| IVOD_ID |
166658 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166658 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-23-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-24T11:11:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-24T11:21:21+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:06 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8b793423fad44d60c5ccf8f370f0106f1d90d5b7b1a8c99953d00c89e76a212fa4760fc26950f44b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
邱若華 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:11:15 - 11:21:21 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-24T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會及國家通訊傳播委員會就「社群平台打詐成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【12月22日及24日二天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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好 謝謝主席 主席先請速發部林部長來 林部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
12.856 |
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邱委員早安部長早今天的專題報告幾個類型的機關像是速發部還有NCC法務部還有行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心都提出了大量的數據都表示已經有成效了那民眾真的想問還有他們在意的並不是說你們做了多少事而是為什麼政府說詐騙在下降可是每天打開手機還是有民眾收片 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
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那也有就是還是會在平台上面看到詐騙的廣告那我今天要提問的問題全部來自你們書面報告中的內容那我們先看到根據行政院打詐指揮中心的報告今年11月詐騙的財損約59億那較去年同期下降53%那假投資還有詐騙的案件還有財損也分別下降67%然後還有71%那我肯定跨部會的努力合作嘛那也是也要請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
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那這些數字是不是已經有排除詐騙的手法從私訊然後轉移到封閉的社群然後還有他們換帳號然後再投放的可能性呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
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是 這個部分坦白講我們並沒有很精確的數字因為那個在封閉性的社群裡面或者是用那個網路通訊那個網路通訊軟體雖然您現在說沒有掌握到數字碼那有沒有這個排除的可能性還是我們只是把詐騙從A管道轉到B管道從一個平台轉換到另外一個平台呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
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是 事實上委員講到這個問題我們必須是正式因為如同我之前常常講的是詐騙是打詐是好人跟壞人之間不斷的攻防我們現在把很多的詐騙管道把它堵住了但是詐騙集團會尋找新的詐騙的那個破洞所以這個它不斷在變形 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
115.789 |
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它雖然不斷在變形 不知道我們有沒有一個跨平台還有跨樣態尤其是跨樣態的整體風險追蹤指標而不是只是單一的同胞像蘇巴布有這個打債APP那還有不只是這個單一的同胞然後還有下架的數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
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整個打詐的工作事實上是跨部會在進行的主要負責是內政部他們那邊成立的打詐指揮中心我們抒發部這邊負責的就是網路上面的詐騙我們要想辦法遏止網路上的詐騙目前我們觀察到的情形的確是網路上譬如說在Facebook上 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
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因為速發部一直在網路上面做努力嘛你們有建置了網路詐騙通報的查詢網也有通報Meta還有Google像Line大量涉詐的內容那也有對Meta進行裁罰我看到是1850萬喔那我想請教主要的一個問題喔那是否我們現在看到的是不是都是集中在我們下架了多少就只是數字上面那有沒有一個指標它可以衡量在民眾接觸之前我們就已經成功的阻斷了這個詐騙的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
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有這個就是我們把我們的那個這個通報了跟Meta已經通報了超過24萬則的詐騙訊息然後Meta他去訓練他的AI平台那他已經阻斷了那個針對台灣的詐騙訊息超過780萬則市長您一直都有提到已經下架了已經就是確認這些詐騙訊息是超過23萬24萬則那就表示這些內容在通報之前他已經成功的投放過了他也 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
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成功的曝光然後民眾也接收到了嘛所以我們在講的在要討論的是事情OK這樣我理解委員律師啊那沒錯我們要盡量縮短這個他上架的時間所以我們一直朝這個方向努力那現在我們通報給Facebook的那個詐騙廣告他們平均應該是3.5個小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
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3.5個小時就會下架然後如果是一般的訊息非廣告的那個一般的詐騙訊息的話是平均是8個小時他們會下架我們在報告中裡面也看到說Meta現在是最大宗嘛那對Facebook他們來說廣告他們這廣告組只要他們付得起他們就可以投放廣告然後系統也會進行推送這些廣告嘛所以對他們來說這些就跟一般的 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
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廣告組是一樣的他們不會去分辨這是不是詐騙的廣告沒有錯吧等一下那個就是我剛才講的我們就是要求Meta跟我們合作讓他們主動下封組了780萬則這個大部分這些廣告或者訊息就是連上架都還沒有上架他們偵測到就把它封組掉了就把它封組掉 |
