| IVOD_ID |
16644 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16644 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-05T08:30:32+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-05T12:34:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:03:28 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc13160f04860f8ef7ef3840653eac67e314bfadd538e1bbbf28a5b05ffb3aba595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【5月5日及7日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:32 - 12:34:00 |
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1842.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
報告委員會初席委員9人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會好我們現在開始開會先進行報告事項宣讀上次會議意思錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1843.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1865.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一屆第三會期司法及法治委員會第十四次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百二十四年五月一日星期四上午九十六分至十十七分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員黃國昌委員等十人列席委員鄭正前委員等二人列席官員衛道主席莊昭宇及委員瑞雄 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1866.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1880.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
報告事項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定決定二 邀請立法院秘書長 議事處處長 法治局局長列席就防止立法院成為國安破口避免共諜滲透 機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件之防止措施進行專題報告並被質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1882.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1908.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
本次會議由委員王逸川等三人提出質詢委員審發會陳培瑜提出書面質詢決定一 發言完畢二 委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關 金蘇 松膠個別委員及本會通過臨時提案以上宣讀完畢好 那我們首先介紹在場委員王逸川委員接著我們介紹到場官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1911.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1937.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
今天總統府的跟國安會總統府秘書長跟國安會秘書長有請聯絡人來表達說他們拒絕到會那接著我們介紹司法院因為副秘書長請假所以有刑事廳理聽長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1940.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1954.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
法務部正部長 正名簽部長法務部調查局 陳百利局長廉政署署長 封城署長國安局副局長 黃明昭副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1959.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1986.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
區議會及介紹的列席代表請參閱名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報紀錄本次會議有排定星期一、三兩天為一次會今天邀請總統府秘書長、國安會秘書長等機關率所屬相關單位就近期連環爆發總統府國安會議外交部遭共諜滲透及忠誠安全查核不足導致國家機密資料外洩提出檢討報告及相關防護 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1988.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1992.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
防治措施之預算執行請醒並進行專題報告被質詢現在先進行報告 每會發言時間三分鐘我們請法務部正部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2018.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2018.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2030.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2054.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 早安那今天奉邀列席貴賓會就近期連環爆發總統府 國安會 外交部等遭共諜滲透及中層安全查核不足導致國家居民外洩提出檢討報告及相關防治措施的預算執行進行代表本部列席報並被執行自報告如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2055.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2075.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那境外敵對勢力對我國滲透及清搜的手段區域精緻化及全面化以從傳統間諜活動擴展至高科技產業、學術機構、政府機關及地方基層組織系統性收集我國政、軍、經及科技機密近來發生公職人員遭受滲透 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2076.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2096.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
提供公務機密情質基因檢查機關偵辦及羈押及刑事案件顯示當時滲透手段隱密性高滲透對象不分層級領域面對這種非傳統複合型的國家安全威脅需精進偵查能量建構更具前瞻性以任性的國防防線面對當前危機 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2097.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2116.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那本部的立場跟作為是強化公務人員特殊的查核機制本部調查負責涉及國家安全及重大利益公務人員特殊查核並由主管機關全面檢討及修正相關辦法所定義的事項及平次防制高風險領域的公務員遭受境外敵對式吸收利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2117.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2134.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
2.落實機密資訊保管及存取控制,針對公共機密、國家機密等隱秘密證的資訊,各機關依照去落實分級保密制度,並強化涉密人員對法令的認知遵循,預防因疏忽濫用而滲透,造成洩密風險。3.落實跨機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2137.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2144.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
案件偵辦平台 本部調查局整合情緒線所預先查核高風險對象檢查機關以案件偵辦過程就個案內建構聯繫平台以調查機關 情報機關橫向溝通連結發揮最高偵辦效用是精進檢調偵辦人員的專業智能 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2156.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2174.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那衛視檢調機關處理迅速妥適本部司法官學院就新進司法官學院辦理國安職權的一個信念以提升偵辦能量專業五推動法治的完備本部前面檢視現行國安法治就擴大委員所提交國安法修長深入研歷 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2176.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2194.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
六 依法嚴辦國安滲透案件 國安案件目前這五年來的定罪達八十一person 本部手指檢到機關面對當前局勢積極 對詳細修正今日調查 釐清事實 勿枉勿重 相當受嚴嚴辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2196.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2223.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
公職人員對國家中層伺服公職基本的信念及德性要求對招聖托配合洩漏機密人員嚴重危害國家利益減掉計劃採取堅定而嚴正的偵查作為以受嚇阻之效以上報告敬請主席的各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請司法院理聽長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2232.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2238.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
主席 各位委員 各位縣長 大家早安今天本院奉邀 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2240.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2267.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
列席貴委員會有關於近期連環爆發總統府國安會還有外交部遭共諜滲透及忠誠安全差額不足導致國家機密資料外洩提供檢討報告及相關防治措施的預算執行情形請代表本院列席報告之報告如下進行指教那有關於各法院111年到113年辦理違反國家國安法國家機密保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2268.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2293.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
以及反滲透法等等的案件終結情形以及法院對涉及國家安全的審理跟機敏資料的保管卷中的閱覽所採取的保密措施及限制也在前次的會議奉邀列席時已經報告報告說明在案我們再分析了一下110年到113年官各法院辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2295.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2318.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
資訊保護的部分我們都加了一個分析分析相關統計數據在地院的話是有23件定罪率是64%高院刑事第一審終結案件有18件定罪率是62%刑事第二審終結案件是17件定罪率是64%最高法院的終結率有23件那有罪佔有罪比例的是79%那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2321.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2336.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我們在針對本院就聖祕人員及所屬機關人員出入大陸地區跟港澳地區做的一些管制跟查的作業包括聖祕人員的部分我們會依照國安機密保護法的部分進行促進管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2338.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2352.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
並在他們回來之後那我們要求他進行通報那另外進出我們所屬機關進出大陸地區港澳地區我們在依照相關規定來辦理由於大陸地區我們必須事先經過核准之後才可以進去大陸地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2354.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2377.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
另外有關於在職訓練的部分我們從109年開始就進行國家安全研習會的相關的一些研習我們今年又增加了兩梯次的國家安全相關的研習我們來增強把關的專業辦案能力另外有關於治安保護的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2378.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2399.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們在採購的契約有限定注點廠商不得有大陸籍人士也不得提供使用大陸廠牌的資通訊產品另外相關機敏資料我們會依照機敏資料在系統中的屬性做不同的轉置措施例如在裁判書的部分我們會有自動遮蔽相關機敏資料人權相關功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2402.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2418.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
另外對未來我們對個人電腦的登錄我們採取信任制度必須用手機連結之後才能進入避免資料的外洩另外我們會辦理兩次的資安通訊的一些教育訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2420.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2430.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
同仁的資安防護措施 那我們相關質詢相關資安的預算執行率大概都是99.79%或94.74%這是聯繫112年跟130年部分那以上報告 敬請各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2441.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2466.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
介紹到場的委員 黃國昌委員 林倩琦委員請問各位 各位委員就上次的會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有的話議事錄確定那請問吼調查局連政署跟國安局有沒有需要做口頭報告沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2468.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2478.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
好 那機關代表報告完畢 相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘 得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘 並不再延長我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2493.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2501.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
謝謝主席,麻煩有請司法院刑事廳廳長、法務部部長、外交部政風處處長以及人事行政總署培訓考用處處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2518.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2535.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
各位好,時間的關係不易問候今天召委排了這個有關於府院黨綠色共諜橫行的專案報告其中有幾件事情是今天的報告要特別來加以檢討的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2536.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2565.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那當然很遺憾不管是總統府還是國安會兩個涉案最深的單位完全沒有派任何人來列席這個司法法治委員會我相信大家看在眼裡心中都有一定的評價但我不要浪費時間直接往下講先請教一下法務部法務部在今天提出來的書面報告第三頁的最下面說會向上溯源研辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2566.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2589.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
目前針對橫跨府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子向上溯源嚴辦辦到什麼地方了向上溯源嚴辦是你在書面報告寫的內容那就不要講空話這個案子現在向上溯源嚴辦辦到什麼地方了這個是屬於通案的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2591.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2615.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
一個態度我想國安的這些違反國安的犯罪這部分對我們這些的國家安全影響很大但是現在都在個案正辦中那我們要求就是說檢察機關在辦理國安案件的話一定要向上搜研向下刨根那這個個案掌握到多少這部分我沒辦法干涉介入跟指導沒有關係啦第一個啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2616.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2641.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
部長講的是向上溯源嚴辦這是法務部基本的立場至於個案是不是有向上溯源嚴辦的這件事情部長管不到基本上的立場就是這個樣子那第二個部分是在這個府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子裡面其中一個關鍵人物是黃曲榮就黃曲榮的部分目前的偵辦是以為中國發展組織在偵辦還是單純用洩密在偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2647.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2670.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這部分這個個案我沒辦法去回答這個問題OK好那第二個部分就吳尚宇的部分是為中共發展組織在偵辦還是單純洩密在偵辦這部分還是個案我們這個檢察官在偵辦中何仁傑的部分呢一樣嘛你知不知道這個案子台北地檢署總共發了幾次新聞稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2673.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2694.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
知不知道這個我不清楚你不清楚嘛從這個案子從一開始到現在只有一次何仁傑抗告駁回的時候有發新聞稿其他的部分從來沒有發新聞稿一句話的解釋都沒有那針對何仁傑的部分所發的新聞稿倒是把罪名都寫出來了只有洩密啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2695.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2718.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
沒有為中共發展組織但今天部長在這邊講的話我希望偵辦的檢察官我希望偵辦的檢察官要聽進去如果基本上面部裡面的政策立場是要向上溯源嚴辦就不要搞拒建法什麼叫搞拒建法為中共發展組織不敢辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2720.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2741.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
因為涉及的人太多了因為涉及的人太多了那單純拒見了以後辦洩密那是不是有這樣的狀況我們接下來按照整個個案偵辦的進度等到起訴了以後我們進一步來針對具體的內容來加以檢驗但我上次提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2741.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2765.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
何仁杰他基本上是一個涉及國家安全或重大利益的公務人員上一次外交部部長林佳龍承認外交部沒有依法辦理特殊查核那個時候林佳龍說他馬上會回去處理這個是在4月21號的事情那現在外交部處理的進度是什麼可不可以給大家說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2771.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2772.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
林佳龍說那天就要有結果嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2774.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2802.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
跟委員報告就是那個和人節的部分到107年到我們外交部任職的時候他是只有進行一般的安全查核這個上次講過了那目前的話如果說部裡面現在的同仁的話我們還是要按照行政院跟考試院定的特殊查核辦法他裡面有規範就是現在有哪些人必須要查核和人節要不要做特殊安全查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2804.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2831.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
呃 如果如果不要說如果我4月20幾號就問過的問題了林佳龍也說要回去處理本來說那個禮拜要給大家答案我等了半天等不到外交部的說明那我就很懷疑林佳龍那時候在備詢的時候是欽差公共欸所以我今天才特別提出來嘛不要浪費時間針對問題回答啦現在如果依照現在的規定的話目前目前如果是用呃 聘用人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2832.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2852.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
擔任所謂的秘書的話目前的話還是沒有辦法進行特殊查核你的意思是說何仁杰依照辦法本來就不用辦特殊安全查核嗎他一開始的時候進入國安會的時候為什麼要做特殊安全查核為什麼轉到外交部的時候不用做特殊安全查核因為喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2852.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2878.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
今天你在這邊的說明跟那天林佳龍的說明完全是矛盾的那天林佳龍承認說他應該要辦特殊安全查核但今天外交部似乎改口說他是聘用所以不用辦特殊安全查核能夠接觸到這麼機敏的部長室裡面機密傳真的人竟然不用辦特殊安全查核這不是一件很離譜的事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2879.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2908.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
再跟委員報告一下就是依照當時和人節107年進到外交部的時候外交部當時候是用所謂的聘用人員來禁用他那當時候列在特殊查核的一覽表的名單就沒有把它列進去所以當時候是不用那如果是現在的話因為行政院已經有公開宣示了以後處理比較機敏的業務的話我問比較核心關鍵的問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2909.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2935.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
哪些人應該辦特殊安全查核是由誰決定的是不是行政機關決定的行政機關現在完全公務人員任用法授權給行政機關去做決定嘛那行政機關怎麼會做一個這麼荒謬的決定明明可以接觸機敏資訊的因為他是部長帶來的人他是機要然後就可以不用辦特殊安全查核這不是國家安全的重大漏洞嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2936.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2948.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這個部分以後我們會來補強對啊 等到出了事了以後現在才說以後要補強你現在的說明是什麼責任就不用追究了嘛當初沒有辦特殊安全查核剛剛好而已嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2950.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2978.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
今天外交部的說明的立場不就是這個樣子嗎但大家看不下去啊立法者授權給你們行政機關決定哪些人要做特殊安全查核結果因為是部長帶去的寵臣所以就可以不用做要不要做也是你們決定的啊該做沒有做該規範沒有規範出現了國家安全的重大漏洞這件事情不需要有人負責嗎這件事情不需要有人負責嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2980.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3001.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
誰要負責任?支吾昭縣要負責任嗎?人躲起來啦連來都不敢來啊誰要負責任?立法者都充分授權給你們啦授權給你們的結果是什麼?善慢善慢該做沒有做事情就這麼簡單來人種外交部啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3010.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3031.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
今天翻共啊林佳龍當初是說應該做沒有做啊結果到今天真相大白啊按照外交部自己提報的人連做都不用做好來第二個吳尚宇從副總統時期就任用了到總統時期還是任用他要不要做特殊安全查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3032.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3054.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
據瞭解那個吳尚宇也是聘用人員那跟委員報告所以吳尚宇是聘用人員也不用做特殊安全查核是這樣嗎因為特查辦法如果是特查辦法的話是任用法的授權命令那不是依照任用法禁用的人員目前不在於那個辦法的涵蓋範圍之內所以呢這個法規上面的問題授權給你們法規上面的問題什麼時候發生的因為這很離譜嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3059.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3085.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
一般現在 我最近接到一堆投訴啊公務人員說 辦他們的查核的時候辦得把他們當賊一樣 辦得非常緊結果 跟民進黨這些大官出入重要地方的 真正是機要真正可以接觸機敏資訊的通通都沒有辦所以今天才會搞出這個洞出來啊才會搞出這個洞出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3086.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3096.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我剛講得很清楚啦都是授權給你們行政機關做結果現在沒有做該辦沒有辦出了事沒有人要負責我們的政府不是要強化有關於國安案件的處理嗎怎麼會處理成這個樣子處理得哩哩喇喇讓人民看不下去再下一個來 請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3118.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3139.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我上次啊問了調查局局長一個關鍵的問題啊你剛說啊 偵辦當中的資訊啊檢察官不會洩漏啊 你們都不會知道那很奇怪啊為什麼吳尚宇的事情總統府會知道在拘提吳尚宇前一天總統府就把他解職了誰洩密 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3143.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3169.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
這個你們有依法會通報總統府嗎?上次電話局局長否認嘛說沒有通報總統府這個真漫無喪語的事情我是看報紙我才知道的你完全毫無所惜我毫無所惜北檢有沒有通報總統府這個不可能通報不可能通報所以我們現在總統府是通靈喔在發動G提前一天就知道要把無無喪語解除職務沒有人通報的話總統府怎麼知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3171.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3200.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
通靈嗎所以問題就來了嘛壓了兩個人以後要辦吳尚宇之前前一天總統府把他解除職務我非常納悶啊總統府怎麼知道吳尚宇要出事了結果在前一天把他解除職務身為偵辦過犯罪檢察官的法務部部長你不會覺得很奇怪嗎還是不用去查 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3201.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3226.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
這種事情不用查 不要查總統府怎麼會知道總統府不可能知道啊對嘛 所以我就問你嘛如果不知道的話怎麼會在發動GT前一天把他解除職務很巧 心有靈犀還是通靈作為一個曾經偵辦犯罪過的檢察官你不會覺得很奇怪嗎我是覺得超級奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3228.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3248.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
如果偵查當中的訊息沒有人通報怎麼會在前一天把他解除職務我們從法律面上面來講這種事情依法要通報總統府嗎要嗎這個沒有通報啊是不是有通報事實層面的問題現在我問的是法規範層面的問題依法要通報總統府嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3253.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3275.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
偵查中的個案本來就是 就是由檢察官來依法偵辦嘛對 所以依法要通報總統府嗎這個沒有通報的規定依照法律的規定 沒有通報的規定 不能通報嘛不能通報嘛 對吧但是但是什麼 現在又有但是了 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3277.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3298.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
到底有通報沒有通報所以到底有沒有通報這個沒有通報啊對啊所以我現在問題就來了嘛我們繞來繞去嘛現在出現了一個大謎團嘛法務部部長堅稱沒有通報我相信你沒通報因為你說你不知道嘛北檢有沒有通報北檢不可能會通報啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3299.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3321.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
你有去查嗎這個怎麼可能會通報呢你的意思是說你都不用去問啦北檢絕對不會通報現在問題還是沒解決嘛所以總統府是通靈還是心有離析他怎麼會知道要發動搜索前一天就把他給放了就把他給解除職務你不知道嘛你不知道答案是什麼嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3324.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3350.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
但是這個是不是一個值得追究的問題我認為這是一個值得追究的問題所以我今天公開告發請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的剛好前一天把他解除職務如果有人通報的話有沒有洩密罪的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3352.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3381.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
