| IVOD_ID |
16630 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16630 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-30T08:31:04+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-30T13:18:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:46:56 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685001fad9b8cd413afca3bf586b49d470bf7d7f547ae197440acf332a42d5750125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:04 - 13:18:00 |
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字幕志愿者 杨栋梁 |
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嗯嗯 |
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報告委員會初期委員人數施任已足法定人數請主席宣布開會 |
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1828.956 |
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好現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第八次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一十四年四月二十八日星期一九時至十三時九分地點群賢樓八零一會議室出席委員陳委員趙姿等十五人列席委員鄭委員鄭淺等六人列席官員環境部部長彭啟明等相關人員主席劉兆吉委員建國 |
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1856.591 |
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1879.087 |
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報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況並備質詢本日會議由環境部部長報告後委員陳昭芝等19人提出質詢均經環境部部長及各相關主管等即席答覆委員徐欣穎所提書面質詢列錄記錄刊登公報決定一報告及詢答完畢 |
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1893.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
二委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關期關於二週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定宣讀完畢好請問委員會議上次議事錄有無錯誤或疑慮之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1895.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1909.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那如果沒有我們就意思來做確定本會議議程為邀請勞動部部長經濟部及內政部就五一勞動節前夕我國勞工職長預防職業災害及廠廠墜落事故之檢討與精進作為進行專題報告並被質詢那現在介紹在場的委員第一位是陳昭志委員再來是蘇昭維 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1925.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1952.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
再來是林月琴委員再來是王振旭 王委員接下來介紹我們與會的官員勞動部部長 洪森翰勞動力發展署署長 黃寧玉謝謝勞動保險局局長 白立珍謝謝職業安全衛生署署長 林益棠謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1954.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1962.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
勞動及職業安全衛生研究所所長李伯昌我們重規師師長王厚成謝謝勞動關係師師長王厚為謝謝勞動保險師師長陳美女謝謝勞動扶植退休師副師長陳慧榮勞動條件及就業評審師師長黃維生 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1978.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2004.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
採訪法人職業災害預防及重慶中心執行長何俊傑經濟部產業發展署副署長周宇新農業署副署長李曉娟產業園區管理局副署長蘇鴻毅商業發展署副署長熊立恆水利署科長蔡耀慶國營事業管理司科長林漢龍 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2007.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2035.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
台灣電力股民有限公司處長徐進福台灣政府股民有限公司副處長傅佐藤內政部國土管理署總工程師士副總工程師蘇建榮建築管理署檢任正工程師盧昭宏營建管理署科長沈雅娟都市基礎工程組科長郭建文 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2038.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2042.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
好 謝謝好 那接下來我們就來請勞動部紅部長做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2053.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2068.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
主席各位委員大家好那感謝主席與各位委員的支持讓我有機會向各位報告勞動部預防職業災害及場場墜落事故之檢討與精進作為那敬請各位委員給予指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2070.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2083.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
勞動安全健康不僅攸關每位勞工的生命安全更是企業永續經營與國家穩定發展的重要基石本部積極推動各項職場防災的措施經由各界的協助和努力下 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2084.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2110.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
近10年的職業災害保險給付千人率已從103年的3467下降至113年的2375呈現逐年下降的趨勢那遺憾的是近期發生多起的重大公安事件其中部分重大公安事件處於複合式的災害涉及職業安全及公共安全等多面向為督促業者落實尊重職安 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2111.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2134.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
建築及消防法令等規定本部已積極檢討並提出下列精進的重點第一個是我們會來鎖定火災爆炸高風險廠廠專案檢查來強化製程安全的管理那列管易發生火災爆炸風險的石化廠及大型化學工廠等危險場所針對高風險者優先實施檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2137.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2156.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第二個我們會加強跨機關合作減災邀集經濟部內政部及交通部等目的事業主管機關就防災疫情進行研商並請各部會督促所屬事業精進災害預防措施第三個我們會修正職業安全衛生法增訂工程業主交付規劃設計及施工的風風險評估責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2161.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2180.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
並要求各級承攬商均應負起工程防災管理責任目前草案已報請行政院審查並將盡快送立法院審議第四個我們會善用化學雲資訊平台定期篩選全國申報使用危險物的事業單位清澈由勞動檢查機關依風險等集納管實施檢查或輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2185.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2205.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第五個會強化局限空間的作業防災措施針對高風險的局限空間作業辦理動態檢查並強化從業人員的防災知識第六個會提供中小企業協助由專業團隊輔導中小企業改善工作環境並提供輔助支援第七個會強化實務現場防災智能針對高風險廠廠及作業勞工辦理安全衛生宣導講習 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2213.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2232.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
督導雇主辦理教育訓練加強第一線人員職災預防意識第8個建立職災線上查詢平台建置重大職災公開網透過公眾監督機制使事業單位重視那再來是 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2233.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2240.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
另有關廠廠墜落事故的部分經統計全國111年至113年重大職災死亡人數907位其中墜落總共是444人約佔49%又以營造業墜落302人數為最高因為此本部於去年推動營造業墜落預防減災策進計劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2259.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2278.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
採取加強檢查裁罰及停工措施經統計113年營造業墜落職災死亡人數已降至83人較前年平均值減少17人那本部今年再會再採取下列更精進的作為第一個持續加強營造業墜落預防的專案檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2280.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2302.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
将重大建筑投资大型厂房等高风险工程列册实施监督检查第二个结合外部资源扩大施工安全监督强度运用减灾跨机关合作平台研讨减灾策略并办理联合稽查第三个持续与建设业营造业等雇主团体合作减灾 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2303.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2327.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
要求建設公司或大型工程業主善盡業主防災責任並提出具體改善做法第四個加強勞工墜落預防教育訓練辦理個人安全防護具以及防災知識及台灣職安卡等教育訓練第五個強化各級主管善盡安全管理責任要求營造高階主管及 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2328.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2340.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
各級承攬商負起安全衛生管理責任第6個提升移工危害預防知識對入境移工發放直接安全衛生宣導手冊並對中小企業推廣多國語語版的數位課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2344.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2366.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
為保障工作者及安全與健康達成持續降低職業災害之目標本部已規劃多項安慰減災措施並積極推動職安法修法以強化督促業者落實職業防災管理令對中小企業部分將以宣導輔導及設施輔助等多元措施提供協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2367.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2379.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
希望能擴大防災量能提升全民公安意識以及建構良好的職場安全文化以上報告敬請各位委員不吝指教並祝主席與各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2386.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2409.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
有關本次會議各項順便資料經列入記錄刊登公報那現在開始做懸導做一下宣告本位委員質詢時間6加2分鐘立席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如果順便質詢請三位請提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘原則上11點半出臨時提案10點30截止收案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員來做懸導 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2415.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2418.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩部長部長早部長早 明天就是五一勞動節去年六五代表民進黨黨團去參加勞工大遊行當時你有說要把勞工的聲音帶進行政部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2439.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2456.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
哪你知道一年後你現在就在行政部門而且你是最高這個主管勞工事務的一個最高機關勞動部的部長那我想先請教你你明天會出去面對廣大勞工的一個訴求嗎跟回應嗎你明天再去嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2458.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2480.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我明天不會去遊行啦但是你會不會去面對他們的訴求但是其實勞工朋友提出來的一些訴求我想我們在部裡面都會討論而且認真的來去做思考這樣的意思說你了解他們的訴求是什麼嗎他們今年有七大訴求你知道他們的訴求是什麼嗎知道當然你知道他們的訴求知道講一兩個聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2481.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2500.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我可以跟你講全部啦第一個當然大家這次很重要的訴求是反霸凌然後反霸凌要保障的部分然後再來有包括大家期望其實很多老公一直都期望有降低工時或者是國家的調整那也包括其實也希望有更多的老年的保障老年的平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2501.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2523.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
謝謝部長 因為我那陣子你都在想我問你 你就都不記得了那今天你做了準備 但是你對這個訴求你們有沒有開始討論一些想法呢 還是就是放著其實我們當然不會放著啦第一個是就像這次 我想很多 我認為不只是勞工團體啦有很多勞工朋友現在都很關心的霸凌的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2524.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2542.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我們其實現在也是在治安法的修法上面其實放入了這個霸凌防治的專章那就是希望去回應其實這段時間社會對於霸凌議題的期待謝謝部長這個部分我們民眾黨也提出了一個專法出來了我們大概很努力要推動它 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2543.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2566.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那部長其實很多人都說換位置換腦袋但我覺得換位置不是他是個負面說法其實換了位置你做事方法會不一樣但是我想有一些價值是不能改變的就是說因為你現在從這個監督者變成行政者那你更有行政的權利去幫助你當年你的理想跟報復你承諾這個勞工的這個對他們的這個承諾嘛我想說你是不是同意這個說法你現在更有權利去幫助他們啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2573.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2598.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
行政方面的當然是行政會有一些行政方面的空間像我只能監督勞動部但是我不能叫他一定要去做什麼我就沒有這個所以你現在有這個權利囉那部長那我們來看一個事情這個其實我也是很這個不雙標的啦對我的母校母院台大醫院前兩天對五一勞動節加班醫院的調查表這個調查表在網路新聞媒體都看得到部長你看過了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2601.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2618.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
很明顯的調查表裡面只有兩個選項他是同意到院工作並選擇調移國定假日還有另外一個選擇是同意到院工作並領加班費但是通篇沒有一個是依法休假一日當天不到院工作因為他們很多人是這個老計法保障的 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2620.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2644.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
這個選項等於是說你強迫他們就只能到院然後再來看看怎麼處理雖然台大醫院的發言人說他們是針對有意願來工作來上班人才調查但是但是台大醫院崗會講的不一樣喔他們做的調查是75.8等於76超過四分之三的他們的會員說他們根本沒有被告知就強迫排進去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2646.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2674.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
假設你是員工你對這個選項這個調查表你有什麼看法呢跟委員報告其實在這個案件上我們有看到我自己也看了那個調查表那台大醫院狀況其實我們已經在4月28號的時候當天已經發函給台北市政府請他們的勞檢來協助了解狀況再來一個是我覺得很重要的是如果現在工會的陳情的內容確實的話他們的調查就台大醫院所製作的書表看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2676.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2694.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
應該有三個選項嘛是不太容易讓勞工完整表達他們的想法的所以我們也要建議所有的事業單位就國定假日跟工作日對調的實施不是建議喔雖然衛福部也是管醫院但是這個就勞工的部分你是責任欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2697.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2721.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以我現在要說的是我們其實已經在4月28號已經發函要求特區市政府做檢查第二個我剛才也說了如果就目前的這個書表的內容來看的話我自己也覺得恐怕是這個不容易讓勞工完整的表達不容易讓勞工完整的表達他們對這個事件的看法我想我自己也是認為是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2721.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2748.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那部長我也跟你講我在醫院工作的一輩子不要擔心總是會有人願意把醫院的工作完成醫院不會因此而因為他們的權益而停止這個對外服務這部分當然陳委員比較有意見比較有經驗今天的主題你把這個勞動部去年2024我也不知道你上任沒有他把它去年定為營造業最弱打擊年他希望整個最弱死亡的人數營造業低於68人可是最後還是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2749.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2755.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
85位勞工因墜落死亡就是去年的數字部長那你知不知道當初為什麼訂個68人呢雖然我知道你剛剛報告65不過媒體是寫68人但是相去不遠你這個目標是怎麼訂出來的為什麼會訂出這個人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2766.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2786.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
過去應該是因為就前三年的一些平均然後定了一個降低30%的目標那今年呢那個是過去定的那這一年呢你定了多少你的目標政策是多少人呢我們目前還是希望能夠做到這個目標那你這樣就停滯啊去年達不到那你今天就繼續你沒有想到要改進嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2788.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2813.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
不敢把目標降的修正嗎根文說明其實並不是不想改進我們其實很努力跟包括我們自然屬很多同仁都在進行改進但我們在方法上希望能夠更強化因為實際上面這個做法上還是要實施就像去年確實有沒有達標的狀況可是我們還是希望在這個目標上面盡量我們希望能夠在這個目標上面去做到但重點是方法上要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2813.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2830.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
更重要的狀況我們建議但是行政部門重點是方法上就像委員說的要有新的方法要有強化的做法結果墜落死了85人那你現在又說因為打不到所以不敢把這個標準再繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2832.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2852.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
做修正那就可以年復一年了在到達這個68年之前永遠不要修正啊我不是這個意思我的意思是說我們都希望能夠精進但精進的重點在於方法所以我們要有更強化的方法有些做法我們要做得更更到位甚至要有新的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2853.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2880.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
今天你的報告裡面唯一沒有包含的就是這個當然治安法是有規定僱主必須提供符合安全規定的這個一些衛生這個設備及措施防止墜落讓這個物體飛落等等會有崩壞之餘的一些場所引起的危害但是我看了一下其實整個罰則你今天沒有提到罰則的部分如果無人傷亡就罰3萬到30萬有人因此死亡是處3年以下有期徒刑或病科罰金30萬以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2882.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2896.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
受傷人數在三個以上也只需要一年有期徒刑或併科18萬以下的罰金部長你覺得這樣罰則有辦法讓促使僱主提供一個安全的工作環境嗎所以我們就是因為認為這個罰則太輕所以現在所以現在把這個罰則的提高放入了職安法的修法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2902.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2916.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我的意思是說你讓雇主覺得我要提升設備安全設備的措施成本可能比摔死一個人的30萬還要高所以你這樣子你這個有恫嚇力嗎所以營造業通常資本雄厚所以我們就是覺得罰則不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2918.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2940.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
所以才在這次的修法裡面放入了罰則的提高就是希望能夠更加的落實相關的法規讓剛剛就像剛剛委員說的希望能夠讓營造業有那個被有恫嚇有恫嚇力你說有恫嚇力或者是他必須要去執行我聽你看你自己的數字齁這個違反這個治安法的法規齁你看越來越高2023年是2000多件2024年是又增加了幾百件 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2947.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2964.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
當然今年是現在還有一季的資料所以你看你是不是要更加用努力去保障高空作業勞工的安全因為不合格率越高他就在暗示風險就是一直存在甚至一直在提高難怪你的數字達不到標當然我覺得該檢討的部分有沒有做到位的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2965.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2968.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我們其實會徹底檢討那很多事情大家都說你有什麼標準那我們常常都是看鄰近國家或其他國家嘛那我想這個數字你知道吧部長你可不可以知道當然你在書面報告有稍微提到了我們有兩天我們我國因為營造業的勞工墜死的比例超過六成 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2985.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3001.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那日本是四成新加坡是不到三成那人家是怎麼做到的那右邊這個就是勞研所的研究左邊是個無法改變的事實目前就是這樣子沒有做好那右邊勞研所的研究提到我國並會針對人員墜落預防有直接的訓練而且相關的課程時數不足更沒有實務的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3010.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3027.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
訓練課程這個研究有提到日本日本是因為這個日本大約四成嘛靠近四成以及他們有將墜落預防的教育那種分為學科跟數科就是講一個知識的東西沒有數科是不行的數科就是實務的訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3028.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3040.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
在醫院醫學院的訓練也都是如此有知識的但是也有實習實際去操作的部分那這個部分那個而且勞工要受這個相關訓練的一些教育訓練都要相關要都要去做部長那你認為在高空的這麼危險的環境中勞工作的勞工怎麼樣訂立一個制度提供一個正確的公安跟知識跟這個技能部長您訂立要多努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3054.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3078.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
因為方法很具體嘛就是沒有做的東西很具體嘛如果做的東西都沒報過就對了謝謝委員建議其實這一次我們也是在治安法的修法裡面把其實過去確實可能在工地會有層層轉包的狀況下這也造成很多在營建業工地裡面的這個風險包括墜落的風險我們也是把這些相關的責任的整合在這次修法裡面做了放入跟處理這樣子請部長多費心謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3081.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3097.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
好 謝謝陳昭智委員的發言 謝謝部長的回應 下一位我們請林衛巡委員發言謝謝主席 有請我們的洪部長有請洪部長嘿 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3104.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3131.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
部長早那根據去年的調查有13person15到19歲的青少年選擇從事營造工作暫居第三那這個工作俗稱小工或善工特性便是薪水相對事實上高按日計籌大概一天1200到1800左右可是是臨時性的危險性也高那多半是沒有勞健保的那這個行業呢有高薪的吸引力可是很危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3132.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3149.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
降低營造業的高職災率還有高職災死亡率的話特別是我覺得高處墜落導致死亡的那樣的一個議題呢事實上主要是在保護勞工產業甚至事實上是一直我很關心的那個青少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3151.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3166.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那大概根據我們的新加坡的就是2022年數據台灣的重大職災每10萬人死亡率事實上是新加坡的兩倍那日本是1.8倍 荷蘭是9倍那台灣的職災 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3167.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3194.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
死亡又以营造业市上是最多2024年国内职灾的死亡率营造业占50.33%为制造业的6.4倍其他产业的28倍所以想问部长营造业从业人数仅占劳工比例的6%而已可是但死亡人数长期是居各产业之冠五年逐年占比45%到50%在灾害的管理上这意味着 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3195.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3201.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
風險集中其中必然有常態性的管理疏失跟違規的問題請問部長你如何解釋這種風險集中的現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3206.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3231.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
跟委員報告那確實這個營造業在台灣目前大概佔的重大值在超過50%那我們檢討的話大概是主要是目前的在台灣的這個營造工地就是呃這個層層轉報的情形非常嚴重那在轉報的過程中他將風險就一併轉嫁到下報所以這一次我們在這一次的子安法修法裡面也特別要去處理這一塊就是每個包商都要負責安全衛生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3231.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3241.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
對我看老公部也是希望說針對降低營造業最弱高度制止要做強化不過本期也很懷疑這些措施到底有沒有達到有效降低我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3243.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3262.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
營造業的那個植栽的死亡率的效果為什麼這樣講呢根據六年來的一個統計新加坡跟日本營造業他們的那個致死率 墜落致死率大概是在40%左右那韓國的確事實上是比較高大概53%左右可是台灣的更高在60到70 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3263.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3288.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那所以想問一下我覺得去年勞動部把降低營造業的最弱死亡為重點項目宣稱2024年要達到剛剛我想部長也有報告也就是營造業的最弱打擊年就2024年是目標死亡人數要低於68人那對可是2024年全民營造業的最弱死亡事實上是83人整體 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3289.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3312.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
在整體的受傷人數事實上是56.3%是沒有達標的所以我想問一下部長政策推動一年營造業最多死亡率人數確實有下降可是效果不如預期難保一個放鬆那數字又會上升上來你是否認為現行的預防措施到底夠不夠是不是有加強有計畫加強我們的檢查跟查罰的罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3314.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3338.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那個跟立委說明其實我們確實在參考一些其他國家的經驗就比方說我剛才講到新加坡那在新加坡的例子裡面我們也看到新加坡的確他因為他的業主的責任很重那我們過去我們的食安法裡面其實對於業主其實比較難去跟他苛責跟究責比較多都是對於下面的包商 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3339.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3359.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
的責任所以這一次在治安法裡面我們也把業主的責任能夠救的部分給放進來這也是我們在參考剛剛就像委員說的其他國家的經驗上面我們做了參考跟檢討以後覺得應該要在法規上面有所精進跟修訂好 所以要麻煩因為部長過去也一直很關心勞動議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3361.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3387.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那所以針對於勞動部歷年的報告做分析營造業發生職災的造勢原因包括防護設備配置不當支架這些本體的強度不足還有防罪器性能強度不足還有個人護具呢我們的佩戴不確實在工地的管理上不管是勞工的個人行為或是雇主 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3388.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3406.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
沒有善經教育的訓練的責任違規好 故意違規這都是問題所以不知道職安法對於我們職業的安全管理以自主管理為原則政府介入為特殊狀況可是這樣的態度立法並實務上是要政府介入的方式都是要有人舉報就舉報違規 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3409.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3424.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
或者是政府要主動發起專案檢查才能夠啟動勞動檢查作為直接介入的手段所以勞動檢查每年都在做這些做法是不是真的能夠有效降低我們的植栽的發生率跟死亡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3426.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3444.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
老檢是手段之一那其實我想大家也知道老檢其實他常常是比較後面他是要讓這個我們的法規能夠真的被落實那他是方法之一可是也不是全部都靠勞動檢查所以包括在源頭的部分的檢栽也需要甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3444.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3466.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
其實也需要一些跨部會的合作 我說跨部會合作 比方剛剛大家在講到這個營造業的部分那我們也希望能夠跟內政部或國土署那針對在這個目的世界主覽機關上面那我們怎麼跟他們一起來做合作所以整體的剪裁的做法裡面 我想方方面面我們都希望能夠做得更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3468.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3496.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
不過也想問 部長因為我一直很關心我們的耳哨 當然青少年也是我關心的一塊 剛剛前面也講說他們有13%是在這個營造業裡邊而且15歲到24歲尤其是15歲到16歲本來工作他們不應該進入到這個行業 更何況17到18本來就有些更多的保障所以我覺得勞動部如何去怎麼去提升特別一些安全意識尤其是在營造業工作的這些青少年們 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3497.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3521.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
其實我想其實整體我自己是認為營造業整體的安全文化跟安全意識都需要提升然後這個也不是只針對青少年的部分那我自己也認為說當然包括營造業的法尊能夠做的到位包括他們的安全衛生的管理的相關機制能夠做的到位可能才有辦法比較真正的去保護到在裡面工作的這些青少年或二少 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3521.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3548.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所以他還是必須從一個這個根本的原因去做思考可是如果需要的話我們也覺得對於很多公安的文化那怎麼樣勞工有更多這方面的意識跟教育這部分當然我們也希望能夠多做這樣子因為我覺得畢竟青少年還是比較脆弱啦尤其營造業本來風險就比較高那參考荷蘭、英國、新加坡這些國家對職業安全他們事實上的態度、經濟態度比我們台灣更高 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3548.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3571.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
他們採取的是強制企業提交風險評估報告來違規停業處分那甚至要求是勞工參與監督制度安全預算納入工程總預算或者是專項的整治高風險的工地這些手段目的就是確保我們的產業呢事實上是可以投入足夠的經費來對於職業安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3574.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3593.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
能夠做投資可是相對於台灣這個觀念投資的觀念並不普遍所以我覺得我認為原因應該是法律為民定就像我這邊提的為民定比例還有產業真的是不夠重視所以至於我們的投資態度是這樣消極而且官方沒有什麼數據所以想問一下營造業 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3594.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3608.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
企業平均每年在安全設備跟人員培訓上到底投入多少資源到底勞動部有沒有掌握還有政府除了宣導鼓勵有沒有更具體的作為要求企業要增加安全投資的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3609.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3629.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
跟文說明其實我們跟文感受是一樣的就是說過去其實在針對風險的評估上面做得不夠也沒有入法所以這一次我說一樣是這次治安法的修法我們有把業主在安全風險評估上的責任而且要提撥一定的經費用於這個安慰 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3630.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3649.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
這個安全衛生的投資的部分我們其實也寫到這個法規裡面那讓下面的承包商其實有比較充足的經費來做這些相關的運用跟做工地的管理所以這是這次我們修法的重點之一好謝謝部長這樣很好那就希望你們的法趕快能夠也送進來能夠保障那 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3653.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3677.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
媒體報導 大概今年初到三月底光是重大職業安全意外事件就已經報導六起了十人死亡 五十八人受傷其中營造業的職安事件就佔了一半這還不包括沒有被媒體披露的事件所以我想問一下 去年勞動部以降低營造業最多死亡為重點項目死亡人數定在六十八人以下今年應該持續進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3679.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3683.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
而且手段應該更精進 所以想問一下部長今年的目標是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3684.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3708.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我們今年的目標還是在因為去年其實很坦承說還有沒有做到的部分但是我們今年是希望有一些更精進的手段來做這個目標的達成所以也麻煩部長針對這我現在提出來的兩點就是提高營造業勞工的公立安全意識 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3709.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3721.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那畢竟我剛剛講我關心那一塊他也還在這個工作場域裡邊 青少年那增加營造業的職業安全的投資比例然後所以這是不是兩週內可以給我具體的書面報告那 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3724.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3738.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
稍微再給我一點時間再問部長一個問題就4月初北捷清潔派遣人員在臺灣勞動派遣產業工會的協助下跟北捷公司發生我們的勞資爭議也就是他們發動這個勞資爭議勞工主述北捷將清潔工 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3744.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3759.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
做委外 派遣人員連之水北街跟派遣公司之間的合約中斷因此有勞工工作十年那他還是只有三天特休的這個爭議這個案子勞工有跟勞動部陳情所以想問部長這邊針對這個案子是不是請你做說明說 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3763.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3789.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
過去對政府單位習慣將清潔保安這些工作委外的做法勞動部的看法是什麼他針對本案勞動部如何協助這些清潔工取回他們受損的權利或者是預計你怎麼處理好我們其實非常非常關注北捷的這個案子北捷跟清潔人員這個案子其實勞務為了保障派駐的勞工的權益其實我們是有定有這個勞務承攬的參考原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3790.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3815.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那其中針對特別特休的計算其實我們就明定其實應該由於法令來給那在參考原則裡面的第四點其實就說那這個提供勞務而未中斷年資的人應該從他在這個機關工作那從第一日算到他這個相關的年資都應該並計然後來計算他的特休的日數 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3816.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3838.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那包括工程會其實也訂定了勞務採購契約範本來告訴這些承攬的廠商同一機關如果未中斷服務的年資的話應該何必計算來給予特休的年數所以確實現在如果從資料上面看到如果這些清潔人員的陳情是屬實的話目前看起來北捷很可能有違反了其實我們訂定的參考員還有工程會的契約範本 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3839.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3858.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
所以其實在這個週一我們已經發函給台北捷運那要求他們應該要落實法規那讓這個清潔人員應該要有依法的這些特修的權益好 謝謝部長也持續能夠再持續協助他們謝謝謝謝林岳勳委員的發言謝謝部長的答詢下一位我們請陳建惠委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3869.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3876.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
謝謝主席 謝謝主席 謝謝委員 謝謝官員我也想邀請勞動部部長請黃部長這邊好好 部長好今天我們想就勞動部對於新媒體推動業務這些成效來做一個總體檢那我們來看一下這是您勞動部的這些圖都製作得非常精美所以想必也是用了蠻多費用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3898.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3925.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
但最左邊有個工會簽訂團體協定有9個人按讚再來我們看跨領域就業津貼全攻略15個人按讚還有這些卡通畫得非常漂亮婦女在就業漫畫圖有18個人按讚以及婦女在就業一樣是18個人按讚那之後因為您還蠻擅長新媒體這個部分請問你有沒有要就這些新媒體的成效推廣做一些改進呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3927.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3952.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
因為我看你這邊列的應該是IG的部分但是我們其實可能一個圖文的宣傳不會只放在一個單一個社群平臺所以同時我們也會放在比方說放在Facebook放在Thread都會放但是我目前就我知道的是其實在其他平臺的效果其實是蠻不錯的相關的點閱或者按讚數其實應該比 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3953.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3982.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
可能在IG我們可能剛開始經營吧好好沒關係那再來我只是給你看一下這個也是最新的一個我認為其實也蠻重要就是紓困貸款開放申請他只有8個人按讚那您知道說紓困貸款這些很多也是年輕人那IG剛好是一個年輕人很會用的平台啊所以我也會希望說未來你們對於這方面年輕人會用的新媒體可以再做更多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3982.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3995.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
有效的推廣更多的有效的推廣不一定代表是需要花更多錢跟委員說明因為你的這個裡面寫說媒體宣傳大筆大筆花其實應該沒有大筆大筆花沒關係等一下我們來討論我有準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3999.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4021.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我有準備資料我有準備資料我只是覺得你有這麼好的平台而且你個人其實也是在之前嘛也算是一位非常善於經營新媒體的所以我希望你可以把你的專長應用在發揮在勞動部上面我們能夠做更好的部分我們願意來做那當然我只是點出這些問題那希望以你的專長是可以改進的 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4022.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4024.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那當然再來呢這也是很多人到現在還在說的啦這個YT頻道你們也成立蠻久的啊那之前其實我也看部長還不是部長的時候也很擅長經營YT不敢這樣說 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4037.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4057.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
因此我們來看這些這個演唱會已經是被主計部統計出來囉總共是花368萬辦演唱會加上給同位導演做剪片那剪了五六支片其中也有幕後花絮啊等等的這些好你看一年前至今也是只有幾百次嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4058.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4078.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
所以我也希望您可以利用你的專長來改進這一個部分我不敢說這個社群媒體經營是我的專長我不敢這樣說那我們等一下看一下因為其實您個人的按讚都大勝於勞動部如果可以的話我們也希望可以應用到勞動部這上面來再來我們來看這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4079.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4100.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我有看了您11月上任的誓詞當時你有一段很感人的誓詞你說我要當全民的部長然後我要當勞工的靠山那我們先來看您的這個IG非常多追蹤者也希望可以引用到勞工部這邊這不算多第一個你已經不是民進黨立院黨團的議員了啦當初陳菊加入監察院的時候就暫時註銷了黨籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4107.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4116.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
因為您的誓詞裡面是全民的部長 您覺得這個妥協嗎 您還把DPP黨團放在第一個精華DPP黨團這個應該 我們應該已經改版了這是我們昨天才看的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4128.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4157.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
陳委員我這樣說第一個我是勞動部長洪森漢這句話是事實這個勞動部沒宣費被大砍也是事實好等一下我們會來看勞動部沒宣費什麼叫做大砍然後我也有剪出我們之前來檢討預算這個部分好不好但是您用週末的時間秉持您的立場去做大宣講這個當然是OK可是因為這個IG是24小時在run的嘛那 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4158.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4177.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我覺得您的誓詞裡面希望自己可以秉持行政中立而且我們有看其他其實很多部門的部長他們並沒有這樣子做啊他們並沒有這樣子做啊他們可能週末的時候大選講可是他們在平常自己的社群是秉持行政中立的尤其是24小時的好那我們等一下來看為什麼你要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4178.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4183.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
勞動部沒宣費被大砍所以拜託追蹤一起挺勞工剛剛我給您看的那幾個貼文喔8個讚18個讚15個讚很多都發生在預算整理之前喔所以以前你覺得沒有被砍的時候也是做得很差然後後來呢你覺得被砍還是做得很差所以請大家追蹤這樣子不對吧這樣說不過去吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4204.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4220.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那個陳委員第一個我還是要說在某些特定的社群平台上面的這個宣傳成效有沒有值得更加強的地方我想我們願意回去檢討這部分是這樣那你剛才講的是IG的部分我們願意回去檢討這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4224.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4237.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
第二點確實今年的煤酸煤圈費用 沒關係我們來看我們來看一下今年的煤酸費你的公務預算是變62那我已經跟市長確認過了最後呢你們是減少6好 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4239.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4251.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
有沒有大砍 你在這邊當立法委員的時候是111年喔許民村編的是49萬所以今年你62減6 你還比許民村多然後你現在說 我被大砍了請大那你覺得說 你覺得許民村做得很差 他錢不夠他後來 他只有編49萬 你那個時候也覺得OK你那個時候並沒有覺得許民村拿這49萬少 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4266.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4288.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
再來你明明就知道大部分的沒宣費就在救安基金裡面你今年救安基金編了兩億多喔你編了兩億多喔那你知道自己為什麼被剪裂其實是因為三個黨的委員當時都有諸多批評每個人都輪流發言那我先剪一小段讓你回憶一下你當時呢聽完三個黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4291.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4300.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
藍綠白所有委員的意見你說對你會深刻檢討你講出為什麼媒體宣傳救安基金這一塊做得不好你要如何檢討最後你是謝謝大家簡列我們是並案簡列一千萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4305.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4328.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
劳动部近年来多次以开口庆约来办理这些煤轩的采购啊等等行销案所以这次你们大幅的增加4000多万那人民当然觉得必须要严格的监督并且是限制型的招标只有取三家厂商标从2022年到2024年看都是民事年代还有三立得标金额介于3500万至4200万之间这个未来您的这个分配我们都会严格在审视好吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4328.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4351.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我可以简单说明大家很关心开口契约的问题其实有大部里面以后在12月的时候我们就对开口契约的试用做出了检讨所以接下来比方说一些活动或者是影片我们尽量的因为过去其实出问题的部分就是把这个活动跟影片用在开口契约里面所以其实当时我就把这些相关的标案做了检讨未来其实这些活动或者是影片我们尽量的不用开口契约的方式来去进行该用采购法 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4353.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4363.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
我們就用採購法招標而不用公開開口契約所以我們對於公開契約的適用範圍做出了一些相關的限制那這部分其實已經正在做了所以這個結論是服務費用媒體政策及業務宣導費減略一千萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4371.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4394.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
當時召委是宣布並藍綠白委員的案最後並檢列一千萬你也講到說你有很多做得不足的地方你要檢討你要檢討結果你現在是在這個IG上哭窮說我被大砍了請大家一定要追蹤你被大砍你被大砍以前IG也成效非常的差這是第一點第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4395.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4409.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
兩億多你經過自己的檢討你謝謝大家好最後病案所有委員的病案檢列一千萬你說謝謝你也會再檢討然後事情就沒辦法做以前許民村拿49萬的時候也沒哭窮你也覺得他做得好棒棒這還是你審的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4410.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4429.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
跟委員說明到現在為止去年我12月來到部裡的時候我要再說一次我們確實對於開口契約的適用就做出了檢討甚至我們就把當時的標案給停下來了到目前為止勞動部是沒有開口契約的標案的 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4429.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4445.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
所以剛剛在講的這些相關的社群媒體的製作坦白說都是這段時間我們公務同仁非常非常辛苦做的東西我跟你說你應該要把什麼東西列上來我們再來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4446.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4449.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
這是您以前當立法委員的時候所立的規矩來我們必須要把辦理政策宣導相關廣告執行情形每一個月更新給人民看放到網站上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4466.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4494.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
好 你是11月上任啊2024年12月以前喔每一筆清清楚楚的都在上面但是2025年11月以後就沒有囉我給你看一下113年12月以前我還可以我們全民都還可以看得到你用救安基金的錢而且救安基金的錢早就可以用啦連你們勞發署都說早就已經開始用啦那為什麼你們還沒有把它放上網站呢根文說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4495.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4517.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
剛剛的那個是我們在去年12月31號以後我們就沒有開口契約的廣宣計劃了我現在在講你沒有更新你的媒體政策及業務宣導因為去年12月以前是有開口契約的廣宣計劃但是12月之後就沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4518.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4524.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我跟你說你2020年12月以前不管是基金啊 勞保局啊 本部啊都馬通通會寫上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4526.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4548.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
跟委員說我們在12月之後就沒有開口契約的 沒宣計畫了我希望你們還是可以定期去更新這是我給你看一下衛福部的這是衛生福利部的這是衛生福利部他今年1到3月他好好的告訴人民說他的政策及業務宣導執行情況再來這個是再來還有環境部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4556.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4559.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
環境部的也把它全部列上去列了非常的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4562.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4587.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
所以你沒有因為沒有開口契約所以你沒有我們是真的很認真的檢討開口契約的試用所以我該檢討的部分我們就檢討所以現在就是沒有的所以我只是想說剛剛其實去講很多的成效其實真的這些目前的社群的經營都是我們的公務同仁自己去分工是非常非常辛苦在進行這件事情的我有看你們的素材我覺得非常用心 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4589.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4608.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
所以我開宗明義就說希望您第一希望您利用您的專長也可以發揮到華文部上嘛這是您的專長之一啊第二我希望您行政中立嘛是對啊很合理嘛是當然因為許民村拿的錢比你少很多啊好第三我也希望你們可以讓他公開透明你可以讓他公開透明嘛委員這個經費的比較不是這樣比的 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4615.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4637.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
媒宣經費的比較不是我真的說媒宣經費比較不是這樣比過去真的部裡面是真的是很依賴比方說這個開口契約的部分你的救安基金等一下你的救安基金編了兩億多然後在我們全部的人都有共識之下簡列一千萬這個是事實好那簡列什麼原因什麼原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4639.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4663.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我們也都在這邊公開討論已經講完了其實我們也都講完了我們也只希望你好好你的我們等一下就把這張再還給你好嗎我們現在只是希望把事情做好那希望公開透明因為大家覺得說你沒有跟許明春把錢要回來要回來還要用公務 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4664.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4679.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
公務預算去支應最後你寫了一個申付報告說這是為了提升勞工的福祉所辦的演唱會還有剪的影片大家人民都已經覺得看不太下去了因為你的申付理由你的申付理由跟你這邊對我們做一個檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4682.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4711.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
根本搭不起來最近很多勞工團體來拜訪我就播了這幾個影片給他們看啊我說勞動部部長說現在這個活動是為了提升勞工的福祉請問你們看完這個演唱會看完這個影片你們有覺得自己福祉被提升了嗎你到底是有做問卷調查你是哪邊看出他們福祉有被提升沒有勞工你這個話這個深附理由如果在勞動部的網站或是IG貼出來說我當初許民村辦的這個演唱會是有提升勞工福祉 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4712.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4719.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我看下面有幾個人會回啊可以讓我時間你剛才說的讓我先做說明嗎第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4721.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4749.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
正是因為包括審計也包括立法院希望我們救安基金的錢不應該在這個擴大使用的範圍就是變成是我們是希望在這個發展署下面相關的計劃來去做使用所以我們才覺得我今天不我接下來就是不希望再用救安基金的錢來做部裡面可能跟救安沒有相關事情的沒宣的使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4750.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4757.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
所以目前部裡面相關的這些煤圈的計畫是沒有開口契約的 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4758.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4786.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
所以這不是說拿著說你就按基因這邊很多錢如果大家同樣說就按基因很多錢我這邊就可以用的話那這就回到過去了這就回到過去大家批評的狀況了主席這是我的時間然後很多人關心這題所以我要再把它問完那等一下我們拿我們的資料再給你最後呢這個是您非常在乎的也是您常常質詢的甚至之前質詢的時候說應該要修法我也不用引用啦因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4787.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4811.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
其實我本來希望劉建國早晚有在台上但是他今年就有提案指出說你的這個事辦計劃沒有提供雇主誘因也沒有強制要求雇主執行導致利益良善的政策流於形式建議簡列及凍結各100萬預算但勞動部改善問題後書面報告得以動之林淑芬委員也在這邊講到說當初勞動部不願意聽取民意一意孤行讓彈性運價成為一個註定失敗的事辦計劃所以幾十萬家中小企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4816.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4840.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
只有89個單位參加 申請人數還只有182人這個不知道您會提出報告給劉建國召委嗎會啊 其實我想關於彈性留庭的做法上面我們其實現在一直在朝向往更彈性的做法上面去做研擬但確實我們現在也是在考慮包括比方說財務上面的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4842.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4852.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那因為這裡面涉及到比方說Joba基金的運用財務性的限制也包括我們要怎麼去降低可能雇主會因為彈性運流停所以排班上面的挑戰所以在這幾個考慮點之內現在我們還是持續在研擬方案在做討論中 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4858.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4886.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
這邊是之前也蠻多人提供給您的就是不是公部門先來做表率因為公部門開始做做的成效好就可以說服私部門甚至給私部門誘因來參與這樣子的事辦計畫但是這個問題我們已經問了好多次了到至今呢業管都說一直在做意見上的收集還有統整我只是想單純的問一下請問您現在找了公部門的哪些機關已經有做了一些意見上的統整我們只是問一下進度而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4888.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4912.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
呃我們現在其實的方向不一定是以公部門私部門這樣去分啦其實甚至是如果要去進行的話其實不一定是分公部門私部門所以我們等一下可以跟你邀到一個書面資料你已經找誰做了溝通跟統整呃我們現在我們我們其實現在跟包括不跟產業界當然在做一些討論然後跟勞工團體跟相關人就在做一些討論是那等一下再請你提供會議記錄謝謝啊謝謝部長謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4917.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4937.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
好 謝謝陳青偉委員的發言也謝謝部長回應下一位我們請蘇青偉發言好 謝謝 謝謝主席我請部長跟資安署好 請部長跟林署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4943.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4967.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
所以今天排這個題目真的是很棒大家都很關心我們的勞工朋友那我就直接切入主題啦我要詢問你公使啦我們現在記者不管是文字記者不管是電子報的記者不管是攝影大家都很辛苦尤其在作業這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4971.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4986.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
Focus 焦點新聞的時候,就在那邊日以繼夜啊都要幾枚,幾枝都要排班,幾枝都要借,一枝要喝涼的,一枝要吃燒的但是就是在那裡等幾枚齁,請問這工時是怎麼省啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4991.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5018.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
報告委員,那有關工作時間的部分的話,它包括實際從事工作以及待命的時間,它都是屬於如果它有被受到僱主的拘束,必須要在那邊待命提供勞務的時間,也就是工作時間?僱主限制,所以那個僱主應該是電視台,或者是報社,是不是?或製作公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5021.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5027.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那演員啊 一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5041.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5064.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
演員跟其他的工作人員的話可能有一點差異因為演員的話他可能本身是一個自營作業的一個情況他是一個專業的人員他透過他的經紀人員跟製作單位簽訂了這樣的一個委任的相關契約所以不太一樣所以這個公使是兩方約定 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5065.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5087.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
兩邊約定就好了還是用承攬企業如果出事的話是要找誰負責這個部分的話演員通常會自己預約的狀況像這個那麼高的地方在攝影又塞進來那是最聽到的你們這一塊有沒有我覺得最容易出事的在這裡還有再來是司機 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5092.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5107.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
遊覽車的司機,像我這樣在動彎,在煞車,在遊覽啦欸,那個司機,大家都什麼時候算選辦時間,什麼時候沒算選辦時間有的說叫你遊覽車要請兩個司機,這司機怎麼算?說手放方向盤,叫做在選辦啊,離開,沒方向盤,車頂沒摸的人,這樣就算休息啊,車頂只有一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5119.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5127.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
就剩,就剩,就剩的上班時間所以都把你們都逛逛來,阿婆要逛到五碗,她也要逛逛來,她說你人不離開,我就車就熄火,我就可以離開方向盤這個都是問題,一再的發生糾紛,這個怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5139.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5155.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
報告委員,那有關遊覽車的這個狀況,那其實我們職安署也有訂定了一個相關遊覽車的檢查的一個專門的一個檢查的見識的方法那屬於工作時間的部分,他可以把它見識出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5156.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5177.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那如果是休息時間,那也有不同的態樣有的到一個定點,乘客去遊玩,那個時間就會進到勞工的休息時間所以有不同的態樣,那這個相關的檢查要點其實都有去釐清因為現在國民旅遊很多,幾乎每天都會發生,每天就在發生每天像我從東港出發,從屏東出發,路邊就停 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5182.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5201.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
就停車,阿婆阿拉什麼的就去,就出發啦都五六點,六七點就在集合啊在附近到沿岸九點、十點就回來我認為那手機也是很辛苦的,阿也一個手機所以這個都要很注意啦,因為我們勞工大家都很辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5202.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5211.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
要補充,如果出事,誰也要負責,這都像在拍專輯的,那都是公司嘛公司發到就發到就到,金門這張照片要靠沒辦法,像在攝影,塞在上面會發生意外 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5223.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5249.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
這個都是問題啊,這一塊是最...一般大公司、大行你不用擔心他啦他一定照顧你,台積電根本照顧不來台積電要點什麼幫你,你沒有跟他聊天他連你起床都要起床,每天要講時大的公司,大的上市、上櫃公司或者是法人公司根本不用你去擔心,最要擔心的就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5251.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5275.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
看不到,在腳握,他們每天,像我們記者朋友,我每次看到他們在那邊惱火啊,情緒洪漠,在那邊在等什麼?要Catch Play,這樣而已嘛,對不對?所以這個都很重要,不然你,你是,你勞工很辛苦,或是說你是,這一塊要很注意,非常重要,我覺得勞動節要注意的就是這一塊,我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5277.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5300.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
是我想剛剛委員其實提醒的包括我們的這個演藝人員尤其是藝術表演的工作者就表演工作者部分目前其實我們跟文化部那針對大家其實這些公使是不是要更進一步的這個的規範包括植栽的部分其實我們現在跟文化部有建立這個跨部會的討論然後真的這部分在強化對好 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5301.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5315.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那再來就是,我要讓你講一個,美國現在川普的,差不多,川普的就是一人泡麵,叫全世界都對他吃藥我做醫生就聽,幹,他都叫我們吃藥,他自己也不想要吃,一直都吃漢堡,喝可樂,我們都吃藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5322.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5339.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我們怎麼笑的好 還笑的就是馬斯克 馬斯克馬斯克還要提升多少錢 還要提升五千的美金還要去裁員 還要裁27萬個聯邦的員工真的裁了10萬人喔結果呢 他可以省1500億美金 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5350.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5360.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
結果現在BBC啊什麼就出來K他說,這人要把他遣散,要把他離職,要把他丟退,開一千三百多個美金。現在那天開沒人做,現在還在找新的員工去買。不定,這有效嗎?這要吃藥嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5375.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5398.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
你是醫生喔我不太適合去評論其他國家的政治人物這樣的問題像這種這樣大量解雇大量我們有可能做這種事情當然你在台灣的政治跟行政的環境我們確實不太可能做這樣的事情所以no comment |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5402.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5427.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我們不太方便評論其他國家的總統或政治人物好那最後一個問題這個災保法災保法災害保護法這變成法外的孤兒了那這個是這個RCA的問題現在尾巴還沒有收這個我在第八屆的時候就有說要處理了現在處理到最後是怎麼樣很多這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5432.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5433.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
有沒有,現在到 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5437.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5464.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
謝謝委員 我們長期跟法服基金會有協助他們訴訟有提供律師費 那他們要去抵押扣押財產需要擔保 我們勞動部也出去可以擔保一億的證明後續都是由律師團跟他們的自救會一起在訴訟當中有第一批的人已經贏了 後面還有第二批的人還在繼續訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5466.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5482.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
所以大部分都解決了?他們有分好幾批,現在主要是要扣他的財產扣誰的財產?阿溪的阿溪還有這間公司嗎?在國外的財產你可以去扣國外財產?他們在找有智修會他們在找 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5487.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5512.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
到國外打官司很貴捏請一個律師要七八百萬台幣捏一兩千萬都有捏所以有在追蹤嗎我想這個案子我們有在做後續的因為這種這個是好久了捏所以這個要諸如此類的勞動部要我一直在講就是說這個比較弱勢的家 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5516.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5520.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
這要時間派空姐,這要五六天就是你要照顧的不然你真的做得好,你就是好的不然啦那老闆說什麼,那你不用管啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5527.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5552.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那些小小的小孩子這樣甩就甩了,他們就很認真這樣啦跟便宜一樣嘛對不對最重要就是偏遠地區的醫療你要提升嘛你從那個牡丹鄉現在要打那個人造衛星的地方那個地方蓄海有一個病人生病要到恆春到東港96分鐘到不了 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5552.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5576.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
在台北市六分鐘可以做檢驗就到你想要的適當的醫療院所然後台北市的人他每一年的醫療費用我們是九千多億嘛平均兩千三百萬人一個人要四萬塊的一個人頭上就capitation就四萬塊在屏東在牡丹他們才要花兩萬幾塊而已他們台北市的人都花六萬幾塊這樣有辦法賺錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5581.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5603.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
你做執政者就是要把那裡照顧,要把那裡扭起來,那裡如果有平權,你就成功啦,其他都不可以,都這樣啦都會去,大家也去到水洋洋,那裡就你管,我去的人經濟又強,又有保險,什麼都有,來都要用最好的那邊的病人來都是要用健保金用保 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5606.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5621.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
反正站著又叫我拔白包反正站著沒人處理重疑叫我丟到外面我天天在做這種事情所以是不一樣的樣態所以每天這樣來來回回我的感觸都很深所以柏定你也算機長站著要照顧自己好不好謝謝委員的建議跟提醒 謝謝好 謝謝蘇慶文委員醫療專業的發言也謝謝部長的答詢下一位我們請邱智英委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5643.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5662.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
主席好,我們請洪部長請洪部長主委好部長好部長我請問一下我們今天內政委員會正在協商制定紀念日及節日實施條例的草案,您支持嗎?這個勞動節放假的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5666.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5692.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
蛤 哪一個勞動節 勞動節放假五一嘛對我想現在五一其實你個人支持嗎呃 你應該指的因為五一勞工現在其實已經放假對 我知道指的應該是五一統一放吧對對對那五一統一放我想行政院其實已經有說了我們目標在下個年度希望就能夠來實施這個五一的統一放所以你也是支持嗎當然那我再接一下我們台大剛剛我看陳昭之委員也有問這一題啦就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5696.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5713.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
他們進行勞動節的出勤意願他們叫員工來填單嘛那出勤表上原則上都是要上班根本看不到要補休還是要加班對不對就根本就沒有一個休假的一個問卷你覺得這個在勞動部的標準裡面算是合理的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5715.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5743.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
應該說其實我們有看了這個相關的書件書單那確實目前看如果按照這個書單來看的話他可能比較沒有辦法充分的讓老公朋友來表達他們的想法跟意願那部長那這個部分請你們再多加的注意好不好我們已經在4月28號已經有發函了然後就是發函給台北市政府那希望台北市政府真的這部分是應該去把它們理清楚然後給予相關的檢查好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5744.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5771.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那我再請教部長我們總統臺院長在4月22號開了綠燈要你們開始送解凍案那按照部長您在社群發的文我們看到我們勞動部還有所屬機關在4月23日下午2點50分到下午6點01分這短短191分鐘總共發出了75件的解凍的電子文件那平均不到3分鐘就有一份解凍報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5772.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5789.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那我就很納悶這有三個可能第一個可能也就是我認為最有可能就是說其實這些早就寫好了只是放著讓我們這一些你們這個政治議題的謠言素材都能夠累積差不多再送但是後來 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5791.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5817.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
這個因為最近被公務人員踢爆發現輿論扛不住了 昨天早上才開綠燈但是啦 你們不是先例文化部之前就有傳出內部的訊息很明確的就是先寫好壓著啦如果是這個那當然也就說明一件事情就是我們政府以達到政治目的為首要的目的說在乎人民的權益根本就把它放在一邊而已嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5818.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5838.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
但這是第一個可能那另外一個可能就是公務員加班趕件配合如果是這個我就要請教部長這個有沒有壓榨公務人員的這個嫌疑我問你再回答啦那最後一個就是濫魚充數濫血先訂位再說並向委員會施壓意思說解凍案我已經送了 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5839.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5863.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那報告這個內容如果委員覺得不行我們就開始要造謠就是說我們立委在阻擋這個解凍案如果是這樣的話我跟部長講就你們算盤還是打錯了那解凍案我們還是會專業的立委我們還是會照程序來審這個來審核啦那部長你覺得是哪一個好 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5864.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5892.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
跟邱委員說明實際的狀況都跟你剛剛講的三種情況是不同的那是什麼其實勞動部歷年來我們一直都是採用一案一文的方式來辦理解凍程序而且過去其實我們都是要求本部和相關的所屬的解凍案會在同一個日期裡面發文所以過去也都是大家同一天發文就是等到一聲令下沒有命令就不會發對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5893.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5909.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我跟委員說明過去就是要同一天發文那同一天發文的原因有幾個第一個是因為避免漏案的狀況第二個也希望能夠爭取跟確保到時候在立法院的時候是同一個時間來做審查因為你如果這個A案 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5909.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5937.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
一個月前發B案幾個月這個幾個後發其實零零散散的發很有可能到時候在立院的審查是分開的所以是希望到時候在立法院是這個同一時間來安排審查所以過去就是來要求是同一個日期的發文所以今年這個解凍計畫的發文的方式其實跟往年都是相同的第二個其實今年我想我也知道因為今年的預算的審查波折比較多 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5937.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5964.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
所以其實總統是到3月21號的時候才公布這個總預算那我們其實發文的時間大概在4月20幾號其實中間大概一個月左右的時間我想這個時間時程應該屬於正常的範圍我們並沒有拖延所以回到剛剛委員說的幾種狀況我跟委員說明我們其實沒有我們沒有刻意要壓人甚至政治上的盤算你不要再講了啦因為我們也聽懂了我的意思是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5966.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5982.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我知道我的意思是說我希望不要有太多的政治的因素在裡面沒有不要太多政治的操作在裡面但是我最不希望的就是看到你們這個壓榨公務人員或亂寫報告沒有這個事情那就下一題那112年的時候勞工的產檢價還有賠產價 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5986.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5995.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
還有賠產減價預算編不夠只編了4200萬元左右當年度實際申請的7178萬裡面大概少了3000萬左右當時發現4200萬可能在7月就會用完但是當時預算是沒有編購的卻沒有影響112年新手爸媽的權益申請還是非常的順利部長知道112年勞動部是怎麼做的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6013.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6035.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
當時就知道是當時是有跟舊寶做這個周轉但是這並不是一個常態的做法並不是過去有過這樣的周轉的案例未來就是想怎麼刪怎麼砍都沒有都是OK並不是這個狀況甚至那時候立法院也請我們檢討當時周轉的狀況所以周轉我們不能視為一個常態的正常的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6037.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6065.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
對 沒有出來 然後呢所以我們才認為並不是過去有發生過周轉所以現在怎麼刪怎麼動都是OK的 並不是這樣所以你們現在 你現在的意思就是說我們現在編的預算是想希望一次編購然後一次不要有不足的部分不要去跟其他的預算科目來借錢這樣的意思嗎預算的編類當然都是希望能夠編購很少會有希望預算編不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6067.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6078.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
或刻意變不夠啊對啊 112年就不夠啦對 當年是有那個狀況所以後來其實用周轉可是這個周轉其實包括立法院的預算中心也叫我們要檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6079.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6107.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
也叫我們要檢討所以我們不把因為可以周轉所以我預算想怎麼編就怎麼編想怎麼刪就怎麼刪想怎麼動就怎麼動並不是這樣子的就算過去有過這樣子的做法可是那個並不是該設定為的常態正常的常態所以我希望就是說你們一次把這個該用的錢因為你們的基礎是應該是以去年的這個金額來做一個衡量嘛對不對那我在想這個補助總共七天 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6108.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6133.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
第一天到第五天的這個薪資是我們僱主付的嘛然後第六第七是跟我們勞動部補助來申請那僱主當然是要先墊付對不對然後墊付完了之後才跟來請款然後原則上七天的錢僱主要給完新手爸媽以後才能夠跟勞動部來請款所以新手爸媽的錢這個僱主早就付了剩下就是應該是僱主跟我們勞動部的關係嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6136.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6153.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
對不對 是勞動部跟僱主的事情因為僱主已經先出了嘛跟委員說明這個不能這樣看因為僱主也是先知道第六天跟第七天勞動部會給予補助所以如果第六天跟第七天勞動部的薪資補助的錢卡住的話也很有可能會影響僱主 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6156.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6174.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
讓勞工去做產檢架或賠算檢架的意願所以這是聯動的關係並不是說他是來他會先付然後這邊勞工跟僱主之間的關係並不是這樣子看的他是先 僱主是先出嘛你講的意思當然是說你希望說這筆錢這筆預算都是放這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6176.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6203.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
錢是夠的嘛對不對你不希望說不夠的時候那我們在之前我們講到說我們今年編了八千九千八千五百四十萬嘛對不對然後你們把九千七百一十四萬的那個整個預算是九千七百一十四萬嘛刪了八百萬不是我們刪的是我不是說你刪的對我沒有出來我是我們刪的沒錯然後總共 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6205.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6214.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
剪下來的話我們大概還有七千多萬嘛對不對剪下來是不是還有八千多萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6224.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6248.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
七千七百四十萬跟委員說明原本九千多萬裡面有部分是剛才說的薪資補貼對 其他的部分沒錯那其他部署其實我們也要辦理很多性評你現在是把九千七百一十四萬然後三個八百萬放在統一欄裡面嘛那這個不管不是 還有包括兩千萬的凍結啊對 你都是放在統一欄嘛 對不對整個項目是九千多萬對 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6253.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6278.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那刪了八百萬動了兩千多萬這加起來就已經接近大概兩千七百多萬兩千八百萬還有大概七千萬左右所以這個扣掉的影響其實都超過原本我們編列八千多萬但是你產檢價相關的你凍結不能這樣算啊對不對因為你一定要執行到他當初我跟你講他為什麼會跟你凍結你知道嗎為什麼會凍結你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6283.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6304.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
這個我還可以再提醒對當初就是我幫你複習一下就是為什麼被凍結20%原因就是因為近五年違反勞基法的案件有3.5萬件勞動部沒有善盡監督的責任那裡面特別提出來就是說高工時的問題僱主延長勞工工時但是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6305.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6318.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
報復加班費再來就是職場性騷擾防範效果不彰長期都有變預算但是問題一堆他們是希望你們把這事情做好所以才會去凍結預算凍結不等於刪除你懂嗎凍結不等於刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6320.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6335.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
但是還是會在預算的執行上面產生的不確定性他只是不確定其實還是會有不確定性在以前我們以往的慣例裡面所有有凍結的預算如果都是照你這種邏輯的話那大家都不用做事 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6335.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6352.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
如果凍結就一定可以用的話我想從貴院的角度來說凍結就不用凍結凍結當然是在預算執行上面產生不確定性解凍的條件有好幾種希望你提出報告或者是說你已經執行到幾趴之後我們再來提凍結 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6353.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6368.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
對不對 凍結是事實凍結會對預算的執行產生不確定性也是事實我沒有講說它不是事實我現在講的是事實沒錯但是如果以往的我們的預算案所有的預算案的凍結案來講是不是因為你執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6370.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6389.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
的效果跟沒有達到預期的效果或者是說我們希望我們這個單位再提出新的一個辦法來改進這些你只要提報告出來一般都會解凍本人這個案子裡面他的解凍結的理由坦白說他講的也不是產檢架跟賠產檢架的執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6391.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6407.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
他講的是更其他的勞基法其他的事情這也是讓我們覺得困惑的事情說如果是我們在產檢架、賠產檢架過去有執行不妥當的地方那你在這個案子裡面做出指教跟批評要我們把產檢架跟賠產檢架的執行做得更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6408.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6426.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那這個當然我們會來接受因為產檢架、賠產檢架之間有問題可是你拉了一個別的事情來凍結產檢架跟賠產檢架讓新手的爸媽得到幫助的機會可能產生很多不確定性那你 這個案子你提解凍了沒有我們都提了 我們都送了好 那我們到時候再來審啦謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6432.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6452.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
好 委員會也在這邊做宣告我們等王正旭委員宣達結束之後才休息接下來請王育敏委員來做宣達謝謝主席 我們是不是有請洪部長來 請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6461.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6481.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
你們在去年113年的時候提出營造業最弱打擊年但是你們原本設定的目標是死亡人數控制在68人但實質上最弱致死的人數高達85人超出你們原來設定目標的25% |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6484.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6512.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
針對這件事情你們有沒有好好的檢討到底你們設定了打幾年結果越打幾死亡人數反而不降反升這個代表你們在執行過程其實有很多需要檢討的地方沒有到位另外一個我也讓你看一下我們跟日韓比較起來你看到我們的曲線圖台灣我們都在維持一個營造業最弱致死的比例都是一個高峰 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6513.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6535.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
都是維持在六成七左右都沒有下降但是我們鄰近的你看看像這個日本跟南韓南韓本來在2019年跟我們一樣是高峰但是人家有效的下降下來了那日本呢其實他們的公安做的比我們好他都維持在三成多到四成 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6535.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6560.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
新加坡表現更好新加坡的這個罪惡致死呢他一直都維持在不到三成這樣子一個情況就是有效的控制那臺灣我們這幾年其實都沒有明顯的一個改善反而有微幅的增加去年還增加了25%這代表我們在各項的防災的落實上面其實是做得不夠的你們的檢討是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6562.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6578.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
委員我先跟委員報告第一個確實我們去年並沒有達到68人的目標但是其實去年並不是增加還是有減少只是有稍微下降但是確實沒有達到目標跟目標比較起來就是超出25%沒有達到目標這件事情我們就該檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6582.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6608.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那就像剛剛委員說的其實我們也參考像新加坡或幾個國家他們的做法我們確實看到比方說在新加坡他們業主必須在這個公安事件裡面的責任是有很強要被苛責的那我們也看到了這些相關的狀況包括我們的工地的文化包括我們工地管理的狀況包括我們其實很多這營建業的工地它其實那個層層轉包的狀況其實很多責任到時候在分包的過程裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6609.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6629.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
其實就被切割甚至會有一點支離破碎的情況所以這一次我們提出治安法的修法其實也是在處理第一個讓業主是可以被究責的業主要做高包括其實很多新加坡大家都拿新加坡的案例來說他可能要去做很多的風險分析甚至要提撥一定的經費來做治安位的使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6630.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6648.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
在使用那第二個是針對這些層層轉包的狀況我們也在這次責任法修法裡面來要求你要有一個包商之間的在這個這個相關統合管理的這樣子的責任不會在層層轉包的過程裡面其實到處切割結果最後就發生讓大家覺得很 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6649.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6663.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
這個不幸的事件或者是責任難以追究的狀況你講的這兩項我通通都同意但是我要提醒勞動部的是那別忘了政府的角色在哪裡業者當然有角色但是我們看看我在去年其實就質詢日本的做法他的這個他在工地裡面他將這一個可視化 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6670.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6697.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
減災的這個工程他其實做得非常的徹底事實上你們去年在政府的角色你們說你們要去推動這個包括安全看的見風險看的見就是可視化的減災工程要去輔導要去推動但是你看你們執行下來的這個數字今天當然也有內政部在我不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任內政部作為這個營建單位的主管機關我覺得這件事情你們並沒有推到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6698.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6723.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
就是我記得我去年質詢的時候我說日本做得很好你說我們也有我們有打幾年然後我們要去推動結果你們執行下來目前看起來你們的這個就是找了幾個示範的工地那真正的這個申請通過數這個佔整個的比例來看的話他的比例還是低的你們真的有權利在推動嗎今天那個內政部的代表是誰副總工程師嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6725.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6744.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
蘇副總工程師是不是也應該一起在這件事情我也不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任像這個推動工地的安全這個是完全是可視化減災工程我覺得他可以收到立即性效果的那這個部分你們到底推的有沒有好好的推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6745.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6760.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
內政部有在協助勞動部這個部分嗎你們做了什麼是那謝謝委員那主要啦吼那營造業分成就是公共工程跟民間工程是那公共工程的這一塊啦吼那基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6761.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6786.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那有我們的所謂政府採購法還有相關的這個職安法這些來來律定那所以我想我們公共工程的這個工程主辦機關在職安的這一塊大概都非常的重視啦所以在所以相對的在民間工程的這一塊現在可能是我們還要去努力的目標啦那所以我們在這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6790.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6799.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
你們在可視化減災工程這個項目裡面包括這個安全看得見 風險看得見這整個預防墜落措施你們協助了什麼內政部協助了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6802.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6820.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這個部分我們有四份工地在做教育訓練的推廣那目前就是說有比較優良的廠商我們目前會後續都會做相關的觀摩但你們的次數看起來都很少這相較於現在這麼多的工地來講比例很少 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6821.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6835.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
你們是不是應該要想辦法跟各個營建公會還有就是找業者大家怎麼樣透過一個比較大的規模的實施而且去要求逐步去要求事實上你們這些示範我個人覺得很好就是說這個視覺化裡面就 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6837.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6857.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
產生了一個很好的警示的效果這個是可以提醒這個所有的勞工他在這個工地現場就是那個透過視覺上去做提醒這個也是日本人家做得很好所以他們在這個最弱的公安比例比我們更低但是我覺得台灣我們不要都只做半套就是說感覺人家很好然後呼了一個口號說最弱打幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6859.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6880.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
然後呢今年推動的力道有要更大嗎有要強化嗎這個部分在今天的報告坦白講我都沒有看到最弱打擊年這幾個字也已經消失了所以不要只是做半套喔這個去年喊一個口號有一個宣示結果今年又沒有繼續延續了今年也要繼續做嗎內政部跟勞動部也要繼續做嗎也要擴大推廣嗎我們後續會積極的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6886.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6915.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
來 部長回答 那這部請先回跟委員說明 第一個是我確實覺得怎麼樣讓這些該做的或對的事情要做得更到位然後包括案例更多 滲透率更高我覺得這部分我們願意來檢討參考其實委員的一些提醒來檢討但是就我們目前看到是說可能數字上面我們會再提供給委員有更新的數據 那你們可以直接告訴大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6916.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6934.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
再提供給委員可是我不會去說我們這已經做到很到位了或者我不會這樣去說所以我們還是願意來跟相關的其他的國家的經驗做更徹底的學習因為這一個其實為什麼那麼重要因為每一個墜落事件很多大概就是死亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6934.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6952.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
不是重傷就是死亡那個對一個整個家庭的衝擊其實是非常大的所以我希望這一塊你們要更用心另外一個我要問你們的就是你們職業安全訓練人數為什麼不升反降退回三年前的數字你可以看到有沒有接受職業訓練對於防災來講它還是產生一定的效果的那為什麼你們反而你們的量能是下降的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6957.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6972.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
去年是發生什麼事為什麼整體的數字反而無論是在這個各行業的安全衛生訓練總人數或是主管的部分都是呈現下降的趨勢跟委員報告其實整體的安全衛生教育訓練並沒有下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6974.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6992.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那這個數字有誤嗎還是你們沒有更新對 跟委員報告現在安全衛生教育的職類非常多它有將近60個職類那可能委員看到的是目前直到營造作業主管它是有上下在浮動依照這個需求所以你們沒有擴大嗎我的意思就是說如果你們是營建業墜落打幾年的話你們所有的包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6995.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7010.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
工地現場的安全這個應該要擴大你們的職業安全訓練的人數也應該是要擴大但是看起來並沒有這樣的一個趨勢我希望你們可以檢討另外一個就是有關於外籍移工職災人數他其實在營建業裡面也呈現這個人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7015.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7037.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
是增加的一個情況這樣的一個趨勢喔那這個部分呢你們現在有推一個這個移工的職安卡所以在這個營建業裡面我要問的是說你們營建業裡面的外籍移工他取得職安卡的比例是不是在營建業裡面因為他高風險他們是不是都有取得職安卡所以才進來從事這個營建業有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7040.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7062.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
跟委員報告確實這個移工的安全衛生教育訓練是我們的重點那現在我們的台灣指南卡的部分一年到目前為止大概有20萬人受訓那移工裡面大概有站在2萬多人那營建業裡面的移工他們有沒有都拿到指南卡我們目前是跟這個很多跨部會在合作希望達到說所有的移工都要拿到台灣指南卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7062.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7077.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
就我掌握到的數據現在這個移工從事營建業大概超過4萬那他拿到的比例是不是大概只有2萬8所以累積才2萬8所以代表還有1萬多人他其實是沒有接受你的訓練但我覺得你們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7078.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7096.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
職安卡是好的因為你們是用多國語言讓移工可以理解的語言然後告訴他職業安全方面的知識這個對於他們保障自身的安全我覺得是很有幫助的這個部分你們是不是可以盡快怎麼樣透過其他的方式讓這一些從事高風險的營建業的移工讓他們可以得到這樣的一個職業安全的知識 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7100.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7124.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
好我們當然這部分我覺得這是一個對的方向那我們怎麼樣更加碼的來進行包括資源的投入包括加速的來檢討這部分我們會盡快的來提出一個相關的計畫來擴大我覺得保護這些外籍移工來台灣工作他們的人身安全職業風險這些給他高度的保障我覺得這個是我們該做的事好不好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7131.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7133.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
好 謝謝主席 請我們洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7156.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7176.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
部長你好 大家都有談到營造業墜落打擊年 死亡人數要壓在68人以內最後你的墜落打擊年 去年一共有83名的工人墜落身亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7177.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7186.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
比你們原定目標68人還高出很多很多然後呢 從2014到2023年的10年之間一共奪走了995條人命 佔所有...抱歉 還沒 還沒 OK |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7203.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7228.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
就是歷年的這個墜落的植栽建樹奪走了這個995條人命佔所有營造業植栽死亡比例6到7成滋事體大那當然營造業是屬於這個高度的勞動密集還有兼具這個技術專業的產業工作環境是相當的複雜而且它的變異性非常的高在這種狀況裡面這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7232.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7254.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
發生率和嚴重度就植栽死亡或相較於其他的產業其實是相當嚴重所以今天大家都特別的提出來講那今天有人講到英國新加坡和日本大家都談到說他們一樣的產業營造業的墜落致死率大概是四成那台灣的致死率就是六七成 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7255.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7281.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
六七成那根據這個2024年這個墜落死亡的83人當中建築工程就有50人那你們自己也有統計你們自己也有統計83個去年死掉的83個裡面有71個罹難的勞工根本沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7283.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7306.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
包括建築工程 土木工程和修繕工程其中又以建築業的工人最多83個死亡 去年死了83個有71個罹難的人完全沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練這會是你們去年所謂的營造業的最弱打擊年嗎你們在開玩笑 口號 口號 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7312.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7331.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
你們說他墜落打幾年結果發現死掉的裡面九成沒有受過任何的職業安全訓練這不 你不覺得這很荒謬嗎部長會不會有一點太荒謬了確實現在有受過安全教育訓練的人數我覺得是有待提升的不是啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7332.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7343.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
你是最弱 防止最弱的打擊年你定一年是68個以內結果死了83個結果83個裡面有71個根本沒有受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練部長那我先問你喔你都不敢承認說這個問題很荒謬很離譜那我再問你如果斷定這個勞工已經受過教育訓練你們查核的機制是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7363.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7377.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
營造業的勞動災害這麼嚴重沒有受過任何這個教育訓練的離災的勞工比例超過九成結果40位的罹難者當中有三個 這個數字很誇張 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7384.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7396.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
顧主沒有要求勞工接受訓練就讓他們上工這不是擺明了直接把他們送到死神的身邊的意思嗎你們怎麼去斷定有沒有受過你們怎麼查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7397.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7424.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
跟委員報告委員這個數據應該是我們的職業災害調查的時候發現這個罹災勞工我們問他的僱主他到任的時候當天有沒有對他做三個小時到六個小時的安全衛生教育訓練絕對沒有剛剛委員提到那個數字就是檢察員問了僱主以後僱主沒辦法提出說他有對他做六小時的教育訓練對那個都是不幸事件罹災之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7426.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7433.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
阿但你平時是怎麼樣去確認因為我們的安慰法 職業安全與衛生法第32條就講僱主有實施這個安慰教育和訓練的責任喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7440.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7455.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那勞工有接受訓練的義務那我們的勞動部門行政部門到底是怎麼樣去確定而且你們是怎麼查核的沒有勞檢就沒有查核我們不用一條強制的強制回報的機制嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7459.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7470.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
部長 法治病就是這樣寫 僱主有責任 勞工有義務但都沒有人在做 死了以後才發現金本高小英雄都不在這裡訓練過你們也都知道這個問題 你在墜落打擊年還這麼荒謬 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7476.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7491.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
你是罪弱打擊年欸如果你沒有標榜去年是營造業的罪弱打擊年還不夠荒謬你都宣稱是防止罪弱的打擊年結果還是這麼的荒謬啊這個是這個政策是有效的嗎更不要講法律就在那裡所以這是一個契機啊保證現在完蛋了啦輸定時不知道沒辦法啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7504.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7527.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
這有沒有辦法變成一個查核的制度面的反省而且是強制要回報有沒有可能我們來研擬相關的機制那我們也會來提高坦白說我們也來提高那個因為其實包括有很多的工協會他其實也辦這些教育安全的講座坦白說他們也跟我們反映其實很多勞工參與的意願不高 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7528.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7536.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
勞工怎麼會有參與的意願要花自己的時間而且我們職業安全衛生法的責任是在雇主所以你剛剛回答就是錯誤了你在講勞工你推卸給勞工預防責任職責預防責任是雇主要使用雇主的時間而不是使用勞工的時間你這個觀念要好好的搞清楚我不是推卸給勞工不是啦你這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7554.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7565.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
觀念要搞清楚我剛剛那句話還沒講完我說他沒跟我反映勞工參與的意願就是他說他覺得他要花一天的時間坐在那個地方他想拿一天的時間去賺錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7567.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7570.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
這個我講錯了這一天就是僱主要給付工資然後勞工不用上工那六個小時要去上課然後他的僱主要給付工資你懂嗎委員我現在說的是說我們也在思考怎麼樣來提高相關的誘因 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7589.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7595.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
所以我的意思是說在這個狀況下我們也要來提高我們在思考怎麼提高讓勞工比較願意來參與這些安全訓練的誘因你為什麼一直在講讓勞工有意願真正沒有意願的是雇主雇主如果願意付薪水讓勞工去上課 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7614.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7642.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
勞工何樂而不為呢現在你沒有薪水叫勞工花自己的時間去上課當然不想上課重點在這裡是 耿委員報告確實是雇主的責任那我們在目前在部裡面這邊也在協助如果勞工真的沒有時間去外面上白天的六小時課程現在我們有數位的課程數位的學習課程我現在要問你有沒有薪水重點是有沒有薪水啦薪水啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7643.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7671.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
不要講那一些啦 有沒有薪水才是重點啦你叫他花勞工自己的時間還是要花僱主的時間幾戶薪水之後的時間這才是重點所以你們在這裡 我聽你們部長和署長的講話的方法好像聽起來就是勞工要花自己的時間花自己的 始終的時間就是金錢就花自己的錢 而這個跟我們職業安全率 我們不會花到勞工自己的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7672.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7675.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
只有時間就是金錢你沒有談雇主的給付工資的責任的話那你就是叫勞工自己買單了這當然是雇主的責任然後我們會來強化要求雇主進行這個責任所以第一個會來要求雇主進行這個責任你們的訓練規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7693.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7703.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
職業安全衛生教育的訓練規則你們主要針對擔任不同工作的勞工依其工作性質接受在職訓練但你們在勞動及職業安全衛生的研究紀刊的今年的3月號你們自己的報導 紀刊裡面就報導教育訓練對營造業卻沒有最弱或高價作業單獨設立專門的實務訓練課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7718.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7722.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
訓練規則針對營造業、安全與衛生業務主管甲乙和丙種的罪惡危害危害的預防管理實務訓練只有規範2到3個小時而且這個訓練是給安慰就是安慰業務主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7736.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7742.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
沒有給落實到每一個上工的勞工沒有規範實務訓練的內容對整體的最弱預防教學品質有很大的落差所以現在講你們有對主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7751.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7771.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
事業單位的主管有這個課程上的訓練但是沒有針對勞工墜落預防有直接的訓練規定且課程時數也不夠更沒有實務的訓練課程這個是你們的紀刊自己寫的那我現在現在我剛剛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7775.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7793.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
你可不可以再具體回答我們勞工去上課算誰的成本算誰的我們當然希望雇主來付啊那就好了你希望雇主怎麼個付法第一個是我們會來加強要求第二個是剛剛就像委員說的如果是加強要求我們希望每一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7796.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7809.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
僱主業者都能夠落實安慰法第32條的僱主有責任勞工有義務接受教育訓練不要忘了83個死亡裡面有71個沒有任何的教育訓練死亡的 更不要講其他重傷重災的 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7815.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7837.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
是委員剛剛提到的那個課程裡面有一些速課部分我們在未來課程上的檢討設計上可以要求我今天都指出了制度面的問題你們要讓確保每一個上工的都受過教育訓練特別是營造業的最弱打擊年成為口號之後那你們我沒有要求你更多的你至少這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7838.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7850.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
要百分之百做得到吧那其實不好意思再講其實不只是營造業高空墜落還有另外一個產業另外一個行業哪一個行業你知道嗎其實我也總諮詢過你們就只想到營造業冷氣空調安裝業冷氣空調計施案安裝工人一樣比營造業的工人還更命懸一線 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7868.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7887.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
你知道在2010到2022年的9月之間也是差不多10出頭年冷氣師傅裝設或者是修繕裡面有40位是因為裝設和修繕冷氣死亡40個死亡裡面有27個是高空墜落死亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7888.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7900.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
所以大概冷氣裝修師傅死亡比例裡面有67%都是要去幫人家裝冷氣 修冷氣 高空 墜落 滾落造成失能和死亡署長你知道嗎跟委員報告這一塊我們也非常重視也很重視 那你們做了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7909.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7913.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
我們有跟那個內政部這邊國土署針對在建築基礎規範裡面在源頭裡面那個不要再講因為那是我去總質詢要求的新的建築物的建築這個規範要有一個裝設冷氣的空間讓維修和裝設有安全的環境但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7930.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7938.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我 你沒有講的 我也沒有主動在提的那舊的建築物咧 現在舊的建築占99%咧那是新設的建築 新蓋的建築有受到因為我們額總質詢之後的建築規範了可是現在所有安裝冷氣的九成九 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7951.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7961.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
都是舊的沒有規範的而現在還在命懸一線的這一些冷氣空調祭司命懸一線在那裡高空墜落死亡率這麼高的那你們做了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7966.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7993.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
你們做了什麼預防跟委員說委員剛剛其實提了很多點我們其實都覺得確實有檢討我講了你們才想到而且都是關於如何真正的能夠落實所以我會來要求我們的治安署對於落實的強制的機制我覺得可以檢討連冷氣裝設空調裝設你們很難為什麼你知道嗎很難為什麼你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7996.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7999.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
你們不知道因為很多都是自營業者是啊我說你就知道我跟你們說你都沒在想自營業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8007.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8025.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那你們要怎麼樣去落實他有什麼動機要去教養訓練那你們要刻意他自己或是他的雇主在維修或裝修的時候就有的沒有任何卡囉整疊破空中的他要怎麼去修理你知道他們多可憐嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8027.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8038.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
委員我這邊說就是說剛剛其實講的這些事情都是落實如何落實甚至要不要有強制機制的問題我覺得這部分我們會來請請治安署來針對強制的機制來進行規劃跟研擬 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8042.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8062.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
要專案去處理 我現在跟你講的意思是說現在忘記到了 冷氣裝修的忘記到了很多人是說這麼危險 看了很多人就說我不做了但也很多人是非做不可然後他只能說我要多加三千 五千或八千的這個危險佳績各位啊 部長啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8064.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8070.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
交了五千八千給你去做那個高空沒有任何防護然後危險度極高的這個裝飾或者是維修就買斷了這一個責任然後就把這個風險默默的吞下去五千塊八千塊給你叫你去維修裝飾半空中沒有任何卡路沒有任何安全防護措施的 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8092.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8098.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
這個 冷氣 空調 你願意嗎?署長你願意嗎?部長你願意嗎?可是他沒有辦法欸 他必須要欸沒有安全帶 沒有扣環 沒有錨定點其他也必須要一些安全設施預防啊可是沒有錨定點 沒有安全扣環沒有任何的可以保護他可掛飾的這個錨定點 通通都沒有欸怎麼辦? |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8117.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8130.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
你要說一個你才去想到說一個你才去想到連署長都不知道你就想到我質詢總質詢說要求新蓋的建築物要有一個裝設的空間那是新的 那舊的怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8132.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8156.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
通通都沒有那我再跟你講這個問題很嚴重我再講回來高空墜落和建築業去年的聖誕節台北市一個搭建跨年舞台的男性工作人員從20米高的七樓層高的鷹架上摔落馬上當場死亡勞檢調查說沒有確實佩戴安全帶僱主也沒有設立安全網這種狀況很離譜 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8159.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8170.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
依據我們的職業安全衛生設施規則兩公尺以上就必須要安全防墜落的這個措施了可是都沒有本規則還是過足 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8173.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8194.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
這個職業安全設施規則還是讓僱主要負起勞工安全設備及措施的最低標準如果僱主連最低標準都不願意做 都沒有做你還能奢望僱主改善他的其他的作業場所然後去預防勞工發生職災嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8198.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8209.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
所以我們剛剛看到工地外的篱笆印著安全第一的口號但是僱主通通都沒有落實這個確保勞工遵守安全規則的責任僱主 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8212.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8231.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
雇主也有責任雇主有預防責任但是勞工也有遵守的責任然後在這種狀況管理有時候勞工的這個安全意識薄弱的話未圖方便有時候也沒有依照安全程序進行作業然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8232.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8243.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
管理人員沒有盡到監督的責任沒有監督要求這個勞工遵守正確安全的步驟所以意外總是會來臨那我現在要講這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8246.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8271.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
很多從事營建工作的勞工有時候都會按照自己的意識執行作業而且不知道這種施工方法具有發生職災的風險很高發生職災的原因有時候是因為設備或環境處於不安全的狀況有時候是沒有顧主的預防該有的設施設備但是其中一部分是勞工也有很大一部分是沒有安全的這個職災預防的意識這個就說明了 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8275.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8288.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
教育訓練多麼重要而剛好恰巧的政府對於要上工就要教育訓練是相對的頗為的輕忽啦那我現在講說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8290.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8306.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
其實歷年的職災案例分析發生墜落事故的原因和因素發生的情境都具有高度的相似性大家高空墜落大家的管理都一樣像是施工架、水平支撐、模板支撐、鋼構作業及電梯景料 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8307.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8330.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
口的作業其中造成這個關鍵的墜落災害的原因可能包含這些架構配置不當本體防護不足或沒有安全的措施而這些防護措施的性能和強度嚴重不足那我接下來要講還有一個就是工人流轉在不同的工地這個營造業最明顯的典型就是流動率高承攬外包層層轉移 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8335.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8352.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
然後不斷一層又一層的分包下去外包的生態也讓他們的權益和安全也在層層外包之下被轉嫁了而且都是工地層層轉包下的吸收品而建築業就是層層轉包一層又一層那我們都知道風險就是這樣的被移轉很多時候我們安慰法的確有講到 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8362.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8383.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
即便那一轉他的補償責任還在但是他的賠償責任也在他也具有跟最終雇主的責任一樣但是因為沒有刑責沒有任何的刑責所以工地最有資本最雄厚的那個起造單位那個營造單位其實他們也不太重視雖然有 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8385.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8405.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
有賠償和補償的連帶責任 但是不一定會害怕因為不一定會發生 僥倖的心態在這種狀況所以啊 有時候就付一點錢但是呢 我們意思是說 這個問題 知識體大那我現在要跟你講喔 有時候 就是你看一下這個圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8408.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8435.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
你覺得工地夥伴安全第一其實我很不忍心對勞工這樣子指出他們的問題但是真的是中午休息太熱了而且很多工地的福利社聽說在工地附近的便利商店他們的一餐就是這樣子買了啤酒配他的便當就這樣子喝然後一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8436.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8450.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
其實我很不願意說你要去查可是喝了酒上工然後管理監督人員勞工沒有安全意識的概念管理監督人員也不管這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8452.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8472.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那可是這有沒有影響 這有沒有影響所以是不是顯示 我不願意苛責於勞工啊就是說營造廠商的工地安全的管理的確存在著很多可以改進的空間那怎麼去解決勞工安全意識不足的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8473.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8492.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
如果雇主 你在乎重視作業安全如果你雇主 你在乎職災的預防那會放任你的勞工這樣子做 中午就喝酒喝完酒就上工 然後到高空上作業然後讓公安事故 職災的風險就這樣子一直提高上去嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8496.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8518.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
部長你對於這個照片你有什麼感想這是普遍的狀況這不是特例你到立法院去附近中午休息就是這樣子普遍的狀況隨便拍都有部長你做何感想這當然看起來是安全意識這當然是安全意識是有待加強的有待加強雇主有責任管理階層也有責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8519.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8544.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
如果雇主真的在乎 那勞工沒有安全意識難道不應該給他們好的教育 安全教育和訓練嗎如果政府做不到 然後政府也管不了然後失能死亡的比例還是這麼高那我就建議我們比照新加坡來 新加坡的模式來放給大家看它有一個SNAP SAFE |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8546.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8556.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
檢舉挽救生命 你看他們的官方的網頁它是一個報告平台舉報不安全的工作場所行為可以挽救生命你剛才那個好 大家播放一下我現在它從2021年起每年都會推行這個全國性的工作場所的安全衛生運動你給它簡單快速的 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8576.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8595.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
1.5倍你知不知你能够简单报告职业侮辱通过职业侮辱网站?不仰赖政府!为了开始,请到这个链接,或搜索这个QR码,你可以报告各种各样的问题,例如职业侮辱罚,职业安全和健康罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚, |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8602.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8607.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
例如,如果您遇到一个不安全的职业案,您可以在这里报告,选择职业安全和健康犯罪或缺陷。 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8609.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8630.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
您也可以通过这条链接直接到同一页报告工作安全和健康问题。什么是工作安全和健康问题?一个不安全的工作室是当一个职员在工作中执行一个任务,对他们的健康或安全有影响,或是当工作室的状况有影响。这可以包括不被执行安全管理的计划,缺乏个人保护装备,或是家庭保护引致的缺陷。 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8634.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8639.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
好 沒關係好了這個待會兒大家要上網看好 我這要講就是說新加坡政府有心要作為所以他們在2024年的你們在高宮墜落房打擊年人家也在做回報救命運動然後他要雇主勞工和人民一起來回報 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8657.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8669.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
雇主有什麼責任 雇主要建立內部通報以預防事故發生要賦予勞工大聲可以講出不安全情況的權利當勞工報告不安全情況時 要立即減輕風險要表彰回報的勞工啊部長你知道 其實我們在法律上早就有了就是這個概念 這個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8682.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8709.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
勞工我現在講是僱主責任接下來勞工責任當勞工發現不安全的情況時應採取暫停拍照然後回報的動作向僱主或工會報告不安全的狀況勞工就可以直接使用剛剛講SnapSafe的網站隨時上傳不安全的狀況只需要填寫說明上傳照片及基本資料就可以完成上傳甚至也有參考虛驚事件的報告指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8710.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8718.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那我要講這個 這個跟我們的安慰法哪一個概念也有我們其實在母法上也有退避權 退避權 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8721.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8742.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我們連法律工具都有但是我們就缺少政府一個這種全民一起來真的確實要打擊植栽降低植栽風險的決心那他不是雇主勞工欸新加坡連民眾都可以回報救命運動當中人民要扮演重要的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8743.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8768.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
人民發現生活周邊出現不安全的狀況時也可以使用SnapSafe的網站上自己上傳照片那說明為職災預防 每個人都盡一己之力然後也可以下載海報這個張貼與工作場所鼓勵更多人參加回報救命運動所以新加坡是這樣子在職災發生前我們都知道職災啊預防更勝於事後的補償 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8770.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8789.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
所以在發生前要及時上傳 及時處理新加坡政府是用這樣的決心破例 這樣防圍杜鑒人家建立起來 降低吃災的決心和真正的作為而且真的有成效而台灣的政府做什麼我現在講 如果政府做不到 那你就給我們一個網頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8791.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8814.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
讓雇主也來 勞工也來 全民大家一起來 降低我們的植栽發生率啦所以真正的就是不安全回報全民運動這才是真正的重點啦 保長你感覺到嗎有辦法嗎 保長可以評估一下嗎好 來評估一下 評估一下 只是評估一下 我還沒再問你一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8815.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8819.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
評估完之後一個月的回報這樣就好蔣萬安市長他說以後這個台北市公安那個高空墜落很多所以他在公安都的匯報說以後墜落發生的時候工地至少停工半個月或一個月而且要透過事故註記沒有所謂改善就馬上復工的你對這個事情他把處罰強度增強 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8839.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8857.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
沒有書面送報告就可以復工的沒有改善後就立刻復工的而且要停工至少半個月一個月你覺得呢你對他這種處罰強度的增強有什麼看法跟文說明其實對於停工其實沒有我跟書裡面說了 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8859.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8874.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
該停工的尤其是過去紀錄上面這個前科雷我再講這個我再問你說他把強度拉高了而且依照你們的停工辦法只要改善簡送書面報告就可以復工你覺得這麼easy嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8876.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8905.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
如果有死亡案件可以檢送書面報告就復工嗎如果有死亡案件的話那這樣子就改善就可以馬上復工嗎當台北市地方政府宣示你如果有我就一律半個月一個月才准復工看你有辦法安裝看你有這個關係要跟政府拚嗎這樣子的話你有什麼看法我可以再問你以往我們這種死亡案件從停工到復工平均時間多長 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8907.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8934.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
跟委員報告我們最近也在檢討這個停復工的要點如果是嚴重性的一個重大災害不是說半個月或一個月復工是整體改善甚至經過三四次的審查才會讓他復工那你都沒有書面嗎你要把書面審查如果有死亡案件書面審查就可以這個要件拿掉然後我問你過去都是停多久平均一個死亡案件都停復工這樣都停多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8935.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8948.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
你不要講得這麼好聽啦我們是不是在提供一個數據因為不同的情節因為有到火災爆炸有的是墜落所以這個部分可能我們要提供數據好 那你就把詳細資料簡附給我們看一下好 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長接下來請王振旭委員來做詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8962.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8968.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
好 謝謝主席我們有請洪部長還有請質安署林署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8974.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8999.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
黃偉好部長好我想今天真的是很沉痛的一個主題即使明天是五一勞動節我們除了祝福所有勞工朋友跟他的家人都能夠平安幸福以外今天這個主題真的是很令人沉痛尤其是在高空墜落的事故的部分那個都是一個喪可是從數據來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9002.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9022.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我們每一年就有那麼多的家庭變成一個永恆的沉痛永恆的心痛所以真的我想今天的委員們都非常非常的期待未來如何能夠減少這樣的事故的發生所以今天就根據三個主題來跟部長還有署長來討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9025.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9043.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
其實植栽一直都是大家非常關心的議題所以在這個過程裡面預防還有責任的釐清是很重要的那我們也知道說在過去這麼多年來所發生的這個植栽的這個死亡人數其實是讓我們很心驚膽跳 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9045.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9071.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
那很多都屬於複合式的災害除了這個高峰墜落過程裡面其實很多都是複合式的災害那近期也做了很多檢討包括今天的檢討裡面也認為包括可能原因有工程設計為考量施工安全風險之下所造成的問題那工程安慰資源投入不足還有工程平行分包缺乏統合管理機制等等這個所造成的一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9072.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9095.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
那包括在前一段時間全年的台中大肚倉儲的火災案這個就是很典型的一個屬於複合性的災害的問題那最後結果反而是被起訴的對象不包括全年或者是負責工程的廠商反而是派駐在現場的空調配管工程人員跟員工被起訴受到影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9096.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9119.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
所以前署長才會感嘆說未來就是誰創造風險誰就要負責管理請問一下部長未來勞動部要如何讓企業主還有營造廠都能夠被克制並確實負擔起管理跟預防職災的責任雖然已經有過那麼多的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9120.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9127.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
跟你要求要做這方面的處理那可不可以請部長在針對這樣的狀況再進一步說明跟網友說明我們確實這段時間其實也檢討確實很多我們看到的重大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9137.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9158.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這個職安或公安的事件裡面很難去苛責業主的責任所以這一次其實也是在我們的法規的修訂裡面把業主的責任其實給放進去一個是業主的責任那業主尤其他該擔負起包括其實在一開始的時候就要做相關的風險評估按照風險評估來做施工的執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9159.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9186.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
第二個是其實我們也看到很多這個整個大家其實都提到乘風轉包的問題乘風轉包他的風險跟他的責任就可能會被一直的轉嫁或者是切割最後反而會發生很難救責的狀況或者是這整個工地的這個責任是一個散亂的這個狀況所以我們這次修法裡面也放入要求這個法規裡面直接要要求我們其中一個這個承包商要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9187.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9213.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
統合性這個相關的統合的這個責任必須要指定一個廠商來做這件事情的部分那這也是在回應我們目前在工地的現場看到的這些工地的文化或者是他們的這個樣態其實給予相關的制度修訂的回應所以未來有沒有機會針對某一些特定的剛有提到一些民間工程或者是屬於政府部門的工程 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9214.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9242.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
在風險上如果有機會先了解它的這個風險是非常高的話那有沒有機會先去做臨場的管理這部分不知道這個其實就是我們在講的源頭的管理的部分就是業主在一開始源頭的時候他就要在做這個風險相關的掌握甚至相關的風險的評估設計跟管理這其實就是我們在說的在源頭管理他就必須要科與他做這個責任如果沒有做那就要開罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9244.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9269.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
因為我們了解現在的建築物越來越在設計上的風格為了要凸顯它的特色所以我們從它的設計圖就可以理解它的風險尤其是在高空最多的風險可能是非常非常高的這部分我的意思就是說有沒有機會當它開始有這個設計圖出現的時候其實相關單位就能夠掌握到未來這個風險極高之下是不是原來的極淺 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9270.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9297.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
這是我們剛才說的他其實在規劃設計的階段他就要在一開始的時候就把風險的評估跟風險管理的方式他就要把它給做出來他有責任必須做出來也不能再迴避這件事情OK好那就麻煩這部分要再加強OK謝謝那第二部分就要跟部長來討論一下這個強化勞工健康服務的部分因為我來自醫界所以一直對於這個勞工的這個健康服務其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9298.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9321.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
一直都有很深的感受那在去年6月我們有看到這個職業安全衛生研究所也出了一份報告不知道部長有沒有機會去了解這份報告這份報告主要是針對於從2011年開始針對300人的員工以上的這個部分做實施臨場健康服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9322.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9340.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
以來把這個十幾年來的這些經驗匯整以後針對於在這個過程裡面勞工健康服務的效益做一個評估那這個評估裡面也特別在訪談了145家比較具有特別危害健康作業職場的這些勞工的這個服務的人員包括醫護跟職安 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9345.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9362.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
職安衛的這些同仁做了相關的這個了解跟調查那其中他有整理出了九點的政策建議那包括有五大點就是第一個就是要調整定這個成效的指標第二個就是要修正勞工健康保護的規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9363.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9384.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
第三個是記錄表單讓他更彈性簡易第四個就是要依照行行業的這個特性來提供健康指引那第五點就是提供充分的訓練資源來強化溝通跟推廣訓練等等那這部分很具體的是針對於未來比較大型的這個具有多的勞工同仁的 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9385.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9398.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
健康服務的過程裡面希望有更好的一個政策上的推行那這部分不知道部長有沒有其他的建議或者是有沒有可能在一個月裡面給我們一份這個政策建議可行性的報告平息 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9400.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9425.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
包圍沒有問題這部分我們已經努力在做這個部分就麻煩對真的健康服務的部分可以再加強好那第三個部分就是要跟部長討論一下鼓勵企業來提供勞工癌篩還有這個癌後的後續協助因為我們知道其實很多勞工朋友他們有一個癌症是跟他們的職業 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9427.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9448.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
跟他們的生活習慣是有非常大的關係就是口腔癌那針對於我們這個剛剛所提到那份報告裡面就是健康服務裡面是不是能夠更加強尤其是像跟這個勞工朋友比較有相關的這個口腔癌的服務因為我們知道其實很多的勞工朋友他們不是不願意去篩檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9449.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9463.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
他們很擔心篩檢以後萬一被診斷癌症造成的困擾干擾還有他們未來的這個就業等等會不會受到很多影響因為我們知道其實口腔癌的病人他 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9464.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9486.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
目前的治療之下呢他其實可以提供有好的一個癒後將近有五成到六成的這些勞工朋友其實他的口腔還經過處理就可以改善了可是當然也有一些是比較晚期的病人平均之下預期有一個診斷口腔癌的這個勞工他的這個平均壽命是13.7年 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9487.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9515.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那他的健康餘命是12.4年可是相較於相較於沒有癌症的這個病人他們損失了15.1的平均這個健康餘命還有16.4年的這個不健康餘命的這個影響就是說他受到影響其實對這個家庭對社會對工作來講都是非常非常多的這個造成了後果所以我剛所提到就是為什麼他們有時候對篩檢是有疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9517.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9537.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
因為他們擔心一旦確診以後後續的治療對於他的工作的影響那如果他後來是把癌症治好了他回到職場所受到的影響等等會讓他們造成一些擔心這部分可能也要麻煩部裡面看有沒有更好的政策來加強在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9539.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9556.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
健康服務的同時能夠也讓這些勞工們知道他們在這部分如何透過我們的雇主能夠來強化有關於這個健康服務的模式我們也知道現在賴總統在打造這個健康台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9557.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9583.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
但是這個健康台灣其實就是很希望所有的國民都能夠得到很好的健康的服務的模式那我們剛才提到根據113年那份的報告裡面我們期待健康服務的內涵應該不只是安全或者是合法而已我們希望把這個健康服務的概念能夠真的帶入到在這個健康台灣政策之下的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9584.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9600.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
希望能夠有在政策上可以具體來呈現的所以最後我們是希望說能夠在整體的政策上也透過勞動部這邊的努力將健康台灣的政策目標納入到企業永續的指標裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9602.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9628.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
那第二個部分就是要強化鼓勵企業來提供罹癌員工的協助協助方案剛剛有提到一些口腔癌所造成的困境還有強化這個提供癌症康復員工續聘跟工作調整還有透過勞工健康服務機制來鼓勵勞工癌篩的這些希望能夠納為這個政策性的內涵而不是說我們在做這個健康服務的過程裡面只是合法 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9629.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9655.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
有在做這個運作而言那這部分可不可以請勞動部也能夠在一個月裡面能夠具體的提出這個推動的這個書面報告給我們參考好沒問題那就麻煩這個部長還有同仁加油謝謝謝謝好謝謝王委員謝謝部長現在休息十分鐘沒有辦法宣布啊王委員說了休息啊對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10318.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10331.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我們繼續開會 我們麻煩下一位劉建國委員召委發言好 謝謝主席 有請部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10333.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10358.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
部長好部長辛苦了明天就是五一勞動節也是部長就任以來第一個勞動節那部長還記得接下部長一職的時候那卓院長有給你三個主要的任務部長還記得吧記得就這三個嘛我就不再贅述了那請問有達標嗎那這幾個月我們很努力希望往這些方向去邁進你沒有回答我有沒有達標 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10359.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10364.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
我當然知道你很努力,我又沒有說你不努力我們盡力做 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10366.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10392.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
好啦第一點就是紅部長接任的首要任務就在後續處理上我想部長也展現了十足的行動力跟決心嘛穩定這整個勞動部這我必須要肯定啦但第二點勞動部是為了健全友善合理的持長讓所有的勞工在安全的環境中為國家為人民為社會來做做全力的這樣的一個付出嘛那我就要請部長來看這個相關的數據重大旨在什麼人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10398.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10419.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
108就316然後109 313其實每每講到這個數據其實坦白講是很沉痛那10278這個是疫情的時候然後11就開始在往上提升但是那113又降下來287那114年截至目前為止4月是70個人你們有講說應該會比往前年度更少有把握嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10423.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10450.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
比前一年會更少有把握嗎因為當然今年到現在到4月坦白說我們不會用把握這兩個字我覺得我們會盡我們所能努力做但是都不讓你看喔我想這一個每一個死亡人數都代表一個一個讓人家非常傷心難過的一個家庭然後龍東牧師去年把把這個營造營造業 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10452.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10458.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
墜落打擊年啦齁那目標是比往前一年要減少30%的這個墜落之災然後結果到去年9月光營造業就墜落66人齁也是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10467.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10483.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
全年度更高達148人整個打擊計畫是提早破功那當時何前部長還講說要達到這個目標確實有困難你們自己定目標你們自己定了叫做營造業最落打幾年結果跟我講說困難對外講說困難我為什麼要提醒這個事情你們還有另外一個目標2030年植栽要減半對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10496.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10520.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
會不會現在提早破工會不會就像何前部長講的現在要提早跟我講說困難我們這些目標其實坦白說都是當初定定是要我覺得包括是定一個我覺得希望能夠更符合而且更進步的目標那2030的這個目標我想我們現在是我還是會說我們必須全力以赴 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10521.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10549.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我知道剛剛你也答詢說當然目標除此之外還有好的方法嘛對不對那這個方法非常重要但是你們的方法不能只有剩下只有修治安法嘛是因為剛剛很多委員的垂詢嘛很多的面向但是我坦白講我看部長跟署長還有甚至於那個國土署的副總統在答詢的時候好像公共工程比較可以去去test到那其他四部門的幾乎根本就是無從著力嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10550.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10568.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
那等於把這個目標整體掛在一起這邊完全沒有辦法有任何的有效方法去做處理甚至連方法都沒有的情況之下那你當然不可能去達標啊你不可能去達標怎麼會設定2030年要減半這就很矛盾嘛 很衝突嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10569.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10595.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
而且我剛剛在廁所遇到署長跟署長講說這個報告是誰寫的你們來彎布這個報告署長跟我講說是他寫的然後整體focus還是在營造這個換床當然有講說整體比例要有個2%等等等數之類但是那個樣態真的非常多我們雲林連飼料場就可以墜落然後死傷嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10598.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10619.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
不只啦 剛剛林委員特別提到這個冷氣的施工人員也不只啊 也廣告業者啊反正怎麼講 那個樣態面向是非常非常多當然你可以講比例啦營造業的比例 建商的比例是最高的 是沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10620.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10641.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
但是不能因為這個最高的其他的我們就忽略嘛各位可以看你把這個主要的這個這個類別可以把它降下來當然有效的會去呈現在你想要達到這個目標啦這也是也不為過嘛這是方式之一嘛但是你看喔我們113年可以降到287是什麼原因就你們要知道啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10646.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10650.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
主要是什麼原因?回顧剛才那個表格就重大指摘什麼人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10653.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10680.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
跟委員報告我們不會只有說這個在職安法修法前我們還是有很多這個減災的策略在推動包括加強勞檢或是說這個辦理相關的第一場所有的我知道啦 知道這個都有在做啦但是做得到不到位嘛是不是有需要再做快速的調整嘛是不是要擴及的面向擴及的職業列別是不是要再增加嘛 對不對這剛才部長也都有答覆嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10680.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10684.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
那我先請教醫生為什麼你們可以撿到287?主要原因是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10686.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10711.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
其實還有一部分就勞檢以外其實各部會一起幫忙也是蠻重要的剛剛委員有提到我們不管是交通部、內政部、經濟部這個部分我們都一起來合作怎麼樣去大家所管的事業裡面去將要求這個防稅的一個處理所以這個部分跟委員報我們的面向應該是蠻多面向的那至於說287人的部分應該是營造業有檢疫部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10714.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10728.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
為什麼營造業會緊一部分主要的原因剛剛我也知道我們在去年就是營造業的最多打擊年所以我們是動用的非常多是營造業的最多打擊還是中央政策的打防你看啦自己有把這個目標降下來不曉得什麼原因降下來我就覺得會 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10744.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10758.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
這樣你們的方法是很自己都沒有把握的方法然後去形成一個方法然後再請教你為什麼可以降下來又講的不是很精準你們這個方法顯然就不是還有一個好方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10758.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10773.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
跟我們說明剛才我同意我們剛才說就是說這不是只是修法的問題因為土法不足以自行所以我們其實可能也看到這裡面會有很多是法規的落實的程度的問題那這也包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10774.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10803.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
比方說這段時間跟署裡面我們一直在檢討跟討論剛才說停復工的這個做法裡面是不是有更多如果未來要復工的話他必須要擔負起更多比方說他是一個系統性的改善所以這是在做法上面如果被停工的廠商他就要擔負起更高的更高的成本才能夠復工的話他也會更加的小心我們也在這個方面去做檢討所以幾個部分我們都在檢討希望能夠更加的落實這些相關的法 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10805.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10831.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
你答覆我這是剛剛李委員問的另外一個問題啦當然聽吳公的樣態狀況是不一啦不可能說去取得一個平均值嘛所以剛剛你沒辦法回答我也能夠理解嘛我現在講的說你113可以降到287主要原因是什麼你這樣答覆我 雖然這樣答覆我是很沒有把握的答覆我也是自己沒有去掌握嘛去年雖然沒有這個疫情啦但央行有祭出這個史上最狠的打王政策啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10833.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10855.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
讓房地產的市場又有了改變嘛可以看一下然後今年狀況也沒有改變首屆在全國的新屋推有327萬件是歷史的新低啦其實今年4月齁 職災死亡人數是70人職災人數目前是有樂觀推估啦今年職災死亡人數有機會再減少這是你們的資料喔但是我現在最擔心的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10856.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10874.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
等到黃石業回溫加班趕工的亂象會不會再全部出現就跟在111年的時候又到最高的這樣的一個是不是最高我也不曉得所以當建商業者只顧著把落後的進度再補回來會不會又牢計法、治安法又放在一邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10875.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10899.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
那職災人數就再往上回升這確實是我們要非常小心的一個因素所以部長這個絕對要去考量到我們勞工部部長估計今年的職災人數應該會再下降那如果真的是明年的市場上的回溫你要如何防護相關的業者把勞工的命當成耗材再使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10899.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10917.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
根本說明我們當然不會把勞工的命當耗材但是我們確實有觀察我是說你老實說相關的一些業者嘛因為他要刮工嘛 手工嘛對 沒錯我們確實看到當業者越趕工的狀況的時候其實他的相關的這個安全衛生其實做的就會這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10918.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10945.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
可能常常就會疏漏所以跟趕工跟工程這個工地的趕工的這個狀態其實是有一些相關的這也是我們要非常非常小心我們也在跟治安署其實在討論這部分必須面對跟如果有這個狀況的話我們就要更強力的方式下場去介入好我最後一個問題啦當然不是只有歇華還有是要做勞動檢查嘛是對不對那可以看一下3月27 治安省你們自己換了新聞治安署北中南同步勞檢全台開華1223萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10949.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10972.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
然後在這次的327大老前 差了82個工地總計違反256項 勒令停工28處總統我今天就不再贅述了看起來好像划得很重 你再看歷屆的這個划款這是113年 329 1040 你還沒有破前年再來就變成936 再來就變成985 再來就往下降了這是什麼數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10979.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11000.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
就是說,如果今天治安署的全國勞檢有效,你要去怎麼解釋去年11月的774萬,今年怎麼結果反彈到又回到去年同期的1000多萬。那你治安署跟六都的勞政機關去勞檢,請教一下,那一般縣市勒?是完全不干他們的事情。 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11002.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11030.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
跟委員報告那個整個罰款的金額它是因為那一次的整個全國的檢查的工地工地數你們哪一次不是全國的檢查是由首長帶隊跟當地的主管機關一起對一起有首長帶隊跟當地的主管機關就會把這個罰款金額查獲的委員勞檢的件數提高只要不是首長不是各縣市的主管就是要偏低 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11031.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11059.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
這是什麼邏輯跟委員不是這個意思是說剛剛委員現在秀的這個部分是我們有這個帶隊去做的這個同步勞檢那實際上我們去年整個勞檢裁罰金額也達到五億元不是說這個是當天這個是當天我們的首長帶隊的時候那一天統計出來的數字那你回答我到底還不是一樣只要是當天是首長帶隊的那一天的比例就是偏高 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11061.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11089.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
只要不是首長帶隊的就不是這種金額嗎你要打我應該是這樣嗎我聽懂委員的意思我是覺得說第一個這些相關的數字並不是說一定要罰到什麼一定要罰到上千萬或者是什麼你這個東西作為標準並不是用這個來作為要求那首長帶隊去勞檢這比較代表的是要表達一個對於這個工地勞安狀況的重視它的意義比較是在這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11089.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11112.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
倒不是說一定說我們只要首長帶隊這就一定要罰到上千萬其實倒也不是這個意思可是我覺得表達重視那最重要的事情還是是這個勞動檢查能不能落實到每一天然後把該檢查的部分給檢查出來該罰的部分要罰出來我覺得這部分才是我覺得這是我們要去努力的目標好我要突顯這個問題是因為3月19號我也在這個委員會質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11114.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11132.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我一直提醒勞檢能力是不足然後勞檢不是只有你勞動部跟六都一般縣市勒?是一般縣市勒?也有不足的問題我的母縣、孕育縣你知道嗎剛剛在提到最弱的可以看一下110人就10個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11134.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11146.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
三人是墜落的 什麼業務代查啦喔112人 9人 有6人墜落 5人是營造 1人是製造113人 12人 5人墜落 2人是營造 3人是製造這是近八年最高的 其中一個是飼料廠飼料廠喔另外一個是在食品廠 然後你們的報告是說他因為中毒 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11161.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11175.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
他是墜落他是滑落到那個有早期的地方他如果今天不掉下去沒有這回事啊他也不會中毒啊那這個歸類在墜落還是歸類在中毒但是你們把他歸類在中毒 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11177.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11203.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
不是這樣啊所以我就跟你講這種墜落在工地的範疇裡面在它實際上在操作的範圍裡面它的墜落的樣態絕對不只營造業啦很多很多的業別那沒什麼樣態不一樣我希望你們的你們那個報告可能要再要再詳細精準一些好不好好那我當然我還是會強調說回歸到營造業當然它的比例是最高的我們的方法如果用對 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11205.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11214.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
它可以讓整體的墜落導致死亡人數下降對你整體要達到這個目標當然有幫助嘛但是你也不能輸其他的業別啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11216.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11240.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我們要表達是這樣子嗎 是好不好 好是不是請在一個詳細的一個各個樣態各個評估的這樣的狀態的資料給委員會做一個參考好不好 好 一個月一個月啦 一個月 好 謝謝還有方法 應對的方法 好不好 謝謝好 謝謝劉建國召委的發言謝謝部長的答詢現在我們請羅廷維委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11252.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11260.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
好 謝謝有請部長有請洪部長羅文豪 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11261.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11288.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
好部長好部長大家都很關心喔營造業職災中最嚴重的墜落事故啊長年高居重大職業災害的首位死亡人數占高達是60到70%所以在2024年訂了一個營造業墜落打擊的年度啊目標是全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數呢是要低於68人部長墜落打擊年越打越差到底怎麼了 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11290.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11305.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
跟我們說明確實我們在去年沒有達到沒有達到原本的這六十八的目標可是並沒有升價並不是越打越差啦就是還是有微幅的下降但是下降的復顧確實這個是沒有達標沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11307.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11333.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我們來看一下根據統計自114年1月1日到4月15日因墜落滾落造成的職業災害死亡人數已經達36人是全產業那部長勞動部近期在職業安全的管理螺絲有點鬆因為去今年才過不到一半距離全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數要壓低在68人以下的一個目標現在就已經超過一半了那勞動部怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11337.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11352.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
今年營造業是18目前現在營造業死亡人數是18人18人我說的是全產業因墜落滾落造成職業災害死亡人數已達36人全產業全產業是36營造業是18營造業是全產業的其中一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11358.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11383.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
當然我用最高的標準去看啦那基本上我想說的是113年為例墜落滾落的死亡之災全產業人數有148人剛剛林淑芬委員說113年營造業墜落死亡之災有83人那148減83其他產業有56人65人 對不起比例其實也不少對於營造業以外的行業墜落之災部長怎麼預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11386.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11405.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我想我們現在對於這個相關的墜落我們從法制面的修訂其實現在有做了修法的計劃那現在草案也預計在這個會期希望能夠送到立法院裡面包括要去整合這個層層轉包的包商的責任跟相關的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11406.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11430.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
也包括我們未來會希望能夠去追究業主的責任這是在法制面的部分修法的話是眾多的手段之一法制面你剛剛說的那這樣子我說4月21日台大醫院東外牆鷹架坍塌的一個案件為例造成移工一時事後點工時還發現少一人請問廠商在人員管理的究竟有落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11431.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11460.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
那這個部分上當然這是個案預防發生職災上是不是做得不夠如何降災如何提升其職業的安全衛生的一個品質我想入法修法這也是一個手段那勞動部在報告中有提到加強營造業最弱的預防專案檢查部長檢查一直都有在做那現在你說要專案但為什麼職災總是發生在查查落實之後還是查查落實職業安全衛生都只是做表面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11461.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11484.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
跟文修銘我不覺得這些查查都是做表面那我們需要更努力我覺得我們是確實需要更努力可是我不同意一概而論說這些都是做表面那這樣子我們來看一下雇主跟勞工的個人職安意識會不會不足您覺得呢當然有這個當然有這個狀況那如果是這樣職安意識這部分要怎麼加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11485.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11513.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
這裡面包括剛剛其實大家談到的教育訓練我們必須更落實來這邊我來講一下你剛說的教育訓練嘛就是職業安全衛生法第32條規定僱主對勞工應實施從事工作的預防災變及必要的安全衛生訓練嘛就是所謂的教育訓練但是我們看到這個訓練規則第17條更規定僱主對新僱勞工或者在職業勞工變更工作前因此其受 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11514.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11541.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
適應的一個各該項工作必要一般的安全衛生部長你覺得這個教育訓練勞工的一個職災影響對整個整體發生以後重要嗎整體發生你覺得這個教育訓練對勞工的職災發生影響好 當然重要重要勞動部統計職災發生有近七成的人是罹災者七成的人沒有教育訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11544.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11564.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
七成是總數跟委員報告確實喔這個尤其是營造業很多都是派遣或是點工他在當天上工的時候或許在當天上工就離債的話可能在我們在查查的時候僱主就沒辦法提供出佐證的資料說他有對他做教育訓練所以就會認為他違反規定對113年營造最弱83人有71人沒有教育訓練對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11572.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11582.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
那署長您是不是要跟部長講一下這個數字應該沒有錯吧我們大概是佔七成啦對七成是非常高的部長你有看到現在的狀況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11583.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11609.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
所以我剛才才說我覺得我們關於教育訓練的部分需要更加的落實雖然法規在但是落實的程度不夠高這個土法還是有不足之心現在有法規落實的程度不夠高但是為什麼落實的程度不夠高到底狀況在哪裡勞工於第一次上工時就必須接受教育訓練勞工要怎麼上課僱主要幫他上課還是要找誰去教育訓練的機構上課嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11611.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11628.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
上課的這一天勞工薪水是否規定由雇主來給付呢應該是雇主的責任這些部分我們都相信雇主有責任但是我剛說的不是相信我們要求雇主是有責任的要求雇主要有責任但是他要怎麼上課 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11629.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11653.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
是雇主幫他上課還是專業的教育機構幫他上課還是雇主自己也覺得可以逃避上課這些都是在實務上很多勞工就是因為自己要去訓練機構上課上課的費用雇主也不一定會出啊然後上課當天又有可能沒有薪水當然我們相信有些人會不照法規去走 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11654.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11665.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
所以這個乾脆勞工就不去上課不去接受這個教育訓練所以這就是實務面我們現在遇到的一個困境所以我們到底該怎麼辦部長我剛點出的這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11667.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11686.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
跟委員說明確實這個小小包的包商他沒有能去上課但是我們在法定也規定這個最大包的營造廠在這個最小包的工人進來的時候他如果還是可以集合起來幫他上課我們目前的責任上還是可以去追究到說這個最大包要做這個責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11686.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11708.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
今天大家都非常的著重在數字上的一個探討我也是但是我們也必須要找一些方法說到底這樣子的教育訓練該怎麼辦沒有辦法落實所以教育訓練沒有落實要怎麼瞭解老簡要怎麼去揪出有沒有違反時要如何處理改善的通知罰還這若只是改善通知是不是仍然可以上工 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11709.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11716.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那勞工的危害變資能力還是不夠啊還是容易發生職災啊所以該怎麼辦第一次違反是只有改善通知對吧沒有錯 依照現行的規定是先通知改善所以就可以拼第一次啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11725.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11746.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
呃拼第一次通知改善嘛那拼第一次沒有死他們就賺到啊這就是雇主的態度嘛那我們要怎麼幫助勞工呃其實我們現在上課的管道是非常多如果說是派去訓練單位甚至我們現在人上網都可以上課他隨時都可以上課所以我們現在的提供給這個勞工的一個教育訓練是多種管道是可以我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11747.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11763.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
這個待會我會強調多元管道有問題但是我要講的是第一次可以改善通知第一天的上工有可能是最危險的第一次為什麼因為他不熟悉狀況嘛不熟悉整體的一個勞工環境嘛所以我要講的是說我們現在看到的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11764.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11788.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我們的教育訓練在第一次改善通知這樣子的一個著重點有可能造成很多僱主想要拼看看那再來怎麼勞檢怎麼樣強力的稽查所謂的教育訓練這個區塊我覺得這個部分是可以來努力的再來治安署從109年開始花了多少錢做數位學習教材剛剛你有提到多元嘛到現在又有多少勞工使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11790.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11803.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
請問一下 成效是否符合我們這樣子所有的經費花費 治安署可以幫我們回答一下好 各位委員報告 確實這個部分當時開發以後你花了多少錢 跟大家分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11806.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11824.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
大概每年300萬的維護每年300萬好 那每年300萬那你覺得有多少勞工使用剛剛我們講的有七成的人沒有這樣子的一個教育訓練喔那有多少的人去使用了所謂的數位學習教材你覺得成效有符合你編列這個經費嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11825.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11852.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
跟委員報告目前在這個網上上過課大概有30萬人次啦30萬人次到底是掛課然後大家打開了以後有沒有在前面學習我們也不太知道啦那當然這不是你的錯如果還有這樣子的行為這不是你的錯但是如果沒有安排教育訓練只能依職業安全衛生法第15條除以新台幣3萬以上15萬以下的罰款依然可以上工喔但這不是很怪嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11853.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11880.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
該安排教育訓練的沒有落實等於職業安全衛生法第32條形同虛設所以我要講的是今天我們點出的這些問題治安署要怎麼樣去加強這個部分要麻煩你好不好那部長我所點出的這些問題我覺得今天我們探討時事嘛就數據上的一個去依據這些問題我們希望說能夠點出這些問題也希望部長能夠多關心當然我覺得針對剛剛說教育訓練的部分怎麼樣更加的落實或更多的有效的管道這部分我會來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11882.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11882.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
接下來請楊瓊英委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11909.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11912.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
謝謝主席 陽泉發言 邀請部長來 請部長兩位人好部長好部長 今天的議題 墜落打擊年我想這個是大家都非常非常的關心勞動部也將去年是定位為營造墜落打擊年那目標呢 墜落的 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11936.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11950.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
上升人數是68人以下但最後是破功了因為我們統計的人數是85人那過去大多墜落死亡的人數大概都在100人左右所以首先要來請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11952.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11974.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
當然在公安職災的檢查預防跟處理上有許多的不足他這個問題當然也不是一日之寒那在這樣的情況之下本席要請教請教部長你認為關鍵的原因到底是什麼呢因為營造公安跟墜落死亡如果沒有辦法改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11976.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11999.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
這個會影響的很多的一個效能所以請教你認為到目前為止關鍵的原因是什麼那麼我們又如何有改善的方案請說說明跟委員報告確實去年的原本的目標是沒有達到這我們必須承認但是它還是有一些微幅的下降那可是在目標的達成上面我是覺得我們應該更盡力 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12000.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12025.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
那在這個更進一步的做法裡面我們自己也看到有幾個情況有些是制度面上面的問題包括法規面上的不足那也有一些是落實層面上面包括是現在有一些工程如果他有趕工的狀況其實常常他在這個資安位的部分他其實就會比較疏漏所以這些情況我覺得我們都必須綜合來考慮把它作為我們要改善的策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12026.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12040.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
那怎麼改善呢你很好你可以提出目前的面向問題點在哪裡那你已經提出了那你要怎麼改善呢所以本期請問的是你關鍵的原因你提出了如何改善在制度面上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12042.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12064.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
不足法規上不足的部分我們現在已經提出了修法的計畫跟草案你這個修法的計畫呢你預計預計什麼時候可以出來你們提出了這個職業安全衛生法我們已經送行政院了要嚴重的這個來這個罰則嘛那個跟我們說明我們已經送行政院了預計希望這個會期就送到立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12065.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12089.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
這一個會期你的這個會期是到什麼時候呢這個會期延會到7月底啊所以你的意思是到7月底我們現在才4月30號耶你送到行政院你什麼時候送行政院這個禮拜我們已經送到行政院了已經送出去了嗎因為明天是5月1號耶這個禮拜我們已經送到行政院了所以你是這個禮拜什麼時候送出去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12089.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12114.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
我們其實昨天已經送到行政院了你就昨天送出行政院很好加油那你預計什麼時候可以送出來因為你今天昨天你是4月29號那你如果說要到7月30號才會出委員會那這個我會緊張勞工也會緊張委員不是這個意思我的意思是說我們已經送到行政院但是現在要進入到行政院的法治程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12114.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12132.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
當然他有程序你要去加油啊你要去溝通啊我們一直在跟行政院溝通所以我們預計是希望在五月或者是這個五月之間的前後希望能夠趕快送到立法院你這麼講我只知道稍稍可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12132.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12156.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
可以安心一點點也就是希望下個月可以行政院出來送到立法院因為我們已經送到行政院了所以你們必須要去加油這個是大家非常關注的一個議題因為我們知道國際勞工組織將人人享有安全衛生工作環境是視為勞工基本的一個人權依照主席總署告訴我們台灣營造業 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12159.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12179.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
就業人口約有120萬人120萬人裡頭的七成二也就是86萬人都是基層技術工的這個勞工那每一個公安意外呢那每一個數字呢他的背後都是一個生命跟一個家庭所以你們提出的這一點我希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12180.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12195.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
你要繼續加油跟行政院趕快溝通下個月趕快送到立法院來那你認為我們現在已經修法在進行式當中你認為預期效果會如何你認為能夠下降多少人數 請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12196.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12221.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
我想我們不是很容易估說一個修法後面會像你們做一個修法一定有你的KPI指數你大概的方向到底是怎麼樣因為你一定有目標嘛才會提出這樣的修法第一個是修法部分是在法制制度上面做出一個強化但是就像我們也在研擬說到法就算修了或者現在法也有可是還是有一些部分在落實的層面上 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12223.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12244.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
法通過之後我們在落實的時候我們的辦法還是要出來啊你怎麼樣的監督機制落實這些除了宣傳除了稽查這些都是必要相關的配套辦法我們會盡力做然後我們當然也希望在這個死亡的人數上或者是重大職災的人數上面有一個更顯著的進步 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12245.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12273.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
好 你一個更顯速的進步我也希望我們能夠達到那接下來本席要跟你討論還是過勞之島還勞工假政府的表態那之前本席在這個總質詢的時候也跟你討論過也跟院長討論過那你當時回答本席我非常高興你回答說台灣工時有改善的空間那減少工時的有效方案之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12274.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12297.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
最直接的就是恢復我們過去砍的國定假日因為我們都知道我們比日韓這個時間我們都比較少這也是勞團團體長期的一個訴求當時你在當任立委的時候或者是你對這方面的努力你也都參與其中所以部長國民黨的法案在 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12297.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12319.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
委員會裡頭已經都有討論過而且送出委員會國民黨增加的五天的國定假日現在是等待協商的這個階段那麼行政院跟執政黨現在雖然還沒有版本但是我仍舊希望聽到你的方向 你的立場請教 支持嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12320.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12336.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
跟委員說明因為國定假日相關的法規它的組的單位其實是內政部但是我們勞動部在這個過程裡面也都參與跟行政院當然你是非常重要的一個角色我們確實是認為國定假日的調整是有討論的正面討論的空間我們的態度一直是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12342.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12361.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
所以一直是這樣嗎 因為你在第十屆當然立委的時候你也連署你們這個貴黨的這個民進黨的現在執政黨的委員的提案所以目前為止你也是認為增加國定假日的這個修法是有討論的空間而且你贊同這個方向嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12362.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12388.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
我覺得這個議題是有正面討論的空間正面討論的空間也就是支持那我再請教既然你身為勞動部長那為什麼我們的行政院不提版本有沒有預計要提版本我想這部分可能要問這個法規的主管機關那你擔任勞動部長你認為這個有討論空間你支不支持政府應該要有行政院版出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12389.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12411.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我要說的是說因為你現在談的是法案那法案的本身就可能要問這可能要是你都是參與其中而且你以前擔任立委你也都連署過也提案過所以本席希望這你當然也給了本席一個正面的方向也就是這個有很 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12413.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12432.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
這個正面討論的空間非常好我也希望你能夠促成這也是老團長期最需要的一點好 加油好 謝謝楊委員 謝謝部長接下來請張家俊委員 張家俊委員 張家俊委員不在請鄭天才委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12461.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12489.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
主席 各位委員 有請部長請部長這位好 部長好剛提到勞工的放假本來勞工的放假是在勞動部主管的法例裡面本來在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12490.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12517.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
是第九屆的立法院為了一律一修的時候把它修了就不能再依內政部的依內政部的規定是這樣是這樣來的而且那個這個是違反這個這個法律為什麼呢內政部現在所定的這個辦法所有的紀念節日的那個辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12518.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12537.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
沒有法律的授權是違反行政程序法這是我們中華民國唯一大家一起適用的放假都是違反行政程序法沒有法律授權的法規命令這個是補充好今天很重要的這個議題這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12540.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12562.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
在五一勞動節明天我們今天在談勞工職場預防職業災害及廠場墜落事故的檢討以精進作為的一個專題報告非常非常重要的一個議題從今天勞動部的報告裡面也提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12564.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12568.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
長場墜落事故檢討及精進作為裡面的統計資料全國111年到113年重大職業災害死亡人數總共907人其中墜落有444人 佔48.9% |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12589.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12616.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
那營造業以營造業最多營造業墜落死亡302人佔68%為最高而原住民的勞工最多的就是在這個營造業所以我們常常會接到這樣的一個鄉親不幸的事件然後要常常去協助協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12620.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12642.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
這些我們的勞工相關的這些死亡的無論是職債的賠償還是勞工沒有勞保這些相關很多很多的問題所以我們深深的去了解這些我們的一個鄉親的痛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12643.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12650.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
所以在這麼高的比例,營造業每年墜落造成近百人死亡,佔營造業職災死亡人數60%至70% |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12656.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12683.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
所以你這邊提出的分析原因以建築工程勞工以電梯井施工價及屋頂修站等場所當然這只是幾例指示這其實是很多元的一個造成的一個相關的這些原因所以部長在這樣的一個情形之下去年也特別定為營造業打擊年 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12686.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12705.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
也表示勞動部確實也在重視這個部分但是怎麼樣去當然要先了解原因了解原因才能夠去解決這些怎麼樣去設法解決這些問題這個主要原因是哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12707.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12726.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
跟各位說我們包括在法規上面在制度上面其實有強化的空間包括這些工地的文化層層轉包的責任的切分其實常常造成在究責上面的困難這第一個所以這部分我們提的修法第二個確實我們也該 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12730.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12757.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
確實我們也看到其實有一些在這個工地公安的文化上面其實沒有落實的部分那也包括可能會有一些這個工地裡面管理那這個關於這個這個黃安衛他的投入不足的部分那也包括業主的這個責任其實照理來說業主在這裡面其實是有最多的這個營收可是他擔負的責任卻 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12758.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12780.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
很難追究這些部分我們都做了檢討所以我們也提了修法的計劃那我們也要有一些新的執行上面的做法好非常謝謝這個其實我一直是難以想像我因為我過去念大學的時候從台大大學 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12781.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12808.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
羅斯福路四段我禮拜六禮拜天就騎腳踏車到士林那時候士林正在開發我的舅舅是一個小包工去那邊我不會板磨啦我是不會我只會挑板磨挑板磨在這樣的一個那個年代的過程好像這個墜樓的事件發生意外的病反而不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12809.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12838.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
反而現在這個比例我覺得是很納悶以現在的工程技術包括設施設備應該都在精進才對啊怎麼又產生這些問題其實剛剛部長你有提到轉包又轉包是一個很重要的轉包又轉包一個大樓好了一個大樓一個公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12841.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12863.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
負責水泥的是一個,轉包又轉包,剩下雇主是要5、6個、3、4個。負責板模的,又轉包又轉包。負責鋼筋的,轉包又轉包,然後沒有結合。對不對?就產生這些啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12864.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12886.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
我做板模的,釘板模的,就因為鋼筋的那個氣塊出了問題,我受害,或是說板模的出了問題,鋼筋的受害,類似像這樣的。所以這個部分,除了法之外,法律的,剛剛你有提到這個幾個幾個重要的部分。 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12888.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12903.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
所以尤其是那個轉包轉包那個部分真的是一個需要特別解決的部分因為時間的關係所以相關的就是郵箱臨時工派遣工以前的沒有的東西現在都有了派遣工 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12905.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12930.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
所以類似像這樣的所以這個部分一併的來加強雖然你們已經把草案送到行政院但是相關的這些需要再強化的部分能夠再強化好 謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝好 謝謝曾委員 謝謝部長接下來請麥玉珍委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12944.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12947.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
謝主席有請部長有請部長部長好我要請教你一下我們勞動部的霸凌案是不是我們前部長抱歉下台才逮捕你當勞動部長對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12975.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12994.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
呃 我的 我到老公公 到老公公是不是這樣子的行政院邀請我到老公公做部長的工作所以我們王一川立委才有這個機會就遞補立委這樣是不是事實是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12999.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13020.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
這個是事實嘛所以我們為勞工的權利當一個媽媽孩子往生的痛你能感受得到嗎但是呢到現在他又收到一個冷冰冰的不起訴書這樣子的痛我們當媽媽的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13022.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13046.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
有這種痛求助無門你有感受得到嗎賴委員我跟妳說明我現在是掃時間的官司就勞動部的調查我是認真有霸凌但是不起訴這是司法是檢調的部分所以我們就是說你的態度是如何我的態度人大認為這是霸凌啊人大認為就是霸凌啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13050.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13067.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
我現在在問你的我國公安意外的現在就是平船但是呢今年上半年還未完成已經發生多起的像台中的火力發電廠施工 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13068.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13081.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
工人高度的衰落還有雲林管縣修查人員兩個人也是中毒不治台大醫院外牆的鷹架也倒塌等等根據勞動部統計在2024年因為重大職災死亡人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13091.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13100.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
287人也是因為平均1.25天就有一個勞工死亡這都是人命不是數據其中重大的職災 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13104.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13126.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
列有就是只在列中有就是一直高風險的營造業居高不下的就是7年大家都要問你的我們勞動部職安署的設定希望墜落死亡人數低於68人以下但是光半年 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13128.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13153.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
上半年的墜落死亡就高達了40人當時的判斷數據就是難以如願降低嘛那請教部長勞動部在七年的下半年當初有做出內部檢討或者階段性的改善還有精進的作為下半年的檢討後的成效又如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13154.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13182.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
都是人命啊 當然跟委員說明我們當然做出檢討我們也做出會精進改善的作為這裡面包括修法的計畫也包括跨部會的合作那也包括我們會把一些高風險的這些廠廠然後列為重點會去勞檢跟稽查的對象我們其實有列了一系列相關的改進的作為就是不希望再發生這個類似的這些重大治安事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13183.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13208.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
是啊 但是我們沒有看到成效如何 我不是說勇敢我們有做 就是要檢討 但是到我們去年就是有總共就有83案就是營造業的墜落死亡每一個數據代表的是一個家庭一個家庭的生命 背後更有一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13210.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13224.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
一個人則有一家人所以這個是我們整個家庭的痛就是顯然我們勞動部的設定就是營造業的最落把擊年但是呢我們的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13225.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13249.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
都是口號我們沒有看到的效果所以我們希望針對這個部長是不是有具體不是只是預期降低的數據而已實施的跨部會的效果在哪裡因為我們是看到的就是相比說英國新加坡日本營造業 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13252.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13267.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
墜落死亡为40%南韩约57%但是我们国家高达60到70%大部分的建筑工程劳工比如电梯警或者是施工的价等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13269.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13280.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
所以造成的所以我們要如何預防這些要怎麼樣說落差那麼大我們是不是有去拿別人的我們來檢討我們怎麼去落實怎麼去發布會我們要的是實際有幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13288.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13316.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
不是是檢討在檢討這個是被公安慰的話我們人民勞工不想要停要的是實際有效的我跟委員說明該檢討的部分我們當然正在檢討但是我也不同意要說都是口號並不是其實是這個逐年是有一些改善可是改善的幅度可能不符合大家原本的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13316.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13339.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
可是也並不是什麼都沒有做所以你們做了你們覺得的效果在哪裡嗎有做的效果在哪裡我覺得我們有加強的空間我們有加強的空間所以我們也是覺得有加強的空間在制度面法制面所以我們才提出修法的草案跟計劃這也是一個具體的我們希望能夠改善的行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13341.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13343.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
我們看到的是說我們現行的建築法還有職業安全衛生法都有有停工的規定但是呢我們看到裡面沒有就是說定期還有通常改善後的復工查 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13363.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13381.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
就是我們大包小包中包都無法去落實所以說我們希望說參考有沒有原意重大的違規或者重大公安意外有沒有增加一個期限不是說他們送計畫過來報告檢討你們就會給他們復工 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13386.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13400.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
根本說明我們現在也在檢討停復工的一些條件包括如果要復工的話重大的這個職安或者公安事件發生的話我們會要求要系統性的風險都改善才會復工 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13402.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13427.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
他可能不是一個固定的期限說兩個禮拜還是一個月可能不是這樣而是他要把這些系統性的風險都做出具體的改善作為才能夠復工他可能時間是比一個月更長的所以說你們沒有要求說重大的就會說時間或者說他們提出來也要提出來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13430.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13443.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
遠東新司機的這個化纖廠的事件裡面停工了以後我們現在要求他要系統性的改善他的風險他的停工時間現在已經兩個多月了所以並不是我只是畫一條線說你知道兩個禮拜還是一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13446.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13465.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
就可以讓他復工並不是這樣子的是看他的系統性的風險能不能夠真的被克服跟管理我們希望能夠把復工的條件能夠更加強落實到這邊很好我們要的就是實際的作業或者是有效的你要來報告不是我們不希望說只要是檢討我們在檢討或者是寫計畫這是我們現在正在做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13470.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13482.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
有效的對大家有幫助的還有剛才有很多人問我也是很關心這一塊目前我們多少移工來做營造業還有我們在那麼危險的工作我們本級的訓練就不足了但是我們移工的訓練又如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13497.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13522.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
這麼危險還有說用什麼方式還有用什麼語言的效果如何有嗎這個是不是可以具體給我我們確實現在是希望移工都進場的移工都能有職安卡那職安卡目前其實有設定多國語言但委員說的沒有錯移工相關的安全訓練它會涉及到它會多了一個語言的挑戰這部分我認為我們是要更大的落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13524.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13541.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
讓這個不同語言都能夠讓移工可以得到相關的安全安全相關的訊息的部分我們需要做的更透徹但是現在有嗎我們已經開放這樣子的營造業有移工這個安全的措施這個方法有嗎還是完全沒有還是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13542.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13545.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
我們可以把相關的資料再提供給你們相關的提供給我就是關於這樣子的訓練過程還有說我們希望我們的勞動部跟其他部會真的是應該就是說正式制度面還有就是執行面雙重的施淩這個狀況我們要用政策不能只是口號啦設定的就是數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13568.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13592.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
幫助目標就為了這件事情還要檢討報告這不是意外發生後就是紙上談兵 紙上的作業但我們勞工的命不是一個數字或者在紙上寫而已我們希望的就是勞動部真的動起來跟各個部會因為不管是我們本級的勞工或者外級勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13593.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13618.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
每一個勞工都是媽媽心目中的寶貝這個生命是很可貴的所以希望你要重視這件事情不要去招搖這樣更對不起勞工我們沒有招搖那我們也是用這個非常審慎的心態在看待這件事情的但我覺得不要隨便說我們招搖好 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13623.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13628.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
部長不會招搖也不會招搖接下來請鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在請陳培宇委員好謝謝主席那有請部長謝謝勞動部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13647.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13663.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
好 部長午安明天就是五一勞動節其實有非常多的委員在我前面都已經提出了不管是職場霸凌 國定假日 退休保障那這個我們就不再贅述但是我想要跟部長討論另外一個事情在部長您過去擔任立委期間你長期關注的淨零轉型當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13665.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13694.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
跟所謂的勞工有關的其實是公正轉型那在TK的報告裡面我們可以看到目前他們預估預估相關的計算受到淨零轉型衝擊的勞工人數會來到230萬人那立即性影響到立即性的會是200萬人那整體來說也就是說這個數量其實非常非常龐大那我相信部長您現在從立委的位置移動到勞動部長的位置我相信這件事情應該也還是部長您所關心的事情對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13695.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13705.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
是當然還是很關心好那我們來實際看一下他們現在的訴求來下一張目前他們的訴求有三個第一個是關於所謂的高碳洩漏風險產業他們認為應該要修法規範擬定所謂自主減量計劃的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13710.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13738.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
要先跟工會進行協商來確保勞工在這個過程當中他們的權益有受到保障還有就是過往的對話機制他們認為不夠法制化有沒有機會法制化這件事情強化勞工的聲音在整個公正轉型過程當中的參與還有他們的權利那當然最後另外的是跨部會的問題跟環境部有關他們的訴求是碳費費率審議會應該要納入工會代表那我想前面兩個訴求跟部長您比較相關可不可以請部長就前面兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13739.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13764.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
他們的訴求告訴我們你們目前的為止的準備跟相關的回應跟村委員報告其實農部很願意來跟環境部那也包括相關產業主管機關來合作那在產業面對氣候要減碳或者是說淨零轉型的路上那我們確實是需要把勞工相關的權益給保護好 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13765.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13793.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
所以我們其實也很願意來跟環境部一起來討論如何在企業的減碳計畫中讓工會或者是勞工朋友有更多機會來了解跟更多的參與的角色這部分我們很願意來跟環境部一起來做這部分的研擬那甚至我們也在思考我們也希望可以成立是不是一個跨部會的平台來做相關的資源編列的整合來推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13794.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13811.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
可能更具永續或者是氣候友善目標的一些訓練或者是就業的計畫那這部分希望能夠讓我們的產業跟勞工在這個可能進行轉型的過程裡面有更多支持的力量這都我們希望可以更進一步來推動好 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13812.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13840.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
我非常開心聽到部長甚至提到所謂跨部會平台的計畫透過兩個部會的合作不管是相關的民間資訊或是民間的聲音或者是政府的資源怎麼嫁接起來因為部長剛剛講到一個非常重要的事情在勞工從事勞動工作這麼長的時間當中他確實得跟著時代的轉變不斷的增能但增能這個事情剛剛勞動部講到甚至相關就業計畫的輔導我們都非常期待後續可以看到很棒的進度那這個部分當然不是說了就算 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13841.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13859.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
後續會再追蹤那也會再跟勞動部跟環境部一些時間所以我們希望可能接一段時間跟環境部起來討論甚至來找我們的工會的朋友或者是相關關心的團體我們就一起來做這方面的討論好這個部分我們辦公室會再持續追蹤那接下來最後一題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13860.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13871.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
3月19號我有拜託部長關於在勞動權益的部分尤其在兒少15到19歲的這個部分那當時部長快速的說會帶回去討論那我就想要確定一下目前的進度為何謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13874.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13894.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
在關於兒少的就業權益包含他們現在可能是弱勢少年因為年紀輕 經驗少相對找到的工作可能心思也不是太好又遇到所謂高風險的工作環境那目前在兒少法修法的時候呢衛福部說可能會把相關34到36刪除那當時勞動部這邊也有一些自己的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13895.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13920.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
那還有就是在我們行政院角度或是勞動部的高度有怎麼樣可以更積極協助這些兒少打工的或者是實習生他們在相關的工作場域他們的權益可以受到保障他們的生命可以受到保護來謝謝部長我們應該有把這些相關的議題其實納入到目前包括我們之前參與行政院召開的全國兒少政策的研商會議裡面包括我們的兒少職場安全衛生權益小組裡面放進來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13922.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13949.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
所以他是院等級的討論會議?行政院裡面是有一個相關的研商會議但我們部裡面在3月26號其實有召開我們這個也是一個跨部會的關於兒少職場安全衛生的權益小組的會議那我想我可以再把我們這開會的狀況在相關的資料再提供給陳委員好時間有限那我就想我們之後再跟勞動部所資如何在跟衛福部合作的平台上協助這些兒少的事情好謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13952.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13964.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長接下來請黃學文委員來做詢問謝謝主席 我們請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13972.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13987.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
黃委員好 部長好 部長我剛剛從早上聽到現在其實很多委員都一直關心我們公安的議題那我想請教部長就是說在去年台灣重大的職災總共奪去了287條人命那幾乎剛剛委員提到幾乎 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13997.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14016.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
1.2天一天兩天之中就有一個人死掉那另外就是說在這個職災當中這個全失能或者是永久部分失能或者是暫時全失能的這個傷害那在去年我們就看到就有一萬四千多人就是有這樣的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14017.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14040.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
那我這個是僱主有通報的那僱主如果沒有通報的話我想這個數字應該是更高所以我想請教就是說部長針對這一部分因為剛剛很多委員也有提到就是說營造業的部分那營造業很多可能就是臨時工或者是派遣工可能早上在這個派遣的這個單位然後今天來 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14046.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14050.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
馬上他就把他派到營造營造的這個地點完全都沒有受到什麼樣的訓練也許對公安的這種嘗試完全是沒有所以會造成譬如說墜落這麼多或者是直災的狀況這麼多我想請教部長未來我們在勞動部的這個部分我們要怎麼去預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14072.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14096.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
那另外就是說呃層層發包的這個部分可能也把這個責任層層的就這個轉轉出去了嗎所以要怎麼樣讓這個企業你比如說我今天如果有一棟大樓要蓋的話那這個企業他怎麼樣也要有一些責任而不是把這個責任全部都轉到這個中包小包小小包把這個責任全部都轉出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14097.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14111.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
所以我想聽一下部長對於未來這樣子的一個狀況你們有什麼樣的因應方式跟黃媛說明確實現在在很多的工地裡面這個層層轉包是一個目前現況的樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14114.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14143.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
那這個層層轉包的狀態其實也對於很多在這個公安問題上面的究責產生了很多的困擾跟挑戰所以這也是為什麼我們其實現在在這個治安法裡面那我們也希望接下來是要指定一家廠商來做相關責任的統合那有這個責任的統合才有辦法把這些不同很複雜的工程界面在風險上面做一個比較有效的管理這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14143.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14162.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
所以這個也是比方我們在去年的全聯的大火的台中全聯大火的事件裡的時候其實看到他們因為這個這個拼心發包或切分的太多所以造成責任很難管理的情況那我們現在也看到比方說在中捷的事件裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14163.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14184.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
那業主比方說當時的這個業主他其實是台灣很大的一個相關的企業可是在這個終結的世界裡面卻很難去究責於他所以我們把業主的責任也放進來所以這幾個部分都是我們在制度面上面對於究責希望有一個新的制度上面的強化我們具體的這個修法的跟制度改善的作為是 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14185.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14207.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
好那現在就是這個職安法那職安法的話我知道上個月就是我們勞動部已經預告了就是職業安全衛生法修法草案那就是預告到4月11號那我想接下來就是說你們這邊的程序或者是進度怎樣是不是可以請部長先做一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14209.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14225.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
我們已經在這個禮拜送行政院了所以接下來大家就會進入到行政院的這個法制的程序裡面那我們也會希望跟行政院來盡量來爭取那儘速的能夠完成在院裡面的審議然後趕快送到立法院來 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14226.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14240.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
好 那接下來我也想請教就是說其實一個公安意外的發生剛剛講的也許營造業它可能就是層層發包那其實很多勞工他如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14242.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14265.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
職災發生了第一個他也許希望能夠透過這個訴訟來究責那有時候因為訴訟這個期間也非常的長也許這個訴訟可能一年兩年那如果這個勞工他的傷害他也許需要急需要用這個用錢那這樣子的話其實我想請教就是說如果有類似這樣的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14267.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14297.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
勞工也許會碰到他急需用到一些經費也許這個企業或者是這個企業主他想要跟勞工做和解也許到最後勞工就是直接用和解的方式來處理掉這樣的一個公安事件其實有時候對勞工來講並不是那麼的公平所以我想請教勞動部未來如果有類似這樣的一個狀況第一個我們要怎麼樣去協助勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14300.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14312.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
跟委員報告其實現在職債勞工通常在發生職債以後他就很無助所以我們在目前22個縣市都有這個我們的職業災害的專業服務人員他會及時的接觸這個勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14317.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14338.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
那當然會提供剛剛委員提到的他需要一些這個職業債補償或是申請債保的給付包括他需要一些社會資源我們這個個案服務人員都會逐萬的去協助他是好所以你們針對這部分你們也有就是說如果真的意外發生的話你們在地方政府嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14339.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14354.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
還是在地方政府其實在地方我們有補助然後在地方政府然後就是所謂的PASS那他會有個案性的方式來去協助我們很多職災的勞工好那其實剛剛講的真的如果一旦這個職災發生其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14355.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14378.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
可能就會影響到整個家庭的經濟狀況所以我也希望就是說勞動部針對這部分勞工的部分我們真的應該要把他接住因為也許他因為發生這樣的事情整個家庭經濟狀況就一落千丈所以我們希望就是說勞動部站在勞工的這個立場然後更多提供更多的協助那另外就是說我們在勞動部這邊每年 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14379.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14402.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
就是有這個全國勞檢員編制員額原本是這個2024年是1033人那實際在職是890人那其實還有還不足的部分那另外就是說我想請教就是說在106年監察院那時候就已經有就是糾正勞動部就是勞檢員人力不足的這個問題那勞檢員在第一線服務的時候其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14407.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14434.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
第一個可能就是高危險高危險那而且我們發現就是說這些勞檢員多半都是聘用而不是正式的這個公務人員大部分都是聘用那聘用的話有的根本也不適用勞基法或者是薪資升遷或職癌這個職癌的這個發展其實處處受到限制那另外我剛剛提到就是說他只要是 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14435.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14460.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
去第一線勞檢其實是真的還蠻危險的可能有時候會碰到僱主這個就是企業主的惡言相向我相信應該你們自己本身也會聽到很多那不只是言語的這個辱罵或者是有時候是肢體的衝突都有可能發生那我想請教部長就是說在之前的這個監察院就有特別提到就是說勞檢員不足也有跟你們提出糾正 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14461.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14486.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
那另外就是說多半的這個老檢員都是這個用聘用人員那未來像類似這樣的一個狀況你們是要怎麼去改善跟跟黃委員說明其實我們其實之前已經有爭取老檢員他的這個危害的加級大概五千元到三千元的這個經費那我其實到部裡面以後我自己也感覺很 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14488.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14502.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
跟治安署討論好幾次我們確實發現勞檢人在面對很多他的這個工作的場合裡面會有很多對他很不利或甚至威脅性的挑戰所以我們其實也定我們也會推動一個勞檢人的支持的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14503.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14524.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
那也包括是讓他的專業能力跟他的工作支持都能夠相關的提升那現在目前正在把這個計劃的專案包括經費的編列我們正在規劃都是希望讓勞檢員其實可以有一個更支持系統性支持的後盾那不要讓勞檢員個人去面對現場在執行業務的時候的那些風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14524.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14539.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
因為有的時候那過程就會讓可能老幾人個別會覺得很挫折或者是會有人身上面的安全那這部分我們其實也跟治安署我們這邊在訂立相關的計畫要來提出好那預計是什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14540.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14553.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
因為我覺得你們其實我們之前有開過記者會那我們現在在做在目前持續推動中包括接下來可能相關經費的編列我們其實正在處理的是經費編列的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14555.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14578.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
好我們希望就剛剛我們提到這麼多不論是這個職業安全的檢查或者是勞動檢查其實我們都希望說在第一線的這些勞檢員都能夠第一個這個流動率不要那麼高第二個可能就是這個高危險的這個工作總是要有一些人要做那當然剛剛部長有特別提到就是說這個預算可能會這個勞檢員的薪資也許會 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14584.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14603.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
做一些調整加急加急會做一些調整我覺得這個對第一線的勞檢員也許也是一個鼓勵啦那我們最主要是希望就是說第一線的勞檢員在工作自己本身要去做勞檢或做職安的這個檢查我覺得應該自己本身也要保護好自己啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14603.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14624.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
所以我覺得希望就是說這個五一勞動節是明天那我們今天排這樣的一個案子我也希望就是說勞動部站在勞工的這個立場不論是這個工作的安全也好或者是這個職場的這個霸凌的這種種種的部分我希望就是說勞動部站在勞工的立場去想所有的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14630.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14642.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
好謝謝接下來請何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在請王洪威委員王洪威委員王洪威委員不在請洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員不在請吳麗華委員謝謝主席有請洪部長來部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14661.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14688.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
部长好去年12月25号在台北市政府他们有办一个跨年晚会那当时呢就是有一个阿美族的青年他发生了一个从18米高的地方坠落那主要的原因是没有系安全带那再来呢如果我们去看他的类型他是属于非丁类而且是一次性的活动 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14688.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14705.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
所以這樣的一個樣態很特別但是在前天4月28日的國際工商日台北市政府前就聚集了一群人就是為了這件事而來 為什麼因為對於台北市勞動局的勞檢報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14708.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14724.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
和他們的家屬認為沒有還原真相那台北市的觀察局呢也沒有幫忙家屬爭取職災賠償所以這個部分我想問勞動部有沒有掌握到 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14726.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14749.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
跟委員報告這個整個案子一發生我們就有跟台北市的勞檢處這邊了解這個案情的狀況包括他一開始的停工到最後復工審查讓他可以復工這個過程中我們都有掌握到那後續的部分呢委員講的應該是他後續的有關於他的民事的賠償部分還有真相的還原呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14751.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14767.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
有真相才有賠償啊現在目前還是台北市勞檢處在做這個職業障礙的檢查報告我希望勞動部當然我知道六都的部分是由他們市府的勞動局但是我希望中央的勞動部也能夠介入慣性好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14768.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14787.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
我覺得我們願意適時的在這個案子上面給予協助好謝謝部長的承擔那為什麼我也來提這件事就是因為113年勞動部特別訂定叫做墜落打擊年那當時目標訂定說希望能夠縮短縮小到68人 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14788.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14806.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
但是呢去年的年中其實就已經超過68人那從今年度的數據來看現在如果數據是4月15號截止的話呢墜落的有36人死亡看起來今年呢也很難達標 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14809.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14823.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
36是全应该是全产业是那就营造业是18人是那所以部长认为今年应该可以达成预定的目标跟各位说明我不会说啊我们很有把握 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14824.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14842.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
可是我只能說我們會很努力的來進行這個目標的達成所以我們很需要檢討嘛對不對那今天我們看一下專報有提到墜落事故的檢討跟精進作為我比較關注的是我要提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14844.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14856.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
這個最弱的就是在我們重大職業災害當中最弱的就是佔48.9%就是一半那其中呢營造業是佔了68% |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14859.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14882.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
所以在這個部分我們可以看到像是電梯井的墜落施工架的墜落屋頂修繕的墜落它都是來自於沒有採取適當的防罪設施那其實我這幾年當立委這幾個類型我都有接觸處理過包括電梯井 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14883.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14903.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
所以在這裡我們可以看到跟其他幾個國家像南韓 美國 日本 新加坡我們的這個部分墜落的死亡殖災比例算是偏高的所以才會有墜落打擊年的一個訂定目標那我也要跟部長說您知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14904.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14913.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
我們目前全國五大最缺工的行業恰恰是原住民從事的前五大行業你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14915.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14935.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
這是很有趣的一件事就是我們都是在最高的工地印價上最深的礦業最遠的遠洋漁業那原住民的勞工每千人的職災率不但長期以來是高於全國的平均也高於產業的平均而且在這邊從事營造業的原住民主任當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14936.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14954.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
有55%沒有收到過公安職災預防的資料而且遇上職災的原住民勞工當中高達五成沒有拿到過任何法定的職災賠償也就是我們職安法裡面所訂定的最低的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14955.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14975.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
所以這個很顯然就是資訊落差所以我想問勞動部有沒有掌握到原住民工人的職災率然後針對這種公安職災的預防有沒有想過用什麼管道去縮短資訊落差觸及到我們這些族人 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14977.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15003.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
跟委員報告確實這個原住民的部分他的從事的都是比較這個這個比較基層這個高風險的行業所以整個植栽的人數這部分跟植栽率目前我們都有掌握那至於說委員剛剛關心的怎麼樣觸及這個從業人員這個從業的族人那除了我們辦訓練外我們在宣導部分也盡量去到部落裡面去做宣導或是在這個營造工地 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15005.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15028.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
這個他在部落周圍的營造工地他可能在那邊從事我們的宣導也會要觸及到那個地方我要提的是說因為我是生活在部落的人如果連我都察覺不到那就是表示可能沒有什麼大的效果所以我希望這個部分要盡量的再想辦法要怎麼樣去觸及到族人知道這些資訊你這邊提的第二個問題因為第一個問題是關於職災一部分當然我們就應該來做出統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15033.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15061.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
來掌握那第二個部分我是認為恐怕我們是希望跟園民會來做一些更進一步的合作因為園民會可能有比我們更多的管道來觸及到族人我們可能有這方面的這個職災預防上面的資訊跟專業那也許園民會有相關的觸及到族人的通路那我們應該來跟他更合作我也來請我們的治安署來找園民會做一個專案的合作這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15062.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15087.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
你看喔光是講勞基法第59條勞工如果遇到職業災害傷害或罹患職業病死亡他其實是可以拿到5個月平均工資作為喪葬費跟40個月平均工資的死亡補償其實我們很多族人根本連這個都不知道那我們作為民意代表經常就是要幫助他們去協調去爭取 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15090.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15115.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
那當然這個是最低保障那有時候我們可以爭取到更高的倍數可是在這個當中我們會發現到原來很多的族人其實他能夠找上民意代表幫忙還不錯可是更多的族人是他連找民意代表幫忙他都不知道他自己有什麼權益他都不知道故族也不告訴他所以呢我要跟我們部長再報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15116.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15135.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
其實因為他們要規避災保法的通報的處罰 跟治安法停工的處罰所以族人說他們有一些工地的潛規則受傷的時候不能叫救護車 不能就近就醫 不能去住院 而且要說是交通意外 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15136.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15149.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
結果為了我們這些法律的一些處罰為了規避 雇主要規避結果本來是要保障變成更傷害所以部長你對這有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15151.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15172.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
跟委員說明其實這些規避說實話他也不是針對原住民是我們在很多的地方看到職災勞工僱主可能都有這樣子的這種我覺得確實是一個潛規則式的要求那當然這是我們不能夠接受的所以我們現在當然也是希望來改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15173.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15200.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
職災勞工的包括的通報的資訊那也包括這個通報的資訊跟接下來他可能在保險上面的給付的勤領之間這個包括他的程序我們也其實之前我們甚至開了一個工作坊那就希望來檢討這件事情所以從通報到後續的這個勤領給付甚至是到重建的工作這裡面有很多的程序設計我想我們都正在檢討要來調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15202.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15231.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
所以部長您就是剛好提到我這樣講的當然一方面勞檢很重要但是仍然發生高比例的墜落事件顯示勞檢它還是有限難以預防那特別是勞檢人員到底夠不夠那如何補充那甚至是您剛剛提到的就是關於有沒有受教育訓練因為我們很清楚的可以看到有接受教育訓練跟沒有接受教育訓練差很多啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15231.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15254.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
真的差很多啊這個很重要啊所以有什麼措施落實雇主與勞工之間的教育訓練這個非常重要看起來這是一個很有效的策略所以呢要著重所以特別最後就是本席就是希望要求說針對這個墜落打擊年我們要找到檢討之後有效的措施然後檢討修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15256.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15272.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
那落實勞檢如果人力不足就要補充那也希望檢討現在的非丁類像我剛剛提的那個類子就是非丁類而且是一次性的活動希望就這個部分也要去檢討然後關於教育訓練還有職安資訊的傳播 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15274.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15291.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
要去想到有效可以觸及到雇主與勞工的那也希望儘速修正職安法去提高沒有落實安全措施的這些雇主要怎麼樣去處罰他跟委員說明其實我們有做了一個原住民族的職災的預防的資訊網 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15293.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15318.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
可是這個我們做好以後我是覺得恐怕我們還是需要跟剛剛說跟園民會來合作不然我們自己做也許就放在那邊其實很多人不一定去看到他或在上面了解到資訊這部分我們是可以來加強的好謝謝部長我們跟勞動部一起繼續努力謝謝主席好謝謝吳委員謝謝部長接下來請徐新穎委員徐新穎委員徐新穎委員不在請蔡議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15319.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15344.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
蔡議員...蔡議員不在請委員...委員...委員要來,你上來請部長好,謝謝主席請部長,有要叫別人嗎?市長署長也來好了來,署長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15348.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15352.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
表委好部長好部長回答或署長回答都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15354.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15378.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
我們在2023年的重大職災死亡的人數大概總共有300個人以產業比來看營造業的死亡人數佔比超過50%有151個人以災害的類型來看是以墜落滾落導致死亡的人數也高達47%那 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15382.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15409.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
職安署的資料是這樣子,就五年來營造工程業佔職災死亡的人數大概都是近五成的職安署也把營造工程業列為重點稽查的對象是什麼原因造成營造業的職災死亡人數高居不下 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15412.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15430.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
蘇長回答好了跟委員報告營造業他的工作樣態跟一般的工廠廠長是不一樣因為他每天的這個作業非常多的包商同時在作業那他之間的施工的界面勞工跟勞工或是包商跟包商之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15432.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15459.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
大概目前主要的問題是在現場的一個統合管理的部分造成這個它的一個風險一直存在所以會造成說這個第一線的作業勞工或許他不曉得因為他今天進來不曉得昨天的這個包商把哪一些安全防護做了移除他都不曉得所以這個部分目前在這個營造業裡面大概是最大的風險是在這個地方好 那署長既然知道原因那你們有沒有減災的策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15461.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15491.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
跟委員報告在策略部分我想還是要從法制面那目前我們也檢討目前在整個最上位的這個治安法看起來是在規定上是有一些漏洞所以我們目前是要去補這個每一層的包商都要去管理他現場的這個負責管理他現場的公安那執行面的部分大概我們現在也去調整一些做法就是說我們在這個整個比較過去比較高違規的或高實災的這些公立列管 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15492 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15520.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
然後頻率甚至說它這一兩年來發生兩線職災我們就會把它當作每個月去檢查一次這個執行面我們真的也在做再來就是教育訓練的部分那我想剛剛委員都提到這個部分怎麼去加強基層勞工的安全衛生的資能這個部分我們也在努力所以主委剛剛講的三個策略其中有一個是修法那修法的部分你們有什麼時候會提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15522.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15534.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
修法的部分我們其實已經送行政院了那應該是接下來會在行政院的法治程序裡面我們希望也可以盡快的審議那要盡快那看能不能在這個會期我們希望能夠送到立法院裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15538.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15563.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
有學者分析近年的職業災害的案例針對營建業的最多關鍵危害的因素提出了大概剛剛署長也都講了我還是希望你們能夠藉由工地設施的配置補當 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15565.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15593.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
還有工地本體防護不足跟沒有安全設施工地設施性能跟強度不足這三點還是必須要在不管法制面的健全也好現場的的勞動檢查也好必須要注意到所以這是弱勢面的部分對營造業的重大職災案件中又以臨時工 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15595.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15617.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
跟其他工種譬如說其他工種就是像清潔沒有辦法歸納的以這種臨時性的勞動力算是危害最高我不知道像臨時性的治安署這邊要怎麼提升治安的觀念跟訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15620.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15643.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
跟委員報告 確實在一個工地裡面有時候會到十幾個包商的勞工都在現場那這個時候呢我們認為管理上就是最上包這個大包就是營造廠他要負責這個任務所以工地裡面不管進到他的場域裡面他都要負責這個職業災害的防止我知道 我是說因為臨時工他可能就是就是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15645.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15672.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
不是非常太在這個領域工作嗎臨時工進來特定的場域你們有沒有什麼特別的職安觀念的訓練是 確實因為如果是非常小的包商他有可能是只有一位到兩位這個部分就現在在部裡面這邊就要推動所謂的職安卡的教育訓練就是說這些無一定僱主的勞工人甚至我們都補助經費上六小時的課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15673.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15701.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
來強化他們的安全衛生的知識那像這一類的臨時工你們怎麼監督營造業投保 自災保險跟委員報告確實我們目前還是希望剛剛提到的這個最上位這個包商他在做入場管制的時候必須要去查到底這個今天進來的這些所有的工人 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15702.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15730.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
作為勞工是不是有投勞保或是投災保那個目前我們是要求這個最上包營造廠要善盡這個責任就是還是以最上面的包商為主還是要去落實啦因為工作的性質特別是以臨時工來講這個在經濟上通常是比較弱勢這個第一點第二就是他對工作的場域比較不熟悉所以更需要保險的支持好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15734.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15735.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
我們依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15737.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15760.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
職業安全衛生法的相關規定政府機關除了政府機關或者5人以下的事業單位以外大概都必須要設置職安衛生管理人員我們現在是30人以上的事業單位依照規定必須要設置而且必須要報勞檢機構備查請問一下現在我們超過 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15766.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15780.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
5人未滿30人因為他有急劇的規定超過5人未滿30人的事業單位我們是怎麼確保或查核他有相關的設置 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15781.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15798.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
案件人員跟委員報告確實這個小微型企業30年以下目前法令沒有規定說一定要通報但是呢我們在這個規定上不一定說他這個這麼小還要在另外設一個老年人由雇主本身去接受20個小時訓練他還是可以擔任這個老年人 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15805.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15813.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
我們現在是這樣子齁就是剛才是5人以上30人未滿現在問的是30人以上100人這個級距按照勞動檢查的統計2023的統計數字在30到100人的製造業已經有設置 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15833.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15842.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
安全衛生人員的業者大概是七成七非營造業大概是六成四我請問一下這個設置比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15848.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15863.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
這個數字假如是對的原因在哪裡就是為什麼還有製造業還有大概兩成多然後非製造業還有大概三分之一沒有設置原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15865.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15883.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
跟委員報告確實那個勞安人員或職安人員他基本上也是會做一些異動那他有時候是因為在等待上課因為他這個我們外界的這個訓練的訓練單位他的班並不是每個禮拜開班所以他會因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15884.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15903.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
這個部分他需要去配合這個上課時間所以在這個時間如果被我們檢查到的話我們就會認定說你現在是沒有設置就是有的時候會有空窗期就是他的原本的人走了然後應該補的人就是可能還沒有取得資格署長的意思是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15905.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15922.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
有部分是這樣子我覺得這個比率是真的有要大幅提高的必要我是認為這都是法規上面的要求把法規上的要求必須做到我覺得這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15924.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15936.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
我會來加強要求那最後因為時間的關係所以我就直接講了部長曾經有講過就是勞檢人員其實工作很辛苦那勞動條件跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15939.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15965.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
職業安全衛生的法令能不能落實其實跟勞檢員息息相關那希望部長能夠在比較短的時間之內看如何讓我們因為我們的勞檢人力其實一直是有不足的那不足的原因大概部長也都知道那希望部長能夠部長也有講過考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15969.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15980.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
提高薪資也好,加上9任的獎金也好,這個相關的工作可以做的,請部裡面這邊盡速進行好不好?好,謝謝部長,謝謝署長,也謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15994.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
16000.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
好 謝謝我們接下來請陳英委員發言好 那個麻煩請部長跟展署林署長好 部長請 署長請陳委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
16022.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
16023.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
台北市跨年晚會原住民青年墜落的重大職災案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
16037.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
16060.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
我想要請教一下 因為之前我有質詢要求 部長也發了公文說對於重大職災的檢查報告要提供給家屬 要完整提供給家屬那請問一下這件調查報告有沒有提供給家屬了 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16064.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16084.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
目前我們的規定就是要提供給家屬那委員是指就是家屬有收到了嗎因為從12月25號到現在已經是現在4月底了是 委員是指哪一個個案因為我們目前在行為要求12月25號的 是什麼台北市的那個對阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16088.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16114.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
那個委員不好意思我們可能要再了解一下對你如果不知道你就說你不知道沒有關係啦齁那所以你現在沒有掌握嘛沒有掌握說這個調查報告是不是有完整提供給家屬了我們再來了解一下好那我想你還我想有一件事更需要被了解的是說這個職災報告是否和事實吻合符合這件事情我想是更重要的齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16116.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16135.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
所以因为我为什么要在这里提出这样子的事情是因为在今年的4月26号其实也就没几天了那我来念一下我们刚好办公室有这个案例有接到陈情 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16136.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16146.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
那這個 左邊這個是勞工的一個自述的一個版本那右邊是檢查單位的調查 包括一個檢查單位的版本那我唸給大家聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16149 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16177.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
勞工自己寫說那天怪手在用布繩吊掛水泥寒管在旋轉至我頭頂上方約兩米高處要下降時突然布繩斷裂我原本要去把管扶正整個水泥寒管先砸到我的頭後來我往後倒失去意識二到三秒後清醒後我的左右腳完全被 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16178.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16203.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
完全被壓在破碎的水泥函管下 左腳完全變形公司要求我說 函管是用吊車吊掛的然後用怪手移位然後要我說 函管突然與布繩脫落 才會砸傷我不然他們說 不按照這樣講 沒有辦法請到保險董事長也有說 保險是勞檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16205.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16224.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
保險或是勞檢來問的時候家屬一律說不清楚他被這樣要求那目前右腳他的這個折骨骨折那左腳左腳踝是以下是截肢的好這是勞工的版本那麼檢查單位的這個版本卻變成這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16227.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16252.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
丰和丰营造有限公司所雇劳工林宏伟那于工区内管制函管安装作业时与函管沟取配合挖土机移动函管时目视确认函管接口有无对齐于前述安装过程中脚部未离开函管接口处 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16253.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16276.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
導致積聚移動寒管時發生寒管壓狀靈元逐步致傷後隨靈元經送往林口長庚醫院救治經救治後靈元左腳腳踝以下截肢目前仍住院觀察中我想這兩個版本對照起來大家可以理解我們原住民老公是這樣被對待的 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16277.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16302.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
那你這個檢查單位的版本其實後來就變成是勞工自己的疏失了所以我舉這個例子只是要告訴你們也要鄭重提醒所以這個重大職災檢查報告檢查報告提供給家屬是很好但是你那個報告內容到底和事實符不符合我想這個就是你們要注意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16302.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16322.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
當然回到我所關心的這個跨年晚會的那個就是原住民青年墜落的事情我也希望你們去了解一下目前處理的狀況因為在這個禮拜一他們又開記者會在抗議你看從去年底12月發生到現在已經過了幾個月了 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16324.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16345.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
大家還在吵嘛那當然這個案件就是說如果他們有找對民意代表大家對法規很熟我們可以很快把它處理好但是如果他們沒有找對人的時候可能就是變成羅生門或者大家就吵翻天了那這個部分你們是不是可以在最短時間內了解再回報給本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16346.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16366.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
跟委員說明目前他的報告書還沒有送到就是去年跨年的這個案件他報告書還沒送到我們會來來跟他再來做詢問那第二個是我們會在這個案件因為這個案件社會很關注我們會來了解一下目前其實包括這個旨在的勞工他的家庭跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16368.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16376.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
跟台北市勞檢處目前在處理的狀況有必要的協助什麼時候可以去完成這個瞭解回報給本市今天嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16384.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16413.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
我們時間要不要暫停 要不要直接說跟委員報告 那個報告書他現在已經送到署聯來那署聯這邊有備查 但如果說委員需要的話我們可以把好 那委員會後你們立刻提供那當然回到我們今天就是這個職災死亡最多的危害類型也就是最弱傷害的預防我想要請教就是首先是這個高速作業高價作業以及高空作業在法規跟實務上的預防措施是不是有所不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16416.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16442.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
跟委員報確實現在在法規上我本來是想問部長的應該是在名稱上有不同我想應該不只名稱上實質的處理上應該是非常的不同那事實上這個高速作業包括了高架作業跟垂降作業也就是大家熟知的高空作業那我們辦公室去查了非常多的資料才找到這張圖片 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16444.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16469.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
我们发现光是坠落灾害预防涉及的各种作业安全措施跟管理它是非常复杂也非常困难我想请教署长你们在定定坠落打击加强年的目标值的时候有没有想到降低30%其实是一个非常困难并且有高度挑战的目标 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16470.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16480.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
那你們在這個去年是否有掌握各種高處作業的這個災害現況然後設定具體的介入手段檢討實際發生災害的原因然後趕快來調查預防介入的方法嗎有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16489.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16502.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
呃謝謝委員確實啊剛剛委員在點出來的部分目前最高的在呃發生災害最高就是在屋頂作業還有施工下一些開口那我們大概都是針對這個部分在做呃檢查部分一定是重點部分就放在這裡是呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16507.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16531.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
檢查的重點我是說你們有沒有很快速的去調整預防介入這些方法不然你們設的這個百分之三十的目標值一直都沒有辦法達標啊是這個目標是很艱鉅那我們現在是常常是幾乎每個月會去看看目前發生的災害因為如果你們沒有做的就是說沒有的話或者沒有做得很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16532.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16547.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
可能就是說你們要達成這個目標感覺是在碰碰運氣啦那即使是你們真的達標了本席也要質疑因為我剛剛有舉那個案例了嘛可能在這個檢查報告跟統計上就是被做的手腳了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16548.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16571.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
我現在不是在亂講話因為你們已經就是被我抓到一些案例了嘛那再不然就是說說你們未來對於這個墜落預防會不會會不會要調整有一個設有一個新的目標也就是繼續加強打擊墜落那不會因為一次沒有達標就放棄了 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16573.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16599.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
我們不會因為一次沒有達標就放棄那我們會來調整一些更精進的做法來把這個目標趕快來達成所以會調整的是你們的做法而不是30%的這個目標是嗎我們今年還是會用這個這個去年的目標來作為我們的目標因為這個目標確實是有它的挑戰性那可是我想我們會再把做法上面做出一些精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16601.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16625.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
因為當初如果說設定目標是20%我想也是就可以達標了只是說我要肯定說你們企圖心很強但是預防介入的手段不夠精準而且你們的減災目標分配給各個檢查單位事實上也沒有多加過問說他們如何在打擊墜落你們都沒有問 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16627.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16642.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
所以我覺得說新署長上任呢應該要調整一下觀念就是說失敗不可恥但是你要檢討原因啦那即便你成功了你更要知道成功的原因你才可以維持嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16644.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16664.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
最弱它是非常困難預防的我們從查到資料到歸納出幾個原因包括第一線作業很難設置防罪設備開口的防護不易失座而且作業時間很短也怕麻煩以及使用個人防護具會降低工作效率 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16665.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16675.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
署長這些挑戰你有沒有想過說要怎麼克服畢竟光靠這個檢查你也沒有那麼多的人力不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16678.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16701.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
是謝謝委員 其實剛剛部長也有提到我們現在是要先從法治面這邊去處理再來就是我們在這個檢查的部分一定要要求這個所謂的大包這個營造廠要負起這個責任因為確實裡面很多都是包商跟包商之間這個作業一時途徑方便還是要有這個最大包的工地好那我想我再來談一個比較實際的問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16704.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16726.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
本席想要建議你們啦就是說職安法裡面不是有這個退避權嗎那當勞工朋友有足夠的教育訓練知道說他們跟他一樣的勞工是如何發生職災的那當他發現說作業現場不夠安全的時候他可不可以行使這個退避權 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16727.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16755.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
尤其是這個工程的這些小包商啊那一旦說這個小包商行使了退避權那他可以領有原來的薪資或部分的薪資嗎可以嗎跟委員報告現在的條文確實有這樣規定就是他如果是危險退避不能做不利的處分對啊但是你可以保證他們就是說特別是這些小包啊那他們如果行使了退避權他們可不可以領有原來的薪資或部分的薪資 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16758.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16769.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
目前是沒有 我們沒有收到這樣的個案申訴或是說有這樣的一個事業單位行使這個第一線的勞工有做這樣的一個叫做退避的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16770.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16796.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
我想你們沒有收到並不是人家不想行使而是不敢因為行使了可能就領不到錢所以也有可能是因為害怕所以就你們遲遲到現在很快樂的說我們沒有接到任何的通報我想這個不是一件可喜可賀的事情所以我問這個問題是希望你們能夠宣示讓製作人說 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16798.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16816.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
有這樣的狀況發生小包他們可以行使退避權也可以保證可以領到他們的薪資你能不能做到現在依法是有這個權限空間的那你要讓他們讓他們有這個勇氣去行使啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16818.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16844.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
確實如果他因為除了法規上面的原因以外他如果遇到這樣的需要可是他不行使或不是他提出這樣的權利的話我覺得我們來思考一下對你們應該要主動出擊嘛因為就像我們在這個原住民的碎石祭儀假可以請一天返鄉去行使我們的責任但是問題是很多人不敢請因為怕請了就沒工作了 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16845.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16855.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
這是一樣的道理所以這個希望你們能夠主動出擊那實務上因為勞工擔心被貼標籤或者喪失薪資因此就不敢退避那就是說這個你們應該真的要 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16860.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16873.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
更要幫助這些勞工那基於自身保護的這個生命安全仍然是可以獲得一定的報酬不然就是我們職安法上規定的這個退聘權它就變成一個擺設性的花瓶了不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16875.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16898.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
最後就是說要請署長你去檢討你們的宣導教材太複雜也太專業了看一下你們的這個墜落危害預防宣導的這個海報你看到密密麻麻這樣一個我這樣乍看之下我也不是很清楚說你們這個網站上的教材是要給這個安全衛生管理人員看的還是給勞工朋友看的 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16899.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16923.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
我也不曉得這個實際上貼起來它的那個比例是多大啦你看那幾張我就看得眼睛都灰了同樣的在開口的部分下一張簡報我們看一下勞工商人廁所開門之後人就踩空董醫生就掉到地下二樓宣告不治死亡然後再來看下一張就是這個是高空作業的也是非常危險還有再看這個屋頂作業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16925.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16952.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
也都就是看起來都是危險重重那我只知道說出事的都是第一線的勞工朋友那特別是很多都是我們原住民的同胞所以可不可以設計製作一些勞工可以輕易理解的教材或者針對我們這個在文化特殊性在語言上有特殊性的我們原住民或者是外籍勞工朋友可以懂的這些教材我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16953.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16971.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
這樣子一定對於這個整個防止墜落有很大的幫助也早日協助你們達到30%的目標好 關於教材的部分或者是資訊怎麼樣讓勞工朋友更容易掌握跟了解我想這部分我們就來改進好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16982.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
17009.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝這邊要提醒部長,因為剛剛在質詢的時候也怕今天耽誤太多時間了我還是要提醒一下,其實今天這個墜落的事情不是第一次討論我想也討論多次了我還是覺得有幾個面向可能要提醒部長要好好去看怎麼樣去規劃跟處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
17011.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
17030.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
其實勞動能力也不足啦,勞檢能力也不足啦,這看不看得到,你如果去落實把你的教育訓練可以普及,可以精準,我想我們很多多元補助這個產業界的這種教育企劃嘛,是不是要一併去做,看怎樣搭配嘛,去融入嘛,而不是額外再去, |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
17031.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
17051.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
再去辦什麼樣的教育訓練我覺得這是一個必須要去做盤整跟調整的一些事情那第二個我剛剛特別提到你的勞選能力確實不足到一定的程度了這個是不是可以快速的來做處理那第三個以我為例來講113.12人他的墜落製造業是大過營造業所以這個也是有不一樣的一個因素還有那個樣態的 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
17060.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
17080.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
的情況在改變所以在這邊就請部長是不是可以再多加辛苦、多加努力一些跟治安署這邊最後就是如果參與公共建設的標案又發生了墜落事情那是不是有什麼樣比較重的懲處方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
17083.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
17100.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
我想收工部門在做了一些決定,會帶動民間企業相關的一些重視,跟著這樣的腳步去做改善,或許就可以再降低某種程度的墜落人數比例。給勞動部做一個參考, |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
17105.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
17122.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
來本次會議訓導全部結束那現在處委現在決定第一報告集訓導完畢第二委員諮詢未及導入或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以順便導入委員另要求期限者從期鎖定那本次會議到此結束現在休息星期四上午九時繼續開會謝謝 |