| IVOD_ID |
166340 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166340 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-10T11:45:03+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-10T12:02:37+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:34 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c07e019af7e418ebc1ff56a78bd28eb122b77af859ec2087e6ef00c3ddfecfa1d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
劉建國 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:45:03 - 12:02:37 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部及教育部就「身心障礙者特教融合、就業服務及自立生活現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
(討論事項)
一、繼續審查
(一) 委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人及委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(二) 委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。
(三) 委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。
(四) 委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。
(五) 委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。
(六) 委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
(七) 委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。
(八) 委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。
(九) 委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。
(十) 委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。
(十一) 委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。
(十二) 委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。
(十三) 委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。
(十四) 委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
(十五) 委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
(十六) 委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
(十七) 委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
二、審查
(一) 委員林月琴等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(二) 委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(三) 委員王育敏等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
【第二(四)案，如經復議，則不予審查】
【專題報告及討論事項，綜合詢答】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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好 謝謝主席請部長 有請石部長劉委員好部長好 這個是 今天是我們委員會 衛生委員會第二次的針對身心障礙者權利保障法的懸打那主要原因是因為 憲政院的版本到現在還沒有送進立法院我想大家都 剛剛都有提過 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
24.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
44.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
那我要開場白之前我還是要期許啦 其實史部長就我的認知裡面你是應該對健保的整個制度是是非常清楚然後也讓健保可以穩定的和這個合理的這樣做這個需求者的給付的捍衛者然後再來也是一個最挺醫事團體醫護人力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
47.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
54.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
最好的一個部長那當然我更希望你是一個最照顧新興障礙者夥伴們的最好的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
56.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
79.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
所以今天要來大修這個生權法這個歷史背景我還是希望部長可以多加以琢磨這69年訂定的殘障福利法然後一直到了這個1997年的時候 86年我們修正為身心障礙者保護法96年又再修正為身心障礙者權利保障法這整個過程是這樣然後到了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
82.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
102.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
2011年也就是立法院第七屆我跟陳潔篤委員是大修了申請法而且我們是沒有利用委員會的時間自己在同一個時間出來從下午2點一直討論到這個晚上10點在隔壁802的會議室然後把相關的部會通通找來 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
103.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
128.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
大幅的修正然後修正完之後那個時候將近有31個條文通通做調整幾個面向就是對身障者的社會參與還有工作培訓然後就醫的權利交通運輸以及自力生活等進行這個修法的強化那在這個過程裡面我一直期待這樣的修法是會給身心障礙者權利身心障礙者的對象的這些夥伴 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
129.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
147.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
都可以因為這個整部法條的大幅的修正之後相對的所有的面向都可以往上提升不過現在要讓部長來看這樣的一個相關的一些數據你就知道現今這些身心障礙者的夥伴遇到什麼樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
151.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
172.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
已經有45年的歷史的一個生圈法然後剛剛已經有應該是林委員有特別提出來嘛對不對一個建造農人帶部車用餐要加收2000元這是一家高級餐廳你內容我就不再贅述了這在一個先進的國家怎麼會遇到這種事情這起義然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
173.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
186.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
只是因為多一個電動代步車多一個位置就必須要在原本三個人變成要跟他收取四人的定金跟低效的費用這是那我覺得這比較這個應該該用什麼形容詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
192.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
212.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我想一下等一下再跟你講然後你再看一下我們身心障礙者權利保障法第11條的規定各級政府至少每5年要辦理一次調查收集我國身心障礙者之生活狀況保健醫療特殊教育就業與訓練然後交通及福利等需求評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
213.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
