| IVOD_ID |
166320 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166320 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-15-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-10T11:20:40+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-10T11:44:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:23:20 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0cde789e5848fc554129e80178479e3604f1120d908022d4df93a7319753701da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:20:40 - 11:44:00 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員許智傑等38 人擬具「宗教基本法草案」案。
二、審查國民黨黨團擬具「宗教基本法草案」案。
三、審查委員葉元之等 18 人擬具「宗教基本法草案」案。） |
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謝謝主席 麻煩有請內政部 劉部長請劉部長可以了嗎 劉部長 先請劉部長來 請 那個 先請教一下劉部長我們去年 今年到目前為止 詐欺的財損多少錢你是說從那個造房條例到現在是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
34.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
54.689 |
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沒有 就今年 今年迄今報告我來準備一下好嗎大概826億沒有錯吧對嘛826億沒有錯嘛那小紅書啊 最近宣蘭大夫被禁了小紅書啊他詐欺的財損多少錢2億多 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
59.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
87.989 |
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兩億多是2024年到現在826億全台炸雞的財損在小紅書的平台上面負責的大概是兩億多這個比例我相信大家看得蠻清楚部長也應該可以了解就是因為這樣子懸殊的比例只有小紅書被禁引發非常多的議論部長說要守法 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
89.359 |
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113.228 |
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小紅書高風險依照炸防條例第42條近一年這個我看的是內政部的新聞稿台灣是法治國家我們就來依法論法第一個炸防條例第42條規範的要件它在規範的是網路廣告平台業者還是在規範炸棄網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
118.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
138.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
來我們看一下法條好不好為了處理詐欺犯罪防制緊急案件及時防制民眾接觸詐欺網站他講的是詐欺網站不是網路廣告平台業者第二個42條絕對不是像你們現在這樣解釋適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
143.207 |
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166.238 |
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沒有42條他要處理緊急性的案件他沒有相關的要件標準跟程序他是一個緊急性在移除一夜市的詐欺網站所適用的法條我們再往下看部長說小紅書他拒絕落地不能不遵守台灣的法律那抽象的概念上面來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
168.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
196.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
並不是說錯但我們來看一下打炸條例的規範是什麼因為我現在發覺我們大部分的人在討論這個問題的時候什麼大家都沒有依照法律來討論我為什麼講這件事情來看一下在新文化防治條例網路廣告平台業者利用網際網路於中華民國領域內提供網路廣告服務達到一定的規模適用本條例的規定沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
199.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
225.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那按照目前適用本條例規定的網路廣告平台業者要交由主管機關來公告納管的名單那目前納管的名單有哪些現在小紅書還沒有納進去不過這個是我們先一樣一樣來我們要利用詐欺危害防制條例那我們台灣是法治國家就要依法 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
228.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
254.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
網路廣告平台業者要依照打造條例納管必須要達到一定的規模由速發布來公告目前速發布公告的有FB有Google有Meta有Line目前依照這個條例納管的網路廣告平台業者只有這四家我的資訊有沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
257.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
284.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
沒有錯嘛那小紅書如果你們認為有必要要納管那是主管機關要納管因為我先帶你們看法條規範的要件你要被納管了以後才有法尊的要求這些法尊的要求包括了要求你要在我國落地要指定代理人或管理人要要求他們執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
286.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
308.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
打詐條例的法尊措施但問題是我現在我完全看不懂在幹嘛你說小紅書沒有符合我們的法尊要求但問題是你根本連公告納管都沒有啊我現在完全看不懂啊我們的主管機關到底是怎麼在適用法律的啊你如果認為小紅書很嚴重那就把他納管你一方面又不納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
317.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
329.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
你不那管怎麼樣去要求他符合打詐條打詐條例的法尊要求這是法條白紙黑字寫在上面可以示意一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
334.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
363.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
