| IVOD_ID |
16652 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16652 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-07T08:30:42+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-07T12:21:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:50:18 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcbec65557fcf0aacb29fb70b9de5aca0414bfadd538e1bbbf9de927d59314b5815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心指揮官、內政部警政署署長、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「臺灣遭聯合國警示為東亞、東南亞跨國詐欺集團據點之檢討與防範，及打詐四法與相關子法施行後之具體成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【5月5日及7日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:42 - 12:21:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1908.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1935.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
好 我們現在繼續開會那首先介紹到場委員 還有硬要練習官員在場委員 王毅川委員好 我們接著介紹到場官員市長院副秘書長 王梅英副秘書長法務部鄭明謙部長調查局陳百利局長行政院打詐指揮中心指揮官馬世元指揮官內政部張榮鑫署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1939.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1953.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好 其餘未及介紹的列席代表請參議院名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本日會議排定邀請市長院副秘書長法務部長等機關率所屬相關單位列席就台灣招聯合國警示為 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1955.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1970.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
東亞、東南亞跨國詐欺集團據點自檢討及防範及達到司法相關執法實施後的具體成效進行專題報告並被質詢現在進行報告,每位發言時間3分鐘我們請司法院副秘書長、王副秘書長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1979.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2004.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
主席 各位委員 各位先進 還有各位媒體記者 大家早安本院奉邀列席報告資究本院業務有關的部分報告如下 敬請指教第一 為了使犯罪調查手段可以隨科技發展進進並兼顧人民基本權益的保障刑事訴訟法特殊強制處分的新制 業經大院三讀通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2005.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2035.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
总统于113年7月31号公布为了配合新制施行本院办理下列的业务第一点本院召开了三次咨询会议收集实物现行侦查工具需求的情况还有各机关内部作业规范在114年1月14号发布了刑事诉讼特殊强制处分执行办法并召开研讨会 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2036.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2037.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
工作省减变 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2039.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2066.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
法律適用的參考第二點本院在法院的審判系統呢新增了特殊強制處分的案由字別及許可書等立稿供各法院辦案參考並持續規劃建置專用系統第三自113年8月到114年3月間呢各地方法院辦理特殊強制處分的案件呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2067.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2082.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
新收總共898件終結760件其中裁定准許的有580件准許率達到近八成那對東亞東南亞跨國詐欺集團追查還有犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2084.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2112.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
詐欺犯罪行為的防制呢和國際司法互助相關依據國際刑事司法互助法的規定現行有關司法互助的事項呢它是以外交部或者是法務部為聯繫窗口法院辦理跨國詐欺集團案件如果有調查取證的必要會依該法第30條規定檢附請求書跟相關文件經法務部轉請外交部辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2113.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2133.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
打在司法施行之後呢本院持續透過宣導及教育訓練方式強化法官審理事類案件的賠例以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝各位好謝謝我們下一位請法務部鄭明謙部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2139.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2168.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士 先生 各位媒體 大家早安今天奉邀列席 貴委員會做列席專欄的一個列席報告並被質詢自就報告如下 請您指教本部身為打詐國家對懲詐面向的主宰機關持續督導抬高建築 帶領檢警調機關結合其他打詐國家對成員以嚴懲詐欺犯罪集團打擊跨境詐欺犯罪及落實犯罪被害人保護為三大重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2171.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2191.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那溯源追查核心主案嚴懲詐欺的犯罪集團那懲詐的具體作為本部持續督導抬高監規劃專案加強查緝再加上地檢署同步制止指揮專案行動藉由中央地方共同合作同步掃蕩詐欺犯罪採取聯合跨部會查緝欺欺欺詐欺 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2194.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2208.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
模式二嚴懲重罰詐欺犯罪具體求刑並適時提起上訴強制納管並加強查緝虛擬資產及第三方支付詐欺等懲詐的具體作為那懲詐的具體的成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2213.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2226 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
請參閱書面報告那回顧一三年的執法成效相較於一二年不論是查或詐欺集團數被告人數及羈押人數皆有大幅成長那抬高檢數統合執法機關近一四年第一波的懲詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2227.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2254.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
查獲的含起訴三千一百八十件四二四五二四人這個是含車所二九八六人那羈押六百六十三人成效亮眼特別是台北地監署查獲詐騙金額一百五十七億餘元被害人五千零八十人起訴被告八十人新署及台中等各地監署瓦解幫派組織所主導的詐欺犯罪集團相較查緝數據請查內書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2259.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2280.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
因應詐欺犯罪持續朝國際化發展本部積極洽簽國際司法互助合作目前也簽署民行司法互助條約協定及備忘錄請參列書面包圍因東南亞詐欺熱區深化國際合作打擊黑幫及集黨犯罪建構跨部會打擊跨境詐欺平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2281.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2303.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
同省政府間懲詐政策及資源強化打擊跨境的詐欺的一個犯罪那本部加強查過犯罪所得偵查中變價拍賣偵查及審判中調和解等三面向提高罪障房的比例若是被犯罪被害人的一個保護相關具體成效再查過不法所得變價 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2304.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2325.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
拍賣及防法犯罪所的GO具體成長那本部將在行政院的帶領下督導抬高檢署善用打詐事法配合打詐綱領2.0持續團結打詐組織提升打詐策略進行打詐業務擴大查緝面向加大查緝力道遏止查緝犯罪以上報告敬請指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2333.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2354.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好那請問其餘機關有沒有要做口頭報補充沒有好謝謝各位那結論代表報告完畢那相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄我們現在開始進行詢答那本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2361.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2379.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那我們現在開始進行詢問我們首先請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席 有請法務部部長麻煩部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2387.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2412.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
委員長部長早今天召委針對有關於聯合國事業的時候所出的調查報告排了這一個專案我看了法務部的報告我必須要說跟我看完聯合國的報告兩者之間有嚴重的斷裂感 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2413.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2438.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
為什麼我說兩者之間有嚴重的斷裂感因為在聯合國的報告當中所呈現出來的一些關鍵的問題在法務部的報告當中我都沒有看到一些適度的回應所以我一開始一個最基本的問題是法務部在準備今天的專案報告以前這份聯合國的報告看過嗎這個有 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2443.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2455.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這邊聯合國的報告看過嗎有這部分我有看過你有看過嗎部長看完這個報告以後覺得這個報告有沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2457.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2472.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這部分的確是有提到就是有四個案例是跟台灣有關那裡面我們有就試圖的去做一個了解一個了解這裡面有四個案就第一個是一個部長我們一個一個來好了這樣子問題的層次會比較清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2479.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2505.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這個聯合國出這份報告的單位應該是打擊毒品跟犯罪的辦公室嘛是我們國家跟這個辦公室有聯繫過嗎有任何的互動交流嗎這個我們沒有這個從來沒有任何互動交流有嗎這個要有警政署因為法務部這要看警政署有沒有在請警政署有跟他們互動過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2507.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2534.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
沒有嘛 剛剛署長在下面說沒有嘛因為我們一個一個來啦我老實說啦身為一個台灣人我看完聯合國的這份報告以後我心情很難過台灣怎麼會被聯合國的報告描述成一個這樣的地方我為什麼說我心情很難過啊我一個一個代部長看來在這個聯合國的報告當中啊對於台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2535.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2547.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
他是怎麼標示的來請部長看右下角這個地圖這個報告你看過你應該熟啊他後面寫個台灣後面寫POC POC是什麼這個這個這個這個我我我對這個我沒有去注意到這個POC的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2562.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2589.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
部長你不是說你看過報告嗎我看過就是最主要的是因為我們有做一個來來來我再往下看你說你地圖沒看沒有關係來看一下內文右上角BG1是一個被他所沒有點名的集團他那個集團來你看右上角他說這是在二十幾年前在台灣POC所設立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2591.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2611.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
部長看到這個POC的時候不會覺得很奇怪嗎?這POC指的是什麼?很抱歉我是看那個翻譯的你是看翻譯的?那部裡面的同仁他怎麼翻譯給你的?台灣POC他怎麼翻的? |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2617.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2624.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
布長你跟我說你看過,你看翻譯本沒有關係,我好奇的是布裡面的統人,台灣POC是怎麼翻給你看的? |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2626.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2654.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這我想這個委員吼我會在這個我有看過整個一個一個整個要職吼這個裡面就是說他這跟台灣有關其實他講這四個案例這個四個案例就是說他比如說他那個負責人他那個一個一個一個部長啊對不起我還是打斷一下啦我們一個城市一個城市的問題啦我想我們不要再去談這個POC喔POC他對我們中華民國是一個是一個不禮貌的一個稱呼啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2655.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2674.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那所以部長你顯然知道POC是什麼嗎?這個我想這個委員你是何必在這邊問我齁那我想奇怪我在這邊問你這個問題有很過分嗎?對你要問的不是這樣問說我們跟台灣就是我們國家這四個案例最主要是四個案例不是啊剛剛部長你說我不必要在這邊問你但 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2676.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2698.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這個牽涉到台灣的國歌啊這個聯合國它這裡面的一個寫法本來就是對台灣是不友善的是非常好你說得非常好嘛所以部長你明明就知道POC是什麼這個我才說台灣跟這個辦公室是不是有任何的互動當出現這樣子的國家報告對台灣不友善的時候別人對我們不友善我們自己要有立場嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2699.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2715.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
其實我要講的就是這一句話啦這個就是我們是標示我們是中華民國嘛是啊那他顯然就不是這樣標示嘛這個我想這個委員都清楚我想這個不禮貌的這個對台灣很不友善的一個稱呼那我想這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2717.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2742.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所以我們就這部分的我們就來研究說這部分到底裡面到底四個案例嘛那我們有看過這四個案例委員大概也應該也看過嘛這個是案例就是說他的負責人或者是說那些跟台灣以前有二十幾年就以前有關這裡面我們很注意看這裡面到底有沒有人名有沒有公司的名稱有沒有查證的方向這個對我們來講我們是很有興趣去做一個瞭解啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2742.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2767.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以到目前為止了解的狀況怎麼樣我現在就一個問題一個問題來啦剛第一個我其實要跟部長講的是說啊聯合國這樣標示我們任何台灣人看了都會不高興嗎其實我只是要make一個point我們的政府要有反應如此而已第二個部分就剛剛啊部長說要去了解這個business group one他們所標示的 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2768.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2792.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
BG-1指的是哪一個集團?現在法務不了解的狀況如何?有辦法特定是哪一個集團嗎?他這個因為他這個沒辦法去查證去查證因為他是有提到聯合國出的報告沒有辦法查證那問題大了他這個20多年前在台灣成立嘛那也移到中南亞或其他國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2793.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2820.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我國只是早期的註冊來 看一下 副部長 請你看一下我為什麼要把原文標出來你看一下右下角的你看右上角沒錯啊 它是二十幾年前在台灣成立的嘛一個非常線上非常大的博弈集團嘛線上非常大的博弈集團從台灣出發然後擴展到東南亞各國 這個是右上角那一段講的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2821.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2835.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我有興趣的是右下角的那一段右下角的那一段說這個集團到目前為止包括在台灣還設立了非常多的紙上公司在從事非法的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2836.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2853.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
今天我們看一個聯合國的報告第一個如果這個聯合國的報告寫得不實那我們應該要有國家的態度嘛第二個如果這個聯合國的報告寫出了我們自己的檢調沒有掌握的部分那我們就應該要去了解嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2853.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2872.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
這個才是實事求是的方法嘛所以第三個我要問的事情是說他說BG1的這個集團在目前在台灣還設有很多紙上公司這件事情法務部我們的檢調或者是行政院打詐中心還是警政署有進行任何了解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2874.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2900.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
這個裡面有提到就是有些集團上海集團就是跟以台灣為基地的三合會那這部分那個那個是下一頁啦請你針對一個一個問題回答嘛你講的這些都是什麼這都是沒有具體的一個所以你認為這個聯合國的報告沒有具體的內容嗎沒有具體的一個一個人名公司名嘛那當然所以無從追查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2901.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2906.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
聯合國這份報告的品質顯然大有問題嘛按照部長你今天的態度基本上就是這個樣子嘛這個我們會請那個調查局來持續今天調查局有來嗎來請調查局 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2923.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2934.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
部長看起來不是很熟啦局長應該比較熟啊他右下角所講的說在台灣還有一些紙上公司調查局有去了解嗎我們現在正在試圖要去了解當中需要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2936.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2962.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
呃...我這個我不敢給委員一個很明確的...我...我這樣說好了啦我會認真的...認真的去...今天...沒有關係啦你...你齁可以繼續講形容詞這個我都尊重啦我只想跟法務部跟調查局講一個共同的概念任何看完這一份聯合國調查報告的人會覺得你們今天所提出來的書面報告沒有回應到它裡面所指出來的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2963.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2985.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
第一個任何看完這份報告的人會覺得你們今天所提出來的報告沒有回應到他的問題那當然我這樣的評價對還是不對所有的人大家都有眼睛都可以去閱讀都可以去思考有人會說看完了以後如果我講的不對那我自然而然會受到社會輿論的指責嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2987.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3015.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
說黃國昌你胡說八道我們法務部的報告我們調查局的報告對聯合國的這份報告其實做了非常充分的回應有人或許會有這樣的想法我不知道但我負責任的講我看完這份報告了以後我必須要說不管是法務部的報告還是聯合還是調查局今天提出來的報告其實都沒有在回應講不及格三個字啊或許太沉重了來第二個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3017.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3041.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
BG-1它上面提到跟台灣黑道目前的合作關係這個合作關係調查局有去了解嗎我們現在都是這個報告對我們來說其實都很新我們之前確實是沒有去注意到這一份報告這個報告什麼時候出版的4月的時候4月嘛所以 昭緯其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3043.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3061.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
也蠻有眼光的啊挑了一份你們之前沒有注意到的報告提醒你們注意這份報告是在上次委員會的時候好像是王宏威委員他第一次提出我們才注意到有這份報告我們必須要很誠實的說那我們也馬上去找到這份報告來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3063.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3081.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那報告的內容其實他聯合國他也有一個很明確的說法說這個是他的員工還有就是說他聯合國也沒有經過證實這一整個報告的內容但是我們還是很重視等一下局長我去建議你啦你的意思是說聯合國出了這個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3082.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3108.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
但他沒有確認這個報告的內容 這個事情很大條是在他報告裡面寫的 我們都看過了但是我們對他報告的內容所指出跟我們台灣有關的部分我們仍然相當相當的重視OK 沒關係啦 之前沒有注意到嘛因為委員的質詢讓你們注意到嘛我們很謝謝委員 謝謝那現在開始要去追蹤啦 我們拭目以待啦給你們一點時間啦 讓你們有時間去注意到 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3109.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3133.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
因為包括了裡面這個Red Dragon到底指的是哪一個幫派以及接下來在這個聯合國的報告下面台灣的國際形象我必須要說啦對台灣的國際形象傷害蠻大的如果裡面的報告有不實的部分那就希望法務部跟調查局發一個正式的聲明嚴正 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3134.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3162.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
的駁斥那如果裡面有報告是你們該知道卻沒有知道的事情有這個情資啊就進一步繼續啊往下追因為針對有關於來台灣這一邊啊設立不管是詐騙集團洗錢的網絡利用金融科技當作名義成立的公司啊事實上事實上在報告裡面甚至連公司的名字你真的要去找的話其實是找得出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3162.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3186.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
其實是找得出來在台灣設立了好幾年到去年的時候10月才突然宣布停業但沒有關係法務部也好調查局也好說上個月之前沒有注意到最近注意到這個報告願意去收集是好事最後的時間我只想請問一下法務部我們吹哨者保護法如期上路準備好了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3187.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3210.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
這不有廉政署在準備執法的一個釘釘吹哨者保護法是為了保護吹哨人嗎如果今天吹哨者向廉政署去檢舉的話廉政署應該揭露吹哨者的身份嗎這個吹哨者身份是要保密的啊這個吹哨者身份是要保護的嗎好來 請部長看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3213.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3233.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
民眾向廉政署檢舉說請政署有人扶抱加班費那剛剛部長回答了我第一個問題廉政署不應該洩漏檢舉員的身份給原單位這個基本的原則沒有問題嗎這個檢舉的 如果說檢舉原單位當然是不應該去是嗎 是不適合去 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3241.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3267.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那個不是不適合 根本就不應該嘛剛剛你回答的答案就很標準嘛 來請部長回去瞭解結果 廉政署處理的方式是直接叫內政部警政署保安警察第二大隊第二總隊第一大隊直接回函給檢舉員直接告訴警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3268.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3295.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
保安警察隊到底是誰檢舉的啊?這個是現在廉政署處理事情的SOP嗎?那個公文的字號114年3月19號保二一督制地114001942號函廉政署轉給保二直接請保二回函給檢舉人我現在就看不懂了 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3296.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3312.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
因為有人來跟我投訴啊跟廉政署檢舉結果廉政署處理的方法是叫寶二回函給檢舉人那不就讓寶二知道是誰檢舉的嗎這個是目前廉政署處理的SOP嗎這個是不是屬於 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3313.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3339.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
接避者保護法裡面的檢舉齁這個我不清楚齁這要做一個個案齁那這一件所以你的意思是什麼這一件事不是我不清楚齁那沒有關係你不清楚我給你時間了解部長一個禮拜之內回覆好不好可以嗎這個這個是不是我們再請那個那個廉政署來是啊廉政署不是在法務部轄下嗎我有理解錯誤嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3340.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3368.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
