| IVOD_ID |
16625 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16625 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-28 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-28T08:30:42+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-28T13:10:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:39:18 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6857f6742991cbc857f29fb70b9de5aca04bd9360bdedb08522e6e8806487bcf41e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-28T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:42 - 13:10:00 |
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嗯 |
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哦哦 |
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嗯嗯嗯 |
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by bwd6 |
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報告委員會 出席委員人數9人 已足法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 現在開會 請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
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1795.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
立法院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第七次全體委員會議一路時間114年4月23日星期三9時至13時51分4月24日星期四9時至13時46分地點群賢樓801會議室出席委員陳委員昭芝等15人列席委員林委員德福等22人列席官員衛生福利部部長邱太元等相關人員主席蘇兆吉委員清泉 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1796.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1824.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
4月23日報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請衛生福利部部長財政部次長就國家社會福利政策裁員檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情形進行專題報告並被質詢本日會議由衛生福利部部長及財政部政務次長阮清華報告後委員陳昭芝等21人提出質詢均經衛生福利部部長及財政部政務次長及各相關主管等即席答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1825.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1833.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
委員林楚英及林德福所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1840.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1858.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
4月24日邀請衛生福利部部長農業部次長經濟部次長外交部次長行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表行政院食品安全辦公室主任針對美豬美牛進口零關稅且如何保障國人食品安全及農民權益進行專題報告並備質詢本日會議由衛生福利部部長農業部常務次長杜文珍經濟部政務次長姜文若 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1867.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1891.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
及行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表顏慧欣報告後委員陳昭芝等21人提出質詢軍經衛生福利部部長行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表農業部常務次長經濟部政務次長及外交部北美司副司長焦國祐及各相關主管等即席答覆委員徐新穎及廖偉祥所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1892.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1902.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1904.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1923.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
好 謝謝議事錄已宣布完畢 但是在場不到兩我們等一下再來做議事錄確認我們本週的會議審為邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況並被質詢現在介紹在場委員及列席官員我們第一位代表是陳昭智成委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1927.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1954.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
接下來介紹官員環境部部長 彭錦鳴謝謝企業變遷署署長 蔡玲儀謝謝資源循環署署長 賴盈盈化學物質管理署署長 謝彥儒環境管理署署長 顏旭明國家環境研究院院長 劉忠勇縱規司司長 洪淑信 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1956.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1971.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
環境保護司司長徐淑芷謝謝大氣環境司司長黃偉明謝謝水質保護司司長王月斌謝謝監測資訊司司長張順興秘書處處長梁婉玲秘書人事處處長楊良斌還有中央處處長陳培智 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1986.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2000.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
會計處處長陳敬欣統計處處長侯敏玲還有法治處處長林芬好謝謝那我們接下來先請我們部長來做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2011.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2038.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
主席各位委員還有在座本鋪的同仁由環境部來進行這次的業務報告我們過去這一年自從520本人接任之後大概有五大成果第一個在氣候永續部分我們設定了減碳的目標然後也擴大碳盤查的對象然後碳費制度上路了這是我們去年非常辛苦的工作我們近期在推動高溫調適策略也建立了公部門永續長的聯盟而且我們綠領人員還結合了32個大學 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2040.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2055.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
進行正在培訓當中那支援循環廢墟去化部分呢包含了循環產業的整合上下游的整合SRF的白皮書解決了大家爭議的問題垃圾山裸露的處理現在正在進行當中還有我們推動一個小議題就是菸地不落地喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2056.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2078.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
然後另外大氣環境的部分呢我們把空品加鹽了所以目前的空品的確有時候會稍微跟以前有點不一樣這個是加鹽的結果我們也完成了空品政策白皮書希望在近期就會來對外正式的一個發布我們也成立了空氣品質的預報中心也規劃了未來我們要進行大氣衛星那在這個環境治理部分呢我們現在正在進行環評總體檢當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2079.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2107.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那對於廢水處理綠色轉型的提升還有我們PFAS相關的這個管制行動正在進行那公測呢也是我們希望未來提升的目標那跨界的合作呢其實我們很努力跨同溫層來推動環保不是在過去的這個同溫層的環保那例如說我們推動了跟體育賽事的環境友善已經有很多的所謂的運動賽事因為他們參與的人數比較多這是一個跟過去比較不一樣的地方那我們也正式在過去這一年內也跟三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2107.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2126.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
重要的頂大特別台大中大四大簽約未來還有更多的大學會來跟我們進行合作甚至我們也進行了國際的環保合作那我首先很簡單的記要我們在這個氣候治理方面呢環境部協助各部會重新訂立了國家減碳的新目標那這個目標呢就是28加減220302035是38加減2當然這個目標是非常難達到的但是我們現在是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2133.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2162.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
重整的一個部會我們會協助各個部會來完成那現在正在進行公聽程序當中我們希望年底能夠提出NDC 3.0那碳費的制度呢雖然遇到這個川普退出美國甚至還有這個關稅的這個衝擊的影響但是呢其實我們也找到各種的資源能夠來協助產業所以未來呢我們碳費在明年還是會如期的收集當中今年1月1號開始這個我們會很堅定但是有些受影響的企業我們絕對會加大力道來協助他們輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2163.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2181.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那我們淨領的目標不變我們會有三個概念一個是綠色供應鏈這個希望台灣可以打造的另外一個呢就是雙軸轉型把產業在這波受到壓力的情況下能夠算力做轉型成功然後另外一個呢就是人力的資金還有資金來挺綠領這個是我們政府現在正在做的事情我們會加大力道來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2183.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2204.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
至於說受到衝擊的影響企業我們已經跟金管會跟經濟部都有建立一個平台希望透過銀行融資的信保相關的這個資源等等來協助他們那至於說政府設置永續漲的部分這個也是過去沒有的一個做法我們現在政府呢都在進行碳排查當中進行深度減的簡化那其實這個也結了不少的電 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2205.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2231.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
另外一個零碳的建築或是綠色採購尤其綠色採購這是我們強化的一點未來政府的綠色採購現在由我們跟公共工程委員會正在制定當中我們希望能夠打造公部門永續的組織和文化那在環境治理的方面環評制度其實是大家最關心的一個制度的確這個經歷了30年有一些可以討論在改進的地方現在我們由民間的單位跟我們一起來合作來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2232.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2248.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們希望在今年下半年能夠有一個制度精進的一個草案進行可行性的延伤我們也不排除明年會來修法那至於廢棄物去化的部分其實我們很努力希望能夠解決現在的一個大問題就是裸露垃圾還是大概有48處 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2249.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2272.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
還是住在附近的居民也是相當辛苦的我們希望在明年年底現在數字有開始在動了但是我們預期是下半年因為隨著我們的一些計畫的發包可以快速的進行此外我們會跟檢警官合作特別是跟法務部相關的警察警政署一起來合作打擊環保犯罪目前也有一個很顯著的一個成果那未來我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2273.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2296.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
要解決這個問題一定要兩個法一個是資源循環推動法還有廢棄物清理法這個跟所有委員報告這個部分我們現在已經在收尾了因為這個過去是分散在各個部會那我們現在把它收回來的確各個部會有一些不一樣的意見但是我們現在大概已經重整快要完成了希望我們希望是近期可以公告然後下個會期送到委員會請委員來幫我們審議喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2299.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2327.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那另外一個呢我們其實很希望扶植循環產業能夠不法的氣質因為過去這個產業呢或許大家會覺得過去產業發展的不健全很多的黑道等等其實目前來看的話如果我們經由我們的法令能夠進行這個措施完整的話它是一個產業而且可以幫助台灣另外一個呢是針對不法的氣質一定要加重刑法加重罰則這個是我們的堅決的態度那其他的部分呢我們本部呢也把 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2328.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2344.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
現在正在行政院在審核當中我們把金字市改名叫做環境資訊科技師也希望說把我們的這個師的組織改造能夠創造新的方式這個簡稱就是AI師未來我們希望用這樣的方式來推動進行那第三個呢就是淨零率生活的部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2344.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2362.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我舉一個這個很重要的例子就是廁所其實廁所台灣的廁所我們是先進國家可是廁所畢竟還是很老舊那我這邊的廁所是日本的這個透明的廁所其實他就做得非常好有十幾個標值四番的這個廁所我們希望未來可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2362.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2381.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
透過如廁文化的提升或是硬體的改善逐步的建立起來但是我們預算也很有限但是我們希望先請一個文化能夠來推動那第二個就是空氣污染我們現在空氣污染其實去年降到了12.8但是我也坦承其實我們遇到一個深水區要往下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2381.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2397.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
只有打造跟淨零合在一起配合所以我們其實空品政策的白皮書近期完成之後現在最後在論稿當中就可以對外發布有助於我們凝聚共識來訂定第三期下一個階段的空污防治的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2398.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2428.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
委員上次有很多關心大使的這個系統其實我們也特別坦承過去我們可能會忽略了這一塊那當然目前我們也有一些檢舉等等我們也正在調查當中我們希望未來環境部可以主動接手回來能夠讓大家能夠安心不要有這種所謂的偽造數據的一個情況發生那水污染的整治方面我們現在正在啟動水污染的總量管制2.0針對8條流域優先來實施那特別是例如說我們透明淡水河等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2428.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2444.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
淡水河其實我們就會邀請各個部會來進行那個已經召開了一些咖啡館來能夠來匯集意見當中我們主要是針對一些新興的污染的一個河川能夠趕快來協助它整治那這個整治基本上很多都是畜牧廢水的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2445.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2463.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那這個都是要一些新的方法來解決那至於在這個國家安全化學與韌性永續計畫部分這裡面最重要的是PFARSPFARS那這個部分我們的辦法已經公布了其實增列了我們的目前所有的管制都是跟國際同步那特別是說我們也增加了這個化學環境的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2463.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2481.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
害蟲中心因為隨著全球暖化這個化學害蟲會越來越多那我們其實也有兩中心實對那未來也會再擴充我們希望能夠來增強我們國家因應化學毒災的應變的體系的提升那未來我們一年最重要的工作如這邊所示其中有兩個就是我上禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2481.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2503.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
在總統府氣候變遷對策委員會所說的有一項就是說我們希望打造綠色台灣的品牌這個會跟經濟部一起合作另外一個呢是因應關稅之後的這個所謂的這個國家的稀有貴金屬跟稀土等等的問題我們希望能夠有籌組一個關鍵及戰略資源的國家隊能夠來協助這個是我們大的核心的概念其他的部分呢包含了我們希望未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2504.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2515.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
今年下半年就要來準備跟一些產業一起合作台灣的ETSETS就是總量管制的排放交易我們希望在社會溝通之下我們提出台灣的NDC 3.0就是說到2035我們減量目標那這個目前我們已經開了幾場未來這幾個月會有非常多場 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2521.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2547.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
也會進行大規模的社會溝通跟青年跟各界來做對話那希望在COP30在巴西會議之前能夠提出來台灣的2035的NDC3.0的減碳計畫那我們檢測 減塑的政策我們5月呢會在這個日內瓦有召開一個國際的限塑的公約雖然我們目前預期它可能不會有太大的成果但是我們覺得我們過去提的這個限塑 減塑應該有到了調整的必要我們會重新再接 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2548.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2569.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
到五月過後我們會跟各界一起再來溝通提出台灣新的檢縮的政策那另外一個是百億的綠色成長基金這個是我們跟國發會爭取的預計在五月下旬會正式對外來發布預計在第二季到第三季的時候正式來營運那另外一個呢福祉產業我們現在透過修正循環跟修正廢青兩個雙法能夠來提出這個產業那其實這個也是源頭減量一個方式綠領培育我們現在正在進行當中預期呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2577.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2596.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
可能還會再擴大由於本部做了這些工作其實很多的部會也願意跟我們合作我們預期會擴大另外一個是組織變革因為也跟委員坦承環境部是所有14個部裡面最小的部人力也是最少空間也是最小的部我們也希望我們部門也可以再調整能夠重新再出發 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2597.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2616.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