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因為目前還是此時此刻也還是有詐騙廣告在Facebook上面嘛那我也不是我不是要求主管機關要介入他們的演算法那要請教蘇發布我們是不是可以再跟平台共同合作然後提出防詐計畫的時候就要求平台說明這些詐騙的內容然後還有是否因應推薦還有 |
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推播這些廣告而被放大因為這個是有關他們的觸及率嘛是是是沒錯那我們有沒有一個制度性的措施來降低這種被放大的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
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是就是如同我們剛才講的還有就是委員現在那個這個做出來那個投影片上面上面有寫紅字嘛去年也有官員到美國跟平台高層高通那時候就是我要是想請書副部長說我們不是要介入他們的演算法那我們是不是可以請平台就是他們提出他們是不是可以針對這些詐騙內容來避免被放大的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
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是 那個就是我們談的內容就是這樣而且我們要求各個平台出透明度報告裡面也都必須有這些制度性的作為那我們是不是請我們素產署黃副署長補充說明 謝謝是 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
346.01 |
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委員我們因為對於納管的網路廣告平台業者會要求他們要提供防炸計畫書這個防炸計畫書裡面就會有去做他的風險的一個評估那到了年底的時候在每年年底之前要出具他的透明度報告書所以他有沒有依照他的防炸計畫書去執行這個部分他必須要去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
368.104 |
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請問部長我們對Meta裁罰了1850萬那您認為他們有改善的動機嗎還是這只是一個誘因因為對於他們來說他們95%的收入都是來自於廣告剛剛也有委員提到他們的是非常可觀的那他們不改那只會他們繼續去繼續做這件事然後他們還是繼續賺錢嘛那對於這樣的裁罰設計對平台你認為來說這是對他們來說是可預期的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
394.411 |
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的確對於像Meta這樣的國際型大公司來講我們之前給他裁罰1850萬對他們來講並不是一筆很大的錢但是最重要的就是我們這個裁罰不是為了報復也不是因為我們缺錢政府缺這1850萬最重要我們是希望他改變他的行為希望他們加入我們打炸的行列加入我們所謂的好人隊這邊而且必須做系統性的去改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
418.359 |
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那我們也要注意到如果這個裁罰對他們的行為沒有辦法改變的話那只是問題還是存在那再多的通報再多的下架那還是把問題往後延嘛那這邊再請NCC是 有他們應該是有改善啦那個雖然我們還是不是完全滿意但是那個Meta有在朝好的方向進展謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
441.89 |
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461.717 |
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委員長 處長好 處長我直接就問一個問題門號是NCC管的沒有錯嘛 是那NCC可以管門號也管得了門號那為什麼帳號還是滿天飛嘛因為這些帳號都是要透過門號去做註冊嘛像Facebook還是Line還是Google那NCC的報告也有指出以停話或限進將近1.6萬的門號也攔阻了5000萬的境外通話也攔阻了20萬個詐騙的網域那 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
468.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
488.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
請問這些被停話還有限制的門號有多少是造成實際詐騙之前就你們就已經意識到了還是民眾受害之後被停話之後然後你們才掌握到跟我們報告那個停話的部分我們配合台高檢的一個平台我們有把停話的資料送給台高檢然後送給一些那個平台這邊來清理所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
489.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
518.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
之前在整個政府的座位裡面已經有把停話的資料送給平台這邊然後有停了斷話的那個帳號把它停掉的措施處長因為這個詐騙的流程它是要有門號嘛然後在平台上面去辦理註冊然後再透過廣告或是私訊詐騙民眾那你會不會覺得這些門話被停話之前那詐騙的任務他們都已經達成了那你們NCC這邊還能不能就是說就是從源頭我們都說要從源頭來落實賭占你們這邊可以再做到什麼樣的因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
519.461 |
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542.346 |
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所以跟委員報告就是在整個打詐的作為裡面通傳會這邊有把這個已經有人有知道這個門號拿來做詐騙的部分的這個停話之後把這個門號的資料送給平台這邊因為那個是帳號不管是金管會還是說社群平台的那把 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
543.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
566.273 |
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那些帳號可能還沒有我這邊因為時間的關係我這邊再請教部長一個問題喔我們都討論要實名制那實名制會不會變成就民眾彷彿因為看到有實名制他們反而放心了因為有經過實名制嘛我們不會應該不會做完全的實名制因為這個實名制會有侵犯到民眾隱私的狀況所以除了中國以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
567.193 |
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590.702 |
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其他主要國家應該都沒有做在網路上完全實施實名制我們是希望做類實名制就是譬如說購買一些比較敏感的產品的時候那必須做實名的認證還有就是說我們會希望透過數位憑證皮夾這種技術就是主動揭露譬如說你這個帳戶的擁有者是不是台灣人還是外國人這個地方我們希望這些平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
590.742 |
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605.74 |
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而且部長因為民眾最在意的還是就是他們不會被詐騙然後也不會誤信這些詐騙然後最重要是他們的畢生的積蓄不會因為詐騙然後一夕之間全沒了那再請NCC還有抒發部還有相關的各部會一起共同是我們會努力謝謝委員的指教謝謝 |