| IVOD_ID |
166363 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166363 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-11T11:21:19+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-11T11:36:17+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:58 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/83ea75f4c686a7b14e984c04c531e433feb4e86bf6119d126cb862312e5c4d1f232082a5edcaf1125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鍾佳濱 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:21:19 - 11:36:17 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-11T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請法務部、審計部、行政院主計總處等就「八百萬助理費變成小金庫，立法院組織法恐成自肥法案？」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、審查委員許智傑等23人擬具「立法院公費助理任用法草案」案。） |
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主席 財長委員先進列席的政務機關署長 官員會長工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生我們首先還是要邀請包括法務部的洪司長然後我們主計總署的陳副主計長 |
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副主席長我們立法院的張副秘書長張副秘以及法治局的郭局長郭局長好 首先我先請教一下張副秘書長過去你曾經在立法院擔任過秘書長以外的職務嗎法治局法治局很好那麼你擔任過未來有可能當秘書長所以要了解一下秘書長的工作我請教一下秘書長有要參與到朝野協商議程的制定嗎 |
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72.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
或者你需不需要參與 就你所知有沒有就我所知的話 如果院長認為他需要參加應該就必須要參加所以今天兩件事情我們的秘書長說今天院長九點排朝野協商討論的議題都涉及到司法法治委員會跟教育委員會明知這兩個委員會今天有會議但是他說他個人沒有參與到這些議題的責定 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
73.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
96.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
所以他不曉得這不是議程不是他排的九點開會要討論那些議題跟我們兩個會衝堂不是他的原因你認可這樣的談話嗎我無權發表對你無權發表好但是你也提到了如果秘書長如果院長要他去參與抄寫商他就要去對不對那本委員會審到立法院的法案有沒有義務要來這邊列席備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
99.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
120.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
醫法應該是要不過因為主席已經准假了所以我這邊就不再追究了我要說明的是我們一個媽保秘書長為了不敢來這裡備詢還特別讓我們院長排朝野協商故意跟這裡衝堂小朋友不想上學又怕被寄礦客拜託爸爸媽媽給他出一張去醫院的請假單實在是丟臉了好 開始來問 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
125.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
138.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我們辛苦一下捍衛助理權益我們立委絕不出席我想這個大家就清楚看到了在下一張我們來看補助私房錢的話我先來請教一下副主計長陳副主計長主計長補助款在我們的政府預算科目他需不需要檢據核銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
146.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
167.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
就是依照我們會計法的規定就是我們還是必須要有原始憑證對所以如果要免除檢據平銷檢據核銷一定要定在法律把它豁免掉對不對如果沒有頂這一條補助費如果一般要要我們來邊預算邊要補助款是不是都會要求要檢據核銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
168.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
190.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
就是說會要求檢據原始憑證這個據就是說這個簡單講啦如果法律沒有寫免檢據核銷假如法律沒有寫特別標註不用檢據核銷的話你們主計的作業補助款會不會要求要提供原始憑證我們不論只要公款都要原始憑證很好 謝謝 來 副審計長對不起 請副審計長上來李副審計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
195.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
218.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
請問一下如果今天政府預算編的是補助款等到你們審計的時候你們發現他沒有附原始憑證你們會准嗎都是要附原始憑證如果沒有附的話只是那個包委員就是如果主委總署最對特別的個別的科目他有時候可以簡化那個原始憑證簡化但是還有所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
219.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
235.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
特別在法律裡面排除一般補助款必須要付原始憑證以便我們的主計跟審計作業把它排除就是想做壞事啦簡單講是這樣子啦如果沒有打算做壞事何必排除我們法律的一般適用呢好 謝謝兩位來 我們來看一下我們來問法治局局長上一頁上一頁下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
244.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
264.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這裡面修正條文說本來立法委員的公費助理是8到14人改為若干人請問若干人是幾人若干人是幾個人我是問你嘛 若干人幾個人若干嘛 一般實務上一個算不算若干人一個算不算若干人 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
265.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
293.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
