| IVOD_ID |
16638 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16638 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-01 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
22 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
教育及文化委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-01T08:30:14+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-01T13:43:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:12:46 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd62c05bd4558c40868bd03a951da4504b14bfadd538e1bbbfd6bbacbeac2417305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-01T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案。二、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案。四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公平發展法草案」案。五、審查委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案。六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案。
【僅進行詢答】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:14 - 13:43:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
224.821 |
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225.363 |
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谢谢观看 欢迎订阅我的频道 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1792.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1820.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好 各位請就座好 各位今天出席委員已足法定人數現在我們開會首先介紹我們立法委員黃宏威來 幫我先拍一下另外因為今天是五一勞動節 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1822.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1844.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
很辛苦的是我們的媒體朋友所以也借大家的手你們的辛苦大家都知道了來 五一勞動節給他拍一下這是額外的 額外現在那我來介紹我們列席官員首先我們介紹數位部的黃燕蘭部長林怡靜次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1851.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1877.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
林靜秀署長資通署的蔡福隆署長國家通信研究院院長林宇達財團法人電信技術中心林飛堂執行長財團法人台灣網路資訊中心黃董事長黃勝雄董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1880.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1907.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
財團法人資訊工業刺激會執行長 換敬裕執行長國家通訊傳播委員會代理主委 陳崇樹主委文化部 李敬會政次公平交易會主任秘書 毛浩傑勞動部政次 李建宏 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1909.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1916.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
職業安全署副組長張義武斌經濟部商業發展署副署長劉雅堅智慧財產著作組組長洪聖毅國庫署檢任集合楊伯亨 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1934.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1959.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
楊博存副稅署專門委員林美惠國科會辦公室代理主任郭子仙內政部合作人民司專門委員陳俊廷法務部參事廖江憲司法院行政訴訟懲戒廳法官陳彥寧 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1965.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1966.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
主計總署專門委員張正輝以上那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1978.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2003.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
現在本日會議正式進行我們新聞媒體與數位平台議價法的草案總共有四個案數位新聞發展與民主任性法草案等兩案的審查那今天我們提案人我們王宏威請他提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2009.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2030.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那就拜託控制三分鐘好謝謝主席以及現場的各位官員還有在勞動節還在上班的各位媒體朋友那今天呢我們這個相關的法規的制定就跟我們廣大的這個媒體業者跟從業人員有非常大的關聯 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2032.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2055.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
大家都知道媒體溢價法在國內其實討論了非常非常久尤其在國外尤其Google好像還有Facebook這些大型的數位平台他們長期是用無常性的來使用傳統的媒體的新聞所以在國內外都討論要怎麼樣去建立制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2056.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2079.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那麼以國外經驗來說現在在國際上大概有三種模式一個是澳洲模式就是商業溢價跟強制仲裁的模式另外還有歐盟的模式以及加拿大的模式為了促進數位平台跟新聞媒體產業能夠平衡的發展建立對等的協商機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2080.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2103.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所以本席的修法的方向我提出了是新闻媒体与数位平台强制溢价法那么我采取的就是澳洲模式强调商业溢价跟强制仲裁由公正的第三方以最终报价仲裁法决定数位平台应该给付给新闻媒体的授权金额 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2104.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2128.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
大家都知道我們世上媒體第四權是我們民主社會絕對不能夠缺少的角色而且它有監督公權力的義務但是大家也知道以台灣來說其實我們的媒體呢其實非常的跑爆核而且長期以來甚至出現了一些特定的媒體啊那麼長期是依賴政府的標案而來生存的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2129.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2136.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那其實這個都不是一個健康的一個趨勢所以呢我們認為應該用這樣的一個法令讓我們媒體的產業它的收益啊得到應有的合理的報酬然後以免我們監督政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2147.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2170.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
監督公共政策的第四權的功能示威另外我要特別講到在司法院對本席的提案裡面有提到合法秘密保持命令認為應該由仲裁庭交付給智慧財產法庭這部分我認為是可以接受的我決定也會從善如流 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2171.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2186.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
但是出發部最近示警說我們如果實施媒體溢價立法可能會引來美國的關稅報復我覺得這一點事實上真的是拿美國跟川普來做擋箭牌 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2187.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2199.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
而且在台灣尤其我們面對對等關稅事實上也都還沒有提及這一點如果我們就此未說然後因為所謂的美國壓力卻犧牲了廣大台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2203.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2206.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
媒體以及媒體從業人員的合理的權益我認為第一個這沒有真正的來捍衛我們媒體的權益第二個而我們所剛才我所提到的讓我們的媒體權是是為然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2220.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2245.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
削弱了他們監督公共政策監督政府的這樣的一個力量這樣子絕對是得不償失的所以我個人認為述發部這樣的一個說法事實上並不應該成為阻擋我們媒體溢價法相關法規的制定以上謝謝謝謝我們王宏威提案人的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2246.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2257.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
好那我再補充介紹我們本會委員洪孟凱委員張祺凱委員好現在台灣民眾黨黨團提案說明由張祺凱委員說明時間三分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2281.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2310.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
今天這個法非常非常重要而且事實上已經大家爭取了好幾年了它有兩個非常重要的第一個就是對我們整體的媒體產業跟環境有很大一個幫助第二個對我們的新聞從業人員幫助為非常非常的大今天我非常高興看到這個數位發展部提出支持新聞有價這看起來是大家是共同要努力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2312.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2338.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那今天比較大的這個爭議點就是剛剛黃薇在提的社會發展部認為會不會碰到高關稅的問題那我今天非常具體的跟大家講不會有這個問題現在民進黨提的是要成立一個基金所以會碰到這個問題國民黨現在提的就直接議價譬如說有TVBS或者有聯合報直接跟這個曾孤我去議價那這個問題就解決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2340.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2361.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那台灣民眾黨的提案是雙軌就是我們有民進黨提的這個基金又直接溢價這個方式那如果是會發展部擔心擔心這個碰到高關稅的問題我做兩個建議第一個我們先把法令把這個法制面把它做好不要因內廢時我先強調這句話我們先把法制面 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2362.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2392.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
可以議價的這一塊趕快把它做好今天這個案子最重要是什麼就跟時間是在賽跑啦因為拖太久了而且比較先進的國家你看澳洲、加拿大、歐盟事實上他們都已經跟這個大型的這個大型的像Google、像臉書他們都有達成了一部分的這個協議了那事實上他們這比他們第一個他們目前都是用無廠嘛對不對他平常在滑手機在電腦你就看到非常多都是我們台灣的媒體從業人員跟我們的這個媒體非常辛苦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2393.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2419.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
的這個新聞啊那現在變成是新聞是無價的導致這個媒體本身也這個長期是虧損的所以我們就是說第一個是跟國際的這個比較進步的國家是接軌的第二個對我們的產業還有我們工作人員都是有幫助的那很高興今天社會發展部也跟我們是站在一起的就是新聞有價這塊我們好好來做那第二個既然你們提出有餘力現在又碰到川普這個高關稅那這個很容易可以解決的 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2420.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2435.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我認為 包括這個台灣民眾黨啊我們可以 我們本來是雙軌那我們可以去贊成不見得要成立這個基金會我們就用直接議價 就我剛剛講的我們今天這個法例很重要我們就是通過這個立法之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2437.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2463.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
有一個法律的這個依據讓所有這個媒體可以跟Google可以跟臉書跟這個大型的這個社會平台開始進行議價這是今天我覺得是當務之急好不好所以不要擔心不要一捏會死說好像因為關公費的事情就沒辦法解決事實上是不會的那我簡單的報告一下這個我們台灣民眾黨啊對這個案子非常非常的這個重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2464.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2490.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
因為現在台灣的這個媒體環境確實是不好確實不好 它有兩個部分一個就是很多的媒體是長期的這個虧損那第二個也是很嚴重的對我們的新聞從業人員辛辛苦苦你不管是攝影或者是很多這個媒體人辛辛苦苦在工作到回來都是無償這個真的是非常不好那我初步算了一下我們去看了以前這個資料例如說Google它一年可能在台灣例如說可以賺到大概400億營業額 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2492.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2510.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那如果比較先進國家他應該大概是5%左右400億乘以5%應該就有20億那這20億的這個挹注如果臉書那邊也可以談出來或者比較大型的這個數位平台我們都可以透過強制的這個溢價給他法源之後有20幾億30幾億的錢進到我們這個媒體環境來那第一個我們的新聞從業人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2515.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2532.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
他們的智慧財產也受到這個尊重了新聞是有價的第二個對媒體本身也可以很大的一個改善好不好我們就共同趕快做這件事情今天最後做一個總結我們跟時間賽跑這是第一個所以我呼籲這個法要趕快過那第二個不要因淚匯食 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2533.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2553.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
包括台灣民眾黨本來是雙軌的我們可以在修等一下在討論的時候把這個基金會這個或許就可以把它修掉我們可以比較在這個強制這個議價這邊趕快來做好不好我們共同來努力很期待啦很期待今天這個案子可以趕快過那這個案子對我們台灣的這個媒體環境真的幫助會很大請大家共同來努力謝謝謝謝我們張其凱委員代表台灣民眾黨提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2561.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2582.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那因為提案說明委員其他未到所以我們就接下來請機關代表來報告那因為今天委員文化部也有公評會但是因為節省時間的關係也敬請大家書面參頁那只有兩個單位來做報告那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2583.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2594.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
就請數位部跟通傳會這兩個單位來做報告那現在請數位部的黃燕蘭部長時間希望在八分鐘以內 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2603.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2623.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
主席各位委員還有與會機關代表今天數位發展部很榮幸應邀到委員會來做數位平台與新聞媒體議價進度報告並針對大院委員所提的相關法案提出本部的看法懇請委員提供寶貴意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2625.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2638.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
蘇哈部自支持新聞有價自行政院交下媒體議價任務以來積極收集各國發展的趨勢包括強制議價權跟著作臨階權同時也關注媒體議價相關的國際政治情勢的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2645.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2672.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
認為媒體議價的立法仍需審慎評估說明如下 請大院指教第一 國際發展趨勢第一個是強制議價權強制議價權模式是由澳洲跟加拿大率先採行立法規定符合資格的大型數位平台必須和新聞媒體進行議價如雙方協商無法達成協議則需進行協調及強制仲裁的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2673.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2697.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
澳洲於2021年通過《新聞媒體溢價法》之後Google與Meta極主動跟數十家新聞媒體達成協議預計每年提供約2億澳幣的資金但是Meta於2024年3月改變政策宣布不再與新聞媒體出版商續約未來也不再展開新一輪的商業合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2698.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2708.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
加拿大在2023年通過《線上新聞法》之後Google為了爭取加拿大政府豁免其強制溢價權的義務承諾自2024年期每年捐1億的加幣為期5年但是相對的Meta為了規避強制溢價義務選擇全面封鎖新聞內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2719.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2736.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
導致新聞媒體流量明顯下降尤其對中小媒體的衝擊最為嚴重英國經濟學人雜誌指出加拿大原來原是透過立法輔助新聞產業結果反而造成傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2737.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2765.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
整體而言強資溢價權雖然利益良善但是如果Meta等大型社群媒體平台選擇停止提供新聞連結結果受傷害的反而是新聞媒體第二 國家國際發展趨勢第二個就是著作臨接權著作臨接權的模式主要是在歐盟各國實施簡單來說就是透過修改著作權法賦予新聞出版者 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2766.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2795.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
一項類似著作權的請求權數位平台如果需要用新聞內容就必須取得授權並支付費用目前歐盟27國就已完成相關的立法然而採取凝結權的方式未能有效改善新聞媒體與數位平台之間的談判權利不對等的問題雖然設有請求權機制實務正義正需由司法機關裁決處理時間冗長而且成本高昂對數位平台而言 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2796.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2815.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
儘管Google曾投入大量資源簽署授權協議但因法律定義不明,能產生很多爭議Meta於2023年底宣布在Facebook終止專門提供新聞內容的Facebook News的夜簽並表示未來不再簽訂相關的商業協議 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2818.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2842.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
另外一個我們要討論一下國際情勢的發展的變化挑戰美國自川普政府上台之後持續強調建立公平且富貴的貿易關係近期美國貿易代表署及副國家安全顧問都針對十項不公平數位貿易慣例發表聲明或評論指稱包括澳洲跟加拿大在內的媒體議價立法已經損害了美國經濟利益美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2846.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2861.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
政府認為澳洲和加拿大皆針對美國大型數位平台設限以資助其當地新聞出版商推估美國企業的造成傷害成本達到3.1億美元使美國企業處於不利的地位 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2862.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2881.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
在這種國際氣氛氛圍之下澳洲曾於2024年底提出徵收數位平台廣告年度營業額5%的法案隨即因為美國關稅保護威脅而撤除假如我國未來實施類似媒體溢價法也不排除可能引發美國採關稅保護措施的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2885.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2912.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
第四個本部隊相關草案的意見目前大院有林儲殷委員等擬拒新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案羅廷維委員等擬拒新聞媒體與數位平台強制議價草案王宏威委員等擬拒新聞媒體與數位平台強制議價法草案台灣民眾黨團擬拒新聞媒體與數位科技平台公平發展法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2913.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2935.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
林怡瑾委員等一具數位新聞發展與民主任性法草案范雲委員等一具數位新聞發展與民主任性法草案等六項法案大致採行強制溢價的模式希望建立溢價機制要求數位平台付費 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2937.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2947.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
並以調解或仲裁的方式來處理爭議部分提案已要求將部分收益用於改善新聞從業人員的勞動條件利益良善抒發部將持續追蹤國際趨勢並適時與委員溝通最後抒發部 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2954.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2980.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
堅持支持新聞有價的核心理念也認同確保媒體永續發展是行政立法部門的共識為鑒於當前國際情勢變化AI等新興科技的挑戰以及國內法治及配套措施的複雜性現階段我們認為以審慎參照國際發展趨勢廣泛凝聚社會共識方能兼顧新聞媒體發展數位平台合理營運 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2981.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3003.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
及社會大眾整體權益 以上報告進行指教好 謝謝我們數位部黃部長的報告現在請通傳會的代主委陳代主委報告一樣時間控制在8分鐘以內 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3008.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3025.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士 先生 大家早通常會奉邀列席貴委員會就新聞媒體與數位平台溢價法草案審查會議現在請在要提出報告於下請看書面報告第二頁這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3028.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3049.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
目前根據近期發展包括Google及Meta在內的美國國內與通訊產業協會已在今年3月正式向美國貿易代表署提交申訴書指控各國新聞媒體議價相關法規涉及歧視美國企業此舉對國內相關政策影響尚待觀察 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3051.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3068.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
接下來在我國現況部分請報告通常會負責的產業調查部分在第三頁這邊本會依據行政院跨部會協調工作小組在110年委外研究的研究結論大致如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3070.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3097.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
新聞有價 數位平台應合理的分潤研究也發現過去十年來 不論廣告市場或民眾接觸新聞管道均大幅移到數位平台電視新聞業者為求生存也投入相當資源進行數位轉型強化自身網站或大型數位平台的經營希望開拓受眾與財源但是業者面臨與數位平台合作透明度不足的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3099.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3122.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
來自數位平台的廣告分潤有限且不穩定投入成本與回報不成比例加上平台上有若干充斥詐騙的訊息影響媒體的品牌形象數位平台與新聞業者雖然號稱是夥伴關係但是這個關係是不對等的接下來摘要報告書面報告第4頁這邊後續的作為部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3127.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3149.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
新聞議價議題本質上是數位經濟時代傳統產業與大型數位平台市場力量不對等規範重點在於建立雙方公開透明互惠互利的合作機制通常會為廣電新聞媒體的主管機關支持新聞有價更尊重媒體專業自主 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3151.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3179.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
不論採行何種措施相關機制的設計均應該確保新聞媒體的獨立性不受不當干預本會尊重大院的決定或持續配合行政院協調小組織指示與分工於職長範圍內參與政策研議討論及產業意見的收集共同致力建構數位時代的健全新聞媒體生態以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3182.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3211.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
好謝謝我們陳代主委那以上就其以各單位的報告我們就請各位參佐書面資料我們就簡略並列入紀錄刊登公報來現在我們現在進行巡打先宣告以上事項巡打的時間出席委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3212.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3238.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
6分鐘 列席委員4分鐘因為今天我們是交通跟這個教育兩個單位啊這個聯席聯席會議所以時間就拜託大家就節省時間那委員花言在10點30分截止各委員如果有臨時提案請10點鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3240.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3255.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
提出以便藝術人員會診那暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則性不休息現在請登記第一位的洪孟楷委員執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3266.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3289.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
主席謝謝 麻煩請黃部長跟NCC陳代理主委好 那個黃部長 陳代主委好 部長好 代理主委好一直講新聞有價 NCC也講說支持立法但是到目前為止 我們都還是看到很多的空話 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3290.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3315.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我說實在話為什麼民進黨政府會讓大家覺得是說會反Face就是因為死刑有在那邊但是我們看到好像政府的方向跟策略都一直往反Face的方向走如果說我們講說酒駕零容忍可是當酒駕事件一而再再而三發生的時候我們不提高罰則不針對立法有任何的主張或是改變或是加緊加嚴加 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3318.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3347.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
更嚴厲的執行那酒駕零容忍是含假的那剛過去我們看到我們確實有往這個方向走是酒駕零容忍但一樣速發部也好NCC也好今天一直講說新聞有價可是你們的報告充耳未聞沒有讓我們看到有任何的版本今天有六個委員的版本六個不同委員版本跨黨派版本但我請教一下行政部門版本在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3348.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3372.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那個報告委員這個議題我想兩年前就有在討論不只兩年前更久所以部長已經先證實了這個議題已經講了至少超過兩年以上但是到目前為止版本在哪裡因為這兩年有幾些事情發生造成這個議題變得更複雜一個當然就是技術的演進因為AI的出現讓整個這個所謂著作的問題來部長昨天 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3375.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3393.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
媒體報導已經有報導了我想請教到底為什麼一開始我們要推動所謂的新聞議價法或是不管是任何人講的不同名詞新聞任性平台還是新聞議價還是我們相關的為什麼要推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3394.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3413.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
最核心的理由是什麼我們當然新聞有價這個是最核心的理由我們推動這個我們當然就是說認為新聞有價是用什麼方法去推動我們一直在做研究跟觀察不是部長如果說你沒有辦法了解最核心你是主管機關如果說我們連為什麼要推動這最核心的理由講不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3415.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3440.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那個報告委員您指的是說為什麼要推動對為什麼要推動各國不管是現在澳洲加拿大歐盟等大家為什麼要推動最核心的理由基本上就是說因為現在這剛剛講就是講說現在很多新聞確實是就是這個平台上的新聞要怎麼樣跟新聞媒體來共融這個事情當然是大家要去協商但是我還是跟委員講就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3441.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3462.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
最主要概念不就是因為新聞我們支持新聞有價我們希望新聞能夠獨立自主營運作業不受任何的干擾這其一所以他新聞有價嘛其二就是新聞媒體您剛講到整個市場環境有變遷所以現在新聞媒體的通路載具是完全不對等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3463.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3471.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
他面對到的是一個龐大的科技巨擘怪獸也因此個別的新聞媒體他可能很難去跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3472.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3498.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
社群平台來談判也因此才會各國有公部門來協助做一個平台嗎報告委員各國的意思在這邊如果是強制議價法就是澳洲但是澳洲這幾年實施下來就是我們針對的所謂的這個平台主要是針對Google跟Meta那事實上Meta這個整個的議價法在Meta完全不配合所以事實上這個我們觀察國際的這些發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3501.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3528.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
強迫議價法其實在澳洲只有澳洲14而且目前是沒有成功的所以部長本席剛剛有聆聽您的報告也聆聽NCC委員NCC主委的報告所以我都很理解但我們現在想要了解的是更進一步的部分就我也看到啊沒有錯我們一直是開放的態度六個委員不同的版本就是希望是我們往這個方向來走但重點是第一到目前為止兩年多來行政部門沒有版本這是具體的事實第二好 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3529.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3548.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
速發布的報告到目前為止你也沒有跟我們講說到底溝通了多少次結果NCC的報告告訴我們你們開了三輪八場會議好來我請教一下這三輪八場會議大型數位平台的對話會議誰主持 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3554.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3569.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這個是由事務發部還有NCC的副組委還有這個事務發部誰主持事務發部也是次長三位次長聯席來主持那部長有沒有掌握這三次的會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3572.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3589.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
有跟我報告不過這個上次會議都在有跟你報告就好我請教我們現在也看到本席我還是開宗明義強調我們往新聞有價方向但是怎麼樣來做我們現在等於是討論到怎麼樣來做嘛對不對好那我們現在不管是有所謂 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3591.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3606.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
澳洲模式就是所謂的強制溢價模式也有討論到像歐盟模式著作臨接權模式或是基金模式那我們這三場八場會議裡面有沒有更聚焦的方向或共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3609.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3629.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
謝謝委員的指導事實上我們都知道的確我們今天為什麼有這個會議是因為現在台灣的媒體非常的辛苦因為傳統上來講媒體的收入有兩種一個是訂閱的收入另外一個是廣告的收入那因為現在大部分的民眾都不訂閱媒體了 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3630.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3654.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
然後所以他們就沒有媒體的訂閱的收入然後再來廣告的收入都被Meta跟Google收走了所以我們就事實上從澳洲開始就提出了這個媒體強制溢價法然後後來加拿大也跟進了但是很不幸的是說這些方法在澳洲跟加拿大都受到很大的反挫各位聽本席的問題回答問題好不好你不要講大家都知道的事情本席剛剛問什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3656.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3672.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
就是有沒有是那個找那個委員會那個找那個各家媒體來溝通事實上我們不是我不是問這問題你問很多問題聽清楚聽清楚本席的問題再回答那不然你怎麼會部長怎麼會推你來回答謝謝那個不要這樣子藐視國會到這種程度來部長請您 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3677.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3691.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
告訴一下市長本席剛剛問什麼問題經過八次的討論以後因為這個是在我上任之前他剛剛跟我報告之後您上任之前八次會議是在您上任之前嗎對對對那八次會議是在我上任之前但是那個我上任之後是主要是跟一些工協會跟學者在討論這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3692.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3709.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那我得到的那個那時候初步剛上任的時候想法是那時候認為著作臨階權是比較可行的方案著作臨階權但是現在因為歐盟實施了一年多兩年也發生了一些問題所以反而是讓我們覺得說因為我們看到這個強制議價法有問題著作臨階權也發生一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3713.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3728.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
基金也有問題所以三者都有問題但公共政策來講其實某種程度上沒有百分之百完美無瑕的政策怎麼樣能夠達到我們的政策目標方向所以現在我們有沒有比較聚焦 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3729.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3745.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
現在就是說因為在這個過程中後來Google有個共榮基金這個一個機制這個機制在過去三年提出三億的共榮基金這個可能是一個model我們還在看因為其實就兩個公司而已一個是Google一個是Meta怎麼讓Google跟Meta願意把這個一些來補助國內的新聞媒體部長那為什麼要立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3752.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3778.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我們要立法的目的跟宗旨以及政府存在的價值就是因為我們絕對不可能把所有公共政策寄託在業者的善意上或是業者他自己今天想做那如果說明天不想做他不做所以有一些東西如果部長我們先肯定你剛剛講法是說你已經有先往八場會議有相對聚焦可能會以基金跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3781.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3807.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
駐駐隣接權的方向來走這可能會比較符合我們的國情但是不是最終提出來因為你的版本沒有可是重點在於是什麼重點在於是我們的立法還是要去有一個時程讓國人知道我們的國家方向是什麼來最後因為時間的關係最後我只請教一下你剛剛也提到就是兩家公司Meta跟Google |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3808.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3836.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這兩家公司大家也都會使用但是它的規模大小不應該存在變成是我們政府好像沒有辦法去跟跨國公司來做談判對不對所以我們之前也一直講到Meta也好 Google也好有一些詐騙廣告它的一個部分我們也要採取強硬的態度來 內政部曾經講之前一直講說沒有法源那我們也一直講是說你們速發部要找這些業者來喝咖啡 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3837.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3860.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
因為沒有法源嘛 但現在我們今天有法源了那內政部也講是說會診資料 會診網路平台詐騙廣告三月送速發布來裁罰現在已經五月了 兩個月過去了過去三十天我們最多的詐騙 現在也講詐騙的金額一直創新高那我們過去三十天裡面最多詐騙廣告投放在哪裡所以過去三十天我們詐騙廣告最多投放在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3867.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3890.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