沒關係你繼續堅稱沒有人通報啦現在我問的全部都是法規範層面的問題喔如果有人通報有沒有洩密罪的問題有吧有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪這有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪就是不敢回答喔我那時候不敢回答這就依法認定嘛對啊所以有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪有還是沒有這個就依法認定對嘛所以我就說你不敢回答嘛來下一個司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3383.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3396.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我們目前司法院設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業目前我們都有對國安軍事專庭的人員有進行專業的訓練所以按照司法院的觀點現在設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3398.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3420.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我們認為我們在法官事務分配規則這部分有做專業跟久任的一些相關的規劃這個我了解你們都有做規劃白紙黑字大家都看到了現在我在問司法院的事情是按照你們自己設置了這個國安軍事專庭了以後到今天為止你們認為具體實施起來國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3421.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3441.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我們認為法官的專業程度應該是夠的應該是夠的嘛所以目前的國安軍事專庭足以處理有關於國家軍事安全的案件這個是司法院現在的立場嗎是 沒錯好 第二個司法院認為目前針對國安軍事專庭法官的判刑有沒有判刑過輕的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3443.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3468.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
這個部分我們在歷次的說明沒有判刑過輕的問題因為涉及到法定刑但是法律修正的問題所以目前判起來都相關我們把問題理清啦司法院認為依照現行法的規定沒有判刑過輕的問題那至於說要不要判得更重這是立法者的決定我這樣說是不是司法院的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3469.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3476.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我們認為我們是依在在法定行列上適當的量刑是所以嘛在現行法下面你認為沒有判刑過輕的問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3480.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3499.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
所以要不要提高刑度是立法者的問題嗎最後一個問題來請教部長部長我上次有請教過你就是說泄密給中國跟泄密給外國法定型應該要區別對待也就是泄密給中國要提高刑度這件事情我上次請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3500.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3529.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
你沒有表達意見有受廣納意見嗎是那我上一次在內政委員會問次長的時候次長說他個人的意見是贊成那目前從上次到現在法務部廣納各界社會意見了以後現在的決定是什麼贊不贊成洩密給中國的要提高法定刑剛剛你也聽到司法院怎麼講嘛他們認為喔司法院自己認為我沒有說司法院講的是對的啦社會上有很多批評嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3530.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3541.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
司法院認為說在現在的法定刑下法官量刑沒有問題那接下來是立法院要不要提高刑度的問題現在針對洩密給中國要提高刑罰這件事情法務部有立場了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3543.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3562.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這邊我認為還是廣大意見因為本來就是國家機密保護法第32條33條本來就是有加重的一個規定了嘛它是當然是委員有提到所以你現在你認為現在的規定是夠了是不是那是外國那個那夠不夠的話我們再跟社會看社會的一個意見好沒關係你們還要廣大社會的意見還要廣大多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3563.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3578.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
這個上次委員是講的是四月是四月份四月二十幾號的沒關係啊我現在就說你們要廣大多久因為啦對於你來講啊這可能是一個新的問題但對於民進黨政府來講這絕對不是新的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3581.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3603.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我2018年的時候就把這個問題搬到檯面上但是很奇怪民進黨政府從頭到尾反對從行政部門到立法部門從頭到尾反對到目前為止各個委員所提出來的國家安全法的修正草案你們在法務部的報告裡面說會強加的去研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3604.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3615.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
會研議了以後表示法務部的意見嗎書面報告是這樣寫的沒有錯吧好那你們看完了民進黨所有的委員所提的提案的時候有沒有認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3617.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3645.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
洩密給中國相較於洩密給外國應該要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有這個本來就是有加重處罰的規定啊我說國家安全法請你看國家安全法好不好你在書面報告裡面講的就是國家安全法嘛現在在內政委員會審議的也是國家安全法嘛針對國家安全法現在民進黨委員所提出來的提案有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的修正條文有還是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3646.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3673.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
還是不是很清楚那些條文還沒有細看這個是第二條第七條的是我知道啊沒有區分啊現在國家安全法第二條第三款第二款第三款都沒有區分啊泄密倒是沒有嘛不過國家安全法本來就是就這樣的一個泄密行為就有一個處罰所以請你針對問題回答嘛你們說你們要按照國家安全法各個委員所提出來的版本好好回去研議我相信你的話啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3674.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3700.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
所以我相信你研議過啦我相信提了什麼條文你很熟啊要不然法務部今天提出來的報告是欽差公共的喔針對民進黨委員所提出來的修正條文有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有目前是沒有啊目前沒有嘛那這樣問題就清楚了嘛勇敢講嘛怕什麼我具體跟部長講啊我提案的內容洩密給中國加重處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3702.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3719.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
這個是社會的期待這是人民的憤怒啊這是你們提的這一拖拉鼓報告所在講問題的核心啊碰都不敢碰好 謝謝黃委員那我們請林倩祺委員先代理主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3739.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3758.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我們麻煩部長還有第二具局長局長部長兩位早安我想我今天問的東西我已經公開的講好幾天了所以這絕對不會是突襲兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3761.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3781.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
我想日前在調查局還有宜蘭地檢署在搜索宜蘭縣黨部的時候他發生一個狀況就是他把非本案應該扣押的東西帶回了我想部長知道這件事嗎?局長知道這件事嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3782.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3798.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我都知道嘛對不對好那我來跟各位報告第一個宜蘭地檢署在我當天晚上啊跟兩位報告我當天晚上電話接接不完啦因為他們要去要回這些資料因為隔天已經是最後一天了必須要趕快去領表了但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3800.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3817.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
當時中選會一開始是跟領銜人他們說如果沒有公文債而且領銜人的身份證還有他的委託書當時也都在限調站沒有就不能夠領所以當時他們熱鍋上螞蟻一直在不知道該怎麼處理這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3819.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3848.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我請他們依照正常的程序趕快跟地檢署說結果地檢署第一份新聞稿發說沒有扣這個東西好然後第二份新聞稿就是我們在一直跟他講他說沒有結果後來我們還拜託記者去跟他說然後這時候才說有然後有了以後呢他發明了一個我從來沒有看過的東西啦我先想請教部長啊部長請問一下我國齁那個扣押物品的扣押有哪幾種部長知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3850.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3869.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
沒關係 部長 請看這個PowerPoint就除了一般我們對於搜索票上面已經載明應該扣押哪些東西之外我們還有附帶扣押 另案扣押 還有非附屬於搜索的扣押我想請教部長 回到上一頁我想請教部長 宜蘭地檢署新聞稿說 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3872.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3899.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
發現 經過向調查官反映的時候發現與本案相關查扣資料並同帶回調查站請問部長 並同帶回是屬於哪一種扣押這就是扣押嗎 可謂證據獲得沒收拾單了是就可以扣押不是 他屬於哪一種扣押 並同帶回是扣押嗎這個帶回是扣押 這個還沒有扣押嗎這個搜索到的東西不一定 這個還沒有啊有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3900.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3921.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
這個要請調查局他們來回答請調查局回答包委員你指的這件文件當時是有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面而且這個扣押的現場是有檢察官帶隊的這不是重點憑什麼去查扣跟本案無關的東西甚至他公文上面一望即知這跟一階連署有什麼關 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3923.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3949.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
請問一下局長我們可以去查扣非收索票上面所載跟本案無關顯然是另案而且跟犯罪無關的東西我們可以把它扣回去嗎請問一下什麼叫做併同待回這是屬於刑訴訟法的哪一個條文我想委員可能對這件公文的內涵不是很清楚因為偵查不公開的問題所以我只能很很籠統的告訴你這件公文出現在那個現場就是一個問號 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3951.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3974.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
對 所以當時檢察官跟調查官要扣押 局長這份公文出現在現場問號是什麼 你跟我講清楚法律有沒有規定不可以有這個東西出現在現場這件公文就不是搜索 當時這個搜索現場的授文人 授文者就不是這個搜索現場的所以檢察官覺得這個應該要釐清 他把它扣押回來這太離譜了吧 局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3977.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4000.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
有什麼規定說這一份公文一份公文合法的公文我不能夠放在哪一個地點我國法律有這樣規定嗎所以檢察官他需要釐清所以檢察官他需要釐清啊局長你講這個太外行了喔你不要把我當外行人看我一直在這邊跟各位報告如果我今天外行人你來跟我講這個就算了我聽不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4001.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4028.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那我今天在 好 那如果照你這樣講那限調站裡面有非常多也不是限調站的東西 你們為什麼不全部查扣回家然後第二個我想請問一下什麼叫做併同待回需不需要立法院幫各位修法把併同待回四個字修進刑事訴訟法裡面沒有 我想他那個併同待回其實他這件事有在扣押清澈裡面的啦整個程序是合法的 我跟委員報告這一點你放心所以今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4030.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4047.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
今天不能扣押的東西我愛扣就扣只要在扣押物品清單裡面就可以嗎局長你的意思是這樣對不對這個檢察官他在現場認定啊檢察官他在現場你現在推給檢察官就對了不是啊這個好那檢察官他有帶隊的法務部長請問一下檢察官帶隊就可以隨便愛扣就扣嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4049.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4071.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我不是不懂,麻煩部長說實話,麻煩局長說實話現場的話,那個搜索的,如果檢察當場認為有關聯性的當然我們就可以扣押,就可以先帶回釐清嘛但是這個後來沒有查過,這個新聞稿也發放給律師來簽收了嘛所以這個並沒有查扣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4072.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4091.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
而且這個是在那個搜索的現場這個是好像那個裡面的你真的確定部長已經多少次我們在這裡的質詢後來回去法官檢察官看到覺得很可笑你今天刑事訴訟法我剛已經給部長我剛已經給你看了我國刑事訴訟法的查扣的方式有哪幾種嘛那後來這個認為是這個就經過一個解釋我們認為說這個檢察認為說沒有查過的必要那就發凡了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4100.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4123.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
第一個我先跟各位說明我認為把這個東西扣走這個就屬於一個不合法的扣押這第一個第二個即使你今天是一個合法的扣押那為什麼宜蘭地檢署第一份新聞稿說沒有這個事情請問這是怎麼回事為什麼第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿的內容不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4124.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4149.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這個釐清了嘛 這個釐清了所以才發一個新聞 說調查官將該子公文交律師來領回我不知道我國現在的制度可以荒謬的解釋成這樣 我愛怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋了這個沒有什麼說愛怎麼解釋 部長我尊重你是前輩 但是法律我們念的是同一套如果照這樣子的話 那以後搜索我現場我愛扣什麼就扣什麼 我就說我要回家看 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4150.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4175.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
是可以這樣嗎然後我再跟各位報告我國刑事訴訟法沒有併同待回這四個字你跟我講併同待回是屬於扣押的哪一種請你告訴我這個是放在整個一個文件裡面的嘛是放在整個文件裡面的不能這樣講啊 放在文件裡面這個怎麼會是這樣講呢 部長我聽不懂欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4176.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4201.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
扣押的意思就是跟本案有關的犯罪物證我們才能扣押嘛所以我即使去一個地點搜索如果我今天去總統府搜索我要搜第幾局的東西然後我可以把總統辦公室的東西一起扣走嗎這我絕對反對到底的嘛那一樣的邏輯是這樣啊或者是我去總統府哪一個單位搜索我可以把他上面總統寫給他的東西我一起扣走嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4203.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4215.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
對不對 哪一個同仁採購涉嫌違法我就把總統給他的另外一個公文一起帶走嗎可為證據獲得沒收之物當然就是可以扣押嘛那這個檢討在當場認為這個有關聯性的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4218.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4237.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這個是可以當觀念性的一個證物那後來整個一個調查後釐清了沒有扣押的證文認為可以釐清 那我們就報告部長 如果你要這樣子解釋刑事訴訟法那我們國內刑事訴訟法在強制處分那一章可能要完全大修了就檢察官可以要怎麼樣 愛扣什麼就扣什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4237.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4257.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
尤其是那一份公文上面清清楚楚寫的是什麼我跟你講啦你今天當事人要求發還你第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿講的內容就不一樣不要當大家傻子看不懂上面寫什麼我第一份新聞稿看到檢方這樣發我還想說不可能檢方不會騙人啊我還跟他們說他們是不是弄錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4258.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4280.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
結果他們還拜託記者去跟檢察官講之後才會有第二份公文出來我沒有辦法理解什麼叫做併同待回啦所以我現在能想到是不是我們還要幫兩個單位去修法否則我不知道怎麼去解釋併同待回這件事最後還好意思寫說嚴守法定程序這我更覺得要是我今天出了這個包我就出來道個歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4281.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4297.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那另外我也想跟部長講一下跟局長講一下如果說今天你查扣了已經放進扣押物品清單了然後你今天把證物袋打開你有沒有進行正常的啟封程序有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4298.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4320.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
如果沒有的話就便衣措施打開就發環嗎所以這個都請各位去了解你今天在辦的一個案子如果已經高度爭議了那是不是程序上面要更嚴謹我在這邊也跟各位報告一件事我們每個人都會出包我們自己當檢察官的時候有時候程序不小心也會錯但是錯的時候你就出來道個歉說這邊不小心扣到我趕快發環 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4322.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4337.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我覺得這樣子大家國人都可以接受每個人都一定會有不小心弄錯的時候但是如果不小心弄錯了又硬拗自己沒有錯硬拗這個屬於法定程序我跟你講如果我今天在當檢察官我去你家搜索愛扣什麼就扣什麼我去搜兒子的東西我把他爸媽的 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4338.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4365.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
存摺全部一起扣回家慢慢看把爸媽手機一起扣回家你看有沒有這個狀況另外我再跟部長和局長報告另外一件事情但這個東西有很多人在抱怨說當天去現場的時候有一些人他們的手機他根本跟本案無關他只是義工而已手機就被到場的調查官要求拿出來給調查官看然後在那邊看了一個小時之後把它還給當事人那我想請問一下這個的法律依據是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4367.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4391.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
他不是收索扣押物喔那今天如果現場有個工友在那邊打掃是不是也叫工友把手機拿來我看一下裡面寫了什麼然後看完之後我看得很高興看完之後還給他我請問一下這個法律依據在哪裡好吧 兩位答不出來我跟委員報告齁 這個訴訟法112 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4399.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4415.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
122條齁因為這個法官有核定的一個搜索票的內容來執行搜索那122條齁對第三人齁第三人身體物件電子記錄其他處所有相應的可信為被告犯罪嫌因扣押字物存在違憲的搜索資所以這個那你問這些人 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4418.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4438.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
這個是現場嗎你現場好那今天這樣講就我剛剛講的那個例子我今天如果總統府某一個人涉貪譬如說總統府有共諜案我去那裡辦共諜案我請總統手機交出來給我看因為我懷疑你是犯罪嫌疑人內斷外換罪我一樣可以辦你我可以這樣嗎那這樣子的話我國事法不就無限制了這個還有133那個那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4442.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4460.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
那個一山一條進行搜索的情況也可以可以直接進行搜索嗎?凡是可為證據或得莫受擔惡的依法扣押之罵這整次進行搜索後來是三日內懲罰法院的問題而已今天出來抱怨那些都是現場的義工他可能就在那邊打掃然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4461.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4484.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
調查局的人到現場就叫他們把手機交出來而且非常多人交出來之後手機就在那邊讓他們看了一個小時看完之後也沒有進行任何的程序沒有扣押沒有把這些人簽為被告手機就還他那今天人家不滿的是這個如果兩位長官你們覺得這樣行為是對的那請 沒關係今天全程錄影公開然後我再講另外一個雖然最高檢說 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4493.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4508.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
最高檢說 今天我點出來那些東西他說傷害司法違行但我跟各位兩位報告你們在這樣操作下去才是傷害司法違行我今天我講的每一個東西都是告訴國人你在行政訴訟法上面你有什麼權益你在接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4509.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4536.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
執行機關 司法機關調查搜索的時候你可以主張什麼這個是我國刑事訴訟法我們保障每個人民的基本權利耶民進黨不是最愛講基本人權嗎我國憲法的基本人權明明白白規範在那裡耶我有非常多的自由我有免於恐懼的自由就我今天在面對調查官的時候我跟本案完全無關我是義工我到現場掃地的我到現場整理花圃的 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4537.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4564.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
然後在那邊叫我把手機交出來給他看然後他也沒有把我簽為被告我也不是犯罪嫌疑人東西也沒有把我扣走你要是把我查扣回去看我還無話可說現場看一看一個小時後發環這非常多地方的人都遇到這種事情如果兩位認為這樣是對的好沒關係 那就這樣我在這邊只是跟各位報告我在當司法人員的一天我總是要求每一個人要嚴守程序正義 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4565.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4593.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
因為陳居正是死的改天回過頭來當事人來檢舉我的時候我無話可說啊因為那不涉及主觀判斷嘛如果對於宜蘭的這個做法這樣齁我真的覺得我不知道兩位回去你們面對你們所帶領的那些同仁不知道是怎麼樣我從來不覺得說你可以現場隨便你要查過什麼就查過什麼我要人家交出手機就交出手機 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4595.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4597.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
士林北投吳思瑤罷免的那個領銜的賴怡任 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4599.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4625.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
他的女朋友的手機放在家裡然後他調查官還叫賴以任去問他女朋友的手機號碼密碼幾號 叫他問到要打開來看其實這個東西在法律上面都有問題除非你認為他女朋友跟他是共同證犯也是犯罪嫌疑人之一 那我沒有話說但你今天你不能這樣做啊我今天在這邊希望替國人要求的就是一個程序正義國人在接受公權力的執行的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4626.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4647.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
他有法律上合法的權利我絕對支持國家偵辦犯罪就像這次偽造文書不管別人怎麼講不管人家說我什麼我就說偽造文書犯罪就是犯罪該辦就是該辦但是要注意一下你的比例原則對不對你的平等性原則對不對你辦男辦女邏輯完全不一樣我就沒有辦法理解好 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4648.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4650.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
局長我請問一下最近這幾個案子包括北檢的案子請問一下檢察官在指揮偵辦這個案子的時候請問一下涉犯的法條是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4669.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4693.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
最近這個罷免聯署的案件目前初步看起來就是偽造文書嘛然後個人資料保護法就偽造文書跟個人資料保護法嘛對不對因為具體的偵查的細節要檢查官才知道但是目前非常的清楚就是偽造文書以及個人資料保護法那我想請問一下調查局偽造文書 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4694.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4711.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
跟各支你們是屬於你們組織法裡面第二條裡面的哪一個範圍哪一個執掌範圍你們組織法第二條有好幾種執掌範圍是請問是哪一種如果是在這個有跟選舉罷免有關的部分是屬於我們廉政工作的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4713.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4737.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
廉政工作範圍嗎?跟選舉罷免有關的就是廉政工作範圍過往都是在經濟嘛對 如果他單純是偽造文書的話是屬於經濟犯罪防治處的業務好 那如果是在選舉罷免的這個階段的話我現在有一個問題嘛我現在有一個問題嘛檢察官各地發的新聞稿到目前為止他涉犯的法條就兩個偽造文書以及違反各自法這兩個東西好 那我剛剛請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4743.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4753.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那你們這個偽造文書以前那個績效合分怎麼算這個就要看我們業務處他的規定好沒關係你這邊講不出來那沒有關係喔好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4757.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4784.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我再請教你一個問題就是說你們最近真的弄到我已經覺得不知道該怎麼去面對你們請問一下局長你擔任基層調查官多久三十年那立案的標準是只要有情資就可以立案還是要有一定的證據當然要有一定程度的證據那立案是誰立案 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4785.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4811.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
各站的立案者是誰 各外勤立案 副主任嘛 對不對也不一定喔 有些是授權案件 有些是非授權案件 看案件的類型那立案的情況也很多 有時候是檢察官交查的對 不一定是我們主動發掘那根據你的經驗 績效制度是不是有存在的必要 這才能激勵基層辦案當然 大家都要有一定的一個標準嘛 對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4812.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4836.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
