| IVOD_ID |
166430 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166430 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
21 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-15T12:01:22+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-15T12:15:59+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:37 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d486c5db5da75906cae03c862223901fe3a1989ac581c2286697ca1ee740c94bddaafb66827a691f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王鴻薇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:01:22 - 12:15:59 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第21 次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「針對國軍各類型火藥原物料購案，廠商資格標準訂定及審認作法」，併請經濟部、行政院公共工程委員會、法務部廉政署列席，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席 請部長還有軍備局局長請顧部長 軍備局局長好 部長 局長好我先請教局長請問一下過去RDX是不是都是軍備局自行對外進口的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
25.595 |
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跟委員報告RDS都是我們進口原料由我們軍備局二零一廠自行產製提煉成RDS所以都自行進口那這次為什麼要不是進口原料RDS的原料好RDS原料RDS的原料是一個化學品是一個化學品叫做烏洛脫貧對那由RDS由軍備局來生產好那請問一下這次為什麼要由廠商民間廠商來進口呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
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因為要為各軍種的 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
60.233 |
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64.996 |
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不對稱作戰的裝備的需求要擴充產能的關係對 要擴充產能我就採自製跟外購170噸來因應所以今年開始過去都沒有對外採購過第一次第一次採購第一次採購RDX對 RDX那顯然就出現了這樣的一個量身訂做來 那我請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
87.97 |
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好我請問一下那個部長今天你回答媒體的時候你非常不耐煩因為連續爆發的這幾個案件都出現了非常低的資本額但是他們的得標金額都很高那一個就是這個福邁它是1900萬它的得標金額是5.9億另外大石國際資本額3500萬它的得標金額是2億4900萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
116.855 |
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128.963 |
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然後另外一個呢是我今天特別提出的他的得標金額不高但是他的資本額只有少少的10萬元所以部長你認為資本額的高低不重要不在你們國房採購裡面的考慮範圍嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
136.774 |
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148.042 |
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有關於火藥原物料也就是屬於內購外賣也就是屬於代理的部分我們都是過去20年來都採公開招標的方式辦理廠商的資格都是一致的好 在你們的報告裡面你們說其實你們的標準我看起來極低第一個只要是合法登記的第二個營業項目有國際貿易業還有你有納稅證明三項資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
164.514 |
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168.878 |
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那我先補充一下 剛才你一直強調福邁是過去都有國際貿易業 錯他是去年才新登記國際貿易業他的另外的關西企業 這個賣馬桶的 衛浴設備的他才有國際貿易業 但是來標的是福邁好 那我要問的是 資本額難道不重要嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
188.716 |
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194.519 |
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資本額難道不重要嗎如果今天你的門檻這麼低難道沒有國安疑慮嗎我們現在看到的這些標案在裡面你們都講說這是有國安相關的機敏的標案但是你們都把資本額不重要部長說我沒有辦法去管他的資本額啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
212.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
213.929 |
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請問一下這沒有國安疑慮嗎有心人士想要來標國防部的標案非常容易啊不知道你知道在國內國內登記有案從事國際貿易業的廠商有多少家嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
228.524 |
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248.844 |
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你知道嗎 跟委員報告我們查到最早 譬如說過去從100年以來到現在38個標案包括了V炸藥等等的這些所謂的火藥的原物料等等我們所有都採公開招標廠商的資格都是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
249.656 |
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255.424 |
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那沒有問題都沒有問題過去我要講的比如說中科院有一些標案因為我時間有限這個要素這個要素會有國安疑慮我剛剛講 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
265.598 |
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278.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
在國內登記為國際貿易業的高達32萬家但是他真正有規模在從事國際貿易業的只有1100家那你剛剛講的福邁我可以告訴你他從110年到113年不知道你知道嗎他進口的金額是多少嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
292.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
319.814 |
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我想我們零一毛錢都沒有長期他沒有進口任何一個品項只有在今年他開始在標案子標中科院標國防部的案子才出現進口金額所以這個不奇怪嗎這個社會不會質疑嗎然後部長你是法律人喔你是法律人法律人我們就來看法規 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
321.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
340.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們工程會本來就有採購法我們也有相關的一些執法對於政府機關投票廠商的資格特別是那種特殊的還有巨額採購本來就有認定標準啊你們國防部是話外之明嗎來 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
343.018 |
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360.864 |
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投標廠商資格與特殊或巨額採購的認定標準他起碼要有幾項第一個他必須具有相當的經驗或實績者這個很重要嘛你對於一些這種特殊規格的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
362.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
372.725 |
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巨額採購的 你都不要管他 他以前有沒有做過我剛才講這家公司110年到113年就是今年之前他的進口金額是零啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
374.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
379.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
然後你可以讓他標一個5.9億的案子還覺得OK 沒問題啊 合法啊好 來 再來 具有相當人力者人很重要嘛 他有相關的專業的人力嘛或者他有相關的配備我可以告訴你啊 你去查這家服賣公司到今年在爭人才 他還在招募人力啊他招募什麼人力啊他招募的還是室內裝修的人力啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
403.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
412.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