速發部自己一樣是Meta來我們看一下下一頁你們的通報網百分之本席過去就用你們的通報網有來質詢過我也講這是你們上面的資料過去30天裡面百分之80以上都是Meta或Meta相關的公司好來回來上一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3891.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3899.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那這樣兩個月過去了過去30天至少有通報你們自己就已經有彙整就差不多快10萬筆那我們跟財閥 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3903.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3919.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
根據委員報告我們那個就通報我們只要在24小時內下架的話就並不違法那我們剛剛看到那個那都做到24小時下架嗎對 以我們訴發部這邊來講都是但是因為內政部那邊也有通報給那個META那內政部那邊表示說他有些他都配合因為國人的感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3923.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3950.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
國人的感覺過去有一些詐騙形態確實有比較減少但是詐騙有沒有進行還是持續有尤其是投資詐騙現在更加的猖獗那我現在想要請教的就是內政部收集3月送數位部裁罰那到目前為止有沒有裁罰半件到目前為止我們都還沒有收到內政部還沒有收到內政部2月6號跟我們講說要送速發部結果過去三個月了 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3952.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3961.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
內政部沒有送到辦件來2月6號的中央社新聞內政部說3月要送抒發部裁罰就剛剛次長講的大白話 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3963.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3991.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
到現在5月1號了內政部兩個多月的時間沒有送辦件來給抒發過裁判難怪詐騙猖獗啊難怪詐騙滿天飛啊政府在忙什麼因為他要送來要檢出一些證據我們是在談哪些證據應該檢附我們才能夠做裁判所以這個也有費了一點時間因為他是要檢附台灣是第三世界社會我們中華民國是第三世界國家是不是內政委員會就在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3993.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4011.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
走路兩三十秒然後結果你跟我們講說二月的時候跟我們講說要裁罰結果現在兩個部會在踢皮球到現在沒有裁罰半件還不是沒有裁罰半件是連送來都還沒送來部長為什麼我現在那麼生氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4012.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4042.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
就是因為兩個部分過去你們一直跟我們講是說我們要有法源依據立法院要修法才能讓你們去裁罰我們去年是不是打造三法打造四法打造五法都要打造幾法了通過了沒通過了那你們現在有武器你們不用那詐騙過去二月有下降我們看打造儀表板差不多六十億三月突然又上升快將近百億 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4044.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4071.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
欸不要以為被詐騙不關你的事欸可能每一個個案都是一個破碎的家庭我之前就已經講過了結果到現在你們跟我們講是說兩個多月過去沒有裁罰半件然後那支沒有送過來是不敢跟Meta不敢跟Google這種大公司開刀是不是我們會說24小時下架不下架我們會裁罰目前他們Google Meta完全配合這一點所以這個沒有問題部長我沒有辦法接受你的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4072.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4096.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
是因為剛剛市長已經親口證實了連資料都沒有送來速發部你怎麼有辦法告訴我們是說他們配合就是我們這個我們速發部跟那個內政部都有在做打詐的工作我們這邊會通報那個把那個疑似詐騙的廣告通報給Meta然後內政部那邊也會通報給Meta那我們這部分我們速發部就是處理我們速發部利用網詐通報查詢網 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4098.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4116.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
查到的那些疑似詐騙或已經確認為詐騙我們通報給META那這一部分我們就是我們速發部就是處理這部分的工作謝謝好 那個部長我跟你講紅委員要的就是你們沒有說到要精準喔不要有說到說沒有說到那如果沒有說到 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4118.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4138.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那個洪委員已經擠出這個問題我希望部長你要去把他督促最後一定要去跟洪委員來做報告因為這個嫌疏很大內政部說有你們說沒有那這個公文跑到哪邊去所以我要拜託黃部長你要把他當成因為洪委員執行了這個他重點在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4139.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4163.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
如果你們收到你們不開華那當然他就會針對你們那如果內政部沒有送來那當然內政部有問題所以這個你要把它理清楚回報給我們孟凱委員好不好整個政府過去這幾個月螺絲真的鬆了還是整個政府從上到下都在忙的打壓政敵對付政敵 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4166.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4191.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
所以當看到行政院長下鄉六日就講罷免然後結果我們最應該幫國人防詐 打詐 開罰沒有收到非常離譜部長 你是一個我過去還算尊重的專業人士該專業的時候請一定要專業謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4195.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4201.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
好 謝謝我們洪孟楷委員現在請林宜謹召委執行謝謝主席 有請黃部長 蘇發部黃部長蘇發部我們黃部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4219.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4238.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
黃部長好我想健全的新聞報導環境有助於民主社會的發展這是之前速發部召集大型跨境數位平台與新聞業對話會議中那數位平台跟新聞媒體業者都認為的具體共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4239.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4254.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那我想健全的新聞報導媒體要怎麼塑造那本席認為最重要的就是要保障新聞的自由跟基層的媒體從業人員的權益那本席上一屆跟這一屆我們都有提出喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4254.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4272.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
就是所謂的數位新聞發展與民主任性法草案那這個草案我們期盼透過新聞有價的這個基本價值來提振台灣的這個媒體環境那本席之前有提過新聞媒體面對了三大困境第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4273.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4299.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
新聞依賴這個網路平台導引流量而網路的流量又受到大型的跨國數位平台的載制第二個困境是新聞產製的方式受到跨國平台的制約所以它報導的內容 標題會受到演算法被牽著鼻子走導致有很多大家所詬病的內容農場啊 調標這種亂象 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4303.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4324.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那第三演算法也被大型的跨國平台掌握所以這個演算法到底是如何的運作我們也無從得知可是它已經造成媒體產製內容的矛盾那我想世界各國大概也有都面臨到這樣的困境那台灣在這樣的困境底下受到威脅我想是更加的危急 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4325.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4344.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
前META全球公共政策總監他前陣子就有公開指控說META跟中國政府的密切聯繫有內容審查相關制度而台港的用戶的熱門內容就是受到審查的一部分那有內容審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4347.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4374.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我們媒體就是最怕說沒有流量那如果說發了一個讓中國不開心的新聞或貼文那有可能就導致被消失或限制流量等等那發了新聞必須躲東躲西喔那不僅影響那個新聞自由那我想中國也更可能藉這個手段來控制台灣的輿論在這個灰色地帶來侵蝕台灣的民主社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4375.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4394.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
所以本席就想要問個直接的問題面對這種大型跨境的數位平台可能的內容審查那台灣要怎麼樣因應那上週蔡其昌委員質詢的時候他有速發布是說希望美國能強迫他們公開內容審核的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4396.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4411.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那我想請教抒發部你是否有辦法在我國來促成審核機制的公開另外就是說促成審核機制公開後那抒發部的規劃要如何具體著手處理這些問題 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4413.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4429.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
報告委員那個確實是剛剛講Meta這個因為這個有這樣的一個新聞我們很關注那我們也知道說事實上這個是在2017年以前那後來2019年Facebook就放棄了中國大陸的市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4430.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4446.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
所以現在就是說如果中國對Meta Facebook有影響力我們還需要再關注那至於說現在這個因為這個美國公聽會現在在對這個議題在進行偵查所以我們當然持續跟Meta溝通我們也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4446.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4471.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
在這裡面他也要對我們公開所以我們這邊在同時進行就是我們同時看美國在這個公聽會的一個結果同時看台灣的這些目前的審查的方式他要對我們公開然後我們也會接受申訴然後看看怎麼樣再跟Meta那他就至少這個演算法怎麼樣的貼文要被下架必須要透明公開這個是我們會跟Meta去要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4472.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4489.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
好 那我想目前速發部他針對所謂的媒體議價法的態度看起來是支持新聞有價您剛也一直在強調可是對立的專法似乎好像就不那麼明朗那從上屆本席提出到現在也差不多兩個年 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4490.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4506.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那這不法的推行的過程我想最主要面臨到的困境您剛在那個口頭報告的時候也有稍微提及喔那如果說暫時推不成那我們到底有什麼樣的替代方案可以回應媒體界對這個法的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4507.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4536.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
什麼時候再找這些大型的平台業者媒體學者再次來討論同時也想請教NCC跟文化部你們認為媒體業低薪高工時的這種窘境有沒有辦法來扭轉還是可以再做些什麼樣的努力來提升基層媒體從業人員的薪資跟勞動條件先請速發部回應然後再請NCC或勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4537.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4540.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
我們的那個策略我再請次長先補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4542.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4560.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
目前我們在想辦法提升台灣媒體的收入我們是跟現在最配合的公司之一是GoogleGoogle他做了兩件事情第一個他是捐了三年三億台幣的基金現在交由DTA台灣數位產業經濟協會由他們來讓這個基金然後想辦法來幫助我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4568.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4595.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
台灣的那個媒體業就是改善他們的狀況另外就是說Google他們也成立一個所謂的北極星計畫就是要輔導各家媒體改為收費制因為現在大部分台灣媒體都是不收費的那美國的那個Financial Times因為他們的收費機制做得很好所以Financial Times他現在會在全世界幫各國的媒體做這個方面的就是轉為收費機制的輔導工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4598.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4614.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那所有這些費用會由那個Google來支付謝謝是那我再補充一下就是說其實除了這個以外還有技術面我們希望是說幫助媒體做數位轉型提供一些AI的工具這個能夠找到新的商業模式所以這個也是我們還在努力那其他問題是不是請 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4617.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4634.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
通常會這邊跟委員補充報告兩點第一點我們NCC所管的廣電媒體他們會有一些營運計畫我們要邀請他說營運計畫理由涉及到公司內部治理的一定要相關的法律事項相關法規比方說勞動的相關條件那些一定要符合法律事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4635.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4649.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
這是第一點第二點補充是由於媒體競爭激烈包括網路媒體一般傳統媒體我們希望他在流財引財方面要有吸引力說必須要請他們要行政次長他們這方面要特別要提升他們的一些待遇以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4650.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4677.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
好 那除了前述我們提到的這個媒體業勞動條件需要提升以外本席認為其實相關的部會我們都要去追蹤了解就是新聞媒體的創作跟轉型創新跟轉型我們看到數位經濟暨這個產業發展協會與Google有達成協議喔就是說要協助Google管理並執行這個台灣新聞數位共融基金的計畫那協助台灣新聞的媒體做創新跟轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4679.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4701.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
只是說要內容具原創性又具公益性的新聞媒體都可以適用那不過我想有一個疑問的地方是說那這個是一個短期的計畫那如何轉換成長期的機制那來回應說新聞內容產製的付出以及它應該要怎麼樣跟大的這個平台來斡旋合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4703.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4728.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
來斡旋合理的方案那似乎這好像都還有待商榷那在這個同時我們應該要保障所謂的這個撰寫地方的新聞或促進那個媒體多元化以及這個服務特定社群的小型的媒體業者或大型的媒體公平的競爭的權利所以有關這個台灣新聞數位共同基金這個討論的運用以及小型媒體的保障那不曉得部長你怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4729.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4757.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
因為我們素產署跟Google有不斷的溝通我請素產署補充回答跟委員報告我們跟委員一樣關心這個的長期性所以我們跟Google來督促一下是不是將來永續性的一個做法不過Google說因為他這個三年還有一年多他希望觀察一下這個的成效雖然目前已經補助40個案子了但是他還要持續觀察這個成效再來決定下一步當然他有新的剛剛市長報告過的北基新的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4758.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4774.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
對 這個也是他會有新的其他的措施一直出來至於這個共榮基金他還要觀察這三年的執行的狀況以上好 那最後30秒我想跟部長請教說有關於這個文本與資料探勘就是所謂的TDM的這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4775.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4789.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
速發布要如何設計我國規範的架構簡單來講就是說TDM這個技術是巨量的資料的蒐集為基礎那將這些資料進行擷取重置或編譯 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4792.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4811.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
變成可進行開採分析的資料庫來便於這個分析利用那我想在這個人工智慧的應用上是個普遍的應用可是TDM的過程也牽涉到著作權侵害的這個疑慮所以很多國家其實都嘗試著TDM的相關法規的調適那一方面也放寬TDM |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4812.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4838.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
技術應用的這個限制二方面我們也要著重著作權人的權益所以像歐盟的數位單一市場著作權指令的修改他就為了著作權法設計了例外規定那請教部長說那我們組長AI監管的書發布要怎麼樣跟經濟部制裁局來溝通來因應TDM技術的發展那目前不曉得我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4838.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4843.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
有關於這個TDM的這件事情因為我們在做這個AI訓練語要的時候呢涉及如果說這個著作權保護的這個議題的如果機器訓練的時候需要拿到這些資料來訓練的話那就涉及這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4866.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4884.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
助索權重置的問題但是為了解決這個問題以及現在尚未立法所以我們這個速發部就訂定了一個台灣主權AI訓練語料授權條款第一版那這個版本還要跟這個製裁局一起來協調內容之後我們就會釋出讓各界來運用好 時間關係 謝謝謝謝主席好 謝謝林宇錦召委現在請吳麗華委員執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4902.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4905.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
謝謝主席 有請蘇發布黃部長蘇發布黃部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4913.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4941.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
部長好 大家都很關心如何來提升媒體的收入那今天我們也看到交通跟教文聯席排了這個新聞媒體與數位平台溢價的專報那我這樣子說 如果我們去看目前國際所做的大概有幾種模式像著作臨接權 強制溢價 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4942.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4965.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
或者平台課稅那如果我國要立法部長您傾向哪一種模式報告委員那個我們沒有特定立場但是就是跟大院來商量不過這邊因為我們現在看到因為過去我剛有強調因為過去這兩年一方面是技術的演變一方面是這個所謂的國際形勢的演變變成每一個法都產生一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4966.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4981.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那我們看到幾個像強制溢價權就是主要是澳洲跟加拿大那目前因為這個目前看起來是不成功的至少有些報導是這樣那歐盟這個也有遇到一些問題就是他們的著作權著作臨接權 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4982.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4997.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那共榮基金就是這是一個在台灣目前有在進行的所以我覺得就是說但一個是我們在立法上我們還需要一起觀察就是說現在只想說在這個時間點可能需要再做進一步研究我們擔心的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4998.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5025.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
太草率立法會造成不是幫助是造成傷害所以我覺得這個可以再稍微等一下但是呢我們同時繼續進行這方面的研究尤其是對於強制溢價主要是看澳洲後續主要還是一樣除了Google跟Meta這兩家公司在這邊他下一步會怎麼做目前這兩家公司Meta是完全不配合那Google是不是會再進行下一步在跟澳洲有些合作我們也還在觀察中所以我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5026.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5055.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
如果在這個時間點加上國際情勢非常不清楚的情況之下未來當然我們希望盡快把這個問題能夠確定然後我們當然要趕快立法來解決這個讓所謂的新聞油價能夠落實不過在這個時間點的確這三個法都有問題所以就說草率的立法不見得是對新聞媒體是有幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5055.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5081.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
好 謝謝部長第一個您就是肯定新聞有價第二個呢 您也希望禁訴立法那第三個呢 目前要採用哪一種模式我想你目前也講不出來嘛但是我從數位發展部今天的專報我有看到您剛才在其他委員質詢過程中 您也有提到像以澳洲來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5082.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5095.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
Google或Meta他們呢原本是主動的跟幾十家的媒體達成協議也預計要每一年提供2億澳幣也就是大約台幣40億的資金可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5098.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5116.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
他Meta 你講到Meta比較強硬他在2024年3月就改變政策 宣布不再與新聞出版商續約未來呢 也不想要再展開這樣的商業合作模式那加拿大呢 他也是在前年2023通過線上新聞法 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5120.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5147.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
可是他也願意2024年起每年捐贈1億加幣大約台幣23億可是他也是相對的這個Meta為了規避強制溢價您剛剛一直提到的強制溢價選擇全面封鎖新聞的內容導致新聞媒體的網路流量反而明顯的下降對那些中小型的媒體衝擊最為嚴重所以呢英國經濟學人就說啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5148.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5155.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
就是我們原本想要透過立法輔助新聞產業結果反而造成傷害因你看到底是哪裡做錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5158.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5178.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
主要還是在於說因為我們主要針對剛剛講就是Google跟Meta這兩個公司嘛那以Meta來講它其實很簡單它就是我的流量裡面屬於新聞的流量只有不到3%我當然就因為這樣關係所以他們就比較沒有那個意願來配合所以我想主要還是回到市場面也就是說自我這個東西它 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5180.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5208.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
他來做這個事情會增加他的營收或增加的流量他就會考慮所以還是回到市場的基本面就是這個東西到底意思就是其實回到市場來看沒有那麼理想市場的話就是說這兩個公司來配合還是要回到市場那當然就是說我們當然是希望我們能夠經過立法讓他們願意來配合那同時也幫助共榮的意思就是說同時幫助這個平台公司跟請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5210.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5227.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
那我們目前國內的平台像Google Meta他們對於我們要立這個法他們的立場是怎麼樣他們的立場基本上都有表示反對啦那細節是不是那個因為很多談判是我們次長去談的來次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5230.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5255.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
目前Google跟Meta都表達反對的立場我們都有詢問過他們他們也經過美國商會沒關係我就是要聽而已就知道他們的立場因為現在全世界有一種風險叫做川普風險那我不曉得說當川普上任之後他們也發表十項不公平數位貿易慣例 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5256.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5280.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那指稱剛才提到的澳洲也好 加拿大也好那些在內的媒體一家立法已經損害到美國經濟的利益那我不曉得說當美國政府認為對他們的Google Meta結果別的國家造成他們的潛在的成本會增加那麼多那我請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5281.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5303.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
我們有沒有評估過如果立這樣的法會不會引發美國報復性關稅措施我個人的判斷是很有可能因為他已經對澳洲加拿大有提出這樣的一個要求所以我想任何一個新的要求新的這樣的立法出現美國政府一定會採取相同的態度所以你們評估可能是會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5304.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5319.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
好但是重點我們還是要提升媒體收入啊新聞有價那食物上我想很多問題像包括如何分潤是用流量分使用量還是要設定集聚還是有其他更好的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5320.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5348.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
那當平台跟媒體談判的時候這種包裹的談判到底是要一季分一年分那對媒體到底有沒有利那到底是對大型媒體有利那對獨立媒體有沒有利還是大型媒體根本不屑因為他的分潤金佔營業的收入根本就不高那甚至是那些獨立媒體他的流量本來就不高那他的分潤呢他算起來也根本沒有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5349.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5374.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那到底我這樣子講的意思說有沒有評估如果法案通過之後對於這種不同規模的媒體大型小型不同性質的媒體 紙本啊 電子啊 獨立啊 Daily新聞深度影音有沒有去做這些細微不同程度的影響的分析有沒有去針對這些不同類型的規模的這些媒體有沒有問過他們對這個法案的意願 有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5379.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5401.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
跟委員報告我們在過去這一年的期間我們不斷的跟媒體還有跟各方那他們的看法怎麼樣對那現在其實最大的問題就是流量那以這個META來講的話這是去年11月我到META去拜訪那個加拿大政府的時候他們秀給我看了一個截圖就是META因為在加拿大通過那個媒體議價法以後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5401.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5429.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
他就在上面把所有新聞連結通通block掉了所以我在加拿大我嘗試連線CNN或者是連線那個加拿大當地的媒體上面都會顯示說在加拿大你不能看到這些任何的新聞媒體所以META的回應方式就是讓說根本就沒有流量所以我們要用流量來分潤的話這個已經是不可行的這是他一個商業行為他就選擇他退出他就不再提供任何的那個媒體好 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5432.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5446.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
因為主席站起來我其實只是說大家都很關心但是我們也很想知道到底各個媒體他們的想法是什麼甚至是到底有沒有對新聞媒體去做定義了 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5447.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5464.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
像有的像端傳媒他只是新加坡註冊在台灣的分公司那像報導者他是基金會成立的新聞機構那又或者像一些自媒體又或者是公管集團其實對於定義這件事誰能夠被納入誰能夠談判誰能夠分潤 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5468.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5494.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
像我們談的這些都是過去我們看到平台無償使用新聞那剛才部長您有提到現在的變化就是因為AI也是無償使用新聞那到底他甚至有一些媒體去檢視之後發現checkGPT的流量還最高高於平均那他大量使用媒體的資料來擴充他自己的資料庫那沒有獲得授權甚至付費 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5495.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5520.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那納入法規要怎麼研議或者人工智慧法那邊要怎麼處理所以我想你們也沒有版本但是又一直說支持新聞有價想要提升媒體的收入到底有沒有辦過公聽會我們全部都不得而知那我想今天排這個專報就是希望我們要審慎的評估討論那希望把這件事情做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5522.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5541.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
謝謝委員建議 我們會持續會開公聽會嗎我們會持續跟媒體溝通會公聽會公聽會或是以訪談或是各樣的會議形式我們會進行各種會議形式不要公聽會公聽會也是 公聽會就是立法院公聽會嘛這個我們在看或者各地的分區座談都可以分區座談我們會繼續好 繼續努力謝謝部長 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5547.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5572.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
好 謝謝吳麗華委員現在請葛如今召委執行好 謝謝召委 謝謝主席我們有請速發部黃燕南部長好 黃部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5578.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5580.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
部長好資料 資料 資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5582.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5609.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
沒有資料我們可能就沒有文化沒有主權也不會有AI那我們現在又面臨了這個美國中國他們也持續的在發展那我們現在談到這個媒體溢價法的時候其實我們也看到了速發部的報告裡面也很清楚寫了倘若我國未來實施類似媒體溢價法不排除美國採取關稅報復措施其實剛剛的質詢你也提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5610.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5636.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那我們也可以看到川普當時拿出這個小板板上面有台灣這個64%其實底下有一行小字啦就說這個非關稅壁壘包含在內所以如果我們這個媒體溢價法放進去很顯然的非關稅壁壘對美國來說就是提高的我想請教一下部長關於這件事情還有這個媒體溢價法可能造成的風險有沒有跟我們的關稅談判的團隊來同步過 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5639.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5658.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那個報告委員那個我們這我們現在是我的我們會有做這樣判斷是根據美國對澳洲跟這個跟那個加大那市長也有談判過所以我們是根據這樣判斷然後這個市長有去談判斷稅談判的團隊知不知道知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5659.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5681.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
是 報告過了有報告過了我想這個訊息很重要啦大家要同步一下那我想速發部這裡在這個部分也做了很多功課也非常感謝也希望我們的政府各部會也都非常清楚那另外我們也看到中國大陸現在發展AI它因為它的政治體制非常特殊所以呢它可以無所不用其極的取得各種資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5682.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5710.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那台灣在發展AI的時候呢因為台灣的著作權法可以說是舉世嚴格啦這個甚至還有刑法的罰則所以導致呢我們台灣的大語言模型的團隊在訓練的時候資料不足那當然我們知道資料是有價的可是現在就卡在這裡嘛人家有很多資料啊他可以拼命的訓練啊越多資料的AI可能就越聰明那台灣如果沒有資料已經不夠了我們又用了這樣子的一個媒體溢價法 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5711.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5730.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
當然我們還是認為資料有價可是我們如果卡在這裡不能進也不能退會不會造成我們的AI沒有辦法往前進所以我一直在行政院的院會質詢當中我都不斷的請教各個部會那現在書發部也是這塊的專業你們讚不讚成由行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5731.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5749.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
可能其中的部會甚至也許就是速發部來建立國家層級的AI訓練資料庫來提供AI訓練所需要的這些資料當然也提供誘因因為其實媒體提供的這些新聞內容說不定也可以放進來做這個資料庫的一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5750.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5769.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
這個部分有沒有可能來支持一下報告委員這個方向跟我想這個是沒有錯啦因為在AI的發展一定需要資料那台灣我們所謂的主權AI我們必須要有自己的資料所以我們在蘇發部資料創新師對這個議題有嚴定的一些條例跟一些方法我是不是請那個市長來這邊做個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5772.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5785.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
報告委員就是有關於AI語料庫的訓練我們的做法是這樣子在過去我來講其實政府已經有5萬多筆的開放資料只要是標準授權的資料都可以讓各界來做運用包括語料的訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5786.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5796.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那當然大家可能會覺得說我們現在訓練的資料必須要是語意連貫的自然語彙的方式所以大量這些文本的資料可能涉及著作權保護的議題我們國家的著作權目前沒有對AI訓練語調做一個額外條例的修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5804.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5828.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
但是在此之前我們也不會就是坐著等我們現在就是訂定了一個就是台灣主權AI訓練語料庫的授權條款那這授權條款我們會再跟那個制裁局一起研議之後如果這個妥適性可以的話我們就會對外來公佈什麼時候會有結果預計時間表我們在5月初的時候就會找制裁局先來學者大家先來研議那如果合理的話我們就可以把這樣子的一個授權條款釋出 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5829.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5852.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那希望加速啦但因為這個資料庫也需要誘因那部長其實你也很了解區塊鏈的技術如何保存如何加解密如何做這個所謂的剛剛也有提到像分潤這種機制我覺得像資料點子資料經濟的做法我們希望要有一個國家級的訓練資料庫這個可不可以請部長來演繹一下我們再演繹再跟委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5852.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5873.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那當然我想速發部自己作為這個軟體還有數位產業的這個部會我想近期呢衛福部有委託工研院來進行一個平台的計畫那預算呢是高達上億啦這個去年大概是4億今年可能還會追加2點多億那但是呢發生了有這個挪用美國的這個開源軟體來做修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5875.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5890.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
但沒有清楚標示的這個狀況所以我們還是想要來請教一下速發部有沒有掌握部會在這個採購案上面對於開源條文的落實的情況這個速發部有沒有做一個全面的盤點跟理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5891.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5920.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
否則我們的政府部會 這個很高的預算左手發給右手 結果呢是用開源的軟體比例根本就不清楚 也不知道怎麼查核這塊有沒有在進行委員講得沒錯 開源軟體現在是一個使用開源軟體是一個趨勢啦那怎麼去做規範我是不是請那個蘇貞淑跟委員報告我們有一個政府軟體採購的共同供應契約我們會講Expo那有沒有推到各個部會對那個是我們幫各個部會去訂約的那他們有沒有一定要用 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5921.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5947.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