也這個也需要跟行政院還有各界來爭取一些預算我們希望自我可以再提升另外一個呢是我們也打造了很多的聯盟跟民間部門一起在一起努力所以基本上我們希望我們未來的決策不是公務們自己想是跟大家一起想那我們會來協助整合最重要的是跨部會合作像這個畜牧糞尿 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2617.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2642.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
或是營建產出的物像營建剩餘土石方或是營建廢棄物這個部分我們也有一些期待希望今年可以努力來解決這個問題以上是我未來一年重要的工作也請委員可以給我們指教謝謝好 謝謝部長第一次有部長報告委員給你拍手的確實報告得很詳細然後這個議會報告也做得這麼精細這個必須要肯定好不好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2647.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2663.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那我們是不是因為修章委到了,我們是不是來先做一下上次會議議事錄的確認?委員有沒有什麼意見?有沒有?沒有?那我們就確認好,謝謝好,現在做以下的宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2665.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2690.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
有關本市會議各項詢問資料均列入紀錄刊登公報那第一本會委員訓練時間6.5分鐘列席委員4.5分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如有詢問質詢請於商會前提出預取不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘原則11點半處理因此提案10點半截止這個截止所案那現在請登記第一位委員陳昭思委員來做發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2695.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2697.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
謝謝主席有請部長來請部長委員早部長早剛剛我也有鼓掌謝謝謝謝委員部長這個兩年前陳交法立委他曾經召開了這個好幾次的那個記者會他踢爆這個當時的那個叫環保署環境督察總隊隊長李建鈺的惡行那在社會壓力下這個當時環境這個環境部終於成立調查小組那後來 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2724.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2751.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
也證實這個陳立委他揭發的他不是空穴來風因為現在李建玉不但被監察院彈劾而且上週還被檢察官收押二郎雖已若往但正義仍會還沒有換回來為什麼我這樣講呢因為當初包庇他的人到現在都沒有得到應有的懲罰雖然這件事不是發生在您的任期內但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2752.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2770.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
部長你現在這個位置上你只好蓋瓜承受你同意嗎我同意好那就謝謝部長好部長那部長你看看這是監察院的彈劾報告這個是比過去什麼勞動部什麼我們請他做衛福部做報告他們都沒有像監察院做這麼好這些都是公開的資訊請你稍微瀏覽一下簡單你看有多誇張時間從108年開始而且他對身邊的屬下學員甚至廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2779.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2794.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
然後他的地點不只是辦公室私密室甚至這個高鐵飛機上甚至在餐會上中目睽睽之下都進行這個明目張膽的騷擾那這幾年受害的人在監察院報告至少11個 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2796.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2811.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
可是我相信一定不止這個數字因為根據所有研究報告都說霸凌、性騷、性侵這個都是冰山一角啦因為很多人是不敢沒有那個勇氣站出來這個申訴請問部長你稍微看過這個資料嗎我都看過你看過好謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2812.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2832.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那我們來看一下李建宇被姦談約談的辯詞對於是否性騷女同仁他說我的型個性較為外放穿著比較帥氣也會關心女性同仁只要對方拒絕我一定不會做這件事你知道這個邏輯是什麼對方拒絕我一定不會做表示我會做是因為對方沒拒絕 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2833.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2856.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
然後他會是辯解說這是我的壞習慣但我沒那個意思對方一定是跟我關係比較好我才會那麼熟悉去碰觸他性騷擾還能如此理直氣壯部長那我最憤怒的就是至少有三位受害人他舉證歷歷的辯持說李建鈺竟然不思悔改他檢討的是被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2857.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2868.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
他說為什麼在我任內沒有反應等到我離開的時候才說我的行為不會過分啊為什麼當時不說部長這句話你聽不下去嗎聽不下去OK謝謝你聽不下去那我想問你你為什麼聽不下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2873.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2890.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
因為這個是基本一個做人的一個原則而且性平這個是一個基本的態度我覺得他在整個證詞裡面我看到的他是完全是不符合的部長那我再跟您說為什麼他不敢說因為他們說他們不敢講為什麼任內他不敢講因為巴佩秋後算帳就是說有 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2894.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2908.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
一個人可以這樣子去做背後一定有更大的官威或力量在支撐著他包庇他而且李金明他很大耶位高權重督察總隊隊長他的下屬要有多大的勇氣才敢站出來部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2910.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2925.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
監察院的談核報告有提揭露有兩個同仁在調查報告裡面都表示畏懼在提起申訴後在職務上被刁難或是說會被報復這種心理壓抑而且調查期間他還在職那萬一申訴不成他以後怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2927.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2941.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
他們就這樣寫 我覺得監察報告真的是很棒這其他的部門如果遇到類似要好好學習所以他們根本不敢提申訴就這樣職場上遭到性騷擾性侵害的困境部長你能理解嗎我可以理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2942.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2961.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那我要講的就是為什麼不敢講一樣啊在之前台大這個婦產科名醫對女醫師的騷擾這些女醫師都等到專科醫師考完他也才敢講話也到專科醫師因為他可以在各個有權威嘛有這個分量他可以在後面的後續很多事情來為難他那之前這個衛福部主秘也是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2962.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2990.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
他一旦這個事發案發後他們才發現說其實已經行之多年而且對象是很廣的這個是一律的這個一律都是性騷霸凌等等都是如此那部長為什麼被害人有那麼擔心為什麼李建鈺能夠如此囂張一而再再而上而且多達十幾位的女性對他們對這十幾位人伸出狼爪而且時間長達很多年為什麼因為公部門被人家詬病的最 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2990.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3005.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
重要的一點叫做官官相護所以很不可思議的107年就有人向環保署陳情沒有回應108年直接向行政院陳情沒有回應所以李建宇有恃無恐行政院越來越誇張 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3006.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3035.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
受害人越來越多甚至112年6月喔他再次向環保署署長信箱陳情依然石沉大海直到反映給當時的陳嘉華立委召開記者會在社會壓力下才啟動調查所以我在這裡證明要向媒體各位朋友證明其實立法委員的存在是非常重要的監督行政部門的做法尤其在野黨的立委那部長請問這麼多年來誰在包庇誰在押案 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3037.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3052.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
誰讓這些受害者求助無門呢當時的署長張子敬當時的環保署主秘你現在的政務次長葉俊宏沒有責任嗎請部長回答好 報告委這個第一個是說這次他會被收押 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3053.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3075.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
是我們的系統讓同仁能夠放心所以其實我也我幾個月前介紹同仁說希望能夠對李建宇提告那我也請我們同仁所有的這個協助全部我們都無償的能夠來支持我們的同仁所以他也去提告了最後我很高興前一兩個一個多禮拜前看到首發的新聞那在這個同時呢其實我們也組成了一個委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3076.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3095.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那我必須跟委員報告我們組成了一個外部的委員會來檢討我們的所有的行政流程那的的確也提出了懲處名單那這個懲處名單呢有些人不在我們的部內的職務工作那有些人呢是還在所以基本上呢不在我們部內工作或是說他位階比較高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3095.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3117.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我們都有報到行政院也報到監察院他們來處理所以委員說的這個懲處的人員我們經由外部專家委員都有列出一些人員那這個我們也都送到監察院也讓行政院知道那這個過程當中我們行政院院長卓龍泰他也非常支持我該辦就辦因為所有外部委員出來的意見該怎麼樣的處罰我就照那個去做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3117.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3128.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
所以你調查的那個調查委員小組事實上是有多數是屬於外部委員會五個全部是外部委員我們是外部委員來調查我們當時的行政流程有沒有瑕疵 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3129.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3151.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
部長這個就是說這個是一個典範啦我必須說就是這個調查過程我也覺得很正面肯定那監察院幾天前說他有糾正環境部嘛要議處所以你也去做了但是他有提到說環境部除了口頭報告當然也有一些剛剛你提到說有一些懲處條這個名單但是我想問部長有包括張子敬跟葉俊宏嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3153.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3177.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那不是機密啊 有包括他嗎基本上有的有包括 有的有包括在裡面署長跟署密耶 當時的有一位的確是他沒有在職位上了他的確是有責任的那我們也報告行政院 因為他也退休了那另外一個呢 是到底是不是責任其實那個委員會有經歷詳細的討論過是誰有責任 誰看過這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3182.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3199.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
主密是擁有整個部門的這個機密資料的人這個調查本來是機密性的但是他是可以看這個資料這個主密現在是你的次長對 報告委員這個我們有詢問過因為這當時在整個處理這個程序當中是有在署長在 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3200.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3214.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
做這個決策的所以基本上當時我們最後委員會我也特別問過說是到哪一個城市有多少名單我都完全尊重那五位外聘的委員給我們提供的各種的建議那主秘不知情他也是這樣子跟著包庇啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3216.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3235.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
基本上這個處理是當時的署長還有相關的這個人事相關的政風的在處理的所以這個是當時的外部委員非常的清楚我要看一下到時候那個署程懲處名單我們是一定要了解的但是我想請教為什麼環境部只有口頭告誡你不能內部先處理嗎除了交給行政院之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3235.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3250.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
其實第一個報委員他們很多委員已經沒有在很多的相關人已經沒有在部內工作了所以基本上而且他當時的權責他的位階不是我們環境部可以懲處的名單我們沒有辦法處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3251.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3269.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我再請這個主席給我一兩分鐘部長你看一下這個東西左邊這張圖是受害人看到李建宇落網的新聞後他傳給當時的這個陳江華立委的訊息他感謝陳立委的關心這個案子也說他自己當年因為害怕不敢站出來這個據名檢舉但是他現在願意站出來因為當時他不敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3270.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3292.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
但是現在他願意了 部長你最近雖然已經落網但是應該還有更多受害者他沒有站出來了那部長如果你知道你願意為他們挺身而出嗎不要我們再去辦記者會了嗎不用不用了其實報告委員這個過程是一個非常長期的過程那我來的時候就一直宣告零容忍這個惡行很久了很久了而且我們也對於性侵的教育我們部內大概辦了16場我來做16場 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3294.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3321.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
所以基本上呢 讓同仁能夠放心 這是很重要的一環部長 你看這裡面這張圖 那是崔少哲朋友傳給我的我也轉達部長 崔少哲幹了今日的報導因為我認為彭部長 要肯定你喔謝謝他是有擔當的 這崔少哲自己來的喔但是他們很在意當年的包庇者沒有處理一樣嘛 跟我今天跟你談的時候也是這個 還是因此當時包庇所以後來有更多人受害嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3321.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3345.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
受害範圍更廣嘛所以包庇者很重要啊這個包庇者對包庇者懲處為什麼我說雖然他落網了當事人但是這個正義還沒有回來所以你看他們肯定你但是他覺得包庇者如果不處理這不是他們所見的我覺得一個人能夠長期做壞事而且能夠得逞尤其在職場包庇者是很重要的靠山 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3346.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3364.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
部長我相信你是有正義感的因為我對你這次的調查報告剛剛說明我是相當滿意但是受害者也這樣反應給我們所以我要跟部長說包庇者你一定要懲處一定要有適當的處分不是說你剛剛解釋當然你一直都沒提到名字但是我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3365.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3389.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
他們才是關鍵啊是是委員放心這個因為調查是有一定的程序不是說我誰有責任這是經過一個委員會那至於說他到底懲處誰因為有些的職位比較高這個不是我可以懲處的是上面那我也跟卓院長報告他全力支持然後後續應該會開會向環境部對這個新上岸的這一次的調查報告能夠作為所有行政部門的一個典範我們很期待謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3392.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3421.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
好 謝謝陳昭志委員 謝謝部長部長大家對你很肯定啦但是這個還是要提醒一件事情這件事情讓同仁感覺到是非常不幸也讓環保署當時環保署現在環境部是蒙羞啦然後我還是要特別提醒這個處理垃圾的機關基本上這個官位都不是很大但是權力都大到不行所以他現在隸屬在哪一個署你應該很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3422.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3427.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這個要小心了不要重蹈覆轍謝謝接下來請陳清威委員來做選擇主席委員還有各位官員好我請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3441.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3465.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
部長好部長你還記得去年7月剛上任的時候洪森漢委員有找你去體驗一日拾荒原嗎那我給你報告一個數據我覺得有可能會被低估不知道您是不是這樣認同這個列冊的拾荒者回收量佔全台總量的9%而清潔隊是10%你有覺得有可能被低估了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3466.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3493.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
的確是低估啦因為報告委員他最主要是說有些有些縣市的福利比較好所以他們不願意去申報這個我們有去調查過是那當時您在跟紅山委員體驗的時候就說過阿姨很辛苦所以你希望回到這個部裡要跟紅山委員一起討論要怎麼提升石荒原的勞工條件現在播放一下請助理播放一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3494.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3518.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