最近不是在講說馬總統時代也有什麼合成衛育也有標國防工程啊合成衛育資本額是多少30億結束30億而且人家有實驗室有實驗室你拿這個 這是什麼呀這是一隻老母雞比那個雞爪嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
432.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
450.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這種比喻 再來 具有相當財力者這個很重要囉 具有相當財力者他特別講 他包括失收資本額不能低於招標預算金額的十分之一那當然後面還有 你有什麼會計年度要有什麼樣什麼樣的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
452.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
465.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
好啦我要問的是如果今天我們政府機關針對這些重要的標案還有這些特殊的標案有國安資格國安一律的標案 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
467.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
494.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
都有這樣的一個限制這限制是基本的嘛這不是最基本的標準嗎你要有時機我相信你有這個經驗第二個你要有一定的人力我們在講不管RDX HMX它都是 它是化學品 疫爆品最近不是萬海航運在印度萬海就爆炸到現在還在印度 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
495.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
497.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
萬海沒辦法開啊包含你航運的安排交通的安排 還有我請問你啊請問他把這個一進口是直接送到你軍備局是吧他不需要有倉儲是吧他直接就送到你軍備局所以你們不要那麼扯嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
515.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
520.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
部長你是法律人這個都是工程會的規定工程會這樣規定你國防部不需要你給我訂一個什麼只要你是有合法登記的啦只要你是什麼有國際貿易的啦只要你有納稅證明你這麼低我告訴你啊還在辦什麼反滲透法有心人士隨便找一家美容美髮業找一家快炒業現在很多都在搞國際貿易啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
545.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
553.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
就可以來標你國防的功臣標你國防機敏的功臣標你國安的功臣你不會被滲透嗎你不會被滲透嗎你們這種標準還好意思拿出來國防部的標準那個主席給我一點點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
567.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
573.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
委員我可以回答一下 等一下因為這個很重要我請你回去檢討啦不要每次一講就說我們認知作戰你國防部的標案我們不能夠去檢討嗎不能去監督嗎委員不讓我有回答的機會我想這不是一般的詢答方式吧這怎麼不是一般的詢答方式好你講啊請問一下你憑什麼國防的標案它的標準可以這麼低而工程會的標準你告訴都寫在那裡給你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
596.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
613.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
跟委員報告第一個就是說這是一個進口的現貨供應那麼進口的現貨供應呢他具有國際貿易的一個代理的資格那對這個合約的控制的手段就在於他必須要取得輸出許可證明這個輸出許可證明遠比你的資本額 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
618.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
635.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
原理比你的過去的時機都要來的重要因為不論你過去有多少時機不論你資本有多少你沒有辦法拿到輸出許可證明一翻兩瞪眼他沒有辦法履歷有拿許可證明就代表他一定有能力嗎有拿到輸出許可證明才可以往下走廣大的人幫他拿到許可證明才可以往下走 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
640.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
649.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那他所以他在投標的時候他就必須要思考他有辦法拿得到輸出許可證明嗎他如果拿不到輸出許可證明他敢來投標嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
653.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
670.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
他就算投標 我跟你講嘛 我剛才講萬海航運已經有一個在印度外海爆炸的萬海長榮這些陽明海運他們不是不能夠運輸但是他的非常嚴格 尤其 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
670.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
672.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
剛剛發生所以這第二點第二點就是原廠的製造原廠的製造證明他就要跟這個代理商講好他們要原廠要用專傳然後來運輸然後來抵台 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
686.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
696.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
他還沒有交易底台之前所有的風險都是由他負擔並不是由我們負擔過去從來沒有做任何進出口過去從來沒有做過任何的軍火然後他到國外說我要進口你們的這個RDX然後他就順利可以取得他的這個輸入特許許可證明你覺得怪不怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
710.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
713.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
你覺得奇不奇怪這麼神奇的事情所有的國際貿易從事國際貿易業者都有這個可能性你如果委員可以去看看我們過去20年來所做的火藥的原物料的購案所獲得的所能夠得標的這個廠商都是從事國際貿易業者你不要再跟我沖扯我剛就跟你講這件事情嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
740.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
746.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
因為時間的關係 海君等一下簡要回答我只有一件事情 我的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
748.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
770.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
海昆號 海昆號現在呢 這是媒體爆料那我也相信 應該是跟那個海昆號 他在海撤的時候這個 有參與的人 應該去爆料爆料的意思就是說 我們在經過海撤的時候 出現了故障最後呢 都要用人力操舵 說要人力操舵才逃出來就易壓故障 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
773.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
797.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
結果媒體去求證台船台船最後告訴大家為了保密跟加緊完成測試以後將不再逐一回應請問一下可以這樣子嗎人命關天的事情這是納稅人這麼多錢的事情台船可以講說我以後不再逐一回應是怎麼樣 要保密三次嗎可以這樣嗎我想先請問跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
802.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
827.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那因為的確最近有幾起的這個新聞的這個披露那對整個台船跟整個專業團隊的士氣那影響很大那我想台船也在短時間都說了一個非常比較確確的一個說明那台船現在目前應該是要加強不是未來這種可能危及到這個相關安全的問題人民安全的問題他可以說不再回應嗎可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
828.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
833.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我只問你可以或不可以我問你們國防部有沒有授權台船可以這樣所以是你授意的所以國防部授意我要求不可以這樣黑箱作業不可以針對這麼重大的這樣的一個有故障而且可能造成人命安全的問題不可以說我從此以後我不再回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
859.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
876.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這樣是黑箱座也好 部長一句話來我們可以公開的部分我們一定會對外來公開說明對應該守密的事項也會進行守密像這種事情有或沒有要跟外面報告嗎要怎麼改進不能說我從此以後都不再說明好不好好 謝謝 |