| IVOD_ID |
16643 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16643 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
16 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-05T08:30:17+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-05T10:18:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:47:43 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea13160f04860f8ef71097cfa4245e414914bfadd538e1bbbf5a0bc770f589259e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七十二條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案。十、繼續審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。十一、繼續審查委員魯明哲等18人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:17 - 10:18:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1930.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1959.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
大家早安 請主任祕書報告出席人數好 現在開會進行報告事項 請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第十一屆第三會期內政委員會第十五次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百十四年五月一日星期四上午九時二分至十一時三十八分 地點紅樓二零二會議室出席委員蘇喬惠委員等十二人 另席委員張七開委員等十九人請假委員張志倫委員麥玉珍委員二人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1960.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1986.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
練習官員 行政院國土安全辦公室主任林傑暨相關人員大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑暨相關人員法務部政務次長黃士傑暨相關人員內政部海洋委員會司法院國家安全局外交部國防部經濟部交通部農業部衛生福利部數位發展部權序部行政人事行政總處國家通訊船部委員會國家科學及技術委員會金融監督管理委員會國軍退出一官兵輔導委員會等機關代表暨相關人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1987.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2014.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
主席章昭及委員洪璐報告事項宣讀上次會議時錄決定確定討論事項審查國家安全法修正草案計9案討論事項和並詢答委員黃潔等16人質詢由法務部政務次長黃世傑及相關人員大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑數位發展部資通安全署副署長周志和司法院刑事廳法官吳元耀內政部護政司司長陳永志及相關人員行政院國土安全辦公室主任林潔答覆說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2014.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2040.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
登記發言委員處不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束委員林楚英陳冠廷黃建斌丁學忠所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會決議討論事項所列議案均令定期繼續審查條文均尚未宣讀宣讀完畢好請問各位委員上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺留此處 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2042.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2064.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
沒有錯誤 疑似無確定 謝謝繼續進行討論事項 請宣讀繼續審查委員羅廷維等16人委員高金素美等21人委員王洪威等24人委員林思明等22人分別擬據社會秩序維護法第64條條文修正查案繼續審查委員盧明哲等17人擬據社會秩序維護法第89條條文修正查案 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2065.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2082.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
继续审查台湾民众党党团拟据社会秩序维护法第64条及第72条条文修正查案继续审查委员邱若华等19人拟据社会秩序维护法第64条条文修正查案继续审查委员邱若华等19人拟据社会秩序维护法第72条条文修正查案 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2083.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2096.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
继续审查委员严宽恒等16人拟据社会秩序维护法第9条条文修正查案继续审查委员严宽恒等16人委员鲁明哲等18人分别拟据社会秩序维护法第89条条文修正查案宣读完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2100.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2125.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
好本市審查這法案業經本會於114年4月24日本會及第13次全體委員會議報告及詢答結束並決議均另定期繼續審查原此本次會議繼續進行審查現在介紹在場委員及列席官員首先委員的部分我們王美惠委員蘇巧惠委員黃婕委員李柏毅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2130.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2152.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
吳清明委員官員部份內政部劉思芳部長警政署張榮鑫署長報告委員會討論事項的條文上次會議我們都已經宣讀而且進入已經做過初步的討論我們現在進行協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2197.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2220.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
好 我們就一條一條來 可以嗎要不要坐著 坐著比較輕鬆剛剛這樣子啊 我剛剛有問張榮鑫署長因為其實我們上次討論到的結果是針對這幾條警政署應該要有一個相關的一個比較明確的說法那我們是針對大家同意我們先請他進行報告跟說明 這樣可以嗎好 那我們請張榮鑫署長報告說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2222.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2239.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
好 早安委員 各位早安那有關第9條對於這個印尼亞人的部分我們本部的這個意見那是建議修正未滿7歲及有聽覺及語言障礙者這個是我們同意這個示範的這個解釋這是第9條 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2242.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2257.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那第64條對於黃紐這個部分那我稍微做一個說明一下那我們設置法立法的目的本質跟體力都是行政調查跟行政法所規範的都是比較輕微的違規行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2259.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2285.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那票卷黃牛已經涉及不當的方式就是高額獲取這個利益的這個問題對消費者是重大的這個侵害所以不應該再由設置法來加以規範我們可以從文創法跟運產條例就可以知道說專款專文來規範藝文的票卷跟運動賽制的這個黃牛也要採刑事法所以這個對於這個其他黃牛譬如這樣醫療醫療 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2290.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2304.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
參與實訴我們本部是建立由各票卷的主管機關各由各主管票卷的黃有行為來嚴厲修法那從源頭管理跟查辦來做一個處罰那所以我們本部的建立就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2306.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2328.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
如果在設置法在把規範其他列這個黃牛跟現在我們處罰的黃牛會有兩個不同的一個法例的問題那我們本部的建議就是也有做一個附帶的的一個一個處理的方式就是建議由主管機關趕快來做一個修法來修法把納入這個法的這個這個管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2329.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2346.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那另外第72條對於這個噪音的這個部分那我們有統計就是說這個每年像111年 112年我們出警的次數大概有44萬人次的警察那112年的裁罰件數大概500件左右是0.19113年是大概200件 199件大概裁罰只有0.07所以件數非常的少 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2358.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2375.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那我們上次的這個決議裡面大概提高法院那法院的部分本部是沒有意見對於這個處罰的部分法院只要是第一三萬塊是沒有意見那不過呢我們還是這個建立未來在遭遇管制法部分來做專法一個修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2376.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2403.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那第八十九條對於這一些跟追的這個行為我們統計近十年從一百零四年到一百一十三年總共只有三百件那一年大概只有三十件所以可以講說為無極為那這一條我們上次的大概就是也是增加這個法案那我本部的意見如果增加的話也沒有意見那只要也不要超過三萬塊為原則就以上的補充報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2407.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2426.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好 謝謝張榮鑫署長我們部長要補充嗎因為我們內部有先討論過有跟幾位關心的委員也討論過第一個我們就建議就是顏寬文委員的這個所謂的這個陰雅人的部分可以做修正那再來就是有關這個罰款的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2427.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2456.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
因為按照社會秩序維護法它的上限就是3萬不要比這個還高所以我們就尊重委員在討論的時候認為罰款要如何提高但是我們也要提醒一下譬如說像噪音的管制的部分它的最低限是300元那你最低限是300元如果高限以3萬元的話一次就差將近100倍那這個部分是不是未來在處罰的這個程序上面會有一些程序上的困擾也提供給委員參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2459.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2482.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