我们应该正视这一群底层的人的存在而一定也希望这种存在的讨论问题大家可以往往从高层的角度处理后也很谢谢五角班它要办法更进一步的进行回收的体系很希望网络上面的朋友可以跟我们一起关心这个疫情让这些底层的工作者有更尊严的合同条件我们才会有更好的资源回收跟更方便的城市 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3520.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3539.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
好那現在洪山委員已經不是委員了他已經是部長了嘛不過許多網友還持續關心這樣子的議題所以我去翻了一下環境部最近有沒有就實荒者的勞動條件這件事情跟勞動部來進行討論或是開會但是沒有欸這個議題還沒有跟洪部長對還沒有討論那你會考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3545.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3574.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
報告委員因為第一個是我們有去協調過這些事情然後有發現就是說有些死荒者因為有些地方的福利他的待遇比較好他就沒有來報我們這個東西因為我們有一些補助的方案所以這個是一個大的問題我們跟地方政府在協調當中那第二個呢在我們的這個回收基金的委員上面其實我們最近我有在最近你有承諾說要再加一個加一個對目前正在進行當中那下一任的委員應該就有這種所謂的代表會再進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3575.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3592.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
你會找NGO應該是支持就是所謂的這種死荒者的NGO相關的NGO請他們來進來反映真實的情況好那這邊我們稍微看一下因為從110年開始有看到資收關懷計畫的預算是逐年的下降那 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3593.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3613.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
怕你對於死亡者的保障還有福利是越來越少而且補助的人次保駕的收購經費也都呈現下降的趨勢那依據您剛講的說法是說你現在遇到了一個瓶頸就是有一些縣市條件比較好有一些比較不好所以你這個經費呈現下降的趨勢是這個意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3615.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3641.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
這個請我們署長來分析跟委員報告那這些人數我們是請地方他們去做一些調查然後讓他們把這個死亡者願意的就把他納為我們服務的對象因為現在你的列冊全台死亡人數是7283人但是真正有參與你的資收關懷計畫大概只有2370人所以如何你要讓這兩個可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3643.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3672.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
人數可以比較match這個可能是你要努力的任務啦是不是你有沒有什麼想法應該要怎麼做各位委員報告我們現在有一個計畫是進行比較普遍全面的調查那瞭解說他們為什麼沒有來的原因那這個調查是去應該是去年年底開始進行的那我想結果出來之後我們比較能夠瞭解好那初步的方向你覺得是是不是因為他們要兼顧他們的社福的身份是 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3673.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3694.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那因為那個社福這邊的規定就是如果你超過的話就是沒有辦法領到這個社福的這個錢那我們有跟他說我們有跟那個衛福協調過說有沒有辦法我們這個是低收入的我們是持荒者可是他說因為如果你要去例外的話就要在自己的法令裡面去做排除的條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3695.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3715.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
對 所以我想銜接一下剛剛那個短影片嘛因為您在洪聖翰委員擔任委員的時候而且他現在已經是部長就發現原來這件事如果要落實你可能需要跟勞動部還有剛剛署長提到的衛福部等於是三個地方要做橫向溝通才有辦法所以也希望很快可以看到你們三個部的會議記錄好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3716.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3733.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
好 謝謝委員因為這件事情最主要是第一個是費率要往上拉他們死荒者的費率我們會等於是這一期的委員我有特別指示要加入他們的代表進來就有機會充分的反映因為這也是當時他們的訴求之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3734.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3756.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
是 就給你看一下這是今年6月即將卸任的審議會委員嘛裡面有21個成員但對大家比較不能接受 可能裡面太多太多跟第一線比較不相關可能沒有那麼瞭解實際工作或是基層的聲音的人所以你要加一位我們會有一個所謂的團體的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3757.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3771.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那就是代表所謂的這個所謂這個資收戶的代表他們長期關心這個議題是因為我因為死亡阿嬤他們很辛苦所以我也不可能找一個阿嬤來所以基本上我們還會找一些關心這個族群的代表會幫他們爭取權益的來擔任委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3773.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3798.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
了解所以剛剛有講到說你造冊跟實際來做這個補助的人次差很多所以他們也有統計啦民團他們有統計說知道有這個資收關懷計畫的有八成八成的實況者根本就不知道這是一個蠻嚴重的警訊因此您要怎麼去提高他的能見度可以讓他們可以廣為知道是不是要多多跟這些民團來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3800.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3821.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
合作並且請他們加強幫忙宣導是嗎對對這個這個會加強那因為這裡面還有一個部分是因為這個執行都要靠地方縣市的環保局等於或是他們的社會局來來協助那這個部分我們會再跟地方在一起來溝通那不該委員特別指教的三個部會的協調我們會進行來進行好那我們也期待看到你們的合作好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3822.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3850.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
接下來因為很多人有關心最近對於這個基金或是國發基金的議題當然是特別敏感啦甚至牽涉到有B案的可能那您之前曾經來這邊做業務報告的時候有提到說2050淨零排放的目標下由政府帶動綠色投資是國際趨勢嘛因此日本有做綠色創新基金還有美國做降低通膨法案等等的所以我們也會提出一個官方的基金叫做綠色成長基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3851.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3867.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
當然其中投資的對象有包括資源循環的永續的前瞻還有能源儲能以及效率碳捕捉負碳技術等等等等的那這個招標是2月7號公告3月11開標都有按照時程嗎對都有按照時程 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3870.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3887.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
然後基金總規模是100億元嘛對 100億分10年 10年來完成這個事情好 因為之前我們獲得的消息是綠色成長基金專案的辦公室應該要在去年2024年11月就說要成立現在成立了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3888.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3902.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
還沒有因為第一個是因為政府機關像這個基金我們弄了然後最後國發會申請到是年底然後年底他要撥預算給我們我也不是就是公務程序那你預計什麼時候要成立我們要預計在五月可以掛牌 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3903.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3925.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
掛牌然後辦公室應該在五月底可以成立然後運作的話可能是在五月底六月初就可以開始對外正式運作因此你大概預計五月底六月初你才要開放受理投資案件的申請嗎對對他會到時候委員關心的說會不會有什麼弊案基本上我們不會讓這個弊案發生一定有一個程序會來進行所以請委員放心 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3926.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3950.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
我跟你說因為這個月你也知道在這個國發基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會有許許多多的討論那當然後來書面報告他有提出9項改革包括強化投資審查機制加強投資後管理還有風險預警指標等等的但是你的這個實施方案作業要點已經列好了你已經做好了請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3953.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3968.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
經過這個檢討還有調查委員會之後你有沒有想要讓你的這個作業方案更為嚴格一點你有沒有要修改的地方包委員這個其實一定要嚴格的一定要符合法尊但是其實有時候基金投資不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3969.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3991.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
任何的基金都是不可能全部都賺錢一定有賺有賺所以他才說增建風險預警的指標啊還有投資後的管理措施啊對這個我們一定會按照因為我們的上游是國發會的基金管理委員會所以我們會遵照他們的指示我們是他們下面的七大基金之一所以我們會完全會照他們的這個指示來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3991.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4010.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
好啊我也希望未來不會衍生出什麼弊案啦歡迎我也來監督啦我是覺得大家可以來監督最後一個問題最後一個問題就是上週五一個比較大的議題是護理師在台大醫院的企業公會講說哇台大有了老鼠患之後居然是一位護理師發一塊黏鼠板來做處理但是面臨護理荒 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4015.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4036.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
他們還要再做這樣額外的工作真的不行結果台大醫院呢就跑出來說沒有請護理師放心他們跟簽約的清潔公司會來清除病媒但是您身為病媒的最高指導機關你是不是覺得你應該好好的幫他們把脈因為簽約的清潔公司跟病媒的防治根本就是兩個不同的專業對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4038.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4057.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
對 其實這個不會是一般人都有專業的人來處理像我這兩天聽到監察院聽說3月就有很多的老鼠在吃文件你有趕快跟他聯絡嗎那個室內的話不是我們的事我們是跑到馬路上來是環境部的事我們署長來回答是 報告委員我們有1000多家的病房之類假設台大有問題我們願意去接觸它 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4057.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4076.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
好那今天這個會議結束希望你們可以主動跟台大醫院聯絡因為他們發了新聞稿以後我才發現其實他們沒有那麼懂並沒防止是沒問題好謝謝謝謝好謝謝謝謝請問謝謝部長好接下來請林月琴委員來做宣導來給委員過好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4089.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4091.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩我們的彭部長來 請部長部長早部長我們今天來討論一下你的如何因應在庫下昨天還蠻熱的 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4104.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4127.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
喉嚨底的那個社福議題部長在氣候變遷因應法2023年修正上路的時候明確要求政府在氣候調適中要強化脆弱群體因應我們的氣候變遷衝擊的能力這是法律定下來的不是可以模糊掉的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4127.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4135.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我知道近期你帶來早衛府部有去推動抗高溫對策聯盟辦過我們的高溫調適研討會也強調整個部會整合其他部會這是我覺得給你高度肯定但是我們回頭檢視112年到115年的國家氣候變遷調適行動計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4151.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4168.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
五百多頁裡邊衛福部只佔了零星幾頁角色非常的邊緣化參與模式也停留在平台討論還有一場場的研討會而已想問部長你們討論中所理解的弱勢族群有哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4169.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4193.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
弱勢族群主要是針對例如說低收入者然後還有一個高年齡年長者還有一個小朋友這個是氣候變遷是屬於最弱勢的所以你講老人啊兒少嘛所以部長你自己也說過你在2024年8月7號的時候也提過是說氣候調適不好做需要各部會一起來不是你單一個環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4194.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4210.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那不要像過去各自為政但我想問的是有沒有明確的法源依據的那個分工因為你剛剛提到這些老人也好兒少也好甚至孕婦也好這些弱勢族群的身心狀態這樣靠一個平台會議來協調保障會足夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4214.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4241.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
包委員因為我們的調適就是說其實過去有很多的計畫在做每個部會大概都有可是我的觀察其實每個部會的計畫就是擺在暑假上沒有辦法落地那現在我們就舉一個像高溫高溫是國人最有感的我們就希望說在那個把各個部會都找來我不要給大家買很大的壓力那錢都是自己大家的錢我們來針對例如說今年的暑假的高溫 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4242.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4268.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我們怎麼去做準備有一個可以操作的模式找出來因為我們要落地型的不要講理論型的這個是我們希望有一個目標可是政府以前常常都跟我們講依法行政所以我想問部長我們的氣候法的第八條我們調適事項為什麼沒有特別提到衛福部這是制度設計的缺肉嗎還是環境部認為衛福部在弱勢族群上的保護上沒有這麼關鍵 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4270.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4288.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
跟委員報告因為氣候變遷因應法它是規範整個調試的主要的計畫的主辦所以由國發會跟環境部來共同主辦那當然每一個部會都有調試需要辦理的工作所以就會在國家調試氣候變遷調試計畫底下去做分工 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4289.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4311.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
所以因為我剛剛想說你們500多頁的報告裡邊真的衛福部真的非常的擔保可是我們看到就極端的氣候已經成常態了像今年夏天還沒開始上週部分地區都超過36度我們夏天越來越長那根據衛福部的統計呢在2023年6月8號跟2024年的6月8號這個同期去比較成長了七成 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4317.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4344.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
已經到達了2600多人也就是說這樣子的一個就診人數因為熱而就診人數至少是提高的那因為老人跟慢性疾病患者在庫下當中死亡的風險明顯也是比一般人高的可是今天我要強調的是面對我們的極端氣候最脆弱的不是剛才部長提的所謂的只有老人幼兒而已甚至慢性疾病 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4345.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4356.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
要被關注以外我們還有一個叫做社會福利的弱勢的一個禁慾的族群就像你剛剛講的你有特別提到低收入戶那個經濟弱勢的確我們從民間在服務的經驗裡面像萬華 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4360.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4378.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
士林那邊經濟弱勢租戶多住在老舊還有違建通風不良的房屋裡面陷入一個越窮越熱越熱越窮的二線循環另外一個就是無家者像萬華地區那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4379.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4399.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
夏天白天都頂著高溫在打零工可是晚上要住公園也是熱得難以沉眠那在處理他們的這相關的協會都會反映說夏日食物腐敗中暑的這些問題都很嚴重那沒有地方可以避暑 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4399.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4425.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那我們自己在看一些研究也發現每多高溫一度那相關人際暴力行為就增加約大4到6%也會高比例的觸發精神疾病高溫對於高風險家庭也是一個潛在的危險因子所以部長從環境部的角度我剛剛提的這些狀況是不是也是你氣候調適的一個重要議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4426.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4453.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