好所以我在這邊跟各位報告就是說所謂的績效等等不管在民間企業或政府企業它其實關係到每個人的升遷還有考績我想這個大概沒有問題嘛一部分對好這當然是一部分啦我們還會考核他的那個那個青年度啦個性啦私生活等等這個我可以理解啦那所以說我今天我要請教你一個問題既然 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4841.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4858.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
好那我想請教你一個問題這一次齁這一次你所謂的幽靈聯署這個齁賈官他認為涉犯的法療是偽造文書跟違反個人資料保護法但是你們這個有關績效的評比你們是放在哪一個項目之下我剛有跟委員報告就是屬於廉政業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4860.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4882.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
因為這個是你們的新聞稿那我這邊就跟各位請教一個問題而且我要告訴國人一個問題就是今天檢察官說得非常清楚今天這些行為涉犯的叫做偽造文書以及違反個人資料保護法結果調查局用什麼來合分給績效大家知道嗎他們用選舉查查 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4884.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4906.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
為什麼過往調查官在選舉查期間都像發了瘋一樣不管藍綠的選舉都像發了瘋一樣一直下去殺一直下去砍在選舉查查的期間因為選舉查查的和分續獎都比較高而且時間短他不像一般案件他要辦非常久才能夠拿得到他的組織才拿得到和分他個人才拿得到續獎 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4908.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4931.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所以說選舉查查其間 很多人就等四年一次的地方選舉因為立委跟總統的選舉不好查所以他們很多調查官一直以來都在等這四年一次的地方選舉然後在這邊去拿到積分 拿到續獎因為這個東西跟他升遷有非常大的關聯性但是這一次不是 這一次我個人看到的結果是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4934.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4945.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
各位長官 各位司法的長官為了要讓這些調查官瘋狂的去查辦所有連連署的案件你把他認為這叫選舉查查案件然後我也跟兩位報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4948.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4965.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
請兩位知道一件事情我在這個體系做了20年我非常多好朋友非常多調查官我都認識他們會跟我們講很多事情他非常多事情不敢跟長官報告長官要求他什麼他也不得不做甚至檢察官有檢查一體制檢查一體制上級交辦什麼檢察官就必須要辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4966.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4988.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
還有檢察局這個存在調查站有上下隸屬的問題所以基層都不得不聽大家的指揮去辦但是他們心中有非常多的怨恨所以這段時間有不同的調查站一直跟我講同樣的問題就是今天這個案子連中選會都出來說新法有關偽造文書的部分跟這一次的連署適用舊法無關 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4990.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5010.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
無關所以這一次檢察官所承辦的案子沒有關係到選舉罷免法但是調查局要希望調查官下去瘋狂的辦這個案子他把他的續講改為選舉塔塔的續講這就是今天問題的所在我必須要告訴國人就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5013.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5024.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我知道在你們一定會講一個東西啦你說郭台銘那個案子的時候也有怎麼樣啦問題郭台銘那個連鎖的時候他是涉及到用錢去買他是有行賄的問題兩個完全不一樣我可以就你的問題說明嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5027.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5045.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
好第一點我們針對這一次的連署罷免沒有任何的專案然後績效的部分就是回歸到選舉查查因為我想你也理解嘛這個在選舉罷免的階段的一些犯罪的行為當然就是選舉查查但是沒有特別加成也沒有特別的優待這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5047.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5068.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
你會不會講這些在誤導國人我到現在此刻為止我到現在此刻為止我沒有跟你談加成喔我只是跟你講說你把一般刑案檢察官的一般刑案灌去選舉罷免法案件我跟你說明我們調查局內部的內控的做法嘛那我舉個例子來講司法詐欺他是詐欺還是司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5068.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5084.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
司法詐欺我們是在廉政案件然後再來一個這個選舉查查的績效不是你講的說很容易拿到然後分數又特別高 反而是剛好相反我們選舉查查的案件是必須要檢察官有起訴我們才會給績效所以不會說大家瘋狂的去做然後為了升遷 你講這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5094.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5114.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
就像我講的你們總是講一些讓基層的人聽到之後會當笑話聽的不會不會選舉查的績效很難拿沒錯但是他的誘因就是很大因為他的續獎以他的合分就是誘因很大不然你看每次選舉查的期間為什麼我們沒有特別的續獎的規定在這個選舉查查沒有我今天把問題點出來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5116.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5134.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
就很簡單的第一個你去所有我覺得國人都可以去問你所認識的調查官選舉查的分數及選舉查的續講是不是大家時間到就想講很多尤其是比較鄉下的調查站更希望利用四年一次的地方選舉機會好好的去辦選舉罷免案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5136.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5156.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
好 這是第一個第二個 本次各地監署所發的信用稿它所相關的條文只有刑法以及個人資料保護法但是調查局 貴局竟然可以把它認定它的續講和分是用選罷法案件沒關係 調查局局長你是主觀你有你的決定權但是我在這邊就告訴各位國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5162.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5185.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
司法是對付犯罪者 司法不是對付善良百姓我請各位要知道這個點然後另外請不要用這種方式去利誘調查官去辦這種案子這些調查官 基層調查官 基層檢察官都很辛苦他們也希望說能夠得到升遷 能夠得到續獎 大家都是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5186.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5201.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我覺得當長官的 你要有那個肩膀扛下來 任何的壓力你今天做了一個以前沒有的事情以前沒有過的 已經違反法律的平等原則委員你放心啦 我們一定開大門走的我想時間的關係 時間的關係我們是不是 吳委員的質詢就到此 謝謝好 謝謝 下一位我們請王逸川委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5230.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5244.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
好 謝謝主席我先請國安局的副局長麻煩國安局副局長非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5245.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5260.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
請問一下現在在國安局上班的人有沒有人不用經過特殊查核基本上我們任用的人員都是要經過特殊的查核全部嗎?是只要走進國安局上班的人?對 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5262.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5281.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
走進國安局上班那個門裡面的人每個人都要經過查核是沒有任何一個例外對當然公有是沒有做一個查核但是正式的人員包括我們的志願役的人員都一定要做過查核好謝謝那請回好我們現在請這個調查局去講 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5288.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5296.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
委員好局長我們這個特殊查核的相關辦法裡頭有對象的一覽表是那這一覽表是調查局提的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5298.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5319.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
不是 是他的主管 這個特查辦法是人事行政總署主管的然後就是由各機關提出來 他們可能揭秘等等的跟國安有關的 重大利益有關的 由機關提出來他定出一個副表出來以後各個機關提 然後就成為那個副表 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5320.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5334.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那如果機關沒有提了就不會進到裡頭嘛對不對對 因為我們不知道機關哪些人是有揭秘的條件OK 那你今天的報告裡頭提到說啊這個原來的人數只有1328位嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5338.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5354.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那可是就不包括重大政策規劃執行政務人員協助機關處理的秘書機要人員 約聘顧人員立法院的職員跟立法院的助理就是說不包括這些所以你們現在有在研議要把這一些納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5356.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5380.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
那卓院長只是先納入就是說跟政務有關的這些人然後在相關約聘僱的這個辦法裡頭就已經呈現他自願辦理嘛 對不對那如果不願意簽了就不要來當這個職務對 可能就不要用那這個會擴及到多少人目前的人數出估是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5383.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5401.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
您的報告是寫1108對吧跟委員報告目前大概有行政院長有開過會現在大概就是階段性第一階段就是行政院所屬機關本來政務人員都排除嘛但現在他現在要求把政務人員全部通通都要納入然後再來就是主任秘書以上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5401.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5427.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
也全部都要包含他的機要他的秘書等等的都要但是有些因為他不是公務員因為他母法是公務人員任用法那有些他不是公務人員他是約聘僱人員的就用契約去規範他你要簽的這個契約要同意接受特殊查核那才會任用那這一些人的這個定義是各個單位自己提是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5429.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5448.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
譬如說外交部長的辦公室主任 外交部部長室裡頭有約聘僱人員這個約聘僱人員接下來就很有可能他如果不簽這個同意書 志願查的同意書的話 那他就不能來這裡任職 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5451.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5479.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
不是說一定不能就是說主管就要考慮說既然這個人不願意簽你還要不要用他可以調整去其他不揭密的這個工作那這樣會不會草木皆兵就是說盡量縮小到必要的範圍裡面也提到立法院的立委的國會助理那現在如果有個別的立法委員要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5480.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5500.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我的國會助理全部納入特殊查核你們會收嗎這個可能就要立法院要先訂定相關的辦法我們依照那個立法院的一些辦法不要我立法委員自願啊自願的話我們現在目前沒有法源依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5501.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5513.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那為什麼行政單位就有依據那個行政院以下的行政院以下的啊那立法院不虧行政院以下的就是說外交部聘的約聘雇人員嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5513.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5540.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那這一個部長認為這個有必要 那我就納入 對不對那我立法委員 我認為我的國會助理有必要我要納入 這樣不行目前沒有法源的依據五院除了行政院以外 其他四院都要試驗自己有自己的這個特查的一些相關的辦法意思就是說 在執行上才會有依據意思就是說如果立法院不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5541.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5567.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
立法院 不要講不同意 立法院沒有送出一個說我們立法院 哪些人應該查那個別在裡頭的人也沒辦法就對了我們就沒有執行議事今天假設這個立法院的院長他說我有聘了這個立院的顧問嘛我聘了立院顧問 那我聘了立院顧問是有薪水的那這兩位我希望能夠納入特殊查核 這樣也不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5576.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5585.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
不是公務人員任用法裡面所規範的對象所以還是要回到個別的機關那你們收件是以機關為單位機關會發文來給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5594.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5618.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
機關會發文來給我們好那我舉個例子喔譬如說台中市政府交通局台中市政府交通局的局長室的約聘僱人員我台中市政府交通局發一個說這個幫我列入特殊查核你們說不說包委員你講的這個又是另外一個地方政府也不在這個不在這個1328的列標裡面嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5621.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5645.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
地方政府也不在正面表列的職務裡面那也不能加?加可以加人總如果把它加進來的話就可以那我現在就說如果這個交通局發一個通知人總說把我這個局長的約聘僱的秘書納入那這個機制要怎麼進行?應該是由台中市政府來做發動 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5647.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5673.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
台中市政府來發動 他告知人總說他這些單位的什麼職務 他是有接觸機密的應該要做特殊查核 把它作為公告那會不會有一種情形是這些人都沒有主動提這些機關啊 這些職務人都沒有主動提調查局認為這些人應該納入或者是國家哪一個單位認為這些漏掉了誰可以發動 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5676.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5685.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
人事行政總署可以發動人事行政總署對國家安全他有特殊的他不會主動召集他不會主動召集 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5689.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5693.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
假設現在有一個職務我們發現原來那個職務會牽扯到以前大家都沒想過原來那個職務會影響到總會是有一個單位來發動說這幾個位置應該要把他納入那那個發動的人是誰發動的人總不能是行政院院長吧現在看起來是行政院院長覺得這些人應該要納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5714.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5741.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
現在的規定沒有納入所以現在報告是說昨院長發現這些人沒有納入所以就請你們去研議一下哪些人要納入總不能什麼事情都是這個行政院院長來發動現在是院長是指示那個政委在統籌這件事情所以政委有召集過幾次會議那像我們的比如說我再請問一下那個國安局的這個副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5742.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5752.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
所以你一邊走一邊問啊就是說國安局如果發現有一些職務啊譬如說你們在做相關的分析的時候發現某一些職務確實也應該納入你們會尋什麼樣的途徑啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5757.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5772.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
希望人總各單位把這幾個職位給納入特殊查核如果是需要特殊查核因為涉及到國家的機密部分我們都很樂見再有一個法規的規範來實施如果有發現這個問題我們會循我們的體系國安體系來做一個反應 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5781.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5802.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
我的意思是說 譬如說全國的紅綠燈 全國的號誌因為我以前當局長的時候 調查局台中的來找我們說你們那個紅綠燈的安全 如果有一天入侵了你們紅綠燈的系統 台中市的號誌大亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5804.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5823.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
恐怕很危險所以他希望來檢核我們的這個紅綠燈的這個控制的相關的安全我們的行控中心那就是說如果這件事情被國安局也認為說這件事情確實很嚴重如果有一天全台灣的紅綠燈在瞬間全部被侵入了 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5824.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5850.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
全部都不能運作了 全部都怎樣了如果啦 如果被國安局認定說這件事情在國家安全上也有一定層級的影響那會不會有相關的建議那我說這個建議的這個發動會是在你們這個單位還是台灣有哪一個單位可以說我們發現這幾個位置這幾個職務其實是蠻重要的它有可能的影響到接下來的國家安全它可能影響到它可能會被這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5852.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5876.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
被侵入 這些相關的人員可能會被吸收 諸如此類的事情到底哪一個單位 在國安局的立場到底哪一個單位可以去提議說 這個應該要納入我們如果有發現這個情資進來的時候我們詢那個 比方說我們行政院的那個訴發部因為這個剛剛涉及到一個治安的問題 害侵治安的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5877.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5900.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
所以統籌由行政院的訴發部來做一個統籌的處理所以你們把資訊給訴發部那訴發部再去做研議對 後續的一個研議去推動OK 我是希望說接下來因為今天教導局的報告裡頭寫了蠻多新的職位新的職位 那這些利害關係他就發現說 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5901.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5917.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
原來我也有 原來我也會被要求要自願這樣子所以第一個我擔心草木皆兵就是說無限上綱到一定程度那第二個就是說這一個如果沒有被你納入的 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5917.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5938.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
而這個國家認為這些人應該也被納入這樣的一個機制總不能老是透過行政院長發現一個個案然後行政院長說這也要納入這也要納入這看起來這個制度上是不太對啦所以這個題目是不是看是不是請這個國安局或者是調查局這一邊或人總大家商討一下說這種主動被動的這個機制到底是什麼然後才能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5947.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5956.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
接下來弄到制度比較完善好 謝謝你們 謝謝謝謝王委員 那下一位我們請林倩琦委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5968.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5968.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
法務部、調查局、國安局、外交部、人事行政總署 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5987.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6013.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
福音同仁大家好那今天我們就針對近期整個包括總統府包括國安會還有這個外交部等等所爆出來的這個共諜案我們在這邊來針對制度面還有未來的因應來做個討論所以本席今天的這個質詢是針對這個國安漏洞然後提出三個討論的這個議題第一個是中程查核制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6014.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6036.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
似乎失靈然後第二個部分是總統府的這個反滲透的一個破口不過今天總統府也沒有人來實在有點可惜然後最後一個是那中共現在對整個台灣的系統性滲透似乎已經到了包括黑幫包括宮廟所以這個部分本席這邊要跟大家來做個討論那首先我們剛剛講的三個單位總統府 國安會 外交部那連環報了這個共諜案 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6041.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6066.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
那涉案的人員讓人家非常的驚訝是長期都接觸國家機密但是卻完全沒有有效的動態查核那顯示我們的國安整個制度有點名存實亡雖然一些委員也針對這個部分做了質詢但是大家目前針對過往這個部分的失靈似乎也沒有太多的交代跟回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6067.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6087.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
也感覺到很無力所以尤其對於政務在這些應該被查核的人員當中呢政務、約聘跟特聘的人員如同你們所講的沒有相關的這個查核的依據那是不是這顯示了一個制度設計跟執行上的一個失敗呢我想這個部分我們應該來探討一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6088.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6113.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那接下來因為今天總統府沒有代表來那非常可惜也不應該因為感覺上這個總統府的螺絲都已經鬆動了那這個部分應該總統府秘書長要有一些政治責任的回應那最後是新型的這個滲透的樣態在產生我不知道整個國安局對這個部分有沒有一些掌握那能不能建立一些跨部門聯防機制及時的列管還有跟異常團體對金流 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6118.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6140.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
的一個走向能夠了解這個是我們守住國安底線的一個很重要的關鍵所以第一個部分也就是忠誠查核制度的相對失靈先前也有幾位委員問到了這個問題包括總統府的助理盛楚英那麼國安會顧問 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6143.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6166.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
吳尚宇 那你們剛才講說他不在查核範圍那另外外交部 政務 幕僚 何仁傑那他也沒有經過定期的國安審查這就是本席所講的一個動態查核的狀況那但是我們聽起來好像沒有一個單位能夠主動的做些什麼事那這就是本席所說的似乎這樣一個動態的查核有一點失靈 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6167.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6193.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
好 那這幾個單位其實都是非常具有在整個政治權力上來講是非常核心的這就是為什麼這些單位爆出共諜案我想社會各界都非常的震驚所以這些高風險的政後卻沒有進入我們的忠誠安全查核的網絡然後呢 在過程當中似乎也沒有一些警示的機制那目前查核的制度感覺好像形同具聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6194.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6215.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
所以依照國家機密保護法第二條第九條的規定那政府對於機密業務人員應實施忠誠與安全之查核那明定的任用前要查核在職要定期查核還有離職前的這個終審那但是呢從幾位在針對先前也有委員問過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6218.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6241.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
調單位的查核然後是不是適用於查核的身份等等看來都沒有什麼在過往沒有什麼一個責任那聽起來都是每一個單位都是別人的事情那這個部分本席這邊感到非常的疑惑所以因為這個缺乏落實跟責任歸屬的機制導致查核成為不查最安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6242.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6261.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
不查最安全的行政慣性所以現在面對非正式的編制的涉密人員如果沒有明確的法律義務包括政務人員、政治幕僚、特聘顧問、約聘的技術人員這似乎是這整件事情的一個共同漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6262.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6282.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那這個部分是不是有必要來立刻研議修正國家機密保護法明定實質接觸的機密者不論其任用形式或編制的身份應該受到法律的這個查查不知道這個是不是可以請部長或局長這邊有一些回應或建議呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6288.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6307.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這個委員的這部分就是要增加特殊查核的名單的這些問題那這部分行政院有規劃將行政局首屬各機關各全體政務人員及協助其辦理業務的秘書助理這些有接觸到涉密的 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6308.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6325.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
這些的聘僱人員主任秘書層級以上的辦公室辦理秘書機要業務的生命也聘僱人員納入辦理特查的對象這不是有增加齁那增加 那這個增加齁 那個調查局這邊也統計齁那目前的話齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6326.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6339.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
如果說因為目前有特殊差異有1328個特殊差異如果說這個行政院我們院長的一個指示有增加了這部分會增加1008人那這樣的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6342.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6357.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
28以上再增加1008人這樣的話人數會增加2000多人那這部分是有這樣的一個指示目前有這樣子一個規劃就對了有有有 這個行政院有這樣的一個指示 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6358.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6375.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
