緒 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12425.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12446.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
跟委員報告經濟部跟財政部這邊有成立一個小組專門監視太陽能模組的一些相關的進出口的狀況那剛才委員所提的一二月的狀況確實是我們都有在持續的關注當中如果有傾銷的情形我們會請這個相關的工會提出按照這個傾銷的規定來向提出相關的一個申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12447.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12471.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
我想副市長我們的動作要加快了既然美國都用這樣一個強力的手段來遏止這樣的一個洗產的一個疑慮那我們也不能置身事外尤其我們國內的這個太陽能的需求一直都很大那有沒有可能經濟部還是我們相關部會針對這樣的一個方式我們進行一個緊急防衛稅的一個措施有沒有這樣的一個規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12472.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12496.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
緊急防衛稅還是要由業者來提出那經濟部這邊會來做統籌評估跟財政部一起合作來做處理所以這部分是可行的如果有提出的話就可以啟動程序那這個程序大概要多久的時間可以完成防衛的部分是針對全球不是針對固定的國家針對特定的國家的話是用反警消 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12496.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12516.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
好那目前因為我們知道的狀況大概就是中國的大量的傾銷的部分那甚至他們透過假外資的部分假外資就是用比如說我們東南亞的國家來標了我們一些的案子那因為尤其像我們的公家機關現在有很多這個屋頂的一個太陽能的一個面板 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12517.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12533.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我們的廠商他們都會透過一個無人機的一個系統來觀測這個設施的狀況甚至用來做一個清洗面板那有沒有可能像我們一些軍事基地就透過他們透過這樣的方式做一些勤制的一些收集我們有沒有方法用這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12538.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12547.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
這個每個機關在採購的時候他們都會在採購的時候都會有一些基本的要求像軍事的部分應該都會排除一些非紅供應鏈的一些設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12549.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12573.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
這個確實要查一下因為我們就有掌握到說有一些假外資的狀況那確實就是大陸的一些資金進來透過這種方式他們的目的不是要做這個太陽能啦是要收集我們的一些軍事的一些情報啦這個狀況很嚴重所以務必要注意一下那針對我們公有的一個team sale的部分我們是不是有要求這個我們國產化的一個比例這部分副主有掌握狀況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12579.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12602.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
這個部分我們可能需要再進一步掌握狀況這個如果有需要的話我們事後再回報給委員這應該也要注意一下不能總是用一些中國大陸的產品危害性就很高我們也要扶持我們國內的產業也必須做國產化的部分另外我想再請教一下我們的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12604.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12634.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我想屏東過去這個我們有這個砍頂焚化爐那使用的年限也已經從2000年開始運轉到現在已經超過20幾年那我也知道您一直很關心這個所謂的一個運轉能量那尤其過去除了一些民生的垃圾之外還有很多事業廢棄物處理所以造成這個樣子一個使用的一個壽命甚至這個營運的狀況有出現很大的一個問題有沒有機會再怎麼樣針對焚化爐的一個改善部分做出一個有效的一個替代方案或規劃的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12637.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12648.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
是跟委員報告 當然文化爐的效能降低的時候他們是會用引進民間資金來做改善那目前屏東也是準備這樣子在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12649.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12677.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
但是就是因為常常故障常常要修理垃圾就一直在堆積所以造成衍生我們另外一個仿留掩埋場的問題垃圾越堆越多常常因為像現在夏天最近就發生過好幾起火災事件這部分是部長我們要一併去檢討焚後爐跟掩埋場的一個問題是跟委員報告他們整改的進度已經到最後了目前正準備整改完之後起爐那就慢慢會消化掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12679.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12698.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
確定嗎?那部長那針對垃圾野脈廠的部分,我想你之前在媒體都一直報導希望針對有一些能夠不要露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12703.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12726.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
那小琉球也是一樣,因為我知道你有過去小琉球對,小琉球的話狀況是跟委員報告小琉球它是我們鼓勵它運回來第二個是它在那個地區做成倉儲室的所謂倉儲室就不要漏天它有雨盆等等遮住它在轉運的時候對環境影響會比較小 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12727.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12751.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
因為小流小鮮也是一個很重要的觀光地帶我想我們也是希望在整個這個環境的部分不要造成對觀光的一個衝擊那尤其這個管理的部分也是希望我們環境部能夠給予我們縣政府更多的一個支持力道好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝徐委員 謝謝部長接下來請羅明財委員羅明財委員不在請陳北宇委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12758.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12759.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
