| IVOD_ID |
16653 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16653 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2025050287 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-07T11:30:03+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-07T13:29:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:58:57 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ebec65557fcf0aacb082e4479c6e2d21a14bfadd538e1bbbfd277a30f36f2751b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-07T12:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院財政委員會報告併案審查委員王鴻薇等26人、委員林德福等20人及委員賴士葆等20人分別擬具「預算法增訂第八十一條之一條文草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:30:03 - 13:29:00 |
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那我們按照議事規則就是我們先進行一次的討議協商那這個行政部門要不要表示一點意見處局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
5893.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
5919.637 |
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報告委員因為我們上次也針對這個有表示過意見那這個部分呢事實上今年實際產生的收支剩餘才1641那累計起來當然因為外在的環境和國家重點整個一個失政那現在又因為美國關稅的措施的影響還是不確定之際所以我們也希望說這個部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
5921.198 |
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5945.61 |
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能夠保留一個財政的一個韌性所以如果說我們在條文裡面給他訂說方方現金的話那這個部分呢將來將來變成例行性的這個部分仍然對我們整個一個財政的韌性是有影響所以這個部分針對委員所提增進條文的一個版本我們是不是請還是審慎來研議以上一個補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
5954.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
5970.048 |
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好謝謝主席還有我們各位委員還有我們主席處主席長和各位同仁那我的條文呢其實非常簡單就是說當這個這個說客收入啊時增數大於預算數的3000億的時候就辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
5972.987 |
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5991.839 |
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那個優先辦理普發現金還稅漁民那我們這次的條文裡面就是還有得福委員還有那個世保委員的條文其實我們三個委員我個人就另外兩個那個版本我認為也都非常好所以我覺得到時候比如說在門檻的部分我個人是採取開放的態度但是我覺得在方向上我是比較堅持 |
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6000.985 |
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6005.331 |
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因為這個跟說破壞財政韌性是完全沒有關係的因為我們有定一個門檻也就是在這個門檻之內它還是按照原來的就是你們這個編列預算但是當 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
6018.489 |
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6034.01 |
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当年的法定税科收入它有实际的超征而且超征到一个不管我想我这边讲的3000亿或者是宝哥这边讲的120%宝哥讲120%可能他那个金额会更大那金额更大 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
6034.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
6054.437 |
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那所以在這樣的一個狀況之下去做普發現金事實上呢還是沒有去動到原來就是原來你們的這個預算因為你們這個預算我剛剛講就是你們預算就是收支其實你們都有一定的除非你當時是亂編除非你是亂編 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
6057.478 |
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6068.006 |
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所以呢不管是在財政的穩定度來說或者所謂的財政韌性來說我覺得都沒有任何破壞因為我們會訂定一個門檻那3000億事實上超過3000億你看如果你沒有到3000億的時候呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
6074.15 |
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6092.482 |
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你其實還有很大的餘裕空間還有很多的稅計剩餘當年都可以有很多稅計剩餘可以用的但是你超過3000億的時候那你說這樣的一個稅收成果都完全不要來讓全民來做共享那我覺得實在是太過的吝嗇 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
6094.063 |
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6123.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
所以我必須在這邊要特別的來說明第一個我覺得我們的方向我是堅持但是這個門檻的高低我覺得我會尊重待會兒寶哥做出決議來第二個我們一定要特別的說明這絕對不會破壞所謂的財政韌性或者是我們的財政紀律因為這個是在預算你的預算收入達到一定的程度的時候才要做所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
6124.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
6127.83 |
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來做普發現金還稅於一名以上的說明 謝謝我想從這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
6144.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
6154.617 |
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2021、22、23它的這幾年的稅收啊實增數啊都大於整個原來的預算數你看2021 4,427億2022 4,950億2023 3,617億實增額啊都大於原來的預算的金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
6167.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
6192.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那我認為說今天你說這個財政紀律因為你是要超增你才會訂啊你要是今天沒有超增怎麼會去訂訂呢那我認為說怎麼做就是這個超增的部分花在刀口上那等一下我相信我們其他的委員也有提出一些不同的看法跟版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
6193.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