他还是包括在若干人好 一个包括在若干人100个包括在若干人当中100个有没有包括在若干人当中法理文字 你是法治局局长啊包括嘛 对不对大声的说有没有包括100个到100个都是一个到100个都是若干人嘛他是一个抽象的法律概念对 一个抽象法律概念一个到100个都是所以这样的修法立法委员可以拼多少他可以拼100个助理啊200个助理啊若干人嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
294.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
314.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
可是這個助理是不是便當助理 是不是要他支付費用 沒有寫啊沒有寫耶 他責治助理多少人然後呢 有委員聘用 要不要付錢 也沒寫然後呢 原條文是寫說 治公費助理8到14人很清楚這些助理是領誰的錢 公費助理領誰的錢是不是領你的錢 是領國家的錢對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
318.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
341.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
是領國家的錢 立法院的預算對不對現在你們這樣改成助理若干人這個助理由委員聘用需不需要領公立法院的預算這個不是我們改的啦我不是問你嘛 我說改了之後會怎麼樣嘛這個公會助理要問人事處不是啦 你是法治局嘛 如果條文這樣寫助理若干人由委員聘用他的薪水會不會是立法院付 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
343.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
364.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
會不會是立法院務有嗎 有寫嗎他是補助各委員立法院預算編給委員假如說沒有公費助理了要新的修正條文寫委員聘用助理沒有寫是公費那立委這些助理跟誰領錢沒有規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
366.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
394.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
立法院編的預算是給誰 給委員 寫得明明白白嘛所以這些人員到底是親朋好友 黑道還是境外勢力他有沒有遵守勞基法 你們也管不到 對不對 聘用助理你們現在的公費助理 立法院是不是雇主針對委員聘哪些助理 我們目前當然也沒辦法管啦不是 他 聘用權在他啦 你們報上來 有沒有有沒有個資 有沒有身份證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
395.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
414.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
有沒有勞健保你們不審核你們有沒有這個資料我現在沒有問你人事資料是你問的啦我沒有問你這個啦我是問你說若干人委員聘用立法院要付錢條文這樣寫你是法治局局長啊知不知道我是問你法治局的問題啊下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
416.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
445.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
來我們看一下補助四方化就是這樣子免減拒核銷而且不限助理費用請問一下法治條文這樣寫不限助理費用立法院補助給委員聘助理的費用統籌運用他寫不限於耶不限於是不是可以用在別的地方可不可以用來養小三可不可以用來買豪車法律條文這樣寫法治局可不可以這樣做有沒有規定不可以講不出來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
448.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
471.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以往下看所以原來我們的公費助理有一個任用法的草案他說 遴選資訊介入訓練規定都要寫 要自公費助理名冊我先問 來 人事處黃處長目前公費助理有沒有名冊有沒有名冊在你那裡有啊 那委員送過來了非公費助理有沒有名冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
473.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
501.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
沒有名冊 之前陳玉珍說找了一個人跑來我們立法院我們說這個是媒體啊他有沒有記者證 一查他好像登記媒體喔可是他又出在現媒體部應該出現的地方陳玉珍說那是他聘的助理你知道這件事情嗎媒體上有看過好 那你知道那個人是不是陳玉珍的助理我們那邊的資料沒有你們的資料沒有 對好 請回我們 來 所以來 郭局長再請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
504.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
526.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以今天你認為公費助理任用法草案是否比較有效的可以建立助理的制度你認為有沒有比較有效我們都尊重委員的我問你嘛 你法治局是不是訂一個專法內容可以再修改 可以再精進訂一個專法有沒有對公費助理的制度比較有一個法律的保障基本上要從 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
528.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
548.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
立法院組織法來改還是我沒有問你立法院組織法我只問說為了公衛助理的制度化我們訂一個任用專法你知不支持你知不支持我都尊重委員的提案我先問你局長嘛你是法治局嘛你知不支持我們公衛助理制度化你認為一個任用專法比較有保障你認不認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
550.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
574.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
不然我要說你不認同喔基本上我都尊重我們各個委員的提案一直跳針要保障公衛制度你法治局長如果敢說訂專法沒有幫助你講講看有沒有幫助我們尊重委員的提案你看一直跳針尊重委員你哪一個案子不是尊重委員提案法治局的報告是不是你提的法治局這個什麼報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
574.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
594.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好 那不管了 往下好 所以告訴你們 來那個我們法制司司長根據憲法499如果目前的修改立法院組織法讓委員可以增加可支配的統籌運用的費用這算不算對委員本身的權益是增加的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
596.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