好謝謝兩位的補充那請坐休息一下好我現在徵詢各位委員的意見來我們就一條一條來好不好這個社會法第九條好請務卿委員我支持我們那個警政室的修正修正說明真的會非常的好所以本席支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2484.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2508.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那第九條我們就因為討論過了嘛對不對到底一個怎麼樣的這個文字上它是比較沒有歧視意味但是可以維持它本來的範圍嘛那麼就是把它改成精神耗弱或未滿7歲極有聽覺且語言障礙者比較中性這請問各位委員這樣修正有問題嗎沒有好那我們就按照這樣的條文修正通過可以嗎可以謝謝好再來我們要先異後難還是一條一條來一條一條來 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2512.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2517.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那我們就先討論一下黃牛票的部分好不好好請大家發表意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2524.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2546.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
對那我還是認為這個黃牛修在這個社會法裡面可能沒有辦法達到我們要的目的啦那我還是希望黃牛一定要處理那是以更嚴肅的方式然後更嚴謹的方式處理所以看是不是覺得不要修在這裡可以保留然後但是可以去看是不是請消保處整理相關的黃牛的樣態然後回歸各個專法處理我覺得會是比較好的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2553.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2555.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
你們三個同時舉手 美惠委員先好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2559.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2582.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
只是在這荒謬票的時候 我覺得是運動跟表演跟遊樂應該是回歸各主管單位的管理比較好因為每一屆的票券都有每一屆的特性我覺得應該是要有各自的配套的總統職下來處理比較好也有辦法改善現有的總統以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2590.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2605.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
好 蘇曉慧委員然後李柏毅委員好 謝謝主席那我想我經過這幾天的我們經過上次的討論和這幾天的思考以後我們也還是一樣認為這個既然現在我們在這個文創法裡面還有運產發展條例裡面有針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2609.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2624.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這種藝文活動和運動賽事這樣的票券能夠有專法然後特別的來規定那麼其他的部分呢比如說大家關心的醫療票券的部分呢我也認為應該用比較用專法的部分回到各該主管機關來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2625.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2643.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
所以像上一次在會議當中我提說我自己也會提出這個修正案那我想很感謝我們立法院同仁的支持也已經在上個星期五已經送進本屆第三會期的第十次會議當中我們也已經送案了那所以我想我是覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2645.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2667.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
縱觀而言我們肯認所有委員對社會上這類問題的關心所以我們是不是不要把它修在社委法裡面我們可以用附帶決議或其他的方式表達對這件事情的關心然後也建議政府這個在各該主管機關用專法的方式來一一的解決這個相關大家關心的這種所謂票券所謂黃牛的問題 以上好 謝謝我們李博弈委員完然後黃婕維好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2674.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2699.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
好謝謝那針對我們設置法第64條裡面我們現在修法要去把包含很多這些票券等等要規範那目前已經有規範的包含這個文化創意產業發展法還有運動產業發展條例裡面分別對運動賽事以及這些藝文表演演唱會等等有一些從文化部以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2705.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2723.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
的一些規範但是醫療跟參旅食宿他其實涉及非常多的面向如果要放在設置法的話那我這邊的傾向也是會比較傾向說是不是由衛福部以及參旅食宿的主管單位來做這個規範因為他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2728.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2740.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
項類會比較多一點所以在這邊是不是建議警政署這邊就直接提出或者是由我們委員這邊來共同來研議一個對64條來研議一個附帶決議那來看後續可以怎麼樣進行接下來的討論 謝謝好黃教委 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2751.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2767.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
好 謝謝那我想要再補充一下因為我還是認為如果說在社會法反而會罰太輕因為你黃牛如果只罰三萬真的對他們完全不痛不癢要想他們對他們來說黃牛是暴力喔他們一次一張票都是用十倍二十倍這樣下去賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2768.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2787.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所以你罰他三萬他還是會照做所以我認為休在這邊反而很可惜啦就是沒有達到我們要的目的然後另外就是我上次說的就是非公自用跟這個意圖他其實定在這邊是非常不明確的然後我在這邊是想要特別請教我們文化部的副司長有來對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2788.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2805.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
是我想要請教因為我剛好最近有一個案子他是說他們買的是跟偶像跟粉絲的見面會然後粉絲跟我說見面會不算在你們文創法的這個範圍裡面因為沒有表演但實質上裡面其實是有含類似表演的性質 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2807.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2833.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
沒有文化不回我的所以我我覺得蠻驚訝是不是在這邊也讓因為可能有一些粉絲他們現在也在看我要給他們一個交代然後我問你們你們又不回就是告訴我說見面會為什麼不能用文創法來罰因為他們也認為那個見面會有疑似黃牛的嫌疑對那所以你們那個表演性質的藝文活動應該是都要放在文創法裡面才對啊可不可以在這邊統一說明謝謝不好意思喔讓我們說明一下謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2836.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2855.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
好 我們請蘇曉慧委員補充這我一定要用麥克風留紀錄粉絲見面會當然要算在藝人活動裡面啊這句話我要留紀錄加碼蘇曉慧委員用粉絲見面會當然是藝人活動的一種因為我常去啊 常買啊這開什麼玩笑請文化部副市長做一下說明副市長 副市長對啊 說明一下好不好對 你想要一張軟軀嗎對啊 拍照可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2865.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2886.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
是還是要跟委員說明一下因為粉絲見面會還是成如委員說的我們會去看裡面的性質他有表演的性質對那個內容粉絲見面本身就是一個表演了大家要搞清楚所以我們可能還是要去看一下那個個案裡面他的一個活動的內容這個部分因為委員的就是有反映的這個那個個案我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2888.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2895.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我們有看過一些錄影的部分我有看過一些線上就是我沒有實際去參加過是是是市長你說你自己錄影去看啦我覺得你要實際去看現在的孩子去見面會有時候要逼去聽唱歌還要多 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2914.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2915.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以真的還搶票有的家長真的為了孩子去新郎廟 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2922.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2948.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
好等一下副市長現在你們解釋的狀況粉絲見面會不算議論表演活動對不對我們要個案認定那怎麼罰是個案認定那怎麼罰不是不罰還是要看它是不是裡面有表演所以我講嘛這就是這麼多委員去提社會法的原因嘛對不對就是當然定專法都是對的但或有不足或有權勢這我倒是蠻贊成大家的說法就是說粉絲見面會當然是議論表演活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2949.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2972.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
而且他的暴力的程度不亞於演唱會等等所以你趕快做調整好不好不行不行 我覺得這樣子見面會只要是有票券販售他就是表演沒有什麼我們要進去裡面看他有沒有表演什麼叫他裡面有沒有表演他光站上舞台的那一刻起就已經是表演了 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2973.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2989.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
這就是一個藝人在表現他的所有的才能他就是表演他即便是脫口秀他即便是什麼他就是表演我覺得沒有沒有只要是有販售票券的就已經是藝文活動表演了OK好我們請高經緯好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2994.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2998.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
早在108年的時候 行政院就黃牛票的行為已經召開跨部會會議了 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3014.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3039.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