所以我這個事情問法務部部長很過分嗎我給法務部一個禮拜的時間回去了解清楚廉政署可以這樣幹嗎這樣時間還不夠這樣時間還不夠充分嗎這個是不是一個月一個月這麼簡單的事情要一個月喔這個還要公文王牌還要算 因為這個已經到那個警政署沒關係啊 看多少時間啊我讓召委才是這麼簡單的事情要一個月好 謝謝那我們盡快啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3374.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3392.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
請教部長可以加快速度嗎那我們就半個月兩個禮拜黃委員部長說兩週給你好那再麻煩部長謝謝部長那我們現在補充宣告上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們接著請王逸川委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3405.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3432.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
主席我們請這個打造中心的指揮官跟警政署署長麻煩署長還有打造中心指揮官好請問一下這個打造中心具體的工作內容是什麼跟委員報告因為我們是行政院的幕僚協調單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3434.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3463.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
所以我們最主要的工作是各部會有關打仗相關的工作那如果有跨部會的協調的一個需要的話我們會配合行政院的政委然後來跟各部會協調而且管控我們在打仗綱領2.0裡面所有的工作指標好你們在報告裡頭寫到說第三方支付業者電商跟線上遊戲業者啊必須善盡善良管理人的責任對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3464.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3483.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這部分的成效怎麼樣?我們現在在這個部分的話是分別有各部門各部會我知道,但是你是一個平台嘛那成效怎麼樣?目前我們在打電商的部分我們現在打炸的成果就是它已經在下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3484.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3504.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
然後有關於剛剛提到第三方支付的部分我們現在還有一些灰色地帶還要處理尤其是在這個我們現在有平台就是所謂的網購平台上面利用第三方支付詐騙的那這個部分我們現在在跟第三方支付的主管機關那他們有善盡善良管理人責任嗎跟委員報告那個可能要看個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3505.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3519.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
要看個案不是 你當一個指揮官嘛你整體評價嘛這業者有沒有善盡責任嘛如果沒有善盡責任我們在法規上要怎麼處理在行政上要怎麼處理嘛報委現在依法他一定要善盡責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3520.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3525.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
對啊我知道你報告也寫叫他煽盡責任啊但是你是指揮官啊你終於可以給現在的狀況給個評價啊說他們還沒有煽盡啊還沒有做好啊不然那個錢為什麼會一直被騙出去騙出去就叫他煽盡了然後呢他說我有煽盡啊可是錢還一直出去一直騙出去我們這指揮官總要有一個態度啊說你這樣做不夠啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3544.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3561.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
各位報告我們如果有發現任何的業者他在善盡責任這塊不足的時候我們一定會要求主管機關去處理這句話很好你們要求了多少次各位報告我們每個月我們都會每兩個月我們都會有跨部會的協調會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3563.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3584.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那還有跟地方政府的協調會議所以在每一次的協調會議裡面我們都會列管只要是跟部會執行這些打詐司法有關的我們都會要求那請問第三番之務電商跟線上遊戲業者這一個最沒有善盡善良管理人責任的業者是公開資訊嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3585.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3613.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
你們可以提醒國人說 利用對手的第三方支付 危險救營善盡責任 他們都沒有省對手的線上遊戲 危險 錢會被騙了這個是公開資訊嗎跟委員報告 這個部分如果說主管機關有裁罰的話 就是公開資訊所以要等主管機關那有彙整到你們這裡來嗎目前我們還沒有收到 我們有請主管機關要裁罰這什麼時候開始做的這是打詐事法 通過之後我們會要求那你們會公開嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3615.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3640.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
你們會統計嗎我們會我們會好那你們內部會議的時候會呈現嗎我們會那內部會議呈現會是公開資訊嗎目前內部會議的資訊我們沒有辦法公開好那我剛剛提到說會診完到內部會議嘛對不對你們這個打造這個中心相關的會議各部會有來這個會議嘛那這些資訊我可以看得到哪一個第三方志願者從那裡轉走最多錢嗎跟委員不要講我啦國人啦國人可以看得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3645.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3668.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
因為跟委報第三方支付業者他轉走錢的前端他還有受詐的那個過程就是詐騙集團本身是利用第三方支付業者那我可不可以知道哪一個第三方支付業者透過那個出去最多這會不會是公開資訊跟委報這個部分我們可以跟金管會來言商你們言商一下因為既然你們開會也不是秘密 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3668.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3692.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
你們也不是秘密會議 議會的人也應該蠻多的大家都看過 看過口耳相傳透過那個最危險 以後大家不要再用那一種支付了不可以怕你們知道 不可以怕你們開胃知道我們不去開胃我們都不知道那到底可以公開到什麼地步再請你們去研究一下好 謝謝委員第二個 我請問一下這個警政署這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3695.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3698.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
警示帳戶啊,就是說有人去用詐騙啊早去判處所,早去分局報案嘛去報案後,報案去到偵查隊嘛,一般都到偵查隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3707.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3720.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
請問署長你知不知道現在各分局偵查隊今天在辦詐騙的這個員警啊 批御本命你知道嗎知道 確實是非常嚴重非常嚴重嘛齁 所以很多人都不可以去偵查隊嘛 對不對沒有錯也不可以去白鴨嘛 也不可以去偵查隊因為那公允枉反啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3726.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3729.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
確實是目前的狀況對不對 調這個資料 調那個資料 有時候都跨出警政署大家調來調去 都沒辦法結案嘛 一個案子都要抹很久的民眾也沒辦法諒解 說你警察一個創社會 把你報案報那麼久 都查不到這個怎麼解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3744.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3761.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
包委員現在對於政黨隊這個警力我們有在做這一個研議補充的這個措施包括如果說有缺有不足的會用替代的這個警力會先補不足未來在訓練的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3761.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3784.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
啊或者是留住人才的部分會再提高他的業務的工作的簡化或者是這一些提高他的這個行事家庭現在正在營利當中那我們在上次的一個在這邊的一個內委會的時候也有委員做這樣的執行我們在三個月裡面會來研議這個整個的一個一個促進形式的這個習慣加速來做解決這個問題偵查隊同仁喔 給我歡迎啦 說好啊這樣喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3789.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3796.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那你們提到2月4號你們現在已經有一些電子化了的一個平台我們直接給它動來前是紙本現在用電子化就減少這個就是這個公文往返的效率我現在另外一個課題是這樣這個我最近在做選民服務的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3818.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3828.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
一堆民眾 他就描述 他說有一間投資公司這投資公司一開始賺20萬 後來又賺50萬 後來又賺20萬他剛才說30秒後 整群都說你當了詐騙民眾都知道 你當了詐騙 可是那個人堅持他說我沒有被詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3842.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3854.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我現在人家跟我說我如果再繼續投入那個錢就可以拿回來了然後全部人阻止他喔那是一個選民服務的場合喔好我現在講的是這個那你到了金融機構以後金融機構我們現在我們現在的客人去嫁郵局啦譬如說現在我幾十萬人去嫁郵局郵局很優秀的嘛就說你這個錢哪裡來的你怎麼這個錢啊你怎麼這麼多錢啊都問這些問題問題是為什麼有民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3871.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3900.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
他領了十萬又再領了二十萬又再領了五十萬總共被騙了一兩百萬那結果我們的金融機構啊欸 也是陸陸續續被抓走這警政署你們有辦法做什麼嗎有啦 報告委員現在就是說金融機構的主張我們跟金管會就是有做這個合作就是這個行員覺得這個是一個詐騙的一個這個現象的時候第一時間一定會通知我們拍手到達現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3901.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3905.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
去做解決我們的行員我知道會通知派出所去研究 去做處理對 這你們的功格都有 我都知道我現在的事也是都這樣做對 我知道 我去嫁錢 我如果去嫁錢他也會吃下手啦 這我都知道現在連開戶也很下手他說奇怪 你也沒有住一家 你也沒有一家吃頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3922.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3927.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
你怎麼知道我們這裡開戶 問這些問題這都善意了啦好 對 我知道這個大家都理解 因為走去等到那些詐騙可是我的意思是說 為什麼有那個民眾啊他領了可能一個年十萬 年二十萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3939.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3950.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那這個行員可能就提醒他說你這個領了領了可是這個行員看不到他在別的金融機構的記錄嘛對不對他可能這個領十五萬 那個領十萬 那個領十萬他陸陸續續去領差不多一兩百萬出來系統也不會警示啊 現在要改觀委員現在系統會警示啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3959.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3986.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
現在金管會現在就是對於這些金融機構對於這些警示帳戶有可疑的或透過我們的這個通報的就是有警示的帳戶他就知道說這個虎頭是有可能是做人就是詐騙的這個帳戶有人回錢進來不是他捏錢出去不是回錢進來捏錢出去可能就是他會看他的這個領出去的這個動機到底是怎麼樣不是我現在說我在A銀行領了15萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3989.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3996.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
過了一個禮拜我在B銀行領了20萬再過三天我在C銀行領了10萬系統會不會警示 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3999.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4004.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
這個部分恐怕就 如果說不是警示賬戶的話就不會進去啊所以他被騙的人啦 要投資詐騙嘛 投資詐騙啊被騙的人要10萬 20萬 可能分成 因為可能去這間銀行 新的銀行說啊你上禮拜才20萬 你這個不能再唸喔 你這個夫人派出算命來說你不能再唸 他就回去了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4019.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4037.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
他跑去北京這幾個名詞 這種投資詐騙一個名詞叫做潛在的被害人他被騙的時間大概長達兩個月或甚至半年以上我們去跟他勸了之後他也認為我們是阻止他投資的對就請不起來嘛這個區塊我們現在有兩個層次就是我們發現這個就是這潛在被害人我們拍照第一時間就去跟他說你這是詐騙的他如果不聽的時候我們就把他趕走 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4048.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4069.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
因為量有時候是多 就是員警先 第一時間先去去勸不行的時候幹部再去勸再來配合他的家屬去勸不然他就回去了嘛 你這間不給我領我就去北京借定存 我定存出來之後我也是去投資 再20萬 再投資下去所以到最後它會是一個累積 一個數字啦那這種 應該打造中心指揮官在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4071.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4084.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
這研究一下,因為這種案子現在算蠻多的我覺得這個部分就是有,因為這個部份主要是金融事故,這個各銀行的這個整個連線那些東西,我們會提打到中心來研究啦,來研究看這個可以連線嗎因為聽起來,聽起來很可憐的啦,他喔,我告訴你,他說的時候,專長的人都知道他用詐騙喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4094.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4102.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
他再問我說 委員你怎麼幫我請律師 要請到一位律師我說你律師他又開下去 你又再一條就是他不知道 他自己簽不起來了所以我說 你們現在選團做得不錯所以整個民眾都知道他說的是去用詐騙可是怕那個人不知道我覺得這種現在的狀況啊 搞不好還是很嚴重 然後到最後就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4117.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4125.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
成立自救會 到最後也拿不回什麼錢我跟委員報告 委員今天這個執行議題非常好我們把這個潛在的備案拿到行政院去做專報我們在這個議題有請行政院做專報要來做怎麼樣各部會來做一起來共同解決好 最後一個課題 主席再給我三分鐘就是說我們現在有加一個人要去參加什麼員工旅遊 去泰國 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4145.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4153.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
阿瑪對朋友的公司去泰國員工旅遊,到這裡幾公里再去不是泰國的地方嘛,跑去什麼園區裡面就對了我們在機場啊,在台灣的機場,有沒有成功攔下多少人?說你不要去,這團是詐騙的,有沒有能夠攔下來?委員,整團是沒有,但是個別攔了很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4170.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4191.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
個別就是從今年的元月到四月我們基金我們透過選投透過他要去買票到比較高風險的國家我不要講對的國家 高風險的國家 藍道的國家我們藍道的大概目前人家給我知道藍道有八九位都個別的但是整團的沒有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4193.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4210.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
沒有那個整團啊整團目前為止是沒有遇到整團事實上去到東南寮有一些比較這些那個詐團的這個地方平常講他們要去的只是自己本身都知道他出去是要去做詐騙的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4212.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4229.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
是喔本身你就知道他就是要去做詐騙的方法大部分大部分喔大部分所以說像這種零星個案的這一種是會有但是我們目前為止沒有發現整團的 整團說整個都爆棄了我聽過一種是這樣就是說他現在這間公司在辦員工旅遊嘛這個員工他就做他們朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4236.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4246.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
朋友就帶他們公司去員工旅遊,或是什麼普及島,幾天幾夜,都寫得很好聽,去到後面就坐遊覽車,我們出國去,我們怎麼知道遊覽車在哪一國,我們搞不清楚,就坐到那裡去了,後面就去到原區,那些人就是帶他們朋友去員工旅遊,家長也說要帶他們朋友出國去玩 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4260.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4260.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我希望這個看在機場能夠攔阻多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4278.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4279.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
謝謝王委員 下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4309.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4331.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
主席 在場的委員先進 列席政府金管署長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體 記者 女士先生有請打造中心指揮官 馬事員 馬指揮官請馬指揮官那麼另外警政署 速發部 通傳會和金管會都有一位來協助我們指揮官來答覆金管會可能是跟銀行局比較有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4338.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4356.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我們要完善農會帳戶系統關懷機制還有我們實名制下架的廣告其實防詐是名存實亡對不起是名是實名制的名來我們看一下其實跟馬祖元說一下我在院會的時候有問過我們院長跟我們今晚會的主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4357.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4385.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我問說 是不是全部的金融機構都有加入一個金融資料暨聯防通報電子平台這個平台 指揮官熟悉吧指揮官我們知道 指揮官知道喔 好 那麼其實我直逐的是說 是不是所有金融機構有沒有金融機構未加入的那麼 指揮官是說 欸 應該要求全部加入主委回去答覆說 我會回去再確認那請問金管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4386.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4410.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
你們主委交辦下來是不是全部都加入了 有沒有辦法確認銀行局報告委員 這個部分我是不是可以再確認一下所以你們還沒確認嘛是我是在4月29號就親自在院會問卓院長也要求你們主委你們主委的承諾會再跟我確認你們到現在還沒有確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4417.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4442.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
還沒有確認 好 那我會再跟你們主委提醒你們答應我要確認的來 那個馬祖陽我跟你說明一下為什麼這個事情重要 來我們看一下這個你就很熟悉了現在所有的銀行帳戶或零貴轉帳會在銀行之間做匯款那麼只要進入過這個系統因為我們有這個平台所以這個平台會去偵測疑似交易它會經過系統通報通報給誰 通報給警方警方接到通報之後就會透過這個系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4444.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4468.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
去通知銀行那總行就會查出是哪個分行然後告知分行去做臨櫃關懷如果他是臨櫃的話指揮官是不是這樣子報告委員正確那但是如果有銀行或金融機構沒有加入這個平台系統我們警方就沒有辦法即時的偵測也沒有辦法經過通報後提醒他是不是這樣所以很重要嘛好 那我再告訴你另外一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4469.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4474.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
有加入但是出現問題的就是農漁會的帳戶農會的帳戶不管是在帳戶臨櫃轉帳還是非臨櫃的ATM轉帳舉例來講我舉三個農會內埔農會它的編號是74901高雄地區農會是60501台南新化是51901他們各自有各自的編號但是他們會透過誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4492.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4518.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
透過一個叫做我們的農經公司農經資訊公司他是由農業金庫在108年的時候成立的他會把他們的資訊呢整合起來用一個600的代號去進行匯款進入我們的平台我們如果偵測到疑似的可疑交易系統會通報警方警方後呢就要透過系統回去通知糟糕了通知誰只能通知到農經資訊公司因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4521.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4530.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
600嘛 那是哪一家的匯款不知道指揮官 有沒有發現問題在哪裡了不知道有沒有看到問題了好 那怎麼解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4531.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4554.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
是不是我們跟金管會這邊來討論這個部分的諮詢要能夠暢通這個呢因為今天主席只有邀請沒有邀請農業部的農經署農業金庫跟財經公司農經公司都不知道所以呢這個東西要在行政院透過指揮官你們的系統去要求農業部農經署趕快要求農經諮詢公司怎麼去解決這個問題可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4555.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4582.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
好的沒問題多久可以給我一個明確的結果跟委員報告我們一個禮拜之內我們會把它列管到行政院裡面好所以呢這個要有一個精進的作為謝謝往下看接下來我們網路平台廣告實名證的成效我們看到一個新聞就在上一星期速發部主要納管了四大網路的廣告平台結果有人說臉書5月被質疑速發部說我們5月的時候會提計畫檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4583.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4609.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我也問過書發佈啦 他說Google臉書LINE跟TikTok配合度都很高 結果呢 觀察詐騙廣告有下降 財損金額也有下滑是這樣嗎 指揮官小紅書有配合嗎小紅書目前沒有落地小紅書沒有落地 所以沒有辦法要求他配合沒有配合好 那沒有落地的怎麼辦目前我們只能做網路上的監控網路上的監控 好 那小紅書這個我沒有想辦法 來往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4610.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4637.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
結果我們看一下我們從1月底開始實施實名之後的確通報平台下降的數量馬上從13000掉到了8900下降了可是到了4月底的統計回升了還更高到18000回復到之前的水準我們看到Meta臉書在1月的時候有13000實名之後馬上掉下來升10000出頭結果到了3月4月又漲回去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4638.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4640.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
受詐金額從95億掉到60億結果又回升到70億 76億請問是不是詐團找到了對付實名制的對策 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4647.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4669.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這裡面有兩個因素 一個就是說二月份剛好是農曆春節二月份不是我們實名制的效果 是農曆春節的效果對 如果說長期來看的話 我們實名制是有效的有效嗎 因為跟委員報告 他的這個通報平台下架就表示這一些廣告已經被我們偵測到 而且下架了好 那我告訴你炸團怎麼做 往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4670.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4689.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
現在呢 我們警方跟Meta 跟我們那個速發部啊發現疑似詐騙廣告就通到平台嘛 因為有實名制嘛 對不對所以我們網路平台就把它下架了嘛下架之後 詐團怎麼處理同一個實身份證的身份 ID 同一個人頭 同一個戶口的方式再來一次 無限循環啊你們知道嗎 速發部知道嗎速發部知不知道這個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4698.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4711.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
怎麼做這個部分我們有跟我們幾個網路廣告平台業者一起去討論就是說類似這樣子的一個狀況應該要把它列到他的這個防炸計畫書裡面去做風險的評估怎麼做就這樣評估然後呢我告訴你幾個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4716.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4729.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
同樣的人頭同樣的付款方式它沒有成本嘛你幫我下架我再報名一次嘛下架再報名一次嘛然後呢而且我下架之後呢因為廣告投放啊你下架之後你就不會跟我收錢啦它不只沒有時間人頭的成本它連財務的成本都沒有那這樣子嚇阻什麼用 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4735.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4762.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
是 報告委員 事實上以這個Meta跟Line他們都已經有在開始做自己內部因為主動防範的這個部分喔雖然那個防炸計畫書目前還在送我們省當中但是據我們了解這個Line的部分呢他們也有用機器人工的方式只要我們通報過的然後他就會自動的去掃描然後呢 他再來一次不是 然後掃描以後他就會他再來一次啊他就會把它下架下架後再來一次啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4765.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4776.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
無限循環嘛來 馬子維君你們討論的結果 對不起齁發現問題沒有人家說到高一尺磨高一丈啊怎麼辦你們什麼時候可以分一丈變兩丈 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4777.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4801.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
跟委員報告我們現在的重點在於裁罰也就是說未來我們跟速發部合作那包括速發部跟內政部我們一旦發現這個在實名制投放廣告有違規的部分還有剛剛委員所講到的情況裁罰誰裁罰平台嗎裁罰業者裁罰平台嗎對有能力裁罰嗎有沒有能力裁罰他如果這個循環循環你能裁罰他他嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4802.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4822.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