609.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我不是 我先問你 我剛剛講的話如果修了組織法讓立法委員統籌運用的經費多了七八百萬這樣的法案的修法的實質結果是不是造成委員本身的權益的增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
611.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
637.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們應該是從法條跟他的修法理由來觀看那如同我們法務部的書面報告中針對這部分有做說明法條雖然只寫補助但是他在修法理由中有寫成實質薪資的一部分那針對這個部分的話我們也有提及就是應該要參酌司法院44499號解釋文的意旨做這方面的一個迴避的一個規定這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
638.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
651.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
好 迴避是說如果通過了也是下屆試用嘛是的 好是不是下屆試用好 來法治師是這樣說下屆試用好那他這個修法呢不是只是自肥啊他還要脫罪啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
652.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
669.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
是不是 他還想要脫罪嘛請問一下目前紀署法院審理或偵辦中如果之前因為原來的立法院組織法立委涉及侵占助理的薪資被現在調查起訴或審理中的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
670.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
681.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
立法院組織法做了這樣修改之後是不是他們之前修法前所為的這些侵占助理費的罪行就可以因此而免除追究有沒有這個效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
682.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
698.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
委員所詢問的主要應該是針對刑法第二條跟貪污自罪條例不是貪污自罪條例而是刑法第二條有關於行為後法律有變動那是不是可以從有利於行為人的解釋有沒有產生那個效果結論很簡單來講是沒有沒有 好因為這個不是貪污自罪條例構成要求的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
704.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
719.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這樣的行為就算是修法後被認為不是去侵占就是說這個行為已經是他實質心智一部分了但是修法後的法是往後生效不會去改變他當時所行為時候的行為性質 是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
720.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
745.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就我剛才講刑法第二條的行為後法律有變動那個法律在目前實務見解最高法院見解是認為現行法法律也就是構成要件的那這個組織法的修改改變了助理會成為立委的實質薪酬會不會改變他們之前基於貪污的目的意圖去侵占立委的薪資這樣的行為可以免除後來刑法或者說貪污治罪條例的追訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
747.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
769.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
簡單的講就是說貪污治罪條例的構成要件並沒有改變那即便立法院組織法有變更了以後那是一個構成要件前提事實的變更這不會適用到刑法第二條也不會產生剛剛講的那個改變的效果好 謝謝今天我們可以做結論了 往下看所以啊不管是處心積慮的要擺脫我們審計主計的規範想要免檢據核銷就是想要污錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
775.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
803.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
而且呢還在立法說明說這是實質薪資的一部分而且呢也造成了立法委員僱用的助理不受到立法院的監督包括他的身份資格的查核最後我們看一下所以請法治局針對助理費統籌運用是否違憲提出法規應驗書法治局局長郭局長你可以做嗎你是法治局喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
804.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
811.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們寫要求助理費統籌運用 有無違憲就是違反499 你們提出個法律見解 可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
812.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
835.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我們已經看到法務部的意見了 我想看你的意見更委員 報告我們只能做法案評估啦好 那請評估那請將法務部所說的有抵觸限4-499這樣的一個可能要下屆才能適用既然下屆適用 它當然我們很清楚 它要挪威適用它也沒有辦法擺脫貪污自治條例的追溯那這個部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
836.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
851.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個部分 不要再為難你了來 法治司法 法治司司長針對這個部分可不可以把你們剛剛的意見更完整的表達一下因為你們今天的書面報告沒有寫到這一點可以請你們補一個報告嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
855.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
875.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
不曉得委員是真我們書面報告中是有講到就是參酌499號我不是講499 我講第二項就是說與貪污自罪條例的關係挪威私用目前我們就算組織法改了之前已經 我就剛剛問你的問題嘛之前已經因涉犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
876.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
897.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
利用職務上之機會榨取財務這些被貪污自罪條例跟來起訴的這些前立委是不是會因為本法的修改後就免於追訴 請表達意見 可以嗎針對剛剛委員所講的就我剛才有講就是不會改變目前曾審訊請把你剛剛的意見用書面的方式提供好 謝謝 謝謝主席 |