| IVOD_ID |
166496 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166496 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
22 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-17T12:07:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-17T12:19:15+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:16 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a6d7659fd659acd02031d52443ae4ab4212f972bfaabac2cab7014e9f0b27462eebc5b1f2304e56a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
賴士葆 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:07:59 - 12:19:15 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第22 次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、國防部部長顧立雄報告「台海與周邊潛在軍事衝突熱點情勢分析與國軍戰備應變整備情形」，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國安部的顧部長以及國安局的蔡局長一起好不好請顧部長 蔡局長兩位長官好今天我想很多人注意到我們的國安部也提出來了說去中心化 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
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到底是什麼意思你說過去一個演習也用過過去來講我們看到是總部軍團部隊那現在怎麼樣是任何一個部隊都可以實施第一級是不是我們沒有這麼說我們是防衛作戰 |
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防衛作戰隊啊 這個過去來講從你上年的國防部長就講過啊第一級只要進入我們的領空進入領海就第一級啊我們會有對應變的一些各項的狀況我們做應變的處置的一些相關的規定沒有沒有 我想問你第一級可以不可以由你的區域中心化來執行 可不可以我想我們都是在進行自衛 |
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我知道 自衛的第一級嘛自衛的第一級所以我們對於相關的狀況會有一些律定如何在合乎交戰規則的情況下進行合法的自衛因為你現在講這個去中心化外面的人一般的了解大家的了解就是去中心化就是沒有最高指揮了這個也不是統帥下令了也不是國防部長下令了一個部隊就可以開槍了是這個意思嗎 |
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跟委員報告齁 在這個報告裡面已經有說明了是落敵 突然發起攻擊對啊 突然發起啊大陸突然發起我們的 就我們的什麼單位你說一個連長可以嗎 還是一個一個兵就可以了 還是總算有個層級吧 |
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對 所以他亂發起這樣的一個軍事攻擊我們當然就可以合法行使自衛權那他是誰 他是誰任何一個層級碰到軍事的攻擊任何一個層級就是不管他的位階多高乃至於這個就到基層的一個兵也可以 是不是這個意思但是跟委員強調這一段主要是在說明 |
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剛剛我已經有回覆馬委員的問題了就是說這一段主要在強調我們承受了這一個中國的第一級之後我們如果發生最壞的這樣子的一個情況之下我們必須要根據 |
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每一個部隊所授予的這個任務在合乎交戰規則的情況之下來遂行他的任務那他這個在這種我這樣問你啦 比較因為我時間有限這個沒辦法聽你講得唱片大論我不要聽得很清楚這樣講好了 過去已經發生過了他的無人機上到我們的金馬的上空要不要打下來 |
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我們律定就是說就這種無人機如果它進入我們的領空範圍之內我們是可以合法的把它進行對 不要你下令 就是那個部隊這個是因為就面對這樣的出難的一個狀況它要實施應對嘛就它就可以了 對不對你不怕擦槍著火它是無人機啊它是無人機 那其他的飛機呢 |
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206.719 |
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225.599 |
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其他有人危機那就要看他有沒有對我們實施一個攻擊的好 我請教那個蔡局長啊其他國家有沒有這樣子部隊指揮變成區中心化有沒有這次的俄烏戰場確實這是一個新的議題那歐洲國家有不少的討論 |
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226.801 |
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246.974 |
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是不是都這樣做其他國家都這樣做美國這樣做嗎沒有 討論的場景大概是在於說假如你的中央化的中心化的一個指揮管制體系出現問題的話怎麼樣有一個比較非中央化的運作機制我就請問你美方對於這樣子區域中心化的做法是什麼有 有在討論 有這樣的討論有沒有實施啦 討論討論因為這是一個在歐戰場上發現的一個新的好那第二個問題我請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
256.793 |
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280.589 |
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這個看到中國大陸跟日本因為這個高市長苗的言論啦他的敵意一直升高在這個看到發生過J15火控雷達照射日本的F15日本當然說這是他的偵察任務中共是說這個我在訓練的時候你來指導啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
283.336 |
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306.921 |
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來來來先請教局長你們得到的資訊是哪一個比較對啊日本講的對還是老共講的對啊就那個現場的狀況來講我們的理解是共機因為已經在日本周邊的空域活動所以日本他當然有派出他的戰鬥機上去所以日本已經在活動了老共已經在活動了 |
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日本闖進去的是這個意思不是 因為他已經活動範圍已經有點靠近到日本周邊的空域所以日本有戰鬥機起來但是老共的那個相關的雷達的搜索去鎖定到日本的戰機那日方覺得那是我就問你嘛是誰先啟動的嘛是他在那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
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訓練在前還是日本的飛機先飛當然是中共的先嘛所以你這兩個講起來的話就變成老共講的比較準嘛也沒有啦是不是這個意思 你剛剛就這個意思啊沒有沒有 我也要看一下日方的一些說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