好的那這個部分本席在上次聽到有委員也針對那個換工作的這個查核也跟你們提出一些問題那所以呢這個動態的查核也很重要的就是一個動態更新的能力那目前似乎都留在靜態錄質時的查核那可能剛才部長所講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6378.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6385.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
未來就算有這樣一個規劃那似乎也都是在入職時候的查核但是上次很重要一個問題就是說當有人換單位之後事後行為的追蹤或異常接觸的這個審核機制那會導致 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6394.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6416.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
在任用前查核之後呢任用進來之後就變成很放任然後在職也沒有追蹤的常態現象那目前查核的目前涉案的幾個人員是不是都有這樣一個共通性因為中間都沒有再被查核也沒有任何異常報告的程序那麼像何仁傑這個是最著名的他換了單位那也沒有查核那他第一次查核是因為他剛進入了這個國安會進行了查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6419.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6436.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那這似乎在風險控管的一個基本原則上有一些衝突所以是不是我記得上一回你們也說這個人事單位要主動提出來那我想是不是可以請教一下人事總署的代表那你們如何來主動提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6437.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6452.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
這樣子的一個機制呢跟委員報告依照那個任用法以及相關授權法令的規定各機關的職務數是由他們去檢視業務所提報的所以它還關係到各機關嘛但是各機關的回應都說這個人事單位要主動提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6453.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6474.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
所以本席這邊就很confused不知道你們在內部的一個這個查核的作業那究竟如果業務單位沒有提給你們那是不是有點堵直那你們沒有主動去查核是不是又不夠負責所以這是本席在先前針對這樣的問題聽到大家的一個回應那似乎看起來沒有一個單位能夠主動來做這件事本席不知道這樣子的認知對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6475.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6492.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
跟委員報告一下因為那個相關法規裡面是寫國家安全或重大利益那我們請客機關的檢視的時候都有列舉一些好比說國安啊情治什麼什麼什麼的就是有請客機關就是大概依照什麼樣子的性質是屬於所以先前就有這樣了嘛對不對那這樣看起來是這幾個單位都有一點這個瀆職喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6495.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6510.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
跟委員報告一下各機關內部的盤點因為那個是各機關內部的行政處理的事務流程那到底是由那個程序上面是誰決定應該還是首長做最後的決定就是哪一些職務要特查這應該還是各機關自己要去做內部盤點 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6511.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6517.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
好的 那今天你們有出來做這樣子的說明那不過本席認為你們也應該要建立一個行為安全評估跟記錄審核的一個制度你今天雖然做這樣的回應說那各機關的業務主管應該要提出可是發生的這個事情看起來應該各業務單位都沒有主動的提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6530.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6558.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
所以當事情發生的時候他說你們這邊應該要提出來所以這樣感覺有點踢皮球本席聽了幾次都聽不到真正的全署跟問責的這個單位所以本席今天先做這樣一個建議所以你們是不是應該要將駐外人員或高階幕僚或涉密的單位的職員也納入一些定期的看你們用什麼方式的一個規劃去做審查他才會有一個持續性然後跟即時性就不會像這次發生了然後發現哇這麼久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6560.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6574.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
結果一查查核 都好幾年了耶那大部分的人都沒有經過定時的或更新的這樣一個查核我想這是問題很重要的一個所在所以人事總署是不是這個部分也應該建立查核失靈的一些這個責任歸屬的這個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6577.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6600.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
跟委員報告我們會遵照那個院長的指示喔就是就那個揭密程度這個是查核範圍跟項目的部分以及查核的頻率那以及確實去督導各機關要怎麼去檢視他們的那個特查的植物數好的那這個部分是不是你們如果有比較具體的那個辦法出來那把相關的資料給本席做一個參考好不好是有辦法會會嫌所以到時候應該是會公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6602.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6630.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
好的 謝謝那本來今天我也想針對這個總統府還有這個國安會來做一些探討結果他們都沒有人出席而且我覺得已經也不是第一次所以我覺得這個問題還蠻嚴重的那我們沒有辦法在這邊探討問題那他們的部分我就先保留希望能夠哪一天他們真的能夠來跟我們面對面大家來討論一下這個問題不是只有問責而已而是問題出在哪裡是我們很想要處理跟探討的 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6631.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6657.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
好那最後這邊我提醒一下其實不只是這個中共對於我們的高階相關的人員掌握得非常透徹那近期的這個共諜案其實我們在點的部分已經都被滲透了但是呢據本席的了解目前這個中共結合黑幫也好公廟也好那麼地下金流網絡跟有一些地方社團的 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6659.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6676.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
現狀跟網狀的這個操作操控也非常的嚴重那看起來目前都已經有一些滲透點了所以根據國安局的報告不好意思國安局好像是代表您好那中共其實有吸收一些台灣的幫派分子那透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6676.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6694.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
借款,他透過很多種不同的形式借款、賭債、地下錢莊等金流然後也刺探一些軍事的機密那甚至呢,在戰時還會生一些五星旗來癱瘓交通什麼樣子的樣態都有那我不知道國安局目前在這個部分掌握的程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6698.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6716.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
像中共滲透的手法我們大概都有掌握剛所舉例的像比如說黑幫、宮廟或地下金流等等團體這個方式大概我們國安局都會掌握有收援目前你們對於這整個掌握有多少比例的信心? |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6717.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6727.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我想我們情報掌握以後認為說這個涉及到國家安全的一些相關的證據以後我們會移給司法警察機關做後續的一個偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6729.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6752.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
所以你們過去都比較集中在軍政的這個情報還有敵情的狀態那本席今天提醒的是中共對我們基礎社會的基層結構那目前的滲透我們希望國安局在這個部分也能夠更積極一點的掌握然後所以還是問一下在本席所談的這個基層結構您目前掌握的比例你自己給自己打多少percentage |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6753.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6767.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我想比例部分我們沒辦法去確確的一個說明不過像比方說村里長或者一些剛剛講的公廟或者黑道幫派等等這個基層的這個層面的部分當然我們都會列為一個情收的一個要項 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6769.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6789.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
所以本席在這邊就做這個部分的提醒因為先前這幾個共諜案已經讓我們很驚嚇了基本上已經掌握到我國很重要的一個政治權利中心那當然在這個社會基礎基層裡面那如果再被這樣子很大面積的滲透我想我們國安就真的面臨很大的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6790.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6810.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
好 所以最後也請警政署這邊能夠來配合那針對這些公廟組織幫派那能夠有相關的這個列管那有具體的事蹟好不好那我們共同為我們的國安來努力好 謝謝謝林委員 那下一位我們請王委員 王宏威委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6819.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6832.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
好謝謝主席主席我想在我咨詢之前仍然要針對總統府和國安會並沒有派代表來參加我們這次司法法治委員會的這個專題報告因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6836.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6854.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
這兩個單位事實上都已經被證實有共諜涉入這是非常嚴重的事情那麼尤其我們現在賴政府呢現在尤其針對中共是境外敵對勢力那麼也是要整個升高我們國安的意識 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6855.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6874.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
但是今天在我們的最高單位總統府跟國安會都已經出現涉嫌共諜但是呢這兩個單位竟然連代表都不來參加來報告我覺得不但是藐視國會也顯示我們的政府不過是說一套做一套 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6875.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6904.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
所以在這邊我們一定要再做譴責尤其國安會秘書長其實包含國防外交委員會也曾經排會然後我們司法法治委員會也排會但是都聚不到這個立法院來做報告我覺得這樣子根本就是完全藐視這個共諜案對於我們國安所造成的影響好 那主席我想接下來我請那個法務部部長麻煩部長還有國安局 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6905.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6909.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
副局長還有調查局局長我先請教部長因為在這次共諜案裡面除了這次的他的涉及的單位層級之高讓大家非常驚訝之外那另外大家也特別關注到 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6930.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6955.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
之前大家也提到這個盛楚英他在立法院從游錫堃院長時代他就已經擔任助理然後也有著我們非常多位的立委的辦公室包含許智傑還有這個郭育晴委員以及這個羅美玲委員那麼後來呢這個盛楚英呢是以20萬元交保 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6956.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6976.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那大家就在質疑作為共諜案這麼嚴重的一個這樣的涉案情節是20萬元交保但是如果我們再去比較其他的比如說最近社會高度關注的那個挖眼案這個鄰居之間吵架然後呢就是挖了雙眼 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6977.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6991.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
導致永久性的失明這個案子呢是12萬元交保然後接下來就是最近鬧得沸沸揚揚我們現在剪掉全台大搜索大羈押 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6992.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7020.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
的這個有關於連署民進黨立委的這個案子這裡面呢包含我們之前也提到這個四位年輕人分別以30萬元跟50萬元交保更不要說最近包含這個台北市黨部的主委黃綠錦如在內還有我們最近包含台中市黨部的這個書記長在內非常多人都被羈押進監 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7021.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7037.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
所以請問部長請問共諜案它的情節是不是比挖掩案就是跟挖掩案還有這個所謂的你所謂的偽照文書到底我們這個交保金額它的評斷標準是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7038.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7063.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
以這三個案子 過去還有喔 多少偽照文書過去也有我們零一級委員涉入了是 就是到就是有詐領助理費 也有偽照文書他的助理大概最高也是十萬元交保好 那麼這樣的太陽這麼多但是這個交保金額卻讓在我們社會一般大眾來講覺得這個情節重大 完全跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7066.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7091.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
並不符合比例原則所以請問一下部長請問我們這交保金額是怎麼定的跟委員報告就是檢查部當然是在涉及不同的一個案件的一個嫌疑都是會秉持客觀公正的執法態度那因為但是這個每個個案的情節是不同的那有關你金額交保的一個的 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7092.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7120.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
的金額多寡或者要不要羈押或者等等的強制處分權的一個一個行使齁都是要個案來判斷齁那我想這都是符合法律的規定所以如果按照沒什麼那個不同的一個沒有什麼標準可言這不是說沒什麼標準這個是就是要個案的一個判斷那我想請問喔如果說以罷免民進黨立委的案件是不是他的涉案會比共諜案更嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7122.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7137.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這個個案的情況不同我沒辦法就個案對於國家社會安全的危害來做一個來答覆無法相比這個個案不同個案的情況不同我沒辦法就因為我不是承辦檢察官我沒辦法就個案來 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7139.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7165.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
到個交保金額多少或者要不要羈押因為我們一般社會大眾對於司法總是有一個大家一般的這個有一把尺所以我在講說如果按照這個交保金額所以連署民進黨立委的這個他的危害情節比涉及共諜案更嚴重比挖掩案更嚴重造成人家永久失明更嚴重其他的那個涉及共諜都羈押禁建 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7166.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7188.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
但是還是有一位是交保啊但是那個個案的案件不一樣 情況不一樣那個我沒辦法就委員的說到底是要交保或治啊因為每個個案的情形不一樣所以委員說為什麼要交保那共鐵不願意當然共鐵是很嚴重的行為但是每個個案由懲辦檢查去按照這個個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7189.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7200.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
的一個不同的一個狀況去做不同的強制處分錢的一個行使請問一下這個盛楚英這位助理他目前仍然是交保中嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7201.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7224.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
現在是20萬交保嗎?這是20萬交保那當時大家也談到很多既然涉及共諜案其他人都被抓起來然後他可不可以在外面湮滅證據或者是他有沒有逃跑的嫌疑等等有沒有考慮在內?這個檢察官都會通盤來考量這個個案我沒辦法幫檢察官來回答這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7225.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7231.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
因為個案是檢察官我必須要講我剛才列出這幾個交保的金額案例這跟我們一般的民眾對於涉案情節的重大真的有非常大的一個不同我想請問一下我們調查局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7247.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7267.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
好 局長在你們的報告裡面談到就是因為這一次因為涉及的這個共諜在我們政府高層裡面非常多就特別談到了就是有關於中程查核的對象現在呢行政院要把中程查核對象要擴大嘛對不對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7269.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7291.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
按照你們的說法 那麼就是會把原來原來的這個終審查核對象按照現在行政院從會從1300多位增加到2300多位是嗎目前第一階段希望能夠對就是這個已經是確認的事情了嗎現在目前朝這個方向在規劃 還沒有做最後的確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7293.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7321.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
所謂還沒有做最後的確認是什麼意思你們不是說要針對政務官還有約聘僱的人員特別是跟著這些手掌在旁邊的這些約聘僱的這些助理啊秘書啊因為這次出現事情的大部分都是這一類的人員老師說啦以前很多都是啊這個手掌一路帶著像吳釗燮這個何仁傑就是如此啊一路 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7322.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7341.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
從那個他去哪裡他就帶到哪裡因為從這個民進黨之內就開始一路把他帶上去那這些人就是有關於這一些手掌旁邊的旁邊的這些助理機要是不是應該列入查核範圍內應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7343.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7363.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
好 所以這個應該是確定的 增加1008元所以目前就是朝這個方向在規劃那我另外請問你喔 我另外請問你在你的報告裡面有講說你們也準備針對立法院這應該是包含立法委員跟立法院的助理做特殊查核嗎這個我們尊重立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7365.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7381.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
因為你們是準備把它擴大這個不是行政院單方面能夠決定的 這個完全要尊重立法院那為什麼會列入呢因為很多立委也有提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7383.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7398.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
什麼叫很多立委提出來很多委員也有提出來說如果說他的助理要請我們調查局來做這個特殊查核那可不可以但是我們就沒有任何的法律意義我記得你當時你的回答是因為你們現在沒有相關的規定就說比如說我王宏威我懷疑我的助理那我覺得應該要做一下這個終審查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7406.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7429.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
所以你這個意思我不懂因為看到你的報告感覺上是要你們全部擴大到立法院包含對立法委員的忠誠查核對立法委員的助理所以你這個報告是什麼意思這個報告的意思就是我們沒有辦法擴大到立法院但是如果說立法院覺得這個部分也很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7430.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7452.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
必須要納入特殊查核的話 那立法院必須要先訂定自己內部的一個規定所以的意思說 它必須變成一個通案而不是說今天我個案 我比如說我王洪威覺得請調查局對我的辦公室同仁做忠誠查核所以它不能成為個案 而是必須要成為 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7453.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7479.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
通案要成為通案好那另外再請教在你們辦這個共諜案的時候因為比如說立法委員的助理他橫跨好幾位委員比如說你們辦聖楚音的時候你們有沒有通知他所屬的立委辦公室的立委然後告訴告訴他我們要辦他的共諜案沒有沒有完全沒有知會不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7480.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7488.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
完全沒有智慧所以同樣的半合人節的時候有沒有智慧國安會讓國安會知道這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7489.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7518.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
都沒有 所以不管總統府 國安會 或者立法委員在你們懷疑或者偵辦的過程裡面那麼你們都沒有事先告知沒有 我們調查局不會這是確定的喔 因為我們這邊確定 沒有 因為大家會質疑說為什麼他有些都可以事先他就先請離職是不是事先已經有得到封生 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7520.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7546.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
有從各種管道得到風聲 比如說聖楚音在辦你確定 完全沒有我非常確定 我非常負責任的跟委員回答那另外 對不起 再給我一點點時間我請一下我們國安局副局長 請教一個問題過去 之前的金巡局局長曾經說在台灣大概有五千名共諜在活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7547.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7575.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
但是以我們現在所抓的看起來只是非常非常的少數如果說有五千名共諜如果說我們過去其實掌握大概有五千名共諜有在活動的話那以我們現在所進行偵辦或者是調查或者起訴浮上檯面的非常非常之少所以請問一下這個五千名他到底這個數目有沒有是太碰烘還是事實上確實是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7578.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7603.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
根據我們的掌握 我們手頭上是沒有那麼多人但個人的評論 他個人的評論我們不加以置評那會不會把現有在中級人士在台失聯的這些人把他算在裡面 但是我們沒辦法去做一個所以國安局現在手上掌握 就是懷疑的數目字沒有那麼多有沒有一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7604.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7629.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
有沒有兩三千我想這個數據我不方便在這邊因為有些案件都進入到一個偵辦的一個程序啦沒有我只是說total大概你們有掌握的人數是多少這個不涉及個案這個人數我們是有掌握但是我這邊不方便在這邊來說明但是只是沒有五千名這麼多而已是是好好謝謝謝謝王委員那下一位我們請審發會委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7649.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7673.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
主席各位同仁這個我想我們今天我看今天我們等於是第二次連續我們召委連續安排第二次的這個有關於這個總統府國安會外交部的共諜滲透導致國家機敏資訊外洩提出檢討報告相關措施的這樣子的會議這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7676.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7698.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
想必是我們的召委認為這個主題非常重要所以他前一次禮拜五也排,然後這一次禮拜一又排但是我今天非常罕見當然啦,在整個過程裡面我們知道我們立法院在委員會的審查大家其實都有一個共識,就是我們盡量 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7700.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7727.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
避免就個案尤其是司法偵查中的個案的細節具體細節去做討論我們可能會針對個案的社會現象或個案的制度去討論包括我們今天主席所列的這樣子的主題他也是針對這些個案的制度面去討論這個方向這我想這是大家的共識但是我們剛才看整個國民黨的立委藍白立委他們的質詢過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7729.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7756.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
大概很多都是針對這個個案包括現在司法徵詢的這個內容這個司法偵辦的這個個案的內容來進行這個個案式的把這裡當作一個私設的刑堂做個案式的這個討論我個人是認為非常不以為然尤其是我們召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7757.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7781.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我這個過去我對我們召委也是算是尊重大家也是老朋友那我就特別我想召委連續排了兩次一定認為都這個主題非常重要那結果剛才召委自己上來質詢的時間我從頭就要看看就想聽一下我們召委的高見這個從司法界出來他針對這個國家安全國安會議對於這個外交部 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7783.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7795.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
這些國家機密資料外洩的相關防護措施到底有什麼樣的看法結果所有的時間都在討論這個國民黨黨部連署罷免這個的這個違照文書這個還有個人資料法的這個犯罪偵查案件的個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7810.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7821.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
還不是個案內容還針對這個辦案過程中的一個強制執行手段裡面的一個公文這樣來質詢其實我在立法院這麼多年我很少看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7823.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7846.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
很多立委這樣子,很多立委今天不管主題是什麼反正我今天看到法務部長來,我就問法務部其他的事情我今天看到調查局來,我就問調查局其他的事情我看到司法院來就問司法院,財政部來就問今天報紙上面財政部的事情來講不管這個召委列什麼樣的主題,我就講我的但是我很少看到自己做召委自己排一個主題結果上來不講這個主題的還排兩次 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7851.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7872.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
這個我個人是認為說對於司法個案偵查中的案件的尊重我個人是抱非常大的一個遺憾我常常講說人必自重而人重之人必自武而人武之 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7874.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7903.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我們今天如果說真的召委認為說這樣子的案件非常重要那在討論過程中大家就是應該針對制度我剛剛聽很多委員都在都談都跟這個主題制度無關都是在針對個案哪一個人怎麼樣哪一個人在偵辦的過程中他怎麼樣也有啦也有委員是針對制度不是全部都我沒有一竿子打翻一條船也有委員是在針對制度的這我個人就非常的認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7905.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7926.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