報告委員 我想您講的部分當然是在法條上的適用的問題啦台灣是法治國家當然是有法律啊當然我完全同意台灣是法治的國家但是我們通知小紅書他也沒有接受我們的通知啊我們是有把這個訊息通知到他兩回事齁你說不能不遵守台灣法律那要遵守台灣法律依照打炸條例的要求依照打炸條例的要求就是要公告納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
364.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
388.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那你也沒有公告他是要納管的範圍因此沒有辦法啟動打詐條例29條以下所有的程序規定我對法條的解釋應該是沒有錯啦現在我完全看不懂我們的政府在幹嘛跟人民說小紅書詐騙很嚴重所以我們要禁但是又沒有依照打詐條例把他納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
389.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
417.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
然後突然用了一個在豆腐一夜市詐欺網頁的打詐條例42條這根本法律適用錯誤啊我們為什麼要納管LINE要納管Google要納管Meta因為上面詐騙的訊息太多了嘛所以賦予他們義務我告訴你上面有詐騙的訊息你要移除喔你如果不移除我會處罰你喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
419.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
446.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
但是所有的這些義務的要求全部都建立在一個前提上這個網路廣告平台業者必須要被公告納管納管進來了以後你必須要依照打詐條例符合這些配合打詐的要求你如果不配合我接下來啟動法律效果罰你錢啊採取各式各樣法律授權的手段啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
447.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
457.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
但是我現在看到內政部在做這件事情是自己完全不守法第一個第一個他沒有納管啊我們要請他來他就不理我們啊對嘛請你回去看法條好不好你如果覺得他有納管的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
470.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
487.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我們的行政院我們的主管機關該做什麼把他公告成為納管的範圍你必須要遵守你如果不遵守接下來會發生ABCDE打詐條例寫得很清楚了但我的書發部根本沒有納管他 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
488.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
514.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以根本沒有去看29條的法律構成要件然後我再帶您看一次網路廣告平台業者依照打炸條約27條利用網際網路於中華民國領域內提供網路廣告服務且達一定規模適用本條例的規定那覺得小紅書規模很大有達到這個規模那你就應該要公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
515.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
539.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
全項一定規模的計算基準由數位經濟相關產業主管主管定之那就速發部要公告啊你也沒有公告把他納管然後你就說他上面詐騙很多然後就限制他然後你限制他引用的條文所以我剛才問你回到你們所引用條文的42條 42條當初 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
542.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
569.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
當初速發部的次長現在速發部的部長我在審法案的時候他說明的很清楚啊說第一個他必須要涉及到詐欺犯罪所以我才說那個網頁本身被你block住的那個網頁本身他必須要是詐欺犯罪的主體他必須要是詐欺犯罪的主體他封鎖的是詐騙網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
570.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
598.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
他不是在封鎖網路廣告平台業者上面有詐騙廣告這是兩回事因為知識體大我一定要講清楚如果可以用42條直接封鎖網路廣告平台業者直接封鎖網路廣告平台業者那打詐條例29條以下的規定形同俱文 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
599.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
619.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
因為219條規定的那麼繁複幹嘛還要公告納管還要遵守一定的程序還要罰錢不用啊42條帝王條款網路廣告平台業者我不公告納管也沒有關係我只要覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
620.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
648.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
你上面有詐騙的廣告我直接用42條封這絕對不是打岔條例當初立法上面的設計42條如果可以拿來對付廣告平台業者的話那29條以下的規定形同具穩通通都不需要了現在我很狐疑啦內政部在做這個決定以前在做這個決定以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
649.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
674.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
有跟法務部或者是速發部會商過嗎有嗎我們有在其他的場合上開會在哪裡開會在會議紀錄可以給我嗎沒辦法因為這是沒有關係你就告訴全台灣民眾你們在哪裡開會因為我很詫異啦內政部如果看不懂打詐條例或許情有可原 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
675.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
692.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
如果連法務部都看不懂 那就知識體大請問在什麼地方徵詢過法務部的什麼官員我們在行政院的時候有開會討論過這個部分然後法務部的代表有來 那個法務部的參事今天有來嗎來請參事請法務部參事內政部打造條例42條這樣適用 法務部是贊成的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
705.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
724.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我真的很驚訝報告委員因為我們今天是法治司列席我所接觸到的公文我是沒有看到有這樣一個函詢的公文沒有這樣函詢的公文就函詢的公文我是沒有看到但是我剛剛問的問題意思你應該聽得清楚嗎你應該聽得懂吧是您聽得懂嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
725.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
