| IVOD_ID |
166280 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166280 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-4-36,20-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制、財政委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制、財政委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-10T10:20:10+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-10T10:30:38+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:28 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c09ae86c0a1cc98f8da68b3568d601d3dc44a569ea12001d97849987ba386f8b6b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鍾佳濱 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:20:10 - 10:30:38 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查監察院函請審議「審計部組織法第七條、第十條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。） |
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好 那有請 欸 等一下 來 中央兵委員來主席 在場委員 先進列席總局幹事長 官員會長 工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生先讓那個 沈記長 喘口氣我們請 權敘部的王司長和任總的廖專門委員好 權敘部法規司司長還有任總的專委 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
53.258 |
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好來請教一下我看全序部市長我看你們的意見第一你們對於政治政務副省級長你們是尊重嗎那你們對於所謂的這個檢任官二級單位主管的原額設置你們好像覺得比例上不符合我們相關的規定是不是相關是70%目前會變成150% |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
55.639 |
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73.484 |
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但是我看你们提到14条的部分你们认为这个所谓的相较于地方直辖市的一级机关首长那么中央的三级机关首长与他上属横平嘛所以列12到13之等你们觉得OK吗是 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
74.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
90.214 |
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那所以你們看起來的意見只有一個地方是認為說不應該定在我們上級機關的組織法應該定在下級機關的組織規程嘛是那審議長都清楚了嘛所以應該不會有那麼大的一個情緒啦是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
91.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
112.918 |
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你們認為這樣是好那我們再確認一下因為我看到我們今天很難得我們看到考試院跟這個監察院的機關之間的意見不同但是我看也還好來我現在問問任總來任總專委請教一下我看你們的意見對於政治政務副審計長也沒有也尊重嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
113.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
130.727 |
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是委員那你們認為我們行政院有一個韓式對不對106年1月24號那認為監察院考證與行政組織相似也定有組織法所以呢你們認為呢可以參照這個基準法規的規定是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
132.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
156.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
報告委員 原則上是省紀部這邊的修法他有說要參考基準法的規範那因為我們這邊是說如果是用準用的規範的話是要全部適用但是如果有特殊例外的話可以續明他的理由好 那特殊例外您特別提到中華民國憲法第104條 省紀長有總統提名這個跟其他的行政院的一級機關二級行政機關的時候很不同對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
158.044 |
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172.078 |
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所以在行政院二級機關首長他底下所轄的這些三級機關跟省紀長他作為很特殊的跟行政院二級機關所不同的地方你認為可以特殊考量嗎看起來是這樣吧是 就看省紀部他的好 謝謝好 那我們請省紀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
174.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
179.824 |
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兩位先回 沈記長這樣聽得清楚嗎 他們都沒反對啦沒反對喔你聽說他們你們這個沈記長是有總統提名由立法院同意來任命的比起行政院的二級機關的首長來講這個還不一樣喔 你還特別喔所以你底下的這些下級機關怎麼設置 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
197.108 |
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221.528 |
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是應該可以有另外的考量好 那我現在開始問本題了首先我們看第一頁來 還是從事我每次問審計長都要把審計部門講一遍你的職長呢是事後權 是監督預算的執行審核財務的收支還有要怎麼樣要去稽查不法跟不中於職務的行為要考核效能 要核定責任 對不對對所以這三個是你的重要責任嘛你常常提醒啦 所以我練之再之 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
222.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
240.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
是啦 是啦 你应该比我熟啦我们往下看来 你们这组执法第7条第10条第14条第1条呢第7条是讲说是副省进场二至三人目前我们的规定是一至三人嘛其中一人得列为常务嘛你们现在两人都是常务嘛所以可以征涉一个证物的嘛OK 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
241.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
247.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那再來呢你們提到這個審計法第10條你們的審計官現在問題來了審計官你們希望擴增審計的人力那還有審計官要兼任地方的審計處長好 顯然的你要擴充人力你要讓你的審計官可以去地方擔任處長是這樣的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
260.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
289.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
