| IVOD_ID |
166503 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166503 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
22 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-17T12:31:17+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-17T12:42:27+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:10 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd0f8c564bb75a2ce2a212f972bfaabac2cab7014e9f0b2746256f6ed70b2e814a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王鴻薇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:31:17 - 12:42:27 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第22 次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、國防部部長顧立雄報告「台海與周邊潛在軍事衝突熱點情勢分析與國軍戰備應變整備情形」，並備質詢。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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謝謝主席喔 首先感謝我們國防委員會剛才做的兩個決議喔那就針對現在有爭議性的那包含我們這個炸藥的相關的國防部的採購喔有兩個決議必須要符合相關的法規而且對於相關的程序跟價格也應該要做一些限制好 那我想首先請那個蔡局長請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
35.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
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| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好 局長好 局長我想請教一下國安局那如果對外採購如果是屬於具有這個敏感性或者是資安國安疑慮的標案或者是涉及國家安全採購的標案請問一下 像這樣的標案你們會不會標給資本額只有10萬元的公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
65.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
79.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
假如是比較機敏的標案當然我們有我們相關的發標跟發包跟那個招標的程序跟資格對不對那像這樣的有涉及國安資安的標案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
80.995 |
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| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
會不會給一家就是他事實上是可能有人頭他就可能是一直不停的不停的轉一個人開了好幾家公司然後這裡面他所謂的專業人員是用工讀生請問國安局會不會就是有國安這樣規格的標案會標給這樣的公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
104.088 |
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133.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
就管局這邊當然 就像剛剛跟委員說明的啦我們一定的一個作業的程序 但國防部這邊他的程序什麼那如果有這樣子的 就資本額很低 只有10萬塊但是可以標到有關資安相關的電腦相關維護設備或者是他有曾經被告過詐欺或者是他其實主業是茶行然後他們可能只有兩個人 其中還有工讀生 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
134.389 |
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| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
像這樣子的一個涉及國安資安的標案如果是這樣的程序發包局長請問一下這樣有沒有國安疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
145.698 |
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160.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
對 一般 我想我的理解我剛有跟委員說明因為我不知道國防部的法規規範是什麼那一般來講 第一個是剛才部長講好多次了第一個部分當然是法規面那第二個是在個案的標案裡面有沒有一些相關的條件像這樣子 像現在的狀況這是有一個具體的案例具體案例 它就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
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標給了一家資本額10萬塊這是不真的事實然後媒體也訪問到這家公司的負責人他主要是做茶葉那他說他是資訊管理系數德科技的資訊管理系那他說有人忙不過來就是另外一位他是用公讀生的方式然後另外他講到說他人沒有去他就標到了我要確定一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
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像這樣子的狀況他有沒有國安的疑慮因為我們一直都很擔心我們被滲透對不對那如果有一個有心人士或者是境外敵對勢力他看到我們的標案這麼簡單他要成立一家資本額10萬塊的公司太容易了 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
217.367 |
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236.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
他要找一個這個有資管背景資管科系畢業的人他兩個都不只他20個都可以他就可以來標國防部的這樣子具有機敏性跟資安的標案有沒有國安餘力 我已經問了好多次 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
236.724 |
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| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
因為委員講的是一個非常特定的一個個案的標案那我就問這個個案會不會有國安疑慮那因為我對這個個案我比較不瞭解你就不敢講你也不敢講說他沒有國安疑慮你也不敢講他有國安疑慮好時間暫停一下我們請那個顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
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| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
部長你可以看到剛才局長非常辛苦他也不能打臉你他也不敢幫你背書那我要講的就是最近我們所陸續爆發出來的國防部的採購他的漏洞非常非常多他的門檻極為寬鬆而且你們沒有經過相關的資格的要求跟徵訊一個剛才講的今天討論了很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
287.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
289.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我剛才說這絕對是國安漏洞任何一個人他只要來標這個國防部電腦維護你們還天天密件機密件他通通可以看光光好再來一個這個是我前一陣子所提出來的這個也是一個很確定的一家風液公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
309.356 |