好 謝謝主席 那有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12763.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12788.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
陳委員好 部長好快速跟您討論一個事情就是關於部長您之前在那個洪山翰委員現在是勞動部部長的協助之下您到台北市有一個非常重要的協會去跟地方的拾荒者一起工作體驗地方拾荒者的辛苦那當時部長您也發現全台拾荒者有列明造冊的拾荒者他們回收貢獻量佔全台灣的9%而清潔隊也只有10% |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12790.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12802.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
也就是說如果再加上沒有造冊的我們相信應該遠超過這個數字那拾荒者他們現在面臨的困境我知道部長您之前有研究也有做非常多協助先謝謝部長那我們今天想要跟您討論的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12804.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12814.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
來下一張他們現在遇到的這些困境有非常非常多我相信後續應該我們在環境部可以更多的協助我今天想要跟你一個討論一個比較簡單的問題來下一張可能相對容易第一個回收空間不足的問題那事實上在南非有相關的case |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12822.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12851.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
他們是讓拾荒者工作還有綻放回收物的空間這個是由公部門來承擔相關的設置跟規劃當然相關的資源主要是希望當這些地方的拾荒者他們的工作環境可以變得更好那也可以不要讓社區居民對他們造成反彈跟不喜歡他們堆放這些收回收的物品在自家門口其實也會影響到社區居民的感受來看下一張部長您之前到台中去考察這個案例你還記得嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12852.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12871.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
台中有全台灣第一座社區零廢棄示範基地這個基地結合了社區企業學者那有相關的機制相關的鼓勵措施還有相關的鼓勵居民參與的活動我們在想有沒有機會我們在台中以外由部長您直接想像一個空間來設計這個可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12874.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12902.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我們當然是希望這種零廢棄在台灣越來越多對 因為我剛剛說他可以他可以協助地方的拾荒者也可以增加社區居民的參與甚至我們未來在做學童的環境教育這也是一個很重要的面向那當然我知道在六都要找到這樣的地方有困難可是事實上很多地方的拾荒者他們的工作也多在六都主要是因為六都產生非常多的廢棄物所以相關的回收業者當然也就在六都可是如果六都的地又這麼貴空間這麼難尋 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12903.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12917.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
我們有沒有別的可能性來想這個事情首先我們就是要跟地方政府來合作所以台中這個案例是跟台中市政府合作對不對民間團體那這個空間的使用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12924.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12930.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
是承租這個空間嗎民間團體來承租這個空間社區發展協會社區發展協會好太好了那我剛已經講了部長之前已經去過五角辦所以五角辦或者是其他的相關組織如果也有這樣的意願那工作量也許可以來規劃承擔所以可不可以請您再說明他是跟民間團體合作然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12944.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12966.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
相關的運作方向大概會是什麼那如果是說以台中市這個案例就是社區協會他會提供這個空間由我們的主婦聯像主婦聯這種我們的民間團體他去協助他那就可以來做一個比較好的一個發展跟規劃那如果是說有社區或者我們的民間團體來做那我們這邊環境部願意來一起來推動這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12966.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12981.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
OK 所以環境部那一天之所以會去考察看這個基地主要是因為環境部也有一些角色或是資源在裡頭嗎你們合作的方法是什麼目前是沒有但是我們也希望未來可以讓它做得好可以擴大的話讓我們願意投入變成一個示範場域 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12982.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13011.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
好所以聽起來不管是台中這個現在有民間團體自力經營然後跟更多的公民團體一起合作那部長其實是去採經啦是去國內考察去學習他們或者是我剛剛說的那個南非那個基地喔那對對就這個南非基地所以我想喔共同來去想像一個新的可能在台灣目前有沒有機會推動第二個所以我們辦公室可不可以積極的拜託環境部有沒有機會參考國外跟台中的案例在公有的空間有沒有一些公有的然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13011.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13020.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
也許現在暫時沒有用到的一些空間做規劃的可能我說的是先提出規劃報告不是開始做 是先做規劃報告有機會嗎 三個月內做規劃報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13023.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13052.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那我们会来这个提出就是跟一些社区或者民间团体来谈谈提出这个规划的方向好不好三个月内好不好我们一起来努力看看因为我觉得有更多这样的案例对台湾绝对是好事因为部长我刚刚跟你说了绝对超过9%的这个回收数字绝对是我们很重要民间的力量好不好虽然可能拾荒者在大家眼中看起来有很多大家的不理解但我认为透过正面环境教育的案例绝对让更多人可以理解这件事情那他们的贡献也可以被台湾社会看见 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13052.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13065.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席 藥哥我沒有超時好 謝謝 謝謝所以請你三分鐘你也不能超時 這個請藥委員來詢問好 謝謝主席 主席請一下彭部長來請部長 開始計時 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13081.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13095.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