6214.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那我們等一下這個等都談過以後看怎麼做對人民最有利而且也認為符合當下應該要這樣做那你要是訂了以後你就說這也不是破壞整個財政的紀律啊所以說我認為這個還是可以好好的探討怎麼做最理想以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
6215.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
6242.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我的法案 我還說明一下 其實我的法案寫得很客氣啦這個超過 就達到120 就是超過120以上要辦理普發現金我認為是優先的 普發 我這裡沒有優先的 我是說你們用你們的錢 有一部分就普發現金普發多少 也是你們訂 行政部門訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
6244.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
6272.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
你要普發每一個人五千 每一個人一千 每一個人五百也都你們訂所以基本上來講的話 只是多一個多一個選項 你們在用用這個錢的時候 因為你差過這麼多是不是有一部分的就還給老百姓還多少也都你們訂的所以我的條文是非常寬鬆的啦沒有訂到沒有說特別強迫你們怎麼樣非常尊重行政部門的啦非常尊重行政部門的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
6273.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
6278.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
好 謝謝主席我想這個台灣民眾黨黨團我們內部有討論過因為我們當時也正在研擬所謂的普法獻金的法案所以應該是禮拜二我們黨團的決定是說現在我們今年針對超專的部分我們已經有了特別條例的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
6302.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
6325.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以我們會以特別條例為優先預算法的部分我們也討論過賴委員跟林德福委員還有紅衛的版本我們自己所提出來的所謂的超增之後的用途其實台灣民眾黨說得很清楚我們也希望說能夠照顧弱勢還有撥補相關的勞保這個比較像林德福委員的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
6326.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
6352.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
但是內容跟金額其實都會有一點的我們精算了很多次所以到目前為止黨團還沒有共識也還沒有提出自己的版本所以我們認為說今天這個版我們可能還是會有自己的意見所以我們暫時保留就是可能目前為止我們認為說以特別條例為優先因為預算法可能沒有這麼大的急迫性那等到我們的版本出來之後我們再會提出我們的版本 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
6356.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
6376.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
首先分成幾個部分來談預算法是什麼預算法是一個普通法它是一個原則性的法律我們在訂定法律的時候大概是三個角度來思考根據過去的經驗當下的狀況以及未來的需求所以當我們從這三個角度來思考今天預算法所提出的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
6377.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
6401.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
就會發現說他在對於總結過去經驗所產生的結論那個各個版本的差異相當大第二他對於眼前的狀況的評估大家覺得眼前的狀況要哪個為優先有不同的意見以及這個法定定之後他因應未來的局勢有什麼樣的因應的效果我們聽到我們看到的是如果按照目前的提案方式定下去會妨礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
6403.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
6427.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
影響我們因應未來的局勢如果一個法律案的提出它過去對過去經驗的總結有不一致的結論對當下的狀況有不同的評估對於未來的局勢我們怎麼透過這個通用性的法律去引以因應有所妨礙那我們要非常的謹慎那底下呢我再就三個部分三個點來論述一下為什麼今天我們在朝野協商的時候這個法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
6428.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
6447.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
在不同政黨有這些歧義當然我首先認同剛剛民眾黨所提出來的這個預算案不是現在當優先最需要來處理的先從三個點第一個點所謂的稅收時增數超出預算數額它的意義是什麼它代表的是整年度的財政有剩餘嗎不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
6449.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
6469.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
如果按照我們所說的稅收時增額超過預算額我們就要透過法律條文的規定認為它就是我們的財政有剩餘要注意強制去做分配那未來在編列預算的時候我們只要把數字調整一下就好啦我們都估計每年的預計稅收都給它高估就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
6470.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
6488.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那預計稅收高估你所在得到的實徵數絕對不可能超過嘛那既然沒有超過就不會發生我們這個法律條件所生效的說要將這個當作是稅計當作是財政剩餘來做分配所以首先第一點對於所謂的稅收實徵數超過預算數額 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
6491.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
6509.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這不是一個客觀可以從第三方預先判定而且可以說事後去究責的它可以透過一個一個裁判的過程讓這個事情條件永遠不會發生所以如果一個法律它所設定的發生要件是可以透過一些人為事前的操控就讓它不注意發生那這個法律條文定了就沒有意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
6510.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
6535.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
第二個我們來看一下那第二個是什麼呢?到底所謂的稅收超減的意義跟現在這個法條它要解決的問題是什麼?我們看到幾個他說要解決什麼?解決要減少債務舉措要解決照顧弱勢或易住保險基金然後呢最後跑出一個特定用途叫做普發現金首先我們看到在預算法當中對於這些事情的解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
6536.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
6563.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
債務的舉措在什麼樣的財政條件下必須優先處理債務在我們的公共債務法當中就法有明定啊你現在想要做的事情在既有的法條裡面都有規定了嘛你要減少債務那在公共債務法裡面就規定什麼情況之下你必須優先解決我們政府的債務這個無帶一個預算法當中在一個通則性的規定去互相抵觸嘛那至於說要照顧弱勢或抑制保險基金那任何的社會保險基金它都有法源的 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
6564.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
6592.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那他對於這個保險基金要怎麼樣去處理他有他的規定那我們有個預算法的通則性的法律對於所有的保險基金做統一性的規定這個呢 顯有未當那再來呢 最後那當然繼續照顧入社這個問題我們就談第三點第三點 那現在這個法案所要解決的問題現實上除了法律另有規定之外其實大法另有規定之外有沒有既有的法制可以因當時的情況做當下的決定有像特別條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