有沒有看一下他們用的情況他們很多都有用好這個部分要持續了解不然的話為什麼我們今天為什麼會出現這個狀況那開源授權的教育跟合規的這個協助我們也希望書發部可以來協助那我們個人是認為說政府應該要有一個開源辦公室啦那書發部有沒有機會來考慮作為一個開源制度化的一個示範部門來成立一個開源辦公室還是已經有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5948.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5974.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我們請國際市他在這個開源方面有很多很多的過去的一些計畫跟努力請他做個市長做個說明是先跟委員報告一下感謝委員的支持那有關於開源由數位發展部來當零頭示範的部分跟委員報告的確我們目前在推動的數位評測品牆它整體就是走開源模式我們就希望透過這個方式來引導各部位在開源其實有非常多的效益的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5974.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5987.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
好 謝謝這個開源數位皮夾專案我也有安裝你們也一直有說有開放程式碼但是開放程式碼跟開源其他人可以使用你們這次應該兩個都有公開程式碼跟開源都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5991.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6014.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
那我想作為一個示範我覺得很重要那其實我也非常支持速發部在推動的這個公共城市的平台但是其他部會在做公共的城市的時候好像沒有串聯的很好因為像衛福部跟公研院委託的這個專案他們有用到開源的軟體可是卻在上面沒有辦法查得出來我希望速發部能不能有這樣的一個公共城市的平台跟其他的部會可以更積極的協調有相關運用到開源碼的專案就應該要在這裡可以查詢的到 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6020.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6045.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這個機制能不能再深化一下是 各位報告這個開園的整個政策我們在去年其實在全台各地都有召開相關的說明會那我們也積極鼓勵各個部會能夠參與整個開園的推動那這個部分我們數位發展部也正在擬定相關看有沒有一些相關的行政的指引能夠協助各個部會推動 以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6045.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6062.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
所以我想希望這個速發部我們是不是一起來爭取一下從行政院的陳傑也好還是速發部也好我們來成立一個開源的辦公室這個是人工智慧學校基金會的秘書長也是很多人的共同朋友他所貼出來的就是這很可能不是一個個案現在政府內部很可能有一大堆的專案 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6063.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6090.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
左手發給右手右手挪用開源的軟體卻沒有清楚的標示跟這個左右手互相領錢左右手互相查核其實現在有一些工具可以來查核到底有沒有使用開源的程式其實速發部在這個部分可能有一些知識也可以來協助所以我們的具體訴求希望成立開源辦公室另外一個具體訴求我們也期望這個數位皮匣的專案可以大順利大成功那也希望能夠作為一個範本讓未來我們政府的這個專案 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6093.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6121.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
public money public code公众的钱我们纳税人出来的钱就不应该是被特定的单位挪用开源城市码改了两三行之后变成自己的这个所谓的公众出资公共的城市我想也应该是符合速发部在推动的方向尤其最后一句话也是重点欧盟也在推动之外也说可以提高治安任性因为城市码可以公开审查与改进我想这应该是符合我们台湾中华民国发展的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6121.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6129.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
所以我想抒發部還有相關的同仁是不是近期我們可以一起來針對這個再做更多的討論好這沒問題我們來討論好謝謝謝謝好謝謝葛如今召委現在請煥雲委員執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6149.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6177.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
好 謝謝昭緯 有請部長好 黃部長委員好部長好 那我想關於就是這個媒體溢價法那首先就是要跟大家講的部分是就是其實從2023年就是上一屆我就持續倡議新聞有價那我想這個部分在你們的報告中你們也多次講 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6178.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6191.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
就是你們的支持喔那這邊是講到說2023年2月15日那當時我就邀請學者專家喔還有跟我們立法院的領主委員等我們就開了首次的公聽會那當天針對就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6194.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6218.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
到底這個分潤機制怎麼設計強制一價的設計我們這個民主國家的第四權有蠻多的討論那2023年5月11號當時我也召開記者會也正式提案那你有看到就是記者公會的朋友也有跟我一起開所以這其實是媒體界不管是所謂的老闆或者是記者朋友公會都很關心的事 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6219.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6242.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那2023年5月22號當時我也來特別質詢要求速發部能夠進行評估那2023年11月我提出預算案也要求引領政策時程可是到現在我們都知道一直沒有布版那我想我先簡單介紹我的版本的特色我的版本是溢價跟基金的雙軌制 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6243.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6258.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那溢價協商的部分怎麼去合理分潤因為目前最主要的問題其實就是廣告的分潤那基本上大型平台是自己做莊自己兼求援那演算法的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6260.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6281.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
並沒有公開透明所以對媒體來講的話其實從2017年之後學者們等研究就看到數位廣告早已高過媒體本身資訊不揭露然後談判不對等所以如果媒體沒有辦法生存的話其實傷害的就是我們的知的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6282.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6295.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那這部分所以溢價協商的部分如何合理分潤它基本上就是解決媒體產業的生存的問題它彰顯的是新聞的Price價格那為什麼我的版本會多一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6296.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6313.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
基金鼓勵那主要是記者朋友跟相關公會的意見我們如何在這個過程中凸顯新聞的價值所以我的版本中有設置基金管理委員會其中學者專家社會公正人士公會及公會團體的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6314.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6341.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
不得少於四分之三那我知道就是說後來我們立法院也有委員們辦公聽會的時候有提到就是說希望溢價制度先行那基金很好那可以鼓勵小眾多元媒體新聞工作者那擔心就是第一個會不會有重複課稅加重平台負擔的問題那第二個政府的手會不會深入媒體那當然這跟基金這個基金的組成審議有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6344.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6365.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那另外如何團結媒體而大家擔心會被分配不公的問題那我想你們目前在處理Google就是說提供了錢的時候其實就是說也要面對相關的議題那我個人是覺得其實什麼樣的制度對我來講要解決現在媒體集體的困境然後在這個過程中 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6365.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6383.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
如果讓新聞工作者他也能夠發出聲音參與相關的決策然後保障少數沒有協商實力的多元的媒體是我希望速發部在這個數位時代能夠一起來思考的 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6383.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6406.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
所以對我來講我並不會堅持一定要哪個制度我覺得政府出面當市場失敗的時候能夠出來解決問題的就是政府嘛那當然我們也知道當我這個版本提出的時間現在又有很多變化了日新月異包括您剛講的關稅談判的問題然後我們也看到目前我們看到的不管是澳洲模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6407.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6417.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
加拿大模式或者我剛剛沒有提到駐作臨接權因為在當時我辦的公聽會中很多學者就覺得這個比較不適用於台灣那駐作臨接權雖然2023年27個會 歐盟27個會員國都完成國內法化 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6423.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6439.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
可是也看到Meta已經宣告2025年要終止他們的新聞推薦那我們也看到澳洲的情況Meta在2024年3月也不再跟媒體續約那現在我看到的最新的狀況是去年年底 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6440.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6467.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
澳洲政府又有了新的策略那我不知道他們主要關稅主要不就是澳洲的例子嗎那加拿大我們也看到就是他們遇到的情況比較偏向於就是說用基金制就是譬如說Google就決定拿出1億的加幣免5年的協商那當然就是說Meta他一樣是遇到Meta的封鎖新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6468.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6496.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
所以我覺得這個困境是很高的那可是到底怎麼解決我覺得也不能夠沒有一個制度所以我想當然我的版本另外一個重點是針對現在的深層式的AI的無償使用我想部長很知道就是紐約時報率先控告OpenAI微軟在未經同意下用新聞報導訓練深層式AI那我的版本我知道我們的AI基本法也會處理這個問題那我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6498.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6518.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
哪一個會先說我的版本也納管生成是AI主要就是促使速發部解決這個問題喔那紐約時報的官司他的訴狀中最後寫到媒體的收入如果減少的話那深度採訪投入時間跟資源的記者也會跟著受害 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6519.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6537.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那這其實都是民主的危機所以我覺得這是我們一個集體的困境我的重點第三個就是跟很多委員不一樣的是保障記者勞動條件跟聲音那如果新聞媒體經溢價後的部分分類應該要用於改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6537.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6553.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
媒體記者的勞動條件那新聞媒體工作者也可以向如果這個基金能夠成立的話申請補助那我要跟大家講就是說加拿大的那個基金的分配其實他有去算媒體記者投入的時數跟他的總工時 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6554.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6573.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那這部分如果我們據說速發布有這個版本的話我想你們的研究人員跟能力應該要比我們各立委辦公室強那我最後要提的就是因為時間到了要講的其實一直不夠我覺得我的版本初衷為什麼這麼早2023年就提出我們看到新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6574.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6597.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
就是說新聞的如果淪喪或者是不願意投入到有品質的新聞的話其實就是民主的危機因為假訊息這麼的多所以如何強化民主韌性這是關鍵字就需要一起去面對大型數位平台這麼的龐大是一個全球的這樣子一個企業體那我們說數位主權對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6600.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6625.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這個數位主權在這方面台灣當然你會講說他很難去協商那但是我們有日本韓國其他的國家的例子是不是速發部能夠更進一步促成呢就剛剛已經講了很多了我知道你們有開了三輪八字會議跟新聞產業數位平台的對平等對話那最近在你們的報告中又講到川普上台對等關稅的衝擊那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6629.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6646.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
你們目前的計畫到底怎麼樣如何解決台灣媒體的集體困境是不是可以簡短回答我呢委員剛剛講的確實都是一些重點那我們當然就是說我們也很擔心新聞有價這件事情當然也是希望能夠越快定案越好 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6646.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6671.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那只是說在這個時間點確實因為國際情勢跟技術都還有就是那個目前的像剛剛講尤其是那個澳洲跟加拿大目前的發展都是我們作為下一段階參考當然就是說這個東西希望能夠在也就是說這個關稅的問題都希望很快能夠解決然後呢看看這個加拿大跟澳洲怎麼去處理這個問題然後跟歐盟我們當然是希望越快越好 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6672.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6693.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
那我是主張一定要有速發布的版本我們立法院才能審議啦因為這個涉及到的議題非常的複雜那主席也知道嘛又涉及到關稅又涉及到媒體然後這中間的不同的部分每一個委員的版本可能都沒有辦法了解最新的狀況還有包括AI 剛剛講AI的侵權還有AI的部分這個問題比 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6696.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6720.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
委員所講兩年前又複雜很多我也要提一下 速發部跟委員之間的溝通真的是太少了有一段時間好像停滯了直到這個召委要排這個部分是不是能夠更積極啊因為台灣媒體的困境已經很久了那你們現在就是Google分三年給的3億元的40個補助計畫是不是也能夠在你們同步 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6721.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6749.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
提出你們的版本的過程中也納入包含記者公會的聲音小型媒體 獨立媒體 獨立媒體的聲音還有就是說能不能夠評估那台灣媒體有沒有可能有一個共同的分潤平台如果就是說川普這個之後我們覺得有些制度比較高難度的話那我覺得速發部就是要出來解決這個問題因為為什麼我們要有速發部就是文化部 NCC 等等沒有辦法單獨處理這個問題好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6751.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6759.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
因為數位平台這個應該是你們就是說首先能夠面對的好嗎好 謝謝委員那多久之內可以給我一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6763.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6787.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
一個月之內一個月之內那到底你們這個版本的時程各方面那我是主張要有你們的版本我們才能夠進入逐條審議負責就是說立法委員個別的智慧都有限那我們擔心當然不希望傷害到台灣的媒體跟我們的民主好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝 歡迎委員喜智傑委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6789.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6813.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
執行完畢就休息10分鐘先行跟委員會做報告現在請林俊炫委員執行好我們謝謝主席本席邀請我們速發部黃部長黃部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6822.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6835.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
部長好部長今天大家都在關心今天的主題就是媒體的溢價法那我看部長就我們數碼部自己本身的報告裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6836.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6854.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
當然你有特別提到國際上 尤其是美國美國對於澳洲跟加拿大的媒體溢價法他認為這是一個貿易障礙他認為這樣的一種瞌睡如果你瞌睡的話 那美國甚至要不排除用關稅報復 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6856.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6861.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
如果以目前來的狀態剛好台灣在跟美國做關稅談判的時候如果台灣通過這樣的一個媒體溢價法對於我們跟美國的關稅談判會造成什麼樣的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6876.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6895.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
一樣就是因為現在在談判中這個是一個無可預測的因素所以我覺得那你認為台灣在現在這個時候適合來推媒體溢價法嗎我個人認為這個時候不是一個good timing不是一個好的時間不是一個好的時機嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6897.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6925.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那其實他在澳洲的經驗啊澳洲是2021年全世界第一個通過媒體溢價法那Google和臉書啊在2021年就停止支付了他們就不顧澳洲當地的法律然後他們就回去透過美國政府啊就跟澳洲政府來做談判施壓所以目前這個問題啊已經變成一個不是台灣現在面對的問題是全世界都面對的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6926.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6946.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那如果以目前我們跟美國在做關稅談判的時候部長認為這個時候通過這樣的一個法律恐怕會影響到我們跟美國的談判會造成一個負面影響嘛 是不是這樣對 是沒錯那其實這幾個平台巨頭在國際上他也有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6947.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6970.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
他會反擊這樣的一個媒體定價法比如說他在澳洲加拿大他有個模式啦他就封鎖當地的新聞內容對不對那你當地的媒體也拿不到錢第二個他透過美國政府把它做為數位的貿易壁壘來做談判嘛等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6972.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6995.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
好 那如果這種狀態下 其實如果我們要推這個在川普啦 跟這些平台巨頭的關係好不好應該是都有一些很好的合作關係有合作關係嗎 川普以前每天痛罵臉書啊川普當選以後 但現在是臉書在修補跟他的關係啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6997.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7021.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
你了解嗎所以川普他自己去創造一個自媒體的平台他認為臉書專門在修理他川普認為這些平台巨頭都是民主黨的 都是左派的其實這個在談判上不是不能講道理我也不知道有沒有在這個談判桌上但是美國國內同樣也會有這個問題美國國內的媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7025.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7044.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
他們的新聞製造製造者那他們上的臉書他們有沒有拿到錢也沒有嗎因為美國也沒有強制溢價法所以這個絕對是平台跟全世界的新聞媒體業界大家的一個共同的議題這其實也可以結合做國際上一個結合因為這幾個平台獨大嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7052.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7076.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那有在做這個媒體也是做經營媒體的其實美國國內也有啊 對不對媒體的生存困境美國也一樣啊全世界都一樣啊你看那個數位廣告現在已經超過一般傳統的廣告了嘛數位廣告過去幾年啊我這個資料啊成長了三倍多啦成長了346%啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7079.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7100.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
你看那個非數位廣告啊 衰退一半我講的是十年來啦十年來數位廣告成長百分之三百四十六非數位廣告反而衰退快一半所以這是一個大家共同問題但我認為今天要討論的其實不只是這媒體定價法因為你現在有卡到跟美國關稅談判的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7103.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7123.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
不過確實我們塑化部必須要有一定的角色來管理這些平台因為這些平台成為詐騙 假訊息的溫床詐騙廣告都在這些平台上面對不對所以你看澳洲政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7124.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7145.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
他對臉書就是說你臉書MetaMeta現在拒絕澳洲的那個定價法以後啊澳洲的提出的措施就是他要準備成立一個數位事務部腳步比台灣慢台灣現在就有數位發展部了 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7146.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7164.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那我們應該要有一定的 這種一定角色可以管理這些平台我現在講的不是只有新聞定價而已啦例如你在那邊一些假錯訊息啦 有一些授勤啦 詐騙啦 等等這些平台啊 只認錢啊 只收廣告費啊 他有負起他的社會責任嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7166.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7192.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
但你現在有法可以管它嗎你現在只能道德勸說這些平台如果是詐騙的話就是我們有打詐這個專法就是用這個來管制它 他們也都配合啦那現在詐騙廣告還是那麼多對 所以我們如果不管是民眾檢舉或是我們發現我們會要求它下架目前的法律規定是它在24小時之內要下架所以像今年那個新聞有沒有 今年4月 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7193.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7217.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
Meta的副總裁啊臉書的副總監啊總監啊他在美國舉手發誓作證啊他說Meta在中國他配合中國政府介入啊審查台港的發文審查幫中國政府審查甚至還針對這中國本身香港台灣用戶發的文字進行修改這臉書的前總監他在國會作證的 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7221.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7225.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
國會聽證是有法律責任的他不能說謊的那證實臉書是這樣的來配合一個獨裁政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7229.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7253.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那臉書在台灣會不會幹同樣的事情我們不知道啊但是你有角色你有法律的那種定位給你的角色你可以去介入嗎你可以去管理嗎我們對這問題也蠻關注所以我們除了關注美國現在共聽會的結果我們在台灣也會跟臉書在這方面再做進一步的了解跟溝通所以我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7254.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7279.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
你確實應該要提出塑化部的院版的法律啦那不是只專注在今天講的這個新聞定價法因為這個是一個世界性的問題啦但是你塑化部澳洲現在才緊急要成立塑化部台灣已經有了但我們過去塑化部的功能一直受到大家很大的批評對不對那主要就是對於這些網路上的管理尤其是這些平台巨頭的管理嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7280.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7304.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那你現在沒有法律坦白講你只能借助其他單位的法律其實就像剛剛你講的防詐的法律或者是你跟他們老是邀來喝咖啡愛吵人家不吵別人對不對你只能給他用勸說的方式所以你要定出我們自己國家對於網路上政府該有的一個你們要負起你們的責任還有你們的權責好不好好 謝謝部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7309.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7328.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
好 謝謝林進憲委員現在請蔡其昌副院長執行謝謝主席 請速發部黃部長好 速發部黃部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7336.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7362.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
部長早部長我想今天大家都很關心立法院很多委員也都提出了不同的版本面對特別是新聞產業的困境大家都很知道內容生產在於辛苦的媒體記者但在平台業者的使用上面卻沒有任何的這種回饋機制或者收費的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7364.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7388.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
在討論這個問題之前本席也有很多的疑惑今天也藉這個機會來請教一下速發部這個最近在網路上也很紅也很多關心體育的體育迷關心新聞假訊息的傳播學者大家都在關注這個題目這個題目很簡單有一家體育的媒體叫Top5 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7392.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7419.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
它每一個標題因為流量至上現在的網路世界民眾的訊息五成來自網路新聞訊息五成來自網路那來自網路又加上流量是關鍵甚至流量可以轉變成收入所以大家就開始把標題誇張化甚至誇張到變成假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7420.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7447.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
譬如說我隨便舉個例子這個媒體的平台它的標題都很聳動我隨便舉個例子這個確定了中職直升大聯盟第二人徐若曦進軍費城仁謝謝你魏全龍徐若曦還在魏全龍投球沒有費城仁這件事情那唯一有的是什麼費城仁的球探去看徐若曦投球所以就確定了他就要去費城仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7448.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7474.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
這不是 如果是偶爾一次 那就是說他可能是失誤啦我隨便再講 幾乎啦 每隔幾天可能就會有這個神尊家法官駕目擊表態 美國WBC夢幻外野陣容確定然後卡載 卡載就是有資格 在美國大聯盟 翔偉蛇隊有資格參加台灣隊的選手 叫卡洛 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7475.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7504.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
他說卡羅確定卡載正式歸隊台灣天啊我作為WBC國家隊的領隊我正在規劃七月有沒有可能我親自去美國去邀請卡載可不可以拜託他來參加我們的台灣隊我就不用去 他就已經確定了我是這個就公然這樣這只有兩則嘛 那個下一頁你看這些全部都是啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7506.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7532.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我還沒全部列完耶 還很多耶張玉成說為何中職人讓人看不起張玉成攤牌大檸檬伙食桃園你吃那個連叉都不吃張玉成根本沒講這個話啦他只有接受媒體訪問 媒體問他說請問你以前在大檸檬吃什麼他就講他在大檸檬吃什麼他沒有講說那個樂天桃園對你的那個叉都不吃啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7533.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7562.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
他完全沒有講這個這時候標題阿強前文部長我也不知道啦齁這個是你管的還是誰管的報告委員這個齁這個很多訊息我們我們我們大概沒有辦法去管因為很多訊息真假要專業判斷齁包括剛委員講這個這個我們不應該由數碼部來沒關係那這個到底是在中華民國的政府架構底下這個到底是誰管誰該為這個事情有一個態度出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7562.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7566.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
來來來 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7572.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7599.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
委員好那我這邊補充跟委員報告關於網路新聞的部分我們大概有在處理網路新聞自律這一塊的因為它目前是沒有作用法說是用自律的方式處理我們在去年底有發布這個網路新聞自律原則然後今年會做一個更往前去邁進一步就是要類似做他們一個聯盟或者一個組織的方式來處理那個聯盟會組織我們今年會有一個案子大概320萬會去做一個類似 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7601.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7617.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
類似以前那個公共監督的角色比方說我會去做一些觀察評價之類的那我們也這是今年度要做的事情那過往 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7618.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7646.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
到現在我們除了找這個網路新聞國內的網路新聞業者包括我們廣播業者的延伸自己做的還有一些自媒體我們都有邀請他們來做座談會也請相關政府部門來表達他們的對他們的期待跟需求也希望他們維持做好一個自律特別是要做事實查證剛剛委員所舉的很多東西其實是沒有事實查證的但是因為回到剛剛一開始講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7647.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7672.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
目前沒有作用法所以只能用自律的方式來處理但是我們會用公開的方式用他律他自律的部分加上他律就是一個第三方式來一起做協作以上好所以其實簡單講我聽你們兩個講完就是沒有任何人在管簡單講就是這樣子我聽完你們兩個解釋完就是NCC跟蘇發部對於這種這麼明顯誇張的 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7676.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7703.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
我其實知道啦 我其實完全知道你們要講什麼啦因為所謂的假新聞在台灣這種高度對立的社會特別是政治高度對立的社會大家都負責 互相指稱對方那個是假新聞所以讓我們很難去產生一個上帝這個上帝來判斷誰是真誰是假但是我們應該設計一個機制透過一個公開透明的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7705.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7725.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
來做一點基本處理那像這種我只要求啦像這種他也不是什麼藍綠綠他就明顯當事人都在嘛就當事人都在我其實我也很簡單很多人來問我這個聯盟的會長說要怎麼處理因為我們聯盟都是受害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7728.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7753.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
對我們該怎麼處理就是我現在面對政府官員你們在這裡我問你們說當這些事實這些都是明確都是假的因為都有辦法把當事人找來我們在藍綠工坊的假新聞裡面因為雙方都指責對方這是不對的那但是這種明顯受害然後呢也可以查證那你覺得我們應該怎麼處理比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7754.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7774.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
跟委員補充報告不管是有作用法的領域跟現在沒有作用法的這個傳播的網路新聞媒體這一塊其實都有第三方的協力具體而言就是第三方查核的比方說我現在的第三方我要怎麼處理讓不在在台灣的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7776.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7792.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
體育的市場上不再出現這種明顯誇張為了賺流量造假的這個新聞怎麼處理跟委員報告那個委員講的這個方向也是我們速發不一直想要努力的方向但是自從川普在次當選總統以後事情又有一些變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7793.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7809.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
第一個就是美國本來那個META他是委託第三方的事實查核機構來做事實查核但是川普總統上任以後就是施壓那個META現在META已經停止跟美國的事實查核機構共同合作另外一件事情是在今年2025年2月26號 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7812.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7833.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
美國FCC發了一封公開信給美國所有的媒體巨頭裡面就講說如果這些包含那個Meta還有X等等他如果在其他的國家受到其他的國家的政府的施壓要求他們做一些言論審查而且是違反美國憲法第一條修正案的精神那美國憲法第一條的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7834.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7860.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
他們就必須跟美國報告他們說這是這些公司他們的責任也是他們的義務他們的權利那美國憲法第一條修正案那是美國人的看法他們認為說政府不應該涉入這種事實的基本上就是不應該涉入那個媒體的管制所以這件事情對我們來講的確是一個我們很想做但是現在又有點擔心的事情以上報告 謝謝對對對 但是喔這樣的解釋其實我簡單講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7863.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7892.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
言論自由該不該有它的約束就美國講這個意思就是說所以美國也沒有言論自由是無限的我鼓勵殺人如果這是體育啊OK沒有問題那個美國憲法第一條修正案依照他們那個大法官過去的判例就是鼓勵殺人的話這是不像所以它有限制嘛有限制那你覺得中華民國應不應該也有限制就是我現在告訴你大家都知道這是假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7894.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7912.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
然後中華民國的政府告訴我他們沒辦法處理我只是問這個啦我常常在這裡講詐騙我講了很多很多的案例告訴你我也知道你們在那裡但是你們不可以給我雙手一攤說這就是自律啦大家自律 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7913.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7929.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
不好意思再跟委員報告補充一下在以前羅政委時代他有主持一些會議其實對假訊息的定義是要有惡、假、害這三個要素構成然後呢有構成這個之後然後是做部會來聯訪成假、易假、破假 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7931.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7951.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
視角齁 這個四個面向來做 目前大致上是在平衡言論自由跟二甲害之間來做處理我瞭解啦 我懂你的意思 但我只是我身為一個國會議員在這裡問你說當我遇到這樣子我要怎麼處理 你們都一直跟我講原則你就跟我說我明天要去警察叫保安嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7952.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7966.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我到底要怎麼處理嘛我一國會議員理事堂問你這個你都還沒辦法回答我你說一般的人遇到這問題他要怎麼處理我現在很簡單我不想跟你討論那些大道理啦我都知道我就告訴你言論自由我們不想選一個上帝啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7969.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7980.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
但是問題是不能因為沒有上帝所以呢所以變成地獄嘛沒有這種事情嘛我現在就是在這裡問你說我回到這裡我也不知道要怎麼處理啊誰可以跟我說這款的假訊息不能這樣三五天就出現一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7986.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8013.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
對這個您如果把這個資料給我們我們可以跟META溝通我們可以有管道要求他們下架這沒問題對嘛你就是我要的就是你總是要讓台灣社會知道說就確定假訊息我們可以要求他們下架我們不想選上帝但我們不想台灣變地獄嘛這個我們可以處理就是把委員把資料給我們總是你要有一個方法不讓台灣變地獄嘛我們現在跟META有很好的溝通管道所以這個東西我們是有辦法去要求你們下架你們沒有版本我很了解啦這些法案你們沒有版本我很了解雖然我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8014.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8037.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
媒體的工作者很辛苦啦台灣的媒體產業再這樣搞下去媒體的環境是越來越艱困沒有人以後沒有人要生產內容嘛生產內容的人他都沒有任何得到任何回報我知道你們為什麼不敢沒有行政院的版本嘛因為很難啦澳洲的經驗加拿大的經驗都讓我們覺得沒那麼簡單啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8040.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8061.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