有的有有辦法我們只要就是說他的那個證據如果是確實的話我們就會可以去做好我等著看陳一下指揮官這個部分的就兩個要求了第一個馬上將農會賬戶非零貴匯款發生可疑的交易的時候呢對賬戶持有人的關懷及聯邦性能精進您說下週就會提報嗎我們下週會提報我們的內部事務會議請農業部來列席然後我們請一個院內改善好不好對可以好 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4828.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4840.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那第二個針對實名制已經疑似詐騙的廣告他們的購買者你們說要處罰平台嘛那也是一樣一個月內對於平台的因應方式提出來可以嗎好沒問題好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝那我們接下來我們請王洪威委員代理主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4863.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4874.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
接下來我們請吳宗憲委員質詢好 謝謝主席那我們麻煩法務部長 調查局局長以及署長 警政署署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4885.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4900.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
三位早安三位還是辛苦了謝謝三位對國家的貢獻我先請教署長我現在有個問題要請教就是說我今天還是蠻肯定就是說警政署在打造上面的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4903.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4927.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
因為警察消防這些人其實就是真的在捍衛我們台灣的那其實捍衛台灣的不是什麼黑熊學院或是側翼網軍那真正我一直以來都很敬佩警察消防或海巡這些同仁那署長最近一直有人跟我提到說有不同警察局的人跟我提到不是分局警察局的人跟我提到說有些訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4928.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4945.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
教育訓練都請一些很奇怪的人來講甚至一些紙上談兵的人來講他們就很懷疑說他們一輩子穿防彈衣配槍在做事情的就現在來對他們教育訓練的人是根本不懂的那當然啦這些人是從哪裡來我想大家都猜得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4946.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4965.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
所以我就覺得啦國家的預算不能獨厚特定的某一個團體那請那些人那些外行人來對內行一輩子配槍穿防彈衣的人去講解這些事情其實我覺得有一點是外行在領導內行那我就跟署長報告再麻煩署長能夠了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4967.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4989.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那我覺得最近這個打詐的問題其實非常多一直是國人很在意的那被騙的金額從去年有時候平均一天要到四億被詐騙到今年最新的數據至少還有兩億多那總統他說警察打詐不利破壞率只有1.3%但是我當然是在這邊跟各位國人報告其實真正的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4990.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5016.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
是出在行政機關沒有做前期的控管署長你認同這句話嗎認同就是說所有打詐這東西應該重點不是在於最後的司法機關不是法務部的問題不是警政署問題真正打詐的問題應該是你行政機關譬如說你對於Google、Maple等等他們投放廣告的控管但是目前在我國的這個控管真的非常的不足所以導致後面司法機關、檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5017.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5045.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
警察非常的辛苦 而且還被怪說你們破獲率為什麼這麼低 這是不對政政總統其實不去體恤警察啦 一直說警察要市民如親 生活要簡約但他自己在官邸開那個烤肉趴 我比較希望說當然開那個是還好 但是你應該還是要多給警察一些鼓勵啦那我想請教署長 依照社會秩序文物法六三條散播謠言足以影響公共安寧那我想 影響公共安寧啊 這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5046.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5048.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
這個依照實務的見解就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5049.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5077.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
應該是一些不實的訊息嘛或讓聽到的人會感覺到恐懼 等等對不對對好 那我想請問一下最近有一個議題吵很兇就是那個陳菊走了然後一個問號那警察在4小時內就抓到那現在很多網友就有意見啊他就說 哇這個警察辦詐欺如果可以這麼厲害的話大家就不會這麼辛苦那還有人說 欸現在連提問都不行了嗎那更何況很多媒體 政論節目或YouTuber他們常常 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5079.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5102.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
說誰誰誰貪污打一個問號 從來沒有見到你們查辦耶那為什麼這一件你們可以這樣查辦那另外就是說 他今天來詢問一個問題甚至一個公眾人物有時候是可受公平的事項尤其院長這麼久都沒有來上班 人民提出這個問題我想說這個到底是違反了什麼法規另外 聽到這句話你會感到害怕嗎 請問署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5104.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5131.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
法委我想這個是一個個案啦那個案的這個狀況如果說是不是一個事實那因為我們第一時間大概就是會了解他的這個網址上的這個人嘛那這個人去了解完之後大概會了解他所講的是不是一個狀況一個事實事實我們會如果有一些目的我們會請這檢察官來做一個這個會造成社會的恐慌 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5132.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5152.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
然後在上面寫了一句而且這一句是經常性的在各個媒體上常看到但是媒體沒有人被辦youtuber沒有人被辦結果一個小老百姓寫了這句他還是問到底有沒有這件事情那就被辦了就像其實常常有人寫說金正恩是不是過世西方媒體也常常在報導但是從來沒有人去管這些事情所以我一直覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5153.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5171.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
因為我們對於警察的信任以及對於社會安全安定感覺會在這幾件小事情上面就會破壞殆盡所以你要知道很多網友在講這件事 很多人在講這件事那這個對警察給社會的安定感整個就毀了原來我可以談天談地 但是不能談花嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5173.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5192.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
甚至他這個可能他沒有別的意思啊他只問說因為當時確實有人在做這個傳說連我自己都聽到這個謠言但是只是我不會上網去問那有人聽到發了這個問結果你竟然要用司法用警察下去處理就會造成社會的不安而且你剛剛說你剛剛講了真偽內容真偽 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5194.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5207.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
那如果這個要辦的話 那前陣子那個劉四芳談到租屋補貼 張冠禮帶也被踢破了洪聲翰講的育嬰劉子廷那個補貼也被踢爆了 根本沒這件事林佳龍講的那個護照沒有錢印了 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5210.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5231.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
後來也發現沒有這個事情然後張純涵說那個中小企業補助都被藍白刪除後來發現也沒這個事那這個不是對社會影響更大嗎那為什麼貴署都沒有去查辦呢這是我問題如果你只講內容的真偽那這些部長這些總統府的副秘書長他們幹的事情是更糟糕更不應該的就問你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5231.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5248.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
不當一回事一個小老百姓你們卻處理成這樣那我跟署長說這一點其實我們是不滿那再請署長這邊了解一下那那個局長局長不好意思局長委員長跟局長請教一下因為那一天齁那一天我跟你請問了 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5250.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5271.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
並同帶回這件事啦 因為還有包括部長其實同一個問題你們那天其實沒有給到我答案然後局長你甚至你說這個是因為那份公文不應該出現在現場而且你說我沒有看過 其實我看過公文啦你可以質疑說這份公文也許不是去領取表格的必要的公文 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5272.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5295.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
因為第一時間領取的人去問中選會跟他說這份公文要帶所以他們一直認為這份一定要帶但是我覺得要不要帶著去請領這個連訴書這個不是重點而是這份公文是不是應該被扣押我跟局長報告扣押的定義是對於本案或他案的犯罪證物可以扣押第二個對於違禁品 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5296.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5318.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
這個可以扣押 但是呢 對於非違禁品的東西非本案或他案的犯罪證物 這沒有扣押的依據再來你說那份公文不該出現在那裡 我跟局長報告當天是聯署那個發起人 他們請黨部的人一個人去幫他帶領所以他把身份證委託書全部都交給黨部的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5318.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5342.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
所以你一直說這個東西不該出現那裡 其實這沒有任何依據那個現場是因為檢察官帶隊嘛所以甲官 現在你講的是事後去了解那甲官他在現場覺得說他需要釐清我跟你講 這個是我事後跟你說你說這個東西不該出現在那裡 我必須跟你講的第一個 他該不該出現在那裡 沒有任何法律說不可以出現在那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5342.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5371.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我的東西我的罰單我有時候請別人幫我代繳他可能會出現在他家那如果你認為那個不應該出現在這個我朋友家那你就說要扣走這其實不符合我國刑事用法的扣押依據這我要跟局長報告我現在講每一句話我就說我在國會來我講每一句話歡迎大家去檢視我哪一句話講錯所以局長您說不該出現在那裡所以要扣回去釐清這個完全沒有法律依據這個檢察官在現場判斷對我們就推給檢察官所以說檢察官不應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5372.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5393.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
好 而且更何況是一個合法的公文 它不是違禁品那我在這邊跟各位報告 這個東西根本不應該扣對於不得查扣的東西去進行查扣 這就不對了所以我禮拜一才會引用總統府的例子就像你去這個人家搜索結果他竊盜罪 你要去搜犯罪工具結果你把他女朋友寫給他情書一起扣回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5394.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5405.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
想欣賞一下 這樣就不對了所以你們說的這個東西其實我是沒有辦法接受就好像什麼來我們再來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5406.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5434.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
其實最近為什麼我一直說你們是選擇性辦案因為你就大炮打小鳥違反比例原則而且違反司法獨立的一致性所以真正在迫害司法威信的其實是這些人就是選擇性辦案的這些人然後我也跟部長報告一件事情我一直捍衛檢察官的司法官屬性一堆人想要把檢察官司法官屬性拔掉部長您很清楚我一直拼了命的在希望維持檢察官的司法官屬性 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5435.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5460.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
如果說再這樣搞下去人家會覺得你檢察官都是檢查一體就是直接命令就幹了啊然後跟著政治人物搖擺啊所以他檢察官市長官屬性還能夠維持嗎我們已經岌岌可危了那我們還要再越多這種案子下來那將來怎麼辦然後再來兩位台中市黨部啊被搜索之後扣走什麼扣走贊助 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5461.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5470.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
名冊贊助者名冊還有動員名冊還有歷年的戰情分析請問一下這個東西跟幽靈連署有什麼關聯性我想請教兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5474.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5492.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這個都是個案的內容我們都不知道到底在現場沒關係你們都說不知道包括宜蘭的那個也都說不知道那我在這邊跟各位報告這些東西其實都跟幼齡連署無關嘛甚至有很多金主他的戶籍就不在那裡根本不可能參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5494.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5512.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
罷免啊所以你把這個東西扣回去只會讓大家懷疑我想說好就算調查官 檢察官沒有惡意你也會讓民眾懷疑說這是怎麼回事為什麼跟幽靈連署無關的這些重要的知識者資料動員還有一些戰情分析全部都被扣走了那你要扣給誰看 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5514.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5530.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
這你要扣給誰看所以這都會讓民眾非常的懷疑到底司法為什麼跟政治這樣綁在一起就像什麼就像減掉機關啦我今天去查一個公司續開發票那續開發票違反強硬礦氣法稅捐激增法我應該是查他的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5531.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5551.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
一些帳冊 船票 AB帳 進貨單 電腦是沖銷的名戲嘛這是我們當檢察官的一個基本概念結果呢 你扣完這個之外你還要把他的機器一起扣回家 原料都要把它扣回家這樣對嗎 好 就像說珍珠 你去查一個珍珠奶茶有沒有虛開發票就一定把他的牛奶跟珍珠都扣走 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5552.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5575.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這不對啊 所以讓我想到一件事 我跟兩位報告我小時候很喜歡看漫畫卡通還有周星馳的電影我就突然想到 周星馳有部電影裡面那個皇帝叫韋曉寶去敖拜家抄家 扣他的犯罪所得 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5575.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5601.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
就周星馳他那個韋曉寶把奧拜漂亮的老婆跟女僕都一起扣走了然後還把奧拜的媽媽叫多榮扣回多榮家去去服侍那我以前小時候看這個覺得很好笑看不懂但我現在今天我都現在此刻我終於懂原來這個就叫做病童帶回就是宜蘭地檢署說的病童帶回因為它不是跟本漢無關啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5602.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5619.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
他跟去豪邁家查扣犯罪所的無關啊那為什麼也被韋曉寶併同帶回所以我現在看到的就是這樣不管台中也是這樣宜蘭也是這樣你扣了很多跟本案無關的東西然後給我一句話叫做併同帶回 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5620.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5645.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我到現在還是沒有辦法接受我想說在這個過程裡面甲官他也都是依法行政然後公正在執法啦所以這個他到底扣了什麼內容說實在我也不知道我知道局長你不知道因為你們個案嘛局長可能不知道這個的確是一個個案的問題那有沒有扣到什麼這個是現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5648.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5676.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
檢察院來做一個審查 是不是得為證據之務 沒關係謝謝部長 謝謝部長的解釋謝謝部長 我想部長跟局長 其實你們比較高位階你可能不了解個案扣了什麼 那我就跟各位報告他們會跟我講被扣了什麼那我聽完這些東西的時候 我只覺得不合理那我在這邊跟兩位懇求 司法是百年大計跟教育一樣累積人民的信任真的要上百年 但是毀掉可能是幾個案子就毀掉那目前非常多人 包括吳子嘉他的每一島民調 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5677.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5698.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
其實人民對於司法被政治制度介入其實他的認知的比例非常高認定是如此的比例非常高那這個都不是民進黨口中司法改革該有的樣貌好然後 我在講其實民進黨一直講求言論自由啦但是這段時間我們看到的我在發言一個陳菊走了嗎 我要被查辦或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5700.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5728.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
民進黨在黨綱裡面說司法應該是跨越黨派要獨立審判但是我現在其實看不到很多時候變成是就只跟自己立場不同我就處理這給我感覺好像變成這個樣子就是變成是就是像我們最近看到的英國的經濟學人雜誌還有美國那個卡內基自由基金會他們所提到其實都提到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5729.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5751.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
賴政府在這段時間的作為其實造成我們內部的對立那這個東西會影響到美國會不會拋棄台灣的一個重大變數這是經濟學人講的或是他認為說這個東西如果不管會造成東亞地區的兩岸之間的一個不穩定然後會影響美國這都是國外的砸而且這些譬如說卡內基金會他對美國政府影響力是很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5753.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5771.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我是希望啦 不要變成是整個 就是說 配合著政府這樣做還有就是 我也不想跟我以前 指導我的老師或者是我以前 帶著學級司法官 我指導他的在公務上面針鋒相對 因為私下我們感情都非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5771.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5789.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我真的覺得不應該這樣啦那我覺得最近很多人出來覺得不滿或是美麗島民調很多人對於司法被政治介入不滿那為什麼很多人起來反抗我還再套一句周星馳電影講啦他說其實這些 我跟你講這些反抗人的多少不是藍白政黨決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5791.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5814.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
是執政者決定你今天越倒行逆施反抗的人就越多我也是希望不要我們能夠一片和諧但是我一直等不到這一天的來臨然後再來我最後請教局長局長我看到你們調局給我的報告我上次請問你說為什麼偽造文書的案子你要給他選舉查查的和分然後你在那邊給我的理由其中一個是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5815.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5833.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
這跟選罷法有關那我想請問一下一階的幽靈連署跟選罷法哪一條有關請教局長 第幾條包委其實我那天跟你回答是說我們這是回歸到選舉查查的績效那我們本局的廉政處在112年的10月7號就已經有函班這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5836.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5846.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
法務部調查局113年總統副總統及立法委員選舉查查專案的績效考核要點這是在112年的10月就已經函班了那這裡面的第19點你聽我說完這裡面的第19點就已經有 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5852.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5864.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
有明定了本次選舉當選人的罷免程序及當選人因罷免而辦理補選其績效考核適用本要點的規定所以這個在2012年底就已經定了我完全認同局長剛說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5867.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5890.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
但是請問這跟幽靈連署有什麼關係這個是罷免的程序啊你剛講的那個是涉犯選罷法那個是涉犯選罷法我昨天已經有提供這個要點給委員我有拿到你們給我的資料嘛所以我請教你的問題嘛各地檢署在一接幽靈連署都沒有談到選罷法各地檢署喔那這個就是一個罷免程序啊那今天為什麼調查局可以把 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5891.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5899.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
這個東西突然灌了一個跟選罷法有關用選舉查查去合積分然後突然從一個很低積分變成好幾萬分的積分這個是罷免程序當然是跟選舉罷免有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5905.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5928.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
來 局長你這樣說 我請教你過往哪一次罷免我們之前有罷免韓國瑜市長有罷免謝國良市長至少成功鎮哪裡有很多鎮長都有罷免請問一下哪一次罷免期間 連署期間你們有用 選舉查查何分我說連署期間這個我們要回去我跟局長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5929.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5949.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
來 請問一下沒有案子沒有 所以這一次就是史上第一次嘛這一次真的是史上第一次發生這樣這麼多的狀況那史上第一次罷免嗎是史上第一次罷免嗎我剛念的韓院長 謝市長台東有一些鎮長還有其他人的罷免案那不是都罷免如果按照局長您說的對我們的績效裡面沒有分藍跟綠 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5952.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5968.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
我沒有說藍綠你不要給我誤導話題我沒有說藍綠我只說過往的罷免如果依照局長你講的這麼正正有詞這麼有道理我也認同你結果過往的過往罷免為什麼沒有分藍跟綠的話那委員是擔心說你要用選罷法的績效還是委員擔心作弊被抓有績效 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5977.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5994.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
所以啊沒有你不要再講作弊了我上次已經講過一次了我說這就好像什麼班上兩個人作弊啦一個退學另外一個罰站五分鐘就坐下因為他老爸是教養會長他祖子是民進黨好那即使沒有這樣我們不講藍綠我們報告局長我們不講藍綠我只是講例子嘛為什麼局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6002.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6025.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
局長你不用亂扯那邊我只請教局長過往的罷免這麼多次了請問哪一次在連署期間你們讓調查官大規模出去搜索大規模讓檢察官計壓然後再把核分算為選舉查查的核分請問過去哪一次有其實包委員我們其實都沒有大規模在這個節點的同時我們各類的案件我們各類的案件都同時在實行 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6031.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6054.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
過去哪一次的罷免期間的連署你們有用這個方式去用選舉查查和分請教局長就這問題這麼簡單過去都沒有立案是 所以這是史上第一次我要跟各位報告這是史上第一次很多時候啊 就我講的一個公司啊如果你今天突然把績效獎金提高十倍某一個項目績效獎金提高十倍我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6054.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6082.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
全公司不會有人做別的事全部去衝那個績效那個獎金的那個項目所以我覺得這個不應該啦就是因為過去沒有現在突然有不是突然有我就跟您報告了嘛是112年的10月7號就已經有這個辦法然後我覺得更可笑的是一階的幽靈連署各地檢署沒有人用選舉罷免法我在這邊跟各位強調沒有人用選舉罷免法 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6084.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6105.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
所以然後你下面跟我跟我這樣講我覺得你說112年對不對報告局長你說112年對不對那你去查一下成功證台東縣成功證證長是什麼時候罷免的我印象如果記沒有錯是去去年罷免那為什麼沒有用那你不是講話就矛盾了你不是剛才講嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6106.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6123.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
因為我記得我去年那時候沒有案件啊不是啊你有沒有給這個核分跟有沒有案件是兩回事嘛我先說有這個核分我們的調查官沒有去調查偵辦我們是要給他什麼這就是我今天我有意見的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6124.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6148.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
這個都不用查 這一次開始貓起來查這一次說又來了沒有人告發我跟你講又來沒有人告發我跟你講多少公務員貪污根本沒有人告發你們有資料就下去查辦我跟你講 局長我知道局長很不高興因為昨天禮拜一局長回去的時候貴公司就有兩個人打電話跟我說局長很不爽那我說我也沒辦法沒關係沒關係 局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6152.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6173.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我們虛心接受委員的指向這樣啦齁 您對我不滿我也OK啦但是我們就是就事論事我私下像我跟部長我跟部長常爭鋒相對但我對部長的關懷部長很清楚他就是我的長官公務之外他就是我尊敬的長官對您也是公務之外我對您的尊敬不會少一分 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6175.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6200.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