6593.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
6616.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
每次我們提出特別預算重大的特別預算都是因應當前突發的或特定的事項我們要解決所以我們透過制定特別預算制定特別條例通過特別預算來去解決這個是本來就在我們預算法當中所允許我們用特別預算所以在預算法當中也對於特別條例當中特別預算的編定它使用的用途 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
6616.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
6642.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
也有做一些原則性的規範所以確保我們為了因應特定證物所要通過的特別條例以及因此而編列的特別預算不會去抵觸我們目前預算法當中通則性的規定所以預算法既然是一個通則性的規定也去侷限了其他相關證物所需要的法律的制定的權利的時候我們在自己的預算法當中把這樣的一個彈性跟韌性自我的設限 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
6643.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
6671.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那就很奇怪嘛所以目前呢剛剛我們民眾黨黨團的黃委員提到說如果真的有需要普發現金這個事情可以討論但是這個普發現金這個事情是每年嗎每年嗎還是說預有需要的時候我們可以來提那過往的經驗告訴我們普發現金這個事情曾經發生過透過特別預算特別條例的制定透過特別預算的編列我們一樣可以達到這樣的一個效果所以我們來看一下從實證上來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
6674.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
6699.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
僅僅說稅計剩餘它只是單一年度預算執行的成果我們在第287頁我們回到這裏寫了過去的13個會計年度當中有7個年度呢是透過扣除債務還本之後的收支剩餘其他的就沒有所以表示什麼我剛才第一大部分講了三個點第一個過往的經驗總結可以得出我們認為稅收時增速超過預算數額就有代表財政剩餘嗎沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
6700.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
6720.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
沒有這樣的情況啊過去的經驗告訴我們一般的情況不是啊所以在這種情況之下我們從行政機關所提出來的說明已經可以看到了那最後我要強調一點就在這個上面的說明的第六點其實納入預算法常態化去規範限定用途無法保持彈性難以因應外在環境的變化及國家施政的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
6721.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
6737.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這也就是我們特別條例特別預算之所以存在的原因所以我認為今天大家提案者所提出的目的其實呢是可以透過特別預算去解決何苦要用預算法的修訂讓它讓我們的整個財政失去了這樣的原理最後呢我的發言時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
6739.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
6760.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
最後還是提一下其實我們可以參考看看公司法跟證券交易法當中對於私人資本公司它有股東權益有員工福利這個其實當中對於公司的剩餘盈餘是不是要列入資本公積還是要提列準備這個都有相關的法律去做因應所以我是覺得就算是用私人的公司的財塊來看我們政府的財塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
6762.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
6784.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
其實政府的國家的財政會計更需要比一般的公司或上市會公司更需要握有能夠及時的因應國家社會的需要的這樣的一個韌性所以如果真的要比照公司法或證券交易法把特別的當年度的公司營餘怎麼樣的限定用途我是覺得這兩個法的程式是大不相同的可以一併來參酌 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
6787.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
6814.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我再補充一下喔 這個也沒有像各位講的好像洪水本受一樣啦 沒這麼嚴重啦你就某程度強迫財政部編那個預算的時候 編緊一點啦你不要忘了每一次我是稅率 我說加個一千億他說不要啦 他說只能加一百億而已啊五十億啊 他就哇哇叫結果還是超成幾千億啊某種程度就是財政紀律就是強迫你一定要編好 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
6816.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
6827.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那時候開工另外一個學者講他說如果改一改就很好 改什麼經濟成長率跟稅收成長率像去年經濟成長率4% 稅收成長率8%這代表稅收真的增加很多這學者講的啊這代表你們很有問題啊你們就抓在手上啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
6839.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
6859.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
某種程度強迫你要編得準就不會發生了嘛以我的愛來講就超徵120%就永遠不會超你永遠不會發現金了嘛對不對就是那些某種程度也是個Penalty所以你亂編你一直低估我不知道為什麼要低估一定要把它編得很低是有領獎金嗎 還是怎麼樣跳高那一套編得很低很低 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
6860.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
6884.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
然後 喔 達成好棒喔 超出這麼多喔 好棒棒就變成這樣 強迫你編得好啊你編得好就不會發現金 這個條例就沒用了嘛但這個條例有沒有必要編呢 我覺得有必要啊這是特別條例 是特別條例的問題這是一個堅弄的東西 堅弄的是強迫你財政部在編稅率的時候 你好好去考慮經濟成長率好好去估了準 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
6885.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
6897.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
就很清楚看得到今年就以113年的時候他的經濟成長率4%他的稅收成長率8%這個就超收了 怎麼沒超收呢這個就超收了 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
6899.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
6927.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
這個就超錯了 經濟生命就這樣子 為什麼稅務資深這麼多你以為拿槍去搶錢怎麼會錢資深這麼多這時候你要發現金發多少你決定 你可以發五百每個人發五百就好了 發一千也可以啊發一點點 沒有說一定要發多少啊而且我的提案這麼輕 這麼寬鬆耶應辦理普發現金 也沒有說優先說一定要普發現金 但是一定要普發現金放在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
6928.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
6942.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
是這樣的一個概念啦 我覺得這樣好不好這個大家的意見都表達了 我想今天大公司不容易喔我們就把它送運會吧 好不好好 送運會吧 比較簡單啦因為大家意見不一樣嘛 我們就送運會好 送協商 送協商 |