我都很清楚,但不能這麼簡單,所以我們就放任整個台灣媒體也不要插名,讓他們都自生自滅,這裡明顯,明顯我就跟你說這就是假的,不是偶爾出現就算了嘛,偶爾不小心犯錯,那怎麼可以把人家這樣子,這就接二連三一直出來,一直出來,一直出來, |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8062.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8091.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
在社會在體育圈也形成了一個很大的話題阿咱政府束手無策這話就沒辦法接受嘛部長你懂我的意思啦趕快處理啦我會後就把這資料給你嘛你們看該怎麼處理就趕快處理好不好好謝謝好謝謝蔡西昌副院長等一下喜智捷執行完畢我們要休息十分鐘現在請喜智捷召委執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8100.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8124.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
先謝謝林國成、趙偉感謝我們請部長黃部長部長好部長其實之前唐鳳當部長的時候那個時候有跟Google跟Meta他們對話過 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8127.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8131.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
所以當時其實我也曾經要求過很多次就是說有沒有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8133.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8157.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
讓數化部創造這個平台那這個平台能夠發揮一些溝通的功能那的確就是Google也從2023年有三年出資三億建立台灣新聞數位共同基金那這個的確是數化部的作為有效果出來那我們眼看2023年到2025年 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8161.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8186.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
那明年2026有可能有類似的機制嗎現在有在談這個請那個書長這個我們也跟委員一樣關心說我們跟Google詢問過Google說還有一年多的時間他希望能夠知道他的成效之後再跟總部這邊才有辦法去爭取更多的資源所以他還是要看這兩這三年的執行結果OK那就接續剛才蔡警長委員提到的這個問題事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8189.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8211.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我們不能束手無策那剛剛部長也有提到就是說你們可以跟Meta去反應這些問題那我們來看就是Google Meta如果有類似這樣子一個共同基金那也許用這個基金就可以創造另外一個就是解決這些問題的人出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8215.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8235.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
所以我是這樣子建議啦 因為現在的網路新聞真的是真真假假假假真真啦很多有的是虛假的訊息 但是呢你會造成人民很大的困擾那現在是誰流量大 說話大聲沒的沒吃的 有的就刻意流量也亂講亂講 又不用負責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8239.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8265.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
所以就是說我們希望說就是以NCC跟我們的那個數學部的角度如何去杜絕類似這樣子一個虛假的言論那這個虛假言論如果一旦出現之後那數學部跟NCC有什麼作為就類似剛才部長提到可以跟META反映之外你覺得還有什麼方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8267.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8291.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
再就想說判斷真假當然這個是就是要由專業去判斷那判斷真假之後那個管道當然就是說我們跟Meta有一些平台管道可以直接跟他們溝通那當然剛剛主委有講到說那個可能有一些作用法一些法可以讓這個東西可以更有一個法制化這邊是不是請主委再說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8292.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8312.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
跟委員補充 如果是我們NCC所管的廣電業者我們要求他事實查證 而且會有相當的法律效果就是說如果他違反的話 這邊會有衛廣法或廣電法律相處理那至於說自媒體的網路那一塊 除了說我們現在用這個要求他們自立 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8313.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8334.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
時時刻刻提醒他們之外其實iWeb本身雖然它是以處理兒少為主但是如果一般的網路上的一些申訴通報他們他們一樣是跟這個Google或者Meta一樣有聯繫管道一樣可以協力來處理所以現在就是說這個我們NCC跟速發部都有一個單位可以受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8336.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8351.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
都沒問題嗎就是如果要下就確定這個新聞是假新聞或者是有危害的新聞我們是有管道去跟NCC是這次速發部跟NCC有個單位我們直接跟誰反應 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8352.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8375.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我們這邊是可以這個協力啦就是說透過iWIN這個窗口它雖然主要受惹哨但是非惹哨的議題的部分網路上的東西透過他們來受惹哨一樣可以透過他們去跟相關的那大型平台業者來反映他們本身會有一個自律規範跟社群守則他們會依據他們的處理我舉個簡單的例子啦就像詐騙就打165吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8376.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8397.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那我如果遇到這個東西是速發部負責還是NCC負責那我要找誰因為部長講可以反應但是速發部單位這麼大我們要找誰是不是有個固定的窗口提供給民眾那民眾要來使用遇到這些假訊息可以及時反應是不是就會比較清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8398.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8427.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
我們有一些那個我們請素材署說明一下跟委員報告我們有加入這個iWIN的組織所以我們這邊也可以來承接這個安置然後我們請iWIN來幫忙所以是跟蘇華部的蘇華部我們這邊有跟iWIN有窗口我知道你們有說 民眾跟你們窗口要找誰我們這邊有那個進箱這二片的第一道窗口就是165這個一般民眾可以打 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8428.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8431.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
所以假訊息也算詐騙假訊息也打165嗎165會傳給你們嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8437.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8460.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我們這邊是沒有直接受理但是我們有些同仁會受理但是比較多的還是過往都是I-WIN來受理比較為主對啦所以你們研究一下看民眾如果找誰比較方便就直接你們把這個窗口訂出來吧這樣子民眾要處理是不是就比較簡單沒有假訊息就剛剛講說I-WIN是一個窗口不過我們再看看OK那媒體意見我想剛剛其昌 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8462.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8491.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
委員也提到歐洲跟加拿大這個其實是有困難沒有錯啦所以我們要定這個法 到底法則要到什麼程度 或者是要共融到什麼程度那以及就是說現在歐盟使用的這個著作權 臨階模式或者是說我們的強制溢價模式 那現在我們書畫部有沒有什麼想法 這大概會用哪個模式就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8492.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8519.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
剛剛就前面都有報告過就是說我們現在是沒有特定立場那持續還在研究跟關注現在國際發展所以我們也是希望儘快尤其在關稅這問題解決之後儘快瞭解這個世界各國採取的方式哪個方式有效我們就當然一定要儘快的處理所以現在只是說那個以目前來講我們沒有特定立場因為兩個模式都有一些缺失 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8520.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8545.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
那當然這個剛剛講共農基金是目前在台灣已經在進行的模式那我們會在這個裡面再繼續鼓勵讓共農基金的模式能夠繼續發展跟成長不過立法這個東西我們希望盡快但是在目前這個時間點需要再觀察OK 時間到了我們簡單結論啦就是說你要用強制溢價的立法這個優缺點在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8546.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8561.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
那我們的駐州權連接模式這個歐盟採用的比較廣泛那速發部是不是有立場或想法那也希望說整理一下讓我知道一下那最後就是這個共榮基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8562.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8586.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
共同基金我是覺得目前我們是3億嘛 對不對3年3億 1年1億有機會再更多當然我們盡量去爭取那爭取到了以後這些基金事實上就是不管是著作權的他應該要有的收費也好或者是說民眾反映的這個假訊息處理我覺得這部分蘇發部跟NCC可以做一個規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8587.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8612.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
這個有錢可以用我們就把它用發揮它的效率吧就杜絕減少這樣子一個假訊息的擴散跟蔓延那你們也可以盡快的跟Meta或者是相關的部門請他們盡快的去下架等等的這些速度要如何加快讓人民很快就能夠跟你們反應那很快就能夠處理我想這個是最實際有效的希望說這個部分你們也規劃一下好不好 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8614.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8617.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
好 謝謝喜智傑召委現在休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8643.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8652.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8670.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8691.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8712.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8713.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8761.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8762.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
嗯嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8780.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8794.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
好 站好 站好 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8803.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8827.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
好好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8832.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8850.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8859.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8868.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8891.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8892.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
你管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9222.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9240.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
好 各位請就座好 我們繼續開會現在請郭益勤委員執行好 謝謝主席 有請部長好 黃部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9249.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9267.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我想今天本集要談的就是新聞媒體跟這個數位平台溢價的制度的一個問題啦但是其實我們更深入的去探討這樣子的一個問題這已經不只是新聞產業的一個生死問題更有可能會是關係到台灣民主是不是能夠正常的運作這樣子的一個根本 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9268.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9281.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
那先講一個就是大家都知道但是也很無奈的一個狀況就是每天其實我們在滑手機在看新聞的同時其實絕大波數的一個廣告的一個收入大概有七成到八成 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9281.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9307.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
它是被Google或者是Meta這種跨台跨國的一個平台給拿走了那麼光是2019年這些所謂的國際的跨國的平台其實都已經具有大概458億的一個市場的一個規模了那其實這個數字其實還蠻驚人的但是真正產出內容的部分或者是冒著風險正在追蹤所謂的真相的本土的新聞平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9308.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9334.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
其實他們也面臨到這些所謂的他們辛苦耕耘的結果其實是被這些平台給剝奪了那當然這個新聞媒體偏鄉的新聞可能會消失那地方的報導也可能會不見那其實都是我們最關心的台灣第四權正在一點一滴的被侵蝕殆盡那最主要的就是因為廣告的收益其實都流入到其他跨國的平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9334.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9343.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
所以為什麼說這個溢價就是在我們的平台溢價的制度要趕快去建立其實我們真的也是當務之急那根據這個統計從2011年到2021年的一個時間台灣新聞媒體的廣告收入已經下滑了45%以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9352.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9374.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那另外累積流失的這個所謂的這個廣告的金額大概也將近六百億之普那我想這個Google或者是Meta他控制了台灣超過七成以上的一個數位廣告的市場也就是說新聞的資產其實都是由台灣本土的媒體自行來負擔但是這個流量跟收益卻 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9376.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9396.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
絕大多數給了他們那其實對於本土的新聞業者來講其實是非常辛苦的一個部分那我們台灣大概將近40%其實包含你我啦我們平常只是在看新聞的時候其實我們可能會透過臉書或者是我們會透過LINE等一些所謂的這樣子的一個數位平台在接收這些新聞的一個資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9398.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9418.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
但是呢我們難免都會變成是一個我們台灣自己本土的新聞的產出變成淪為所謂的這個犧牲者啦所以從2021年我知道這個行政院其實也承諾推動要新聞議價的一個制度那也成立了新聞媒體跟數位平台議價制度的一個推動小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9419.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9439.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
要來積極做這件事情但是三年過去了到底我們這個目前為止我們看不到任何具體的一個立法的草案那目前也等不到對外公佈的一個時程跟整個所有的制度的一個架構那據本席了解這個新聞議價的推動小組從去年的3月13號之後就沒有再開過會議了是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9442.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9457.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
好那請問這個目前該小組到底實際的運作的狀況是如何然後另外呢還有一個新聞產業跟大型數位平台對話的一個機制最後一次的會議也是落在2023年的9月6號之後也就沒有下文了 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9458.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9485.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那這個部分其實我們真的也非常非常的懷疑就是說我們一直從2021年講到現在其實將近不是三年過去其實是快四年的一個時間到底我們現在溢價的模式是什麼我們的方向又是如何我們要怎麼樣來保障地方的媒體跟非營利的新聞深入報導的生存的發展這其實非常非常的重要那剛剛其實有很多的委員他們也特別提到國外的一個例子那麼不管是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9487.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9511.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
歐盟他們是用所謂的臨階權立法或者是加拿大他們是用所謂的新聞的基金那另外呢像澳洲他們是強制溢價加上這個仲裁喔那我想要問的就是目前到底我們的會議中斷的原因是什麼那接著下來我們溢價的模式又是什麼有沒有一個比較接近的一個進程是讓我們可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9511.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9537.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
能夠看得見到底我們的方向在哪裡我們的共識在哪裡我們的跨部會的一個整合這個共識有沒有一個具體的一個方向那個謝謝委員的那個這些的觀察跟這項的建議的確啦這個新聞有價是大家的共識那只是說這個問題不是只有台灣的問題就是說這個目前像這個網路平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9539.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9556.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
就是等於說他們吸引走大量這樣的一個流量影響到當地的一些媒體的一些大家的一些所謂的商業的一些營收那這個東西當然是一定要處理那我上任之後其實有在跟很多學者很多工協會有討論過這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9558.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9577.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那當然就是說這個議題在過去我上任之後因為過去這一兩年的確也發生很大變化因為不管是我們去觀察國際因為剛剛講這是國際性的問題但幾個重要的指標一個就是澳洲然後一個就是加拿大那當然是包括歐盟那原先我上任的時候那時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9579.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9599.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
因為開過這幾次會那時候認為說可能又因為AI的發展所以那時候可能認為是那個就是所謂的著作臨接權是一個可能可以推動方向不過從歐盟這個推動一年多以來目前對媒體的營收也感覺上沒有太大的注意所以這個到底是哪個 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9599.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9621.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我們先不要管歐盟他們的這個所謂的什麼媒體營收有沒有多大的一個注意那是國外的一個方向但是問題是歐盟這樣子的一個做法其實他也同樣的保護了他們自己本身的一些新聞的內容是不要被免費轉載這些事情其實很重要我們是以先怎麼樣保護我們本土的新聞業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9622.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9637.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
新聞的媒體的業者來做這樣子的一個出發點然後再來討論比方說你講澳洲其實Google跟Meta他們也是乖乖的付錢大概將近有三百付錢給澳洲的三百家的媒體啊他在2024年就停止了這個付費所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9638.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9657.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
所以就是說這個model為什麼我們會忽然間就稍微有點這個還在觀察就是說澳洲的模式在目前我們各個那要觀察到什麼時候經濟學人的報導包括我們現在看到澳洲的目前的因為就是其實講起來就兩家公司一個叫google一個叫meta那meta是完全不配合不管是在哪個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9658.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9686.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
那Google是有一開始在澳洲有配合不過目前也暫停了所以這個加大也暫停所以我就說因為這個這個制度怎麼讓這兩個公司把就能夠適當的補助或是協助當地的媒體在其他國家好像都還需要再觀察然後再加上最近複雜化是因為這關稅的問題所以我覺得在這個時間點我們沒辦法確定哪一個是對台灣最有利 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9686.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9707.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
但是因為一年拖過一年一天拖過一天其實如果一直一直處於這種未定一直覺得別人怎麼樣然後我們可能就會怎麼樣其實這個部分也也真的會延遲我們的這個所謂的溢價的一個進程啊所以我們現在就是在過去這一兩年當然就兩三年就是google那個model就是共榮基金這個model |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9707.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9733.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
看有沒有辦法讓Google跟甚至於Meta能夠來用這個Model對台灣媒體有些幫助是我們覺得可以再進行去溝通協調在立法之前那立法之後當然就是說我們確定哪個法是有效是我們當然會快速的去立法那但是說在這個立法之前也許Google的共同基金Model是一個Model另外一個可能的做法是 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9734.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9762.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
的確啦這個整個因為技術的進步我們各個產業都需要做數位轉型所以怎麼樣幫媒體做數位轉型也是我們數化部現在在考慮的因為今天我們的時間有限但是我們在面臨所謂的這個跨國平台的一個壓力我們怎麼樣先保護我們自己本身的這個新聞的業者跟我們自己的這個媒體的平台這個才是真正的出發點另外其他的國家的model我們當然是拿來做這些參考但不動其實我們就不知道怎麼樣去應對 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9764.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9776.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
我們有再積極再做好那我們希望盡快如果有新的精神麻煩再提供給我們辦公室好謝謝部長好謝謝郭益勤委員現在請徐富奎委員執行謝主席有請我們黃部長好黃部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9795.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9814.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
部長我過去也曾經在媒體服務過好幾年所以現場的媒體朋友的辛苦我都感同身受所以我想藉由今天這個勞動節我們特別標題寫了新聞不能做白宮媒體溢價制度不能等那所以部長我想剛剛談了很多那我們這個新聞的 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9819.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9826.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
議價制度不適單一的法規問題要牽扯到這個國際平台的反應跟國際政經的情勢那部長怎麼樣看待這樣的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9829.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9858.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
包括就是說剛剛在報告都談過就是說基本上我想新聞有價是大家共生而且是全世界的問題那所以我覺得就是說我們希望找到一個model對台灣有利而且是對台灣所有的媒體不管大或小那所以在這裡面情況我們希望能夠進速能夠產生在不管是在政府單位之間或者是跟民間民眾之間能產生一個共識然後用這個共識去推動我們的立法這個是我們就要積極進行那現在也在 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9859.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9887.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
進行中就是當然部長我想就是剛剛有提到我們目前國際上有三種做法第一個就是強制溢價的一個模式比如像澳洲的一個立法那第二個基金模式比如說科的一個公共基金來做一個回饋那第三個就是一個駐作臨階權的一個模式那我特別要強調因為基金模式涉及到一個科稅的問題那在國際上也處於一個高度敏感的一個狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9888.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9917.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那過去美國也因為對於歐洲國家進行一個數位稅的一個反對甚至祭出一個貿易制裁的一個報復後來也是在OECD平台上也達到一個折衝的一個方案那部長是不是認為在這樣的一個新聞議題的方式上面到底哪一個模式我們必須要從一個法律依據還有產業的運作甚至國際貿易的風險的面向應該怎麼來去評估才是對我們比較有利的一個方向謝謝委員對沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9918.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9936.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
這個就是我們目前正在評估的因為尤其在這個時間點因為加入一些政治的考量跟國際關稅的考量問題是變成是複雜化所以在這三個模式到底哪個模式對台灣最有效這個都還要再觀察 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9937.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9955.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
對阿部長但是觀察總是也要有一個階段性的處理啦不能一直只是在關稅問題這個settle down以後我們當然就是再觀察再看看再根據這個目前澳洲的這個澳洲是一個很好的一個平台就是說因為他用強制議價法那這個強制法在 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9958.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9983.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
在這個東西在目前看起來是不成功但是我們當然也許這個這個等到關稅這問題解決之後這個問題會不會解決我們也有待觀察不過目前的確這三個三個模式都有一些都有一些缺點這個就是對台灣哪一個最有效其實也是沒有共識所以因為沒有共識所以我們在目前沒有辦法提出個版本是能夠滿足 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9984.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10002.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
就是滿足大家就臺灣特別的需要所以這個我們希望能夠盡速有個定案但是還需要再跟大眾溝通好 部長謝謝辛苦了我們繼續努力那部長請回我們接著請熊熊傳播委員會我們的陳代理主委謝謝好 那個陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10009.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10038.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
主委我想新聞產業是我們民主社會不可或缺的一環那尤其這個數位平台舉起之後對我們這個新聞內容的再利用其實對我們傳統產業傳統的媒體也造成一個長期跟結構性的一個衝擊那過去我們通訊傳播委員會有在111年有辦一個我國廣電新聞媒體受數位平台影響的一個產業調查請教主委這個研究是不是有公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10043.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10057.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我的研究案應該是有相對的公開然後之前我們在我們今天報告其實也有提到大概重點大概是幾個就是說其實現在有些媒體不管是廣電的本身延伸的網路媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10060.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10083.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
自媒體他們有些事已經有跟兩大平台已經在合作那他們比較在抱怨的是第一個他跟兩大平台的合作的分認這個機制是不透明的不對等的那他可能今天拿了100萬可能這個月拿100萬下個月可能不知道什麼原因突然就變成50萬他們就抱怨說這個分認機制是不透明的 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10084.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10103.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那這是在沒有這個溢價法之前的現狀是這樣子的那他們希望說未來能夠除了以流量當作分潤的依據之外能不能提出在溢價法裡頭能不能導入一個非以流量為依歸的方式來做分潤他們的訴求是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10103.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10117.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
主委那如果既然這樣的一個你們針對這樣一個新聞溢價的部分有一個制度性的一個建議那是不是應該要掌握更完整的一個產業太陽是不是進行全面性的一個調查有沒有這個必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10118.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10134.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
是的 那所以在那個原來稅務部三輪八場裡頭我們就之前行政院有分工協調我們負責產業調查之後的報告我們有在那種場合持續有跟政府也好跟兩大平台有持續在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10135.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10157.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以我想我們會會也支持一個新聞有價應該合理分潤的一個原則我想這個原則下面應該也要怎麼樣讓我們的針對媒體業者反映的這些諸多的一個問題包含透明度包含這個分潤制度包含這個平台經營的一個風險壓力的部分應該做更謹慎的一個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10160.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10187.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
那我想這個新聞我們的新聞媒體的先進們大家都很辛苦都在第一線報導我們的所有的這個新聞那他們也是生產公共知識的一個勞工但是過去長期處於一個低薪不穩定過勞的一個狀態那我想我們也應該要捍衛他們的一個權益那為了我想包含我們的數位部包含我們的同船會還有相關包含勞動部我想這幾個單位我們應該共同努力盡快把這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10188.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10202.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
新聞的一個不能做白宮的一個方式這個制度應該趕快廢掉讓我們的媒體一家制度趕快上路以大家共同來努力謝謝謝謝徐護回委員現在請李崑哲委員執行謝謝召委請一下黃部長請黃部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10221.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10236.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
部長我們還是來關切有關於獨立遊戲的發展獨立遊戲是國家軟實力的一個發展的重要的展現那請教一下蘇花部對於獨立遊戲協助發展的重點在哪裡來請說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10237.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10251.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
我們有當然就是說一個是對他們治安的協助另外就是說我們有些獎金那就是補助金那補助過去在這個軟體開發我們有給就是一些這個計畫計畫補助那 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10254.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10262.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
大概是用這方面去協助這個產業的發展當然在過去我們有上位的計畫是編了42億那三減了20億凍結了10億那單單這個獨立遊戲開發獎勵還有產品化加值計畫這個部分原先也要編列1425萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10274.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10297.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
那大概每年會補助八至十家的獨立遊戲業者他的開發遊戲的一個基本的動能那我們現在來討論一下我們對於獨立遊戲的發展我認為大概是有三個面向我們要給予協助第一個當然是在資金的開發第二是技術的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10298.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10313.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
第三是相關的行銷的推廣我們來討論一下場域及技術的資源這個部分那相關的我們蘇發部對於技術的資源做的重點是如何來簡單說明一下這個我請蘇產署蘇長趕快 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10316.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10320.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
我們會有跟國內外大廠合作來提供軟硬體讓我們這個獨立遊戲用另外我們也建立了一個動捕的一個實驗室也是給這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10334.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10353.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我們要提供創新的基地然後讓這個提供他們實體的這些場域以及社群交流的這些場域而且我認為應該是要跟國內外大廠合作讓原廠來提供這些原廠的軟硬體的技術的一些資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10355.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10382.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
另外在行銷的部分來行銷部門來那跟委員快速報告一下我們主要是國內外國內的話我們會在台北電軟展我們有獨立遊戲的專區在台北台中跟高雄的這個資訊月我們會展示獨立遊戲的成果國際拓展的部分呢國際拓展我們去年就帶了我們兩個獨立遊戲業者去參加日本的Bit Summit那有兩個我們獨立遊戲廠商真的是表現得很好他們都獲得了大獎 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10383.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10406.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
所以我們會持續這樣的一個路徑我們對於相關資金的這樣的一個到位還是非常重要的那我們看到三位計畫被刪減了20億 凍結了10億那刪減的部分是無法回頭啦但是凍結的部分應該要積極的解凍而且積極解凍之後我們要趕快的研議恢復獨立遊戲的這些獎補助來 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10410.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10438.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
調整我們相關補助的規模因為錢還是被刪減的非常多過去一年補助8至10個可能現在能補助幾個2至3個 來 署長因為結段還沒有開始然後這個還要做一個申請 審查的我們會進來努力看能不能救回幾個補助案這樣子那我們應該具體的恢復這些講補助的狀況有多少錢來做多少事 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10438.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10459.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
那至少要補助二至三個遊戲另外我們也要協助找裁員找裁員來投入資金給獨立遊戲的創作者要協助找裁員另外我們明年度要及早公布這些獨立遊戲的講座計畫的辦理程序這個都要提早 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10460.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10474.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
另外時間我要請教相關網路詐騙的問題網路詐騙通報查詢網的成效我們必須來做檢視那到4月中旬通報了大概14萬筆的疑似詐騙廣告那大概有74000筆確認下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10477.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10499.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
將近大概有50%左右是有效的處理每月看起來大概有一萬則疑似詐騙廣告被下架那其實看起來還是有大量通報沒有妥善的處理其實原因跟時程我們的社會大眾還不是很清楚我先請教一下沒有被下架的通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10500.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10516.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
大概是處於什麼狀態就是說他是通報是處於初步的確認還是我們這些核實的單位還在處理來簡單說明一下這個我再請那個署長說明跟委員報告主要可能有三種原因第一個他不是詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10518.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10545.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
這是第一個第二個當然是部會可能要一點時間這個在路途當中第三個可能是它是高風險的所以它又變成是後來又變成高風險這樣所以它有可能不是詐騙也有可能是在確認當中也有可能它是高風險的一個詐騙的廣告對但是不確定一定是詐騙的廣告那通常每一份通報你們處理的時間大概要多久來說明一下我們24小時內一定要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10546.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10557.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
24小時之內一定要處理那沒有處理的原因就是剛才三樣的主要原因嘛可能他不是或者是他可能是而且是高風險的或是還要繼續的確認那 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10560.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10584.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
我們針對網路詐騙的這些查詢網目前通報的數量是非常龐大對不對那處理的效率看起來大概只能處理到一半的問題這是我們內部機制的問題還是這些量能的問題來說明一下官委都有處理只是說剛剛講因為有些是確定不是詐騙所以我們就所以剛剛講說但是你處理的時效還是太慢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10584.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10608.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
