| IVOD_ID |
166274 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166274 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-4-36,20-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制、財政委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制、財政委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-10T09:57:18+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-10T10:11:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:13:42 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a128e1119a2c25c0ce5c8d4b3e7730baa68b3568d601d3dc44a569ea12001d97b75eef7241a86e735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
沈發惠 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:57:18 - 10:11:00 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查監察院函請審議「審計部組織法第七條、第十條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。） |
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主席我們先請沈記長好來沈記長有請謝謝委員好沈記長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
27.796 |
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我們今天的議程安排有關於我們的審計部組織法有三個條文的修正是第七條 第十條跟第十四條三個條文修正這三個條文大概分成三個部分我們就來討論剛剛前面委員大概大家都非常關心有關於第七條的修正就是你們要增設一位增設一位政務 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
56 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
66.568 |
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政府副首長的這個案子你們有立法理由你們提出很多為什麼你們認為應該要增設簡單講就是你們認為說現在兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
70.512 |
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88.625 |
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副首長是不夠的啦所以應該有第三個啦這是第一個問題啦要不要有第三個副首長第二個問題是那這個增設的這個是要正路還是要長路這個這又是剛剛我這又是大家所關注的另外一個問題但是我比較關注的是是說齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
90.307 |
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109.648 |
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就法字面來講我這今天很大概就是看我們今天所有列席單位的意見那除了主計處主計總署以外我看到這個我們的這個人事行我們的人總跟我們的這個權序部好像都對你們今天三條修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
112.15 |
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131.919 |
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在我看已經是蠻強烈的意見了在過去就是有關相關的這個組織法規的修改的時候也許榮獲各個其他部會 榮獲有不同的看法但是以這麼強烈的態度來對你們這次的修法提出質疑在我看是罕見 |
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133.502 |
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151.98 |
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其實很 也你有仔細看人總跟這個全序部的報告嗎有喔謝謝他們提供寶貴的意見今天我們人總是由我們專門委員是不是能夠麻煩你上台一下我們這次把大家的意見對一對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
158.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
170.743 |
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簡單講我們現在目前的修法這次你們審計部所提出來第七條有關於這個這個機關副首長的部分你們的立法那個審計長你們的這個立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
172.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
194.748 |
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的理由根據是依照這個中央行政機關組織基準法第19條嘛對不對原來第19條這個二級機關得知副首長一人至三人其中一人應列常務職務其餘應列政務職務但是你們現在是相反你們是只有一個政務兩個常務所以你們跟事實上跟19條第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
196.489 |
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215.595 |
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這個第二項的規定也不盡相同那更重要的你們引用了第38條啦你們引用了說本法與行政院以外之中央機關準用之你們認為因為這一條第38條所以你們可以準用第49條第二項 對不對我這樣理解是你們的態度嘛 對不對好 那我現在就請問這個任總 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
219.568 |
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235.044 |
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我看你們的書面報告其實蠻簡單的只有三頁而已但是你們的意見卻非常的明確你們認為剛剛我們沈記長所講的這樣子的準用方式用第38條來準用第19條第二項你們有什麼樣的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
236.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
264.298 |
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報告委員那準用的部分就是原則上依照法務部相關的見解就是相關的法規在準用的過程裡面要嘛就一部全部適用要嘛就沒有準用的概念那因為我們裡面有提到就是說這個準用的部分如果有特殊情況的話它是可以予以續名的那再加上沈記長跟一般的部會他的那個首長任命的情況其實不一樣他是憲法保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
264.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
291.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
的部分所以這個部分如果審計部這邊他認為在相關的政務部的副所長設置上有他的特殊旅遊一樣可以續名他的特殊情況和以上簡單講我看你們的書面意見你們就是說這個如果你要用第30你要用第38條來准用的話你應該是全部都要准用而不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
293.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
305.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
現在你的講法意思就是說如果你只要挑一條準用那你要續名理由要嘛就是你們所有的你們的組織法你們就應該要準用就我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
306.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
322.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
就全部來准用這個中央行政機關的組織基準法要不然你現在只挑其中一條要准用你要續名你的理由為什麼你要這樣是不是大概意思是這樣吧那這個簡單講就是你們認為認為這個其實像用第38條准用的其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
336.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
364.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
過去是主要是考試院對不對考試院我們考試院就行政機關以外的這些這些部會主要是考試院那考試院這個他的性質跟行政院組織相近那也設有這個部會這個部會組織型態的附屬機關所以你們認為說現行考試院跟這個所屬機關都已經準用基準基準法制定他們已經全面準用基準這個這個組織基準法的適用了但是你們監察院卻沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
365.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
376.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
你們這個屬於監察院的我們的審計部卻沒有都沒有准用但你們今天只挑這一條簡單講你們整個中央組織基準法你們現在就挑第19條第二項來准用 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
379.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