對是的委員其實第一個是說我們那個平台會把這個委員提到的項目我會特別交代把它納進來如何幫忙那我們過去有一個想法就是說例如說我們把可以有公共空調的地方讓公開讓大家知道他可以去但是可能晚上可能就沒有辦法所以我們會來好好來討論如何委員說的如果酷暑的時候這種所謂的弱勢族群該怎麼辦對部長所以我覺得除了我們剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4455.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4484.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
你剛剛提到 我覺得我們比較時常關心的生理弱勢族群像老人 幼兒 甚至孕婦環境部也比較看起來 剛剛聽起來也是比較重視這一些所以要請部長我剛剛簡報當中從社福機構盤點出來經濟弱勢無家者 社福機構像安置機構 長照機構 高風險家庭甚至有身心障礙的罕見疾病未來環境部準備要如何有效的去跟我們的社政系統對接 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4485.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4506.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
主動提供資源來保護這些風險中的弱勢所以我先問你法規的支持是否足夠目前只有一個大項例如說這個屬於像這樣的族群可能是未撫不負責但是我們是覺得是說因為要修一個法要花很多的時間那我們希望在今年就有一個操作的一個機會所以意思是說你今年政策會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4507.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4532.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
這樣的相關的提出嗎就是執行上我們就會拿今年的這個夏天的熱來當成說我們哪裡有缺點能夠來改進可以實際上可以運作的空間因為法歸法執行歸執行對部長延續你剛剛這些回應我因為我過去事實上是一個社會福利的工作者要聚焦到一個非常現實的問題就是補助資源的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4534.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4561.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
因為剛剛前面就講了低收中低收就是經濟弱勢所以整個社會體系跟我們的氣候政策雙方都彼此事實上是認識不足的所以有社工的學者指出說台灣社會對貧窮的想像不能還停留在十一住行的匱乏實際上能源貧窮跟高溫的威脅早已經事實上是經濟弱勢家庭每天的生存危機所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4561.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4590.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
大風險中心最新的研究發現說台灣有55%的弱勢家庭他們能源支出超過收入的10%甚至到30%那他就已經經濟弱勢可是這個支出又佔了他佔比將近到三分之一所以他完全事實上是能源貧窮的族群更慘的是政府的氣候變遷支援弱勢族群事實上是用不到了譬如政府推我們的所謂的能源 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4591.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4601.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
家電的補助22%以上弱勢家庭因為付不起致富額他根本也用不到那根本就沒有辦法說我要來太舊換新把那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4602.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4621.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
耗電的冷氣換掉更沒辦法所以他們白天呢住在比較室溫超過35度的房間裡面只能用越吹越貴的破冷氣來陷入惡性循環所以部長針對於能源貧窮的這個議題你到底現在目前有對策嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4621.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4648.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
包委員因為這個我們過去政府的補助節能家電只有例如說三千塊跟兩千塊通過五千塊的確是沒有針對這個弱勢的族群來做這些事啦那我想我會在我們那個高溫的平台裡面跟個跨部因為那個是跨部會的我們會來討論是希望部長可能趕快提出來因為我詢問了一些兒少安置機構就育幼院俗稱我們過去育幼院多數都不知道你的有能源補助喔知道的也反映說因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4650.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4650.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
規則太僵硬 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4652.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4680.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
一個20個孩子你只補助兩台可是根本就不了解育幼院的生態他們小家小家住為了讓他們有家的感覺小家小家住所以你只因為因應孩子的多寡而去補助這樣的話根本就是不太了解社福機構的常態所以部長如果社福單夥伴要靠自己來應對高溫氣候政策又沒有辦法有效把社福體系納入的話有補助但是不適合我們的社福 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4681.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4695.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
實際的需求所以我想問環境部打算到底怎麼做如何符合社福體系我們剛剛講的是有一些生理需求可是我現在回到社福體系的話你怎麼去對於能夠去提供因應他們比較需要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4696.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4720.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
資源能源政策包委我們大概是五月底會那個聯盟會成立現在已經開過會了那我我答應委員這個部分我會特別找相關的部會來討論如何解決這個問題因為這個的確有些地方是有些地方是設那個空調中心你可以到那個地方去步但是這個是最簡單的做法我們可不可以接近於我們比較鄰近的國家所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4721.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4748.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
他們也是跟我們一樣所以台灣在極端的高溫下對於社會弱勢的保護政策看一下人家日韓到底怎麼做啦所以提出三點的意見跟部長來做交換意見韓國從中央層級的推動在全國建置超過五萬處的避暑中心那包含跟商店合作友善標章你剛才也提到說台灣也嘗試要這樣做那可不可以更擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4748.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4761.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
遇到高溫預警的主動開放並以公開線上地圖讓民眾方便查詢來做使用日本也在地方設置了我們的暑熱避難的設施提供基礎的標準的設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4764.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4791.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
像譬如說要有冷氣要有飲水還有一些休息的空間可是反觀台灣有類似這樣子制度可是地方落實狀況相差非常的大有些避暑空間設施標準事實上是稱之不齊的所以想問部長說如何你評估台灣現在的避暑空間的落實效益是什麼是不是有效能夠協助到無家者或者是高溫預警下的有需要的民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4792.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4820.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
包委員其實我的瞭解是還不真的很不夠啦所以委員像這個就是我自己很想要做的目標我會我會照委員建議來進行希望你可能要趕快做再來就政府對高溫預警的通知必須要在制度上規劃轉換成有效的社福行動因為日橫在高溫預警的發布後社區的社工和村里長長照的人員都會啟動列管個案主動去探訪跟聯繫提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4822.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4844.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這個我覺得你跟衛福部一定要能夠兩方可以去合作否則的話你這邊要做可是他們會去接觸到個案可是個案那邊他們沒有去做這樣的方式來建立基礎的社工跟社福相關有清楚的氣候預警的功能角色我覺得可能要由環境部來召開最後就是資源能源補助是不是符合這些弱勢族群的需求所以韓國把 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4846.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4870.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我們的溫度 貧窮議題串聯我們的社工 社政法規直接對準對象發所謂的能源券讓低收入戶寄養家庭不用過度擔心能源的費用我們還要考慮到寄養家庭他在照顧別人的小孩照顧我們沒辦法回到家庭的那個小孩所以日本就透過一些電費的補助來讓經濟弱勢不會有顧慮所以我覺得台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4874.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4902.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
可能要去考慮所以我想問部長是不是在能源補助政策之外研擬相關的能夠讓他們使用到這樣子的資源的支持最後就還是期待是不是建立法定的環境部跟我們的衛福部的一些合作機制還有呢有一些應對能源政策的補助貧窮然後能夠讓社福機構能夠到位所以是不是在兩週內可以告訴我們你大家要怎麼去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4903.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4919.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
好委員因為我們應該是5月下旬才會正式宣布啦那可不可以給我們一個月的時間那委員的建議我們會好再麻煩因為你的建議非常好因為社福機構很多時候是靠募款的如果很多大部分的錢那又要用在這 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4920.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4934.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那他們可能用在孩子身上的地方就會變少我們到時候聯謀成立也希望委員可以給我們指導一下好再麻煩高溫已經是個很重要的議題了謝謝接下來請邱政軍委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4948.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4969.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
主席好 我們請部長部長好從上任我就聽到你很積極在處理垃圾山的問題那112年裸露的垃圾原本是84萬公噸到去年年底下降到74.5萬公噸達成率大概是11% |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4973.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4989.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
但今年我看這個4月又胖了我們的垃圾山又漲胖了那變成79.7萬公噸目標達成率又降到5.1%這是什麼原因第一個是因為過年第二個是去年颱風比較多所以整個又累積起來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4990.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5015.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
那現在也跟委員報告大概是預計下半年我們因為這個計畫是包含了整個處理也要委外要發包那我們預計大概下半年應該數字就會降得比較快因為我看到比較擔心就是看到這個圖裸露的垃圾監控平台上面的實際這個值跟我們的目標值越分越開那我還以為是這個壽成失敗 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5016.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5045.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那我們這個部分就是說我們部長說在原先在115年說要把這些清掉那現在進度會影響嗎明年的年底不要有裸露就是說我說的是裸露就是很多外面那個媒體說什麼叫裸露裸露就是說就是生垃圾在外面然後很多的蒼蠅很多的生態系鳥類這個標準這樣很模糊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5045.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5074 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
喔 就是說你不要看到垃圾丟在這個一堆一個山上我們至少把它那跑到山上看還是看得到是吧呃 基本上上面會有覆土然後有人會打包我們會有這兩張就可以掩埋的你就把它掩埋起來對 你會去處理就可以燒的就會完全燒掉這樣的意思嗎對對 就是說等於是如果可以因為現在的情況就是說呃 這個處理的量能不夠所以只好裸露在那邊那野豹園因為大概有40快要接近50個地方那附近的居民喔非常的辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5074.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5102.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那我希望部長加油啦不要說講了然後又忘記了2024年底我們太陽能發電大概是4.28G瓦如果民進黨政府還是我們不檢討這個能源政策我想要持續加速發展光電的話那接下來成長的數字可能會更可觀假設每年要每發電千瓦要用3.3片這個太陽面板 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5104.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5124.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那換算下來全台裝了4712萬片的太陽能板相當於94.2萬公噸那廢棄的太陽能板就會變成一個大問題對不對對 沒錯那我們在裝光電板的時候我記得經濟部會先收一些模組的回收費那這些錢在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5125.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5153.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這個現在的是由能源署代收,然後要處理的時候是由我們循環署跟...前收的有交到這邊來嗎?有,我們會去申請過來現在收了多少錢?現在大概,給我們大概是一兩億有一兩億,那如果飛溪光電要丟,我們要先到我們環境部的網站去做填單對不對?沒錯是滿50片才會清理嗎?對,要有一定的數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5154.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5179.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那我請教一下就是說像一般颱風啊或者是一些天災或者是一些小型的就是說小範圍的這個毀損那這些部分回收回來那這些東西它是先放哪裡因為它能買它可以它直接丟掉還是直接收它可以暫存暫存那我們回收回來之後累積到一定的量那會送到那個我們的處理機構我們這邊有管制嘛這邊目前像這些漏下來的就是這些小範圍的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5182.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5211.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
小範圍的話基本上是他他自己保管的他還是會直接丟資源回收如果是資源回收因為那個要除非是說是小的才有可能你沒有管制嗎像這部分就沒有嘛對不對小的部分就就是等於是說他自己加護他把他拿出來給清潔隊就直接清潔隊在那邊處理掉所以我還是覺得這個也是一個問題那如果有這樣的話你大概換算一下因為全台灣那麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5212.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5238.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
它因為雖然是每個範圍雖然數量不多但是這個集中起來就是一個數很大一個數字那我也不希望它變成我們另外一個以後對台灣來講對環境造成影響的一個問題那我希望這個我們環境部這個部分要多再做一個想一個辦法想一個機制讓業者或者是我們一般的回收業者他有一個方向可循好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5239.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5251.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
幫委員因為這個其實這個是一個資源等於再回收再利用那現在有五家那未來應該現在我們合格的只有五家對不對應該是我們世間甲級的一間一級的嘛對不對他們年處理兩次多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5253.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5268.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
年儲量十幾萬噸有到十幾萬嗎?是那目前看起來這樣子是應該還能因應因為我看到我大概抓了一下大概20到2035年我們每年會超過十萬公噸所以我們也就是說這些國內的這些業者目前還可以消化了?是 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5269.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5291.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
是,等30年之後才會快速的增加對,31年才會到高峰我們抓的資料大概3、5年就會每年會超過10萬噸多的我們是送到日本、德國其實我們現在有個想法是應該要留在台灣內循環應該回收在利用營會比較好這是一個珍貴的資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5293.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5312.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
對啦 我們當然技術上我也請我們大家協助地方啦讓這個東西不要變成台灣一個問題它能夠繼續循環使用是最好那接下來我再請教就是說我們的這個碳費 碳盤查你們接下來要擴大溫室氣體排放量的盤查其中一個是醫學中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5312.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5332.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我比較擔心因為醫學中心他的工作內容很繁重那麼我也聽到之前有一些委員在質詢那我們也主要是不希望增加他們的工作負擔那部長說過我們大盤查採三不一沒有嘛那只要登錄就可以是嗎對 登錄所以登錄那是登錄什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5333.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5350.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
就是說很簡單就是插入你的工商憑證那我們已經跟台電有談好了就是說插入工商憑證之後我們會有一個網站插入工商憑證之後就撈你的電費下來那因為電費通常佔醫院大概八成的排碳量你大概就可以抓到它的排碳量有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5351.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5375.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
所以我們是抓抓大放小等於是抓大的那其實醫院不會增加醫院不用花時間去盤查我們是希望這樣不要造成我們尤其醫院他本身的業務就很重了不要再增加他們的工作負擔那看起來我們的碳費遵守還是照一樣這個照原定的進度去進行嗎我們是跟著日本腳步 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5376.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5396.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
其實日本早就在好幾年前就有地球溫暖化對策稅已經在走了所以我們是跟著他的腳步嘛那部長也在期待台灣會彎道超車嘛對我們期待是說疫情是大家關稅是很辛苦的啦大家還不知道因為最後的判決我現在就是比較擔心就是說我們期待彎道超車但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5397.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5415.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