唉 我覺得齁 如果說齁真的我們要去談說妨害選舉 那我跟我在這邊可以告發啊我們選罷法104條 你就罷免的部分你有一些不實的資訊 那也會違反104條第一項嘛那我們想了一下 那之前劉四芳呢劉四芳她講 藍白亂砍 租金普帖後來又說沒有 後來又被人家踢爆那洪聲翰 我剛剛講了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6202.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6232.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
因應留職 停薪 補貼 他說被藍白刪光結果後來也查沒有不是 沒有這件事林佳雄講的那個護照後來也沒有這件事張純涵講的中小企業補助款被藍白刪光後來查也沒有這件事那這個他就是為了罷免在天才府那為什麼104條第一項沒有人辦呢所以是不是我這邊就直接告發然後麻煩麻煩局長這邊能夠查因為既然要處理我們這麼重視司法以及國人我們就這樣做嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6233.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6251.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那麻煩局長部長那是不是這幾位部長還有總統府副秘書長他虛假訊息就意圖影響到罷免這符合選舉罷免法104條第一項的規定那是不是我們就應該要開始查辦這個事情因為這個是虛假訊息連他們自己後來都承認 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6252.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6273.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那是不是可以這樣做那一樣我這邊跟各位我們公務上面針鋒相對我該講什麼就講什麼你們也不希望一個國家到最後只剩下一種聲音啦我覺得還是要有人挺身而出去點出問題在哪裡如果對我們不滿我也覺得不好意思對各位有所冒犯但是該講的話我還是會講出來不是啦因為我會說到很多以前同事的電話算了沒關係這個我不講一樣謝謝三位的辛勞謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6283.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6307.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
好 謝謝吳宗憲委員 接下來那個王宏威委員質詢好 現在我們請王宏威委員發言謝謝主席 一樣先請我們法務部部長還有調查局局長 麻煩局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6321.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6325.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
局長,剛才我聽了吳宗憲、趙偉的質詢,你的回答應該是未來,升官發財,指日可待。不會不會,我把我現在的工作做好了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6339.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6357.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
可以看這個上級的臉色來辦事我們在談到很多案件裡面都在講說都是個案不去講但是呢你剛才也提到竟然在整個的偵辦過程裡面就可以講到說有人在教室裡面集體作弊所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6357.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6363.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
局長 祝你官運亨通但是局長我想請問一下 剛才在講就是有關於這個獎勵辦法是112年開始實施請問一下112年有沒有在這個連署裡面出現死人連署跟偽造連署 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6379.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6403.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
市長跟委員報告我們在112年定的這個績效要點主要是為了要因應113年的二合一選舉那但是我們在要點裡面有特別提到就是說因為本次而這個選舉當選的當選人他的這個將來的罷免程序以及當選人因為罷免而必須要辦理補選他的績效考核也適用本要的規定我想現在看有好多種 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6404.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6413.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
好多種的這個標準不同剛才說過去都沒有告發嗎怎麼會沒有告發呢我剛才為什麼特別講112年以後在113年11月29號 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6420.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6443.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
中選會就告發了有關於謝國良市長的罷免案的相關的偽造連署跟死亡連署他的罷免時間是113年的11月29號所以如果按照你可以適用你這個相關的獎勵辦法我就不懂謝國良當時他的罷免案有辦嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6445.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6465.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
也有沒有告發呢 有告發呀那另外過去數次的不管是公投案或者是罷免案中選會有沒有告發呢 你剛才說都沒有人告發中選會也是有告發的喔在包含罷免韓國瑜 王浩宇 陳柏惟 黃潔 高敏玲 陳志忠 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6470.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6484.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
林長佐等等 中選會通通有告發 請問有辦嗎奇怪了 中選會告發 你們當它 中選會是SOGAU中選會的告發你們有辦嗎 沒有辦啊那至於你112年可以適用的 我剛剛講那幾個確實在112年之前 你沒有辦 當然沒有適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6494.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6506.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
謝國良113年年底告發你有辦嗎 沒有辦你有適用嗎 你也沒有適用所以你現在講的所謂的標準根本都是因人設事都是假官都沒有發達給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6510.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6520.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
都沒有給你 那是檢察官怠惰囉那檢察官他可以自己查 他本來就是偵查主體啊那為什麼不查 那為什麼不查那你為什麼不去追究中選會告發 中選會還是行政單位中選會不是跟調查局告發為什麼檢察官可以不查 不需要查沒有交辦嘛沒有交辦就不必查嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6532.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6548.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
沒有交辦就不必查嘛有交辦才需要查嘛而且要大規模查嘛唯一的標準就是如此啊你剛才在講的你所有的不管相關的規定也好有沒有告發也好現在看起來全部都是雙標還不只雙標好幾個標準唯一的標準就是上面有沒有交辦而已嘛沒有所以你還在這邊可以硬拗嗎沒有 這我不用拗我很清楚你當然在硬拗好 再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6561.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6584.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
剛才都說是個案可是有很多的個案連結起來它是不是就是通案其實大家都知道在民主國家裡面你要去搜索在野政黨本來就是一個大事情好 當然你們這次以所謂的偽造文書就是以連署造假來做你們調查偵查的這個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6585.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6597.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
但是我上次在這邊我也講過在你們搜索台北市黨部的時候你針對的是罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳佩奕的連署的造假 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6599.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6606.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
台北市黨部是不是 這個是個案的內容這還不是個案 你又在裝傻囉你不要裝傻囉 是不是在裝傻來來 不知道也可以回答 我已經講過了在台北市 你偵辦的是兩個立法委員的造假連署所以他針對的區是非常非常明確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6624.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6641.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
但是我上次就講結果你帶走的是什麼呢你帶走的是中山區的黨員名冊我上次就講中山區的黨員如何能連署到吳佩奕委員跟吳思瑤委員呢好 剛才 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6642.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6662.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
吳宗憲委員也特別提到在台中你們把支持者的名冊也帶走請問一下支持者的名冊你為什麼要帶走呢所以你今天是要查國民黨的金主們嗎是不是你為什麼要把支持者的名冊帶走 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6664.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6675.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
所以現在減掉你們辦案已經辦到無限上綱你們本來是辦連署造假結果把支持者的名冊帶走把戰情分析帶走現在是怎樣你們是連選舉人家的戰情分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6682.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6707.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
也 也違法了嗎請問一下一個市黨部裡面 任何的黨部裡面有戰情分析這是什麼樣的違法的文件來 回答我這就通案了啦這已經是通案 不是個案請問一下在黨部裡面如果有戰情分析它是什麼樣的違法文件可以扣押 可以帶走 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6709.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6725.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
答不出來嗎?這還是個案的一個認定這是個案這當然是通案所以我要講的如果把黨部的金主的名冊帶走把戰情的分析帶走 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6726.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6742.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
這叫做個案個案你們不會去查唷這根本都違法了嘛這是已經違法濫權啦好再來剛剛講宜蘭宜蘭把中選會的公文帶走把中選會的公文帶走 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6743.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6764.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
然後一開始還否認最後說不小心帶走請問一下這還可以視為個案是之嗎所以我說從台北市黨部到台中市黨部到宜蘭縣黨部你們把不應該帶走的東西而且不可以帶走的東西通通帶走 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6765.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6767.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
請問檢察官或者調查區可以如此濫權嗎這個不是濫權這不叫濫權來來部長講這怎麼叫做不算濫權這是另狀態執行的一個扣押當然如果釐清之後如果說認為沒有留存的必要當然就發還了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6781.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6788.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那他為什麼要釐清暫情分析我請問一下這個釐清就可以 如果說這個沒有有可能什麼樣你們都可以帶走裡面所有無關你案情的請問一下你可以把金主名冊帶走嗎你是要去查人家水表嗎你是要去查這些金主的水表嗎可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6807.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6812.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
然後另外你說有沒有兩套標準 說都有辦啊請問一下你們有去抄任何民進黨的黨簿民進黨的地方黨簿嗎 有嗎所以怎麼樣 你還可以不發還給人家是不是所以你帶走還帶得很 你覺得很理所當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6832.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6855.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
所以這一種這是完全的這完全的就是濫權啊怎麼可以追殺一個政黨追殺到這種地步你巧立一個名目來辦案然後把其他所有不相關的通通帶走這法院合法的搜索票去執行的時間暫停我請那個司法院司法院覆密 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6863.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6886.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那廳長也上來好了來法部說這次只要你們發了搜索票所以他可以為所欲為 扣所欲口 扣 愛帶走什麼就帶走什麼是這樣嗎 副秘書長跟案情無關的他都可以帶走嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6889.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6914.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
搜索票它是那個令狀主義所以說有關於那個搜索的那個對象跟那個標的物在搜索票上面都有記載好 那請問一下以這個連署的話那麼它應該是跟連署 偽造連署相關的嘛對不對你們難道是說只要比如說你今天搜索台北市黨部台北市黨部所有的一草一木你都可以帶走是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6916.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6937.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
這個要看那個個案的判斷還有依舊當時申請的時候我想請問一下當你法院發搜索票的時候跟案情無關的相關的文件是不是也可以隨便的帶走隨便的扣押我剛剛講了這個很多都跟案情無關啊一點關係都沒有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6939.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6967.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
委員這真的也是要看那個 就是在那個那我剛才所說的這些狀況那麼我們檢調單位在去扣押這些相關的證物的時候有沒有已經逾越了其實法官開搜索票的範圍我剛才說啦你今天罷免連署是這個選區但是呢他去把其他的選區的名冊一併帶走 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6969.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6993.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
或者是他是以罷免這是連署的案子但是他有相關的戰情分析他的戰情分析絕對不是罷免的分析因為還沒有成立你可能是過去的戰情分析可以按照我剛才講的實際的具體案例有沒有逾越了法院所開立搜索票的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6994.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7008.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
報告委員 就是在那個個案執行的時候就是依那個實際上那個狀況在那個搜索票上面他的這個搜索標的他不會到特定非常特定的一個文件所以副秘書長我們以我們以保障人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7012.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7035.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
因為即便被調查者 被調查的 我們本來講就是還沒有那個還未經判決嘛 對不對 我們都是無罪推定嘛我們是無罪推定 那麼可以這樣的由第一線的檢調人員做這樣的一個他完全由他意志 他決定帶走什麼就帶走什麼嗎你覺得這樣的搜索 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7036.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7060.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
在台灣說尊重司法人權要落實司法人權這樣子是合理的嗎合理嗎我剛才講的都是實際案例喔合理嗎因為如果說是非本案的扣押的話他後面還是有救濟程序還是可以經由那個司法再做一次那個審查可是他已經帶走了 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7061.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7074.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
好 所以妳也不敢講說這是合理的嘛 對不對所以我要講的就是說在這一波的這個整個搜索的裡面我們看到不同的地檢署講白話就是殺紅了癮 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7076.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7099.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
而法務部或者調查局完全沒有做任何的節制即便在立法院裡面我們已經提出有這些的疑慮但是他們顯然覺得沒有什麼關係其實你今天對一個在野黨如此你對一般的深斗小民何嘗不是如此呢你只要進去拿了一個搜索票搜索票是萬能的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7100.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7126.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
搜索票是萬能的嗎你想要扣什麼證物你就扣什麼證物嗎無關的你也可以這樣子去扣嗎如果是這樣的話台灣沒有司法人權可言不是如此嗎另外我也請教副秘書長在昨天在昨天當然你們一定會講個案但是我要請教的是就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7129.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7150.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
你們在昨天就是台北市黨部的主委那個黃禮菊如她抗告失敗那當然這是個案但是在你們的新聞稿裡面也就是呢駁回她抗告其中有一部分引起了非常多的討論裡面就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7153.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7178.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
這個黃麗菊奴涉嫌刑法然後有一個重點我紅色框起來且被告與本案其餘共犯間關於政治立場及本案犯行部分均有利害關係所以大家的質疑就是說今天你要不要羈押他難道政治立場也是一個考量的重點嗎按照你們的新聞稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7184.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7210.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
抗告駁回的理由其中是他們之間的政治立場所以也就是說不管是檢察官也好或法官也好他當他決定要不要羈押他的時候他要先了解這個當事人的政治立場跟其他被告的政治立場他都要先了解而且如果覺得你們相似的話一樣的話也作為羈押的理由是不是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7212.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7231.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
報告委員 這個確實是個案但是就是依他這個文字上的解讀他這個並不是因為當事人並不是因為那個政治立場所以說那個受到那個羈押與否的一個決定我想這個文字脈絡上並沒有這樣子的一個意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7232.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7249.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那你都放在新聞稿了欸我相信這個判決書一定跟漏漏場啊你知道這個新聞稿是要擷取其中之精華啊然後今天提到他的政治立場這是怎麼樣 制正這次辦案有政治立場的考量嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7251.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7279.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
這是法官也自證我在決定他要不要駁回他抗告的時候我考量當事人的政治立場嗎那個報告委員那個法官就是不管是一憲法或者是那個依法官法呢就是說他絕對是一個獨立審判是要超出那個政治那個政黨的屬性還有那個政治立場的其實我知道在這邊也得不到你們的這個回話因為我想你們也覺得這個到底你要怎麼回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7280.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7303.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我只是覺得齁你們不管檢調或者是法院可以不演到這種程度嗎連政治立場都可以放到這個抗告的新聞稿裡面大拉拉的向上表忠是不是以我來看的話這是要向上表忠的一個新聞稿啊因為我知道黃磊 景如的政治立場太扯了司法真的應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7310.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7332.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
皇后的徵抄但是你們現在操作司法現在變成皇帝的徵抄了有徵抄可言嗎在這一連串的事件裡面你們的操作非常粗暴而且呢完全的雙標而且如果你們覺得不以為意 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7333.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7352.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
即便是下面的人這樣子基層的這樣子的搞法你們還覺得是可以去護航的那麼台灣的司法人權真的真的在這次案子裡面真的完全被踐踏了我覺得大家都難得可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7353.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7379.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
在高官上做一些事情但是如果今天做的是把司法人權讓大家看不起其實我覺得這是很悲哀的事情好不好謝謝謝謝王委員那接下來我們請陳冠廷陳冠廷陳冠廷審發會審發會審發會郭育晴郭育晴郭育晴那現在我們請鄭天才委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7390.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7413.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
主席 各位委員 有請法務部部長麻煩部長委員好部長好還有所有的官員 大家辛苦了今天的議題 主要就是我們台灣成為一個詐騙的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7415.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7437.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這個打擊行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心今天的報告裡面也特別提到這個為了要打詐所以制定了這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例通訊保障及監察法刑事訴訟法特殊強制處分專章也就是科技偵查法制法 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7438.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7449.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
還有洗錢防治法然後在這個打炸事法已經在去年7月已經公佈施行了公佈施行之後我們看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7451.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7476.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
這是今年2月17號的一個新聞詐騙國家國安危機全國遭詐遭詐騙的500億這相當相當的高所以有了這個事實上為了這個打詐成立了很多機關無論是過去新成立的樹花部很多相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7477.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7492.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
人人也增加了很多經費也增加了很多法也制定了但是我們的這個整個招詐的金額相關的件數不斷不斷的增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7494.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7520.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
所以這個部分這個部長當然還有相關的機關這個我今天看了你們的法務部的報告這個檢討的因應的作為好像不高不多這個從你的報告裡面這樣的一個好像就是就這樣過所以這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7522.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7544.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
你看我們這個近五年的詐欺案件數及財務的財損不斷不斷的升高從2020年一直到現在去年502億這樣的一個金額逐年的增加所以這樣的一個情形之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7546.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7568.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
日常交易啊人民就受到很大的恐慌到底成為怎麼樣連日常的交易都成為詐騙的溫床事實上這個整個無論是法務部當然現在最辛苦的是警察啦其實最辛苦的警察但是司法機關檢調單位就從這段時間都往哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7577.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7602.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
就誠如陳水扁總統講的清算在野勢力這些嫌棄的案件就是清算把時間人力都移到那邊去了花了這麼多的人力在那邊剛才講的個案已經發生的個案需要檢討的就要趕快通令所有的檢調單位要檢討啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7604.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7628.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
不該拿走的文件 中選會的公文拿走了連署人要去 體育人要去送件的時候就沒有公文類似像這樣的你不能說這是個案 不能討論已經發生的個案就要檢討就要通知所有的檢調機關要檢討 要審慎 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7634.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7659.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
譬如說剛才講的相關的這些搜索不過具體的話司法院要把它具體化因為已經發生這種爛錢的搜索了所以這個部分都是需要去檢討當然這樣的一個詐騙有了法有了人仍然這麼嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7661.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7688.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
所以雖然這裡報告裡面強化民眾防詐意識其實是要從國家開始我們的政府從國家真的是一個詐騙一個政務官在民眾面前講租屋的補助被砍傷了幼兒津貼被砍傷了 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7691.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7717.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
一個政務官這不是詐騙嗎 詐騙從政府裡面出現詐騙那人民到底要怎麼相信 相信誰啊部長你可能還有司法院還有調查局的可能不了解我們的明白為了網路啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7720.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7748.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
我們常常要去說明網路啊說這個被刪了這個被砍了預算被刪了我們常常要去說明很忙啊有的是政務官的有的是立法委員的有的是網軍的成為台灣已經成為一個詐騙國家這個都是我們司法機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7751.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7778.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
檢調商會要去包括我們所有的政務官尤其是這個好我們看這個對不對中選會公布謝國良罷免案的調查報告裡面提到基隆選委會九大威師事實上他談的不是選委會的九大威師我這邊要談的不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7779.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7805.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