403.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這部分是不是請這個沈議長你要不要說明一下你們是其他的這個有關於這個我們整個整個這個中央組織計準法八號委員是這樣齁我只有一個我的目標出來說我的預算從11兆到27兆的監督規模我的發展方向是要從監督左向洞察 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
406.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
429.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
不好意思 因為我沒有注意到說我們今天給的時間比較短那我簡單講那我知道 反正因為你有書面在序名裡有但是你要看喔其實人總跟權序部對你們這條修法都非常非常的保留我講保留已經很客氣了其實都不同意你們這樣子的引用法律這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
430.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
445.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
第二個有關於這個審計組織法有關於今天的這個組織法的第十條跟第十四條的修正這個他們意見更大這個這個全序部的意見更大全序部我們今天是是這個師長 黃師長 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
452.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
462.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
好好委員長簡單講齁你們的這個這個第10條跟第14條的修法來很不好意思佔用到一點時間又沒有注意到今天我們的這個發言時間齁縮短這麼多這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
466.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
491.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
你們第10條 簡單講你們就是增加人啦先等一下 先審計長 對不對對 希望增加人審計你們從61到91增加到85到115對不對稽查你們從原本的31到61人你們增加到52到79人那另外這個更重要的 到第14條的時候你們把這個值等做了變更 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
494.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
506.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那我先不講這個人數的增加的部分就第14條就第14條裡面增列第三項原本第14條是說審計處事之組織另依法律定制 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
507.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
517.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這個是原本的第三項你們把第三項改成第四項就是說除了第三項以外的其他的有法律定制就是這個授權所訂定的法律就是審計處審計處事組織通責對不對原本的法制是這樣就是這個授權它就是審計處事組織通責 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
526.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
554.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
但是審計初次通則裡面第八條第九條原本把你們這裡的這個審計官原本第八條第九條規定是十到十三值等原本這個按照組織通則是這樣子但是因為民國七十六年實施這個公務人員任用法公務人員任用法實施之後前進部是不是這樣子我現在描述的如果有講錯麻煩你指正我一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
555.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
575.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這是因為這個76年1月公務員任用法施行之後公務員任用法的第六條他就授權了訂定中央機關職務的列等表所以現在其實你們是依照列等表在列職等不是依照審計處組織通知在列職等對不對是不是這樣 審議長現在目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
576.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
604.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
目前是因為前夕部有一個列登表我們本來法例規定我是十三值等但是前口也都十三值等本來法例就是審計處事組織通則用一個行政命令把我列成所有值等我向前夕部要說我法就十三值等你為什麼所有的機關都十三值等為什麼把我列成所有值等他來一個公文你趕快修法所以我就修法所以今天才站在這裡錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
607.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
630.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我跟你講今天的這個爭議有兩個爭議啦有 全系部不同意兩個部分第一個是說認為你們不應該用組織法不應該把這一條在組織法裡面修正你們應該是要去修正審計處處事組織通則你們應該 因為他法已經授權了嘛這一個因為那個已經十三指等了要我怎麼修那我只有問那個全系部長那我是不是修到組織法 他說可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
634.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
652.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
好 沈記長我跟你講所以我在最後 我簡單的結論就是這樣就是說你今天這個修法其實沒有得到人總跟權序部這些相關相關的這些機關你們沒有得到他們的共識大家沒有這個共識所以你們在沒有共識的情況下你們就提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
653.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
668.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
全新部有他的理由我剛講兩個部分第一個是形式上面你們不應該用組織法來修修這個值等這是他們第一個意見第二個意見實質內容你們要把它全部通通提升為十三值等他們也有意見因為你們這個違反了你們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
671.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
682.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我的華 我的通則是十三十等所有的機關都十三十等所以你的通則 他們的意思啦欸 怎麼會 我都人啊 都是一條邊的 他們派來的啊我知道 沈議長 他們的意見就是認為你們應該這個組織通則應該要去修改應該要去修改 特別全區部是不是這個意見就是說他們不應該用組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
695.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
719.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
但是我有打電話給他的部長 他的部長說可以因為我的通走已經十三組等了 你要叫我怎麼修不好意思 我顫到你的時間齁這個齁 你打電話給他的部長 他部長所說的跟他們今天寫在書面白紙黑字寫的意見是不一樣的啦齁我損系部今天會壓到這麼低啊他們多數前系部的 多數派來的人事主任啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
720.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
746.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
因為齁 我最後講結論因為各機關職稱 機關等的這個原額配置標準的這個配置準則裡面齁他的第九條第九條第一項第五款裡面他有針對一二級機關主管機關的檢認非主管職跟這個二級單位主管的原額配置的比例他有規定應該是70%而已你們現在修法之前你們就已經到達80% |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
749.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
767.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這個啊修法之後會到達150%這個人數他是怎麼算出來我不知道我所有的結論啊現在佔比只有百分之十二我要去查國家的法照我要查少主化我要查氣候變遷這個要五到七等能查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
768.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
782.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那個沈縣長 我跟你講 我個人我個人並沒有說在這裡質疑你的修法你都一直幫我 但是我我的人事主任是你對沈縣長很不爽都是他派來的人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
784.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
803.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
派來 我要修這個法的時候 我要告訴人事主任一定要在法的範圍裡面來修今天修來了 他還寫這麼多意見我有什麼辦法這就是我今天答詢的主旨 就是說怎麼會在修法裡面全序部跟人總寫這麼大的意見 在修法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
804.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
805.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我相信這個議題應該等一下很多委員都在旁邊 |