台灣不要彎道反車了因為現在平良心講我們看到日本的對川普的關稅手段是蠻強硬的那我看到我也希望我們賴政府跟我們的左內閣我們什麼都學日本那這部分關稅會學日本嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5417.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5443.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
這個關稅不是我的專長我希望說不要對內拿一把大刀啦對外卻一個屁都不敢放那當然我們希望我們對內對外該做對的事情不要說只會欺負我們自己國內的業者不會不會不會我們都有一些很好的輔導措施希望部長我們就不要政府不要再 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5445.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5452.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
把這個企業的成本一直增加這樣對台灣不是好事啦好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝接下來請蘇清泉召委謝謝主席那我請部長來請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5470.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5495.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
市長我今天問你比較大的題目第一個問題就是說我們現在勞動部我們環境部是岸上馬尼、澳尼要開始修碳廢碳廢碳廢你一棟要修多少,多多少,這是你自己想想的嗎?媽祖託人,你就修下去沒有啦,專業的審查啦,他們算出來的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5499.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5510.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
所以省出來就對了好那國際上像歐盟啊他們在搞的這個是碳稅還是碳交易OK |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5511.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5538.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
其實碳稅、碳交易或碳費碳費跟碳稅有一點像但是我們台灣是專款專用碳費專款專用如果以後以後會到碳稅那那個就會到財政部不會到我們環境部那如果另外一種是碳交易碳交易就是比較大的就像我們交易買賣一樣就碳交易那目前大多數的國家是兩套併程在進行就是碳交易跟碳稅或碳費 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5539.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5545.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那現在國際上在定考試規則定比賽的方法是誰在定啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5546.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5569.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
就是因為這個東西都要市場機制在起來所以像歐盟齁他們是有一個歐盟的這個環境的這個DGCLIMA就氣候委員會在處理這個事不是就是DGCLIMA就歐盟那日本呢就是由環境省跟這個財務省一起來合作還有經財省一起合作那現在歐盟定了一大堆說譬如說將來將來我們東西要賣給歐盟啊你如果不照他的標準他就要給他卡水 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5575.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5598.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
還是要去買碳交易?沒有,CBAN就是碳邊境調整機制有些人就說叫做碳關稅但是報告委員他現在是明年開始算後年開始要交然後他現在是出口到歐盟50噸的商品才要課這個對台灣來說壓力就沒那麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5601.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5607.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
那現在全世界汙染大國,一個是美國,一個是中國大陸這兩個加起來,這樣全世界的70%有沒有?五、六十那這兩個大國都不甩它、不鳥它,那這個還玩得下去嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5619.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5641.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那美國川普一起來就說要退出啦總退,COPP也退,所有人都退,那現在有沒有?報告委員,中國的減碳還蠻積極的他們有8個碳交易所,所以中國的減碳是很積極的然後美國呢,美國是以前聯邦政府沒那麼積極,有在改但是現在那個州,州還是蠻積極的,他都還是在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5645.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5671.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
各州還是很積極所以美國像我們那個蘋果我覺得蘋果公司在美國啊他也沒有說我就不減碳啊他一樣宣告2030年每一支手機要淨零碳排好那現在第二個問題譬如說用台積電標準的嘛台積電跟它的供應鏈的廠商說你要買我的東西你就要有減碳你就要有交易你就要有賤名 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5672.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5691.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
台積電站起來,他不夠的,將來要把我們的環境部告錢,還要把歐盟告錢,是不是高農白錢啊?我跟歐盟說好了,就是說如果你交給我多少,到台積電這個可以扣掉。歐盟有得救嗎?我看這個俄烏戰爭,我發現歐盟也是俐落落的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5696.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5720.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
但是他是全世界這個設定規則比較前進比較先進的國家啦所以目前這個歐盟還是歐盟目前沒有退我們醫療譬如說食品安全那個Gotex他們那個是訂的還不錯還不錯你要不要遵守是你的事嘛好那再來第三個問題這個碳交易就是說你不夠你要跟他買 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5721.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5724.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
然後他去紐西蘭去Australia去搞森林來買賣那這個是不是變成洗錢的一個管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5731.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5752.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
OK 報告委員第一個是說交易是在國內你不能去買那個什麼印尼的碳權回來國內抵這個目前我們法令最多最多目前新加坡有這個制度5%啦你最多在國外買5%我們認定的5%而已所以不能夠全部都跑去別的地方減碳然後來算我的 不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5754.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5768.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那歐盟這個碳交易的平台是在幹嘛?就是說...沒有沒有,請問一下,例如說好,包括委員,如果台積電假設1000萬噸那我們就規定1000萬噸,你就最多,而且你每年要減 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5769.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5797.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
最後205年你要零阿如果說台積電現在要擴廠2納米3納米它要擴廠它會增加100萬噸這100萬噸呢就要來去做減碳的事情就要來去市場去買那有些人就覺得說阿我來發展種樹或幹嘛航核技術就賣給台積電所以這個就是碳市場就會起來啦所以台積電如果在台灣攪一攪它要出口到今天要出口到歐盟它這邊可以扣掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5797.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5805.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
可以 完全可以好 不是 又來那邊我們很怕就搞成洗錢的管道嘛 就再一次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5807.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5835.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
醜陋的一面再又跑出來先進國家在玩這個落後國家先進國家搞死這些第三世界的國家我們一直擔心這樣啊包吻不會這個我們可以保證因為我們就是一直在跟歐盟在談這個你到底要多少啊可以認我多少啊目前我們隨時都可以抵的看不下去就是這些這些先進所謂先進國家他們就訂考試規則訂考試的辦法然後怎麼然後讓這些國家永遠跟不上 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5836.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5851.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
有人被霸凌、被剝削、被強暴、被蹂躪欸柏霖,我看你是有理想有抱負,你說得很好啊這個我們一定會保障,我跟各位保障因為我們已經談過了,我們現在也是外部的諮詢的對象就像關稅一樣,這些都會出力 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5856.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5883.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
好那再來我們台灣的石化燃料包括液態瓦斯包括燃煤佔了我們的發電能源的70幾% 80幾%颱風天有時候高到90幾%我們是要減碳的你講的說先進核能技術我們可以接受什麼叫做先進核能技術 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5884.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5905.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
如果現在國際上通稱就是兩個SMR還有核融合就是屬於3.5代以後的就是3.5代我昨天看了一下中國大陸他現在在發電的核能機組有57座正在建的有28座28個反應圖所以加起來就80幾 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5909.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5934.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
然後他昨天又核准了10座所以很快就世界第一名現在世界二三名、一二名他這張是叫什麼他算是第三代我們也在觀察中國有沒有核融合他們也有在研議然後他們也有在研究SMR那也跟委員報告因為現在中國跟俄羅斯是全世界新建核能廠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5935.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5955.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
兩個都佔了全世界95%以上所以如果新蓋核電廠可能就是歐盟目前只是在英國兩個韓國兩個其他都是中國跟俄羅斯的這也是很大的問題啦因為我去看過那個胡青胡宗明的胡青他有過兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5956.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5965.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
離台中市126公里台中市離我們屏東河山場266多公里那樣出事,對面126公里就到台灣了在那邊叫河山場關場,對面那邊不叫關,不去臥鬼,去抗議 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5980.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5986.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
緩和混時態,不要去抗議,那個才是危險啊當然要搞八部機組啊,所以在這部份要看一看好,那最後一個問題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5997.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6013.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
醫療院所這塊你現在是怎樣處理?醫療院所跟委員報告我很積極去媒合大的醫院現在公立醫院因為他要採購等等很麻煩私立醫院比較快所以我們很積極的有團隊可以來輔導醫療醫院做診斷然後會媒合受寫業的資金 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6019.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6037.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那現在我們發現就是說很多做exco的公司應該叫做super exco大的都可以來幫忙醫療院所所以其實大的好的民間的醫院我們會優先來處理大的公立的說真的他們有他預算採購經費等等就麻煩了反而是民間的醫院早點 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6039.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6065.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以你會中型以上的社長法院、財政法院你會優先我們現在已經開始在進行了城市小組來幫忙他們現在我們有新的計畫正在啟動那也歡迎這個中型的醫院太小的診所那個就不用了就大的中大型的我們還歡迎他要照顧啦現在這樣虛烈烈你就要pay more attention對 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6067.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6072.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
要自己照顧 什麼就是國發基金要投資基金變成一些環保蟑螂要來申請什麼的會不會產生弊端 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6082.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6106.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
包圍不會就是說我們必須說以前這個產業是不受大家重視的那就自然而然變蟑螂嘛我們希望透過這個方式把好的能夠把它在台面上這個我們歡迎大家來監督啦因為現在國發基金也被也有一些審核的標準我們會全部公開的來處理請大家放心好要公開透明啦好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝周委謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6112.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6130.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那個部長招委是很英明的,跟你講說碳灰是不是馬祖指示,這個是有道理的啦你看一年那些馬祖的遶境活動,那個碳排放,這是未來你是不是要去思考的 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6131.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6160.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
就是大家罵,後來要白手套罵,後來又老婆罵,那多少的車輛?多少的燒金、焚箱?多少的鞭炮?多少人的遷徙?這都是碳排放,這個未來你可能要去思考,他不跟我說,啊你說啊,所以腳尾英明。來,抱歉,接下來請廖偉祥委員來做詢問。委員會在這邊宣告,我們到圖全齊委員詢問結束之後休息十分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6166.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6188.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
謝謝主席有請部長來請部長廖委員好部長好部長你曉不曉得前陣子在這個陽明山國家公園的小油坑道發生火警知不知道這個事情知道你知道這個事情嗎那目前初步的調查你知道是什麼原因嗎我目前掌握最新的數據是因為那邊有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6190.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6219.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
國科會他們下面的委外計畫有一個空氣盒子有點像是監測器的部分應該裡面有些鋰電池很像很像初步是這樣但是我還沒有看到最新的結果著火燒起來目前初步是這樣當然進一步的細節要有待這個消防單位再進一步的釐清但是我想要問的是因為他這個非常嚴重他延燒了大概30至50公頃的林地所以其實我想要問說譬如說包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6220.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6242.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
這次年初2025年初的時候美國西部加州也大火燒了非常的久很嚴重很多人傷亡然後呢這個很多財務損失財產損失那索性這次我們很這個怎麼講算是很幸運的沒有人員傷亡可是這是一個很嚴重的警訊和警鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6243.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6268.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那我想要問因為環境部本身雖然你剛說是國科會的這個空氣品質監測的儀器可是我想環境部也非常多相關的儀器散布在我們全台灣各個地方不管是城市或者是不曉得你們有沒有散布在森林裡面或是比較不容易尋檢到的地方所以我想要問的是環境部在編列這些儀器經費的時候有沒有納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6269.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6296.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
相關的規範比如說過充保護啦或是過熱斷電啦或者防水防塵的IP等級啊或者是有的防火認證等等的安全保護有沒有這樣子的機制你們在採購儀器的時候包委員我們如果大型的標準的六十幾站那個是一個高規格的所以沒有問題那我們目前呢因為我們跟地方政府合作大概有一萬座一萬座是屬於類似這個空瓶感測器就是像 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6298.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6320.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那個一個大概一萬塊貴的就比較貴貴的當然準確度比較高那目前我們設置的都有一定的安全的保障的規範例如說防水或是說它的這個漏電或電壓的穩定都有一定的規範有沒有過熱斷電過充保護或者是其他的分系的東西有嗎就是包含了鋰電池的安全等等我們都有一系列的規範出來那 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6321.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6344.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
所以你們有相關的規範如果已經有的話是不是可以要回去再去盤點現在到底有哪一些是不是要回去再重新調查一下因為發生這個事情因為我相信國客會當初在標這個儀器的時候他一定也會說他有這相關的規範那這個部分是不是要透過這次的事件是很幸運的我們台灣沒有造成傷亡但本質上它是嚴重的警訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6346.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6364.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那所以剛剛有提到其實國外有這樣的案例所以我在想我們有這麼多的遺棄一萬多個這部分因為這樣的事件絕對不能再發生所以這部分是不是要請我們的這個環境部不管是協同還是國科會去了解國科會的這個事件或者是跟消防單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6365.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6383.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