當時呢民進黨也是我們的執政黨也是國會多數可是那個時候召開這個跨部會會議的時候拖了四年喔108拖了四年一直到現在沒有拿出具體的解決方案那我們現在看到黃牛的具體的這個亂象越來越多也越來越多元最後呢一直到112年的時候我們立法委員才 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3040.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3062.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
主動發起修法所以才會有現在的文創法跟運產法但是僅僅能夠處理藝文跟運動票券像是旅宿餐飲就是我一直在談的遊樂園票券甚至黃牛陳列票券的行為通通無法管 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3062.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3084.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
包括剛剛在座的三位談的那個所謂的見面會那個都是衍生出來的問題好不好還有更嚴重的是我們號稱有專法處理但是我們去看所有的檢舉我上次也質詢過這個就要一步就是我們有檢舉9000件對不對可是實際開罰的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3091.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3113.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
不到2%而已所以也就是说有非常多的不在我们的文创法跟运创法里面被罚到所以这样子来说的话我们人民怎么会相信政府你们是真的要打击黄牛呢所以我们这次才会修设为法另外我要再说 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3115.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3140.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
黃牛的問題早已經不是文化或運動產業的個別亂象它真的是我們社會共同面對的制度性的問題讓民眾買不到票用不起搶不到日常生活真的都被搞得亂七八糟所以我們才會主張是不是從社違法裡面來搭配各專法雙管齊下 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3141.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3159.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那么我还记得在112年的时候在教文委员会的公厅上上面肖基会他当时就建议应该要来修色违法第64条比如说黄牛炒的蛋黄酥 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3161.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3179.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
對不對 代購 掛號全部都是一定都有的所以我認為只要是意圖盈利並且它是公開上架包括我們剛剛說的見面會這種它本來就應該要納入處罰可是我們看到這幾年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3184.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3201.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我們的政府沒有提出專法也沒有修社委法我們看到的就是亂象不斷然後執法無力再來我必須要講的是我們上次有提到的就是社委法一直在講社委法沒有嚇阻力應該要有刑事法 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3202.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3216.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
然後我要問的是 夠不夠重 而是有沒有罰現在其實民眾最不滿的就是 我已經檢舉了 然後政府說要罰可是根本也沒有看到誰被罰了 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3219.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3242.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
三萬塊可能不中可是我認為總比完全不執法來得有效吧所以今天我們如果用社委法來迅速處理來加強執行然後我們是不是再搭配檢舉獎勵或者是黑名單的機制因為有意圖要做這件事情的他一定是 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3244.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3261.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
他會做很多的準備而我們被抓過一次其實他就是黑名單他以後可能就是我們要非常注意的所以我說我覺得是不可以說我們罰太輕然後呢就說哎呀這件事情就不處理了然後就讓他繼續的 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3263.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3264.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
最高行政法院在106年的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3280.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3302.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
判制第454號的判決已經明確指出行政法跟刑法的差異僅僅是在於刑度而非實質的內容我們簡單換一句話講對這種普遍性的違規行為本來就可以用社違法來先做基礎的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3303.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3319.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
所以我認為就是說如果我們現在的政府以及執政黨你們認為特定的課案特別的嚴重應該要以專法加重刑責我是完全支持的那麼是不是就請大家另外提案的時候但是但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3320.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3338.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
色違法的手法是政府現在立刻可以上手的我們現在已經在談了然後它是可以即刻執行的工具我認為最後的結論就是民眾要看的就是我們到底有沒有執法的決心而不是繼續用口號來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3342.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3360.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
要不然的話我覺得這個社會會越來越亂大概以上我提的幾點請大家思考一下我們既然今天已經在談社違法了已經它立即可以做了我們把好多的面向是不是好好討論一下以上謝謝好 謝謝高金素美委員的說明我們請張宏祿找尾 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3363.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3372.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
謝謝其實我覺得這個黃牛真的太廣了那要不要處理大家都有共識要處理而且我覺得連行政部門的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3374.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3392.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
觀點也要改變啦你像文化部說的這個見面會這個還有那個我個人也是非常覺得跟實際的情況是不一樣的啦我們要比較積極啦那我覺得啦大家講的都非常有道理但 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3393.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3406.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
行政部門講的啊你如果吼你用專法你可以用刑法用什麼你可以是處罰的比較多的而且也不會掛一肉萬我怕我們這邊吼這真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3409.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3432.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
雖然我們想了很多啦但這個社會進步很快可能明天又有新的東西出來了所以我不知道行政部門是怎麼樣我覺得啦我們是不是在這個社會法裡面就黃流這一個部分我們就直接也給他寫入法就是說相關其他的部會應該要訂專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3434.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3446.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我覺得我們就這樣子如果可以這樣寫進去其他的要訂專法那他們也才可以去執行我不知道行政單位對這樣的看法有沒有什麼不同的意見可以請行政單位說一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3448.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3476.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我們可以用附帶決議又或什麼有很多東西可以去做這個啦我稍微綜合一下各位委員的意見第一個就是說就是說大家都希望能夠用專法來充分規範是最好的嘛包含行政部門的想法是這樣對不對但其實在剛剛的過程中就發現即便是專法它或多又會有漏洞嘛因為有權勢的問題嘛所以我覺得這個社會法作為一個就是一個對總括啦就是另外事項的一種罰則的存在我覺得還是有必要嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3477.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3502.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
因為剛剛就有具體例子譬如說見面會就是很好的例子所以怎麼 所以調高他的罰則調高他的罰則應該還是有必要的嘛對不對因為現在本來大家的提案第一個是調高罰則第二個是討論樣態嘛那我們是不是可以用一個怎麼樣的法律文字來規範譬如說非專法規範之什麼非公自由販售各種票券就是用社會法來就讓他確定他是一個捕破網這樣子的一個形式啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3503.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3528.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
有沒有辦法我們討論出一個這樣子的條文來做修正那當然附帶決議的部分我覺得附帶決議要求各個機關去思考各個主管範圍內部訂立專法的必要性是大家都會贊成但是你不要去寫說我們這個社會法就沒有必要或者是不處理我覺得也奇怪啦所以我覺得彼此之間文字再做一下斟酌看有沒有辦法達成共識啦我們往這個方向來思考行政機關要不要再補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3534.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3550.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那我還是再補充一下因為如果放在社委法還是要小心說包括像醫療的一種一些套組或者是說餐飲的一些套卷跟旅遊的一些套票如果他們用社委法會不會不小心發錯這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3553.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3555.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
對 那我知道說放在社會法是希望概略性的處理各種樣態的黃牛可是我就是怕這個全面的處理反而會誤罰到不該罰的那這種餐飲的套卷上次已經講過很多了就是餐飲業有各式各樣的那種套票 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3570.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3584.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