所以我個人對於今天這樣子安排的主題我個人先提出我個人的一些看法因為這個主題今天也牽涉到我們司法申辦中的案件也牽涉到我們整個國家的 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7928.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7939.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我們境外的敵對勢力對台灣的嚴重滲透等等相關不屬於法務部執掌範圍的一些主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7942.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7966.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
所以我現在我也很不好意思,我先請部長上來那如果有相關主題是局長還是我們國安局等等這些不用上來,都先不用上來,如果有相關主題再上來就好因為我自己其實也不是很清楚說像這樣子的問題我們到底保安部這邊除了就 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7967.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7994.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
個案現在在偵辦中的個案這些部分有一些部分我們也不會在這裡討論之外有一些它其實是跨部會的問題其實剛剛很多委員都在講今天我們我們稍微之所以安排這樣的主題當然跟近來我們包括總統府包括國安會包括外交部甚至包括過去的立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7996.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8024.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
的一些人員這個我們在偵辦的過程中發現了這個在這些單位裡面確實有這個有這個共諜滲透的具體的證據因此我們展開偵辦那事實上這個社會大家當然是說哇這個外交部裡面也有,總統府裡面也有那這個國安會裡面也有共諜 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8025.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8038.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那其實整個社會我們這十幾二十年來整個台灣社會剛才不分藍綠白委員大家都提到中國對台灣的滲透是無所不在的無所不在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8042.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8067.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
不管是總統府,不管是立法院,不管是各政黨不管是地方縣市政府,不管是地方林里長,不管是地方的宮廟組織、林里組織甚至黑幫組織、商業組織滲透可以說是無所不在我這邊列出很多案件,我想也都不用一一講各黨也都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8069.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8070.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
國民黨過去也有被起訴的民眾黨也有發言人收受中共執行參與選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8087.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8095.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
但是不一樣的是我們關心制度上面制度上面如何來防制境外敵對勢力對我們台灣各個層面的滲透 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8101.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8131.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我們發現一個案子 發現一個漏洞我們在制度上面我們就那個案子我們來偵辦同時在制度上面我們從同類的案件我們下去下去了解有沒有相類似的案子再來從制度上面我們要來防堵這就是發現這個案子而不是發現案子之後我們馬上就來這個國安會來 你要負責喔 你民進黨有 裡面發現共諜所以你民進黨叫做綠共先反過來指責被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8133.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8155.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
一發生過來指責說你們民進黨為什麼,所以你們民進黨叫做綠共那今天什麼,今天所有的宮廟這些公主都是公共這些黑幫是黑共民眾黨有發言人,所以民眾黨這個是重共 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8159.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8183.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
這種扣帽子,然後在這邊這種政治語言,我個人認為是大可不必啦在政治上,大家也都知道在玩什麼樣的把戲啦這個我列出這麼多,大家可以參考啦而且說現在民進黨這麼嚴重那我們看看過去馬英九執政的時候就沒有嗎?欸馬英九捏 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8184.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8205.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
馬英九執政的時候我們國家沒有這些案件被滲透嗎我這邊列出來的馬英九時代的他當任總統時代所發生的這些相關的國安案件有這麼多呢所以我想這個我一直很不希望說把這個立法院這樣子的質詢當作這個政論節目這樣子來談論藍綠立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8211.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8239.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
但是我認為這些事情我們大家就是要嚴肅的看待我們從制度面上面來防堵未來有可能的這個發生我們現在發生的案子我們嚴密偵辦我們要發現他們的手法我們要發現他們相關的滲透的方式與法律的制裁同時我們也從這些案件裡面去發現這樣子的模式然後我們再 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8241.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8266.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
來修補我們的制度我們的漏洞如果真的有心我們立法院自己我們就應該稍微來安排一個剛才王宏威委員有問我們立法院的助理需不需要安全查核這很好啊叫周萬來來啊安排叫立法院秘書長周萬來來報告我們國安立法院的國安立法院也沒有又沒有政風 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8269.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8288.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
然後再來現在的這個兩岸人民關係條例來修改啊我們自己立法院的這些委員到中國沒有限制說不能去但是要報備連核准都不用報備這樣子也不行再有程序委員會擋了363次什麼叫程序委員會擋363次就是不讓你討論你討論都不讓你討論不讓你排進議程 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8299.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8310.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
不要說贊成加強對立法委員附中國的這些報備程序不要說我贊成我連反對的權力都沒有因為程序委員會就把你封殺了 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8313.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8330.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
這些國家安全的相關法令的修改修法過程裡面在阻擋然後在這裡在安排這個我們要怎麼樣防堵這個國家機密資訊外洩然後要別人提出檢討報告在我看這個就是標準的雙標所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8336.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8361.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我也看到說我們現在行政院主任長他也有所宣示我希望我們法務部以及相關的單位我們按照我們政府現在目前有關這些相關防治措施的強化我們能夠積極研議能夠加強管理 以上謝謝那我們下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言待會我們先做個會議程序宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8362.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8381.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
稍後在翁委員小林詢問完畢之後 休息五分鐘謝謝主席 有請哇 兩個不來我們請仁總 仁總也不來 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8392.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8397.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
人總不來 人總先來請問你是培訓考用處處長處長有來 調查局局長也請上台 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8409.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8424.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
兩位好,我想今天這個召委這樣的安排是很有意思啦,整個國安的破口,那如何要去做一個防堵啊。那剛剛省委員在提,我也是有感而發啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8425.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8449.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
這個本來上個會期跟這個會期其實在程序委員會吳宗憲委員招委 你也是程序委員招委剛好我們封曉林委員也是招委那確實是國安法案在程序委員會裡面一次次把它給擋掉了那今天來召集這樣的一個議題其實就有一點背感讓人覺得有點感慨 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8450.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8475.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那其實國安這個不分黨派國家事其實是大家的啦那針對公務人員忠誠的查核這個部分那我想公務人員的忠誠這個查核這倒也不是什麼新的命題啦這個早在2002年的時候這個在修正公務人員任用法當中你說一般的查核裡面的國籍犯罪事態可以產生五種的法律效果任用 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8476.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8494.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
不任用免職辦理退休或值錢或撤銷這一個任用特殊查核的部分就其實是針對沒有有沒有去受過外國政府勢力的利誘跟密切接觸外患可以得到任用跟不任用這樣的一個結果可是我請任總先說明一下就是說你知道我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8499.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8515.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
社會大眾可能會產生一個疑惑的就是說你在追查 你在這套的查核的一個制度啊你們過去有什麼弊端嗎有兩千多年到現在那變成說造成現在的國安的一個破口那這個部分是不是任總先說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8517.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8542.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
跟委員報告因為就是辦法是規定是說各機關就是要去檢視一下要去提列他的特查職務然後提列特查職務之後這個職務要禁用的時候他們會函請調查局辦理特查所以剛隨委員所提示的那個弊案的部分因為因為是前端的部分人事單位是機關是函送調查局辦理特查所以這部分恐怕我們是沒有掌握到什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8543.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8550.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
其實你們到 我倒覺得任總倒也不是只有人事的這樣的一個後臺而已啦你們其實是國安的一個前哨 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8551.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8574.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
我倒是這樣認為,你像比如說4月17號行政委員會裡面講說面對境外的敵對勢力要按照公務人員的一個任用法第四條需要去做特殊的一個查核那你們人事長會後也講說會去思考是不是每一年規律查核的一個方向去進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8576.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8594.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那你還沒去做什麼制度,要怎麼補破網?行政院開完以後,兩禮拜你方案就會開出來?你以為兩禮拜這樣急救張出來,你們真的可以達到什麼防堵國安破口的一個效果嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8594.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8610.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
跟委員報告就是目前總署已經遵照院長的指示事項就是我們在研修那個特查辦法的草案包括就是剛剛委員所提到的那個查核的評次啊不是進來之後查了就沒事了那此外那個查核的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8611.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8637.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
因為查核的內容最近有一些像是相關國安法規的修正什麼的是不是查核的項目要檢視然後另外就是院長也有提示到說目前那個任用法制不是依照任用法禁用的其他類的人員 聘僱人員等等這部分要怎麼樣子的去強化那個特查的機制就是這個我總之都依照那個院長的指示在那個積極的研議處理中這個我就叫局長了局長我剛才看 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8640.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8649.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
人種這個地方的講法你說國安這個部分這其實只要有涉案或者牽扯到國安這聽起來就非常肅殺會不會有這樣的感覺尤其是這個針對的是公務人員的一個部分我們過去在強調公務人員基於是特別權力關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8659.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8683.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那當然就變成說公務人員的忠誠是一種義務那這些我都有點擔心說在這種肅殺的情況之下你們這個第一線的人會不會去嚴守這樣一個偵辦的過程的一個比例原則這個也不可不慎不可不慎以前當事人特別權力關係當事人的地位根本就不對等 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8684.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8707.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
對不對 然後你醫務也都不確定嘛還有一些特別的一個規則在我也很怕有特別的規則跑出來那變成說 連以前連徵送都不得徵送的但是經過那麼多的憲法的一個大法官會議的一個解釋出來以後台灣其實現在也都不一樣了那你怎麼樣 逐漸去落實在如果有公務人員保障法的一個修訂的時候尤其是針對這些國安事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8709.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8721.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
你們這個手勞,國民有期待,可是呢,偵辦起來又虎虎生風,然後到最後呢,常常都是一陣風,後面就沒有人去追蹤了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8724.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8748.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
這個要特別特別的謹慎今天國安災難委員也提出他們的一個擔憂啦 擔憂啦可是有犯罪 你說自己始作俑者自己犯罪完以後在那邊哇哇叫這也沒有道理啦可是呢 可是呢 確實啊司法這一線 那個界線真的也要掌握清楚啦也要掌握清楚啦所以呢 我特別啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8749.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8772.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
又要來救教的就是說你像我們這一次的修法裡面接下來可能會動用到修法的部分今天張偉排這個像總統府跟國安會到底要不要到立法院來備詢這個都是高度政治的一個爭議就是說其實在大法官會議裡面當然也有講清楚也有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8773.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8801.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
但是也未必清楚那沒有講清楚的時候 大家都會想說那憲政上有沒有慣例憲政上有慣例的 不來啦像我上禮拜的禮拜 禮拜日秘書長有憲政慣例的都不來這個沒有憲政慣例的你就哭哭白那當然有高度的政治性的一個爭議的時候在立法院裡面本來就是會攻防就是會攻防可是呢 我擔心到一點是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8802.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8828.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
立法院 國安破口的部分 你去把它看立法院那立法院裡面 我們都很擔心各個地方都會不會形成一個破口以現在來看的話 立法院的助理的部分根本就不屬於你們這個特殊插核的你們現在 我看起來你們一共有幾項咧不在那個正面表列你們正面表列都中幾項 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8834.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8857.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那你就沒有去涵蓋到立法院這個部分那立法院有這些助理其實都要接收到一些國家的一個機密那其實他是有機會的那有沒有可能 你們有沒有什麼樣的一個建議啦你要說叫立法院來率先治律 那不可能啦立法院就只會管別人而已 立法院要怎麼管自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8859.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8877.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
啊 立法院有時候又沒人要死啊 委會又比較笨大咧你叫這些立法院的助理辦公室自己去弄出一個法案然後說 我把這個1328項職務裡面把立法院的國會助理全部把他給納進去這我有時候覺得這有點違背人性你們有沒有什麼建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8878.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8897.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我們就是建議 我們還是完全都尊重立法院國安不能講尊重 國安不能講尊重我說你真正的想法 你真正的想法是一個拿出來講嘛我們當然是希望立法院能夠制定一個特查的一個辦法讓我們能夠有一個依循的一個特查的一個依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8900.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8908.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
這個會去 大家在說跌啦 國民黨就覺得他跟中國比較好 他就開始跟民進黨說 你也跌 你也共 你也綠共這個當然是胡說八道啦 但問題就是說 國會裡面 你去把它看這一些產生國安破口的 他不會分黨派 他不會分黨派 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8920.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8923.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
民進黨執政 最好是在你民進黨旁邊在國會裡面 國會助理 或者政府部門裡面把你放進他們想要的這些情報人員我們就稱之為蝶了嘛對岸的境外勢力 中國對我們的影響是最大的嘛可是重點就是說 任何人執政的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8940.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8954.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
他都會被安插的一個對象所以如果要把它定性成說這個叫諜的話那也可以叫共的話那也可以就是老共對我們就是太糟糕太有這個敵意嘛但問題是你去把它看為什麼會講出說在國會裡面這個不會分黨派我記憶最深刻的就是說你看這 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8964.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8979.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
當年協助駭客進入健保系統要去竊取蔡英文總統的 前總統的病歷判十當嘛齁陳偉仁那個啊那也一樣啦那是以前國民黨的立委辦公室裡面所以這個就可以證明就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8980.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8999.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
這些所謂的諜啊 大家很討厭的要來企圖來影響台灣的一個國安的他不會去分黨派所以局長你剛提到的是說這樣的一個漏洞你也建議立法院自己本身來啟動修法是這樣子嗎是是國安局要來 國安局來 國安局來 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9001.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9016.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
反正這對你也很重要這其實都國安的 我也不可以讓你自己一直在那裡喝茶你看這個你目前什麼完成對中央 五院 還有這個信義機構裡面沒有納入安全查核制度人員的風險去做盤點 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9021.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9039.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
我想這個是其他部會或者院裡面層級需要去做一個盤點只要有接觸到機敏資料的這些人我們建議在法制面建制完整要做一個查核這樣才能補上國安的一個漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9039.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9061.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
你就不敢大膽說 人家調查局長剛才就很敢說的說你立法院當然建議你去修法 把人家給堵起來啊專業在這裡說都沒關係啦 專業在這裡說都沒關係啦各黨我相信有時候只是政治攻防而已你真正講到核心問題的時候 大家還是要對你們要有尊重啦所以就是說調查局這樣也認為 國安局這邊其實你們也認為國會這一塊其實還是要鼓破王嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9065.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9093.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
是不是這樣說應該是要把它補起來啦是嘛 所以你也緊錄他 你也緊錄他所以啦 人總我要再追問的就是說那你現在現行高風險職務你欠缺這樣的一個查核制度你是不是只針對公務人員任用法的適用對象或者立法院助理因為身份沒有納入有沒有可能改依職務涉密的程度來劃分標準而非用身份來做區分 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9096.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9117.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這跟委員報告,就是植物涉密程度的部分,目前初步的想法,但是還要跟各機關會商,可能會在請各機關提列的時候,用教室性的文字,就是請他們要按照院長的指示,就是說要按照那個揭密的程度,來去提列那個特查的植物。但是你推到我這裡,你也是沒辦法,你這樣說也是沒辦法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9120.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9147.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
跟委員報告那個院外的部分如果是工人任用法規禁用的那當然是用特查辦法沒有問題那至於其他的人員因為就是就像剛剛其他部會所講就尊重那個立法院用人機關你們當然會講尊重啦但是我必須要再次的提醒啦國會它不應該是國安的一個死角啦也更不能成為制度漏洞的一個庇護所啦你說面對無所不在這種滲透跟威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9148.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9177.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
任何地方都不應該有特權啦!是不是這樣說?頂頭嘛!局長應該是嘛!官員也應該是嘛!所以這個部分其實還是要想辦法要提出你們的一個比較比較敏感、因為重要的大膽的去做一個建言啦!這國家大家的啦!這國家大家的啦!現在的台灣呢民主台灣跟過去那種威權的台灣不一樣啦!做官員大家可以做多久? |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9179.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9196.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
國會議員也不能說做多久 言所當然嘛不是這樣說 制度有缺漏 你本來就是要趕快去做一個補強啦好 謝謝好 謝謝 那下一位我們請翁曉林委員發言那翁曉林委員發言完畢之後休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9208.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9215.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
主席好 在這邊先有請調查局陳局長還有國安局的副局長然後等會再請行政總署的處長先這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9236.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9253.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我想今天這個召委又召開要檢討在總統府國安會外交部等等有發生共諜滲透的案件那麼相關法制的檢討那麼很遺憾的就是國安會 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9255.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9270.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
秘書長再一次拒絕出席到司法法治委員會裡面來接受監督備詢那麼我想依照國安會組織法的規定第八條國安會組織法第八條的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9271.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9287.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
國家安全會議及其所屬國家安全局應受立法院的監督國家安全局的組織另以法律定之我想這是非常清楚的所以請教副局長您認為在第八條裡面的規定國安會到底受不受到立法院的監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9289.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9313.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
只要有法治的規範當然就是要受到立法院的監督所以國安會議的吳釗燮秘書長今天他已經屢次拒絕來立法院接受備詢您認為他這樣的行為可取嗎我想這個是我們不介意評論我們尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9315.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9329.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
但是基本上這是法條清清楚楚規定在那裡嘛就是第八條的規定國安會議及所屬國家安全局應受立法院的監督我再三的重申這條規定是現行的規定國安會議的秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9331.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9358.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
沒有任何的理由可以不來司法院可以不來我們立法院的司法法治委員會接受備詢所以呢他已經一而再再而三的拒絕去履行他法律上的義務這個基本上是已經是違法了這個監察院都應該要進行調查好那接下來呢我要這個詢問的就是這一次在 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9360.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9384.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
再次發生這個在總統府就是這個大家可以看這個關係圖那麼這次我們看到國安會的秘書長吳釗燮他的之前的這個助理還有像前立法院的院長立委以及這個立委許智傑等等他們的這個助理都涉及到有洩露國家機密那麼可能就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9386.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9392.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
潛藏在我們總統府裡面的一些間諜那麼針對這個問題我想當然現在檢調單位已經開始偵辦可是長官有沒有責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9405.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9419.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
請問國安局副局長我想這個案件的偵辦中涉及到偵查不公開的法治規範那到底是剛剛所詢的部分我們沒有評論 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9421.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9442.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那麼請問調查局針對這個案子現在偵辦的情況除了就這個所列的像何仁傑等等這些所謂的助理們之外有針對他們的長官過去他們曾經服務過的長官有進行調查嗎現在目前案件都還在偵查中我無法在這邊跟委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9445.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9470.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
看起來就是你們基本上只是打蒼蠅不打老虎事實上像這種洩露國家機密的這種案件不可能說只有助理自己做長官竟然這麼多年都沒有發現都沒有察覺我個人是感到非常的不可思議我認為說其實檢調單位也應該要好好的去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9474.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9479.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