中選會表示提議人名冊是查對提議人有未照情勢的經該會刪除 經中選會刪除的557人其中有319人未照未照啊 中選會已經寫未照中選會已經明確地說未照啊都沒有辦啊 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7807.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7833.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
這非常非常的一個所以這個部分啊這個上次我也提到啊上次我也提到這個台灣怎麼會淪落到這樣的一個地步陳水扁總統講得很清楚他說清算在野勢力這個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7835.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7862.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
檢調單位配合清算在野勢力所以這個部分尤其是我們公務人員出身的怎麼樣去針對政務官壽命以上面事務官就應該要抗計把司法把相關我們台灣的一個不要說到一直 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7863.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7865.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
成為一個詐騙國家以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7888.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7911.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
有請司法院副秘書長 法務部部長然後內政部警政署署長還有抒發部副署長好副署長委員長我想請問我們這位四位首長我們現在台灣的詐騙問題也不嚴重先請司法院好了也不嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7911.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7935.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那個 我們從收案量來看 司法院第一線收案量來看就知道很嚴重非常嚴重 是那我再想請我們的部長 嚴重嗎這個詐騙的確是全民公敵那我們檢察官收案負擔是很嚴重那我們就是強力地掃蕩 也獲得一些的成果警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7937.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7959.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
對 現在詐騙是算國內的治安面是算比較嚴重的好 我們來速發部我們同意現在其實確實詐騙是嚴重的好 你看我們今天很好我們四位首長的共識 台灣詐騙非常嚴重我先分享一個個案 我再從總體來看我們現在詐騙有多嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7962.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7990.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我最近實際上是挨家挨戶在我的選區送感謝信所以路上我會遇到很多的民眾那很多民眾會跟我去談各式各樣的問題有時候是選民陳情有時候要遇到什麼樣的狀況那我就是一意的傾聽你知道我在路上遇到非常多的其中一個太陽是在抱怨哪一件事情嗎部長你知道嗎 猜猜看請我們的司法院副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7991.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8019.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
就是我剛剛講的題目詐騙詐騙真的很嚴重我遇到一個老太太她看到我就哭了她說她被詐騙了好幾百萬她說追不回來她很難過她說雖然家人其實對她來講那也是個財務很大的一個負擔但家人還算體諒都在安慰她但她覺得她自己過不去 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8020.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8046.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
他覺得他自己心裡過不去然後他說這些錢他也追不回來了這是我遇到的許多個案當中的一個我們的詐騙問題有多嚴重已經變成國恥了吧我想這句話我不知道我們部長認不認同已經是台灣對人民來講詐騙已經是非常痛苦的一件事情了沒錯吧 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8049.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8060.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我剛才講說詐騙這個是全民公敵我想我們經過這一陣子打造司法的一個通過從源頭的一個行政管制註決了很多的詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8064.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8087.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那林貴的這部分也提醒了民眾免受詐騙那另外我們強力掃蕩也獲得一些的成果那我想這部分大家是很努力的來 我來看一下 希望說整個一個讓這個詐騙應該現在有個反轉的已經往下的一個跡象了這是我們打造市 非常謝謝您的往下今年3月詐騙的財損是多少錢部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8093.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8099.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
這個財損是要有70億比2月成長了多少2月份大概60億左右到4月變到多少大概75億左右我的數字是76.5億 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8117.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8137.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
再多了將近7.9%我想是不是把這個趨勢跟大家報告一下就是說我們打詐司法之後經過這個努力之後的一個趨勢那從打詐司法這次去年7月我先跟你講一個最簡單的人民的感受跟現在實際的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8141.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8153.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
人民的感受我在路上走就是感受人民對詐騙真的是深惡痛絕啊這個感受沒錯吧沒錯 我覺得還是有努力的空間啦來持續再做努力謝謝 繼續努力所以我覺得部長不要鬆懈 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8159.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8183.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
保護部啊 先聽我講完啦這個沒有鬆懈 如果有鬆懈的話我們怎麼可能會好啦 我改個詞彙啦我改個詞彙啦我改個詞彙啦詐騙157億 被害人達到5080人起訴80人 這個還押了50幾個齁那這個我想這是整一個打造團隊的一個努力那我想這部分是有目共睹的啦那這跟委員做一個報告我跟部長說啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8186.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8210.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
實際上的成績跟人民的感受我剛都講了不管是從財損來講從這邊感受當然我沒有否定我們這司法單位你們對打詐的一些努力我沒有否定啦可是作為部長我覺得你要有更多的同理心去看看民眾的痛苦就像說今天你去看看我遇到那個民眾的痛苦他痛不痛苦請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8215.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8223.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我想這個我們都是跟民眾的感受是一樣的請署長好了所以我們才會大力的一個掃蕩那從源頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8226.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8237.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
才跨部會的一個整合心再柔軟一點啦謝謝你這個我們就是有一再的所以說我們一直在偵查中的案件要求要大力的查扣然後呢罪章反反然後彌補被害人的損害因為被害人真的很可憐所以我們在努力的是要求他們一定要調解和解 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8251.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8273.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
去賠償被害人的這種的一個損失然後當作良心的一個參考所以這個要給被害人的一些的保障所以我們在落實對詐欺危害防治對被害人的一個保障我想這部分當然我們還自己在努力啦我想我對部長真的是很尊敬也尊重嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8274.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8292.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
你剛剛講話也不打斷你 讓你講 雖然我質詢時間有限了可是我今天其實只講一件事情人民的痛苦 我相信署長感受到吧我是站在民眾的同理心上去看待事情要的沒有別的啦 就這份同理心啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8293.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8312.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
那接下來講 我最近看到打詐有些狀況 我也不得不說我覺得行政部門好像打詐有些矛盾 我想要釐清一下前政署發部官員在接受侯孟楷委員質詢說聲稱詐騙廣告無法裁罰是因為內政部沒有提供資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8313.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8334.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那當然刑事局發新聞稿嚴正澄清說截至今年已經通報業者下架3.8萬件詐騙廣告已經匯整移交速發布要求依法懲處我想請問一下速發布刑事局的新聞稿是真的嗎你們兩單位有什麼誤解嗎他們都移交給你們了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8335.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8359.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
是的 報告委員我想這個部分是有些時間的落差性就是有關於3.8萬件的這個部分確實已經都有通知這個網路平台業者去依法下架所以這個部分有在期限內去做下架這個部分沒有裁罰的問題那至於第二個就是說有關於這個內政部他移送15件案件給我們的這個部分確實有一點時間的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8362.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8386.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
在我們上個禮拜5月1號的時候我先跟書發部說啦所以妳也承認有移送嘛是的然後又跟我講一個叫時間差那我只能說妳書發部是狀況外連時間差都沒掌握嗎妳書發部可以在質詢的時候官員可以推給什麼內政部嗎妳如果已經承認是有移送資料啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8387.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8394.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
5月1號的早上9點來我想請教一下我想請教一下請問警政署署長剛剛我們的抒發部官員這樣回答我想我們未來會再加強互相的這個聯繫跟聯繫上的一個合作的一個關係對啊我覺得你們詐騙彼此要齊心一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8414.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8424.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
不要遇到責任就開始第一件事想要就先推還先推給自己其他的部會這不是一個政府通力合作的一個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8425.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8453.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我要跟各位說啦根據統計2021年到2023年刑警人均移送案件數是從62.69件上升到84.56件那三年工作量暴增35%嘛 署長對不對對 沒錯那也因此造成我們現在全國偵查所人力有14%的預算缺額那基層負擔也非常重嘛 對不對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8454.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8478.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
所以因此其實警察負責的我認為是事後的偵辦跟追查這是主要你們的主力在這個地方嘛但是詐騙廣告釣魚網站網路詐騙的源頭管制我必須講書發部這不能推給內政部啦不能推給我們那個警政署啦你們才是職責之所在吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8479.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8504.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
是 跟委員報告 這個部分來講的話其實我們在今年的打炸綱02.0開始上路之後肅發部是防炸的主政機關在這裡面呢 我們也做了許多的一些措施我直接講個結論啦我真的覺得積極度是不夠那我要特別講 我要問一下警政署啊你們現在在追查詐騙食物上網路廣告管制層面上有沒有遇到什麼問題希望肅發部來協助的 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8507.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8520.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
我們現在遇到的問題就是這個廣告商雖然有實名制但是還不斷的重複在下廣告所以源頭一定要止住那如果源頭不止住這些廣告商的話一定要跟他處罰啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8522.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8536.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
一定要處罰 他自己廣告商 炸房條例本來就有規範很清楚他有自主要去做管理 要去做這樣的一個責任但是他不做的話 法已經有規範如果違反這個規範 一定要處罰了 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8538.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8565.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
來 我們請已經承認你現在是你的主責業務的書發部警政署的聲音聽到了沒有有的 我們其實跟警政署一直都有在做聯繫包括說上個禮拜移送過來的15個案件我們也已經在昨天跟警政署還有司法單位一起來研究這15個案子目前應該有一個案子有疑似資料接錄不實的部分我做個結論書發部的工作極小讓國人來評價 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8567.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8591.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
但是無論如何 不要把責任推給基層員警打詐事後當然去追很重要可是你那事前的洞沒有補齊 你是累死員警現在尤其打詐團的詐騙技術 網路上的做法真的是日新月異你今天靠基層員警去抓 事後去抓 怎麼抓得完他利潤又這麼的大 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8592.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8614.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
所以今天速發部要把這個事情放在肩膀上去想想看你今天如果你沒有在源頭上把這些詐騙的一些漏洞把它縮緊一點的話你就累死所有警察也抓不完詐騙啊我每天到地上跑活動我都看到我們的員警在那邊宣導反詐騙為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8617.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8645.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
因為詐騙真的很嚴重 幾乎每一個活動沒錯吧 署長每個活動都我們的警察同仁在宣導反詐騙吧沒有錯幾乎每一個啦所以我都已經熟到變老朋友了啦因為都是警察同仁這邊宣導反詐騙所以我要跟我們政府部門說啊就是說基本上請你們的合作能夠更緊密啊最後我還是要講一下前面的質詢啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8646.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8671.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我跟部長說我剛剛看到您的答詢答我還是要講一句話我說司法資源是有限的我今天也真的還是很遺憾我念幾個我們的司法人員在媒體受訪的一個感慨然後給我們部長參考他說有基層檢察官受訪說政治介入司法 招橫太明顯 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8672.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8696.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
醫生職責守護捍衛追求的司法爭議現在已經被總統跟執政的民進黨完全破壞殆盡也有調查員受訪指出在調查局裡只要有一點良心曾經辦過案的調查員都私下感嘆整個調查系統從上到下早已失去風骨 睜眼說瞎話只要跟對組織就可能升官發財 私下難看讓人感怒不敢言 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8696.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8719.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
有資深檢察官受訪指出現在好像你隨地吐個痰檢調都可以把你辦成殺人放火重罪檢調司法警政首長全市總統清點的人馬猶如一條鞭作業全部只聽命於一人展現出效忠組織的大動作各地檢調單位還爭相求表現希望讓長官看到也有資深檢察官受訪時說 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8721.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8749.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
在野黨台南宜蘭台北新北黨部陸續遭到檢調搜索檢察官佛曉初級帶隊抓人講得難聽一點就算是重罪五年以上刑責的販毒被告也只是在家收傳票到庭說明而不實聯署書所涉及的偽造文書涉罪重是五年以下刑責卻要大陣仗搜索歹人羈押押人不成為達目的一再抗告 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8749.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8770.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
那麼嚴重不服羈押比例原則我知道部長你不會認同這些話啦對我是不會認同因為我在否認說所謂的什麼去介入因為我一直在強調說個案我們都不介入不干涉不指導嘛部長我跟你已經相處一年了你回答的標準公式我也知道那這個本來就是沒有去介入嘛我要先跟部長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8772.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8797.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
就像剛剛我問人民的詐騙情感的時候你竟然可以嘟弄了半天連人民的情感你都沒有辦法正面的回應我要跟你講就是說基本上我非常了解部長啊我非常了解部長今天只要是對現在的檢察官對法務部對我們現在執政黨有所指責的部分你都不會放在心上嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8799.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8815.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
今天但是社會上有一把尺在那裡啦我還是做一個簡單的結論這歷史有兩種比較一個就是垂直 一個叫水平垂直比較是從古到今我就直接講嘛你之前問了多少次 你們也答不出來有哪一個總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8817.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8844.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
陳水扁 馬英九 蔡英文 李登輝到賴清德有哪一個總統執政任內他的司法檢調全台灣大市搜索在野黨黨部並且關押在野黨黨的幹部只有一個啦 賴清德那第二個今天到底有哪一個總統在任內會去以黨主席身份下令要求全黨公職來發動大罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8846.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8872.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
李登輝沒有 蔡英文沒有 陳水扁也沒有 馬英九也沒有啊只有我們天眾英明的賴清德總統有啊你是賴清德總統 賴政府嘛 民進黨 清典的官我不會對你有期待太高啦 你也不可能講出忤逆他們的話但是這些鐵針針 鐵罩罩的歷史事實擺在眼前不管說今天你們怎麼講 我也要講一個今天剛剛中憲委員會 王紅委員資訊重點只有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8873.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8897.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
作弊當然都要抓 我也不反對作弊要抓可是我看到一個是重如泰山的抓 一個輕如鴻毛的燒我告訴你 人民沒有那麼盲目 看得清清楚楚今天如果說這麼多的一個案件 是這種狀況的話我告訴你 大家看得清楚 最後一個結論講完 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8902.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8923.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
這麼多的力量這麼多的司法資源你放在一個剛剛吳宗憲我已經問過了以前從來不去啟用的所謂的績效的一個方式現在用績效去獎勵去抓了之後你有沒有想過站在後面的警政署啊有沒有想過站在後面的員警啊有沒有想過站在後面的老百姓啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8924.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8931.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
如果你今天有說一個陳菊走了問號能夠4小時逮人的效率去辦詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8933.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8960.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我剛剛一開始講的 那位太太通力合作 權力掃蕩的喔這個都是因為人民的苦 我們感同身受所以我們才會強力的掃蕩 才會打造司法的通過才會聯合在源頭的管制所以我們當然可以做得更好 我們一直都覺得我們做得不夠部長 你知道我現在質詢你 你也知道我對你都很尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8961.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8989.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
就像你剛剛一講話你也沒回答我問題 我還是讓你回答我講的是什麼 我講的跟你有矛盾嗎我講的跟你有矛盾嗎 我講一個最簡單的點啊今天司法資源就是有限的啊今天我今天遇到那位老太太她被詐騙幾百萬抱著我哭這就是鐵針針人民的現實啊那我剛剛說今天有人說陳菊走了問號在網路上問這句問號四小時逮到人難道不是事實嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8991.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9002.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
可是今天我說你的辦詐騙效率如果有像擺陳菊走了問號這樣的四個小時的績效的話也許那位老太太就不用抱著我哭啊謝謝你啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9017.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9039.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那這個部分因為吳委員有需要那我們就改為吳委員結束之後再休息五分鐘部長還有複密你們回去看一下法官論壇還有檢察官論壇很多基層的法官檢察官在抱怨政治辦案你們回去看一下論壇那個外人進不去的封閉式論壇你們可以看看那我們下一位請麥玉珍委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9047.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9062.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
主席好有請法務部長還有警政署署長署長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9065.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9091.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
部長好我們在今年4月聯合國發表報告我們適度點名台灣是國際詐騙重災區所以台灣是被為亞洲跨國詐騙集團的重要的據點之一也恭喜我們賴總統讓台灣被世界看到的目標4月份有 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9093.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9098.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
79名台灣人被柬埔寨逮捕後不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9100.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9126.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
遣返回台是接受司法審查而是直接送到中國請問我們的司法管轄區在哪裡這179名的台籍人士你們有沒有掌握身份名單有沒有舉動我們的偵查程序他們當中有沒有人早就是涉及我們國內的詐騙集團案件你們是否有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9127.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9136.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
他們的在台我們的這樣子的案件的記錄嗎還是說早已經完全脫離法務部的視野 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9141.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9158.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那這個部分就是之前在柬埔寨的一個我們台籍人士可能涉及這個詐騙那我們有駐外的一個警察的這個聯絡官有去配合外交部去做一個瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9159.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9177.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
那現在這個人員的這個名單跟涉案的情節也正在了解當中那不過做初步的了解這一些的人應該是詐騙大陸的這一個相關的一個這個情資的這個狀況的方向目前掌握的大概是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9178.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9203.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
所以說到今天還是沒有名單也沒有就是調查舉動那我們來請教一下是不是說我們政府已經主動放棄我們本國國民的司法管轄區呢還是說對 我再進一步請教對於就是前往柬埔寨緬甸這樣子的從事你們覺得是詐騙是不是國人這樣我們法務部有沒有任何的源頭的預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9205.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9231.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
有嗎跟委員報告那這邊保護部已經透過兩岸共打協議管道是聯絡陸方那要求陸方就依照我們兩岸共打協議來進行通報來保障來國人的權益那這部分我想我們一直在努力跟陸方再做一個聯絡我們希望能夠遣返 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9233.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9255.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
這我們問的是說你們有沒有掌握這個名單有沒有跨部會的調查有沒有說要求就是說我們的這些跟你們的就是台灣現在詐騙我們台灣的記錄的名單有沒有在裡面有沒有掌握我們的司法部這樣子都是在調查在研議的話我們人民對 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9256.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9273.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
就是這個法務部真的信任度在哪裡我們一定要了解這不是在研議已經現在已經跟陸方在做一個透過兩岸共打協議管道在聯絡在一個洽商之中了嘛所以你們是有名單了這個名單還要叫陸方要提供給我們嘛有嗎那現在還在聯絡還在協議 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9280.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9297.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
在那個接洽的時候所以協議到什麼時候這個我沒辦法去做跟那個保證就是等待嘛這邊神被動不能主動這個我們主動跟人家聯絡怎麼不是呢對 所以說我們就是主動但是還沒有明目嘛所以要問說都沒有明目 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9299.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9322.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
所以好再來我們就是就問也是沒有名目嘛所以我們希望說有名目這樣對我們一天被詐騙就是兩億的我們被詐騙的人民要有一個交代啦我們才能是真的是追回這個經費這樣才是我們要的這個騙的是因為是被害人是大陸人士啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9323.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9333.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