姚維好部長好部長根據法國在2019的研究大概我們可以得出一個結論就是氣候政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13098.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13119.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
能源價格跟勞動力技能的相關性它呈現的大概是這樣子就是能源價格長期變化會使技術人員的比例增加9到17%大概啦那體力勞動者的比例減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13121.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13133.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
4到8%這個算是還蠻大的幅度的變化歐盟跟英國 英國脫歐以後歐盟跟英國大概都有透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13136.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13158.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
專用的基金來對於受影響的對象也就是這些因為需要的體力勞動的需求降低所以對這些對象提供協助那我想要問一下我們環境部在正式徵收碳稅以後會不會有相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13163.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13185.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
的處置報告委員您說的這個就是公正轉型啦齁那這個部分我跟那個勞動部的洪森漢部長有的確我們兩個面對面開會討論過這個事情因為5月1號那個我記得很多的勞工團體有提出一個訴求就是委員你提的那個訴求那我們在那個5月1號之前我就跟那個洪部長有見面面對面討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13187.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13213.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
說我們要如何合作但是目前的細節我們預計這一兩個禮拜就會開會我們有約的時間那就是委員你提到的這個關鍵的問題我們就希望來解決那目前的確啦我當然說我有跟洪部長說未來我們有碳費啦但是洪部長說勞動部的資源比環境部大很多啦所以目前這個部分未來我們希望可以趕快來解決這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13221.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13239.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
勞動部的缺口比環境部大我覺得缺口不過這跨部會反正你們就是去做溝通協調協調出一個比較好的政策方案出來根據 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13244.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13258.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
環境部的報告我們國環院從113年開始開始規劃建置力領人才的資訊平台大概6月份就要上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13260.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13281.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
像美國勞工部的職業資訊分類網站建制就業人才網其中分析各項綠色產業人才的職務內涵包括工作內涵、薪資待遇、工作環境、所需職能、可取得證照 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13285.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13305.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
相關的資訊供民眾來尋求來尋找職缺的時候參考請教一下環境部是不是可以跟勞動部來研議接近這樣子的一個網站讓國內的民眾更了解綠色產業工業的範疇 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13309.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13333.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
跟藥委員報告一下我們現在正在建構這個綠領的人力資訊平台我們希望提供的是一站式的服務所以剛剛委員提像各部會像勞動部、金管會還有經濟部其實我們都希望在這個平台裡面提供它第一個培訓資源包括相關的綠領相關的資訊都會在這裡面那我們這建構的平台大概預計六月先上線那測試之後我們當然也會參考像美國這個要不要再做 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13334.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13336.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
功能上的擴充我們會來繼續評估這樣對就是6月份先上線然後我們就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13344.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13364.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
一邊做一邊檢討我們需要做調整因為有些可能需要新加的資源進來因為綠林的範疇本來就有點浮動所以我們要做檢討這個為什麼這樣子問呢因為就各國的分析指出未來的綠色產業人才的需求會很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13366.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13375.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
歐盟研究機構也指出如果有正確的進行政策支持到了2023年光是歐洲可能要創造100到250萬個就業機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13381.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13399.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
我們環境部在2024年也推估目前只有7%的真材企業開出綠能工作需求未來5年有1到3倍的空間對不對對沒錯那就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13401.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13421.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
所以環境部今年會成立淨齡綠齡人才培育聯盟由環境部跟大專院校在北中南東淨齡人力培育中心每年至少培訓3500人 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13425.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13431.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
我想要問一下就是每年3500人怎麼來因應未來的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13433.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13457.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