一起重新的開始去檢討你們這1萬多個有沒有這樣子的風險譬如說是不是要強制再回去檢查你們的安全標準夠不夠高我剛剛說的有沒有什麼強制的過沖保護或是過熱斷電 防水防塵就是這個安全標準高不高 夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6384.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6406.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
再來就是有沒有要建立儀器安全的這個巡檢跟維護的制度要定期的巡查然後汰換現在因為你這一萬多個我相信也是分年去採購慢慢建置起來那這些過期比較久的他現在有沒有風險那這個是不是要汰換而且是不是要列車管理請問上面我給了幾個建議你們哪一些有做 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6407.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6428.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
好 我們規範目前是有 就是一系列的一個規範那因為我們長期營運這個監測站所以環境部本身就有一套這種防漏電的這個評管的一個標準但是這個一萬多個的確是一個問題 因為它比較便宜所以委員的您的意見我們會再來調整來檢視一下是不是我們要訂一些規範或是重新老舊的要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6429.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6448.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
對 所以請部長這邊可能要更積極一點去主動的去做這件事因為一萬多個放在這個社會上面放在我們台灣的環境裡面那從這個事件你可以看到任何一個發生問題你不要說是在森林裡可能太晚發現如果你是在這個城市裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6450.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6473.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
發生的問題造成的傷亡可能更加嚴重所以這部分邀請部長可以更加積極的甚至是列車管理幾年什麼時候的這個風險係數是不是比較高安全標準有沒有達到那在拉高一個安全標準的情況之下回去看所有的這個器材有沒有需要汰換的這部分邀請部長是不是可以承諾可以儘速的 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6475.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6498.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
啟動這個專案好我們這邊我們來研究一下再跟委員做回覆因為這其實呃這個一萬多個我們大多數因為我們一定的規範啦啊那國科會可能過去比較少做這個儀器然後這個管理上面我們比較有經驗啦所以好沒關係但是部長千萬不要過於自信好發生一個都有問題所以我要在這裡請部長具體的承諾這樣子是那這邊多久的時間可以一個月一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6500.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6525.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我們一個月一個月處理好不好那部長我上次其實有問到關於手機回收被倒刷的事件那我當下問你的時候大概被倒刷十萬多塊那我當下問你的時候你說你不曉得你會回去瞭解這件事情請問你們現在瞭解的狀況怎麼樣目前瞭解的狀況如何那知道有知道為什麼遵守相關的回收SOP還是導致這樣子被倒刷嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6526.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6546.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
是 我們有跟那個蘋果公司他們這個營業有來討論過那這個案子是有一兩年那我們那時候後來之後我們有做一些我們有些新的規定是在大概是應該是去年公告的那也有都跟業者再來那個協商那他們會特別再來注意說可以來避免這個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6548.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6566.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那有什麼具體的做法嗎因為我覺得我們等一下會再進一步討論到這個廢手機回收的問題這也是我想環境部很重要的一個業務因為發生這樣的事情其實說真的很多人因為關於這個資安相關的疑慮或者是手機有相關的這個風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6567.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6589.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
他們不會願意甚至不會提高他的意願那現在已經有願意去回收還暴露在這個風險我覺得會嚴重影響這方面的回收的情形和成效那我想各個這個我們的回收點或者我們的一個手機的公司我們會做一些這個手冊指引然後提醒這些第一線的人都能夠去確實來按照這個SOP來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6590.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6609.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我想可能只有手冊還要再去跟這些業者好好的討論一下要具體的檢討因為只有手冊我相信不夠可是手冊這麼長真的有人你要怎麼樣去確保他真的照著這個東西做完那這都會影響到未來的成效所以我現在要跟你講根據這個聯合國的訓練研究所還有國際電信聯盟他們發佈了2024年全球電子廢棄物的監測報告那2022年的電子廢棄物達6200萬公噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6620.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6627.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那但是他也有說全球的這個回收機制跟量能不足僅22.3%被妥善回收處理22.3% |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6629.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6655.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那這個報告也進一步指出隨著消費持續增加維修不易然後產品生命週期等因素縮短等因素2030年的電子廢棄物將增至8200萬公噸搞不好還更多那我也看到就是剛剛延續剛剛這個話題我們現在我國的回收統計上我們剛剛有說要推這個廢手機回收可是目前並沒有這個欄位 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6656.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6663.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
所以好無法精確的知道有多少手機多少量的手機有多少是被盡到拆解那 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6664.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6685.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我想聯合國的這個電子的廢棄物報告也有指出一公噸的手機大概可以回收的話可以產出117公克的金1.89公斤的銀和137.1公斤的銅所以現在開採這些礦源的難度也變高了所以才需要這個所謂的城市採礦很多人在講城市採礦 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6686.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6702.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那我就想要講的就是說台灣於2006年也公告手機是清潔隊的因回收項目那今年開始執行廢行動電話的回收那循環服務跟標示分類回收標誌的業者的範圍等等等這些新規定已經上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6703.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6720.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
所以我看到我們並沒有這個統計欄位我這裡想要具體的訴求是說未來是不是應該要多一欄這樣子的廢手機的回收統計廢手機的回收統計另外今天的報告的第17頁有提到循環率那報告裡面沒有提到是循環率是115年才開始實施 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6722.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6738.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那這個部分呢我國每年約是500萬支手機銷售這個手機那也有很多民眾剛剛講的你光手冊也沒用很多民眾也不知道怎麼回收過程到底有哪些回收管道或者是回收前怎麼避免治安的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6740.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6766.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
所以想要請教部長的是剛剛講的第一個是這個欄位的統計要精確要新增然後怎麼樣做到確實這樣未來才可以去追蹤然後再來就是說現在的回收我剛剛講到回收率很低的問題這是不是可以部長有沒有多有沒有去跟這些手機製造者電信業者去溝通怎麼樣加強回收的誘因還有宣導回收前的這些相關的手續清除手續 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6769.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6791.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
因為在我們去年就做了這個手機的公告所以它有一個他們在這個法定的要求之下就會來做好這件事情包括說提供誘因以及提供這個方便的管道讓民眾來回收現在有具體的方法嗎現在具體你說他們會做這些事情但是你們現在有沒有主動積極的問他們說可以怎麼做或是你們有沒有要求他們要做什麼事 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6793.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6810.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
現在是有現在的現在的門市部還有我們的青葉隊有這個回收管道但是回收率一直就沒有辦法提升原因是要提高這個誘因所以現在現在他們業者會在這個我們明年的法定公告前今年趕快來做這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6811.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6835.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那這部分是他們自己去用還是你們環境部會主動出席去跟他們討論參與會議會把他們業者找來開會了解一下說大家要怎麼提高誘因這部分是不是可以請部長這邊到時候有進展的時候請給我們說你們預計什麼時候開會然後每一次的這個會議的有沒有什麼進展讓我們知道你們要怎麼去把這個提高回收的誘因 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6835.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6858.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
好委員沒問題那我也認同委員的那個城市採光的概念這個就是我們自己也很想做的把這個戰略物資把它留下來對那不好意思 張偉再給我30秒最後就是也是延續著這個就是實荒者的困境了所以剛剛有提到手機回收也是現代人資源回收很重要的一部分那其實你們統計全台環境部列冊的實荒人數是7283人 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6862.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6877.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
但是參與你們的資收關懷計畫只有2370人大概只佔三成是非常少那根據中華民國老人福利關懷協會的實地調查這個推估全台灣有五萬名仰賴實況維生的民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6879.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6905.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
而且其實它全台灣的資源回收總量是684萬噸那有將近一成是由這個實荒者處理而且很多實荒者也是他們家庭的主要的經濟主力所以根據我剛剛說的這些包含這個台灣五角半回收平權協會統計有三分之一的這個人要負擔家計而且每個月他靠這些收入跟這些補貼頂多勉強湊到上萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6908.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6936.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那最近這個剛剛說的近期的回收價格也下跌那這個收入實況收入也很慘淡所以這個部分我們環境部是不是應該要提高也是提高他們的這個回收的費率價格讓他們可以維持基本生活條件而且可以有這樣足夠的誘因因為你們造冊跟真正參與的再跟人家這個實地調查的話這個差距是很大大概是二三十倍啊對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6938.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6952.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
好 謝謝委員這個我們正在進行當中而且我們現在我們在我們的那個基金的管理委員會就是這個訂定費率的基金管理委員會我知道你會增加一個關懷相關的人事的這個援額嘛對不對可是我是希望你可以具體的承諾這個部分應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6954.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6977.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
不管是第一個是誘因不足你現在只有上限是五千元喔所以你這誘因是不是應該要提高那另外一個原因是因為也因為誘因不足所以這些拾荒者也缺乏對於政府的信任他也擔心說會不會影響到他其他的福利的身份他社福的身份那讓他們本來就不寬裕的生活也拿不到那些補助和福利那為了參加你這個計畫所以這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6980.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6984.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
然後第三個就是宣導不足嘛你宣導不足所以可能知道這個計畫的只佔兩成 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6987.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7009.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那這部分你們是不是應該要去解決這幾個主要的原因提高誘因然後跨單位去協調不要影響到他們本身的社福身份而且要讓他們知道他們不會被影響而且確保他們不會被影響那第三個當然就是宣傳你到底要怎麼宣傳你跟地方政府或者是你跟其他你要怎麼進一步去讓大家知道有這個計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7011.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7039.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
是不是可以拜託這個部長這邊這個我們來研議這個有的在進行當中但是我們再給委員報告好再請你給我們一份報告好謝謝接下來請王育民委員來做詢問謝謝主席我們是不是有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7043.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7063.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
王委員早部長早部長這個發生在前任署長任內的這個很嚴重的性騷甚至是性侵的事件我覺得這個事件應該是整個環境部要痛定思痛好好的檢討這個事件我看出了兩個很大的問題第一個就是原來 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7065.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7077.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
環境部裡面設置的申訴的機制通通都失靈包括這個部長的信箱還有就是像部長信箱去投訴之後只有說感謝來信指教然後呢這一個環管所這個上課這個學員 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7083.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7105.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
已經在教學評量表裡面去反映了結果也沒有向上通報所以原來它存在的這個機制裡面是嚴重的失靈第二個就是刻意的包庇這個是讓我覺得很不可思議特別是這個在監察院的報告裡面特別指出來當時的環保署的署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7108.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7121.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
他在批示公文的過程當中他竟然有看到然後說沒有不妥那這個之前的前立委他在指出這個弊案的時候他其實也直指當時的環保署署長有刻意包庇之嫌 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7125.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7152.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
那這個涉案人加害人李建鈺他現在是被台中地檢其實是羈押進鑑因為有發現新的事實他不只是性騷這當中可能還涉及到強制性侵的問題那事實上是非常嚴重的但是我覺得非常遺憾在當時的第一時間因為整個申訴機制的失靈還有加上這個刻意的包庇所以讓這個事件沒有在第一時間發生的時候就立刻採取行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7155.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7171.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
然後把這一個加害人就是直接解雇掉離他的職務反而讓他還繼續在那個職務上面那這件事情這個我想問一下這個部長我知道這個不是你任內發生那你現在發現這樣的情況的話我要問你的是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7175.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7204.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
你怎麼樣確保未來環境部的這個申訴的機制不會有吃案不會有失靈的情況這個部分你現在有做什麼改善嗎好 報告委員第一個我上任之後就跟同仁說姓邵是零容忍當然現在又加上霸凌那這個兩個都是零容忍但是我們而且呢有一套的完整的程序在處理那我也加強性平的一個教育那也跟委員報告李建鈺先生為他被收押其實是本部的系統我們有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7205.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7229.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
被他曾經這個性騷的女同仁透過我們的系統希望能夠提告那我們就透過我們的系統鼓勵他們那我也不知道同事是誰那就經照提告系統之後才有到這個台中地檢運輸把他收藥進鑑所以這個是我們的系統的一個機制讓同仁相信我們這個體系不會吃案當然我必須說公務單位要完全透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7230.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7243.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
要時間我就盡量把陽光可以進來那我們對於當時失職的同仁就是同仁也找外部的專家重新再做一個考量名單也送到監察院去了所以我們就照規定來進行那這個就會讓同仁會應該對我們的體系會更信賴 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7247.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7274.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那你現在的部長信箱裡面因為過去也發生這個署長信箱檢舉只有就是感謝來信指教這完全沒有受理就是忽視這一類的案件那未來像你這個部長信箱如果類似這樣的一個案件無論是性騷或者是霸凌的案件你到這個你現在你的部長信箱有專人好好的管理嗎就是你怎麼一個重視的情況報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7275.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7299.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
我們對內有一個我個人的信箱那我親自看整個布局我還可以看得到我個人的信箱那我收到之後我會去處理那還有一個公開的所長信箱那這個所長信箱就有一定的機制那我也要求他們定期也要跟我匯報那我未來應該我也可以直接看得到他們通常都是定期在我們部務會議會跟我報告大概有幾個陳情或什麼樣的事件是 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7300.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7322.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