233.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我要請教部長 我們有各級政府 先從中央講 中央有嗎五年檢討一次 評估 調查那全國22個縣市有照這樣做嗎那如果沒有照這樣做 那違反生權法第幾條各級政府應該受到什麼樣的懲罰 有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
236.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
263.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
可以簡單答我這個是沒有罰則啦沒有罰則那這個我們上一次是110年的時候我們有這個報告所以現在應該在進行下一期就明年就是五年到了嘛又要再做一次的調查相關的一些檢討跟評估嘛對不對但中央有照這樣做我還是要請教部長22個縣市有照這樣做嗎都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
265.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
275.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
如實都有照這樣做我們同仁說有啦都有記錄如果沒有照這樣做有什麼處理的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
277.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
295.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
當然這個目前在這個本法裡面是沒有這個對應法則啦不過我想這個好 我就提醒部長嘛就是沒有對應的法則那是不是在這次修法中行政院的版本應該要把它納入好不好會來提醒各縣 不能做提醒這法律規範的條文裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
298.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
315.408 |
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不是只有做提醒的功能它不只已經入法了那如果各縣市沒有照這樣去做五年的一次的檢討跟相關調查評估那應該在我們申請委員裡面就必須要把它入法看如果規範 看如果處理 應該可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
316.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
330.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們研究看看啦 不能跟我講說研究看看你連調查的項目也應該要統一啦你這五年各縣市調查的項目有統一嗎 有一致性嗎我的理解沒有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
331.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
349.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
對嘛 這不是很奇怪所以就是有城鄉的落差就是有像現在台北市遇到這麼多的狀況我等一下還有個案例剛剛那個案例也是在台北市那個高級餐廳在台北市在台北市可以遇到這樣的狀況你在一般縣市遇到這種狀況可能會更加嚴峻 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
352.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
378.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
再請部長看一下這是我調出的生意障礙者最近的這近一年的公共運輸使用情形105年你們的調報告有包含這一塊嗎公車它原本是30.25捷運22.39我就不再贅述了啦105對照一年通通平均下降通通平均下降這個表格很清楚嘛 部長可以看清楚然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
379.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
397.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
生意障礙者在使用大眾運輸的情況之下是全面性的降低然後零最公認應該是最便捷無障礙設計最完善的捷運系統這五年間都還掉了1.32%那你可以跟我講說因為疫情啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
398.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
423.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
是啊 你可以跟我這麼講啦我知道你一定會這麼講那我們就要看 後疫情的時候他是降還是跌 他還是升嘛 對不對請把那個書記調查清楚之後我們再來說嘛 好不好 可不可以不過這五年確實是如此嘛這是一件事情嘛然後再來我還另外一個悲觀公車不友善請部長再看這個報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
425.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
451.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
身心障礙者招司機賀賜 硬推輪椅這是議員的質詢 然後負申訴比例近七成在哪裡 又在台北市 首善之都餐廳是遇到這種狀況 然後公車又遇到這種狀況台北就發生這種事情了 國際之都欸那你你狂論其他的五都 狂論一般的縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
453.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
481.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
又會對身心障礙者他們會遭受到什麼樣的這樣的一個對待我一直強調說打造一個無障礙者空間這真的不是只有在保障身心障礙者我們每一個人都沒有辦法保證自己不會雄雄意外雄雄中風雄雄需要使用到無障礙空間嘛對不對當你歧視身心障礙者的朋友的時候當你對這個無障礙空間用不一樣的思維在面對的時候坦白講他的心理是不正常的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
482.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
510.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
他的心理是非常非常的不正常他是在歧視他自己啦他也有可能歧視他未來的親友可能會遭遇到種種的狀況所以今天要大修生權法我覺得不應該緩慢啦不應該再照理講更應該積極去面對剛剛陳副部長所回應很多委員台灣已經邁入超高齡的社會嘛這個緩慢會不會造成一個障礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
511.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
539.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
在行走的過程裡面 在搭車的過程裡面在上下這個公共空間的樓梯裡面他都會緩慢嘛 對不對那是不是屬於也是障礙的一種那怎麼會在台北車站還要有勞不能朝野的委員去跟我們深藏朋友去檢視這樣的一個國際的首都的車站還有這麼不友善的空間不友善的動線 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
541.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
563.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所以當你看69年修了這個殘障保護法然後再改一個證明到現在然後在我們第七屆又大幅修正的情況之下你就做這樣來檢視你們的五年的檢討調查說一句比較粗魯的你們那種檢討調查所有項目全部通通是障礙的官方就障礙了 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
567.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
591.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
中央跟地方整個調查項目就不統一了就已經有障礙了你如何保障我們全國的身心障礙者這些夥伴這些朋友連修法提出來都必須要排兩次的隨意選的時候你們到現在還沒出來行政院 衛福部對不起我不客氣講你們也是在障礙啊思維障礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
596.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
619.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
心理障礙 修法障礙全部都障礙所以台灣的身心障礙者朋友怎麼會有一個友善的保護保障提高他們相對安全的一個環境你再看為什麼在這個自立生活裡面會搞得如此 如此的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
622.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
641.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
讓人家覺得中央地方不同調認定標準不一不只如此剛剛部長有一句形容詞特別強調說不管是助理不管是長照怎樣的合併使用基本上都不排斥對不對但是這些夥伴們提出申請的時候不管在中央不管在地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