督導他們的長官是不是也是其中的共犯那麼在這邊我要再問一個問題剛剛審發會委員說 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9488.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9504.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我們在講到馬英九時代到底有沒有發生過在總統府內而且是掌管國安最高的首長他的親信曾經是有像現在這樣的間諜的情況在馬英九時代有過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9509.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9526.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
包委員這個可能要再查一下過往的一些案件的資料應該是沒有在馬英九時代有哪個國安會的秘書長然後曾經有發生過這樣的案子是說他的這個曾經他的這個助理是共諜 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9528.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9544.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
沒有吧至少新聞還有你們現在剪掉的紀錄應該是沒有這樣子的案子吧很多案件因為是機密的他其實在偵查跟審理這麼多年了都還是機密中間其實都沒有公開是來了我們再請那個司法院的這個刑事廳廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9548.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9573.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
在蔡英文政府執政的期間大修國安五法然後增修了上數百條的條文可是事實上從今天司法院的報告裡面我們可以知道真的違反國安法的案件大概有多少件我剛剛有報告曾經有處理過的曾經處理過我們在現在有對判決的案件大概十幾二十件吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9575.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9596.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
超過 超過 就23件嘛 如果按照你的報告裡面最多就是23件嘛對 是 那個是在最高法院的部分是 由此可見 雖然我們現在的國安武法修了這麼多的條文但是真的可能會違反國安武法的案件數其實非常少 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9597.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9621.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
如果從這個角度來看到底是法律的問題還是執法的問題還是說是根本檢調單位你抓匪諜抓不利啊就是你沒有好好的這個也沒有能力或者是也沒有認真的去抓這些共諜所以本行的看法是認為說這樣子我們現在的國安無法其實已經立法相當嚴格了 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9622.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9628.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
如果說再要加鹽有它的必要性嗎 有它的實益嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9630.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9656.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
這部分我可能就不評論了因為有關案件的多廣那才涉及到第一線偵辦人員對個案的處理了解 當然這個本席是要談就是說其實對於現在民進黨政府不斷的要再加嚴修法不管是兩岸人民關係條例或是國家安全法以及其他的相關的法規本席認為說基本上沒有那個實意 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9658.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9679.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
因為我們的法律已經定得很清楚了只是說執法上面的問題檢調到底有沒有好好的去真的去抓到這些可能洩漏國家機密的人跟法律本身的良善基本上是無關那麼我現在接下來要談的就是說事實上在這一次我們看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9680.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9697.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
大家的這個關心的焦點就在於說對於特殊查核辦法理念到底現在有哪一些人那麼他們是要接受特殊查核的那麼事實上特殊查核辦法的它的母法是什麼請任總 要不要請調查局這邊 國安 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9705.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9728.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
公務人員任用法那公務人員任用法主要規範對象是?公務人員所以他可以現在進一步的透過修法去規範所謂的約聘僱人員嗎?所以這個部分其實能夠有完整的法制是會比較完善 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9729.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9753.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
沒錯這就是我在講的我基本上我也認為說應該要在擴大特殊查核的範圍但是我們還是必須要符合法律的規定嘛不能夠違反法律優惠原則明明我們現在的特殊查核辦法裡面它的母法就是公務人員任用法而這個公務人員他是指的是狹義的公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9755.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9779.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
他並不是指的是像刑法上廣義的公務員所以你現在你要修這個特殊查核辦法然後來去規範所有的機要、約聘、公務、幕僚、人員等等這個基本上是違反法律的原則的這樣的做法是不對的我想請那個法務部部長 請鄭部長您對這個議題的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9786.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9804.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
這個要涉及到這個是一個自願性的一個行政院是就行政級首屬機關構來做一個做擴大特殊查核的一個範圍所以您的意思是說現在又是透過行政指導的方式然後呢請大家自己去申報去填嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9806.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9832.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
就像是請這個落委會要求各個部會這個下令所有的公教人員都要填據結書的意思是一樣嗎他其實沒有法源依據但是透過行政指導或是其他的這個行政措施然後要求大家一定要填那委員都關心這個議題那不然是不是可以請我們來考試院來做一個推動的一個修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9833.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9847.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
考試院還有人事總署修這個辦法也跟人種有關是嗎這是考試院的主管考試院主管那考試院你們的看法咧可以透過修辦法來擴大對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9850.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9879.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
約聘過人員的管理嗎委員好 我是選區部法規司雷司長那這部分跟委員報告因為任用法如同剛剛委員您提到的它規範的是公務人員啦那就它授權的特查辦法現在目前的規範對象也是公務人員必須要受特殊查核那麼行政院它現在正在檢討這個針對非公務人員任用的部分要怎麼樣來處理那我們會根據行政院它最後檢討的結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9880.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9899.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我們再以共同來研議看看需要再怎麼樣在法治上免於不足是的我這邊要提醒行政院如果現在要檢討的話可能要去看我們在我們的國家機密保護法理念或者是其他的相關法規有沒有適合的法源依據而不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9900.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9928.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
透過現代公務人員任用法裡面的他這個所授權制定的特殊查核辦法裡面去規定因為這完全不符合法的體系更何況本席認為其實最應該規範的就是在行政院還有總統府國安會等等這些重要的政務人員我看了這個相關的這個特殊查核這個一覽表裡面這當然因為主要是針對公務人員所有所有的重要的首長都不在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9930.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9952.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
然後規範都是秘書啦 或是什麼檢任職的這些事務官但是具有最核心掌握到那個國家機密的 像國安會秘書長 外交部部長 國安局局長就不在這個受到要去特殊查核的範圍裡面所以由此可知 這個整個法律的體系是出了很大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9954.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9973.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
如果說你掌握這麼重要國家機密的首長都可以不受特殊查核的這個相關的這個這樣子的條件的這個拘束的話那麼你更不用說他的這些助理們好那麼總之就是本行認為說其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9976.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9997.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
就現在你們要辦理的這個特查對象的範圍還是要回到原來我們的法律是怎麼規定的那麼如果說你們要擴大辦理你們有能力嗎如果說行政院硬是要你們之後你們現在是特殊查核是多少一千三百多人是不是請那個調查局 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9998.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10024.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
目前表列是1328那未來如果說看到你們上面講說這個可能會增加到兩三千人甚至還如果要把立法院當成這個提列辦理特查對象要高達6300多人你們調查局有這樣的人力物力嗎目前沒有 必須要增加人力還有預算你們這個調查的項目說實在話我也不知道你們是不是真的有能力去查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10025.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10047.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
看起來都是自願申報啊如果說有犯罪記錄這是很清楚的包委員他其實是兩個層次第一個就是說受查核的人他必須要自己誠實的去申報他必須要簽名然後針對受查的人他申報的這個內容他機關才會喊給我們調查局來做複查的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10048.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10063.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
好 因為像有沒有犯罪記錄這個是一定要都知道就像我們就辦良民證一樣嘛 對不對那有沒有什麼定期去探討或是他的這個血親這個陰親是不是曾經有在大陸地區這都屬於自動申報但是他自動申報他說沒有你們還有能力去查核嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10066.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10082.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
就沒有辦法嘛簡單來說是這樣而且我還要再強調一件事情你們特殊查核依照現在法律的規定是在任用之前就要進行查核可是如果說他已經任用了在他的就任的時間裡面你們有辦理定期查核嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10082.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10106.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
目前的法規是沒有 目前法規是派任 出任 派任 還有調任這三個狀況的時候必須得 機關得 函請調查局做這個特殊查核那現在未來的檢討修改的方向就是說 希望就是說這個職位如果他在那邊待了很久那看是要一年或兩年或三年 我們必須要再重新做一次查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10107.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10125.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
所以我認為這個反而是你們先要做的不是只有在派任之前或是新任之前做查核而是未來要強化的是定期查核每一年或一年半兩年你至少要重新review一次我們現在是朝這個方向當然政務人員的部分尤其是掌握國家安全和重要機密的這些政務人員首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10136.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10163.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
一定要列入查核那我的看法是說你們去看看嘛國家機密法或是相關其他的情報工作法裡面應該也都有法源依據可以去規範現在行政院也是朝這個方向在指示在規劃謝謝委員支持OK那我這次我基本上我的看法不要再回到我們剛剛講公務人員任用法裡面去找那個不適合的法源依據以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10168.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10174.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
好 謝謝 那我們依據先前的宣告 我們休息五分鐘那五分鐘之後由吳斯耀委員進行詢問 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10195.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10197.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
哈哈哈哈 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10219.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10219.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我還好 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10259.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10272.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
鸡蛋 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10277.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10278.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
哈哈哈哈哈哈 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10683.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10709.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
好謝謝那我們繼續開會嚇我一跳我想說你不在我要先繼續休息好那我們下一位請吳思瑤委員發言謝謝主席有請政部長陳局長麻煩政部長國安局黃副局長副局長可能詮釋部等一下輪到您自己主動上來回答好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10712.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10741.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
每個會期都是國安會期因應中國的滲透無所不在無孔不入所以我已經多次說每個會期都是國安會期而保密防諜人人有責no one is outsider今天我針對這個主題第二次part2來就教於各位了下一頁當然大家都非常關心共諜所以在立法院各個委員會的專案報告專題報告非常多 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10742.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10759.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
已經三次了這兩週我們司法法制中線招委也排了兩次那國防委員會也排了一次但我要說呢打共諜其實我們要的是什麼不是一再的把官員叫來這裡問話質詢我們要的是行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10764.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10789.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
立法院的行動是什麼就是著手去完治國安的法治健全就是要修國安法案你們都同意嗎否則每一次專案報告專案報告無限多的專案報告後來還是回到一個要修法不是嗎所以我希望我們下一次針對這個主題是可以具體明確的就修法的部分來做闡述下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10791.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10810.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
但是修法的部分非常遺憾最最最最低階最簡單最可行最無害的其實就是兩岸人民關係條例跟港澳關係條例裡頭立委附中的登載這真的是最可行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10811.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10838.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
最簡便啦可是呢民進黨團的提案已經被擋了363次更不要講民進黨團已經提出國安實法的修法如果連最簡單最低門檻的附中登載在野黨都還要擋的話我不曉得國安的法案怎麼能夠走得下去下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10839.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10856.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我不是危言聳聽喔上週內政委員會民進黨的召委張宏祿具體的排審了國家安全法國安法的九個版本目前為止都是民進黨的立委提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10857.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10873.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
所以大家口口聲聲都要國安都要防止共諜滲透可是在國安法的修法重中之重的國安法只有民進黨九位委員為了要期待行政院的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10874.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10901.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
甚至那天在內政委員會我非常不解喔我還聽到在野黨的委員說未來要設國安的專業法庭呢這是一個綠色恐怖這是在搞戒嚴這完全是錯誤的理解這是汙名化吧我問一下政部長喔我看到一個數據好像從2016到2023年我們對於國安相關的法院判刑的平均刑度是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10905.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10923.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
大概是六個月了所以我們在內政委員會審查的時候認為為什麼國安專業的法庭有其必要是因為要讓我們的檢警調有足夠充分的專業跟武器這就是為什麼要修國安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10924.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10945.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
可是在野黨的委員把他汙名化醜化為就是在搞戒嚴我們是在對抗中國耶所以要修國安法我希望下一次審查的時候有在野黨委員的版本我們才能夠真正的應驗在野黨的委員是關心國安的下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10947.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10972.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
而共諜的無所不在今天我看到國安局的五個面向的一個訊息的反饋跟彙整這對應於我上週質詢法務部的時候法務部所列舉的有科技掏空、借選滲透、發展組織利用軍人然後最新的有滲透黑幫、滲透國會等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10973.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10993.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
而對應於國安局副局長這邊今天你們的五大面向我想特別問一下你們的第一點就是發展武裝內應啊而且要設立政權接管中央委員會非常的駭人聽聞甚至要組成組集隊就你們的報告裡頭講的是要吸收軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10994.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11020.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
但我要對應於上週四我站在這個地方我也提出我的詢問滲透黑幫是上週的媒體最新的爆料也就是說買通了黑幫在平時滋擾台灣的社會但是在戰時他們也會利用黑幫成為一個軍火的阻擊單位所以說滲透黑幫跟你們今天的發展武裝內應是不是有相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11021.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11039.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
是跟委員報告這是我們經過國安團隊的一個情搜裡面彙整出來的一個他的一個手法的其中要項之一這也是跟黑幫有絕對的關聯性所以我是要指證你們因為我看到你們的報告寫的武裝內應好像只有講到軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11041.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11065.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
對不對 事實上黑幫是有而且也是重要的一個滲透的管道嘛我想那這樣我們的理解就更全面也更正確了好 謝謝 下一頁共諜在國會喔其實是不分黨派都有我要再一次的來闢謠在野黨的委員一直在說全部都是綠營才有共諜是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11067.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11086.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
你們哪一位可以很簡要的回答一下這段時間在共諜事件在國會有多少個案子啊是不是各黨都有啊好幾個案子都已經是被判很清楚是有刑責的部長你可以簡要回應嗎在共諜在國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11089.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11117.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
這就是一個很簡單就講事實嘛各黨都有嘛這個委員有提供資料非常清楚嘛我這裡整理出來的五個案子三個案子是國民黨一個案子是民眾黨一個案子是民進黨而民進黨是高規格的第一時間移送查辦開除我們是最嚴格的在自我的提防跟要求反觀在野黨只會造謠 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11118.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11136.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
他們有這樣子的具體的行動嗎更何況在野黨的委員的助理們滲透國會被中共買通都是具體被判刑的這是事實俱在啊所以說國會有沒有內控的機制 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11138.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11164.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
公部門現在有一般查核跟特殊查核是調查局的業務目前在國會並沒有任何查核跟拒絕的機制拒絕應該是全序部在做的那我剛剛也利用之前我聽的片段因為我還有另外的會議好像調查局陳局長有說到下一頁您建議或者是鼓勵或是尊重立法院是不是要訂定自己的特查辦法是 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11166.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11181.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
但如果立法院定了 那是誰來執行定了以後就我們調查局來執行還是嗎你們只有兩個人力目前是只有兩個專責人力我整理出來的對應於你們今天的報告目前已經進行了特查的職位是1328個 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11184.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11212.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
然後你們研議要擴大因為現在我們要把網做大 把網做得更密要增加一千零八位 對不對只要涉密不是只等而來分 是它涉密的這個機會而且要強化增加它的查核的頻率 我都支持所以增加下來是要查核的對象有兩千三百三十六個我就問您喔兩千三百三十六個擴大 即便是擴大特查有沒有包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11213.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11239.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
當然不會包含立法院的立委我們不是公務人員嘛也不會包含國會助理因為他們不是公務人員任用法的適用的對象但是國會的職員工有沒有在裡面如果是依照公務人員任用法國會的秘書長法治局長好 那如果議事處長或是我們所有的這個對不起 有領這個公務人員任用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11240.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11264.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
有沒有在我們的特查辦法不管是before或是after有沒有納在裡面目前這1328都沒有含立法院因為他們也是公務員啊所以要納入嘛所以你們增加的1008位未來查核要增加到2336個裡面是不是應當要包含立法院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11265.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11282.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
領公務員 是的 應該是的 最多 非常多所以你們的2336個 就我的理解 目前沒有納入耶要納入 必須納入 國安不能缺一角 漏洞不能在國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11284.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11310.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
但是如果要擴大反而你們說如果要納入國會助理這個是另外一個事情國會助理不是領公務人員的薪水就說不是公務人員擁有法規範的對象所以你們有一個6300個的這個數字是有問題的耶因為國會助理不應當是你們現在現行法規裡有可以特查的對象除非我們自己設一個特查辦法對不對除非但是這個有很多的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11312.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11331.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
所以說尊重立法院要不要訂特查辦法但未來執行還是調查局人力物力足不足夠這需要思考第二現在的法治裡頭特查辦法應當擴大到立法院的職員工就應當依循應當要納入至於後續你們只有兩個人力啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11332.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11341.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
希望未來審查年度預算的時候 預算不會再被為難否則要求你們做更多 做更好預算員不給你們 經費不給你們怎麼防共諜 怎麼打擊國安啊下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11347.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11371.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我很快的說民進黨團會先行民進黨團我們已經針對附中登載的部分我們黨團有高度的共識我們會主動用我們黨團的內規因為在立法院推不動兩岸人民關係條例要立法要修法推不動被擋了363次民進黨團我們會優先針對民進黨團所有的立委跟助理我們會用 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11372.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11384.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
拒絕的方式我們希望要求主動揭露附中的資訊以達到事前報備事後報告民進黨團先行我們要凸顯這個國會指揮黨國安法案連附中登載這麼輕易能做的事情都不願意做好我最後花一點點時間來下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11400.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11414.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
今天我要今天的议程里头我特别要跟主席做一下报告上周韩国瑜院长用一个韩文在院会宣告说来援引宪法67条跟大法官释字461号 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11415.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11432.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那特別為我們的立法院秘書長來請了一個永久的免死金牌我認為立法院如果不落實自我的克責強化立法院的自我的治理的話我們沒有資格去要求別人今天的會議下一頁下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11435.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11453.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
下一頁我都跳過就國安會也好就總統府的秘書長也好我就引用同樣韓國瑜院長週五院會的宣告同樣用憲法六十七條跟大法官四六一號只要是司法監察 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11454.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11475.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
以及考試院的秘書長都不移到立法院 這是憲政慣例馬英九這樣說過 王金平前院長這樣說過我就用韓國瑜院長同樣的一個式字來講那為什麼我們的召委一再的要求別人 這已經違反大法官解釋喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11476.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11503.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