你大概只能處理一半左右的我們現在是說相關的造成延誤的還沒有處理的 必須要更明快要加強我們內部的機制來做確認以及處理 來 署長說明一下是 跟委員報告 剛剛委員講14萬下架7萬 那7萬是下架的但因為那7萬很多字 是不是照片所以我們就沒有公佈在那個數字上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10608.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10636.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
這個都確認了那我問你這個廣告實名制實施到現在像Google、LINE、TikTok這些網路平台政府會要求他們24小時下架這些詐騙廣告對不對然後配合的情形呢目前都有配合配合的效率怎麼樣啊有像你講的24小時嗎 沒有啊來 署長說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10640.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10656.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
他們是會遵守法律的規定24小時但是有些可能他不認為是詐騙的所以這個是他需要更多的時間這個部分但是大部分的詐騙的訊息他會在24小時內下架這個都還是有相當大的問題的但是時間的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10658.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10682.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
部長必須要督促相關的單位我們針對這些詐騙的廣告處理的時效以及處理的成果必須要快速而明確將近有一半都還在處於確認的狀態那這個對受到詐騙的民眾情何以堪必須更加強他的效率我們會加強努力 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10683.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10696.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
好 謝謝李崑澤委員現在請何欣淳委員執行謝謝昭偉 我們請黃部長好 請蘇貝普黃部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10704.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10722.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
部長在進入我今天要質詢之前剛剛李昆哲委員在講的有關這個平台詐騙的一個下架的問題那我記得我上個禮拜呢也就所謂的LINE的這個個人帳號被盜被盜用了之後呢他就被詐騙他身邊的親友就被 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10727.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10754.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
這個變造的這個LINE假冒的LINE的帳號詐騙那我記得那一次的質詢你說要找平台要拜訪LINE總公司也好或是台灣的公司也好要喝咖啡聊一聊那聊了嗎那個市長昨天聊不可以請市長說市長請說來那有跟LINE坐下來談過之後LINE的即時回應是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10755.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10770.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
跟委員報告事實上我們昨天有跟LINE台灣的公司就談過他們現在已經上了一個新的版本那這個新的版本如果你的帳號被盜走以後你馬上再登入你又可以馬上把你的帳號再搶回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10772.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10796.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
但是唯一的條件是說必須趕快更新到最新的Line版本那舊的版本沒有這個功能所以我們現在努力在跟社會大眾宣導那兩件事第一個如果是用更新後的Line的版本新的版本我及時的去以個人去變更的話那第一個有及時嗎我的意思是說是馬上就變更就馬上成功嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10797.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10801.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
對就是說我如果更新到新的版本我們現在講的都是有沒有及時的問題為什麼我上個禮拜在質詢的時候就是說以LINE現況我們接收到很多的陳情我的LINE個人帳號是被盜用我要去呈報 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10813.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10821.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
跟LINE提出呈報 呈報之後他雖然受理只是一個客服 客服完之後呢就沒死沒死 可能要等個一個禮拜十天可能我的這個LINE的這個被冒名的這個帳號還在外面四處去詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10829.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10850.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
是沒錯那現在我要求的是你跟LINE公司喝完咖啡聊過了之後第一個你獲得的承諾是他們要變更版本那我們台灣國人如果有人LINE的帳號被冒用的話他現在可以用更新版即時的來更新他的帳號 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10850.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10863.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
是沒錯第二個即使跟現在說原來被冒用的那個LINE的帳號LINE從他自己本身那邊就馬上取消嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10864.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10882.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
馬上鎖掉嗎LINE跟我們解釋的事情是這樣假設我今天是被我的LINE帳號被人家騙走了那詐騙集團在另外一台手機上去登入他把我搶走了但是我在原來這台手機上我再登入一次以後我就可以馬上把那個LINE的帳號再搶回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10883.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10911.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
同時喔 同步嗎確定技術上是這樣子喔他們是這樣跟我們講的他們是這樣跟你講的喔但是你是數位發展部你有你的專業啊你要告訴國人說第一個LINE講的對不對能不能做到那我們國人等於是速發部要告訴國人以後如果你的LINE帳號被冒用了被盜了那應該怎麼樣SOP緊急處理那以防他身邊周遭的人被詐騙啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10912.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10934.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
是那現在依照我們得到訊息第一個就是要呼籲那個所有的民眾盡快更新你的LINE版本更新到最新的版最新的版本就有這個功能那依照LINE的講法就是說現在這個新的版本有這個功能我們可以馬上把這個LINE帳號搶回來那這個事情我們會做驗證是不是如同他們所說的我已經驗證了 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10936.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10939.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
你已經驗證過了,部長已經驗證過了,所以部長驗證說LINE的這個說法而且這個做法是可行的,而且是可以及時阻止詐騙對,我自己有兩個手機驗證過你驗證過了齁?好,我們等著看齁,我不希望國人第一個,還繼續告訴我們他的LINE帳號被盜了,結果呢都被詐騙了 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10958.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10975.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
這個新的功能我有看一下確實是你可以把那個我希望速發部可以大力的宣傳告知國人這個SOP如何主詐好不好那第二個我為什麼會提到這個今天很多委員都在講假訊息講詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10977.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10987.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
根據去年 這個是去年你們的新聞這個台灣網路的報告也是我們自己的網路資訊中心所公布的 2024 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10992.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11016.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
78.82%的社群媒體使用者認為平台充斥的假新聞跟不實訊息那在即時通訊裡面有63.25%那在傳統的媒體裡面比例為59.81%那在這個民調裡面台灣國人接受訪問者有過半以上51.2%以上的受訪者是不信任政府有能力應對網路攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11018.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11044.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
這是一個數位治理的一個信任危機喔部長你有看過這一份報告嗎這份報告你沒看過對不對部長你該看看我才要進一步問你原來你不知道這一份報告這個呢是去年的報告去年的11月底公佈的一個報告那去年11月底離現在又已經快過半年了部長你認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11046.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11069.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
你認為國人有比較相信你了嗎有比較信任數位發展部了嗎我們繼續努力啦那當然我們有很多時候需要跟群眾多溝通那這一這半年來我們的確在各方面有在不管是經過就是說經過新聞經過一些我們的努力希望民眾看到讓我們在數位治理能夠讓民眾相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11070.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11084.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
第一個你自己還沒有看過這份報告所以你也不知道原來國人是怎麼的不信任你第二個我們要如何積極的作為取回國人的信任尤其在這份報告裡面我們將近65%的國人在這個民調出來之前的三個月內就接受過詐騙訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11095.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11111.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我認為這個數據當然是參考但是部長你必須去認真的面對這些數據為什麼是我們對數位發展部的一個數位治理的信任危機那我們數位發展部又如何來迎回國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11112.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11128.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
對你們的信任嘛所以剛剛委員講就是說其實這裡面很多的觀點是從詐騙那詐騙確實我們在尤其是今年之後確實看到尤其是在網路平台上的詐騙有大量減少大概減少了百分之八九十所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11128.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11146.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
慢慢民眾也感覺到就是說在臉書在一些平台上看到假冒名人廣告或假投資廣告有在減少但是當然我們還需要繼續努力不過我們希望投資廣告現在都進入那個LINE的這個封鎖性的封閉性的那種群組裡面了對但是這個因為一開始你要把 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11146.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11164.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
民眾引到一個封閉性的群組要從一個公開的平台那公開平台就是剛剛講以前都是臉書那這一塊是有建設不過一旦進入封鎖性的平台其實問題是我們也沒有辦法去偵測到所以我們現在是勸民眾一樣你要進入封鎖性平台教民眾怎麼試炸不要隨便進入這個平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11165.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11185.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
對 然後我們怎麼去主張所以夏業 我要提醒部長那你的信任危機要大作戰怎麼贏回國人對你們的信心跟信任所以我當然知道你們現在有很多的法令包括新的法令要立法那我只是在提醒從各自法裡面設了一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11187.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11212.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
資通法裡面有一個資安長我們現在要推定的這個促進資料創新利用發展條例裡面要設一個資料長這個三長之間所謂的數位三長我只是提醒部長要做數位治理要贏回國人的信任這三長之間的如何協調配合還有清楚的定位該做什麼任務這個你們要清楚的藍圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11213.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11241.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
這個清楚的藍圖 而且要跟國人說清楚啊部長給你短短的時間 你對這三者之間該如何對 這個都有他的需要啦那當然就是說這三長當然也有可能是我們機關的副所長或是類似這樣所以也有可能是有一個副所長會兼其中幾個職務不過不管怎麼樣我想這三個長之間的工作的協調我們會把它定義清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11242.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11259.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
所以目前還沒有定義清楚現在你們還沒有跨部會甚至在行政院的層級都還沒有討論到資安長資安長有資安長有我知道現在包括上市櫃公司都要有資安長還有各個我們行政機關ABC級都各自有各自的一個定位跟要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11259.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11283.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
那個資委員會正在成立中那資料促進創新條例也正在草案正在審查中那因為在你們的法例裡面都有所謂的個資長跟資料長那現在又有資安長我只是要由國人的眼光來看我們數位發展部針對這個數位治理裡面的這三長我們該未來如何在框架下 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11284.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11305.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
互相的協調合作各有各的定位 各有各的應該做的職責那我們如何把建構出一個數位治理的一個鐵三角而這鐵三角可以讓數位發展部真的引回國人的信心啦 好不好好 以上好 謝謝委員好 謝謝何新淳委員現在請陳樹業委員執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11321.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11324.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
謝謝主席 請主席邀請黃部長好黃部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11332.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11350.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
今天委員會是針對新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案進行詢問我們也知道在網路興盛之後對於整個國人的閱聽習慣都有很大的改變尤其是對於新聞的閱讀方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11353.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11357.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
因為人手一機還有這個方便性所以大部分的國人都是從這個網路上來獲得這個新聞的一個閱讀跟訊息所以也造成傳統的這個新聞媒體就是尤其是報紙媒體這個訂閱率也下滑得非常的嚴重那目前就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11376.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11394.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
也因為這個網路平台的一方獨大所以也造成就是說有一些媒體雖然轉往網路來發展可是他們也是受制於這個媒體所以對他們的一個發展也是有很大的一個限制所以目前應該整個新聞產業跟這個媒體之間也是呈現一個不平衡的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11402.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11427.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
所以相信很多新聞產業媒體應該也都是傾向希望能夠朝向新聞有價這樣子的一個方向那本席也看到最近我們蘇發部的次長在出席一個公開的論壇一個記者會的時候也有說新聞應有價那我想請問一下部長這樣子的一個想法是我們蘇發部的立場嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11428.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11443.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
從一開始那個我就一直認為剛剛講沒錯因為那個這個新聞同業者他們剛剛講不管去採訪新聞或是去這個做這個新聞的編輯還有等等的工作其實是蠻辛苦所以應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11445.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11467.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
工作上就要受到一定的酬勞所以不能夠因為平台業者的出現讓這些工作變成就是收入減少所以我們認為新聞有價是一定要去推動那這個是我們一直努力目標那只是在過程中我們也做了很多研究跟很多訪談那確實那可以看到國際的情勢確實在這個時間點這個問題變得比較複雜所以我們目前還在評估所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11475.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11484.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
一定要推動但是也是有它的急迫性但是我們希望找到一個最好的方案讓台灣的新聞媒體能夠受益而不是受害 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11485.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11511.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
是那就是這個也是一個你說有急迫性也是需要推動的那請問部長我們蘇華部這邊有參考其他國家的做法嗎有我們就參考大概就三種做法嘛一種就是剛剛講就是就是我們強迫議價法那是以澳洲為主然後著作臨接權是以歐盟為主澳洲跟這個強迫議價法包括加拿大那當然還有一些基金的一些就配合基金的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11512.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11527.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那所以這三個方法都有國家在實施也都有遇到一些問題那尤其是我們現在的這個委員所提的這個強迫議價化所以主要是看澳洲那澳洲目前在2024年 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11530.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11547.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
幾乎這兩個大媒體包括Google包括Meta都停止復會所以這個會讓我們擔心我們推動因為我們真的要針對也是這兩個大媒體公司我們擔心說就是這樣的一個立法如果反照歐洲立法是不是會有效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11548.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11574.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
然後所以我們這個還在考慮說是不是有一種什麼樣混合的方法或怎麼樣方法來讓媒體能夠在商業機制的一個就是說有個正常的商業的一個商業的這個機制下能夠去去所謂的這個談判能夠得到該有的回應的報酬這個就是我們還在跟各方面在溝通然後我們也在觀察國際的發展趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11575.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11599.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
是 因為我們看到目前已經有實施就是澳洲還有加拿大還有歐盟那可是他們實施之後卻遭受到這個平台就是Meta跟Google的一個抵制拒絕付費然後甚至是封鎖他們的新聞的露出如果是這樣子一個狀況反而好像是對於這個閱聽者就是一般民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11600.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11619.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
就是造成一個傷害這樣子又不是我們願意看到的一個結果那如果是這樣子的話就是說澳洲跟加拿大就這樣子的一個發生這樣狀況讓我們借鏡了如果說我們來實施媒體溢價法的話我們有那個能力去跟平台談判嗎這個就是我們所擔心的就是說事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11626.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11650.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
因為像Meta在台灣的流量裡面小於3%的流量是跟新聞相關的所以它很可能會決定一樣不提供任何新聞所以事實上對一般媒體的流量反而會減少這是我們擔心的所以這個我們必須要再評估然後是不是要再我們當然也會持續跟Meta溝通我們希望找出一個大家可以接受的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11651.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11665.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
是 因為其實事實上就是說以目前整個網路的一個生態好像都是受制於平台因為像目前我們全世界使用大概都是依賴Meta還有這個Google |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11666.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11688.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
可是這兩個大的一個平台 他們都是利用這個演算法還有就是相關的這樣子的一個手段來審核我們不管是媒體或者是個人在使用上的一個內容的一個露出或者是就是這個點閱率 觸及率所以這樣子一個狀況 事實上是一個失衡的一個狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11690.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11704.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
當然對於整個傳統媒體或者是網路媒體他們的一個營收也是受到很大的一個衝擊所以就是說未來我們當然要好好的去審慎評估怎樣去推動這個媒體溢價然後也要去思考說 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11705.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11727.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
這個媒體溢價的方式立法之後是不是可以真正的協助這個媒體來改善他們產業所面臨的一個困境那另外一方面我們當然也是希望就是說要怎樣去思考就是讓這個平台還有媒體還有這個閱聽者就是民眾三方面應該都是共創三盈的一個狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11729.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11751.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
只要一方獨大 甚至因為我剛剛提到的這個網路平台的獨大他利用就是他們基於他們自己的這個收益的問題來控制這個內容跟觸及率這樣子對整個民主國家的一個言論自由也是一個很大的一個傷害所以這部分也都是我們必須要審慎去評估跟面對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11752.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11757.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝委員監督謝謝陳樹葉委員現在請邱若驊委員執行好 謝謝主席 主席請速發部黃部長好 黃部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11777.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11794.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
好 邱委員好部長好 部長北溪上週在質詢有關打炸APP的時候就已經有發現了所以今天北溪要再確認一次這個APP到現在是不是還是在公測的階段現在還是在公測的階段現在還是在公測的階段 那我想要請問什麼時候正式版才會推出請署長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11799.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11811.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我們有設定一個下載數以及通報數因為上次您有提到嘛去年上架後來又下架今年四月再次上架那為什麼到目前還是公測版的 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11814.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11837.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
謝謝委員那個基本上是坦白講是因為我們這個APP那個第一次公測的時候那個反應非常好就使用的人數太大太多結果造成我們那個各部會要做會議因為本席有印象上次提到在安卓平台的下載數他大概約為五千人那部長也有提到是在LOS平台上面約萬人下載嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11839.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11860.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
所以因為人數太多的關係我們要確定我們的系統承載的了不是硬體的系統承載的了我們現在大部分是用自動化的方式來處理但是還有少部分需要各部會去做確認那我們是擔心說造成各部會太大短時間之間我們要確定說都能順利的譬如說他們在Meta上面發現有詐騙廣告然後會 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11865.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11877.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
藉由這個APP來回報那你們還要跟警管會再來確認沒有錯吧然後才能認定他到底是不是詐騙是那我想請問這樣子全國性的政策打造工具還停留在測試測試的階段這樣推得動嗎那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11881.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11909.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
我們到目前為止我們這個成效應該算是相當不錯的我們收到的通報量跟下架量可不可以慢慢說通報量目前是19萬那我們下架量是10萬那不好意思我想再確認那什麼時候正式版的會推出這個其實已經是就是公測版其實已經是正式的所以這公測版就是正式的只是我們保留一些如果還有bug的話我們還要再來修改這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11910.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11920.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
OK 了解那本席上次也有提到就是希望可以提高民眾的使用率那也有說要不要加入獎勵機制那後面速發部有再回去討論嗎獎勵機制 討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11925.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11944.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
我們現在後續可能有在研議怎麼去把這個東西推廣下去例如說我們如果後續有一些到民眾去啊到像有一些熱領的一些社區看看怎麼去推廣去下載這些東西那本席再請NCC陳代主委陳代主委不好意思黃部長也先請留步 謝謝主委早 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11954.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11981.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
隨著科技發展那現在手機和無線網路嘛一定是民眾生活中不可缺的工具不管是線上購物然後還是看新聞投資理財點外送全部都是仰賴手機還有無線網路那本席了解速發部在111年8月之前電信業務是由NCC獨立負責的沒有錯吧是的沒錯是那我們看到速發部成立之後才把部分的電信從NCC轉移過去那現在是速發部在主管是正確嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11982.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11987.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
處發部在管平利資源跟產業輔導獎勵產業輔導獎勵因為本席為了要釐清業務的歸索那當時電信業務它一分為二的目的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11995.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12013.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
都是因為NCC本身是個監理機關在通訊傳播基本法第三條第一項跟第二項分別有規劃出它基本的釐清的原則都是監理部分通常會做獨立的監理至於頻率有限資源還有產業輔導本來頻率的 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12015.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12039.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那一塊本來是在原來交通部有練師所以當時是那個電信管理法電信業的主管機關是NCC剛剛主委您有提到那電信評估的規劃分配還有核定是誰負責的現在因為在數位部成立之後行政院有公告說那一塊是數位部那電信門號的回收還有分配呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12041.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12063.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
也是數位部也是數發部那收取固定還有行動通訊的頻率然後電信號碼的使用費用是誰在收應該也是數位部也是數位部啊不是NCC在收嗎對它是號碼也是也是電信資源所以它電信資源整塊的分配管理都是在那邊那這樣的權責分配兩位認為合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12069.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12086.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
應該是說在政府間的合作上有些是基於這個出發點是因為當初是獨立監理是要一個機關我們看到5G是先由速發部來核定頻率接著再由NCC就是通傳會來審議它的營運計畫還有網路建設的計畫那這樣是流程是這樣子沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12091.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12115.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
大致是這樣沒錯大致是這樣那是不是這樣我也本身要確認便利的拍賣是數位部然後拍賣拍賣取得這中取得特許執照的過程裡的NCC的角色那行動寬頻裝用電信網路設置的使用管理辦法他主管機關是誰數位部現在又變成數位部那數位部他具體審核哪些項目我們是不是請產業署署長來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12118.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12147.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
就是它4.8到4.9Ghz那一塊的專用它是會促進產業發展 垂直應用的那一塊那4.8、4.9這一塊是由事務參組這邊來召開委員會來審查所以就是可能常委組有需要的話他就來申請那我們這邊召開委員會審查的時候通過就就核發那個評估使用也是將來的主張是因為建設計畫是在通常會來審嗎那審查的標準的方式是什麼你們兩邊怎麼來做協調的我們會有兩個部位的共同的一個審查的一個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12150.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12174.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
現在母法是在NCC 可是執法一大堆都是丟在數位部嗎各位補充一下 母法本身也有分工 那個秦城有公告 數位部第幾條 第幾條 現在目前分工合理嗎就沒有問題嗎 民眾不會搞不清楚嗎業者會認為說他會比較累一點他會比較累一點 那你們有沒有想過要再去做調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12176.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12203.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
還是業者累沒關係不要累到你們就好民眾的福利能夠保持住比較重要民眾什麼福利啊我們都知道真的主委你這個說法我其實如果今天我們沒有這樣子一一的攤開來看我相信很多民眾也都不知道都是因為我們兩個部位合作的合作無間所以對民眾連他相對不知道但是他感覺上跟你們合作無間你確定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12205.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12214.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
總是會有討論啦總是會有討論那我覺得我是覺得你們還是要再回去再研議啦因為目前的這樣分工看起來這樣一刀兩切亂七八糟的 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12215.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12237.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
可以主委請再跟部長我們回去再做討論好嗎這個是行政院級的議題我們會再來討論所以行政院說了算嗎你們覺得這樣子這樣子也沒關係嗎因為主宰的層次是行政院的職權OK好謝謝主席好謝謝邱若驊委員現在請廖先祥委員執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12249.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12255.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
謝謝主席 邀請我們抒發部黃部長還有我們通傳會陳代理主委好 請黃部長 陳代理主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12264.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12286.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
兩位好 今天的主要的討論議題是新聞媒體跟數位平台的議價法案在一些其他國家接近有不同的做法就是可能一種做法是個別媒體業者的簽約一種做法是直接一筆類似代金還怎麼樣的金額給國家對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12288.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12298.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
如果說我們國家未來要推的話兩位認為未來會朝哪一個方面去推哪一種會是比較適合的 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12301.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12322.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
報告委員這個現在就是說有幾個方就說目前在這個我們新聞這個怎麼樣去讓新聞有價落實那這個目前就是三種主要是三種方案那那個三個方案其實都有國家在實施然後都有遇到一些問題所以當然就是說在目前我們也在觀察尤其是在最近又 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12323.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12342.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
因為政治的關係又有關稅的問題所以等到這個比較清楚我們希望之後跟能夠跟我們的大院溝通也能夠去跟民眾溝通找到一個最合適台灣的方案那我們就會那希望盡快不過目前的確沒有哪一個方法說是那我想聽聽看我們NCC的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12343.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12371.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
跟委員報告在我們110年有做產業調查其實現行在沒有這個立法之前已經有不少的業者已經跟平台有協商溢價有協商溢價他們都是兩兆之間會有契約關係啦但是都是不透明業者都是不透明所以你們認為未來如果立法後你們會傾向哪一種方案在NCC新聞媒體獨立的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12374.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12400.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
因為NCT的管轄範圍是傳統的廣電有拿執照的那一塊這塊目前是暫時不在我們的作用法在我們的權值範圍但是我們的產業調查的結果發現他們認為還是說大概有簽約大概是希望平台能夠跟他的溢價能夠透明他希望制度能夠透明那至於說是剛剛部長所提到的三個方法其實各界都還在討論當中沒有一個定論 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12400.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12423.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
我今天這個新聞有價這件事情當然是一個討論的一個層次那另外一個層次我想討論的是這個新聞一個新聞業或者是媒體業記者存在一個最大的一個價值在於他能夠自由的來批判時事無論是政府還是社會各面向的一個問題那如果說我們現在的一個數位平台將來 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12426.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12453.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
如果說他是用個別簽約的跟個別媒體來簽約的話那就變成了說這個平台他可能過去是如果說他沒有做任何的一個限制的話是任何一個媒體的一個多元化的一個報導都可以在這個平台上面去露出如果他沒有特別的限制的話那如果說他有特別去限制的話他可能就會被一些輿論走去批判做一些可能他是做一些思想審查等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12454.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12475.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
那如果說我們將來的一個法令上路了之後我們都知道其實沒有任何一家媒體或者是任何一個人或任何一家公司它沒有意識形態一定都有啦 這一定都有的包括Google有它自己的意識形態臉書有它自己的意識形態那如果說未來的議價的法案上路了之後它可不可以反而過去它可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12476.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12495.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
不敢被人家扣他怕被扣上一個審查言論自由連帽子他不敢去做一些新聞媒體披露的一些審查他必須要讓所有的新聞媒體都公平的露出至少搜尋的到當然演算法他可能有內部的一個機制那如果說未來有個議價法上路了之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12496.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12506.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
那這家這個數位平台它未來會不會有它自己的一個思想審查在未來溢價的一個過程當中這是我非常擔心的你說歐美的會不會有歐美的 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12507.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12535.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
可能會有應該說每一個每一家廠商都會有那甚至我們現在討論到另外一個更會對這個思想進行審查的可能這個對岸大陸的媒體你說他有很多一個平台那他未來在這個相關的新聞媒體上架的時候他會不會利用議價的一個手段來做一個言論審查的一個機制我擔心的是這一個那部長或者是說主委就這個面向你們可不可以提出你們的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12537.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12558.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
這的確是一個就是說這的確是可以會令人擔心的就是說他們議價過程中議價這個怎麼決定因為其實我們看到像澳洲其實就是幾家大媒體他有去議價其他他都沒有去議價所以言論會集中在這幾家大媒體的立場那其實這是不好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12558.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12586.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
甚至他在議價的過程中他給人家不合就是給軟釘子嘛給一個不合理的價格不符合他這個思想價值的一個符合思想價值的他可以用很比較好的一個價格去簽約不符合他思想價值的媒體他用他認為不合理的價格導致簽約簽不成那這個就會導致未來的一個新聞媒體他沒有辦法在這個平台是多元化的一個給大眾那就可能變成思想牽制的一個情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12587.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12606.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那NCC你們這邊的立場公務員報告這個是在目前現在情況是沒有未來如果要立法的話有類似我們這個有限電視頻道上架有限電視平台的有一個條款類似說你要公平公平對待啦那也許未來的立法裡頭也許會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12608.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12621.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
對應的類似的條款來要求說你不可以因為要做言論價值的審查來連線連到說你要跟我議價的一個權利啊或者範圍或者分身的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12622.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12650.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