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怎麼美國對這個態度都點點沒有沒有我剛也跟那個陳俊宇委員在做說明的是12月的6號發生了這個事件之後美國在12月8號兩天之後馬上跟日本啟動了美國航母編隊的軍事演訓來 那個請教顧部長啊今天如果老共的飛機來了我們F什麼上來了然後他也這樣子火控雷達照我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
372.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
393.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我們可不可以視為他突然要我們就是這個去中心化直接反擊可不可以我想如果他有對我們進行鎖定的話我們就要判斷他的一個意圖要不要直接開火如果他鎖定我們而且有一個攻擊的一個傾向我們當然可以合法的行使自衛權 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
395.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
412.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個要 他講得很清楚因為委員講的是鎖定對啊 鎖定他這個火控雷達照射就鎖定我們已經這個整個飛機上的警報器都已經響了已經是被他鎖定了他要進行意圖要進行攻擊日本為什麼被鎖定日本都沒有去打他 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
413.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
425.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這個我想對於這樣子的一個判斷那就是日本要在當下要去判斷他到底對於他的雷達的這樣的一個造色是不是已經造成一種鎖定要進行攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
427.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
445.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那我再請教國安局長這個高市長苗現在他的輿論當然沒有說回去台灣有事的事情但是他特別又澄清說日本要採取集體自衛權對象相當優先他就提到美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
446.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
474.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
有沒有報告台灣我想那個高市首相他在強調的是集體自衛權的行使必須要同盟國家之間才能啟動集體自衛權所以台灣沒有啊現在跟日本簽訂同盟條約的確實是美國但是在美日同盟的架構之下他們可能共同應處各種不同的事態那這個部分高市首相在前面的說明有提到台灣要是有事的話是涉及到危及存亡事態 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
474.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
488.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那這個高市的講法是不是間接的就要把他的話收回去一半沒有沒有日本後來內閣有對這方面做說明好那個 蔡局長請回最後一個問題我請教那個顧部長這個剛才你又回答幾個委員的題目你在禮拜一的時候我有諮詢過相當的題目你就是 你一直強調只要他能夠交貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
502.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
510.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
就可以了 管他背景是什麼 公司名稱什麼都不要管其實那一句話 你那一句話 黎巴宜那一句話對你是很傷的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
512.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
534.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
對你是很傷的因為我們都知道這不是軍事採購特別軍事採購政府採購法就明明規定有積極的資格有財務能力啊資本額下限最近一年的財報都要看著啊還有他過去要有一年內限 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
535.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
554.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
新年一定年限內完成類似的採購法要承認一定的金額以上這都是政府採購法以及實績者明明白白講的不是只有你講說他只要能交貨只要能交貨 不是這樣喔我們的政府採購法訂得這麼清楚而且你這個錢這個這個服賣這個錢是5.9億 將近6億這麼大的一筆金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
563.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
578.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
清清楚楚有積極資格還有消極資格那個消極資格某種程度就對於你那個那個大使就是一個要排除掉了他不能夠有判刑的紀錄都裡面寫得很清楚啊政府採購法規政府採購時事細則訂了這麼清楚積極資格跟消極資格部長啊你前天講那個話老實講你是賭字喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
588.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
593.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
你是賭池喔 這個你怎麼可以把這個ignore呢怎麼把他就視而不見 只要他交貨 那就好了你沒想過說那180天以後他如果沒有辦法交怎麼辦 我們就再也不要了這個且不要講 你是律師出身的 你都不守法 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
609.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
619.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你們要看這個 積極資格 要看財務啊而且要看過他以前做過的一些案件都要看啊 怎麼可以不看呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
621.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
648.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
跟委員報告我想我已經說明得很清楚了我們過去20年來都是採同樣的一個資格這是先說明我們都一律公開招標也合乎相關政府採購好的相關的規定那至於您講的這些有關巨額的這個部分呢它本來就是得並不是因那對於我們相關的這些資格的一個認定我們過去以來都因為就火藥原物料的這個取得 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
648.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
652.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我們認為他只要取得輸出許可證明我再講一句話就好了這是必要喔必要必要這是必要這是required這不是說可以讓你得是必要這個我請採購事主沒有時間的關係這個有關委員所講的是特定資格主任時間的關係如果你們講的跟昨天跟時候一樣那請提供書面就好我們請回應我們委員的質詢好 |