跟委員報告一下這是我們因為我們第一年自己辦的時候大概1000人的規模那我們這次是因為教材重新編定之後我們跟32所大學院校合作然後先第一年先做測試大概這個量能是不是足以因為我們每半年會做人力趨勢的滾動檢討那我們看這個培訓的量能跟就需求的狀況是怎麼樣那我們會未來會調整這個量能不是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13461.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13485.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
我們現在自己也有預估嘛那我在看每年三千五可能跟預估出來的是有落差的對不對對我跟委員報告因為除了我們環境部的培訓以外其他我剛剛講金管會勞動部或其他部會也有一些培訓所以我們是要整體去搭所以我剛剛跟委員報告我們每半年會做一支滾動式就是我們有人力趨勢的發展報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13486.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13502.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
我們看各界的需求跟供給之間要怎麼要做搭配做下一階段的調整我們用這種方式比較跟實際比較能夠吻合我們現在想法是這樣子因為有需求所以就會有很多補教的產業出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13507.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13523.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
我問一下就是說我們怎麼對於坊間有一些虛偽不實的訓練資訊等等相關的現象去做一個管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13523.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13542.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
報告委員因為那個是屬於民間自己的行為啦但是因為我們來之前我記得去年的時候委員也提出過這樣的收個30萬幾十萬的那樣的課程那經過我們推動過去半年推動這樣的一個成效之後其實那個相關的廣告就少很多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13543.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13562.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
我相信政府出來我當然說政府不見得做得非常非常好但是我們至少提出一個版本讓大家可以依循然後等於是說讓這個市場恢復到一個正常的狀況這個是我們努力的目標啦對就是補教的系統我們並不排斥 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13563.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13585.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
可是呢必須要控管他的職那我們公部門按照剛剛講的就是北中南東這樣子的一個官學合作我們盡量把未來的需求人力盡速的培養出來好不好好謝謝部長謝謝主席主席我也沒有超時 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13589.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13592.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
好 謝謝 接下來請盧縣議員來做詢問主席有請部長盧委員好 總務好 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13610.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13630.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
那我昨天看到部長在花蓮也就是說可能就針對我們環境不近鄰綠綠人才培育聯盟你說32所大學院校嘛那昨天那個場域是慈濟大學在花蓮東部的那我想說關於這個綠綠人才有沒有想過成立一個單一的科系呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13631.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13648.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
單一的科系因為他因應未來這麼龐大的一個事業或者是說新的一個領域如果單一的科系是不是會更好來招生報告委員像師大他們就戲改名就永續所 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13649.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13676.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
那當然就基本上大家都會等於是很多人都會去報考那當然啦因為這家系所是屬於教育部或是大學的一個權責啦這個我們環境部沒有辦法去增列科系老師建議說如果就這麼重要的話是不是有一個所謂的綠能系啊這樣會不會更能夠把我們所謂的專業人才能夠迅速的培育起來好那現在還是在計畫性的一個層級嘛對不對對對對已經在做了已經在做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13678.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13696.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
就針對上次我有質詢你在大運的時候看到美國的一個趨勢也就是說關電的一個設施可能在2050年的時候是最大的一個percent那我有考過你說大概1000戶的時候大概要13.35甲的一個關電設施才可以應付這樣的一個未來的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13696.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13719.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
所以我們就相對我們來台灣來講我們台灣地產人手山地形又比較多嘛那結果我們現在獅子鄉又發生了這樣同樣的問題齁那大概一二年他們有開過部落會議反對設置關店然後一三年七月呢縣政府有發案給他們說如果部落不同意他說本府不會同意使太陽關店的開發可是昨天我就聽到呃呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13721.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13746.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
村民的陳情說現在還是有動工的跡象所以在下面一個就是說縣政府他有希望業者能夠再辦一次說明會可是這個權衡之間其實他們都我是希望環境部能夠知道說其實縣政府很像有要放水的感覺然後也有看到主委有看到他們在動工的現象所以希望環境部這邊能夠關心這個議題好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13748.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13773.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
好 這個我們會來瞭解一下 因為這個是屬於原住民法他們的一個諮商的一個權利啦 跟我們環評是除非他的這個量 他的面積很大 那當然超過15MW就是必須到達 因為上面都有公文的那個號 還有地號所以希望相關人能夠去分析 我們再來去了解這個案例好 下一個 就針對今天的我們的題目來說我想先問部長 綠領人才你覺得要具備哪些能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13773.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13787.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