你明確這個是被害人都是大陸人數沒有我們的國民嗎?百分之百確定嗎?你百分之百確定這些嗎?你有沒有百分之百確定?他們詐騙是真的沒有我們的國民嗎?你有百分之百確定嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9344.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9351.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
你是猜測而已嘛這不是猜測 這是一個訊息 一個報導嘛報導 所以你都看報導來辦事的不是你們整個團隊去辦事的 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9356.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9380.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
所以我們再來再問我們的警政署署長現在我們就是不只守住我們國人還有連台灣在我們的移工在台灣也成為詐騙集團的眼中的肥羊最近在臉書冒用我們勞動部職聘中心的名義對移工進行詐騙還有要求叫 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9383.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9408.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
就是我們的證件費 還有結果也是受害了 就是財務損失所以我們要請教說 這個案子我們的警政署有沒有真實的立案偵查還有說有沒有追查到社團經營的IP來源還有沒有掌握相關的金流還有我們有沒有啟動這樣子的監管 這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9412.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9441.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
好這個部分我們發現有些詐團有一些對車手的這個部分是去類似徵採國外的徵採或者是外籍的這個移工那我們經過這個訊息我們警方大概會了解這個源頭來做一個偵查那我們對於這個潮這個外籍的車子也是這個數量也是非常多也是非常多那目前這個狀況應該有初步的一個遏制 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9442.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9444.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那我們也會跟隨時跟移民署跟勞動部來隨時聯繫的這個這相關的這個訊息未來會更加強這源頭的這個這個查集 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9454.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9470.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
但是我們就是說因為語言隔閡還有資訊不對等所以我們是假用我們政府的機關來去做一個陷阱所以面對那個假冒政府的單位我們也是一個弱勢被詐騙的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9472.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9494.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
所以我們有沒有依照打詐事法列入這樣子的辦案有沒有說就是冒名這樣官方的網站官方的名義去詐騙所以我們是要如何去協助因為我們看到你們的有一個網站就是說為了國外的網站但是全部 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9496.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9521.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
都是中文連英文都沒有所以說這個是在台灣我們現在是我們國外的人很多所以在詐騙裡面的經費被詐騙的也包含在裡面但是說我們現在都面臨這樣子的一個不只是國內的人國外人只要居住台灣的都有被詐騙所以我們希望說有沒有具體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9524.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9537.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
委員的意思是什麼樣的就是具體的部位是因為我們現在我們台灣已經說今天講的是我們是已經是很有名的國際有名的詐騙的一個管轄區 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9539.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9543.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
所以我們不能是讓說送去中國還沒有還沒有判的我們的國民還有移工被詐騙集團就變成是提款機我們政府現在的單位有沒有去研議所以說去了解我們的這次的職責我們聯合國也四度啊 四度點名所以我們希望說我們不能再假裝不知道啦我們團隊是一直在努力沒有不知道啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9567.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9587.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
不要讓我們的詐騙集團他們的台灣是一個溫泉所以我們希望說我們台灣這邊是不是說真正的做事的政府所以我們台灣現在新住民有60萬人移工有85萬人僑生有十幾萬人還有投資的還沒有算 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9588.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9606.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
所以我希望我們的警政署是不是設一個國際打仗特別小組才能是跨部會跨國來合作的一個單位我報告一下這個是一個整體概念不是說腳痛一頭頭痛一腳那現在政府機關有 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9608.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9623.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
團隊的一個打炸的一個指揮中心包括各部會是團體在一起有法律的依據那也面對這個炸機的趨勢做聚焦的打擊我們不是完全都不知不知的話那這個我覺得這個講這個太沉重了那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9624.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9651.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
炸機的這個趨勢也不斷的演變那我們也不斷的改變這個打造的這個策略那從去年的打造事法到目前為止我們已經對於案件的發生數跟案件的財損數已經有往下降的趨勢是有劣勁成效但是仍然有努力的空間我們是有有方法有團隊一起來做打造我想這個我委員應該對我們應該有信心 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9651.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9675.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
有方法有團隊但是我們現在的就是我們已經被點名四次了所以我現在是我們要來的是協助解決問題不是說我們有很偉大的多少部門但是問題的效果我們要的效果我們效果現在已經有成效了台灣有那麼多外國人別人可以利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9676.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9677.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
就是不同語言去詐騙不同國家的人在我們台灣但是我們呢我們有那麼多人在台灣為什麼我們不要去用一個國際打詐的一個小組團隊用這一群人來去協助你去打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9694.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9711.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
這樣子的話我們可以跨部會又可以有效的這樣子對我們的國民也好對海外的詐騙集團也好也有對我們國民有幫助嘛所以我們希望說我們要有這樣子的一個國際打詐的小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9712.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9740.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
應用我們台灣有的資源有不同國家的語言這樣才更有效力啊我沒有說我們現在做的說多不好但是我們是建議說我們多一個管道多一個方法才對我們國民更有幫助希望我們的署長還有我們的法務部我們還有民民署我們跨部會的如何才不會讓說別人這樣子去點名我們就是東南亞的 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9742.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9765.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
的一個角色所以我們是要並說就是強化數位的增長希望是這樣因為時間有限所以我們希望說我們的各個部會要來跨部會來如何就是成立這樣子的一個多一個打架的小組對我們才真正的有幫助我的目的是這樣好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9769.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9784.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
好 謝謝 那下一位我們請李坤澄委員發言謝謝主席 我們請這個法務部的鄭部長麻煩部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9790.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9819.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
委員好來 部長好 辛苦了這個本席先請教那有一位政治人物他講這個與其去打壓罷免不如來好好的來打仗那你對這句話的看法怎麼樣謝謝委員長那個打仗是非常非常重要的那這個罷免這個是因為腐蝕人民那個民主政治的儲值所以是非常重要而且你圍繞一個鼠鴨救一個被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9820.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9834.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那圍繞很多人這可能會影響很多的民主政治他我們用票選出來的這些的候選人那我想這個嚴重影響這個民主政治的因為我們是一個民主一個是一個透過選舉罷免讓我們人民的參政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9837.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9855.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
能夠落實這才是民主法治國家那委員剛剛講了說這樣的有些關心那個打仗當然我們打仗的確是很嚴重權勢很重而且我們在台灣我們不希望打仗成為全民之痛所以我們將心比心我們雖然沒有被騙但是因為我們的辦案人員能夠體系說這個詐騙這個是讓我們的社會的穩定 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9863.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9879.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
非常的嚴重所以我們是全力的打詐所以部長意思是說去查偽造連署的去查死人連署的跟打詐是一樣重要嗎都非常重要都一樣重要一個是侵蝕這個我們這個民主法制的基礎是那另外詐騙呢那當然是死非安定嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9880.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9904.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
每個人不管是你本身或是說你的親朋好友可能都有類似這個案件那我就來問你 因為今天的題目有提到說這個聯合國毒品跟犯罪問題辦公室它有一個infraction point這個報告那早上有很多委員都問過那因為它有提到說是台灣那我先請問一下這份報告到底真實性如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9904.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9920.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那跟他上面所提到不論是幫派或是說這個線上的博弈這個BG1 BG2等等之類的你們有去了解這個整個情況是怎麼樣嗎那如果跟他所描述的不實的話有沒有管道去做澄清跟說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9921.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9944.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那這部分的確說來自聯合國毒品及犯罪問題的一個辦公室下載的但這些報告有說明這份報告雖然是由員工跟專家編寫但內容沒有經過正式的編輯跟確認所以不代表這個辦公室當然它代不代表是另外一回事我是說它寫的這個東西有沒有符合現實的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9946.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9973.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
這個沒有符合現實的就是說他所寫描述的東西他這個都是跟台灣你們所了解的現實的是不是完全是不一樣的是不一樣的而且這裡面的話他是沒有政府關鍵文件所以這個一個立場雖然是有提到說什麼涉及到毒品那個詐欺什麼幫派的但是這裡面也沒有人名也沒有那個公司名所以我們也試圖去了解去注意當然我們一直持續在注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9976.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10002.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
所以就像哈索提到說有什麼這個線上博弈BG1 BG2然後了解一些幫派等等你們 據你們了解沒有像他這個這個調查局我們也是請調查局就一個了解嘛當然有些三合會的那一部分當然我也做一個法辦了嘛但也不是因為這份報告我們才去法辦而且我們一直持續在注意幫派那如果像部長所講就是說哈索裡面所這些報告的內容其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10004.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10022.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
可信度是還要再查證啦那如果說這個是跟現狀不符的話有沒有管道去做澄清跟說明因為其實這個報告出來那不管怎麼樣因為他是掛一個聯合國的一個報告嘛一個毒品犯罪問題辦公室的一個報告有沒有管道去澄清跟去說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10022.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10046.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
目前台灣的狀況是怎麼樣我想我們在查證後我們再做一個澄清那我想如果有的話那我們當然要檢討不論是法務部調查局或是警政署要做檢討那如果沒有的話我認為還是要去做個說明因為這對於台灣的這個形象會有影響啊還把這個台灣跟這些東南亞一些國家掛在一起那好像說我們台灣的這些問題跟他們一樣有嚴重啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10047.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10061.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
而且他是掛一個POC這個是對我們非常不友善的這又是另外一個問題啦那另外我想請教一下那個我們這個馬市長你現在是這個哪吒中心的指揮官嘛那部長這個先請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10070.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10088.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
這個五月四號媒體有披露說這個詐團利用這個監理服務網的電子郵件然後說你這個民眾有交通違規預期的那附一個email給你然後點進去之後那其實就是一個釣魚的網站然後要收集你的個資那其實我在四月初的時候就收到澄清 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10089.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10115.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
就是說他有交通違規但是有交通違規呢他是3月20號他說他沒有做任何的繳款動作暫時在4月4號就收到詐騙的信件所以他高度懷疑啦那會不會說是我們的這個監理所其實也被我不知道是被入侵了被駭客入侵了還是說詐團就是說我們的監理所跟詐團之間是不是有某種程度的配合就是說民眾違規這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10117.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10146.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
然後呢他過沒多久他就收到一個一個詐騙的一個信件就是說啊你已經違規了那奇怪了那怎麼詐團會知道這種違規的事情你們有沒有去了解我跟委員報告我們有收到我們有收到類似的案件那每一次我們收到類似案件基本上我們都會請當事的部會我們會列管而且去找清楚原因那就這個監理站這個問題這個問題的背後當然一定是跟個資外協有關但是他的管道我們現在還不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10146.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10173.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
因為對於這個監理單位的這個包括有停車費的問題也包括有剛剛委員提到罰單的問題那我們最近還有很多民眾接到就是醫院要領藥這樣的一個訊息其實我們現在都有在每一次接到這樣的類似的個案的時候我們都會對外發布新聞說明就有這樣的個案請民眾要注意那這是事後了啦我那時候你要去查 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10173.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10193.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
他就說那為什麼像監理單位或是說像醫院這些個資會外洩因為這些個資外洩就表示說這有可能是潛在的被詐騙的一些對象啊對所以這個部分跟委員報告我們會跟行政院各支處的籌備處來合作去處理這個問題那所以呢到現在還沒有找到原因在哪裡就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10193.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10217.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我們可能後續我們跟那個各支會討論確認以後我們跟委員回報因為他後面的原因蠻複雜的這樣子因為我是比較擔心就是說因為他是監禮站那監禮站有民眾會覺得說那是公家機關所以他給的一些訊息有些人就是覺得說啊好啦那既然有這個未違規了然後既然有一個這麼簡便的一個方式我可以直接線上交款那可能就被詐騙了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10218.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10242.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
所以這部分的話我是希望說 不論是這個我們的監理站或是說其他我們很多的公家機關 我都很擔心都已經各自外洩了這個已經被這個詐團攻陷了 那所以我們很多這個民眾的各自都外流那淪為被詐騙的潛在的對象 那我覺得這部分要去查清楚你講那個發布什麼新聞 那個都是事後的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10243.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10258.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
對委員這個部分個案能不能把資料給我們我們就直接來處理因為從個案可以追到很多的通案好啊沒問題啊我們每一次只要接到個案我們都會從個案去追通案好所以我這個個案會給你啦好那我不好意思我最後再請教一下這一個正部長齁這個簡單問一下不好意思這個齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10264.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10289.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
貴婦奶奶她逃亡七年 吸金上億 前幾天回來投案吸金上億 結果兩百萬就交保好像是她的公公吧好像之前也回來投案 五十萬就交保這個民眾會覺得說 詐騙吸金上億 花個兩百萬就可以交保後續這些錢也可能追查不回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10290.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10305.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
就民眾會覺得說 那奇怪了 那所以這個詐騙是一門好生意嗎我可以吸金上業人 然後反正我交保就只有兩百萬那最後刑責 也不知道怎麼樣啦那我就覺得說 這方面的話 對於民眾來講社會觀感是非常的不好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10308.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10336.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
局長這個交保金是回來投案之後就給他交保兩百萬那檢察官給他限制出境出海給他做電子監控那我想是不是要羈押我想這個我也只能說我尊重沒有我是尊重啦我是講說整體的社會觀感我沒有去介入說這一個到底是兩百萬還是五百萬還是一千萬我不是指這個意思我的意思是說現在為什麼詐騙集團這麼犯呢原因之一就是說他很容易交保 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10337.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10356.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
然後交保金也很低然後呢 刑責可能也不重那所以說會演變成是說那大家覺得說這個好像投報率很高我想委員的這個寶貴反映民眾的聲音我想陳判決他應該會聽得到好啦 就反映一些民眾的聲音給你們啦好 謝謝 加油啦好 謝謝好 謝謝那下一位我們請吳思瑤委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10372.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10397.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
謝主席 我也請鄭部長 然後也請我們指揮官行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心馬指揮官委員早那樹發部的代表也準備一下好 我今天的主題非常的明確喔台灣要打架國家隊台灣成立打詐國家隊但是在野黨卻在扯後腿嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10399.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10419.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
口口聲聲說要打炸要防炸那今天質詢的委員呢回去之後就可以剪影片做圖卡發文說自己好關心打炸可是呢省預算的時候大砍預算大動預算讓我們的打炸政策作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10420.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10444.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
綁手綁腳 動彈不折 下一頁喔這個是速發布喔 速發布是這一次政府總預算這個受災戶最嚴重的山洞合併超過七成 也就是剩下三成的錢可以花當中對於監管網路平台 落實廣告實名制要打炸就受阻了 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10445.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10469.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
然後我們要開發AI的分析網路詐騙的這個系統然後來減少人力的負擔自動化可以通報只剩下三成的錢可以用了我們要出國交流國際的這個情報能夠互相的匯報要司法互助我們要資安技術的合作預算剩三成我看下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10473.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10497.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
內政部警政署也是重災戶啊在打詐相關預算裡頭大山大洞超過兩成所以呢你的影響就是協助人民要懂得視詐辯視詐騙這資訊傳播管道我們要宣傳我們要政策的配套我們要人力我們要物力還有網路流量記錄資料庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10499.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10520.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
要對打炸毒品槍砲而效性侵犯罪業務的推廣難道因為預算只剩就打八折了嗎再來我請指揮官喔還據說你們指揮中心的預算更慘到底有多慘 來說一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10521.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10546.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
跟委員報告其實指揮中心我們所用到的預算不多但是大部分都是在我們的會議所需要因為是行政院的業務費被刪那也跟委員報告我們從去年9月份成立到現在我們現在總共各式會議我們召開了92次92場但是我們現在的預算就是每個月剩下9000塊可以租影音機那其他的預算都沒有了Pardon me |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10547.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10570.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
你的指揮中心每個月預算剩9000塊只可以租引印機那你要開92場會今年就沒得開啦我們就是開但是用我們各自複習的方式所以大家聽聽看喔請大家告訴大家行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心的預算被砍到每個月剩9000塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10573.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10591.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我們到底是要支持政府打詐防詐還是要讓政府沒有辦法打詐防詐然後乾脆向詐騙集團投降好了書發布我剛剛說你們的預算七成被煽動難道你們的業務以後就打三折了嗎怎麼辦啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10593.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10614.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
是 報告委員 雖然我們的預算確實是有受到影響影響打架非常嚴重嘛 對不對 尤其在網路那一塊是的 那但是呢 因為我們還是透過公司協力的部分來跟我們的網路廣告平台業者一起來做一個努力喔所以讓你們要加倍努力啊 事倍公辦啊 去總結啊 去合作啊 去拜託民間啊 做回來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10615.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10623.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
是 我想其實民間應該也有網路廣告平台業者也有這樣的義務警政署署長就你們怎麼辦啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10626.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10654.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
你們以後預算就請在野黨的委員不要來argue你們的預算你們的政策來對 我覺得就是有一些我們推動的就是在宣導讓全民防災的意識能夠再做提升所以這個部分就是刪跟動的比較嚴重一點然後你的網路流量網路流量的一個這件事就是要去追源頭的這些相關的設備也是動的比較多一點動了大概8.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10656.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10678.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
所以啊 8.8億嘛對不對 我現在看到你們內政部在打詐業務光凍結就是10.8億嘛是天啊如果說在野黨的委員關心打詐要向詐騙集團宣戰結果來砍 來刪 來動預算那我要說在野黨就是台灣政治圈最大的詐騙集團我們看下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10683.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10700.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
今天呢主席排的這個會議主題是引用聯合國的這個毒品跟打架辦公室的一個報告剛剛我聽到前面您的回答部長的回答是說其實他的真實性還帶確認因為他不是官方確認的文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10701.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10719.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
但即便如此 雖然不能盡信 但是一些揭露的事項 我們也是可以來納入參考政策的研議包括這個報告告訴了我們 跨國組織犯罪的生態系已經轉型了由傳統的毒品轉向工業化的網路詐騙跟資安犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10721.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10742.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
這個報告也告訴我們詐騙集團高度的整合化跟企業化的運作虛擬資產洗錢人口販運地下金融AI都一起這個磨高一尺道就要高一丈喔第三呢這個報告也告訴我們整個犯罪據點是轉向無政府管控或是非國家武裝 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10744.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10770.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
控制的地區就是東南亞的地區這個報告告訴了我們詐騙金額實在是嚇死人光東亞東南亞就損失就這個去年度的報告370億美元這是這個報告告訴我們的下一頁可以參考的地方參考但是不能盡信也就是說不能輕易的採信的地方也請大家不要去渲染 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10771.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10785.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