所以我認為就是我們當然是希望新聞有價它是一個價值但是應該有一個更高的價值在於新聞它的一個言論的自由批判的一個自由那先要維持新聞的它的一個批判跟這個評論的一個自由那我們再來來保障他們的一個新聞有價的一個價值我也希望說後續再做一些相關討論的時候這一個更上層的東西我們要避免它被一些思想箝制的它變成一個思想箝制的一個工具好不好 以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12654.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12681.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
好 謝謝廖先祥委員現在請魯明哲委員執行好 謝謝主席有請我們市委部黃部長好 魯委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12682.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12707.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
好 部長今天主要這個要開始我們有一些法案嘛針對你們所謂媒體溢價相關的一些立法但我們今天早上就看到你們昨天有表達意見嘛就擔心這個可能會造成美國關稅的一個報復嘛我看到報紙這樣寫是你的意思嗎是我們研究的出來的結果對研究出來的結果 好那現在 現在有個問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12710.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12737.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
這個當然就是川普總統啊讓美國再次偉大各個總統要讓他國家再偉大我是覺得一點錯都沒有好他提出了這個關稅關稅的大戰已經開始了那所有人都知道那是貨品貿易具體的透過空運海運運過去的互相世界的一個貿易具象的貨品貿易那請問一下Google Meta這是貨品貿易還是服務貿易 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12738.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12767.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
報告委員事實上有個實際的例子就是說美國貿易代表署跟護國家安全顧問他提出一個十項不公平的數位貿易慣例數位貿易也是列為他們一個所謂關稅的一個考量所以並沒有不是只有實體的貨品所以這個部長能不能有一點我們中華民國我們台灣的立場好不好因為我們聽到MEGA美國偉大我們已經背得好熟啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12767.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12790.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那台灣呢我跟你講現在簡單來說川普總統的邏輯很清楚嘛因為主要的一個關稅貨品貿易因為他都是逆差你們這麼多國家賣這麼多東西給我我輸出的巨項一個貨品這麼少所以對美國不公平所以他要去做一個用關稅才來調整是他一個基本的邏輯 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12792.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12810.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那服務貿易抱歉倒過來對台灣來講這種世界貿易的服務貿易的一個形態台灣對美國我們是逆差啊逆差啊川普這種邏輯就是說抱歉對台灣不公平服務貿易啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12811.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12833.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
沒有 我是希望你們在討論這個事情要有一些立場而且你們在談判的時候總是有一些對我有利的吧還是一去就是趴在地下嗎這本來就Full Money你們賺這麼多錢從不管是Google Meta Netflix你只要講出來的賺錢不用打關稅就來來去去所以這個部分我覺得是應該變成政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12833.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12850.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
一個討價還價的一個籌碼所以我也希望說這個數位部在這方面能夠在談判的時候就你們的立場所有這種服務貿易也能夠來幫忙這個談判能夠促成那我再請教一下你今天有特別提出來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12853.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12876.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
這個溢價相關的一些法案 你有點擔心那當然因為這個關稅大戰是大概上個月才開始那請問一下你去年在幹嘛那個 報委等一下我講完 110年啦 你還沒上任啦你這個整個行政院當時就成立國內產業大型數位平台共融發展協調小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12878.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12903.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
然後到111年 112年總共開了三輪八次會議八次會議平台業者產業不斷去討論那到底遇到什麼問題我不知道可是到了112年的9月最後一場會議開完之後到113年5月20號跟著新政府上任之後你一次會也沒有開嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12904.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12919.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
我跟你講 去年還沒發生貿易戰嘛你今天寫給我的 我理解 喔 現在發生這個事情那請問一下 你去年在幹什麼還是你壓根子 講一下數位部 這個黃部長你的心態是說 我就是不想弄啊是不是 到底怎麼回事 你去年在幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12920.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12944.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
報告委員我一上任就有很多就是對這個問題就很多的這個不管是工協會媒體還有媒體還有包括這個所謂的學者跟我討論這個議題我們一直很關注那我們那時候也在跟這個平台商也有一家不斷的協商那再說因為這一年多的變化蠻大的所以會讓我們原來我們原來我剛上任的時候他們有跟我講說經過這麼多次討論結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12947.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12959.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那個覺得是 所謂住座臨界圈是一個可走的方向但是呢 經過這一年 也發現住座臨界圈也是有它很多的缺點所以變成就是說 現在這個這個問題 那當然這裡面很多討論剛剛講這個 跟我們有很多這種 關於這個這個數位 這個媒體的討論我最主要是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12970.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12994.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
112年的9月6號是這個八次會議的最後一次你上任之後不管是前朝或這一朝都沒有這開因為你是主責單位你要叫NCC相關單位文化部大家一起來討論你既然沒有做讓我們非常懷疑在關稅大戰之前你到底認為是這是一個麻煩事你也講出來就直接說可是我們看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12995.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13016.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
幾個單位的報告都說這個媒體有價你們都全力支持希望能夠促成那第二個我想請教一下你特別有談了現在世界各國有在進行的譬如說2021最早澳洲完成了那加拿大2023那歐盟他是用另外的著作權的一個臨接權的這種概念去做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13017.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13037.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
有點不一樣但是希望讓新聞是有價的這種的努力跟社群平台去協調那當然我就不一講了那從澳洲也好Google他有達成那個協議然後提供了資金然後加拿大Google也是提供一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13039.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13061.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
1億加幣1年23億台幣持續5年115億那再來歐盟呢歐盟就是太多國家了談不清楚那Meta的立場現在也清楚啦他就不玩啦談好了也不玩了就是反臉了就這樣那這種情況我真的是有一個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13063.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13084.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
我知道你們有很多的一個顧慮啊可是我們也希望是不是讓台灣也有點在這上面有個立場我們是服務貿易被人家賺錢的國家在那邊不吭不哈什麼都不敢說也沒有道理吧太過分了不要說嘛談不成的不要說那我一樣以加拿大四千萬人口是我們人口的1.7倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13085.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13102.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
他的新聞媒體對1.7倍他五年的計畫 Google五年的計畫115億台幣好不好那現在Google也謝謝他是台灣第一個在談的過程2023年他講三年一年1億台幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13104.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13125.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
然後就這樣嗎我是覺得因為你現在還沒開過會我覺得不能這樣我覺得這兩個加起來人口差1.7倍但是他提供的讓我們媒體能夠有這樣的一個資金不管是版權或者AI提升各方面他提供的資金是3億比115億我們將近40倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13128.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13136.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
我倒是覺得這個法案有沒有立什麼時候立起來但是這個部分我是建議是不是部長能夠接續能夠為了我們這個國家的這個整體的新聞發展利益來繼續協調可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13144.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13159.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
不過剛剛委員講說我們都沒有開過會這是不對的因為事實上這個東西我們內部開了好幾次會議然後我們也跟平台業者因為重點是平台業者要不要配合所以我們也甚至飛到美國跟像Meta有開過會所以這個問題的因為是這個問題本身我們很關注 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13162.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13178.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
我知道你們開很多會啦什麼詐騙啊什麼都有我是講你那個整個大的行政院下面的機構我們調的文件這個機構就沒有跟你自己開會那兩回事啦那今天當然是真的是鼓勵你啦我們要去談判最後啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13180.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13202.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
我們真的也發覺 尤其在歐盟很多國家在談的過程中 蠻難界定的 包括什麼叫新聞新聞的界定 那版權到底是誰 譬如說是他家的攝影鏡頭 然後媒體拿到了 那錢到底誰分論嘛是那一家的那個個人 對不對 還是我那個法人 還是 那到底要分給誰呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13204.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13221.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
對不對還是錢要跟誰要所以我在想喔這個問題我是覺得你們勢必要去認真去研議啦委員已經提了這麼多版本而且三個黨都有提出版本就等於說各黨派的一個共識都希望能夠去推讓新聞有價那現在顯來顯來這左邊是四種 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13226.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13241.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
現在常看到的媒體的來源你看到一個好消息第一個有媒體自行去蒐集的喔自行採訪這個真的算是新聞媒體最賤鬼我就自己採訪自己發掘那百分之百是這個新聞媒體的這個沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13243.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13262.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
第二個是媒體引述其他人的新聞不管廠商活動這兩個是媒體的第三個現在有超多的新聞我覺得至少三分之一就誰家的行車紀錄器誰家的監視系統看到小偷跑過去車被偷然後就別人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13264.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13291.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
新聞點是在那個影片是一個屬於個人或是一個社區的他拿過來民共提供但是媒體報導他到底錢到底要分誰當然最後一個像爆料公司啊社群平台他做一個爆料被營用的所以新聞的產生的一個架構蠻多的來源也不一定那這個新聞如果有分論到底要給誰這是一個未來要思考的問題好不好因為時間已經超過很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13292.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13303.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
麻煩我是覺得整個大的平台真的要開個會了好不好因為委員提了這麼多版本你整個行政院的平台還是要運播起來我們會很重視各委員的版本會再跟委員討論好謝謝魯明哲委員現在請陳培宇委員執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13319.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13325.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
好 謝謝主席我可以直接請那個述發部的林次長嗎 林進次長林次長好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13332.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13352.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
市長午安我其實從這個新聞議價法媒體議價法我其實直接想跟你討論其實就是四個字叫做內容有價因為不管是在過去新聞媒體時代或者是現在所謂的大型語言模型就是所謂大家日常現在用的非常習慣的chat GPT其實這些語料模型背後都需要有意義的 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13352.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13375.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
資料是那我們來看一下現在的狀態是這樣來下一張在台灣其實二零二五年的一月二十雜誌公會他們推內容有價侵權有罪這件事情而且有相關的訴訟正在進行我相信你是清楚的我就不再贅述其實不只新聞媒體的內容有價過去傳統出版產業的內容也是有價的那在訓練這些餘料模型上來往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13376.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13397.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
我們回到加拿大他們有這個負面的例子就是跟台灣一樣他們控告OpenAI在未經許可而且沒有付費的情況下盜取新聞機構數以百萬計受版權保護的文章於是呢這五個新聞機構就對OpenAI提起訴訟那目前訴訟正在進行中這個是比較負面的例子跟台灣一樣可是我們也看到正面的例子我們來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13398.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13425.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
Chubb GPT花錢跟很多英國媒體從衛報開始整個大型的媒體集團開始用付費的方法授權使用這個資料尤其在Chubb GPT的Search版我們看到他們所用的都是這些我們認為非常精緻的語料資料餵給這個模型然後於是產出的內容就變得相對有意義那其實很多使用者也都大聲叫好但是我要說有訴訟的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13426.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13443.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
也有合理授權 合法授權 付錢的部分所以看起來這件事情此時此刻正在世界上發生好 下一張我看到速發部在3月3號有這個新聞稿我相信這應該是速發部主動提供的次長您在相關的媒體報導中 您說 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13444.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13466.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
建立台湾主权AI训练的语料库松绑著作权法而且要免费提供训练语料给国内国外的大型语言模型让他们使用台湾的资料减少AI厂商跟内容拥有者的著作权纠纷我从一路讲到现在意思就是说我们台湾的速发布看起来 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13466.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13491.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
知道世界的趨勢就是有訴訟的部分也有合法合理授權的部分看起來抒發部現在在這件事情上想要採一個角色就是協助內容擁有者跟語料廠商AI廠商找到一個合作的可能性而不要去採進訴訟這件事情所以您剛剛說在這個新聞稿當說要免費提供訓練語料我想要說一下這個idea是怎麼來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13492.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13509.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
因為我們在於說我們拿一些資料去訓練AI的model的時候到底這些AI model的廠商要不要付費來取得這些資料給這些內容擁有者這件事情本身是一個兩難一方面就是說那個內容的擁有者他覺得說我覺得要收錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13510.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13526.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
可是對於這些大型的AI模型來講的話其實我也跟他們溝通過他們對於說使用台灣的資料來訓練他們的模型他們事實上是很有疑慮的事實上不是因為他們腹部起錢而是他們擔心會侵權 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13527.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13548.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
因為他們需要而且他們覺得說他要花很多的時間去跟台灣的內容擁有者去做那個談判他們擔心的是這個部分那結果造成的狀況呢是說像那個ChatterGPT或者是LAMA或者是這種外國的模型他在選擇那個中文語料庫的時候他們常常是拿中國的語料庫因為中國比較不注重 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13551.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13578.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
知識財產權所以那個變得比較容易比較沒有法律風險那結果最後的結果是很不好的就是當我們用中文問問題的時候可能就會產出Garbage in Garbage out的問題所以我先肯定書法部在這件事情上先踩住了一個立場就是要協助所謂的內容擁有者跟國內外的AI廠商但問題也就來了當你已經先喊出想辦法先找到免費授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13580.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13597.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
或者是沒有著作權為優先各式各樣的語料資料我覺得這是很重要的一步但是我來我自己來自於所謂內容產業界我必須要說台灣的內容產業界不論是來下一張不論是好先直接跳下一張我要說台灣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13598.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13619.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
生產內容的這些創作者不管是像楊雙子最近得了美國國家圖書獎或者是很棒的動畫廠商或者是我們在波羅納德大獎的插畫家這些都還只是我簡單的舉例這些有意義的而且高品質的素材其實可能才是下一步速發步你們的挑戰也就是我們剛開始先促成了這個合作的橋樑可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13620.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13639.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
當餘料廠商這些AI廠商他們說我們想要更多很棒的資料協助我們產出有意義的內容的時候公司的發展是有價值的速發部未來要如何協助協同文化部協助這些內容擁有者真的可以找到一個合理的對談模式之餘對這些AI廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13640.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13653.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
首先在政策上面我們是主張就是說如果沒有經過正式的授權的話這些語言模型它不能隨便拿台灣的這些語調去當然這個非常非常重要免得遇到像加拿大那個訴訟一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13655.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13672.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
我們剛剛講除了那些免費的我們提供免費的以外我們認為說高品質的這些乳料其實應該是正式取得授權而且付費那我們就想辦法在法律上面我們跟文化部一起合作想辦法建立出一個規則然後一個計價的方法降低這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13673.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13700.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
這個negotiation的那個成本 這樣子的話不管是台灣或者是國外的這些那個大型圓模型LLM他們就會更方便更快速的取得這些這些餘料 就如同我們剛才所講的 其實他們真正在乎的不是他付多少錢 因為對他們來講這些錢不是很大的金額他們在乎的是這個協商的成本以及這個法律侵權的那個可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13700.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13715.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
還有就是跨國文化之間的不同啦我必須要這麼說你讓這些open air的廠商他到台灣來要找到這些內容擁有者直接對話其實是困難的但是我透過速發部跟文化部合作的平台真的在假以時日我們真的希望在台灣我們也可以聽到很棒的case |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13715.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13743.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
就是像他們跟衛報買相關內容一樣作為繁中語料在整個openAI的模型或是其他廠商的模型當中是有意義的所以我這邊是快速雖然你在新聞稿上說這個其實需要花一些時間來我們下一張最後我的建議是說我們有沒有機會請書發部跟專家學者受到影響產業代表制裁局 國科會 文化部等相關單位嚴寧相關的進度我希望有機會在三個月內召開會議六個月內提供相關規劃報告是有機會的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13745.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13759.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
是 我們報告員我們會朝這個方向努力好 好 我想所有內容業者跟所謂的AI廠商都非常期待在部會的協調之下真的幫他們找到一個合理的而且合法的對話窗口 好嗎是好 謝謝次長 謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝陳培宜委員現在請黃國昌總召執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13775.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13804.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
來 謝謝主席 麻煩有請NCC代理主委好 NCC陳代主委委員好主委好 NCC事實上癱瘓非常久了啦理由非常的多 我為什麼說NCC癱瘓很久了我等一下進一步 資訊的內容會進一步的說明先從第一步開始NCC組織法修正通過生效了以後搞了五個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13805.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13832.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
搞了五個月新的NCC主委提名名單沒有辦法送到立法院來左榮泰之前總諮詢的時候承諾四月底以前要送來今天已經五月一號了什麼時候會送來還是你也不知道我是看沒報導這禮拜應該有機會這禮拜應該有機會今天禮拜四嘛所以剩下明天禮拜五一個主委提名搞五個月送不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13834.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13847.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
誰在台灣NCC是行政部門在台灣NCC還是立法部門在台灣NCC你覺得呢一個主委的提名單搞五個月送不出來誰在台灣NCC |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13853.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13869.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
主委委員的提名職權是在行政院嘛不關你的事啦所以是行政院院長在台灣NCC這個話你講不太出來沒關係接下來就關你的事啦今天事啦從一開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13870.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13891.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
在深射執照取得執照的過程當中政治的黑手就直接伸到NCC裡面去整個醜聞臭不可聞結果我們的NCC在前後任主委交相接棒之下幫金電視的醜聞cover |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13893.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13916.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
超過了三年超過了三年有很多立法委員不敢得罪媒體所以可能不敢講怕被媒體追殺嘛一天到晚在PO一些抹黑抹黃的新聞但我從來不像這種惡勢力低頭的現在進電視從拿到執照到現在過多久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13921.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13947.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
應該 委員這邊的資料應該看起來超過三年了嘛對這個你自己業務要鎖啦超過了三年 過了三年要不要舉行評鑑要現在有在做嗎程序進行中程序進行中對會不會認真的評鑑還是打算繼續放水不會 都是依法辦理好評鑑的過程當中財務的狀況要不要評鑑 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13951.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13972.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
依據這個法是評鑑的項目之一好沒關係今天把我在這邊的質詢當作我公開質疑的資訊交給所有的評鑑委員做參考我為什麼這樣講這個電視台一開始在申請的時候兩位我非常敬重 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13973.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13991.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
新聞媒體界的前輩一個王維堅老師一個林立雲老師啊他們提出了質地有深的不同意見書啊有風骨我給他們很高啊的肯定當初在提不同意見書的時候啊就直指啊他們的財務狀況真的撐得下去嗎畫大餅畫成這個樣子真的做得出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13998.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14022.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
這個當初啊兩位前委員啊所提出的不同意見書都是公開的資訊當初他們提出這樣子的質疑的時候提出這樣子的質疑的時候因為喔這個是當初在申涉的時候重要的條件之一嘛他不是要成立民間版的公共電視嗎要成立民間版的公共電視就財務狀況出了這麼大的問題現在進電視啊的實收資本額有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14028.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14045.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
核准是20億他有申請30億核准是20億嘛你知不知道20億什麼時候燒完了知道嗎沒有很清楚沒有很清楚現在不是正在辦評鑑嗎財務狀況不是評鑑重點項目之一嗎我給我請我們處長來補充可以他資料送進來我們要還沒有進那個初審會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14056.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14080.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
所以現在還在程序的初階段實質的內容都還搞不清楚就對了來我給NCC主委看當初NCC評估通過了財務規劃你現在在螢幕的左手邊看到的這個深色營運計畫及補正17頁當中的第4頁這個是NCC你們當初內部審查的時候所做的PPT |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14081.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14109.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
我不曉得你看過沒有但我可以跟你保證這不是我偽造變造的這個是你們當初在審查的時候NCC內部啦你們早上夜館單位要跟主委報告的時候啊所做PPT的內容好第一個當初有做很多評估嘛有做很多預測嘛但我當初看到這個東西的時候我就發現根本在鬼扯 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14111.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14136.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
什麼叫做根本在鬼扯啊來現在每年平均稅前淨損多少錢知道嗎不是很清楚股東權益佔股本比多少知道嗎委員這邊所列五項目前手上有沒有確確的掌握好沒有關係你現在手上沒有資料沒有關係但我要提醒NCC喔這次不要再放水了 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14137.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14160.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
這次不要再放水了我上面所講的這個東西啊你們好好回去對對看當初你們在發這個執照的時候內部評估怎麼做的做得笑死人啊我今天趕在國會殿堂啊說你們當初做的內部評估笑死人啊右邊我所列出來的這五個問題負債比多少流動比多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14161.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14190.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
收入有很乎評估嗎你們在今年在做評鑑的時候這些事情都應該做嘛對不對會在考量範圍內好好做齁好好做為什麼因為10億的石頭資本額啊其實2022年年底啊就燒完了這個數字不是我編出來的是他們內部的他們內部啊自己在2022年年底的時候估出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14192.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14199.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
2022年的時候20億就燒完了現在問題來了2023年2024年到現在已經是2025年的5月1號了嘛過去兩年四個月錢從哪裡來從天上掉下來嗎說他們要來辦理申請辦理增資你知不知道他一個月虧多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14216.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14242.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
照委員的資料,除到他三年的話大概會二十億除以三年的話,一年差不多六億多對嘛,所以你還是有概念嘛一年要虧六億多啦一個月大概五千萬現在問題來了二十億燒完了以後,現在還有十幾億錢到底哪裡來?評鑑的時候好好做評鑑的時候好好做為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14243.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14252.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
之前在整個發照的過程當中NCC內神通外鬼檢舉人的資料 指證歷例 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14254.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14281.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
檢舉人的資料只證歷例結果搞了半天NCC到目前為止還有在查嗎還是查無不法謝謝指教政風體系已經查完然後相關的這個相關人大概也有提出剪掉那邊那邊在剪掉已經係數暗中是 你是不是知道剪掉從案件係數到現在稅了幾年你大概不知道啦這個責任也不是你要扛啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14283.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14299.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
睡了兩年多啊睡了兩年多啊台灣的司法現在是變成怎麼樣有執政黨撐腰啊當執政黨當鷹犬當打手啊有關係就沒關係啊案子直接放在那邊給他睡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14302.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14326.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
這個事情我公開講過非常多次了啦但涉及到的是什麼之前的洩密我看新的NCC應該也沒有辦法再查下去啦提求踢給減掉就好啦但問題是什麼當初給的行政處分是有負負擔的喔是有負負擔的喔如果發現了具有廢紙條件的負擔的話應該要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14329.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14356.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
最嚴重的時候可以廢止原來的許可最嚴重要廢止原來的許可嘛請你們好好的查下去為什麼他在申請增加資本額的時候他要講明白嘛說錢到底哪裡來的嘛是不是本來八大股東給的嘛還是有新的股東嘛之前我已經公開檢舉過很多次了連出賣股份的股東自己都承認了 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14358.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14379.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
陳泰銘自己都承認啦我股份早就賣掉啦但是NCC查無不法根本報告在他們上架的時候我們就請他們提出切結那相關的 切結有用嗎切結有用嗎他要負法律責任好來你們後來有沒有請陳泰銘來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14382.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14405.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
他當天是沒有來 但是他有委託書對 那他的委託書上面寫什麼就不關你NCC的事 你沒有權利查碼這個就是我在講的啊你們NCC面對這些大財團大老闆 亂啪啪你叫我來我不來啊 叫一個律師發一個函給你啊說這是我的隱私 我的財務資料 我為什麼要跟你講當初在騙執照的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14410.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14417.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
什麼都敢講直到騙到了以後要開始查是不是私下賣股不敢去你們那邊說謊連去都不去這位大老闆很囂張啊非常囂張啊我上面打的每一個字啊都陳泰銘自己講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14436.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14462.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
你主管機關去查資金流向嘛 錢從哪裡來 錢誰給的 錢給什麼人不就查出來了錢送到葉國一那邊 錢送到陳志遠那邊 錢送到陳靜才那邊這樣不就查出來了這塊我們當初也要喊起相關機關協力然後呢沒有一個確確的違反所以現在到底在玩什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14463.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14490.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
到底在玩什麼當事人對外自己都承認了到NCC那邊查無不法整個爛攤子一直延續到今天整個爛攤子一直延續到今天啊我希望這一次三年的評鑑到了三年評鑑到了整個營運計畫書包括當初所做的承諾是不是有切實的履行我希望這次NCC評鑑好好做 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14491.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14514.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
他目前是有兩個負擔沒有到位一個是首語新聞一個國際新聞我們已經給他罰代金他現在提起訴訟在台北高雄了沒有關係啦反正最後這次評鑑的結果社會大眾拭目以待希望NCC這一次你是現在雖然是代理的主委基本上面依法行政還是很重要的事 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14515.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14531.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
不要讓今天是覺得說他有民進黨撐腰就可以為所欲為啊可以嗎我們的一切依法行政OK好謝謝委員好謝謝黃國昌總召接下來陳其凱張其凱委員是對張其凱委員執行抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14556.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14579.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
都是要製造這個效果我們請這個速發部的黃部長還有NCC的陳主委還有公平會的毛祖密好 公平會已經問了一個早上了我覺得我們現在來解決問題我們把問題 把它我們共同來解決問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14585.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14609.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
這個新聞有價這個是還有一個公平的環境啊台灣這個媒體環境要更能夠健全這個大家都有共識嘛那經過這個早上發現有一個比較嚴重的問題就是說你提到那個川普的高官稅這個衝擊啦那事實上這個從昨天開始我覺得台灣有很多專家學者還有很多很有智慧的朋友馬上就去解決這個問題他說真正 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14612.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14631.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
會對高官稅有衝擊的其實就是你要用抽他的這個數位稅設置這個特種基金嘛對不對那這個我覺得這個我們就可以如果要解決問題這個我們就可以先把它停下來那可是可是讓這個媒體有強制溢價溢價法這個強制溢價我這件事是可以推的 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14632.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14659.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
好不好我們還是往這個方向走那我們台灣民眾黨的條文很清楚我們本來是雙管齊下有基金有強制這個議價那強制議價我清楚講一下我們這條文都已經明確講了就是說你要讓媒體有一個強制議價的一個做法讓我們可以去跟這個平台他去談就是一個給他一個法律的一個依據然後程序是要明定的這樣你才能夠有一個方法有一個依據跟你有一個強制力去跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14660.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14685.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
Google對不對跟Meta他們可以談嘛你就給他一個法源那如果我更進一步來講他們現在是有些是個別的例如說我剛剛講可能東森電視台TBS電視台或者自由跟聯合他們自己就已經已經去談了嘛對不對已經去談了嘛對不對那我是希望說我們在這次的法裡面可以明定一些政府到底怎麼去幫忙的在你們這段時間跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14686.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14710.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
跟Google他們都有聯絡嘛對不對這方面我只是覺得政府要多幫我們的媒體跟我們從業人員然後講你看今天一早大家來這邊背景你看我們那個新聞從業人員多辛苦早上都在這裡了可是現在我們碰到什麼問題他們那麼辛苦的在工作可能到後來是做白工啊結果Google就把他們的東西他們拿去用了然後他們就收了廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14712.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14733.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
所以不只是說媒體是要有價的 都是說不公平嘛我相信這個是全世界共同都應該解決的這個問題啦所以不能夠卡住 我覺得不能夠in a face就是說我們現在有一個共識就是說 你每天都吃飯一樣嘛對不對 你已經發展成不公平了對我們的媒體從業人也不公平 對我們媒體產業也不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14734.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14761.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