然後甚至是買禮券的然後你放在這邊就是變成說連很多餐飲業者可能會不小心被誤罰我覺得這個要小心一點然後我還是再說一次這邊社會法最高就只有罰三萬大家要審慎思考只罰三萬會不會釋出的訊息反而是非常錯誤的說原來我們台灣處理黃牛只用三萬塊處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3594.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3604.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這個好像看起來 我會覺得反而沒有想要達到我們的目的就是我們希望的是重罰然後結果大家說重罰 重罰黃牛三萬這個對呀 這個我會覺得反而有失我們意圖要更嚴格的處理這件事的這個想法啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3618.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3635.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
謝謝那我是覺得如果可以做的話就是說是不是乾脆訂一個附帶決議然後請各個主管機關回去都開始研擬相關的專訪然後訂一個修法時程我覺得都很好但是如果放在這邊最後我們重罰三萬塊那真的是蠻弱的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3637.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3664.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
這個我要補充一下如果不修的話是只有一萬八啦這樣比較好啦 對啊所以大家商量一下因為社會法上限是三萬嘛這我想我們在討論過程中非常清楚所以一樣法環樣態好不好 請高清委員我覺得黃菊委員擔心的那個部分並不會存在啦因為它如果真的是屬於文創法它就屬於文創法那邊的法環然後它如果是運動的它就在運動專法那其他的話我們還說我們會 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3667.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3690.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這個專法其他的專法會出來那其他的專法肯定也要把它罰得很重我們現在講的就是說漏掉的部分在專法裡面沒有的我們至少要先把它放在這個色違法裡面那你們剛剛擔憂的這個履塑業這個我覺得這是樣態的問題我們大家想一想可以看排除法或者是專章裡面來處理好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3694.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3714.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
主席我們非常的了解也肯定高金委員剛剛的想法就是我們希望在這裡面看因為社會法本來就是說社會秩序在種種的裁罰刑罰或者各式各樣規範之後能夠有一個大王把剩下的漏洞接住他原來是這樣的概念但 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3714.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3738.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我們現在如果要用這樣社會法去接住其他漏洞的時候我們現在在討論的就是說那個文字的寫法要很小心不要在概括把大家接住的同時卻多收了其他社會上本來也有一些樣態是介在這個兩邊之間嘛就是合法和非法之間我們是希望把所有非法的都包進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3740.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3748.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
但是合法的你不能把它伸張出去所以我覺得這個地方的話要小心的是那個文字到底寫不寫得出來有沒有辦法在這段時間寫出來那如果沒有辦法在現在就寫出來的話我們這幾位立法委員要修法的同時我們就必須要在假設今天要有結論的話我們要決定的是那 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3761.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3786.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我們到底要把他這個法律文字擴張出去以至於可能會踩到合法的人侵害到他們的權益或者是不管我們現在就是大家就這個亂世用重點所以我們就是要把刑度擴張我們必須做一個抉擇我覺得是這樣因為心意大家都肯定了這樣好不好我們沒有任何人要彼此要怎麼樣嘛這個沒有沒有要互相這個制衡這樣的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3788.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3799.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
好 請張宏祿召委我覺得啦齁其實大家都有共識啦像高俊維什麼這個大家其實都有一個共識但是我我是不是說我們有一個具體的建議就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3801.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3826.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
社會法要不要修就黃牛的定義的部分我覺得大家都有共識要修那我剛剛其實我再講清楚一點我們給行政機關各部會一個時間但也不是讓他時間太長各部會應該去檢討他們可以立專法的部分把它提出來然後呢有一些樣態呢是各部會沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3827.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3843.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
就算立專法也無法去涵蓋到的部分我們再把它放進來我覺得這樣子修法比較負責任啦這樣子才會讓社會能夠接受然後也給行政機關他們有壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3845.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3872.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我們就舉剛剛文化部的例子啊大家就這樣 他們就可以回去比如說我們給各個行政機關一到兩個月的時間不少你把它全部整理出來你可以立專法的 你什麼時候要立那你如果有一些你涵蓋不到的然後配合我們內政部 請大家來看如何把它寫下去寫得完整我個人的建議是這樣會比較好我們對社會對我們看我們立法的品質也會比較好啦我提出這樣大家想想看 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3874.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3879.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
主席,我是覺得像批論這個產業業的票券的問題,我覺得這如果用不好,你的地產企業自己的業者下去競爭下去檢舉,這樣就說實在很慘了 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3896.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3898.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
有時候做生意的人有時候看到那間好現在就透過白行行為來檢舉票卷的問題參卷的問題 這也是很大的問題因為我覺得我們要修法是 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3914.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3927.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
這不受幾個 要來處理 讓他發動的難道認真做生意的人大部分去考慮到說 要發展的時候覺得這也很簡單的 醫生好 大家針對這一條還有意見嗎好 我們請部會補充說明好不好有意見要補充說明嗎 還是跟剛剛一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3945.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3971.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
非常謝謝各位委員的高見那其實我們是跟上一次比較起來我們的主張還是這樣第一個社會秩序維護法當然是一個行政調查跟行政法但是你現在讓警察機關有太多的裁量權這個在我們法治社會裡面比較不那麼能夠接受一定要把它定在法條裡面會比較好那至於就是剛剛所說的那個黃牛的樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3972.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3979.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
已經可以處理黃牛樣態的部分在文化創意產業發展法還有運動產業發展條例那我們就尊重那現在呢在我們的這個討論裡面我們認為像醫療法還有參與實處法應該是由那個我們的衛福部或者是交通部他們訂定專法因為他們訂定專法的部分呢才能夠認定為什麼我剛剛說提到說給我們的警政機關太多行政材料各位都知道黃牛呢從它開始源頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4001.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4024.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
到開始販售然後到最後販售的結果引起的糾紛這三個的這個步驟啊如果你沒有辦法成就他是屬於黃流這樣的定義的話單純叫警察機關從頭開始從開始賣票到最後票結束然後有發生什麼糾紛這個的調查過程啊其實會讓警政機關有太多的行政材料這是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4024.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4026.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那再來就是剛剛所說的怎麼樣彌補所謂的空窗期我所謂的空窗期就是說醫療法還沒修正或者是交通部的觀光發展條例也還沒修正之前我們要怎麼樣處理這一塊第一個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4045.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4061.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
目前的64條有包括高金素美委員還有黃建斌 劉許廷 羅廷維委員所提的修正動議裡面有提到的這個部分我們認為它已經不是屬於行政調查跟行政法它已經是屬於刑法的範圍所以我們比較不認為說64條的修正動議要修正成這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4065.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4093.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
還有高金素梅跟羅廷惟委員 劉喜廷 黃建斌委員提到了附帶決議跟我們的想法會比較相近就是說我們能不能有什麼方式可以彌補這個破洞所以要規範的是所有的目的事業主管機關要把它規範進來非目的事業主管機關的部分只要是屬於行政調查跟行政罰可以做得到就剛剛有人提到我們的行政罰最高就給你罰三萬塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4094.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4114.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那還有就是行政教材基於警察職權他能夠處理的可以放進去的話我們是建議的不要用條列式的方式因為你條列式一定會掛一漏萬我舉個例子譬如說這邊有寫這個在這個羅廷偉委的部分他是寫非公自用那你購買有運輸票遊樂票藝文票券運動票券醫療票券參旅時數票券 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4120.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4147.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
各式休閒及商品票券而意圖轉售盈利者及轉售圖利者這個的認定光靠警察機關來認定就會出現困難什麼叫做意圖轉售盈利或者是轉售圖利我們如果沒有其他的這個包括說要有刑事的處罰的要件的話呢光是用這樣的方式然後就給他裁罰要一萬八或是三萬的話這個恐怕會引起更大的紛爭以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4149.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4175.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