好那我希望這樣的一個透過你們內部的一個積極改善這樣的情況無論是性騷甚至很嚴重的性侵不可以在這個環境部將來還有類似這樣被吃案的情況第二個我覺得應該要追究的是當時的這個署長他的責任如果當時的署長他是知情 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7323.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7328.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
還刻意去包庇然後沒有做任何的處理我們知道這個張子敬署長他後來還高升了政務委員這個事件發生之後他其實還高升了那這件事情其實應該還是要有一個究責跟檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7340.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7361.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那目前現在監察院他都只針對這個當事人李建鈺但是當時的這個署長呢我不知道你現在掌握到的資料你們內部同仁給你的資料當時的署長到底是知情還是不知情因為連公文裡面他好像都有看過啦他怎麼會是不知情呢你們現在掌握到的訊息是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7361.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7386.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
包委員那個監察院他有一定的報告而且他的確有針對前署長他的有哪一些不周疏失有做出檢討那我就不能用我的角度來評斷那檢討這件事情呢我後來就請了外部委員總共有五個委員都是外部的跟我們無關的那重新來檢視當時的行政的機制那他們其實也建議了提出了這個懲處名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7387.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7412.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那當然啦 懲處有兩種一個是有的人留在部內那我們可以做那有的已經離開了那我們就會請他現在的單位去做處理那因為有的官階比較高他是政務官那這個呢 就要報請行政院來處理所以當時最後出來的結果的確有很高的那我的確是也跟卓院長報告那卓院長也鼓勵我就是公開事實就是事實所以我們就也這樣還付這個監察院來進行處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7414.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7435.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
所以你們就已請監察院處理了嗎已經有回覆這個監察院正式來處理好這個本席非常贊成這樣的處理模式該究責就應該要究責因為就像你講的這種性騷甚至已經涉及到性騙這絕對是零容忍那如果作為首長竟然還包庇的話那這更的是助長這樣的一個犯罪這個絕對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7437.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7444.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
沒有辦法接受的事情那這一個部分就謝謝我們部長的處理接下來我要問你的是關於你們現在的監理你今天報告裡面特別提到廢清法將來還要再修法那跟廢清法有關的現在我們看到的一些大量的廢棄物 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7455.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7481.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
他還是去找一些場地像這個新竹球場他這個大祕寶挖出大量的廢棄物那顯然他就是沒有走你們現在正常的程序就是申報如實的申報所以還是採這種違法的清道最近這個桃園的社宅也被發現他的那個基地裡面開挖出來也是大量的這種廢棄物我要問的就是部長在這一個部分的監管跟監理 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7483.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7488.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我覺得還是有很大的改善的空間那你今天的報告也特別提到說未來的廢清法就是你要去加重這樣相關的這個罰則除了這個之外在管理的監督的機制上面你們到底還可以怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7500.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7522.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
好,報告委員喔,這件事情就是涉及營建土石房跟營建廢棄物那我看這個新竹的球場應該是營建廢棄物啦那目前呢其實因為過去長期幾十年來就是內政部跟環境部都有中間有一些灰色地帶然後跟地方政府之間的協調,所以包含他的整個管理機制的確是不完善的 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7522.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7545.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
所以其實我們過去這幾個月也跟跨部會甚至跟地方政府在協調當中很快的大概應該近期就會對外有一個平台的機制然後管理的機制或是電子圍籬的機制新的機制會再出來也請委員給我們一點點時間因為這個非常大的一個架構那我們當然是希望廢清法的修正可以給這個嚴懲重罰會讓它更有力道 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7547.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7551.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
因為這樣的情況我個人就看到是還蠻氾濫的非常氾濫所以這個部分我真的希望你們可以加把勁就是嚴加的查查因為像這個整個是利益業者自己拿去了但是環境的毀壞這個破壞的就是環境而且利用這樣的非法去謀業者的利益我覺得這一塊正是你們公權力應該要加大力道 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7574.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7601.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那我很希望你說你要跟內政部合作在平台還有地方政府所以我們也都積極跟地方政府因為有幾個縣市例如說台北新北桃園都是產出的自己縣市無法去化都移到新竹桃園去新竹苗栗去倒的所以基本上或是中部就往南部去倒的確這個去化管道不足的問題還有管理機制的問題我們現在是一個一個在釐清在克服 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7601.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7622.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那你們大概還要多久時間?現在的確,因為這個包含委員我來政府服務就發現說這個跨部會是最辛苦的行政院要人出來幫你啊?有有有,這個院長都非常支持在做這個事情我們大概近期應該很快就會來對外做宣布因為這個也涉及到包含的地方這是一個非常大的工程 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7623.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7641.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那我希望完整之後再跟委員統一的報告好我希望這一個部分加把勁這一部分的監禮我一直覺得從過去到現在事實上還是很多漏洞所以讓非法的業者就是有洞可鑽影響我們環境其實還蠻大的好不好希望繼續努力謝謝好謝謝接下來請圖權級委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7657.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7659.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
好 謝謝主席 那請我們彭部長 請部長圖委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7665.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7688.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那在去年9月的時候我們環境部有公布一個全台SRF的體檢報告那個時候我們看到報告上面有48家的SRF廠有12家是不合格的那不合格率有達25%那也經過了半年的輔導期不知道現在這輔導的成效如何請我們署長來回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7690.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7718.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那現在就是我們的辦法發布之後那才有我們的法源去要求說他重新來檢視他的費薪書或者是程序可是後來看輔導結果目前好像還有30%到48%好像幾乎也快一半好像目前成效不是很好那有些業者他輔導之後他決定要退出那其中有7家是退場5家轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7719.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7742.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那其他的部分呢是是他們自己素質稱之不齊還是我們環境部這一方面沒有輔導好像有些你們的報告也說還有一些確實是成效不好那他們都退場嗎不好都退場嗎我們也有在輔導說他願不願意來這個轉型那因為還是有些因為現在我們的要求會比較高譬如說空氣標準會加嚴 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7744.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7753.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
還有我們要做一些檢測那所以這些讓他們要投入比較多的成本那把這個環境可以把它顧好那品質也可以做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7754.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7779.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
對啊 因為這部分我們說我們前端原料管控一定要做好雖然那時候部長有答應說我們在後端排放氣體的標準要加鹽你後端加鹽可是前端這個原料管控也是很重要不然它裡面的原料沒有管控它到時候燒出來的還是帶澳鮮這對民眾的健康一定有很大的問題而且目前部長應該也知道目前關於這SRF廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7780.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7800.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
他現在也還是在興建那現在我們也擔心說這個原料跟排放標準我們希望能夠嚴格的管制來制定好不然這民眾現在還是有很大的疑慮包委員因為我們這個SRF這個我們也設計了一個白皮書近期這個最後版本因為我們其實訂了之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7801.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7822.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
很多的廠商也來反映說太嚴太嚴太嚴可是就是嚴他們有感表示說我們訂的法規有效所以目前的的確經過那個溝通之後我們正式會再出來那這個就是一個依循的這個根據的樣本所以目前的其實我們就希望說的確沒有辦法參與的我們感謝他那未來的我們就是用更好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7823.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7845.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
未來如果你好好做可以賺到錢可以往前走我們就鼓勵你要符合我們的環境的法規來進行那如果不行的你還要我們輔導我們可以協助你那如果真的你不想做那只好請你離開對啊所以因為我最記得部長講喔你說台灣的SRF被污名化那我說因為你的標準就是垃圾焚化爐的標準所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7846.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7872.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
你不要讓它被污名化當然要把這個原料還有它排放的標準一定要制定像人家先進國家歐美日韓這樣才能解除民眾心中的疑慮啊因為你都用垃圾場的標準民眾當然不願意讓你進場去設置嘛沒錯沒錯所以我希望說這一部分還是要嚴格管控啊要真正讓SRF能夠落實那民眾當然才能夠放心嘛好 謝謝 謝謝委員的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7872.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7892.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
好 那接下來就是也感謝部長上一次我們有到陽梅跟觀音考察垃圾處理場這部分問題那部長也有承諾在明年底會完成全台垃圾山這些裸露附土這些問題那是不是確定都這個進度在明年底前都可以完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7893.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7921.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
包委員因為現在那個數字還沒有開始正式進行準備要動下半年應該會比較快那也請委員到時候來監督那我因為當地這個場我們跟委員去過了我也請委員那個當地的里長因為里長感同身受所以我也邀請他說我們明年年底完成了之後請委員還有里長一起來見證所以我們是盯著很緊就盯著我們這個環管署一起來進行這個事情所以也請委員放心我們會積極來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7923.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7945.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
對 因為現在馬上又夏天到了每次這周邊的住戶對於這垃圾場因為夏天溫度越來越高這蚊影滋生 這惡臭真的嚴重影響到他們的生活環境所以這個部分一到夏天這民眾真的是怨聲載道那當然我們也說部長有允諾說明年底全部完成我們也希望說能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7946.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7973.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
照部長講的盡快把它完成因為這個民眾生活周邊的環境真的對他們影響很大好沒問題好那而且那時候我們也有針對有提到垃圾清潔員休息室的整備還有購買相關車輛這部分因為我們也希望讓我們這些清潔隊員喔能夠有好的工作環境還有相關車輛的購置像山貓挖土雞啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7974.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8001.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
或者轉運這些車輛那也可以提升垃圾處理的量能那賽斯環保局有提出相關的補助計畫那不知道這部份的進度如何包委員環保局的確有跟我們提出這樣的想法那他們如果真的開始因為他們只有告訴一個大概就像委員提的這個樣子那如果他們真的有需求就真的可以送申請書來那我們如果預算還餘裕的話我們就會盡快來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8002.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8026.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
他們現在還沒有申請進來好那這個計畫提上來的時候也希望我們環境部部長來大力支持一下好沒問題沒問題謝謝好那接下來還有因為在上週我們河安會主委陳明珍主委有說非核家園延逸10年可減輕我國現在的供電壓力不知道部長對這部分有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8027.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8042.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
因為我不是核能的主管機關啦齁但是我們會關注這個減碳的工具那的確核能是減碳是有一些用處的但是也跟委員報告因為我們也很努力的去看國際能源總署喔IEA他的報告其實如果要 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8042.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8061.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
其實我們現在不能叫延役了,要叫做重啟了那如果重啟的話第一個他的經費還蠻多的一個機組大概都是500億起跳的那第二個是他也要一個時間那以日本的經驗都是5到10年平均大概5、6年左右所以基本上這個恐怕不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8062.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8087.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
一個這麼簡單按一個鍵就可以在那個他比買一台買一個房子還要很謹慎所以基本上目前我們是的確是說如果要淨零的話核能未來我可以估計說2030年新的核能如果起來的話真的有需求但是目前來看的話如果我們要去重啟的話基本上趕不上現在的這個時間的確有這個問題存在所以因為我們都有在開這個氣候變遷委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8092.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8114.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那賴總統有一再強調2050淨零碳排這個目標不會改變那當然我們也說核安會主委有講這核電的研議確實能夠減輕他供電的壓力那是不是核電研議就像部長剛剛講其實核電研議其實對於我們2050淨零碳排這個目標是不是也有幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8114.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8139.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
而包吻是有幫助但是有但書但是他其實花的錢很多第二個是是不是因為我們沒有針對像日本一樣完整的去做這個斷層或是核電廠的細部的評估所以我自己在決定這個淨零藍圖的時候我就發現說哇這樣其實我沒有辦法決定控制看得到的事實所以基本上我們目前淨零的路徑是沒有核能存在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8140.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8156.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
所以其實如果單就以環境部淨零碳排的這方面考量來講其實核電的研議對於淨零碳排是有幫助的嗎?對,報告委員環境部應該有兩個觀點第一個是對淨零碳排有幫助啊但是其實這個核電廠當時興建的時候並沒有環評這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8159.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8179.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
就是說對於這件事情沒有一個完整的檢查跟社會的溝通所以如果說我們現在要重啟的話我認為社會會期待說和安會在管理的時候要更詳細那基本上依照我們對環評的了解或共識的話真的要花上不少的時間啦而且溝通的成本還有金額都非常的大 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8180.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8198.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
好 因為我們一直部長也知道我們其實一直都很支持我們近年碳排這個目標那當然我們覺得政府不是只要訂目標應該要有具體的方案務實去走去達成這個目標那現在河山演義這一部分問題也請部長環境部我們務實的來面對來了解說是不是對 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8204.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8229.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
淨零碳排這一方面的幫助那也希望能夠朝著淨零碳排我們總統這個目標我覺得這個也是趨勢也是大家希望的淨零碳排2050那我們要去做我們當然要階段性不是說只目標定在那邊沒有具體的方案所以像我們這些有可能對於淨零碳排有幫助的這一部分我希望環境部我部長也能夠務實的來面對好 謝謝 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8231.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8239.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
好謝謝部長那大家一起努力謝謝好謝謝好現在我們休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8263.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8263.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8828.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8832.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