這個報告有把台灣打成是詐騙之島嗎?剛剛我還看在野黨的文說 恭喜喔 恭喜喔 台灣登上世界舞台天啊 用這種幸災樂禍的心情來看待我們的國家打架的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10786.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10795.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
部長您要回答之前我來提醒一下這個報告我讀到的是他們在東亞觀察出特殊經濟詐騙源區就是金三角有緬甸、柬埔寨跟寮國而台灣的角色我們是受害者來源國之一就是我們是受害國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10804.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10822.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
而且當然台灣跟個案的關聯有關但是台灣絕對不是這個報告的主體我就以我整理了報告內的各國出現的頻率中國最高在整篇報告當中中國被提到102次台灣被提到26次 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10826.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10853.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
泰國、日本、寮國、緬甸、柬埔寨、菲律賓被提到的次數都高於台灣所以如果在野黨的委員來說這個報告你看國際證實了台灣就是全球最嚴重東南亞最慘的詐騙之島這是事實嗎?部長這個不是這個報告雖然是對我們非常的不友善但這個報告其實它的來源這個來源也是我們也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10854.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10879.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
他搞不好也是一個詐騙那另外他裡面的話最主要的講的就是一個東亞跟東寮各國的一個情形那當然把台灣也寫進去但是最主要的他是講說有四個案例有四個案件他有一些的主要的嫌犯或者什麼他曾經跟台灣有關聯譬如說他以前20年前或幾十年前在台灣居住後那個人來自台灣但是他已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10880.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10904.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
已經是落實在那些東南亞的國家了因為個案有被提及台灣的觀點但是台灣在這整個通篇報導當中告訴我們台灣其實在報告當中的身份是受害者來源國之一台灣被提及的頻率26次中國被提到102次其他國家的防詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10906.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10921.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
恐怕他們面對的情勢比我們更險峻但是我們台灣絕對要加強因為詐騙集團就是人民共同心中承受非常大的壓力我們必須做 下一頁所以說對應於這個防詐報告的五大建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10922.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10927.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
我沒有時間講事實上從提高政治層級的關注行政院做到了卓院長宣告成立了防炸行動綱領2.0我們成立了打炸國家隊第二個這個報告提出要強化制度跟監管的工具以及第三點執法跟技術的能力要upgrade我們就是修了打炸四法有新的武器M化車GPS追蹤然後網路流量紀錄可以調取我們都做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10949.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10978.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
然後呢這個報告希望推動整合性的回應機制台灣建立了打詐儀表板上路了還有要深化區域跟國際合作台灣努力在做包括法務部的司法互助但是很遺憾出國的預算都被在野黨的委員山根砍誰在扯台灣打詐的後腿在野黨的委員要反求諸己啊為什麼要跟自己的國家為敵啊下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10980 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10992.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那去年我們努力的在司法法治委員會通過了打炸司法所以在法治的健全我們努力做到有了法治才能夠有政策精良的武器下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10993.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11006.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
即便我們預算被砍成這樣這些數字我精準的來整理如果我有錯部長可以指正從去年11月到今年4月我們的打炸的財損金額減少39.9%從126.6億減少到76.2億雖然76.2億還是很高啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11017.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11033.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
我們還是要向詐騙集團宣戰啦但是有努力有效果第二個受理的案件減少11.5%也就是過去113年11月有18000多件的詐騙案件到今年4月已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11034.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11062.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
減到一萬五千九百六十一件但是還不還是讓人家很痛啊我們還是要繼續努力但是請讓我們團隊打炸國家隊努力的成果要告訴社會政府努力在做在詐騙案件跟財損金額逐步降低我的陳述正確嗎正確所以請給政府支持跟力量如果預算沒有被刪被動我相信我們可以做得更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11063.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11068.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
我們可以全面向詐騙集團宣戰而不是現在綁手綁腳預算解凍還要等立法院後續的程序在下一頁而以網路詐騙的猩猩犯罪裡頭因為我們推動了網路的廣告實名制這速發部的業務所以這半年來的網路詐騙的下降假投資廣告下降了31.3%網路購物下降了12.2%假買家 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11093.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11098.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
的詐騙賣家下降了17.2%假中獎通知也下降了9.27%假交友徵詐騙也下降了24.4%即便我們預算被砍被動但是速發步我們努力做到請問我的數字速發步正確嗎是的 報告委員正確但是我們還是不滿意本席也不滿意 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11119.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11143.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
你們現在防堵網路平台詐騙三個階段第一個我們做到的是落實了廣告實名制今年1月1號上路但是未來要強要擴大對於平台的責任包括要求Meta Line Google YT來訂定他們的防詐防欺的計畫以及要求各個平台提出年度的透明度報告你們現在磋商的如何啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11144.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11154.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
是 報告委員有關於廣告實名制的這個部分呢各平台都已經開始在做而且也已經送給我們去做合規的審查我知道 但是後面你要求他們做房計房價計畫是 房計房價計畫的部分呢我們五月底前會審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11159.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11179.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
現在也陸續送到粉署來太好了 是的這是好消息 平台願意配合是 是 他們願意配合那並且依照這樣的一個房價計畫裡面相關的一個風險的評估跟對應的模式的處理我們也會輔導他們要去合乎他們的房價計畫來做一個進行那到年底的時候就會有一個透明度的報告出來好 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11180.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11203.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
這是好消息這麼多壞消息當中的好消息我們終於強化跟平台責任的互相公司的協力我期待你們五月提出來的好最後一點因為因為預算被刪被動我要提醒你們速發部現在我們我們現在的打架的兩大檢舉平台一個是速發部主管的一個是警政署的165 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11204.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11232.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
兩個當中其實案件量都很高可是你們人力有限速發部是要用AIAI去做但是預算被砍然後警政署是用人力你們人力很吃力但是兩大平台來收受這個檢舉雖然強強聯手可是我覺得你們的借接跟合作不夠多可能都在重複受理同樣的案件所以你們可不可以請指揮中心指揮官來匯整整合一下這兩個平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11234.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11249.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
因為也要因應預算 被刪 被凍 速發不就沒頂沒檔啦警政署也一樣啦所以我也認為制度上讓兩大檢舉平台每個月八萬件 想辦法讓他們可以合作分流而不是彼此重疊互相打架 這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11250.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11275.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
可以的沒問題謝謝委員好我們一起努力我們無論如何向詐騙集團宣戰我們要行動預算被刪被砍但是我們的法治已經健全了就做眼前能夠做的事我們要加重300%的努力才能夠補回我們預算被刪被砍人民持續的被詐騙受害的這個狀況我給你們無限的祝福跟打氣加油謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11276.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11298.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
謝謝吳委員 我們今天的會議持續進行至所有委員巡邏完畢為止因為剛剛我們有先宣告吳校委員巡邏完畢之後休息五分鐘因為不好意思 因為之前就已經宣告很之前就宣告抱歉 跟兩位委員說聲抱歉那我們現在休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11604.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11606.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
主席麻煩我們的警政署署長麻煩署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11631.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11634.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
每年性影像犯罪有多少案件 有多少被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11649.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11660.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
這個數據我手頭沒有這個數據,未來在事後再提供給你們那我們就看性影像的犯罪持續事實上是成長的從這數據可以看到112年跟113年相較事實上113年成長了66%光今年的1月就有530名的被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11672.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11684.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
那這些都還是浮在檯面上的喔檯面下的不願報案的我相信不計其數其中我覺得比較關注可以關注的就是說未成年跟成年人的被害的比例是 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11688.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11703.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
這個差異性很高那從結果上來看的話成年人的案量比較大我們先不討論未成年他可能去阻礙到沒辦法進入到司法體系的其他原因我們先來談的是其他的問題問題一我要提到的是成人影像的案件裡邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11705.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11723.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
特別去看實務上存在幾個問題一是我們可以看到量能不足的問題主要體現在地方護幼隊編制以行政業務為主我想署長應該也知道光是處理龐大的行政聯繫事項就已經疲於奔命了那如何做到偵查防治還有其次 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11724.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11753.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
在目前可知運用的強制處分的手段上受限於法規的門檻跟程序兒少類的性影像餘率可以處理可是一旦跨過18歲就處處受到限制再來處理案件的流程欠缺我們的專業性受理被害人報案後沒有先申請我們的搜索扣押就通知嫌疑人證據往往就在這過程當中不見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11754.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11778.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那最後就算第一線的員警有意願有熱情有專業有敏感度要去處理但地方分局的設備跟自身的偵查能力呢都可能讓我們的員警心有餘慮而慮不足那也想 吸救問題我覺得看白話來講就是常看到的就是沒錢又沒有人但我相信大家都知道性影像這個犯罪問題呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11779.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11796.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
非常嚴重那相信署長應該也很重視那我就好奇每一年的預算有多少所以想問署長你覺得性影響犯罪是嚴重犯罪嗎那就要再請教今年的也就是數位性暴力的防治預算有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11796.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11815.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那跟委員報告這有關這個預算裡面是統編在科技偵查的預算裡面不會說對針對性影像專者編這個預算也是在偵查針在偵辦科技犯罪的一個預算的的範範酬裡面沒有這專者這樣提列出來的一個預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11816.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11832.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我看到我現在拿到的數據是601萬300元主要大家都在教育訓練宣導費用除非就像剛剛署長提的是說你發科技偵辦裡面可是我們現在拿到可是相對的來講今年宣布 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11833.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11857.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
預防兒少犯罪方案就76億元喔這是預防性的齁那大概如果以這樣601萬來比的話大概就佔到0.07而已如果橫比上來看的話那比例上那所以是小巫見大巫所以問了警政署說那為何沒有專項的預算因為既然這個問題很嚴重可是得到回覆是說喔還在評估當中沒有錢又沒有人那現況怎麼辦呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11858.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11870.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
是要靠員警的熱情嗎員警基層努力嗎 努力就會有收穫嗎所以我不知道說整個想來問署長你的性影像案件的續講怎麼計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11871.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11898.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那對於姓李這樣的一個續講我想也是採取比較中獎的方式來鼓勵同仁偵辦這個案件那這個偵辦案件裡面我們大概有兩個面向第一個大概我們會主動去做網路上的去做巡邏了解這個整個的來源再來就是備案的這個報案那這部分我想就是我們全國各警察機關對於這項的工作是非常重視的 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11898.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11927.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
那當然這個我們的主責的單位是在附幼附幼隊的一個專責但是偵辦的單位大概都會只有地方警察局的偵查隊或是警察局的刑警大隊會來做一個偵查那現在偵查的這個能量跟能力我想應該沒有問題就是說對於這些的案件的一個力道未來我們會加強對於這個方面的一個偵查我現在問你的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11927.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11954.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
所以我們來看一下你的續講的整個這樣子我應該講說不是酒駕不重要可是案件複雜程度的話應該是性影像比較複雜而且酒駕相對事實上單純可是續講的計算怎麼差異這麼大也就是說今天處理性影像沒累積事件才加獎一次可是酒駕的話就是計班車就加獎一次如果汽車的話加獎兩次 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11956.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11978.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
這橫比上真的落差非常的大這樣子的話我們是要去靠我們的基層的熱情嗎委員 這個部分我們拿回去再做檢討就是對於基地 市區這個部分我都同意來做滾動式的一個檢討讓我們的同仁更有這些的熱情對 如果他們很努力的話應該要去做鼓勵對 從優來去講我想創意私房也好 觸感空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11983.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12011.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
這兩個在發生之後真的對我們耳哨影響非常非常的大這個案件尤其是在刑事局跟我在台北市府的時候這兩個案子的偵查偵辦希望你們回去好好的去檢討那問題四呢最後一個問題就是我覺得青春專案當然我之前有看也有委員質詢過可是我還是有好奇的兩個問題就是首先如果不是專案執行期間遇到耳哨性剝削犯罪你到底查不查緝啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12012.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12036.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我從基層收到的食物的狀況不是這樣子喔只不過就是因為青州案件每年在七八月大概暑期的期間有一些青少年大概就是我們的這些學生大概就是都放假可是如果牽扯到續講的話他可能會等到後邊才去做的話那這樣子的話對於我覺得兒少的性剝削這件事情就不會有力道出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12037.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12048.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
對 所以我剛剛委員所提的對於核酸性剝削的這些的有功或者是這些的出力的同仁我要重新來檢討這個獎勵的制度你要通盤檢討通盤來檢討獎勵的制度還有另外一個我要問的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12052.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12075.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
兒少的這三個狀況 也就是自我剝削的情形譬如說他自己在住處招攬性交易或者是在包養網站上刊登自身的一些訊息因為他還沒發生嘛 兒少在網路上傳自身的性影像因為還沒有所謂的加害人 到底要不要救援那救援有沒有分數啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12077.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12092.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
這個部分就是未過程之前的這個可能要研究一下可能有一些主辦單位就是這個主管機關是不是要加入一起來已經是在PO這些東西的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12093.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12109.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
因為我們的確過去事實上是要救救除棄現在很多時候是志願的那我們要怎麼去防堵我覺得這件事情還是要來努力還有不要忘記我們是CRC跟CDO的私刑國所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12110.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12134.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
兒權公約明年也要交第三次國家報告了我們第34條他就很清楚的是說我們應該承諾保護兒童免於所有形式的性剝削跟性虐待那CITO也是這樣子提及所以不要忘記是明年到底要怎麼去交因為我們的這樣的犯罪這麼樣的嚴重明年要交第三次國家報告之後你怎麼去提及這個所以最後我就期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12135.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12155.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
就請署長針對於像第一點檢討修正我們心理上處理流程來強化第一線的員警的專業智能不過第二項我就要請法務部部長也在這邊麻煩你們檢討強制處分適用案件跟程序來提升我們的偵查權限跟優化辦案效率不知道部長這邊OK嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12158.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12176.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
我們回去嚴厲OK那第三回來還是希望我們署長這邊擴大性犯罪的偵犯能量來要有專項的經費預算然後挹注足夠的人力然後他請你全面檢討所有的整個續講機制不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12176.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12202.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
在青春專案那個時間點或者是跟酒駕的不對等的這樣的續講方式沒有辦法讓人家更奮力的去辦這件事情否則真的就是在消耗他們的熱情而已所以再來最後就是檢討我們的那個青春專案的規劃跟執行那麻煩兩位就是是不是可以兩週後給我我這提的五項給我那個報告好 可以好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請黃珊珊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12216.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12218.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
現在請甄部長還有司法院副秘書長副秘 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12226.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12251.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
好 部長好 蜂蜜好我想今天是打大專報去年立法院通過了打大專法尤其是詐欺危害防治條例那現在執行的狀況剛剛也看到很多委員質詢說的確是有一些成效但是現在碰到我認為比較嚴重的問題它第47條規定說犯詐欺犯罪在偵查還有歷次的審判中自白 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12252.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12269.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
如果有犯罪所得要自動繳交其犯罪所得的要減輕其刑現在的問題就是立法院跟法務部在去年在這個場域裡面我們大家所探討的就是我們的打詐專法是要加重加嚴對吧 部長是 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12270.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12297.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
加重加嚴是你法務的立場 也是立法院的立場所以在差異法案條例都有比新法座比較對 所以這個很清楚我們同意自白加上犯罪所得繳回 得解清其刑錯我們這個是避檢 這個法條就要避檢另外查獲 主持的相關的組織的話是避檢或避免 免除其刑這個情況是法務部的立場 也是司法院的立場嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12299.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12324.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
是但是現在最大的問題是司法務部立法院都非常認真的立了這個法加重加嚴但現在的問題是在法院法官們對於犯罪所得認定有很大的歧義也就是說他們對於立法者立法一直不明不了解或者是他們自行做了解釋所以刑事最高法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12327.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12348.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
的刑三庭申請了大法庭解釋這個問題就在於法務部認為我們的犯罪所得是什麼 部長你認為的犯罪所得是什麼是整體詐團的 就是被害人的被害人的受害金額 受害金額好 但是法院把它認為是車手得到的報酬 是嗎 副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12350.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12362.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
這個部分確實法院之間有不同見解所以現在才要大法庭來解釋那我要在這邊問的是這個法案送到立法院來之前在法務部跟司法院沒有討論過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12364.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12393.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
在這個委員會在審查的法案的同時司法院的刑事廳也有人派人在現場做了非常非常明確的詢答而且他也清楚的知道立法意向為什麼到司法院之後完全沒有任何的沒有任何的共識甚至在每個法庭的法官有不同的見解這才是我今天要問的部長你們之前有跟司法院溝通過犯罪所得的標準跟你們的立場立法的意旨還有立法院的意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12395.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12420.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
立法說明是有寫立法說明有寫司法院刑事廳不知道還是他知道然後沒有辦法做出同意解釋還是讓法官自己解釋現在問題就是法務部立法院加重加嚴我們的法院拼命在減輕然後還要大法庭解釋這不是很奇怪嗎副秘書長你們司法院沒有參與他們的修法過程和立法議職嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12421.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12449.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
是有會嫌有會嫌那為什麼會出現這種狀況現在相關的法院大部分的法官認為說車手只拿了幾千塊要他賠幾十萬很不很平這我也可以理解但是我還是回到原點原來我們的立法意旨到底是什麼第二個現在這樣的起義造成了非常多民眾的觀感我們在打詐打假的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12450.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12464.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
一樣啦 詐欺犯這麼輕 只要說我沒拿到錢只要自白 只要說我還沒有拿到報酬就減輕欸 甚至就放人欸部長 你們的立法意志 司法院不知道是嗎你們之前有溝通嗎部長 你要不要回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12472.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12496.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
這個在行政院審查會的時候司法院就派人我今天的問題是好5月14號大法庭要做解釋了現在看起來大部分的法院法庭的幾個庭 最高法院三個九個庭只有一個庭支持法務部啦另外八個庭都不支持你啦接下來具體要怎麼辦解釋出來如果犯罪所的是大法庭解釋說是車手個人的報酬 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12498.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12515.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
法務部要不要帶來修法還是我們要幫你修法還是你的立場要不要講清楚啊如果說大法庭解釋是不是採被害人的被害金而說的話那就是違反你的立法意志啊那我們就是要啟動修法不是要啟動修法你現在就準備好5月14號你的法案就進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12516.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12535.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