那政府有責任要多幫忙委員講的問題的確是問題啦那也就是我們一直很關心的問題只是說強制溢價法這個媒體溢價強制這個方法目前在經過這兩年三年在澳洲實施目前在2024年這兩個大我們講的是兩個大媒體一個Google一個Meta都不再付錢這個就變成是一個問題就是說在澳洲實施上是我們從經濟學 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14762.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14783.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
他大欺小強凌肉對不對然後對成我們台灣的媒體受到影響啊我們要去力爭嘛那沒有錯我也接受就是說沒有錯我們現在剛好碰到一個高關稅的這個風暴那可是我們不能停下來就不能音樂會社就停下來啊我們還是要去做嘛要去爭取嘛而且你看到我們台積電都去了投資了一千億美金一開始美國還弄了一個32% |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14786.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14809.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
我們該爭取自己該有的那自己不能夠先放棄啦現在是兩個問題一個就是說到底強制一價法是不是真的能夠幫助我們台灣的新聞媒體我現在這個東西從澳洲的兩年經驗看起來開始要打問號因為澳洲已經停止就是說有一些包括Economics就是經濟資源雜誌都說這個法是加拿大跟澳洲這個法是失敗的 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14810.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14830.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那主要其實我們在講所謂的這個大平台就兩個一個叫Google一個叫MetaMeta已經到處不付錢那Google也要撤出像在澳洲的付費的機制所以這個法到底是幫助了Local媒體還是傷害Local媒體這就是讓我們非常猶豫的原因因為我們看到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14831.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14859.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
並沒有幫助所以我才講就是部長你說你看還是沒有幫助我們看到為什麼是有幫助那是過他曾經兩年但是我說2024年他們做了某些停止都不代表以後不會往前走我們有跟這兩個完全負面的我講兩個很重要的事情保證你有注意去年十幾我們的這個平面媒體電子媒體跟數位媒體共同做了一個媒體共同聲明你有看到這個聲明嗎聲明裡面就講到三個事情一個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14861.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14879.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
我們的從業人員跟我們的媒體產業大大量的這個大量的這個內容啊全部都被拿去用了啊他們變成做白工這一堆臉嘛現在碰到是什麼是臉書跟Google他們還收入了這很大的一個廣告欸啊老實講你說他們有沒有有沒有有些你知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14883.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14904.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
那個Google曾經播了三年三億三億 太成立了一個基金希望在這個媒體上他們不是沒有做啦所以是可以往前走當然就是這個金額太小了因為Google跟那個Meta他們一年在台灣賺到的錢可能就是400億以上的廣告費嘛你再去提一個一年一億所以那時候很多專家寫者就很生氣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14906.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14924.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
我現在在提醒你就是說你不要變成說好像是一個不公平的狀況下是不是大輕小然後強凌弱的時候然後媒體都已經發出了要求要解決的聲音了我覺得政府要幫他們挺住要幫他們挺住而且你現在今天我一早上聽下來你好像一直覺得說走到現在好像是 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14925.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14949.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
澳洲跟加拿大變成他們後來是不是被推翻了也不一定喔這個應該是現在進行式嘛對不對以前曾經解決的問題那現在有一部分就停了還是可以繼續再談啊那更重要的我同意你我同意你如果有高關稅這個風暴那我們可以我們可以早先再開公聽會可是不能停下來好不好我們會開公聽會我們會再繼續跟那另外有一個來來那個公平會的那個主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14952.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14975.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
這次這個議價有可能是一個單一媒體去議價也有可能是一個公會集體去議價嘛對不對這裡面跟你公平會只有關係嘛對不對如果是涉及單一的話不會但是如果是涉及多媒體的話那原則上是我們是認為說這種如果這個媒體的力量如果不足的時候希望大家聯合去跟一個去談的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14976.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14994.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
我們公民法裡頭這15條聯合行為例外許可我們可以透過這個例外許可可以讓他們去聯合起來去跟Google去談這個事情這就是很積極認識嘛對不對幫我們台灣啊幫我們這個媒體啊而且另外我們在條文裡面我們明定了一條啦就是我們會免除 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14995.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15020.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
公交法裡面對於業者透過聯合組織或者是跟這個工會或者是平台去議價的一個禁止條款我們在修法裡面我們會把它拿掉好不好就是明定這個東西不要讓我們媒體要去聯合議價的時候有碰到這個困擾好不好那更重要的是你剛才說的 我覺得很好你更積極面了嘛我們去處理消極面你現在積極面更去幫他們OK好 謝謝空平我最後問一個NCC主委的來好 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15025.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15041.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
你今天早上被問到好幾次你都講說有些媒體已經去去議價了就算碰到了滿大的問題所以我具體做三個要求做三個要求這NCC要幫助我們的業者第一個要揭露要揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15042.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15063.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
Google跟臉書他們新聞內容流量貢獻度你在做用我們的媒體的這個內容的時候這個貢獻度到底有多少他要公開揭露這個你應該試著去做一個要求這個我們在條文裡面我們也會明確的要求第二個要求要揭露新聞排序或者是你推波演算法的邏輯跟變動 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15065.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15087.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
就你今天早上講的啦本來去談這個月是100萬突然下個月變50萬那問題出在什麼地方就因為沒有公開透明嘛對不對所以我要求第一項跟第二項另外第三項我們明定明定平台不得沒有預警的去修改新聞的這個內容我們現在不是只有做白宮給他們用耶有時候內容要給我們亂改耶對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15088.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15109.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
這個應該也是我們要去要求要不然這會導致我們整個媒體有時候形象受損或者我們的媒體流量也會大幅的下滑好不好後續立法的時候我們會把這個重大議題跟平台來溝通所以我們各個部會做我們該做的事情我們很期待讓我們的辛苦的新聞工作人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15110.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15134.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
得到他們該拿到的不要再繼續做白狗那希望我們的產業媒體的產業也能夠整個賤錢起來現在媒體真的是很慘啊你看每個人都在伸手跟政府要錢啊弄到後來拿我們人民的納稅錢給他有時候還要洗你的腦 這樣都不好我們只要把這個法好好修媒體醫劑法修好對我們整個媒體的產業環境啊第四錢的這個賤錢對我們民主發展會有很大幫助那這非常努力 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝張七開委員現在楊瓊英委員執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15148.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15148.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
梁委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15160.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15175.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
我們來討論這個通訊軟體它是已經成為民眾生活日常生活的一部分但是詐騙集團透過了各種方式盜用帳號竊密讓國人受害者日日在增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15175.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15197.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
所以據媒體報導在4月23號的時候盜用帳號事件陳述不窮連行政院前政務委員的LINE都被盜用了那麼對此你們的產業署署長他也表示已經邀請了警政署、刑事局等單位跟日本的LINE公司總公司來開會那他承諾會將處理的量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15200.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15225.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
從每週100件提升為200件並加快處理的流程這是你們在4月23號的時候對於這個事件我們看到的一個訊息所以在這邊請教部長我們是不是已經有要求賴公司對台灣受害的這個案件來設立緊急停權 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15226.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15230.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
以及快速恢復專案的這個機制請做說明我們這個跟那裡持續溝通那個細節我請是署長還是來 署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15237.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15266.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
那這個跟委員報告這個次長也親自來主持跟LINE的一些會議那剛剛已經在報告就是說re-login的話他這個取回他的帳號等等這些好 次長說明那個就是我們昨天有跟LINE開會那LINE他們表示說他們最新版已經上架了的那個最新版的LINE它有一個功能就是說如果我的LINE帳號被詐騙集團被騙走了那我馬上再登入的話在我原來手機上登入我就可以把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15267.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15294.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
帳號再搶回來再搶回來對恢復過來對恢復過來那這個新的版本已經上架了但是並不是所有的民眾都更新到最新的版本所以我們在這邊也要呼籲那個所有的民眾盡快的把手機上的LINE版本更新到最新的這是昨天LINE公司總公司告訴我們的是所以你們必須對對對台灣公司LINE的台灣公司是所以必須好好去宣導是很多的民眾還不知道他如果沒有更新他就沒有這個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15295.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15318.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
是所以一定要好好去宣導是那麼在這邊我特別要說的就是說美國跟韓國他都已經重新的調整整個治安防疫的這個架構那我們呢他們設置的專責機構強化跨部會因為也不是只有你們到時候還要比如說警政單位等橫向的一個聯訪非常的重要請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15319.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15348.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
我們本來就那個有治安聯防的機制嘛治安署那個可以做個蔡署長做個報告好 署長請做說明是的 謝謝委員的關心我想這個我們整個治安聯防我們就有一個治安的情資分享中心跟一個監控跟應變中心那每個關鍵機構設施他們都要領域的這些包括我們的情資分享跟監控還有應變的中心都有所以這整個聯防體系都有建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15349.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15375.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
部長您聽到署長的報告整個都有建立但是目前民眾還是非常的不安因為我們的防治機制本身認為有提升的一個空間因為我們注意任何的政策任何的法律面我們就要看他的答案如果他的答案是不符合您所 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15377.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15400.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
設置的而且是你自己都不滿意在這樣的情況之下我們更要去討論面對面對民眾所需求那個委員所講的是治安的攻擊嗎還是如果治安的攻擊現在的確台灣是治安的攻擊熱點所以我們也就是剛剛講說用聯防機制我們擋掉了每天超過兩百四十萬次的攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15401.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15426.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
所以事實上是已經在這個資安的防護上我們因為聯防 因為公司部門的公司協力確實是擋掉很多 但是當然還是有些入侵啦所以這個我們還要繼續努力 但是但是部長在我們的資安署最新的公佈最新的公佈國家資中安全情勢報告當中2024年關關我們公務機關跟2023年來做比較 我們是為真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15431.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15446.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
那你們做了那麼多的機制竟然連我們公部門都為政都敢這麼做那我們要怎麼樣去防治這個就是本席一個剛剛所說的我們既然設置了這些的機制但是答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15448.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15469.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
還是不滿意的時候我們要去精進這個方案啦這個是非常的重要因為在你治安事件的類型當中以非法入侵的事件是佔了62.52這個是非常高的一個比例啊所以在治安治理的管理上面我們認為我們多數還是停滯在什麼停滯在指引建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15471.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15491.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
報告委員我們現在有個治安法修法正在修那個如果修過之後會幫助我們治安房屋很大部長你講的就是本期要跟你討論的既然我們的答案是不如我們的理想的時候我們該當修法就是要修法那你們的進度現在到哪裡治安法已經我們詢答過了現在就是在做逐條的審查我們應該很快 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15492.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15518.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
所以要趕快盡快的去溝通因為這個已經佔了62點多觀光部門就是如此所以我們非常社會上非常迫切的需要因為我們看到我們應變的能力或許在法的立場上面你們還沒有更寬廣所以該修法就要修法該政策落實就要政策落實因為這個應變能力處理事件民眾認為他的透明度是不夠的他沒有辦法有效的去防範 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15519.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15544.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
修法我們會加速進行因為我們的目的也就是要強化政府治安體系的一個韌性最後一個議題我跟你討論數位領域的就業金卡我們從2023年上路到現在兩年到了今年二月底我們總共764人獲得了數位金卡其中以美國跟亞洲地區的人才為主那麼你們主要的類型就在於軟體開發 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15545.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15568.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
城市設計 電商跟治安的技術領域但是我們看到全球都在搶人才啊以及國內產業它轉型它非常的需要這些高科技的一個技術人才所以我們金卡的政策 請問到目前為止我們的規模跟實際上導入的人力似乎還是有限 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15569.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15586.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
還是有限為什麼會如此呢大家都這麼缺那所以我們現在兩年統計的數字764人到底我們人才進到我們台灣來他的後續落地他的創業跟就業的一個成果評估跟追蹤請說說 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15588.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15607.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
那個因為這個庶產署可以做個說明好請做說明是是跟我們報告我們會持續追蹤那我們在這爭取人才是也是花了很大力氣我們就跟國發會到美國到歐洲到東南亞到日本這個本席清楚所以本席請教你764人啊落到我們台灣來目前還在台灣貢獻還在就業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15610.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15632.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
有多少跟委員報告有一部分是本來在台灣的外國公司的外國人對他要長期在這邊所以現在你764位還有多少繼續在服務你的追蹤成果呢我們會在持續中不過目前比較沒有出不過一大部分的確是外國公司在台灣的人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15635.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15655.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
這個就是我們說的部長我們今天我們英明的召集人安排了這個議程這是你們的課業你今天已經兩年了不是兩個月你已經兩年你今天764人你到底你的成效是怎麼樣你應該要有所評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15656.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15673.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
如果我們的數字是不夠的產業界還需要那麼你們的誘因是什麼因為你們有基本的條件嘛你要滿8年的這個經驗而且公司的月薪要16萬以上而且他的學歷要跟這個相關科系 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15674.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15697.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
那你們應該去統計 你的結果到底是怎麼樣我們做任何的事情 你一定要去反覆的去討論你的成果究竟是什麼很好 繼續發揚不好 我們要達不到理想 我們要怎麼樣去精進嘛你怎麼到現在連你764人到底還有多少人落地留戀 還繼續在努力你不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15699.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15728.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
報委員這個回去我們再去整理以後再給委員一個報告不可以如此要精進你把你檢討目前為止你兩年來這個成效符不符合你的要求我認為產業界的需求你絕對達不到他的符合嘛所以如果是如此的時候你的誘因到底要怎麼去調整好不好你去查明你的評估結果到底是怎麼樣可以精進的方案是什麼我們來協助我們的產業嘛好嗎加油 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15732.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15753.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
謝謝楊瓊英委員現在請樓庭委委員執行好謝謝召委有請黃部長蘇衛部黃部長勞動部理事長好勞動部理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15761.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15786.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
部長好 市長好我想今天談到這個新聞媒體數位平台強制溢價法本席版本最重要的一個精神是建立平台的媒體得就以付費議題進行充分協商的議題程序 溢價程序唯有達到最後雙方仍舊無法達成共識的時候才會啟動仲裁機制決定平台應負擔的付費金額健全目前失靈的一個市場機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15787.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15814.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
那我想透過資訊的揭露給予雙方的一個合理溢價空間也保障了媒體從業人員今天的一個權益我想今天大家都非常的關切但是我要講的是去年10月14日台北市報業商業同業工會中華民國衛星廣播電視事業商業同業工會中市民視台視發表媒體共同的聲明希望盡速立法 公平競爭今天文化部的報告也寫到 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15815.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15826.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
收集平面媒體業的一個立法意見報業及雜誌業均認為需要立法立法已經是共識了呼籲速發部應該盡速的提出版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15827.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15845.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
我要跟部長特別分享本席作為本屆國民黨第一位提出媒體溢價法的一個委員我想大家都知道現在Google跟Meta兩個大型的數位平台長期無償使用這樣子的新聞媒體台灣新聞媒體的廣告收入幾乎是大幅的下滑 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15846.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15872.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
那連帶影響媒體從業人員以及他們的收入今天是五一勞動節我們看到兩間大型的數位科技平台掌握了超過半數的媒體新聞流量成為了台灣主要的新的新聞來源卻不曾來付費我想我講了這麼多我們先不談剛剛我所聽到部長有提的國外的一些案例國外的一些法規就單純你聽我這樣論述你覺得公平嗎 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15875.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15904.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
那個鮑偉這個確實是一個問題那確實也是需要解決問題只是說這個因為從我們現在因為我們訂一個方案必須要有效那只是說這個目前是看起來我們原來認為的方案但目前看起來其實對我們媒體擔心是反效果有擔心當然也有期待那剛剛你有提到澳洲這個部分的案例但是你也要找找看有沒有其他各國有沒有成功的案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15905.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15929.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
我們希望說在這個部分上 如果他沒有成功案例剛剛旁邊有人打pass說沒有成功案例但是沒關係我知道 我有看到了沒有成功案例 但是我要講的是在澳洲的部分有失敗的案例那可不可以將這失敗的案例我們來加以的去做一個調整成為台灣目前能夠有的新方案那成為一個成功模式 我們也可以變成全球首創 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15930.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15948.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
那我還是希望說 建請召委能夠則其的盡快逐條審查也拜託召委這麼的英明 今天所排審這樣子的一個題目那我想新聞有價是社會共識 社會期待剛剛也提到10月14日我們看到這樣子的這麼多媒體從業人員還有相關的 不管是平面雜誌 他們都發聲了新聞有價 應該禁訴立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15951.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15965.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
我想那難道這些聲音速發部不知道還是速發部就只是因為澳洲的案例所以現在不提版本是這樣嗎我們都知道你們有版本嗎我們剛剛講說我們有跟媒體溝通好我相信那你們有版本嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15971.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15994.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
跟委員報告我們都相信媒體有價但是解決這個問題有三種解決方案第一個是法律第二個是商業第三個是用科技那目前我們從這個加拿大或者是澳洲或者是歐盟的這個案例來看的話這些立法都沒有成功的案例事實上以那個加拿大來講的話他們通過他們的Online News Act以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15995.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16014.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
那個Meta就在加拿大把所有的那個媒體的新聞的連結通通移除掉移除掉退出嘛我都知道所以我想說你剛剛說的法律 商業 科技我們現在是著重在商業跟科技的方法我們來幫助這個媒體讓他收到如果你認為強制溢價是膽有 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16020.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16042.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
那我們這一部法令也不一定要叫做你所說的溢價法可以叫做說往這個科技商業的部分來做規範那我想叫什麼名字都不重要重要的是我們的台灣媒體從業人員因為獲利增加讓我們所有的從業人員福利跟權益增加這是我們現在在重視的 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16043.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16062.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
那現在現階段速發部的報告有提到審慎考量目前國際的局勢目前國際的局勢不排除引發美國採關稅報復的一個風險我想你提出這樣子的報告我們不能批評因為你把風險寫上去嘛但是我們可以探討這樣子的一個部分我想問 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16063.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16089.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
我們先提啊 速發部數位產業署副署長陳惠敏在2024年10月29日也曾經表示速發部非常贊成媒體溢價法的一個立法但幾個國家推動時也面臨了壓力國內若有共識速發部願意配合言猶在耳啊那當然今天所提到的美國關稅又是另外一個題目但是請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16091.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16109.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
現在台灣的媒體希望能夠有這樣子的議價法已經遭到美國關切了嗎還是你們只是單純評估風險因為我們還沒有立法所以現在美國還沒有表示他的態度但是從美國商會有表示態度但是也從目前澳洲跟加拿大被美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16110.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16126.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
這樣的一個反對我們也擔心台灣如果通過類似的法律一樣會得到美國的一些反對那現階段在關稅正在談判的一個時程當中我們都知道召委排了這一個題目那我覺得這是一個非常好談判關稅的一個談判條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16130.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16146.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
那你有沒有跟行政院甚至未來要準備已經在談判的過程當中把媒體溢價法也列入到我們跟美國談判的一個關鍵之一跟委員報告我們已經跟行政院的關稅談判的那個長官都已經報告過這件事情了 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16146.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16172.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
好 對 那所以嘛 既然有機會成為談判條件之一我還是建議啊 趙委實際上跟委員報告 我們不希望在這個時候因為這件事情變成這個關稅談判團隊的障礙你認為是障礙啦 但昨天我想我們昨天有看到牛許廷委員在講這個行政院對談的時候有講這個美國關稅在談判的過程快不一定好 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16174.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16196.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
擬定雙方的需要就競爭型的一個談判還是要做下來好好的談判我覺得這些項目都是談判的一個條件之一我覺得作為在野黨執政黨要去談判執政黨有所謂的包袱有所謂的壓力但在野黨我們也希望當執政黨的黑臉 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16197.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16216.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
讓執政黨在面對國際的壓力的時候也能夠把在野黨的聲音講出來作為執政黨談判的籌碼所以我還是建議趙偉這個應該還是要持續的推動我們走一步算一步成為我們現在中華民國談判的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16216.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16244.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
也能夠一方面為了媒體而發聲一方面我們也能夠適時的作為談判條件說不定說不定到時候美國所給予的這樣相關的一個條件可能更好但現在我們不是強硬的是一定要過而是我們一邊走一邊把這些媒體的聲音把從業人員的一些困難一一的把它給探討更希望在逐條討論的時候有行政院的版本但我想部長我想跟你請問你個人認為啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16247.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16257.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
我們的步驟啊就媒體議價而言一定是先自由議價再來指派調解人再來強制仲裁你覺得這三個步驟哪一個步驟會成為美國關稅報復最大的一個風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16264.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16287.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
他們關切哪一個部分這三個條件當中當然整個法我知道跟委員報告主要是強制溢價還有強制仲裁這個部分美國有非常大的意見強制仲裁是第三嘛所以我想旁邊我們的長官也非常的專業他在討論這個部分但是自由溢價我們可以先看到如果自由溢價有這個機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16289.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16315.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
那在議價法當中我們是可以再加強自由議價以及調解的部分強制仲裁是可能被最為關切的部分在逐條審查的時候我們要不要把強制的部分納入或者是逐步的納入或者是部分的納入這個都可以再討論所以我們還是要了解什麼樣的關鍵的法會讓美國比較關切那現在看到自由議價跟這個所謂的調解 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16318.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16338.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
這個部分是沒有疑慮的所以我若不透過法律的程序來立法那媒體有什麼力量去做數位平台的談判所以溢價的機制要如何來進行這是我們現階段應該著重在前面兩個階段為媒體來發聲所以台灣媒體的產業不像國外若過度的謹慎 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16339.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16365.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
我們目前現在的局勢恐怕會具媒體的產業更加的劇烈困境所以也會進一步的弱化整個媒體的相關風險所以立法才是著重於媒體的著作權的一個保障那我想請問一下勞動部是請問次長喔勞動部是否認同透過媒體議價法的立法能改善記者薪資跟勞動環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16369.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16385.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
我們勞動部對於任何能夠提高包括記得朋友在來勞工朋友的薪資福利勞動條件我們都支持至於這一個法因為我們都尊重速發部他們的主管權責勞動部自己沒有立場嗎在於強制溢價的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16387.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16413.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
因為議價這件事如果照團體協議法要有工會才能夠那我們台灣目前媒體新聞媒體業有成立工會的這個事業單位就我了解並不是多數所以可能我們要先鼓勵新聞媒體業他們的事業單位的勞工能夠成立工會你點出一個問題嘛那所以這部分不管最後議價法有沒有通過我覺得還是先鼓勵讓他們能夠成立嘛對不對加強這個部分的一個凝聚 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16413.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16431.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
我們勞動部一向都有一些鼓勵那個企業世界單位的勞工成立企業工會的一些補助跟協助輔導方案好那這個部分我們還是希望勞動部應該站在整個媒體從業人員的立場我相信媒體如果能夠多賺錢他一定會多分配資源那現在請問黃部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16433.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16456.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
台灣媒體溢價法的立法就數位平台而言Google有提出台灣新聞數位共融基金目前成效如何有辦法促進產業共融嗎有現在已經有40個Case然後一年一億現在第二年執行完畢所以你覺得有提升台灣新聞生態系的一個多元跟永續那個請那個署長可以署長請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16458.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16484.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
是 我們目前認為這個應該對媒體是很有幫助另外它Google也有另外一個專案就是北極星的專案它這個是請國外的顧問就Financial Times來教導國內的媒體如何做新聞地鏈的一個營運模式新的營運模式來 那這樣子台灣新聞產業長期受到數位廣告的營收外流等結構性的一個問題現在你說單一基金看起來有效但是整個單一基金可以解決根本問題嗎你覺得可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16486.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16504.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
請問委員指的是哪一種的基金是媒體強制溢價得到的基金還是政府那是Google出錢的基金我剛剛有講Google提出台灣新聞數位共榮基金你們說有效可是整個結構性的問題就單一個基金就可以解決嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16505.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16534.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
我們認為說另外一個北極星計畫可能更有幫助因為現在媒體的困境是失去訂閱的收入然後因為那個financial time他們在訂閱制做得非常好所以他就跟那個google合作然後經過我們那個速發部的促成他們現在在台灣幫各個新聞媒體做那個訂閱制的那個機制那這個費用都是由所以我要講的說單一基金不可能我們還是要需要多元的計畫去整個促進整個根本問題那Live Today呢有提出什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16535.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16559.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
有跟媒體要什麼合作方案嗎Light Today目前他們本來就已經在付費了Light Today本來就是在付錢給媒體好 他們現在就有在付費了所以還是有人願意做嘛所以我們要怎麼樣把這些商考模式都一一列出好好的去談成為我們這一次幫媒體發聲最主要的一個內容好不好 好 我們一起加油 謝謝謝謝樓庭偉委員現在請吳佩奕委員指請 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16570.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16579.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
謝謝主席我請速發部國科會速發部我們黃部長還有國科會的代表國科會有來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16583.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16602.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
這個新興資通組好謝謝部長今天是五一勞動節所以要先跟線上所有的媒體朋友說一聲辛苦了那從早上九點到現在大家都還在所以我盡量就是手持六分鐘之內來完成我的質詢那首先是呢我們今天討論的這一個法案我在速發部的報告裡面我第二頁看到你們說經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16603.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16625.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
學仁的雜誌指出加拿大原本要透過立法輔助新聞產業結果反而造成傷害另外強制議價權雖然利益良善但如果大型社群媒體平台等選擇停止提供新聞連結結果受到傷害的反而會是新聞媒體而其中又以中小型媒體受到衝擊會最為嚴重能不能就精簡的來簡單說明說以實務狀況你們為什麼會這樣判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16630.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16653.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
我們有做一些研究 那時候請次長來先報告這個是去年5月16號就是經濟學人雜誌他說的這個他說的這個狀況是在於說在加拿大通過Online News Act以後就是媒體強制溢價法以後呢結果Metha他選擇把那個 就是不玩了他把這個加拿大臉書上面所有的新聞連結都封鎖掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16654.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16675.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
所以這是我在加拿大我拜訪那個加拿大政府的時候他們給我看的那個一個截圖就是在加拿大我如果在臉書上我嘗試去看CNN或者是任何加拿大媒體的新聞我就是通通被封鎖掉了那因為它都已經封鎖掉了所以就是沒有辦法去議價從商業行為上來講的話Facebook它已經不提供任何的新聞連結 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16676.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16697.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
所以那個對於加拿大的那個各個那個新聞媒體來講其實狀況更糟因為他們連流量都沒有原來他們只是收不到錢他就連流量都沒有以後他的狀況就更糟糕了以上報告好那我看到我們2023年文化部有委託雜誌公會做一個數位平台對於出版業新聞媒體的影響一個調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16698.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16716.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
因為其實我們非常關注的也是台灣媒體出版業我們在這是全球性的一個衝擊之下我們要如何生存而且我們要繼續發展這個其中其實受到平台衝擊最大的是在廣告部分報紙的廣告減少八成雜誌減少六成其他像消費營收通通都有六成至三成這樣的減少的衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16718.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16722.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
所以我知道因為這個法案你們已經持續的來找我們媒體的業者以及平台業者已經進行好幾次我們跨部會的會議討論那我要特別提醒的是因為這個平台對於媒體業的衝擊對於大型的媒體跟中小型的媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16734.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16739.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
其實他這個因為多元的這個樣態他所造成的影響以及他的溢價能力談判的籌碼都是很不一樣的所以我希望你們這個討論要持續並且我們必須要多元的這個樣本要去了解說實務上他們現在最受到衝擊例如說小型的媒體他可能需要的比較不是廣告收入也許他是這個曝光流量等等那大型的媒體他需要廣告收入他才能夠有更長 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16762.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16770.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