他本來就是損機關就是監地方處就監任但是我們看到其他機關的意見是說你幹嘛用監任你用專任的啊專任的夠不夠這是我損系的特性因為我的損系是要出去查賬要出去查賬好 那我請教一下他的特性好 來 沈議長你聽過三個臭皮匠勝過一個諸葛亮有沒有聽過有聽過嘛那如果是三個臭皮匠勝過一個諸葛亮那如果對上兩個諸葛亮你覺得哪邊比較贏 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
290.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
311.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個沒算過沒有算過 好 那你認為你跟副審計長誰是諸葛亮 誰是臭皮匠都扮演了相互的角色我是意思說如果是審計長是諸葛亮你有兩個副審計長現在你希望有多一個副審計長有三個臭皮匠就可以勝過你這個諸葛亮你同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
312.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
339.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
應該同意他們都比我有經驗老到好 但是呢如果說你把你兩個副審計長都變成跟你一樣的是諸葛亮你還需要第三個臭皮匠嗎這是這樣啦 大家這是數學問題啦因為委員在其實啊 我就這個增加一個委員在財政委員會希望我加強監督地方我想出的方法之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
339.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
349.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以這個不是三個臭皮匠也不是兩個諸葛亮的問題是因為要有特殊業務的關係你第三個副審計長是要證物是要列為什麼數位審計對不對所以因為職長不同專長不同所以你希望就像說不能只靠兩個諸葛亮你還有什麼要照雲要有關羽有不同的專業負責是不是這樣的意思對好所以呢既不是諸葛亮也不是臭皮匠你要增加副審計長有照雲 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
367.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
393.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這個奧子棚有關雲場的來協助好不好OK 好 我們下看來 那你擴增審計人力因為你認為政府收支上升業務複雜化還有跨越跟前瞻的審計所以根據目前我們要很嚴格 好像請教一下如果你地方的審計長說哎呀 不用增加那麼多人啦不用增加10個人審計長 你不用幫我增加10個人你只要增加5個人薪水通通給我我就幫你把事情幹好 你覺得有可能嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
394.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
413.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為不可能 因為現在整個損盡事啊平均才十三個 十四個損盡人力所以是人力不夠 不是能力不夠對不對基本人力都不足會造成我確定一下 你認為是人力不夠不是能力不夠 也不是薪水不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
414.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
429.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好 那我問一下假如今天有立法委員說立法院組織法給我8到14個助理要花掉50萬一個月那你不用給我那麼多助理你50萬給我我就可以把事情搞定你覺得這樣符合你剛剛講的是人力的問題還是能力的問題還是薪水的問題你覺得勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
434.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
460.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
助理在立法案已經形成非常重要的一環是和立法案息息相關幫助立法委員幫助國家處理很多事情所以助理的東西我們還是要善待所以呢你認為是應該維持助理8到14名的編制這樣的人力而不是說把他的錢交給立委統籌運用就可以達到同樣的立法效能是這樣的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
461.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
464.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
要做一個訴求 要順書所立不能說處理了這個事情造成發生了另外一個問題所以我們這樣的話反而會這個對整個功能或怎麼樣要去考慮評評非常重要那又有委員的修法要把這個改成補助兩個字補助補助在我們審計當中它的會計屬性是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
488.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
502.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
補助就是說 這個是多少給予補助要不要審計 要不要做平均核銷 簡均核銷任何國家的財動 國家的資源 我們都審計 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
506.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
525.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
來 我要看主計處 主計總處 黃政委員是不是所有政府的補助款 這個科目下的補助款都要列入檢據核銷 是不是是 好 可以 謝謝 來 我們看一下 來 陳議長你看一下目前的修法是說通通這些50萬一個月的助理費用交給立委統籌運用免檢據核銷這個符合我們主計跟審計相關的規定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
530.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
547.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
免檢劇核銷但是他的錢到哪裡我們還是會注意我們在實際的立場還會注意你說法律規定免檢劇核銷你們還可以查到他的用途你們這麼厲害那既然這麼厲害通通不用檢劇核銷你們用心電感應就知道這個錢有沒有花去了是不是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
548.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
573.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
因為有免檢劇核銷啊有這樣的話我們會尊重立法立法院如果寫免檢劇核銷你們也尊重但是你們要用心電感應去了解委員有沒有自肥是不是因為我會用數位審計你會用數位審計所以你要告訴陳毅任委員如果委員要自肥你就算法律訂了免檢劇核銷我審計長還是有辦法用透過我的數位查到你的錢流到哪裡去是這樣的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
574.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
591.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個免檢劇核銷可能要慎重要慎重好來最後的結論對於未來如果立法有提到補助款用免於檢劇核銷的幽靈補助如何進行有效審計你說你很厲害你有數位審計三個月內給我提出一個報告告訴我你怎麼做好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
592.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
619.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
可以嗎因為啊 還沒有成為事實我們都不用成為事實啊我只要本院有可能立一個法補助款免減去核銷就已經寫在新聞上面了你要趕快提早因應啊能夠雙贏好 雙贏 那你提早因應 萬一過了你三個月也到了 報告就寫出來了我們就可以告訴立法院說立法院委員陳玉珍 你不用先你做得到嗎 三個月提出一個報告能夠讓他放心 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
619.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
625.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
好啦 那我就問問嘛你有效審計監督你做得到嗎 三個月 提個報告給我們好不好好 謝謝 |