好 謝謝行政機關的補充說明我覺得我們這樣啦這一條因為如果沒有一個詳細的文字作為基礎就鬼打架嘛一直講 講個沒完嘛我們請李博弈委員發言之後然後我們大家冷靜一下然後我們先走其他兩個法條好不好然後請李博弈委員謝謝 謝謝主席我講一個實例剛剛部長在講的這個就是有關住宿參旅這一個其實你知道現在旅展進去都在賣什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4176.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4197.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
有一半就是在賣餐旅食宿券那如果我們拿著這一條社會法進去讓我們警政署那個署長你看哪一個分局或者是哪一個縣市政府警察局哪裡有辦旅展拿著這一個法條進去進去這個旅展 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4198.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4217.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
大概會抓走一半的業者那我們是不希望發生這種事情所以說這個比較專業的法案我們覺得這個還是要回歸到官方法案條例這裡面去規範才不會造成社會的亂象這才是社會亂象啦這個再用白話跟大家說明一下 謝謝好 謝謝那我們這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4225.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4240.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
好主席我想建議一下就是說我們有沒有考慮這樣子因為剛剛進來大家內容的部分都還有很多的這個保留我們是不是把這個罰緩的部分提高變成是到三萬元以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4241.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4267.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
讓大家的裁量空間可以變高三萬元就是罰緩數額的部分但是原條文的內容文字暫時先不要變但我們出一個附帶決議附帶決議就是說要去整理要有這個各種樣態該走專法的走專法然後該什麼的可以什麼的這樣子是不是把大家的意思也包括進去這樣我覺得可能各個委員看看這是不是我們目前的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4269.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4276.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
跟我想的其實差不多謝謝蘇小慧委員的建議來 我們其他委員針對這樣子的想法有沒有什麼意見高進委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4278.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4299.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
高雄園覺得OK好 那我們這樣好不好 64條我們法環的部分先把它調高到最高嘛總是一個誠意嘛但是那個內容上這個到底票券有哪些因為其實體育藝文已經有專法對不對醫療票券掛號行為好像蠻特別的也應該用專法來處理啦所以我們剩下的內容的部分我們維持原條文這樣好不好該 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4305.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4328.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
沒有我們今天就先處理罰款的部分啦然後附帶決議的時候我們待會來做討論好不好我們待會一樣大家先看一下行政院的版本我們來做一下修改來看一下螢幕就改這兩個字就好啦下列也從一萬八改成三萬啦然後其他內容不變這樣可以嗎好那我們就照這個就變成委員會修正版本好我們修正通過謝謝再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4336.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4339.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
72條剛剛我們 兩位請坐我們不用罰站啦 大家都辛苦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4343.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4365.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
72條針對噪音的部分當然這個警政署剛剛的說明是第一個調高罰緩的部分尊重大院的決議嘛尊重委員的判斷那調高其實有好處但是實際上的問題當然在於實際上在執行的時候還是有些困難所以建議這個環境部修這個噪音管制法要做一些調整嘛那這個本席在那時候在在未還執行的時候也有提到這件事情那我們今天就回歸本職好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4367.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4377.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
這個民眾黨這邊的提案是一萬八千元邱委員提一萬元對吧 對 一萬元大家覺得 我們就從重吧一萬八千元好嗎還是說大家有數字有想法的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4390.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4419.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
不是,你固定這樣,你一聲來聽,雖然是你這個會鑒定到問題是不是原意解剖,我怕你如果鑒下去的時候,跟出民黨會叫來,跟我們環境局環保局來,跟檢察局確定說滿百戶,然後檢察局,沒有啦,這個是,有的說以下啦, |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4420.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4422.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
好像有提供資料對不對有資料對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4439.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4448.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
來 請那個署長說明一下112年 大概500件左右品茶道場有44萬人次的44萬這款五百件所以它的材料只有0.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4452.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4456.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那113年來大概44萬名是警察罰的只有199件這個裁判率只有0.07所以委員你剛才說的那個標準一對沒有標準沒有儀器嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4471.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4486.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
沒有標準啊,因為去查,是不是持續欠討,沒有,再持續,警察就把他罰,就做這樣的狀況就是,在這裡我就是說,那個標準,有沒有,有的大聲小聲的分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4487.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4512.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
對 這個是我們要跟環境部來做跨部協調看怎麼樣讓裁判標準清楚嘛但是在法條的規範裡面除了這個深夜喧嘩這一部分之外也有酗酒滋事啊 謾罵喧鬧啊有什麼善吹警笛 善罰警號啦那我是覺得這些罰六千其實也太輕了啦所以我是覺得把這個往上拉你至少聚眾滋事 酗酒鬧事是只罰六千我是覺得太少啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4513.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4522.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那是不是深夜噪音不管你發多少都會有執行的問題嗎這我們上次討論其實大家都知道啦那這怎麼來優化這個當然就是要後續有一些行政的作為嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4523.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4552.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
所以我們還是要針對還是要針對數額的部分有一個結論好不好 請照錄趙偉我覺得啦 你在公共場所齁啊你在那邊酗酒滋事 謾罵喧鬧不聽禁止這個重罰大家沒有意見啦齁但你如果深夜什麼製造噪音啦齁妨礙公眾安寧者這你如果真的一次要罰到一萬八我倒覺得這個一般民眾能不能接受啊你有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4554.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4580.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
齁在家裡你也不知道這個有很多嘛樓上那個有時候那個我們現在舊的房子那個隔音不好對他可能跑步這就噪音囉這就警察就要去囉對啊這樣子如果說樓上的就在踩踩地板啊樓下說他吵啊罰一萬八這點我覺得大家要思考一下我我認為這個應該要要要稍微齁不是一視同仁的這樣子這樣子罰啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4583.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4604.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
好 警政署還有補充說明嗎我這個是一萬八以下嘛法者震動大運的決定對 但你有裁罰基準對不對有裁罰基準那大概就是下限大概從三百塊到六千那看以前的案例大概都五百塊到一千塊左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4606.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4628.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
之前的法輪 我看那個案例來的就真的有大 應該是講大廈噪音的這部分嘛 夜間喧嘩對 因為它很難界定 然後又會引發林立本身所以 也不會罰重所以也是從這個底下開始往上這樣子對 但在這裡面裡面最嚴重的應該還是聚眾鬧事跟警笛警號啦 來 李博一委員 然後蘇喬惠委員謝謝 那個署長謝謝齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4631.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4654.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
你剛剛講的那個數據讓我們了解到基層警察同仁的辛苦就是去年度就出了44萬人次去處理這些相關的噪音那可能這些問題但是你講的另外一個有裁罰的是幾百大概比例大概0.070.0幾這個代表什麼這個代表警察去的是有用 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4655.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4677.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
沒有用要罰的繼續鬧 繼續炒那就是要罰的嘛那是不是在這個執法上的標準上分成兩個第一個那如果檢訓署的同仁去檢察同仁去了之後那最低的開罰標準你是不是行政上可以做一些調整嘛第二個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4678.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4706.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
如果是樓上樓下 剛剛洪祿召委講樓上樓下如果我們提高到一萬八之後我們先講問題會出在哪裡問題會出在我樓下我被炒的我就主張你警察如果沒有開一萬八的罰單我就要檢舉你啊我就要檢舉你堵職啊我們會不會造成警察同仁更為難的去處理這些相關的這一些這一些我們所訂定出來的設置法所以這個我也希望大家可以大家再綜合討論跟調整一下謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4709.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4730.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
署長現在有發生說沒有罰六千我就要檢舉警察堵職這個事嗎應該不會啦因為這裁罰的是我們有裁量權有裁量權好我覺得一樣啦今天大家都已經是很認真在討論了但我們還是要回到一部法條你要看的時候要整部法條一起看 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4730.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4745.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