起的這樣的發展也從而可以讓台灣的出版新聞製造業有更多的從業人員可以提供我們新聞不但的傳出所以我希望喔這個剛剛前面說來的這個羅廷文委員他是希望你們說走一步算一步但是因為我的意見不同尊重個別委員發言我認為不行啦我們公務部門必須要謹慎周全我認為我們要謹慎周全討論完備之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16786.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16811.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
才能跨出這一步否則像我們去年看到在立法院針對這個預算凍結刪除就是走一步算一步這樣子的心態結果呢後來才發現有一些預算是不該刪除不該凍結的才來現在要處理解凍所以我還是希望速發部務必跟其他跨部會謹慎周全然後對於我們台灣的媒體出版從業者要有多樣態的了解以後我們再來進行更充沛完備的研議因為我們目的是希望可以幫助他們幫助產業再來要了解的是除了對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16816.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16845.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
平台以外深層式的AI在台灣的發展這個其實也有牽涉到我們著作臨階權這樣子的問題那歐盟也有提出這樣子的27個國家的歐盟國家都已經完成相關的立法那其實台灣現在深層式AI發展也很快速我看了一下像美國有發生例如說這個有聯約時報在內的媒體向法院提告認為說有深層式AI的這個單位在沒有授權沒有付費的情況下使用他們的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16846.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16871.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
那麼現在OpenAI是已經跟美聯社法國世界報英國金融時報等業者都已經有簽訂協議了就是說你要使用它的內容的話你必須要取得合法的授權那在台灣我請國哥後來就是說我們政府也有AI我們的這個台德目前我們針對我們這個內容我們都是合法授權使用的嘛我之前有跟你們了解我目前是怎麼樣來取得這些合法授權的 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16872.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16890.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
報告委員在泰德跟各個不同的團體比如說像是新聞媒體洽談過程當中有不同的結果像是跟中央社是以有價的方式購得那ETtoday在上一個部分的話他們是以無償的方式跟我們談授權那下一波還會再進行不同的媒體的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16890.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16918.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
好這部分我覺得很重要因為我們公部門要先以身作則就是說我們使用這些資料應該都要去取得合法的授權那新聞有價從我們公部門先開始做起那我相信這個這個組長謝謝這個部長我相信也不會只有台的這一個這個模式所以我請你們我們有沒有針對過在台灣的AI未來廣泛去實驗這些資料的授權有沒有做過相關的研究報告我們有一個資料創新師專門在針對不管是從 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16920.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16925.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
那個條例或從那個一些的辦法那未來我們會怎麼樣來協助他們的授權呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16926.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16952.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
跟委員報告首先我們現在已經研擬一個台灣主權AI訓練語料授權條款就合理的使用這種重置行為那這個合理的使用這個部分呢我們這個授權條款就是會跟制裁局一起共同研擬那如果內容妥適之後呢我們就會對外公佈讓政府機關先行那再來就是產業之間也可以同意這個授權條款之後呢我們就可以大量的釋出這些高品質的一個語料好這很重要我希望我們要先來以身作則謝謝謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16956.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16976.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
謝謝吳沛逸委員執行接下來葉延芝委員執行主席好 麻煩請找蘇發部的部長蘇衛部黃部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16982.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
17009.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
部長好我想跟你談一下打炸因為你們最新四月應該是上個禮拜還是上上禮拜有宣報說說你們那個網炸通報查詢網重新上線現在要求就是大家可以一起來測試如果測試完之後沒有什麼問題你們就要正式上線那這個東西其實拖了蠻久的啦拖了蠻久的那當然我們是希望這個東西可以成功啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
17010.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
17025.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
那你們這個操作就是說如果有網友在網路上看到一個疑似詐騙的訊息就可以把這個網址貼到這個APP裡面然後可以看到說這東西是不是詐騙然後你們也會通報相關機關然後去做查詢然後確定它是詐騙或不是詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
17026.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
17050.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
那如果是公眾人物的話也可以通報給這個APP那如果發現有被詐騙的話你們會同步通知本人也會通知像FB、LINE、Google、IG等社群平台同步要求他們下架沒錯啦 這個是當初宣傳的內容那我們來檢視一下因為我也去測試了一下你們這個查詢網那我就發現有些問題啦下一頁嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
17052.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
17078.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
下一頁這個第一個譬如說像這個有人通報他叫酷炫老頭久轉功成非富即貴有人去通報那目前沒有辦法給正確答案只告知說是疑似詐騙訊息那我的助理實際上他就去測試了一下就是加入了這個LINE那就可以看得出來他這個他的頁面你進去之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
17079.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
17107.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
裡面的人管理員就會通知加入的人要加入另外一個LINE的群組那加入到另外一個LINE的群組呢那你就知道啦可能就是會進行一些投資的行為嘛就是很傳統的詐騙方式那我不知道說為什麼像這一種很明顯的詐騙的模式在網友通報之後到目前為止顯示的都是疑似沒有辦法給一個很確定的答案是為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
17107.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
17134.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
跟委員報告我們對於網路的詐騙我們是深惡痛絕我想這是我們全台灣所有人的共識但是台灣也是一個自由民主法治的國家那如果我們要通知一個社群媒體平台把一個訊息移除的話我們一定要有法源的依據那就如同剛才那個委員所顯示的畫面上當然一樣的資訊或者是說你加入他的群組要求你加入另外一個群組我們並不能判斷他是詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
17135.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
17163.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
那這件事情怎麼樣才能夠判斷這個要法源依據你設定了一個平台然後大家來使用然後你說說因為要很多困難沒辦法判斷那怎麼樣才能判斷我們這個機制就是說我們收到這個通報有像這樣的那個案件我們會不會交給內政部警政署所以接下來你們交給警政署去查是不是對 他們要做判斷要有法源依據那現在是他在查詢當中還是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
17164.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17177.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
因為這邊你們的進度4月29號11點鐘是說以通知速發部確認中那速發部這邊就是會通知警政署所以警察正在辦這個案子是不是要等到警政署確認這個是詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
17178.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
17199.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
才會回報到這個平台然後做出正確答案是這個還在流程當中嗎對因為這個東西他們後續到相關部會相關部會會針對相關的內容去做一些掐耳因為有些時候這到底是詐騙還是人家在分析服務社通常時間需要多久譬如說就以這個酷炫老頭的案例來講通常需要多久從4月29號查到這個個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
17201.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
17221.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
到你們通報警政署警政署查完回報給你們然後有一個明確答案通常需要多久我們大概大概原則大概在一天以內要盡量處理這些事一天可是從4月29今天5月1號已經超過一天了沒有因為有些東西他還是要去做一些確認基本上因為有些東西要判我剛剛問你說通常需要幾天嘛你說一天嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
17222.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
17236.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
然後所以現在我才告訴你說現在已經兩天了跟委員報告我們會依照這個案那個通報他的那個危險性他的風險性去做排序我們處理那個高風險因為我後面還有加個案這個案子麻煩你確認之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
17239.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
17265.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
回我辦公室一下就這個案子既然是委員問的話那我想了解說到底你們需要幾天還有他的流程到底是什麼這是第一個個案第二個個案也有人通報一個叫做今日爆牌台中那最後的結論是說本訊息缺乏足夠資訊便是詐騙與否那當然啦因為按照速發部的判斷詐騙應該是指說他爆牌給你然後最後把你錢騙光了這個叫做詐騙嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
17266.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
17282.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
那也許你還在查詢當中你沒辦法確認說他是不是詐騙可是這個很明顯就是違反其他的法律啊譬如說他可能就違反政交法通常你不能隨便在網路上跟人家爆牌對吧可以嗎 可以隨便在網路上跟人家爆牌嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
17283.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
17298.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
那個我們是在查詐騙這個違法我知道我知道我知道但是這個行為基本上是違法的嘛所以我現在就是跟部長請教你們假設有人通報了一個最後判斷說你判斷不是詐騙但是他有違法行為你們會把這個東西轉給相關機構去查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
17301.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
17318.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
就是遇到這個我們就會傳給那個就是金管會所以金管會如果金管會會去做後續的追蹤金管會會去後續那請教一下那金管會最後查的結果會不會再回報給你們然後你們會顯示在這個網頁上面還是說他就是一直說本訊息缺乏足夠資訊辨識詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
17321.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
17347.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
報告委員其實這部分來講這就是為什麼我們要必須後台交給相關部會第一個我們通知那個部會說有這個東西那他知道因為可能因為我們只處理詐騙的事情但是可能這個東西會涉及到其他相關的法規他知道之後他會依照他的權責去處理另外一個就是說我們在這裡面如果說不是詐騙我們也會秀出說這可能是高度風險有多了這樣的level來去警示我現在的建議是這樣子啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
17348.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17363.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
雖然說你們單位是打詐這個網站是打詐但實際上人家來舉報假設有不罰行為我覺得也是要告訴民眾所以你現在發文給金管會金管署如果確定說這是違法行為那最後回你們你們應該在右上角顯示一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17363.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17380.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
無法比如說你說缺乏足夠資訊便是詐騙與否但是明顯違反政交法請小心所以應該是這樣子嘛你今天花了幾千萬接近六千萬做了一個平台然後一副就是好像沒要沒勁的感覺剛剛委員報告委員的那個建議非常好我們往這個方向努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17380.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17397.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
但是也必須跟委員報告等一下你等一下一起報告啦好再來這個一樣日本澳田製藥株式會社這個療效真的超厲害的三天消除耳鳴十天就可以恢復聽力然後立刻就可以扔掉助聽器正常溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17398.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17417.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
這一看你不覺得很有問題嗎所以我們給衛福部去對然後但是因為你們秀出來的等一下你們秀出來的還是一樣本訊息缺乏足夠資訊辨識詐騙與否還是一樣那你們現在通知衛福部確認當中嘛然後最後你結案了結案就是本訊息經衛福部檢視人缺乏足夠資訊辨識詐騙與否 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17419.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17445.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
哇那人家看到之後這不是詐騙就去買啦但其實這個問題很大為什麼因為你真的相信他那麼厲害三十天以後耳鳴現象完全消失然後我去查了相關因為這個案子這個藥品呢他是在福建我們也去看了他的網站的位置是在福建那因為你現在你未服務並沒有做一個什麼廣告不實或違反醫藥法的裁定對不對可是我們看了之前的相關的別的藥的 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17446.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17472.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
別的要的這個一樣類似的東西他這邊就寫說涉嫌違規宣稱詞句七天消除耳鳴三十天恢復聽就跟剛剛那個一模一樣可以拔掉註定句這個東西已經被衛福部認為是違反食安法的第28條的規定涉嫌廣告違規所以同樣的樣態之前被罰過可是現在民眾在檢舉這件事情的時候你說本訊息缺乏訊我們缺乏資訊便是詐騙與否 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17474.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17493.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
那你不就是等於變相在幫這個東西背書嗎所以你應該叫衛福部查完之後假設他有違反了廣告樣態或是1號法的話你要秀出來啦你不是變相在幫這個違規的東西在背書啦等一下一起後面還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17495.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17514.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
很多啦像這個是有人在檢舉台積電慈善基金會的檢舉完之後已經確定是確定是詐騙人但是網站依然存在後面一樣的這個是晴雨航空說被詐騙然後就通知本人右邊是黃仁勳被詐騙通知本人就沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17514.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17532.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
沒有結論啊最後最後最後如果他回應的話我們會馬上會顯示那當然是因為黃仁勳他本身他非常忙所以他不見得他的幕僚會馬上回覆好那個比較delay抱歉剛剛的建議希望希望因為你們現在這個還測試中可是你花很多錢六千萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17533.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17553.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
你要做不好意思我還沒有問題你要做大家的窗口嘛人家覺得有疑問的就來問然後你就本位主義這個疑似詐騙會不能確定然後就沒了問完之後最後要給個答案他到底違反什麼法違反要釋法違反什麼告訴人家不要幫這些疑似詐騙背書然後最後我一個建議啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17555.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17571.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
之前我有在別的地方問過你們蘇巴布因為網路上有很多類似毒品的社團比如說這個伊托彌子這個就最近查到的那你們既然可以做一個平台讓人家去辨識說是不是詐騙那為什麼不能做一個平台讓人家檢舉這些毒品 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17572.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17596.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
為什麼不行呢毒品這個事情是大家深惡痛絕尤其是依托民脂現在造成社會很多問題很多人都是這個叫殭屍煙彈嘛很多吸了這個毒之後毒架很多員警因此這樣還因此這樣傷命那麼嚴重的事情蘇發部為什麼不能類似打詐做一個平台以後只要有看到毒品大家就可以來檢舉嘛幫大家減少那個毒品的問題嘛我們委員今天很好但是另外請委員支持我們的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17597.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17622.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
沒問題啊但是你要做事啊剛剛你花六千萬做這個網站做的問題那麼多然後一天到晚跟人家要錢要了錢之後然後執行率那麼差你要把你的本分做好嘛我們當然都是支持嘛對不對 剛剛我在問問題的時候其實我們是舉很多問題給你們讓你們來討論然後就會一直辯解一些不相關的東西我們願意支持預算但是請你們把這東西做好好不好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17624.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17626.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
好謝謝我們葉言之委員現在請游浩委員執行謝謝召委那有請部長還有NCC代理主委黃部長陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17657.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17685.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
好 部長主委好那個是剛才其實在有關於這個議價法的部分媒體議價法的部分其實大家討論的非常多那本席還是想要接著請教一下其實在行政院在110年整理了大型數位平台及新聞媒體共同發展小組三年僅開六次會那跨部會協調但是到最後這個整體的進度來講其實幾乎都是停擺那三年六次會啊其實幾乎都從上一屆跨到這一屆 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17686.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17703.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
那其實在目前來講的話媒體其實也非常重視這個一家法的一個進度那我是想要因為剛剛很多都問部長那我想問一下代理主委那像現在這樣子行政院的這個公共方案小組三零六次會那這個進度如何能夠有願望能夠產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17704.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17732.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
公園報告在行政院有列定說各個部會的分工NCC當時被分配到的任務是做產業調查我們產業調查結果在111年有完成後來數位部召集了三輪八場會議我們也有請衛星工會跟電視學會去參與跟他們共同對話這一部分都有持續在關注 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17733.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17744.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
那所以說目前來講NCC也是對於就是這個媒體議價法也是樂觀其成嗎是 我們是樂觀其成好 那請教部長那行政院版預計什麼時候能夠提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17745.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17774.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
就是包委員我們現在就是說現在有三種方法那我們現在就是因為三華都不是很完整不是在現在情況都有他的問題所以我們還在評估但是我們當然希望盡快那我們先等這一次這個有關於這個我們這個關稅的問題過了以後我們再跟再看國際的發展再跟各個單位來討論當然也希望能夠有一個共識之後我們提出行政院版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17774.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17801.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
但希望是盡快 但盡快可能就是就是今年下半期因為本席還是認為這麼重要的一個法案其實我相信不管是數位平台的使用業者包括媒體業者甚至百姓或是限販到限販到著作權的許多層面的人那非常的期待這個能夠早日來看到行政院版那國民黨的版本也有提出那像今天有提出的許多的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17801.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17823.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
那我就不論到底部長您支持哪個版本但是我覺得比較急迫的是應該是大家期待看到院的版本那如果說以像目前來講我們可以看到在澳洲的這個部分啊我們來講一下澳洲的例子他那時候其實政府的態度是非常堅定的因為包括在Google for Meta他一度揚言退出嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
17824.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
17842.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
但是那時候澳洲他其實還是採緊立場那所以到時候這個法案不僅是有通過而且順利實施那因為回頭來講其實政府的老闆還是國民那如果說傷害到大家權利的話其實政府一定要硬起來所以我相信國民也是會支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
17843.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
17864.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
那所以說今天來講在看到澳洲的例子那他們不管是在這個已經實施上路那我在想今天來講我們在速發部這邊那不管是他有提到如果說以澳洲的話是比較市場力模式或是歐盟的話是諸多權模式的話那其實討論到現在已經非常久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
17865.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
17889.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
那如果說是因為關稅的部分來講也差不多就是六七月談判都會有一個結果但是我相信研擬的過程其實都應該遭有雛形那所以說是不是其實已經有草案的版本跟委員報告其實這個事情的轉折並不是因為最近的這個關關稅的談判的問題而是在去年的五月那去年五月因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
17891.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
17913.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
加拿大在通過那個Online News Act那個媒體溢價法之後那個Meta決定說退出這個市場他把那個在加拿大臉書上面所有關於新聞的連結通通移除了那他既然已經移除了所以那個媒體溢價法就不適用於他結果呢那個加拿大的媒體本來就已經收不到錢了結果因為他現在在 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
17913.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
17936.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
在加拿大的臉書上面完全不能轉貼任何的新聞所以加拿大的新聞媒體又失去了他們的流量所以變成說他們的狀況非常不好所以才會說那個經濟學人雜誌在去年的五月出了那個兩篇的文章就講這個事情說加拿大政府推行媒體溢價法原本是要幫那個媒體結果反倒是傷害到了加拿大的媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
17937.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
17961.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
這個是這件事情事實上是整件事情的一個轉折在那之前的確我們在台灣我們的媒體我們很多公聽會我們好像都有一個那個共識我們要朝著那個媒體議價法的方向去就推行了可是因為發生這個事情所以我們會現在會覺得說會擔心說這個媒體議價法到底是不是有效那我們這個我們覺得說我們還必須要商榷好以上說明謝謝那志展 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
17962.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
17985.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
本期還是在這邊還是再次說明當然說今天你舉的這個例子啊會讓大家是我就是會感到擔心要不要往前進行啊但是事實上的話以澳洲那時候其實他們也曾經面對這樣的風險那但是他們還是踩緊立場因為是站在人民的角度跟媒體的角度所以本期還是認為說今天推動的情況如何草案其實還是要有而且草案其實要提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
17986.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
18011.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
那我相信這個是不斷的跟他們去做一個談判或協商的過程但是至少來講我覺得該有一個版本讓社會大眾都能夠清楚而且能夠來進行討論我相信這會是在不管是抒發部或是行政院或是最務實的可以讓民眾看得到的做法我們持續會跟委員溝通然後跟社會大眾做溝通然後找出一個最有效的方法來推動這樣的一個事情好 OK 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
18013.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
18018.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
謝謝游浩委員現在請林柱英委員執行謝謝主席主席有請數位部部長好 數位部黃部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
18037.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
18063.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
次長如果 林次長如果有需要補充也可以一起上台沒問題林次長部長好我想本席是在上一屆2020年擔任立委之後就提出了有關於媒體一家法我想當時的緣由您在報告上面也寫得非常清楚就是2021年澳洲再加上2023年開始就是有關於大型的平台在使用新聞上面的這個所謂使用者付費的部分但是我們知道時間來到2025年 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
18065.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
18082.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
很多的狀況都已經跟我們現實當時所提出來的法案已經完全不一樣包括現在AI成為這個網路世界尤其是AI生成當中我相信它已經所延伸的問題恐怕更甚於媒體溢價法那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
18082.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
18097.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
我想要請問的就是其實隨著時間的演進包括今天主席我相信他們也都是非常關注今天的題目那麼到底我們跟實際的媒體業者進行了哪些溝通因為就像報告所提出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
18097.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
18123.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
就是現在不論是澳洲或者是其他國家因為在使用媒體溢價法之後也被這個所謂大型的平台不論是Meta或者是Google進行了所謂的報復也就是說他們乾脆直接就是下價或者是不導流那我相信媒體跟溢所謂平台之間是一種共生共好的關係那是最好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
18123.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
18153.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
那麼在台灣的話台灣的媒體目前對於類似媒體議價法或者是真的有一個所謂的平台來協助議價他們最新的想法跟看法又是什麼呢當然我相信現場也有文化部也有所謂的這個國科會等等但是現在主責是數位部的話我就來請問一下到底在近期內跟媒體之間的溝通有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
18153.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
18177.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
那麼媒體他們認為現在需要的真的還是溢價法嗎還是更先進的就是剛剛有我們本院的委員所提到的著作連結權相關的法案又或者是說他必須併到另外更廣更大的AI相關的基本法等等因為我要因為我時間有限所以我最後再請 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
18178.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
18198.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
科技部來回應就是目前其實最有可數位部來回應就是其實目前對媒體來說他們所面對的一個實質的狀況就是當我們使用AI你把幾篇新聞輸入進去之後只要30秒它生成另外一篇根本 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
18199.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
18217.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
完全不一樣的文章平台根本完全已經不需要去透過連結link的方式去使用這些媒體言下之意我們當然原本利益良善的是希望創建一個平台協助業者跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
18218.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
18240.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
社群平台來做溝通但現在產生第三者也就是ChatGP之類的AI的時候那這變成是一個三方的問題請問數位部有考量到嗎那麼有更先進的法規或法律在做研擬嗎否則等到又一樣過了五年之後我們的立法又落後了 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
18241.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
18255.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
部長那個委員分析的很好確實確實新的技術出現改變我們當初對媒體溢價法的看法那我從上任之後有公協會來找我也有學者跟他們來找我就對這個議題表示不同看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
18256.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
18276.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
那當然就是說在討論過程中當然大部分人當初還是主張認為還是用媒體強迫溢價法那我們也朝著後面去做很多的研究那也去觀察國際的發展的趨勢才會有今天的這樣的一個態度就是說我們發現媒體強迫溢價法在有些國家實施之後並沒有達到當初想要實行的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
18277.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
18295.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
那當然這個著作臨接權是一種因為因為應付AI的產生是一個方法但是那牽涉到更複雜的這個所謂修法跟那個所以我們當然是希望能夠整合像剛剛講著作臨接權就著作權法的的那個修法然後再加上也許一些基金共融但這個還需要再討論但是這個還需要跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
18297.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
18311.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
大院還有跟一般的所謂的民眾來這個業者來溝通當然也要跟這個平台業者來溝通希望找出一個大家能夠同意然後能夠共榮的一個方案讓這個事情能夠所謂新聞有家這事情能夠落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
18312.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
18337.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
這是我們現在的一個在在在評估但我們但是希望盡快了所以但因為現在是稍微受到這個剛講這個關稅的影響我們覺得這個時間點去提出任何東西可能會影響到關稅的談判但是只要這個結束以後我們會再看再跟再看用什麼樣方式來提出最有效對我們新聞媒體最有效方法來解決我們現在所謂新聞有價的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
18338.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
18361.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
好 所以本席要提醒的就是我們立的法絕對要走在前面如果說現在也沒提議價法我實話實說我自己沒提出來的它現在已經落後了所以在這樣的概念裡面要把新的狀況也要放進去這樣才不要說立一個法擺在那裡大家浪費了時間但是其實它可能法規根本用不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
18361.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
18383.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
那這個才是沒有辦法解決問題而不符合現在實際所應應的狀況但是本席還是同意就是必須要在一定的時間之內而且必須要回應媒體的需求然後也要能夠結合現在我們整體的不論是網路又或者是整個時代的潮流好 謝謝委員建議 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
18385.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
18400.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
謝謝林楚英委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在王美惠 王美惠 王美惠委員不在吳思瑤 吳思瑤 吳思瑤委員不在習新穎 習新穎 習新穎委員不在現在請蔡依瑜委員執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
18418.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
18445.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
謝謝主席 那我們是有請抒發部部長好 抒發部黃部長好 部長最近基隆有爆發一個濫用個資而且是由政府機關濫用個資政府民政處處長竟然可以在自己調用個人的戶政資料然後來協助罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
18447.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
18467.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
那當然這個涉及到了很多層次的問題內政部這個各自的一個互證資料怎麼會被這樣調用但是我還有想到一個問題就是說我們個人的資訊如果被查詢那我們個人有辦法知道嗎這件事情就是說政府的資訊公開有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
18468.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
18493.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
在我們速發部的一個整理之下哪些訊息可以適度的讓個人知道這件事情我想請教部長你覺得技術上我們來研發讓個人可以知道我的資訊被公開比方說我被戶政系統查詢了一個月後至少給我知道我被查詢了幾次誰查詢我我倒還其次喔我被查詢了幾次這件事情我就公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
18494.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
18519.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
查詢這個系統在查詢應該都有所謂的log現在只是說這個log要不要我想是這樣就是說這個東西的管理現在有個個資會然後就有要個資會是在行政院的層級的個人資料委員會但是個資會他都在管理的層次我現在是講說我在個人上我想要知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
18520.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
18549.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
我的個人資料被查詢了被查詢了幾次我覺得樹化部你可以去思考因為我知道我們樹化部最近做了蠻多比方說我們的簡訊111簡訊嘛那可以讓人民清楚的知道說這個是政府簡訊是官方的簡訊並不是來自於說其他一些莫名其妙的簡訊這樹化部有做這樣的事情那我從這一次基隆的事件中事實上很多人去告訴我說外戶證資料或者是我的健保資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
18550.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
18559.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
他人查詢了好查詢我的目的有很多有可能基於犯罪有可能基於一些國安但是像這樣子一個違法查詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
18562.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
18582.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
對那個包括委員就是我們蘇阿波可以協助各支會訂定一個統一的機制你剛剛講說技術上都可行技術上是對就是我們需要一個機制去做這個的分析跟調查然後能夠做通報那這個我們會跟各支會來一起討論就是說看怎麼樣去進行這樣的一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
18584.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
18597.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
至少個人資料我可以了解一下最近好像有人很平於去查詢我甚至說健保資料之外還有一個我們的信用徵信資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
18598.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
18619.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
信用徵信資料 那現在的信用徵信我想跟部長說啦 事實上也是不方便的我們現在要查詢自己的聯合徵信我們得寄信到聯合徵信中心然後可能要等他作業都超過一個禮拜的時間他才會寄給你說你的徵信的一個狀況事實上以現在我想整個科技然後整個數位發展的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
18620.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
18647.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
我應該是不是這部分也應該來督促說像這樣的聯合徵信中心你應該要可以用線上查詢然後我可以線上就可以馬上得到我自己個人的一個徵信資料那我知道我的徵信資料我要去銀行辦貸款還是怎樣當然是相對會比較方便我覺得數劃部這部分是不是也可以來做一個我想我們會跟各自委員會來討論這個事情要訂一個統一的機制讓很多資料個人資料能夠個人管理然後能夠被通報這樣好 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
18648.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
18668.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
就是說因為我覺得基隆這個事情來說我覺得侵害個人權利啦所以個人應該對於我自己資料使用取得甚至有他人刺探我的資料這件事情我個人應該要有權利要知道部分的一個狀況好不好我們會跟各自委員會來聊好那就請部長再研究好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
18670.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
18690.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
好 謝謝蔡育儀委員翁曉琳 翁曉琳 翁曉琳委員不在鄭振前 鄭振前 鄭振前委員不在王航威 王航威 王航威委員不在蘇清前 蘇清前 蘇清前委員不在好 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
18694.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
18719.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
好 登記執行委員經已發言完畢 作以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員張雅玲 萬美玲 柯智恩 黃建豪 劉書斌 翁曉琳 林國成首提書面執行列入記錄 並刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
18719.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
18732.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
委員以執行中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請數位部及相關機關儘速以書面答醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
18734.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
18753.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
針對本提案立法行政產業界等立法銜接的問題為求完善本席則其召開公聽會起最大立法制共識行之本日會議以下結議討論四項個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
18757.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
18766.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
今令定期繼續細查本日會議結束上會謝謝大家 |