立法委員都支持你們結果我們自己一個國家的體制完全互相不聯絡然後法官我相信他也是在找一個平衡點所以你們在修法的時候司法院就應該表達你們的立場你們希望的平衡點在哪裡法務部不能我們這邊做壞人你們這邊做好人啊副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12536.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12558.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
如果修法你們要不要參與呢還是你們的意見是什麼如果法庭都是這樣的意見那就拿出來你們的版本說台灣的中華民國的最高法院不希望加重加嚴而不是我們修法修了半天法官拼命在放人你可以理解我的意思嗎所以在修法是必然是嗎 部長要看判決的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12562.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12585.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
如果他的判決結果不符原來的立法意旨你多久之內要送法案來立法院全體幾乎不分黨派全部支持打詐專法結果搞到今天這個樣子剛剛講的什麼打詐的已經都騙人了啦抓到人判不了刑然後最後他自己隨便說說交個三千塊五千塊他就沒事了 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12586.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12606.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
你要這些年輕人繼續投入詐騙集團嗎繼續被詐騙集團所用嗎因為發現沒事所以大家繼續來打詐是越打越詐兩位我希望在5月14號的判決以後不管怎麼樣的結果如果不符合原來法務部送到立法院的立法意旨請你在一個月之內提案修法可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12608.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12637.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
還是我們來努力好 司法院我覺得也是一樣如果你們都派人來立法院聽了 詢答了看到立法委員每一個義憤填膺的要怎麼修不可以到法庭上是另外一種結果副秘書長 這是你們的責任要把相關的立法一直很普遍的讓所有的法官都能夠明瞭否則法律各自解釋那我們不用在這邊浪費時間我們修完了你們解釋我們修完了你們解釋 最後什麼修法沒有用 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12638.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12661.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
就廢物啊就立了一些廢法好嗎部長這是你的承諾如果5月14號的結果我一個月等你的相關的法案我覺得要給立法委員一個交代是謝謝委員好謝謝那下一個我們請葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之徐欣盈徐欣盈徐欣盈好下一個我們請陳培宇委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12673.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12677.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
好 謝謝主席我想先請警政署還有抒發部 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12686.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12708.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
好謝謝兩位我們就直接來談我們覺得可能一般人會很有感的詐欺案例其實在去年從去年到今年其實棒球一直在台灣是一個非常重要的話題那一旦它成為話題成為輿情成為流量它就會成為詐欺商品的周邊商品的可能性對不對我想這個你們一定都可以理解沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12709.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12720.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
那所以我們可以看到在這個截圖上面他說大家快來搶購同款就是這個台灣 聽台灣的T-shirt然後當時有注意到呢這個其實是一個詐騙網頁但是他開始賣這個球衣那這個是二月的截圖我們來往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12726.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12742.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
然後呢這個假的粉絲頁呢他就不斷地開始推播所以導致這個真正的粉絲頁的本尊就在三月中還有三月底連續發了兩篇的聲明告訴球迷要小心那個是假的粉絲頁那個是詐騙大家不要真的就去買了這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12743.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12753.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
那代表說這件事情有流量然後這個本尊粉絲頁也是有流量的可是可以看得出來這個粉絲頁的本尊他其實非常非常的無奈那照理說我認為這樣的案例因為確實過去比較少可是因為他有新聞流量所以他就變成很容易讓人家下單去購買的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12760.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12781.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
對象這樣那結果後來看起來他就跟臉書檢舉也沒有用那身為一般球迷或者是這個粉絲專業的版主可以怎麼做我們看到其實警政署也好書發部也好你們有那個APP可以檢舉相關的事情那我們來看一下確實這個打架打架有成效剛剛很多委員也說了去年我們看到刑事局下架了12萬筆 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12783.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12808.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
如果按照今年一到四月就已經五萬兩千多筆我合理推估可能到年底會超過十五萬筆對不對可能會更多但是基本的預估大概是十五萬筆那我覺得這件事情非常重要這個對國人來說是一個可行看起來大家可以信任的平台跟機制可是我要有一個小小的提醒從一剛開始我說有流量有輿情它就會有詐騙的可能現在你們所有橫跨的平台裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12813.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12838.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
翠是沒有包含的 對嗎對好 翠這個平台是沒有包含但是我們很感謝警政署你們在12月7號去年你們就提醒大家新興平台翠的串文要注意就是它可能真的會有相關詐騙雖然我後來去看了一下雖然現在他們還沒有開始讓廣告主可以投放廣告但是不管是很多直銷商啦或者是金融買賣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12840.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12866.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
帳號他們確實是用發文的方法用圖卡的方法用拍影片的方法想要吸引更多人關注他的帳號然後甚而造成可能有詐騙的可能性我再說一次他雖然沒有投放廣告但是他用發文用圖卡用影片的方法他還是會造成相關消費者的混淆然後就構成了相關詐騙的可能性我很想知道在目前翠在你們兩個部會的規劃是什麼對於翠這個平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12868.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12891.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
或者是對於其他新興的社群媒體平台我們還是會加強這些網路上的這些的巡邏啦就是搜尋這些相關的訊息是不是涉及這個炸雞的一個違規的狀況所以在你的檢舉平台當中我們現在一般使用我們檢舉平台除了說民眾的這個檢舉檢舉到165或者是告各檢查單位以外我們還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12892.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12917.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
我們的有ban by我們的網路巡邏的警察會主動去這些網路平台去做搜尋所以你也包含CHOI嗎包含那你可以告訴我目前你們在CHOI上有真的搜尋到類似的懷疑疑似是詐欺的我想這個正確數字我再跟我們的刑事局聯繫一下會後再給委員的資料會後給我們資料因為台灣人用CHOI證用很多好不好好那我想問一下蘇發布你們的APP裡面現在可以檢舉關於CHOI的部分嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12918.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12937.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
報告委員我們在去年這個打雜事法通過之後呢我們在去年年底的時候呢依照就是高風險跟一定規模有公布了四個業者平台業者然後六個平台然後裡面目前確實還沒有Trade那是因為Trade他沒有投放廣告這樣的一個業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12938.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12960.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
那但是我們在這個平台業者的這個部分的公布呢我們每兩個月大概都會review一次關注他的這個流量有沒有就是因為投放廣告的這個部分會影響到我們廣大的民眾所以呢如果Trade開始也有做這個廣告投放的這樣的一個業務之後呢我們在關注他的這個流量跟影響程度以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12961.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12981.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
也許也會可以把它列為這樣子的一個就是說必須要去納管的一個平台那這個部分我們會持續的關注跟研議好所以我跟副署長嘛副署長我跟您確定一下所以速發布的APP要以廣告為主如同我剛剛說它在翠上面它不是用發廣告的方法它是以貼文啦圖卡啦影片的訊息傳遞出去它不是我們傳統看到的下廣告的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12991.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13005.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
這個就不含你們速發部APP可以檢舉的對象嗎是的 因為我們在這個打炸釋法裡面有關於網路廣告平台業者有他一定的定義就是說他必須要是接受網路在平台上面接受網路的這樣的一個廣告的一個投放然後並且收取對價的這樣的一個方式才會是我們納管的一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13014.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13031.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
了解所以聽起來要嗎就是後續我們再討論你們怎麼調整這個看是要修法嗎我不是很確定但我時間有限所以看起來如果它是跟廣告有關但是剛剛警政署也說了你們會有更積極的不管是海巡或者是更積極的作為那我想一定要把新興社群媒體平台納入你們的對象好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13034.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13056.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
謝謝好這邊速發部請回那警政署請留步謝謝好接下來我們要講的詐欺這件事情其實我們現在看到比較大的困境喔在你們統計資料裡面113從111到11315歲以上未滿18歲的少年犯呢從在113年已經佔了三分之一那我想這個數字你一定非常清楚因為我們看圖表也非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13056.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13075.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
但其實我很擔心之所以有這麼多15歲到18歲的孩子變成這個所謂加害人也好或是相關的嫌疑犯一定是因為他們的生活環境不管是社區生活學校生活網路環境的生活讓孩子們變成這個所謂的嫌疑犯但我很好奇我可以先回到前一張圖表嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13076.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13092.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
十五到十八是你們現在有收集的數字但十五以下呢十五 說實話十五到十二在國中階段很可能就已經有一些案例了但我們目前沒有看到相關數字但那個也會是你們關懷的對象嗎應該是 十八歲以下都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13093.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13108.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
18歲以下都是好那我們會持續追蹤讓我們來往下看關於這群孩子他們現在最大的困境就是我們看到你們有一個預防兒童及少年犯罪方案14到117你們列了這麼多這麼多我就不再贅述了下一張好可是我們看到從 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13111.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13131.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
這個執行方案裡面對於各個部會都有要求各自應該要去做哪些事情確實這麼大的事情它需要跨部會的合作可是我們看到很多預防措施跟執行措施是落在內政部警政署有這麼多這麼多工作我們跟你們所知你們告訴我們說你們截至目前為止先將你們做了很多外講做了很多宣傳然後預計辦50集場對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13136.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13151.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
對的那你們自己之所以會規劃外講跟宣傳的原因是為什麼為什麼你們認為這樣的活動就可以促成所謂的15到18或者是18歲以下的兒少不要進入這個犯罪的可能你們想像的原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13151.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13165.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
我想就是一個也是就是一個宣導的一個讓讓全民都能夠了解這些兒少的一個犯罪的一個狀況那剛剛委員有提了因為這個是一個中長期的計劃包括牽涉在各部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13166.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13190.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
各部位 那我們也在行政委開過多次的這樣會議也有設定這一些的工作的項目跟定了目標值那我們根據這些內政部根據這些定的工作項目有關宣導的部分我們就是做規劃的這一方面的一個宣導讓這一些的青少年的一個犯罪的情形讓這個民眾可以去做了解 可以去做避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13190.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13216.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
好 我沒有說宣講跟外展活動沒有用但是我要講的是可能一個是我們從學校教育端來看可能孩子們在學校不會不知道這些事情可是如果我們的外展方案裡面還是很多的宣講還是侷限在 例如說你們給我們的資料裡面你們提到關於新興犯罪型態的認識啦少識法的轉向 兒童心理特質啦偏差行為啦 防毒啦 幫派啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13217.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13238.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這些他跟詐欺之間的關聯我必須跟您報告說實話我們在第一線收集到的聲音是很多孩子真的不知道我只不過是當個車手按個ATM有這麼嚴重嗎如果這個話今天是一個45歲50歲的大人說出來我們會責備他多一點但是如果今天是一個12歲15歲18歲的孩子講出這個話我們會認為他們因為社會生活經驗比較少 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13244.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13254.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
對法律的認知也比較少還在學習累積的階段所以他們講這個話雖然是不對的但是我們比較可以原諒他們但我要講的是孩子們剛剛講出那句話我只不過去按個ATM幫忙領個錢有這麼嚴重嗎這應該是現在很多年輕車手的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13264.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13288.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
就他們不知道說原來我做這個事情有這麼嚴重那當然我不是說全部的孩子都是這樣所以對我來說如果我們站在教育推廣並且我們真的希望收到實質的成效我們在規劃跟青少年的對話的活動當中他理當更多元更豐富更接近他們的需求更理解他們的困境這是我想要給你們的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13289.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13291.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
這個部分我想我們之後再花時間跟你們討論因為我認為更接近小孩的需求真的才能夠收到賀止的成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13306.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13323.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
好 接下來有一個昨天的記者會喔是我跟范雲委員還有很多團體一起所召開的主要就是因為最近有一個案件落在新北的才藝班有一個老師他在他的教室不法裝設監視器在監視器拍到的角落對孩子進行性侵跟性騷 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13324.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13354.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
而這個行為因為家長關心孩子的日常學習生活所以才被發現等到家長發現帶著孩子準備開始去報案的時候在警務單位第一關出現了一個難題我簡單說給您聽當家長想要去報案的時候他就打電話先到地方他所居住地的派出所問而且他講了說有發生這個事情派出所的員警非常好心就說好沒有問題你們可以過來我們可以受理等到孩子跟家長去到了那個派出所現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13355.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13379.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
他一聽事發地點他才問他事發地點他說事發地點在B地不在我們這裡所以他請那個家長再帶著孩子跑到B地過去的派出所去做筆錄B的派出所收了這個案子一聽不對這個案子很嚴重不是我是性侵案不是我們派出所可以處理的才又轉到副右隊也就是說我之前在跟警政署討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13380.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13385.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
其實第一線的基層遠景對於網路時代也好對於現在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13387.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13415.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
非常多元複雜的犯罪樣態的不理解其實我們不想增加基層員警的工作loading可是我們又很希望所有的被害人在第一時間他們可以找到一個對的窗口給予正確的協助而不要讓這一群被害人他們要反覆反覆的述說其實光是在第一關警政單位我當時就有提醒可以做哪些事情我不知道您這兩天有沒有看到這個新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13416.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13432.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
我有看到我覺得這個最主要關鍵就是要讓他減速的一個一個陳述的一個狀況那我也了解他的原理處理過程處理過程當中當然有一些管轄的問題但是案件是有受受理可是陳述的狀況是多次 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13433.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13451.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
關鍵最大就是要有一站式的服務的一個醫院的這個狀況那未來就是說這個一站式的服務的醫院是在衛生單位在各縣市政府來做一個規範那剛好這個案件的一個醫院沒有一站式所謂一站式就會只有警察 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13452.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13480.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
社工還有這些那個 沒關係我跟你說會有警政 警政 衛政 社政還有這些檢查檢查機關的 還有檢查機關就是法務部的檢查就是整個一站式在那邊一次做解決問題重點是在這一個所以未來能夠做精進的就是未來在這一站式的服務醫院裡面要加強這些醫院的一個設置那另外我們要加強的部分就是未來可能因為他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13481.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13506.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
峽區的地方沒有一站式的服務那是不是因為這種案件的話我們受理的話可能是不是要徵求這些被害人的家屬因為都是兒少的家屬的同意我們送到他們縣或峽區裡面的一站式的服務院來做處理這個就減少減速的一個狀況這邊您先留步我可不可以請司法院這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13508.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13536.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
因為可能在法務部的檢調單位會有更複雜但是確實是三個部會包含未證也會有關係還有您剛說的因為這個案子裡面它有驗傷所以它包含連醫院端但是我非常開心聽到您剛剛說我們最好可以提供一站式協助被害人這真的是理想中但是我現在真的非常非常好奇在您所屬的或者是司法院這邊在你們所屬的單位裡面你們現在有任何單位有 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13536.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13563.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
真的跨部會討論一站式服務提供的可能性嗎或者是如何在22個縣市當中我們不要浩高霧雨我們一步一步來可以怎麼樣做一步一步的規劃還是其實都還沒有開始討論但沒關係我們從這個案子讓我們看見今天沒有辦法請教育部跟衛福部來其實這個案子它其實是各部會必須要真的認真提供一站式但就我所知目前台灣並沒有這樣的服務對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13565.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13584.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
不管是司法院警政署或者是法務部現在有些有些醫院有的縣市政府是有一站式的服務喔例如比如講像台北市的有幾個醫院是有一站式服務新北好像也有可是因為這個案子就發生在新北啊那個分局的小區那個醫院沒有一站式的服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13586.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13601.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
就剛好那個醫院沒有一站式的服務比如講像那個俠嶼不用有比如像亞東醫院啊雙樓醫院啊還有或者是現在的慈濟醫院這個都是一站式服務剛好那個分局的俠嶼那個醫院不是一站式的服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13601.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13627.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
好 我聽懂了 我聽懂了意思就是說在現行你手上是有名單的所以我可以跟您要名單有名單那我之所以可以跟您要名單意思是說這個事情的發動起點是從警政署基層入境開始的這個發動的起點因為這個一站式的服務是衛生單位 醫院 衛福部所建構的主責建構的一站式那我們警政署也沒有規劃我們的同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13628.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13644.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
要用這樣的一個因為轄區因為太多了也沒有不見得要是也沒有規範他要送到哪個醫院都是都轄區的就近的醫院去做驗傷嘛那這個可能就是沒有這一戰事的這個狀況好未來假設回到這個個案我先請教您喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13645.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13666.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
如果他的轄區在B但是提供一站式服務的醫院在A區那我身為這個轄區的派出所員警我知道了這個案子不管他有沒有送去婦幼隊我可以直接不要收然後請他去那個醫院進行重新開始論述嗎還是我們應該更好的理想目標是假設假設同樣都在新北市同樣都在台北市這些這麼大的區域 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13668.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13687.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
應該有一個主責的單位去理解這件事情然後所有的基層員警都要受到相關的訓練當收到類似的案件尤其是針對18歲以下的孩子是受害人這麼敏感的案件的時候我們應該要直接啟動而不是以醫院為主不過這件事情不是你們所有就算了因為它確實需要跨部會的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13688.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13717.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
但是我要說我要再說一次我沒有要問責於這個個案的所有基層員警因為他們的工作loading真的已經很重了幫人民處理大大小小的事情我真的想像的是說假設基層員警是第一層接受到這個案子的報案的對象那他們必須要有一個sense腦袋要裡面警鈴啟動說他必須要回到我們地方政府裡面的一站室那會是哪裡那有沒有機會透過各個縣市政府跟所有中央部會合作去促成這個一站室 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13718.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13742.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
我個人認為是未來是要積極去多推動這一戰事的就是說可以整合所有這些相關受理的這個資源那我們希望就是因為這個組織當然不是在內政部門那這個部門可是不是在衛政的單位來做來做這個推動有的是我們是散落在各地方政府的一個相關的一個衛政單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13743.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13759.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
但是在這之前一戰事當然是最美好的理想而且他為了這個理想我們還得做很多的配套但是在這之前我還是要拜託警政署這邊真的要協助基層員警在這件事情上還是要建立相關的認知跟能力除了是可以確保他們的工作不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13760.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13778.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
做白宮其實像前面兩個員警搞不好都做了白宮對不對但是站在被害人的立場我們更希望協助他們那這裡面我要再一次強調有內政部警政署有司法院有法務部衛福部跟教育部他確實需要大家一起來努力好不好好謝謝那基層員警的部分我們一起加油好謝謝謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝洪夢凱委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13790.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13816.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢 訊號結束委員執行時要求提供相關資料或已書面答覆者 請相關機關緊述送交個別委員及本會委員鍾惠雄 翁曉琳 林倩琦 陳發慧 許欣盈所提書面執行均列入紀錄 刊登報告並請相關機關已書面答覆 本次會議到此結束 現在散會 謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13821.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13822.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
在哪有這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13837.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13854.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
你們的檢察官現在怎麼回事?現在發生什麼事情?剛剛家長跟他說,你今天來這個社工,這裡是社工,他們有個案子的社工,他們有個案子的社工,他們有個案子的社工,他們有個案子的社工,他們有個案子的社工,他們有個案子的社工,他們有個案子的社工 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13859.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13860.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
這個不難吃 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13877.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13877.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
剪刀石頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13898.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13905.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
我們明明有法規但是因為法規的審判因為警察就來抓我們就來抓我們就不太適合對所以你還要不要跟我們聊聊天因為我們有法規的審 |