所以我們這個社違法這個從這個構成要件這些的講完了之後呢到63條以後開始來跟大家說什麼樣的行為要怎麼裁罰處罰還還是是屬拘留這樣的狀況那我們從63條來看比如說63條的項目是什麼他說無正當理由攜帶具有殺傷力之器械化學製品或其他危險物品者 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4755.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4783.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
然後是三日以下的拘留或新台幣三萬以下的罰款這個還包括說無正當理由開啟破壞門鎖窗之安全設備工具者哇這些事情是三萬好然後再來呢如果是意圖滋事意圖滋事囉然後於公園車站啊這個航空站等等啊聚眾啊等等之類的已受該管公務員解散命令而不解散是居處三日以下拘留然後新台幣一萬八 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4784.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4798.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那如果大家這樣子一路一路看下去你看這個還有什麼對於非病死或可疑呀還有非病死或來歷不明的屍體未經報請相驗私自戀葬或疑似者也是三日以下拘留或一萬八 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4799.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4822.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那一直一直往下看你就会开始看到刚刚说的这个贩售票券啊然后还有为虚位的通议啊或者68条是说无正当理由于公共场所房屋近旁焚火而有危害安全之余者三日以下拘留或一万两千元好我这下面我就不再继续念了大家可以这样看一下我的意思是说 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4823.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4832.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
有这些这些这些行为包括饰养危险动物啊然后妨碍交通妨碍桥梁的通行啊等等之类的他都各有民定这样的状况 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4833.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4859.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
也可以看得出來當時在寫這部法律的時候其實是有經過整體這樣一個一個一層一層各種犯罪行為之後他鋪排了一個他的處罰方式那今天我們因為在修法我們單挑了一則說噪音然後出來然後就給他說從過去當時鋪排的六千直接跳升到一萬八我覺得這樣不太合理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4860.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4875.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
要修就要全部一起修不然的話我覺得只有這一條直接跳升到一萬八我覺得這樣有點奇怪沒有 我覺得我們為了要達成結論還是一樣要有版本如果就是說不是一萬八那哪個數字是比較好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4875.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4887.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我覺得大家可以橫評啦那剛剛這樣聽起來如果不是一萬八也許我個人的話那如果主席你問我的話那我個人會看到這裡的話我覺得這種噪音這些啊其實跟這種什麼擅自損毀路燈交通耗製啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4891.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4909.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
這個其實是差不多的我個人覺得維持原條文六千但我要求要有附帶決議要這個要立轉法這個噪音的部分要處置因為今天的問題對社會處理噪音的問題不在於法緩的高低今天的問題是在噪音沒有辦法被檢測以至於沒有辦法處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4910.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4921.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我覺得問題是在這裡大家要對症下藥不然的話即便我們現在把罰款在社會法提高到一萬八依然是處於無法處理的狀況我覺得我們剛剛討論都有一個誤區啦就是大家都只講深夜安寧嘛但這個事情還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4928.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4950.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
酗酒鬧事跟謾罵喧鬧嘛還有無正當理由散催警笛或散發警號嘛如果你用衡量性的標準我覺得這個要這個要增加因為我剛剛已經講了嘛就是說不管你怎麼修因為有儀器控管的問題跟實際執行的問題所以聲音安寧不管怎麼樣他都會有困難這個要另外處理啦所以我同意加一個附帶決議我覺得這OK啦但是我覺得至少什麼酗酒鬧事這種東西如果只有六間 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4951.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4974.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我覺得蠻奇怪的啦我覺得蠻奇怪的所以是不是左語調高我可以同意因為大家一開始在討論的時候是針對噪音來處理對 這比較容易大家但如果現在聚焦到說我們現在本條的三項裡面我們要把它區分成第一項和第二項是一個層次然後把第三項這個家庭住宅附近環境的噪音留在一個層次那我也可以接受我可以同意這樣分兩層好 所以數字應該要怎麼辦還是我們要再冷靜一下想一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4982.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4996.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
第二項把它調高在第三項為止要不然你真的要先跟旁邊唱一首套OK唱一首套OK來反正就聽了嘛,換轉而已但是劇重比較往上調而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5003.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5023.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
如果是這樣子啦剛剛我們法案組委有給我一個建議啦就是說我們現在喔 前面不是都有寫說酗酒鬧事啊 謾罵宣鬧 不聽禁止 對不對我們如果把不聽禁止者有沒有 也把它放在第三項裡面也就是說製造噪音或深夜喧嘩妨礙公眾安寧者不聽禁止者然後把整體的罰則都往上加 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5024.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5036.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
這樣你在執行上面會不會比較平衡也就是說我去我們當然其實實務上的執行或什麼都是先勸導嘛這就不會說因為旁邊有人上卡拉OK一通電話過去就馬上要罰錢不會嘛因為有個不聽禁止的條文在那邊做一個主勸嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5037.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5054.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
但是如果他還是這個因為其實實務上我們收到的大部分都是依然顧我啦所以我是覺得還是有一些調整的必要我剛剛看張志文委員張志文委員請好 謝謝主席那現在在討論的是有關這個社會法第72條可是我還是想說針對實務的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5056.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5077.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
有關於噪音的部分我是不是可以來請教一下那因為現在最大的狀況是有時候深夜會突發的噪音非常嚴重然後民眾打電話檢舉了以後可能現場的這個就沒有聲音了然後警察離開了以後又開始又開始吵了所以噪音問題我想是民眾非常重要的一個一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5078.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5107.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
重點那內政部的報告也寫說這個現在希望說一般民眾在檢舉噪音案件的時候可以自行測量並記錄噪音的來源然後提供裁罰機關作為證據那因為現在每個人所持有的這個儀器可能不太一樣所以因為今天我想那個署長很辛苦可是我想要請教環境部是不是可以現在這邊大家討論的時候可不可以提出來說一般民眾到底要如何來 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5109.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5133.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
來記錄這樣的噪音的一個行為未來不管提供給警察或者是環境環保局做一個裁量的一個工具或是說現在政府環境部是不是有一個APP可以來給民眾來做一個蒐證的工具是不是可以請環境部來稍微解釋一下可不可以主席等一下請環境部說明一下來環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5142.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5161.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
主席各位委員好那環境部在這邊做以下說明那其實我們主要已經把這個社會秩序維護法這邊所應用到其實它是不涉及儀器量測的因為就是它是屬於不連續性然後難以量測的這部分會歸到社會秩序維護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5161.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5179.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那假如說儀器可以量測的話我們在照管法部分就會來做一個規範然後甚至相關的罰則這個是我們來處理那剛才委員所提到說是不是有一個量測的要記錄嘛其實記錄的話基本上它只要顯示應該是顯示出它一個樣態是屬於 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5181.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5207.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
不易量測或者是不延續的比如說有狗叫啊或者是我們講說可能突然發生了什麼聲音那但是這種這種啊其實是儀器量呢他在這個量的時候其實他也沒有辦法來說明他超過標準但是他可以顯現出一個狀況就是他確實是不易量測而且造成這個那個影響者呢他 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5208.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5228.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
因為這樣子造成他的這個非常困擾的這種感受那用這個來做一些輔助的說明那以上是這樣建議 以上好 謝謝那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5236.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5240.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
好 我們大家稍微討論一下 還有沒有委員或是官員意見要補充的 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5262.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5288.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我建議一下啦 這樣子好不好我們剛剛私底下大家有討論一下就是有下列各行為影響者除以一萬兩千元以下的罰款第一 公共場所 公眾出入場所 酗酒滋事 漫漫圈道 不聽禁止者第二 我們把噪音這一段拉到第二項好不好就是製造噪音或深夜宣法 妨礙公眾來臨 不聽禁止者第三 無正當理由 散推警笛或散發其他警號 換個順序啦第二款 第三款 順序對調 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5291.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5311.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