基本上他對汽油變遷或是未來的淨零碳排有一些基本的了解然後甚至會一些簡單基本的碳排查也就是說當企業要賣掉淨零的時候這個基礎的人才他可以協助找到對的人來幫助這個企業來做發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13790.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13814.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
結果我查了以後 結果他需要的才能還真的很多還有所謂他需要critical thinking有批判性思考 還要會active listening 還要會很會傾聽第三還會做ranking 很會做所謂做級別的一個判斷那有一個很簡單的縮寫叫STEMS就是科學 T就是科技 E就是工程 M就是數學 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13815.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13825.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
也就是說以後的專業人才綠領人才的專業人才是STEM這個領域來去培養好 下一個其實我們常常看到我們的所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13825.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13849.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
那個標章那其實標章有什麼好處呢其實會尤其是對中小企業他們會增加他們的一些收入甚至說我在這個這個環境工作會有優越感所以我們是不是也可以比照說我們有盡量可以去有這些綠能啊或者是這些環保的標章給他們給中小企業來用這樣以後如果他在尋求所謂的生涯規劃的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13851.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13877.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
這些年輕人或者是想要從事這方面事業的人他就會去尋找這樣的公司呢或者是產業呢來投入這方面的一個綠能產業包委我們是現在環境部跟我們行政院在規劃就是說綠色採購的量要增多也就是說企業他如果有做的一些產品那經過我們認定他是屬於綠色的那當然我們就會給他一個相對應的標章就鼓勵你去採購這個綠色這個是我們是有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13879.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13901.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
那至於說企業它是不是綠色的現在其實大多數有很多 例如說RE100或是相對應的那個組織 那個都是民間自由的去籌組啦那我們官方的話 其實比較少會去發當然我們有一些表揚 例如說它是環保企業 這個是我們有在做那我看到說現在的那個綠領人才大概是到5.2%增加增加5.2% 你說2.2萬人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13903.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13930.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
那我看到國外的研究說大概8年會增加到24%所以大概你會要這樣一個規模你才會知道那也就是說現在我們在看整個勞動市場的話如果一直持續推動我們這個綠色產業的話會增加哪些工作項目看一下它會增加當然會增加就相對比如說會減少污染的工作也會產生一些工作也就是說它可以去做替換比如說它原本是做傳統的 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13933.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13956.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
現在是做太陽光電是第二個第三個就是說它也會排除一些工作比如說過度包裝的這些產業也會不見了也會造成一些工作會轉型然後甚至會造成一些工作的一個轉移比如說我們台灣可能比較注重環保所以一些產業會轉移到東南亞比較注重環保的一些工作所以這些所謂的labor market |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13956.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13971.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
可能在這個部分也是要跟勞動部去討論說以後你在做力量人才的培養的時候你是不是要把這方面所產生的所削減的去做計算然後做合理的做10年或者是5年的一個規劃是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13972.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13987.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
好謝謝委員這個其實我們跟勞動部我跟洪部長有一個默契就是說因為我相信洪部長也蠻懂的氣候變遷的所以我們會組成一個平台就是探討這個細緻的問題啦因為我覺得這個轉型過程當中一定是跟未來一定跟現在不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13988.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14015.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
然後看那個這個報告裡面啊每次那個我在看很仔細看的時候都看不到園民會所以每次都等15個部會的時候就沒有園民會其實你要考慮到原住民立委一直在沒辦法教育部、內政部、經濟部然後念到最後就等15個部會的時候會覺得根本就沒有把園民會放在裡面好不好所以你在培養人才的時候這些比較關鍵的字眼還是要有這樣我們就有被尊重的感覺好不好下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14016.156 |
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14040.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
其實我們就針對工作的一個置換或者說以後會被保全會被增加的時候其實他們在歐洲的國家也有做研究比如說這是以英國為例你看如果是做飲料的他可以所謂的CREATE的4萬多個工作可以保全9萬多個工作其實他都是一個很有品質的去很精算去可以了解說未來的產業的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14041.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14055.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
所以我希望我們環境部、勞動部這邊可以做更細緻的規劃以後在我們在年輕人或者是我們未來的傳統產業他們想要轉型的時候他們就有一些依據我們來一起努力謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝好 謝謝盧委員 謝謝部長接下來請蔡議員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14071.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14084.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
好 謝謝主席那我們是有請環境部部長那請部長農業部農業部農糧署農糧署 農糧署然後副組長副組長 副組長副組長好 蔡委員好部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14089.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14117.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