749.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我有很認真在聽不過這部分涉及到主管機關對法令的解釋解釋上當然如果有些疑義的話可能還是要回歸跟主管機關之間的對話所以法務部是不便表示意見就對了就這一題的話我覺得還是要看主管機關跟委員之間的對話會比較好這不是主管機關跟我的對話台灣是法治國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
751.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
779.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
法律一生效具有普遍全面適用性這個是政府跟人民的對話現在連人民都看不懂了連人民都看不懂 打炸條例42條可以這樣用喔哇 我的老天啊那42條可以這樣用 29條以下全部都廢了啦42條是超級帝王條款FB LINE GOOGLE29條以下都不要看啦42條以後只要 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
781.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
804.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
在那個網路平台頁折上面有詐欺的廣告在上面我直接用四十二條就屏蔽了什麼時候打在條例賦予主管機關這樣的權限因為剛剛部長說他們有在其他的場合徵詢法務部的意見啊我聽了這是大驚失色啊這是法務部的專業意見啊這個可能要再跟部長確認齁沒有關係你就回去確認沒有關係你就回去確認嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
812.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
830.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
就回去確認啊因為剛剛部長說有在其他場合遇到法務部有交換意見啊那我非常的詫異啊是不是可以請你回去的時候轉呈部長回去問一下法務部什麼時候什麼人表達過這樣的法律意見知識體大非常嚴重因為我現在是依法論法 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
836.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
850.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我沒有在搞什麼意識形態沒有在進行什麼政治操作當然我也不是什麼小紅書的代言人我自己根本沒有在用小紅書但是我接到很多人反應因為上面好像做很多的是彩妝嘛 化妝的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
852.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
879.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
可能都是一些比較我們的就是一些對化妝有興趣或者是其他什麼服飾有興趣的人在看的我自己是沒有用但是後來這個風波搞得這麼大我稍微把法條看一看在看了內政部的解釋我看了我只能夠說我就是大驚失色大驚失色 打詐條例當初在審議的時候一條一條做下來審是涉法不是這樣用的今天警政署有代表來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
881.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
901.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
來請任署的代表是誰告訴你們42條可以這樣用是哪一位法律專家告訴你們42條這樣用跟委員報告這個造房條例第42條就像剛剛委員您非常清楚所提到就是說其實所謂的一定規模我們這個前面的部分是依據造房條例27條公告列管的網路廣告平台業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
902.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
926.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那因為在當初小紅書他每一個月獨立的訪客數只有42萬人是所以他沒有達到我們的這一個不是啊那我就看不懂啊所以跟您報告啊那你如果覺得他的詐欺規模很大很嚴重就公告納管啊所以我們在用的45條就是針對這個並沒有他未達規模沒有納管的我們的立法意志裡面42條規範的對象是詐欺網站還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
931.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
934.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
網路廣告平台業者我們現在是網路平台業者詐欺網站來看一下42條 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
941.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
967.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
為處理詐欺犯罪防制緊急案件及時防制民眾接觸什麼 詐欺網站所以你認為網路廣告平台業者只要上面有詐騙的訊息他就構成了詐欺網站是嗎 你的法律解釋是這樣嗎跟委員解釋一下 我們是說當初我們的立法意思當初是說為了要防止民眾去接觸詐欺網站所以不管是司法警察機關或者是各目的市團機關就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
968.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
987.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
只要是有緊急案件的狀況就有機制處理的必要就會通知網際網路接取服務提供者但是你完全沒有回答問題啊請你不要看著你的稿再念因為我請教你的問題你現在手上背的稿完全沒有辦法回應問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
988.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
1001.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
你不要在那邊裝忙讓在看這個直播的人覺得說好像你講的很有道理但是大家仔細一聽發現你在念稿根本沒在回答問題剛剛你講的緊急性必要事和要件聽得懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
1002.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1030.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
要防止炸雞的目的大家聽得懂可以採取的措施大家聽得懂但是我現在跟你在討論的是規範的課題42條規範的課題當初在立法的時候處理的是炸雞網站什麼叫炸雞網站這個網站從頭到尾都在炸雞就你們在抓的所謂一夜市的網站那本身就是犯罪行為他是犯罪行為人的犯罪工具那現在什麼叫網記 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1032.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1048.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
廣告平台業者FB是嘛LINE是嘛Google是嘛他們在上面有人在上面刊登一些東西廣告上面有詐欺的訊息這是兩件不一樣的事耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1051.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1076.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