好不好 如果是這樣子呢 大家覺得怎麼樣這樣可以齁對嘛 這樣有不聽禁止者嘛在比例原則上面他就會比較合理一點因為實務上他也是吃爆汗就是要去啊去就是勸啦 其實都一樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5312.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5326.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
報告委員我們的實務經驗大家都知道找警察來是要解決糾紛不是為了要開罰單對啦所以實務上對您說不好意思我剛在跟那個署長在講的時候不聽禁止是誰禁止還是勸阻 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5329.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5353.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
通常都是勸和啦就是說你不要再遭噪音然後就好啦我也不開罰單那但是就是剛剛張委員還是誰提到說警察走了又再來啦那這個就是勸阻啦你說禁止改成勸阻一阻因為禁止是一個很...第一項的禁止是原條文的對我們是比照第一項的法律文字啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5356.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5385.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那就是表示是警察來禁止那如果是譬如說管委會管委會管委會有自律如果說是公益大廈管理條例的話管委會他沒有警察權管委會沒有公權力啦所以到最後執行一定還是警察來處理對啊但是也有里長就是我的意思是說那種照一一而再再而三他一定是從里長開始啊然後再來到警察但我沒有意見啦如果大家覺得禁止是可以的話那就是警可是這樣給警察太大的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5387.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5397.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
主席 我覺得聽到保庭的說法 我覺得警察已經很沒用了把你變成這件事 都要給警察處理了這樣就糟糕了警察一天來處理出名單位的暗示炒啦 孩子背啦 孩子哭啦 破解毒品囚啦 破解什麼不關事 一直卡電話 叫警察來警察什麼都不要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5416.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5441.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
被反駁 叫他還沒贏啦 醫生我覺得啦 大家講的都有道理 也要考量實際的情況啦也不要變成這個社會法 到時候變成人民跟警察無所適從我建議啦 條文就這樣子修 但是我覺得罰款大概一萬塊我覺得 要折衷一下啦 比較大家可以接受啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5443.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5447.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
好 張宏祿委員建議就是說一萬 罰款一萬我徵詢一下大家的意見好啦 我們還是要有進展我們行政機關又有想法嗎好 我們就以委員會討論為主好不好可以嗎 那我最後再做一次支持罰款增加嘛 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5469.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5486.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
處理樣態做一個比較完整的規範處理的樣態還是要考慮到我們的警察同仁能夠做得到啦否則就是變成是講那我覺得留一個記錄好不好我們現在就是說依照現在本次修正條文的文字我們委員會的共識其實應該是一調高罰緩二 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5489.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5514.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我们就现在警察处理的形式并没有增加太多的改变我们没有对现行警察的处置方式改变我们反而是因为罚缓金额调高后增加了第二项是要到制造噪音的时候要到不听禁止才进入到罚缓的阶段 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5516.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5542.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
對我們的行為人的話行為人對行為人我們本件嘛行為人就製造噪音者來講的話他的罰環有被調高但他要經過一次的禁止因為他有不聽才會進入到被罰環的狀態這是行為人的部分但是對於過去的執行者執法者也就是警察同仁辛苦的警察同仁而言他們的執行內容及樣態並沒有在本次修法並沒有做任何的改變和要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5543.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5571.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
目前對警政署我們委員之間的共識是這樣不曉得我們的理解是否相同來請署長那我的看法是這樣子就是說實務上去處理這一些這個噪音也就是民眾報案的那如果不聽禁止可能會去兩趟所以是不是這個就不要再不要照原來的這樣就好了就不要再不聽禁止再提高罰款就好去採糧反而採糧 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5573.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5597.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
各位覺得咧一次就罰了一次就罰了再等兩次不去兩趟我第一次去給你勸導你不聽我已經回去再來第二次這樣的是這樣子啦就是說以實務上來講不管罰環的調整等等大家去其實都是先勸嘛但是因為你以現行的條文先勸很有可能勸的是未果啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5599.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5624.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
來來來你會講說有不聽禁止下一次來就罰勸的效果會變好啦我在想是這樣啦不是啦署長這個我覺得啦我們不要有先入為主啦你會覺得說他第一次去勸他都不會聽啦但也有可能他勸了他就聽了啊請提問署長你講這個大家是為這個執法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5627.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5647.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
明確性來增加這幾個字那署長反而覺得可能會造成這個基層員警的這些工作上的負擔那我再講再務實一點的說我今天晚上已經為了你這一戶來一次了那我已經回到派出所回到警察局了 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5648.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5671.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
又來檢舉又來報案又吵了我再去就是要罰了這個意思是這樣你也沒有辦法保證說你沒有加這個條文下去那個我們的基人同仁去到現場就可以會直接開罰他也不知道他會不會再被檢舉一次再被叫回去啊所以我們其實利益是這樣子希望說可以有效的喝止 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5672.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5696.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
對要不然他可能今天晚上可能要去三次五次都有可能因為你要反覆勸導嘛你再思考一下那我們還是會尊重相關的這些昨夜的這些實際的狀況我們尊重尊重好謝謝那我72條下列各項行為質疑者處新台幣1萬元以下是法環一 於公共場所或公眾得出入職場所需求鬧事 謾罵喧鬧不聽禁止者 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5697.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5717.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
二 製造噪音或深夜喧嘩 妨害公眾安寧不聽禁止者三 無正當理由 善追警笛或煽發其他警號者請問這樣 有沒有問題好 我們照修正條文通過 謝謝最後一條 跟騷一樣啦 這個就是罰則啦大家要休息一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5718.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5737.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
還是我們就趕救不要休息了然後來這個提高到三萬我看大家應該沒什麼特別提高到三萬啦好不好那我們照魯明哲委員版本通過可以嗎沒有咧來行政機關意見出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5738.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5755.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
最高三萬啊 魯冰州委員三萬啊其他有些超過有 他有寫到十萬的那個是延寬和委員的版本有委員的版本到十萬我知道 就是三萬所以我在講有下列各款刑懷之役的主三十以下拘留或新來幣三萬以下是罰還 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5760.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5769.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
是喔 拘留的部分應該是因為現在假新聞都要拘留三天啊對不對我這樣比例上是這樣啊沒有 就不要來 聽一下大家的意見好不好聽一下大家的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5778.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5798.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這個跟追的這個行為現在設置法是一個行政比較行政法所以如果這個行為的話如果要納入比較限制人民自由的部分我們建議是不要納進來不要納進來我們的看法是這樣子那至於提高挖款就尊重大英的這個決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5800.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5823.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
好 聽聽大家意見 請問各位委員增加防範OK 拘留的部分呢欸 署長你可不可以再補充一下 那個現行的狀況 因為就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5824.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5853.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我們上次我記得我們質詢的時候其實有提到嘛還是有蠻多其實還是有蠻多的樣態嘛對不對食物商在執行的時候裁罰的狀況怎麼樣我記得是大概只有每年大概只有30件這10年來這10年來大概總共大概300件一年大概只有30件這個數量也是很少一年30件一年30件差不多300件 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5863.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5889.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
如果我多一個問題好不好就是說大家思考一下就是說因為跟蹤騷擾這件事情如果它只是一個什麼偶發行為那可能你用拘留的罰太重但是如果是因為通常跟蹤騷擾感覺是鎖定嘛就是我對這個人特別有興趣就一直黏著他他如果是一個長期的行為的時候我們只有罰緩的話會不會不夠這是不是請警政署長說明一下那個那個幫我招來現在就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5891.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5916.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