下一頁金普聰擔任國安會秘書長的時候他也說除了預算案跟法律案國安會到立法院被詢是破壞憲政體制這也是回歸4461號的解釋換言之4461號告訴我們除了法律案跟預算案其他的不應當邀請國安會秘書長總統府秘書長來到立法院但是我回到前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11506.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11525.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
立法院的部分前面因為我們要國會自律跟自我克責我們不在大法官釋字461號所說的三院當中所以大法官並沒有說立法院的秘書長不應當來備詢我看最後一頁那個表格前一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11526.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11548.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
國安會到國會備詢的記錄都以預算跟法律相關議案為主以王金平院長從第五屆到第七屆邀請的次數這麼多次缺席的次數也很多 為什麼因為當初的國安會就用憲法的主張除了預算案跟法律案秘書長是不需要來備詢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11549.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11573.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
如果回到憲法這就是過去國民黨作為國會龍頭的時候也是這樣來做但是現在似乎立法院的規則亂了套只有立法院的秘書長可以說不來就不來只有立法院的韓國瑜院長可以一再的曲解憲法的精神跟扭曲大法官釋字的精神然後要求別人放過自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11574.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11595.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我認為國會的自律跟國會的克責我們在探討非常多立法院對於秘書長國會簽件的事務也好我們立法院要防共諜這些剛剛講立法院要自己定查核辦法立法院的特查辦法如果秘書長不來備詢請問我們跟誰討論立法院的特查辦法怎麼定 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11597.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11616.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
所以說不要言以律己寬以待人我對於大家奉公守法我們繼續努力防共連滲透精進完治所有的法治作業後續民進黨團的所有的國安法案大家一起繼續努力好 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員那下一位我們請張祺凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11639.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11651.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
請鎮部長叫陳局長麻煩鎮部長陳局長委員好剛才吳思堯委員一直在說我們這次是國安會期嘛國安會期最近民進黨的這個共諜案連環報敵人就在本能寺啊那吳思堯講得這麼重要保證叫囚定 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11669.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11693.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
你們有沒有像在辦那個連署案一樣有沒有去大搜索 大搜押共諜案應該比 佛定共諜案跟這個死人連署哪一個比較重 罪哪一個比較重都很重要的案件都很重要 行者差很多嘛 對不對共諜案如果涉國安法 歸你共諜案 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11699.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11714.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
七年 七年對不對 如果是發展組織 七年以上啊 七年以上 對啊課長文書勒 課長是五年以下一個重罪一個輕罪啊 你們有辦嗎你們有共諜案連環報報這麼多話 這麼簡單我問你你們有傳訊游錫坤 有傳訊吳釗燮有傳釋 傳訊你與諜嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11726.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11752.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
你們有去大搜索嗎?有去那邊加或者是總統府、國安局、國安會或者是外交部有押嗎?有押任何一個人嗎?偵查不公開,我跟委員報告反正這是個案的問題,我沒辦法去做一個回答這麼多就是通案的,不是一個案喔!現在不是有羈押的,羈押的不少人了嗎?有羈押的,像吳尚宇等的,有被羈押了嗎?那這些老闆還有住所,沒有一個有被傳嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11754.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11768.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
這個我沒辦法去回答這個問題完全這個這個案件依照案件的一個證據收證的程度我相信檢察官他會做整個一個案件的一個偵查這個計畫所以我沒辦法幫你回答這個問題你很負責任的講好啦吳釗燮好了我沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11770.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11791.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
吳釗燮涉及的 來 來 等一下有沒有去他家裡搜索過 等一下有沒有去外交部搜索過我沒辦法去干涉指揮檢察官去要搜索哪個地點 要搜索哪個對象那這是一個個案的一個問題這麼多就是一個通案喔 而且你現在在這不是通案啦 這是個案啦五個 我問你這五個 我問你 來來 保定來 我問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11792.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11812.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
那五個案五個案子你有任何去搜索任何人的這涉案的這些人的家裡我想這個檢察認為案件有必要的話而且不是檢察說哪一個就說哪一個法院還要再法官還要再審核嘛那我想這個大家都已經大家都清楚的事情嘛這個也不是我檢我當部長我沒辦法去 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11813.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11835.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
去指示檢查說你要收哪一個哪一個你要辦哪一個我沒辦法去干涉介入指導的個案的一個偵辦嘛但是我想說共諜案當然我們要嚴辦這是一個通案但是我們講是哪個個案你要辦到誰對啊你嚴辦你看這些相關的人都在外面趴趴走啊也沒有看到你辦啊還有嚴辦的話不然我們怎麼會收押呢這個不認為積壓的必須要就收押了嘛你看國民黨這樣罵髒話罵髒話一關一關一關起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11839.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11847.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
結果你看這些人有辦嗎 民眾會有判斷的啦 為什麼會出現 辦男不辦女 辦小不辦大市委議長有24萬人上街頭 你知道他們在抗議什麼抗議的訴求 主要訴求是什麼 20萬人上了街頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11864.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11891.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
那天主要的抗議的訴求是什麼?人民為什麼怒火?我相信上場都有他自己的想法啦這個訴求每個...你知道嗎?你知道嗎?你都不重視民意嗎?有不同的訴求我沒有去做這樣的特別去研究這些那一天主要啊反對獨裁的最重要那一天最熱的就是司法不公啦我給你看民調不是只有人民用腳這個表態那麼多人出來怒火看看最新民調 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11894.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11907.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
57.9%的民眾認為政治力介入了檢調機關的辦案57.6%認為政治力介入了司法案件59.3%認為政府譴責性辦案 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11911.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11927.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
所以委員你也不要叫我說要去叫起來辦哪一個人啦我認為這個就不是吧你看了我們就覺得很沒有面子柏定你看了這三個民調你就是叫我說你要辦哪一個辦哪一個辦哪一個我認為這個是我沒有叫你辦哪一個我叫你通案 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11928.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11943.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
你在辦這個死人連署的時候你這麼大力 你在大搜手大搜押我這邊沒有看到你該有的動作這兩個都是通 兩個這麼多這麼多案子啊不要保證我現在問你啦不是給他二十五萬人上街啦你看到這三個民調你覺得臉上很無光嗎愧對你的職責嗎你是發不保證欸這民調你不覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11955.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11983.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
檢調那麼辛苦在捍衛我們人權跟法治給個人民一下對你們的觀感是這樣子你說委員檢調可以我部長怎麼去介入呢不是介入你領導你當法務部長你看到這個沒有難過嗎你沒有做一些改革嗎沒有反省嗎那你認為是檢調就要偵辦這些犯罪難道是還要再分不同的這些這個可以辦那個不應該辦他沒有這種事情反正有涉及犯罪都該要辦嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11988.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12002.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
59.3%認為你正譜就是選擇性辦案這個民調是當然可以檢討啦這美麗島電子報啊這兩個禮拜最熱門的新聞耶最重要是你到底從裡面得到一些反省跟檢討什麼叫做選擇性辦案 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12006.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12018.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
我們沒有選擇性辦案 凡是有涉及犯罪性...人民就是這樣認為嘛 對不對那這個問題記不具體政治力有沒有介入檢調機關辦案這個題目還不夠清楚嗎好 來 我們繼續來談一個你這段時間在辦的啊死亡連署我怎麼說 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12032.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12060.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
跟這個共諜案比起來一個大一個小第二個來看一段話這是以前做法官的時候的李進勇現在中選會主委李進勇說的他說啦雖然我有偽造文書但是你們不要擔心因為沒有實質傷害所以我不會有罪這個就是這段時間你們在大搜手在大搜押這些往生者幽靈靈屬的時候很多人在提醒你的大炮打學長輕罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12063.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12064.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
你看李靖遠為什麼這樣講李靖遠為什麼這樣講他沒產生什麼實質上的傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12074.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12097.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
這個死亡連署的這種 就像我講說死人不會從你爬出來再做一個連署啦那我是認為啦 我認為環自由社體犯罪就該辦所以大院的委員該辦是不是有個比例原則 法治國基本的比例原則是不是被你破壞了這嚴重違反 違反侵蝕民主政治的基石所以這個要原辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12098.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12113.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
我想這個大院委員都是有志一統就是把那個那個那個...你是發布法定啦講法不要破壞法治沒別人來來來補定我問你一下你現在用的是第200刑法...委員你的意思是叫我不要再去叫檢查說圍繞文書都不要辦嗎是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12114.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12141.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
你一直所有犯罪都辦啊可是你大小總有分啊現在人民為什麼有那麼多說你是選擇性辦案你共諜案也不辦大的案子不辦共諜怎麼辦如果沒有不辦那怎麼可能會被收押呢而且辦案都不分黨派嘛你一直繞在那個繞在那幾個五個案子對不對押了四個人一個人二十萬交保出去人民在笑你們的人民在笑我們的司法是共諜案啊比這個幽靈林署還要輕欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12144.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12153.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
更重要來 萬孟寧 你是 萬孟寧你用刑法第210條 偽造文書版嘛 對不對他的要件是什麼偽造文書要成立的要件是什麼偽造編造他人之私生什麼 損害於什麼損害於公眾跟個人好 那請問 請問剛才 李進勇想要說你再看一次李進勇講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12174.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12197.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
他偽造文書,他沒有私...你不要拿李靜雄,李部長,李委員,那個主委,他當時這個背景我不清楚這1985年,你說1985年4月的一個發言,我不曉得是哪個個案,這個我不清楚要去把李靜雄抓回來關是不是?大搜搜他,大搜押他嗎?這我沒有辦法對一個我不清楚的個案表示任何意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12199.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12202.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
如果就他用的這個刑法第210條要損害於公眾跟個人嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12206.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12225.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那你連署你的互義證如果連署沒有損害公眾跟他人嗎這個嚴重影響 嚴重侵蝕民主政治的基石真的選舉可以去用作票做假嗎我想全民是沒辦法去接受的先不要講輕罪跟重罪來來來 我問你一個重點來來來你的連署要不要經過互義證系統的這個檢核會不會塞掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12236.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12247.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
你連署完之後包括罷免吳思瑤的這些人他第一個拿到送到中選會要做什麼違照文書本來就是集成犯了嘛你只要違照他們的署押這個當然就是發生損害了嘛你的護意證系統會剔除掉嘛對不對有損害嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12256.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12278.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
怎麼會沒損害 假冒假冒了你的名字去 我想這個孫損害這個事只要圍繞他人的鼠丫一層就是會出生損害啦連部長你問一下幕僚亂講法律怎麼這樣規定的你自身損害他的那個你問一下幕僚這樣會不好意思會讓人家笑話 張偉不要打插話不是 我怕部長讓人家笑話啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12279.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12292.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
副長在這邊是全民直播喔 全民都在看喔我剛剛跟你講第一個我拿了李靖榮的案例給你看第二個我是就法論法跟你講刑法第210條更重要的我們的中選會我們的護意證系統是要篩選的你如果有死人連署篩選就剔除了嘛對不對有對連署發生影響嗎這個案子會成立嗎例如說吳斯堯那邊吳斯堯那邊的如果有死亡連署你後來會照這還有各自法的問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12308.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12312.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
什麼司法問題你救法論法你這個問題要不要去補救這個會不會是這個案本來就是我從民調還有20萬人上街頭一直跟你講到法律的這個問題連民進黨啊民進黨的人都高喊林黛嬅說政治干預了司法司法又去干預了這個初選然後呢民進黨政府下指導旗司法介入 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12340.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12359.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
班班可考虎藻斑斑 你看你如果說民進黨的辭職令說國民黨這個事情是系統性的組織犯罪是系統性的組織犯罪嗎你目前去搜索用的是什麼罪你壓人用什麼 有用系統性的組織犯罪嗎 有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12363.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12387.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
這個案件是檢查在偵辦中會涉及到其他的一個犯罪我想這個我沒辦法去就個案的隊去做一個報告你那麼多案子那是不是林丘昌講的系統性的組織犯罪我問你一個最明確的國民眾正在做直播說禮拜三啊現在搜索過台北市黨部新北市黨部台南市黨部禮拜三要去搜索大搜索國民黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12390.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12412.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
這個是一個個案有沒有看到會搜索那個地點那個檢察會申請法院來核發這是另狀主義的嘛如果說可不可以說有沒有必要性這個不是檢察說了就直接有辦法去執行的這還要經過法院的一個審的開法院開搜索票我們依照法院開的說法去做執行的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12414.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12437.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
而且司法法院本就是獨立的嘛那怎麼會司法介入呢那個政治介入呢 黨政黨介入呢所以民眾從民調裡面20萬人的上街頭吶喊還有民眾的民調的對你們的提醒跟警示你完全都沒有感覺你都沒有覺得說你們要靠這一做個檢討要去反省嗎我用一個最具體的做個總結好了包括調查局局長跟部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12440.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12456.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
那麼多的民眾說你們 選擇性辦案我聽得懂嗎 到目前為止中選會告發了他告發了國民黨跟國民黨去罷免民進黨的民進黨去罷免國民黨 對不對我聽兩百分 確定 五比零嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12457.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12486.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
你說 你說你們會證明你們不會選擇性辦案都辦啊 委員沒有注意到新聞對啦 五比零嘛 五比零的先不辦嘛不要啊 現在多少都辦了 台中的部分你可能沒有注意到新聞都辦現在幾比幾幾比幾具體我現在手上11比1啦 對不對沒有沒有民進黨現在辦了 基隆還辦哪裡不止不止不止台中兩個是不是然後基隆 你看你有收手嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12489.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12508.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
基隆你有搜索嗎不是啊 搜索是為了要保全證據對啊 像國民黨那些十幾個地方都被你搜索民進黨的沒有搜索 用約談的方式回來一兩個小時還請回所以人民才會說你譴責性辦案嘛我想具體的個案的內容我沒辦法跟你說明但是都辦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12514.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12533.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
人民的眼睛是血亮的不要輕忽不要看低台灣人民的水準已經那麼清楚公不公正人民會做判斷我已經跟你講了11比2上次5比0然後你辦國民黨是大收手大收押再這樣繼續下去我跟你講民調還會繼續再掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12535.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12564.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
你們的歷史定會出很大問題你們對尤其所有的檢調檢調人員嗎我想在這個過程裡面檢察官跟調查官都是依法依法這個來公正的執法這個我們非常非常有信心這個委員謝謝委員的思法有他的天平啦人民心中也有一把尺啦人民隨時在幫你們打分數啦希望下次你們分數可以升高我最後做一個總結啦請一起保定 決定我一直捍衛司法的正義不要再受到任何政治的干預 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12567.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12584.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
維護司法公平的這個中立不要為特定的政黨服務嚴守司法的分際不枉法不濫權人民心中有一把尺人民眼睛也是雪亮的大家都盯著你們在看期待你們去經得起考驗了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12589.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12614.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
謝謝 那我們先處理會議時間 上午會議時間持續進行到所有登記法院委員群大家結束為止部長 我要給你報告 你為什麼剛剛會插嘴因為部長剛剛講錯 因為210條的偽造文書還有217條的偽造一張英文數押它還要有一個足深屬害公眾或他人 它是構成要鑑定的部分 不是偽造就構成犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12615.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12617.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
好 謝謝主席那我先請部長 保護部長 謝謝麻煩部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12640.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12658.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
好 部長我想跟你討論一下關於人民有一個眼睛 人民有一把尺剛剛那個張啟凱委員的質詢我有一些非常非常初級的法律見解跟認識想要跟部長討論其實事實上之前到底是不是組織犯罪這件事情當然我知道你們還在偵查中我們就不針對個案去討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12660.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12670.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
但是我印象中如果沒有記錯的話呢國民黨的大佬趙少康他當時都還說抄一下也還好嘛那在高雄罷免許志杰委員那個發起人還是領銜人喔他是一個從香港移民到台灣來的一個中國人那他就說這個黨呢有義務把這個名單給黨員這樣抄然後黨員也要服從黨這個他說這個也很正常這第二個案例了第三個案例基隆 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12685.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12705.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
的張淵祥他也承認他們自己承認犯案所以依照我剛剛講這三個慣例如果我們用小學生等級的理解就是老師某某某作弊這樣然後某某某也承認說對我有作弊那身為老師我們針對這個作弊的個案去進行調查這應該是合理的所謂在法務部的見解對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12706.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12728.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
反正我們的態度就是有涉及到犯罪那就要辦了我想剛才文有提到的這些個別的事案我想檢察機關都在偵辦中我們就不針對個案討論但是我的法理的理解就是說老師班上有同學作弊同學也承認說老師我有作弊同學就趕快自己承認覺得這樣罪會輕一點可能有各種可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12730.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12747.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
所以老師就進行調查這是對的嘛這是老師應該做的事情嘛對班上其他同學應該也比較公平對不對如果我們一起再進行這個考試是是嘛我的理解是這樣那所以如果用這個理解來看呢我認為剛剛張祺凱委員有非常多質詢的內容我認為有非常大的問題第一個我也想要請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12748.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12776.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
他剛剛特別點名吳釗燮或者是游錫堃院長他們這些人好像他認為也應該要去發動大規模的搜索甚至跑去他家跟辦公室但是部長我想跟你討論我的見解是這樣這些人基本上他是被害人那除非這些被抓出來的共諜他就直接指控說他是受游院長假設他真的這樣說我是受到游院長所指使叫我去執行這個共諜任務假設我們有聽到這樣的論述我們才去做後續的動作對不對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12777.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12792.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
所以對我來說不管是吳釗燮部長或是游院長他們在這個共諜案中應該都是算不知情的被害人如果你們現在掌握證據是這樣那我們就沒有理由去對他進行大規模搜索嘛這個不合理嗎這個各位報告我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12793.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12816.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
這個我想檢察官會做一個強加的調查但是我們沒辦法去說指定你要對他說什麼你要對他查辦我想對這個我是管理那個政策跟法案的所以我沒辦法就個案表示任何意見個案是由承辦檢控再做一個處理嘛那我怎麼去知道說委員跟我講說你要辦哪一個我就說你要去辦哪一個你要去說哪一個就說哪一個這個變成是我是介入了 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12819.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12840.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
變成是由這個去介入政治力去介入到個案的一個偵辦我認為要給檢查一個純淨的一個辦案的一個空間我想我們要求檢查就是說你要嚴正公正的客觀公正的執法就是勿枉勿重反正涉及犯罪就要辦嘛那剛才就是違照文書那一部分怎麼沒有俗稱水災過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12841.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12867.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
這個雖然是學委會可以剔除 但是這個是影響到學委會對這些管理的一個正確性的一個問題嘛所以我想這個大概法律上 那是個案的話 個案正辦嘛對 沒錯 這個在您的職權上確實是這樣不過我來幫您補充一下相關的新聞部長聽一下我講的對不對吳尚宇 邱士源 然後黃曲榮 還有盛楚茵其實都已經有被收押了嘛 對不對是好 我們就不就個案來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12868.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12872.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
盛楚瑩沒有,就是吳尚宇、邱士元還有何仁杰我認為這就不是所謂的辦藍不辦綠或是辦綠不辦藍基本上就是如同剛剛張祺凱委員說的不分政黨嘛,我們該辦就辦,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12885.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12907.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
所以我想說反正涉及到共諜我們就辦嘛那我想這剛才有提到就是不分黨派然後我們就是說有裡面他僱傭的人員是那他老闆每個都要辦嗎我想這個就是要個案的做一個認定說不定他是被害人說不定他也是共犯之一嘛好那我的理解這個個案的不同嘛所以我們沒有辦法講說沒有說他聘用的人員是有共諜的話那每個難道都要辦嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12909.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12929.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
我想這個看證據吧所以我可以這麼說好不好就是案件沒有分大小其實我剛剛一直在聽張祺凱委員說這個比例原則比例原則啊這個案件分大小可是部長我很好奇就你們法務的見解案件真的可以分大小嗎案件沒有分大小啦反正涉及到犯罪就要辦嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12930.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12958.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那我想當檢察官的難道這個小號我不辦 這個單我才辦或者說我能力 我想要把子辦小號 我不辦大號我想這個案件我們檢察官沒有選擇要辦哪個案的一個特權這個案件本來就是輪分的嘛而且子分或輪分 它案件分案都有一定的一個程序嘛所以檢察官只要228條認為有告訴告發或其他行為只有犯罪先檢然後就要啟動偵辦的一個程序嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12958.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12966.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
所以再加上我剛剛舉的那些例子吳尚宇 邱氏 黃許榮這些基本上人不分藍綠啦所以我的邏輯應該是這樣如果說政治有介入的話那這個案件我想不管哪個黨派政治有介入的話那這個黨派 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12972.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12993.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
他有顧慮他就不辦這個就要辦我想沒有反正是我們是不分勿晚勿中又涉及到這些的不法的那當然都要辦嘛好那最後一個問題其實我剛聽到也是頭皮發麻這樣他說這個五年以下跟七年以下就是分七年偽造文書跟這個五年以下他認為這個是輕罪又是回到的案件不分大小可是我看刑法276過失 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12995.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13014.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