42條用的是詐欺網站不是網路平台業者所以我很好奇誰告訴警政署我們針對網路廣告平台業者可以用42條的這是我的問題因為法條白紙黑字那個你可以看一下螢幕你可以看一下螢幕那個法條的文字我怕你忘記我還把他列在上面給你們看誰告訴你可以用在 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1077.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1103.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
網路廣告平台業者上的因為我們是同時是因為他是詐欺網頁詐欺網站所以我們會令我們是讓令他提供接取服務的提供者同時要做停止解析或者去限制接取所以我們是在講是說這個是網路平台業對你在看上面就寫詐欺網站所以我就問你一題嘛你們42條的解釋這個詐欺網站包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1107.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1120.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
網路廣告平台業者是嗎你如果這樣子解釋的話我跟你講要出大事了不是不是那問題來啦你除非說整個小紅書就是詐欺網站否則你怎麼屏蔽 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1121.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1145.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
你認為小紅書整個就是詐欺網站嗎?整個小紅書就是詐騙行為人在進行詐騙用的網頁嗎?是嗎?報告員我們現在針對是街道檢舉跟以及有受理報案的詐欺的網頁去做停職解析先停一下喔所以你現在是小紅書上面只涉及到詐欺的停職解析還是整個小紅書的停職解析? |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1147.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1171.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
因為針對他的去接取的這些的提供者我們會一併的會去做這方面的一個體制解析對不起你沒有跟限制接取你沒有回答我的問題如果按照你今天的解釋可以成立的話那FB上面啦只要有詐欺廣告整個FB你都可以用42條屏蔽耶這是天大地大的事耶當初打詐條例就不是這樣設計的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1172.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1183.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
所以我一直在問你們啊你們在動用這個條文的時候到底請教了什麼法律專家什麼法律主管機關告訴你們打詐條例42條可以這樣用啊這是我的問題誰提出這個專業的看法42條如果給你們警政署這麼大的權利啊那嚇死人啊真的嚇死人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1199.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1222.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那速發部幹嘛要公告遺體並規模才要納管不用啊大大小小的任何即使不是炸機網站之本身即使是廣告平台業者上面有炸機的訊息我就可以用42條屏蔽我再說一次啊 打炸條例從來沒有給你們這樣的權限 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1224.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1241.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
打詐條例從來沒有給你們這樣的權盈線我要拜託警政署你們回去你們回去好好再看一看當初打詐條例在研擬的過程當中在研擬的過程當中42條是這樣用的我完全不敢相信42條絕對不是這樣用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1248.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1275.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
因為42條如果可以這樣用我再說一次29條以下的規範形同句文毫無意義那現在出了這樣的事情你們引用了錯誤的法條把自己的權限擴張到這麼大那新聞已經鬧成那麼大了連總統都出來力挺了連總統都出來力挺喔我看賴清德總統應該也是沒看過法條啦相信你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1276.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1282.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
現在出了這麼大的包接下來要怎麼收拾你們自己回去好好想一想 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1283.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1305.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
真的你們自己回去好好想一想我再次建議你們回去好好看一看42條當初怎麼擬出來的包委員可能有所誤會我們就是針對我們所蒐集到受理報案的詐欺網頁會喊給TWNIC去做這個停止解析所以我常常問你嘛所以整個小紅書在你的定義裡面他就是詐欺網頁是嗎他是詐欺網站嗎是嗎是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1311.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1327.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我們基本上就是依照這個規定去做停滯解析你就不要再強制多立了啦你就回答一個問題嘛整個小紅書在警政署的眼中是一個詐欺網站是符合42條構成要件的詐欺網站是嗎是這樣解釋的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1328.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1338.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
是12條當初的立法 意思是這樣嗎我告訴你啦熱狠 熱狠沒有 沒有關係你回去世界上各個國家哪一個國家為了打詐給我們的警察機關這麼大的權利哪一個國家可以讓你這樣子解釋不要去栽贓齁說我們不打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1357.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1383.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
打詐打得很兇啦!班委員這個真的是誤會我們其實不是光小紅書我們在Meta那個IG我們只要是你有涉及詐欺的網頁我們都會含蓄給TW進行這個停止解析的動作所以呢你講那個部分我們其實事實上沒有關係啦你可以繼續開記者會自言自語我直詢的point我相信有看的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1384.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1395.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
完全都catch到了我也不要浪費大家的時間那你們就回去好好想一想這樣子字義的解釋法條擴全到這種程度接下來你們要怎麼收拾就好謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢接下來請 |