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| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個蜂蜜公司他事實上在中科院已經把他列入為黑名單了是中科院已經確定列入黑名單然後檢調在今年起訴他以所謂的他有息產地問題有詐欺的問題但是呢在國防部繼續的把案子標給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
333.069 |
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| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
所以我要講的是一個這個查行我之前提到的他已經被很多包含法務部去告包含大學去告包含他去告立法院他也敗訴那另外這個風義公司呢他是直接被中科院列黑名單他也已經被檢調起訴的案子你們繼續標給他所以部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
357.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
370.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這些案子整個下來 我知道你是律師 你剛才回答賴思寶委員你是用律師的身份 你很會鑽這個法律漏洞但是我請問一下 我們連續這些標案的問題你認為國防部在整個的 在未來對外採購這些標案需不需要做檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
380.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
407.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
柯文委員報告您剛講的有關那個紅樟茶葉的這個維護合約我們在這個廠商派出前我們就完成了人員的安全查核那另外在這個維護的期間都有專責人員陪同施作那我們在驗收的時候也會有採購單位依規定再次實施系統的檢核你們怎麼查核 他人都沒到耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
408.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
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| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
沒有資安餘領 您講的人沒有到那是指招標那因為這個是屬於小額的採購的服務合約所以他依照採購法的49條本來就可以用郵寄來投標那我剛剛講的是他在履約的階段他得標之後我們要做人員查核 安全的查核那你知道他有被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
428.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
450.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們有專責人員來陪同然後我們要檢核那你有知道我提出來的他被那個有被地檢署告有被大學告知道嗎那另外這個我想已經說明這個是軍威公司你又回避問題了軍威公司你講的是軍威公司他從來沒有參與本部跟所屬單位的標案這個負責人有被告啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
453.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
458.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
對 那這個負責人的被告的結果這個公司的停權是由軍威公司被停權那是在108年的5月24號到111年的5月23日跟我們現在講的鴻章茶行它的得標是在111年的11月沒有關聯 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
475.293 |
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494.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以這全部都這兩個人耶他的重點就是他被告完了之後再用另外一個人頭再去成立一家公司這個負責人他也講說哇現在這麼多爭議我們再去成立一家公司就好啦對他自己都承認了好來那我剛才講的豐益公司呢豐益公司他已經被起訴你們仍然去讓他參與標案而且標給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
499.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
517.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
就這個部分我們現在已經在我們的這個相關的標案裡面說明就是說他一旦被中科院因為這個相關的國安法的一些規定比如說他去那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
518.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
535.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
大陸的地區這樣子的一個問題然後被中間列入黑名單的時候我們把它列入我們把它列入這個不能夠投沒有具有投標的一個資格我們現在已經把它列入了 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
536.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
554.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
現在才列入但是中科院去年就把它列入了我們原來是在這個履約的階段來那個那現在進一步把它列入這一個不能夠來進行投票你們這些標案你承不承認裡面有漏洞甚至可能會有國安疑慮呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
555.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
564.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我想每一個個案的狀況不同我們每一個個案都會來不斷的檢討那關於火藥原物料的部分我已經說明的相當清楚我們用合約來進行控管所以我第一時間在這個您剛講的資訊的服務的部分我們也有相關的規範那風力公司的這個部分呢我們原來是在履約的階段來加以控管那現在進一步從招標的資格也加以控管 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
581.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
610.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
你覺得你們是不是應該依照工程會的相關的採購的這個辦法去執行呢這個在我前兩天的諮詢我也特別提出來剛才那個賴思寶委員也提出來投標廠商資格跟特殊及巨額採購認定標準要求具有時機具有一定的人力具有一定的財力這些至少要有這些相關的資格標準你們國防部應不應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
612.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
627.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
來比較辦理不然的話你們的門檻是太寬鬆嗎我們都會根據合約的一個性質本身來律定這個投票商的資格那至於你講的高額的部分這個是不是請裁割室來沒關係 我跟你講不覺得關係不要再說明了因為特定資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
628.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
651.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
不用 你時間的關係 你用書面好了 因為你們講的都一樣對 我覺得我們也不想聽你們像錄音帶一樣如果這樣子死不認錯 明明都已經出現這些漏洞我們都一再的去提醒 你們還不做老師說 這些案件不是最後 未來一定會有那我也要拜託國安局 也跟國防部溝通啊這個絕對有國安疑慮啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
654.981 |
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670.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
怎麼可能是這樣子的一個狀況十萬塊錢公司請工讀生只有兩個人那請問一下都如入無人之境我們還在那邊講什麼反滲透法 國安法那你們自己本身就是一個大漏洞以上好 謝謝 |