過失致死也是五年以下那難道我們要用這個邏輯就看他是重還是輕嗎所以我覺得這個邏輯確實也是怪怪的啦我想要聽一下部長您的見解對而且說五年以下幾年以下那個個案的情況是不一樣個案的情形是不一樣就像竊盜罪五年以下就偷一支筆跟偷了 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13016.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13032.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
拖了很多東西價值連城的東西都是五年以下但是他那個處理的一個給他落價的一個後來的刑法的評價兩省市會不一樣的嘛那我也不能講說拖乾筆我就不辦啊我只拖價值連城的一些的珍貴的珠寶 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13032.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13052.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
或者說其他的東西我想檢察官不應該有這種的差別性勿妄勿重公正執法好 謝謝部長剛剛用我們一般人可以聽懂的話來回應為什麼這麼說因為剛剛張祺凱委員甚至我認為我和李懷疑他剛剛在公開造謠剛剛那個照片他說那是25萬人可是我們看台北市警察局就是所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13053.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13072.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
蔣萬安市長他們所主導的警察局說當天大概只有6萬到7萬人我覺得這個數字也是相當的令人懷疑到底是25萬還是6萬到底那份民調所代表的民意或者是他們所想像中人民看見什麼我覺得今天我也幫忙問了這些問題謝謝部長的示意謝謝部長請回那接下來我可以問回我要問的謝謝我要請那個國安局謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13084.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13096.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
其實今天我想問的很多問題大概很多委員也都說了不過我覺得有幾個面向的問題想要跟您來討論是不是在後續修法的時候我們可以怎麼樣來進行我們直接剪到下一頁因為在陸委會相關的記者會當中提到參加組織的人不再相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13103.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13127.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
法规的规范范围里面所以如果我们来盘点上个礼拜在另外一个委员会也有进行相关的询答在人员的部分跟行为的部分确实现在在法规上是有不足的地方需要进行后续修法当然我知道你们都说尊重立法院尊重立法委员对不对但是我要提的是当我们进行修法之后我认为对行政机关最困难其实是执行面 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13128.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13151.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
就是如何去執行這些法規範然後如何讓所有的相關工作人員在相關的案件當中他們真的可以做到相關的執行然後甚至是違法的行為可以被偵查然後呢在偵查的時候很多機密的資料不要在無止境的外洩或者是呢要有有效的犯意嚇阻機制我覺得這件事情應該會是你們後續的困難你自己怎麼看是 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13154.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13170.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
謝謝委員指導我想這個修國安法或者是其他國安法字面的部分大概相關選者不會都會邀請我們國安局去參加那我們國安局都會表達意見只要能補這個國安的漏洞我們都贊成我們都非常樂意來修這個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13173.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13195.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
對但是我剛講你們還要提出你們在後續工作量能上需要的資源因為修完法之後我們常常看到很多修完法之後其實在執行層面是困難的那我也很開心聽到你說在相關修法會議當中國安局都有參與那我覺得要拜託國安局這邊就更務實的提出你們所需要的資源跟人力好嗎或者是相關預算好不好是 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13195.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13214.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
好 謝謝那我們後續也會持續關心那我們接下來看一下其實最近有這個相關的新聞的案例我想你都非常清楚一個是總統府憲兵隊那他們的做法我就不再細說但是我們看到他們說他們得到的不罰所得大概算出來是一百八十四萬可是我要說出賣的國家利益絕對遠超於這個對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13216.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13245.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
遠超過這184萬你自己怎麼看當然這個出賣國家這個他的一個所得國家的損失實在是無法以那個這個量化的金錢來衡量也因為金錢無法量化但是對於整體國家安全人民所造成的擔心或者是人民的疑慮我認為確實不管是在我剛說修法或是後續執行那我們來看一下這兩天也有周刊家在講到中國透過親共的台灣黑幫分子這些事情我相信你們國安局 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13245.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13265.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
應該也都有掌握對不對是我們會透過國安團隊情報團隊收集相關的國安的有關的情報經過我們的會診分析這個確實我們也會掌握好那我來看下一張所以這就是你們提供給我們這個相關的報告這個表格是對的對不對你們所提供的 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13267.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13295.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
中共五大滲透管道及四大手法是 這個我們也有在委員會的報告裡面都有把它整理出來好 那我自己看到這些資料其實如同剛剛司藥委員說的我覺得非常的驚悚驚悚的意思就是說其實你們應該都掌握了這些訊息不管是在最近或者是幾個共點案的偵辦當中或者是陸陸續續收集這些資料我自己看到這些資料如果我們要跟國人討論這件事情我覺得有幾個面向我想要提供給國安局做參考第一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13295.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13310.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
中共如此無往無恐不入的滲透行為而且我必須要說他非常廣泛而且他試著想要讓這些事情是有效的在國安沒有看見的角落那我們國安局或是整體的行政機關如何建立廣泛 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13311.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13327.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
足夠而且有效的預防國家機密外洩的保護措施這是第一個第二個如果國家機密一旦洩露或者是危害國家的安全的行為發生的時候如何精準又快速的查緝避免損壞的情形擴大這是第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13328.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13339.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
第三個面對中共這麼多元的滲透行為行政機關有沒有機會提供給我們一般人行為指引讓民眾不要不小心踩到這個紅線為什麼我剛要問你這麼多事情所以我很開心聽到你們說國安局有參與相關會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13345.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13366.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
也就是說在預防的部分事先預防還有當事情發生的查緝或者是在那之前對我們一般小老百姓來說對一般公民來說什麼樣的行為是可以做什麼樣的行為是真的不小心會踩到紅線我認為我們需要積極討論這個事情尤其是針對第三點我們有沒有機會提供給民眾一個行為指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13369.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13390.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
這個任何一個滲透的方法 或者是它的樣態 待會我們都會公佈在我們的公開的網站裡面 民眾都可以上去來瀏覽我們也會將這個手法樣態 透過不同的一個場合 包括發布的一個媒體 讓告知民眾 也是在全世界的一個交易 這很重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13390.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13410.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
好 你剛剛講到全社會教育因為這件事情真的非常非常的重要因為我們可以看到就你們剛剛這個表格來看不管是宮廟團體或者是所謂大學跟大學之間的學術交流或者是所謂文化藝術團體的交流其實過去在兩岸之間確實有很多只是我們去的國人不見得有意識到說這中間的活動可能參雜有統戰的 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13413.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13433.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
行為在裡面 對嗎孩子們去對岸的大學參觀他可能不會要說 啊原來這一堂課是要給我洗腦的他們可能就安排了一個早上的課那如何在全民都可以理解這樣的事情這樣的概念情況下我們還是可以在安全的情況下進行人岸交流所以我想一般的所謂行為指引這件事情要拜託你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13434.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13456.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
為我們人民把關這件事情非常非常重要因為我相信一般人都是希望自己不要是被滲透的對象也希望自己不要成為中共在台灣的代理人或者是幫兇所以我認為好的行為指引對我們一般人真的非常重要所以來看一下目前剛剛司法委員也說了民進黨團除了修這個國安實法之外後續民進黨團也會有自己的內規 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13457.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13476.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
但除了這件事情之外我還想進一步跟您請教其實呢網美會委員或者是其他民營黨團的委員都有提出來例如說一定職等或是一定關節符合一定條件的公務員跟軍官如果他們從事效忠中國的行為可以依法剝奪部分或全部的退休金 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13477.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13492.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
在這件事情的修法其實我們也受到了阻礙或者是像我們個人在程序委員會的案子也受到了阻礙所以我想我當然非常謝謝你們說尊重立法院的提案那民進黨團當然也會積極在這件事情上持續有所作為所以我想我這邊最後還是快速的說 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13493.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13518.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
行政機關該有的措施如何防範中共滲透統戰的策略還有如何預防如何處置還有相關行政部門可不可以給我們一般人一個所謂的行為指引這件事情並且擴大所謂社會教育全面宣導最後呢我們也呼籲我們立法院應該要儘速填補國安相關法律漏洞我也要呼籲藍白不要再阻擋國安法案好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝主席 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13519.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13520.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
主席有請外交部陸委會 國安局 法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13554.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13579.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
經濟學人日前有一篇文章他說一場有關台灣的超級強權危機即將來臨他指出三大因素會將台灣置於險境其中有一部分說到台灣政府政治失能成為中共灰色戰術企圖利用的弱點也提到賴清德的總統的強硬反制 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13580.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13605.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
那麼進一步加劇的社會撕裂讓中共有機可乘那我想請教一下我們各個部會你們都是作為我們總統非常重要的不管是對內的治安或是對於國家安全的重要幕僚單位你們對於經濟學人的這一篇文章的看法是什麼先請外交部好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13615.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13640.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
呃委員好呃我是外交部人事處處長那對於這個部分的話因為我們呃不在我們呃今天的夜館範圍裡面所以我沒有評論謝謝好來我們請陸委會委員好我們對於任何涉及到國家安全我們都是非常慎重以待好來請國安局呃委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13641.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13662.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
那我想國安就是全體的人民的一個國安那我們認為有關於國安的部分一定要特別重視好來請我們的部長我想這個國安的問題是現在大家全民最關注的反正有涉及的一些的建立那我想我們都會做一個參採謝謝委員是那我難怪經濟學院這麼寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13667.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13693.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
這位四位的回答跟沒回答也沒有差別太多但沒關係你們回去也準備一個書面的來看看你們怎麼去應對經濟學人這樣的說法一個重點賴清德總統尤其對國內我們一些政治的狀態的許多的做法加劇的社會的撕裂也讓中共有機可乘我來請教我們的國安局好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13695.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13723.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
事實上不管是哪一位總統在任中共對台的威脅一直都存在沒錯吧但是呢今天中共對台的威脅有一個非常重要的一個著力點就是如果當台灣內部這個政治鬥爭政治的所謂的對抗越加激烈台灣的社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13724.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13743.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
開始進入分化的情況之下那是不是中共就相對是比較有機可乘了對不對當然這個如果是我們內部的安定確實對中共這個滲透或者他的一個相關的一個對我們的一個這個打擊沒錯所以我想問一個問題請問這個李登輝前總統跟陳水扁前總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13754.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13775.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
馬英九前總統跟蔡英文前總統再加上我們現在的賴清德總統有哪一個總統在他總統任內他以黨主席的身份下令要求全黨公職來推動在野黨的大罷免哪一個總統有做這件事情來 答不出來來 換一個陸委會來答答看 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13785.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13810.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
五個總統無選 搞不好無選五啦 你打五個也可以啦哪一個這個可能不涉及到陸委會的執照不涉及到 來要請部長這個不是我們法務部主管的業務 我沒辦法回答這個問題我告訴你啦沒有 就算齁 這個沒有常識 也可以常看新聞啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13811.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13839.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
就算不了解狀況我相信所有的社會現狀的報導各位都心知肚明只是你們說不出這句話人家經濟學人講的社會劇烈對抗其所本是什麼身為一個總統他有和諧跟團結國家的高度象徵意義他竟然具名發文 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13840.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13869.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
以黨主席身份要求全黨公職來投入對在野黨的大罷免我跟你講這不就是創造中共的可趁之機嗎李登輝做不到陳水扁做不到馬英九當然做不到蔡英文也做不到就我們現在賴清德總統做得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13873.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13886.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
難怪我告訴你今天台灣情況越來越危險因為當一個總統把所有的心力都放在罷免在野黨搜索所有在野黨的黨部全國性搜索各個在野黨的黨部我還要再問一下局長我一樣給你這個五個題目啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13900.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13927.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
李登輝總統曾經他主政的時候的檢調有搜索全部的在野黨黨部他有去搜嗎有沒有有沒有這個跟我國安局的職長是沒有相關的所以我們我告訴你沒有啦告訴你沒有啦陳隨便也沒有啦馬英九也沒有啦就我們戴清德總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13929.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13957.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
然後剛剛我看很多的詢答一而再再而三強調 勿往勿重啊勿往勿重啊我要回頭說今天不只經濟學人提出這樣的一個說法美國的外交政策網站刊登華府卡內基國際和平基金研究員的文章他說川普應遏止台灣然後說賴清德總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13958.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13984.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
不斷強調台灣主權獨立一步步增進北京動武風險要川普總統仿效布希時期做法要求台北自治以維持台海穩定避免美國遭受波及捲入戰爭這個觀點有人認同有人不認同但是不管是認同跟不認同說真的我們的外交跟國安部門都要去警覺一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13986.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14015.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
美國有這樣的聲音存在對我們絕對不是一件好事這一點我相信國安局應該認同吧有這樣的聲音存在應該對台灣不是好事吧是不是這總會是國安相關事務了吧我想任何的一個評論當然我們都會收集會做一個研判謝謝你 作為幕僚很辛苦我們留我們的部長其他的請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14018.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14042.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
部長 共諜案連環報 總統府立法院外交部都被滲透國安機密從總統府跟外交國安首長身邊源源的流向對岸我看這件事情我是很有感觸 為什麼因為我在總統府工作過 我曾經擔任總統府的副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14044.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14071.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
尤其像何仁傑他擔任吳釗燮幕僚長達13年靠吳釗燮一路提拔進入總統府外交部國安會那吳釗燮在外交部長任內6年斷八國我們國安局長也請來一下 國安局的副局長那麼我想請教我們的外交策略跟戰略布局總統外交初期的規劃的機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14075.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14103.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
不是被北京當局精準掌握了嗎有沒有這個風險 請問我們的副局長是 當然是有這個風險所以在政府總統的隨乎安全人員是我們特別要在安全考核的一個對象然後我要告訴你另外一件事情事實上我們賴清德總統面對這件事情他的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14105.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14120.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
我也想請教一下他說執政黨的黨工都是收買對象在野黨也一樣各行各業都是中國的收買對象然後但是目前我看到被揭露做中共內應的 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14122.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14148.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
主要就是吳釗燮秘書長辦公室的何仁傑總統府總統辦公室的姿意吳尚宇立法院前院長游錫堃辦公室助理盛楚英民進黨民主學院前副主任邱士源以及新北市議員李語典特助黃曲榮等五人當然我知道你們一定說個案不洩露啦但是我要講一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14152.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14176.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
還有其他的涉案嗎我這個問題你一定說個案不介入啦可是我就要問一個問題第一個有沒有跟我們的吳釗燮秘書長好好的談一談了解一下我們現在到底泄密的範圍有多大我還沒講搜索啦我沒有講搜索我只是說起碼跟吳釗燮秘書長談一談有沒有做這件事情有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14178.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14201.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
這個是偵辦的個案 所以我們也不便去做一個說明偵辦的個案 其實我跟你講如果是在總統府 我在總統府的時候我們的外交官發生這種事情我告訴你 我做總統府發言人 我一定有出來說明的義務沒有叫你交代細節 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14203.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14226.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
你起碼告訴國人今天吳釗燮我坦蕩蕩我也接受相關單位的詢問詢問來幫忙協助做損害控管我不知道為什麼連這一件事情都做不到照你所說的否認那我是解讀是沒有這一次沒做囉是這樣嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14232.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14258.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
我沒辦法去這是個案嘛 就是回到那個個案嘛你個案講了一萬遍有了好啦沒關係 我告訴你你一貫就用個案來講但是我還是要講一件事情國人有知的權利我也不是在怪我們今天的法務部啊 國安局啊或是我們的檢調機關啊而是今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14259.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14269.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
怎麼會總統府這件事情沒藥沒金呢真的如果我是在總統府的時候這個事情媒體不可能放過我啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14270.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14294.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
我也不可能交代案情 我站出來不會說 不會啦 我跟你講我們的這個國安會秘書長 我們總統府的那個 我們的總統我們都已經1510 ABCDEFG五項 六項 七項的一個洩密範圍我們都已經跟這個司法單位已經說了我不可能透露到這麼細呀但是起碼安定國人的心這件事總要做嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14297.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14323.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
就像部長喔如果部裡發生什麼狀況你要安定民心的話你部裡的發言人總要出來說話嘛對不對沒錯吧我不是講個案啦一些重大的法務部的重大事件你的部裡發言人要不要出來說一下我們法務部應該不會發生重大事件吧不會不會啊你太小看法務部了你太小看法務部沒關係啦我告訴你啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14325.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14347.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
就這麼一個道理嘛然後接下來我跟你講喔然後因為共諜案平場我覺得部長都訓練很好都不談個案可是我們的總統沒有阿直接一刀就是說在野黨也有阿在野黨有沒有總統說的對不對請問我們副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14350.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14359.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
從歷次歷年來的一個統計執政黨或在野黨都有發生謝謝 你現在又不個案了因為總統講的話你也得要跟不是 我告訴你你作為總統你跟我講在野黨的個案是哪些 你告訴我你要知道總統府是總統府 國安會 外交部 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14376.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14399.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
你不要跟我講路人夾一筆你抓到共諜你要去跟總統府的幕僚比我要跟你講今天涉及的這個所謂的共諜案的總統府的辦公室之一吳尚宇還有我們這個吳釗燮的幕僚何仁傑我想請問你們他們是公務員嗎是正式的公務員嗎這種回答要出來吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14403.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14412.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
是不是方便由考試院或人總來做一個說明可以啊 沒關係 有單位說明就好來 有在嗎 人總我也好是嗎 他們是考國家考試進來的公務員嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14425.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14453.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
委員您剛問的是 吳尚宇啊他們是聘用人員 答對了聘用人員是依照聘用人員聘用條例禁用所以不是依據任用法禁用的人員非常好你看我們的人事人總回答得多清楚來請回謝謝你副局長我跟你講這個其實不用人總回啦你不可能不知道你們如果連這個都沒有掌握我就覺得會有一點小遺憾但是沒有關係啦我要先講一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14454.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14481.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
這些人其實都是從民進黨帶來的機要有時候我都覺得對我們現在公務單位有時候他們還是間接被連累感覺好像總統府被滲透 國安會被滲透不是 抱歉是賴清德的幕僚被滲透是吳釗燮的政治機要幕僚被滲透因為他們都是聘用的都不是文官系統出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14483.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14509.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
所以我回頭講最後要講一件事情就是說基本上我當然支持你今天好好查辦所有的共敵但是另外一方面我也真的非常感慨我剛剛前面講了很多東西不管是罷免不管是對在野黨黨部的搜索這種所謂大殺四方的總統我只在賴清德身上看見以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14519.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14520.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
好 呃...來吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14527.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14551.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
那個局長那個釣魚局長就是我們剛有提到那個剛有質詢的時候有提到那個績效核分的那個事情我想麻煩局長就是說今天下午能夠提供給我們那個核分的項目表因為那個是已經有的一定有的資料想提供給我們然後裡面要有那個集聚那個比較細緻的規定給我們電子檔就可以再麻煩給我辦公室好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14554.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14582.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
那所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢 那訓導結束委員諮詢時有要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會委員許信義所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆那本次的會議為兩天一次會那今天的會議進行到此那我們現在休息 謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14588.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14589.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
蜂蜜 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14618.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14621.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14627.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14635.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
好 馬上拿了就要對啊 還好沒吃過那也可以這個 反正不好意思 不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14659.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14659.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
謝謝收看,下次見 |