643.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
671.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
你們不排斥 但是他們就覺得很多次啊知道什麼狀況 部長可以看一下 僵化的自立生活服務選擇前被剝奪 隱私與尊嚴被侵犯然後僵化的規則 將得於三日前提出申請強制解讀應於三日前申請然後突發狀況常被以沒有計畫書 計畫書上沒有寫然後唯有來駁回 然後時數被切割無法互相挪用 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
672.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
688.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
且對於協助的定義是狹隘的委員會要變更議程都可以兩天前他們一定要三天前而且是因喔所以因三更前要知道他可能會感冒他可能會發燒他可能會跌倒 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
696.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
709.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
怎麼會有一個對生意障礙者權利保障法的一個法律已經大幅修正完之後然後我們希望他們可以走出來他們在走出來的過程裡面不管是就業不管是社區的參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
709.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
720.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
他都可以更加的這樣的自然安全然後政府可以更對他們多加以琢磨的這樣的去做鼓勵然後我們僵化到德變成英 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
727.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
753.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
所以就說他沒泡杯都要以後好三天後他開始是安裝他是感冒了他是怎麼樣怎麼樣怎樣有這樣的生權法然後生權法的法律修正是這樣讓行政機關降化到不行然後選擇權被剝奪使用者被禁止選擇或被強迫更換助理禁止與助理私下協調時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
756.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
782.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這個真的是官僚程序淩駕於真正的需求之上嘛隱私血及尊嚴被侵犯單位任意拍照過度索取據悉名義的個人行程資訊車次菜色有沒有部長沒幫我打呼我知道你們底下單位有沒有這回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
783.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
805.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
甚至還有即時監控形成變動的行為為什麼要一個專章為什麼也是在幫公部門 中央跟地方真的有所依據然後可以靈活一些可以站在身心障礙者的對象的一個心境而且實際上的一個需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
807.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
825.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
而不是公部門在整個不管是計劃不管是預算執行的過程裡面好像這樣就會怎麼樣那樣就會怎麼樣可能是有司法性的問題如果申請法修成變成這個樣子那真的是障礙到不行了 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
828.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
855.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
障礙到不行了我今天講這些話不是針對部長啊我只讓部長知道整個原貌整個累積這一二十年來我們大無休法之後怎麼會搞到最後變成讓身心障礙者的朋友到行政院去抗議到立法院來陳抗然後當天又到台北火車站去一天有好幾個身障的團體在對我們中央政府在對地方政府表達訴求表達抗議 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
858.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
878.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以現在我們在這個委員會我們會覺得很心痛啦也覺得不知所云所以才今天會快速的要把生存網趕快排進來趕快來做這樣的一個討論嘛所以我希望部長是一個全方位的部長幾個面向裡面你都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
879.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
900.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
在你這個位置上展現更大的這樣的一個power不過那個同理心那個站在他們的角度站在他們遇到的狀況你實際上去了解去理解之後你才知道他們為什麼今天要再走上街頭來對行政院跟對立法院表達這樣的一個抗議跟訴求 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
902.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
909.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
最後我再補一點 剛剛部長有答覆某一個委員講到回胖症的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
911.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
925.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我覺得剛剛很可惜啦因為今天是針對深圳的法我一直也提醒大家各位委員就針對深圳障礙者朋友遇到的狀況我們大家可以及時廣義因為我剛剛整個跟醫事組在討論這個20幾個版本總共要修的法條並審將近高達177條177條所以審查起來的時間還算是滿農場的 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
939.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
966.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我們對一般的回胖者我們就會care我們就會在意的你知道這個身心障礙者有回胖症的比例有多高嗎行動不便長期累積下來然後運動量不足然後社區參與不夠然後就申請了一個自力生活申請一個助理個人助理反正就是障礙重重的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
969.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
990.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
貧窮肥胖永遠跟身障者沒有辦法脫離如果今天要去處理一般的肥胖者部長在這邊能不能對我承諾對全國的身心障者朋友承諾我們先來處理這個有肥胖的身心障礙者先來幫助他們先來協助他們可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
990.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1008.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我認同這個在他的順位上應該更優先那我也必須表達對委員很感佩過去的這個修法上其實有很多的進步那只不過這個時過境遷還有很多我們需要努力的地方那特別是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1008.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1026.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
個人助理的申請跟審查這個當然權限是在地方政府不過我們會來協調讓各個地方政府在審查許可的時候能夠更自信也能夠兼顧到這個身障朋友們他們的需要這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1027.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1052.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
謝謝部長答覆最後部長最熟悉的範圍我就讓你看身心在台北市的身心案子就醫過程遭遇到的這個困難的情形的比例就醫沒困難的45.6就醫有困難的是54.6其他就醫困難的原因就請部長詳閱啦我就不再贅述好 這是在台北市那其他縣市怎麼辦好 謝謝部長謝謝大家 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝 |