| IVOD_ID |
166290 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166290 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-20-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-10T10:49:47+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-10T11:01:41+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:54 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0fd0b544efb0c809f9ecb9f93c172c55119f30473e88220b30a24d4c92cf601975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林思銘 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:49:47 - 11:01:41 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「財政收支劃分法」7案：（僅詢答）
(一) 本院委員郭國文等17人、委員賴瑞隆等19人、委員賴瑞隆等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等3案。
(二) 本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。
(三) 本院委員邱議瑩等26人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。
(四) 本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。
(五) 本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十條條文修正草案」案。
二、審查「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例」2案：（僅詢答）
(一)本院委員郭國文等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條條文修正草案」案。
(二)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「國家金融安定基金設置及管理條例第四條及第五條條文修正草案」案。
【12月10日及11日二天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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請部長還有我們副主席長請莊部長 陳副主席長部長早部長先就教你財政收支劃分法的問題我想立法院在12月5號依法否決財劃法的附議這是主院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
27.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
51.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
任内第八次的复议案遭否决也创下中华民国宪政史上的壮举根据宪法正修条文第三条第二项规定行政院对立法院的决议应接受而行政院却公开宣称没有必须执行的压力甚至强调不会也不能执行违法的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
52.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
78.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我想宪法并未赋予行政院择其所欲执行法律的权利行政院长身为我们最高的行政机关首长公开宣称拒绝执行挑战我国宪政体制的根本所以我要就教部长还有副主席长行政院公然抗拒立法院删除通过的法律你认同吗你们两位认同吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
79.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
86.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
跟委員報告 立法院三讀通過的法律後續有關憲政上的一些程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
86.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
102.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
在憲法上有所規定那對於11月14號三讀通過的財化法的再修正版那我們在附議裡面很清楚的提到就是說因為這樣的一個擴大釋出會讓中央政府必須再增加舉債2646億那再加上115年總預算必須要再舉債2992億的情況下他就違反了公債法的流量上限規定他是至愛難行因此行政院提出附議希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
116.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
120.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我們立法院能夠再能夠審慎的再去考量這樣的一個事情那當然還有一關相關的補助性一般性的補助款跟計劃型的補助款相關的分配也有它的摯愛難行之處剛才您在尋找的時候已經歷次說明了很多你的一個看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
137.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
163.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
其實我想大家可以說各說其事當然我的想法很簡單就是部長還有主席長那到底現在是這種狀況之下法案已經三讀通過了你們是支持左院長在復議已經被否決之後然後你還繼續為他做政治背書認為即便法案三讀通過我們也不尊重立法院所通過的法律嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
167.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
184.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
跟委員報告就是說就我們主計總處來說就是說我們就是依法行政那目前通過的版本主要是考慮到他違反了公共債務法所以因為我們不能違法所以目前就沒有辦法來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
185.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
202.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
是 所以我剛才一直強調 各說其是從憲法的角度 行政院沒有拒絕立法院所刪除通過法律的這樣的一個行政舉措 它是不能抗拒的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
203.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
228.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
你這樣根本就是違憲我想法律的位階是低於憲法之下既然憲法規定那麼清楚立法院三讀通過的法律就要去予以執行也沒有經過大法官解釋說這部法律是違憲的一個情況之下行政院可以抗拒嗎其實我個人看法是不可以所以行政院如果可以單方面認定法律違法而拒絕執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
229.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
245.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這已經讓國家讓中華民國政府形成一個專制的政府是一個獨裁的政府而否決立法院依照多數民意所定的一個法案也否決了立法院制衡與監督的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
246.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
259.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所以我還是希望不管是財政部還是主計總署你們三思而行還是要依法行政依憲法來行政另外我想問一下財政部宣稱修法後補助款增加至5450 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
264.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
283.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
5455億元需超限舉債2646億元嘛超出我們年度的公共債務法的舉債上限導致這個債限破表就剛才你們一直強調的嘛所以我想請問就是說針對這些財務的推估啊我們是否有對外有完整的揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
284.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
287.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
你這個推估有完整揭露嗎我們有詳細的說明第一個就是11月14號通過的這個財化法它的要求第一個中央統籌分配稅款其實在去年的通過以後那這一次的編列達到8800億 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
299.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
314.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那又要求各縣市的一般性補助款以及計劃型補助款都不能減少那就是2501億2501億的一般性補助款跟計劃型補助款2954億所以整體加起來是一兆4329億數字是有出來了但是我想是部長這些數字是否有經過獨立的審計驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
322.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
336.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
第一個統籌分配稅款這個部分我們在年初的時候就已經算出來了那但是有關一般性就是年中的時候不是年初抱歉那一般性補助款跟計畫性補助款這個是根據主總的計算你是有這個經過審計驗證出來的一個數字是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
340.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
361.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
因為我們跟委員報告 主要就是說一般性補助款跟計劃型補助款它基本上都是一種延續性的計劃所以我們按照這個以往的這個經驗來推估算出這個總數所以是依照以往的經驗來推估啦所以我是希望說行政院啦 或者財政部 尤其是主計總署 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
363.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
377.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
你可否 你不是說依照經驗來推估但是實際上他這個要驗證 實際去驗證他所以可否將這些財務推估完整的揭露你是如何去依照過去的經驗來推估 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
378.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
379.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我還是要強調最後的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
401.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
418.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
行政院與財政部一再主張修法導致國家破產中央無法編預算你們的說法是這樣其實外界也一直認為說這樣的做法是刻意操弄財政黑洞與破產說但是財化法的修法核心我還是要再強調一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
419.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
440.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
財政收支劃分法它修法的核心目的是來調整中央與地方財源的不足就要落實財政民主與地方自決但是我們看到目前修法前確實許多縣市財政困難仍嚴重依賴中央一般及計畫性補助來穩定我們地方的一個財政困境所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
442.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
461.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我還是希望部長跟主席長你們三思既然我們財務法現在已經三讀通過了讓它先實行一段時間如果有需要再去調未來有需要再調整的我們再來做相關的一個按照財政部的版本來做相關的一個審議還是讓它實行一段期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
466.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
490.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
現在請市長 阮市長部長跟副市長請回好 請阮市長市長 我們今天討論的有關國安基金規模的上限從五千萬變成一兆我們除了現在因為美國對等關稅算為塵埃落定所以我們國安基金在市場內過去有八次進場的紀錄是 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
492.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
510.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那從簡報上這些數字上來看平均投入金額大概約445億投入的最短的天數第一次的一個五天只有五天而已以及這個第八次最長是275天一次是在2000年一次是在2022年 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
513.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
533.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那次長你對外曾經提到希望像公股銀行借款的融資上限從2000億提高到7000億你對外曾經這樣說過這個不是我提的不是你提的沒關係但是我們股市的運作除了黑天鵝的因素外其實漲漲跌跌它很正常 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
534.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
556.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
很正常所以現在外資約在我們台股四成左右但是這些資金本來每天就是有進有出如果說怕這些外資會非常嚴重的影響股市那國安基金不是每天要進場嗎所以我要問次長為何需要提高高達我們進場平均值445億約15倍的資金金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
561.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
579.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
跟委員報告我們現在那個目前的可以用的金額在2000億這個是25年前那時候就訂了但是剛才委員也自己也提到就是說目前的我們的股市的規模不是規模 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
581.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
607.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那麼那時候在89年的時候那時候大概是9.2兆那現在已經達到97兆所以成長10.5倍那這是一個那第二個外資當時是只有8.14%這個我都知道了其實我們講就是你現在要增加這個金額你要去依照去估算過去最適合的金額是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
608.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
617.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
他們看這8次的經驗最多一次的投資是1227億最少是7.56億所以米兆過去的經驗看來要從5000億增加到1兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
622.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
649.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這合不合理啊我跟委員報告過去大家都講是說都沒有用到兩千億那因為兩千億它是一個天花板所以我們在操作的時候就會考慮到說我們會不會就是超過這個天花板因為操作的時候會非常的保守我知道大概因為時間的關係因為這一次的修法因為你們沒有版本行政院沒有版本雖然沒有版本但我知道我最後想問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
650.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
667.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
因為剛才賴氏保委員也提到是不是我們要先就先開公聽會廣納專家學者及社會各界的意見作為我們修法的參考這個當然 這個你同不同意這個看委會的決議了不過我跟委員報告雖然是說這一次沒有院版但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
668.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
692.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這一次雖然是委員提的版本但是行政院就這個案子來講我們表達非常清楚明確的立場所以對這個案子完全沒有模糊的沒有模糊的空間所以我們對這個案子來講所以你是贊成這一次的修法你是贊成基本上是就整個我們就國安基金來講不用再召開公聽會了 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
694.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
702.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這個看委員會的決議了如果可以都聽取的話也許是個好事好 謝謝我是建議還是開一下比較好了好 謝謝謝謝澤偉 謝謝市長 |