部長我們嘉義那三區這幾年這個較高族然後因為染病這個農糧署不知道清楚嗎那這個較高族大概這個染病面積不斷在擴大從過去大概1500公尺以上差不多嘉義的十里川以上那現在看起來往下蔓延表示這個病菌在擴大那較高族的這一個染病就代表著他 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14118.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14134.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
要恢復種族大概就是不可能了因為他染這種病齁 等於他發出來跟UAR就衰 衰得軟硬軟硬的就沒辦法繼續長所以未來這個地方大概要種植恢復種植竹木沒機會了 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14136.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14157.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
沒機會了,所以現在大家都在探討說,這片森林怎麼辦,以前都靜靜的嘛所以我就在想說,如果我們有在發生了這樣的一個染病的時候我們是不是要去思考說,未來這裡是不是就是讓這些過去種植竹林的這些鄉親,未來抓給他們來開始來造林 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14161.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14177.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
就用其他的樹種那要讓他們去種植其他的樹種呢當然我們希望這個種植其他的樹種是會讓他們維持生計所以是這一項我們現在在討論說我們要有這些綠人的人才最好的人才就在這裡我們這裡有這麼多的竹農現在這些竹農他們未來他們沒有辦法採收這個竹筍以後我們要吃竹筍會變成吃昆尿的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14188.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14192.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
沒理由就順著總統之下讓他們順勢的轉換他們的過去的一個生活習性他們從竹林轉成灶林然後透過取得碳匯的模式讓這一些過去的竹農變成綠能的人才這是一個風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14213.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14235.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
謝謝委員 這個的確是一個方向啦那關於這個竹林或是森林我們這個氣候署他本身都有通過一些方法學所以的確現在如果說農民願意去種有一些好的方法的話的確他是可以獲得我有看到你們幾個方法學不過你們方法學比較重視的就是說我種植 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14236.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14264.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
竹林或者是我種植樹木然後到一個程度就把它撤掉因為它主要是在長大的那一個階段是最有最有碳匯的所以這些東西如果我們可以讓在地的我們在地的這些竹農他們轉換然後你們要去打輔導讓他們有辦法適應他們整個未來他們就轉成造林而且造林對於我們這個地方以後的整體的景觀也會變得很漂亮如果他們可以順勢造林成功的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14266.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14286.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
這個我們跟農業部已經有在合作在討論這個事情有針對這裡在討論嗎?這裡可能還沒有,今天第一次看到沒關係,我跟部長提示,因為目前大概農業部我覺得這應該不是農糧署主責,應該是林業署主責林業署的想法,他最想要用基海啦你比那些主領全部都錄到 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14289.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14309.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
他們大概是想說就是造林了,因為這個土壤一旦被污染,細菌在土壤裡面,他們就沒辦法進,掉到沒辦法進,所以林業署這個做法也是一個做法,但是這個做法少了公民參與,少了這一些農民的參與,事實上我們應該讓社區的人一起投入 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14310.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14322.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
整個不管是造林然後創造碳匯然後把這個碳匯的價值留給我們這一些基層的農民我覺得這個方向比較對那林務署大概他覺得這個可能還要跟農民去溝通怎樣那可能比較耗礦日廢時所以想要用比較快的就是設計一個標案然後就叫企業來標企業去大家的地方錄調然後讓他們去造林我覺得這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14339.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14341.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
跳過了太多太多程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14343.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14371.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
事實上跟地方溝通我們也都可以來協助溝通那怎麼樣透過讓地方的社區的居民來協助造林然後可以取得相對應的價值這件事我們環境部在這一個事件上我們好好的介入然後把這一個地方的危機化成轉機我感覺這個就是一個最好的機會好 委員我們來試看看啦不過依照我們過去的經驗那個面積要大啦可能要萬家超級大有沒有100公頃 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14372.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14377.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
我們這裡可能破千公頃了那我們來研究過去我們的地鐵都在這裡我們的地鐵都從這裡來的現在這個有點是災難性的一個感染是全面 全軍覆沒的所以這是未來這裡一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14390.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14409.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
一個因為細菌然後產生的這個災害很嚴重我有感覺這個時候環境部適時介入然後給他們開出一個正確的方向這個是一個很好的好不好好委員我們來研究一下跟農業部一起面積不用懷疑真的很大整片整片沙灘都一樣受災害好不好好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝蔡委員謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14420.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14446.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
本日會議選打全部結束那委員廖偉祥所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定第一報告其選打完畢二委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員應要求其限責從其所定本日會議到此結束現在休息星期四上午九點繼續開會謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14456.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14457.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
好啊 好啊 謝謝 |