裡面的這個第二項就是跟蹤跟騷擾因為我們現在已經有跟騷法了嘛所以這裡面的原條文是不要不要動不要不要動因為希望不要不要進因為跟騷法裡面就本來就要把它分開了不然你這會定義上會混淆那至於未來對於這個處罰的這種額度這個部分我們應該尊重大院的這個決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5919.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5943.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
主席 現在署長說的更三環已經有了啦那現在就是說他提高金額他沒有意見是不是這樣是是這樣也是所以一樣就比照剛剛嘛 樣態上我們不做調整是三環以下罰款或申請好 第一聽大家拍拍那邊的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5945.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5958.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
到底要不要拘留長時間的話的樣態有沒有辦法被防守住我要問的是這個啦就是跟追他的人如果是一個偶發事件你就要拘留對 他確實可能太重但他如果是一個我就是鎖定某些人做跟追等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5959.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5975.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
會不會有這個問題啦我剛剛問的問題我需要得到一個解答這個是這樣嘛齁但耕燒法有更明確的定義嘛要有更重的處罰嘛對啦所以如果說長期的那一種的應該是回到耕燒法裡面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5977.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5995.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
不對 我剛才有質詢跟騷法是在處理與性或性別有關係的所以我們現在是如果它本件它不是性或性別有關的跟蹤騷擾的時候它就必須回到涉違法所以我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5996.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6019.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
拘留某種程度等於是把這兩個人隔開也就是在這個根梢法裡面的這種什麼禁止相對人要保持要有一定的距離啊等等的這個那如果這個就是把他們隔開嘛那如果如果他是一個禍也就是裁量空間的話有拘留有罰還 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6022.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6050.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那也不是不行喔跟騷髮好像有一個範圍啦跟性有關啦好那這樣子的話呢大家覺得怎麼樣稍微是不是我們請司法院表示一下意見好請來司法司法院還是法務部法務部法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6052.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6077.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
廖參事再次登場我跟他越來越熟了跟委員報告一下就是說跟蹤騷擾法它的定義是比涉違法是更窄的因為它的要件設限比較多那如果不屬於跟騷法的才會回到涉違法這邊來嗎大概就是這樣的邏輯 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6081.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6104.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那拘留跟划還就是兩種不同性質的處罰拘留是自由法那拘留是財產法那到底要採哪一個這個是我們尊重主管都可以做嘛對不對沒有這本來就是一個立法權限就是說法治上沒有說不行但是要不要放進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6106.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6118.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我講必須要尊重主管因為這部法是主管機關在執法他們具有執法的經驗是不是需要這樣的協議所以我們尊重主管機關的他是意思說可以啦尊重主管機關嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6125.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6153.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
來 部長請補充如果要問我的意見我是建議說我們已經把那個罰款提高到三萬如果還是有這樣的樣態要變成有拘留的時候再來處理啦我為什麼要這樣講第一個現在大部分都是屬於跟騷法比較多跟追真的沒有那麼多那你局限人身自由其實在台灣是一個講究自由人權的狀態之下真的比較不好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6154.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6173.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我的意思是說錢先罰高一點啦我沒有意見我的意思是說站在我的立場上面因為你現在把跟追的部分要放到拘留那到時候噪音也要來增加變成拘留啦因為噪音也是常常會發生你旁邊只要有KTV店天天都有噪音的人要來檢舉啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6174.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6190.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
所以我是建議說局限人身自由的部分還是比較審慎來看待會比較好那這個當然是由大院的我們來做決定我們可以支持部長的建議然後我們就一步一步啦一步一步 逐步來處理各位還有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6192.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6207.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
好 那我們再看一下89條下列各項各款行為質疑者處新台幣3萬元以下罰款獲勝屆一 無證當理由為人失催眠術或是疑惑者二 無證當理由跟隨他人經勸阻不聽者可以嗎好 麻煩趙文會修正條文通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6208.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6231.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
等一下還沒附帶決議大家桌上有一個願板的但我們剛剛討論的時候其實有講嘛你不要去把黃牛票講說不要規範在這裡面嘛因為它有一個補破網的機制所以我是建議把那個以再由社會秩序維護法加以規範這樣去移除然後最後把請個還沒念完就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6234.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6246.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
說請各該票卷之主管機關就各主管票卷之黃牛行為於兩個月內研議修法以其中院內管理與查辦處與雙管齊下一支黃牛生產可以嗎可以好高鐵要跑來簽還有一個還有一個趕快還有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6258.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6270.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
沒有我上一次是宣誓的我覺得也可以啦高經委員意思是講說要守住基本原則所以要加強專職人力跟調查機制啦我覺得這個通過應該是沒有問題啦好不好這個你們看一下內容如果沒有我們就簽過去這樣比較簡單就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6276.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6292.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
沒有 他講不一樣的面向嘛一個是我們要加強各主管機關的專法這個是各個機關要加強人力跟實際執行啦就是宣示啦 我覺得是OK的好 請各位委員趕快剛剛我們修正跟附帶決議的部分我們趕快做簽名處理好 我們附帶決議兩項大家 我們就通過好不好好 我們來宣讀協商結論囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6305.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6305.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
妳要上嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6318.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6318.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
嘿嘿嘿嘿 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6351.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6360.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
來,站起來槍來,小慧,你借一個槍 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6367.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6395.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6395.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6397.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
沒有啦,這都是工的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6421.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6421.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
這裏就有裝飾 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6442.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6458.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
好謝謝報告委員會我們現在宣讀協商結論請宣讀社會秩序委員會法部分條文修正草案第九條修正通過第六十四條修正通過第七十二條第八十九條修正通過通過附帶決議兩項好請問各位委員照剛剛的協商結論通過請問有異議 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6462.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6490.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
謝謝無異議通過那我們做以下決議討論四項社會秩序維護法第64條條文修正草案等11案以並按審查完據你據審查報告提報院會討論請問在場委員要不要經過檔單協商不用謝謝本案與院會討論時由本席劉昭吉委員許庭做補充說明審查通過後之條文相關法制用語授權主管主席及議事人員進行整理好那麼本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6493.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6502.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我們就越來越早都回家了晚上就沒辦法早餐晚上晚上要早餐就沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6507.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6534.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
今天我不會讓他吃 今天我不會讓他吃對啊 每天的那些都遭到壓力都多大謝謝 謝謝市長 辛苦了 辛苦了可以可以 OK啦這樣可以啦可以可以 執行就執行就好對啊 好啦執行就好啦 我不信人家再請教下去對啊 對啊 人家再請教我們的動民 實在就沒用了 |