好現在開會我們請還沒到嗎還好好現在開會我們請牛喜廷委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8857.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8860.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
謝謝主席 彭部長有請有請彭部長部長早安今天要跟你討論一下這個噪音防治的問題大概分成兩個部分因為這個跟人民生活最貼近有關的污染源除了空氣啊這大家常常講之外恐怕噪音是一個近期尤其在都會地帶非常老民的一個大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8881.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8903.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那它分成兩個主要的來源第一個當然就是所謂的公寓大廈內部的鄰居之間的這種摩擦這種噪音這種高低樓層等等的這是一個那另外一個當然是噪音車那我們就分別來做探討第一個想請教一下有關於近鄰噪音的部分部長你大概知道說有關於這種這種鄰居之間的噪音的處理現在是用哪一套法規哪一套規則在做在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8905.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8926.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
管理嗎對社會秩序維護法阿包委因為我以前也檢舉過你也檢舉過我檢舉過例如說一樓在營業的然後他半夜在唱KTV然後那大概就是環保局第一個是看狀況有的是警察局會來有的環保局會來查核因為他還有低頻噪音等等你自己做過檢舉人齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8927.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8954.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
然後你回答也非常快速 表達概念非常清楚也就是說 實務上在這種鄰居啊 大樓的這種噪音你很快的回答是社會秩序維護法但你知不知道 因為前一陣子上個禮拜我們內政委員會才在審查社會秩序維護法的一些修正案你知不知道警政署啊實際上在執行這一套法規的時候對於現在這一套遊戲規則的評價是什麼覺得很老民 老警察對警察來講是負擔你知不知道它實際上的執行率是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8955.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8970.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
應該很低非常低對不對所以你們政府部門彼此之間也知道就是說用社會秩序維護法來解決鄰居之間的噪音這個恐怕都很難成案原因是什麼其實最重要是噪音的本身一定要監測啦所以我記得我那時候檢舉的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8971.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8994.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
例如說他12點還在唱KTV 影響到聲音都傳上來 然後沒辦法睡覺那當然後來就是講好說 我們會通報他然後那個環保局的這個稽查人力會來我們那個地方實際上是量或去查核 然後就會開發那其實應該是地方的環保局的人力不過我也跟委員報告 因為台北市整個稽查人力就100多個而已所以其實就是人力不夠啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8995.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9024.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
他現在有其實幾個問題啦就持續性嘛跟良策的問題簡單來講就是沒有儀器也沒有標準啦簡單來講是這樣因為社會秩序維護法主管當然就是警政署就是警察去處理但大部分警察絕對不會有儀器也沒有辦法界定標準那更更因為現在這個都會區公寓大廈很多有些還用公寓大廈你還要等管委會那基本上大廈裡面的管委會管委會還沒有公權力所以沒有儀器沒有標準沒有公權力就是用社會秩序維護法來處理大樓噪音的一個困難之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9025.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9045.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那很多時候我們那時候在內政委員會在討論這個法案的修正的時候很多人都講說其實環境部應該要多一點角色啊比如說噪音管制法你只是把這個東西丟到社會秩序維護法結果它罰則不夠重然後又沒有辦法量測然後也沒有辦法執行那它其實實務上形成了法律的漏洞那從環境部的角度有沒有什麼方法可以把這個漏洞給補起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9046.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9071.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
基本上我那時候處理的情況到最後我跟委員分享一下基本上透過我們的環保的集合人力那當然那個其實現在很多的縣市做得很好啦我去的時候大概隔天就會來查了我打1999就來查了然後另外一個是我也打到110去報案警察也來查了他們有分工啦有分工啊這個其實這兩個做就有很顯著嚇阻的效果我 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9073.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9094.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
這就本席的了解跟我們常說收收到選民成型的數量顯然並沒有因為這一套機制的運轉而有顯著的改善喔這問題反而還是很多還是很多啦因為人力還是不夠啦那怎麼辦呢沒有沒關係我們先把問題打開我一向都會給行政機關一點時間去做思考是不是在噪音管制法的部分也要有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9095.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9120.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
加強或者是把法規補上這是一種可能另外一種可能是環境部的角度你可以提供地方基層在執法的時候你提供什麼樣的工具也好人力的補充也好等等更好的一個後勤資源這也是一種解決的方法這我要求環境部我給你一個月的時間你稍微去思考一下然後你們內部專業考量一下必要的時候爭取一下警政署的意見好大家去想一下怎麼把機制完善可以嗎好可以好這是有關大樓噪音的部分第二個是噪音車啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9121.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9143.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
這個環境部現在新制嘛比如說排氣管等等要納管等等現在上路你們覺得執行的狀況怎麼樣目前最有效的是這個噪音的偵測的這個開閥的設備對現在有移動式的這個科技執法嘛對不對或多或少都有效果然後各個縣市都非常的希望環境部多補充相關的經費提供更多套的設備現在預算有增編嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9144.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9170.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
呃這個部分在爭取當中啦希望爭取公共建設的經費大概其實因為一台大概一百多萬嘛一台一百多萬沒錯我們在爭取當中啦好這個部分我希望環境部這個地方要大力的給地方支持啦或者是地方也許未來財務法修正他也會多編經費都好只要可以解決人民生活都好但我還是要從法規面的角度來討論這件事情啦就是說即便有抓到以現行的狀況罰個三千六你要回來再檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9170.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9195.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
然後很多東西不了了之你更不用講他有很多這個上有政策下有對策我想在徹底的提高罰則並且用最嚴重的手法來處分恐怕是有極必要的我剛剛看了一下大概這個立法院現在有九個提案跟這個噪音管制法的修正跟噪音車相關的橫跨不同的黨派民眾黨民進黨國民黨都有那除了普遍的提高罰金的額度之外有比較重像本席的提案就直接說要扣牌嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9196.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9212.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
如果說你被抓到不管你是用移動式的或怎麼樣你抓到確定有問題也超標了你就是直接扣牌你要不要用這種雷力風行的方式來徹底把這個噪音車的問題給處理掉我現在請教一下環境部針對噪音管制法針對噪音車提高罰則甚至到扣牌的官方的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9214.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9231.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
我的個性是我一定嚴格處理的但是執行上我必須考慮到現實的執行有沒有辦法做得到因為我們也遭遇到很多的車子就是車主他來抱怨說那個噪音的標準的設備可能沒有那麼完善其實我們也遇到這樣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9232.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9254.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
所以可能要再一段時間把他確定開罰的這個角度有沒有辦法做得到甚至有沒有這個社會的溝通還要一段時間啦所以我個人是主張是強力的因為這個噪音就是讓民眾這個睡不好其實也吃不好其實是非常老民是很討厭的事情嘛這部長自己有檢舉過的經驗大家就會比較放心因為表示你可以感同身受 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9255.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9281.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
本席的意思是講這很多不同委員的版本其實你調高罰則它是有裁量空間的嘛也就是說我最嚴重的時候我可以扣牌或者說我可以重罰好幾萬等等但你上下限的距離拉開一點給你環境部更多的裁量空間我想應該就沒有問題嘛因為你實務上你那把界線要劃在哪裡你的相關的這個收證的設備啊實務上的溝通狀況它其實可以是可以調整的但是你如果不把法律的空間撐出來加大 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9282.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9301.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
你環境稽查跟警察在第一線的裁量的權力的話那恐怕還是會無法遏制嘛我這樣講的話會不會比較部長比較能夠接受對這個謝謝委員的這個支持啦如果我們朝這樣因為台灣還是要更安寧啦這個也是我們的目標好那部長會不會希望這個法案盡速的來排審來進入審查呃我們還沒有提對因為我們還你們會環境部會提對岸嗎對對就是說針對噪音車的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9311.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9336.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我們來思考一下喔 我們可以來配合委員會思考一下 因為這個問題比大樓噪音的問題 我覺得還更嚴重啦就是說它造成大家的破壞安寧等等所以大家對於修法嚴打噪音車這件事是有高度期待的那你要多少時間 你要準備的話可能一個月 其實我們自己關注一個就是說很多大樓在興建工程其實也造成很不舒服所以這個我們希望整個統一來看這個事情一個月可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9337.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9362.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
一樣 既然都我剛剛講你大樓內部的針對社會法這一段你有一個月的時間那噪音社會也就一個月好不好針對現在都會區大家關心的噪音問題一個月之內要有明確的說法如果你明確你也許有一個這個官方的版本也很好就可以加速大家的討論但如果沒有我本期是個人是希望雖然我不是會員委員會的委員但我也希望噪音管制法可以盡速來進行排案跟這個審查的部分可以嗎好 可以好 謝謝部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9364.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9365.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們彭部長 有請彭部長李委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9389.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9408.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
部長 上次那個大事件 你剛才也稍微提一下 改天我們再來討論好了好 但是我們今天要討論廢清法廢清法第71條 假扣押的制度在實務上大概是形同虛設 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9409.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9437.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
就是說廢清法第71條規定主管機關依廢清法第71條第一項規定代為清除廢棄物後向醫務人求償必要費用時若醫務人不願意繳納環保機關應有權向法院申請假扣押但是在實務上你去行政法院對假扣押的審查極為嚴格我們很多都被駁回 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9437.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9456.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那更多的是我們連申請都不願意申請那我現在是要以高雄高等行政法院112年度全治第21號裁定為例為什麼要談這個是因為我們都很害怕法院的判決會變成判例法院的單一個案的判決成為判例 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9461.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9473.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那這個影響就很大那高雄高等行政法院112年度的這個裁定是這樣子環保局預估代為清理的費用是92746243元所以依法申請假扣押 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9479.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9495.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那申請人雖然是在高雄高等行政法院但申請人是台南市政府環保局申請的理由包括相對人藉其了人為繳納預估帶旅行清理非法棄置的廢棄物的費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9496.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9503.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
他沒有自己去繳錢那也沒有提出清理廢棄物的意願閒留隱匿或移轉財產的可能這是地方政府申請的寫的原因結果被法院認為市民不足而駁回 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9514.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9532.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
解釋的是明白的明 視明不足而不回法院是這樣看的 第一點關於廢清法第71條第一項環保機關必須實際執行待清理才能夠依照廢清法向相對人請求清理費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9533.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9554.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那由於申請人沒有提供足夠的證據去證明已經開始執行清理因此法院難以認定他們有已成立的公法上的金錢債權也就是說申請人沒有取得合法的清償權利所以沒有辦法依據此去申請假扣押 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9556.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9579.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
第二個 關於行政執行法第29條第二項即便相對人沒有在期限內履行清理義務法院認為 這個可能比較大的問題在這裡申請人所提供的證據只能證明請求清理費的原因但不足以證明相對人有資產轉移或無法執行的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9581.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9587.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
你可能看到他沒有交錢但你沒有要證明你現在就是可以吃苦鴨因為你沒有要證明這個人他要把他的財產轉移換言之法院不認為單純未繳納帶旅行費用就足以證明相對人將來無法強制執行所以因此駁回吃苦鴨申請台灣社會大家也知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9604.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9606.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
高等行政法院 高雄行政法院認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9622.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9644.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
撥回扣押的申請所以我們現在這個事情我們也跟你問過了環境部叫你們提供過去五年依廢清法第七十一條第一項主管機關申請假扣押的案件你們說啊你們說這個一共主管機關申請假扣押有三件法院准許兩件撥回一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9646.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9663.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那該駁回案的金額是五億四千多萬駁回的理由是因為申請人對相對人的金錢給付債權或請求權尚未發生意思就是說你剛才不開錢 你剛才不去請你現在就要去請了 開錢 開了啊這可以給你吃褲子啊你如果等你開錢了 請了啊你剛才開始請的時候他就脫線了啦 脫線了啊書面我們都知道啊 但是啦 這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9676.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9703.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
換你這樣認定 我最怕是成為判例法院都這樣講 因為現有的法律現有的法律工具看起來也的確長得很像藉其不為清除處理時地方政府主管機關或執行機構得待為清除處理並向其上面的這些有責任的人求償清理改善及衍生之必要費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9703.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9714.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
借期如果沒有清償者 移送強制執行所以法律工具的確就是你要清料啊 才可以去吃褲子不用說大家也糟糕糟糕保證你對這個實務面 土法不足以執行如果法律工具也有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9722.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9749.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
執行面也有問題為什麼這麼久都沒有處理過好 包委員您提到的都是重點就是我們跟那個檢警調還有一個平台其實討論的就是委員您說到的問題就是裡面的核心那目前呢我們希望修法的就是71條裡面希望說還是一樣我有看到對 我們希望這個部分能夠再加強我現在先講一下您的行政處我說喔 您到底過去五年啊當年政府有去申請車庫以後您說三件嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9750.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9778.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
其實這三件裡面我剛剛講的那一件112年的這一個文號判例裁定其實你們也不放在裡面都沒有放在裡面所以柏定你們這個假扣押的案件跟數據你提供個立委的到底是怎麼算的為什麼才這個寥寥可數啊個案沒幾件然後就可以這樣子我如果看到那一件你如果不說那一件你如果不說提供的資料都不全 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9780.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9809.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
委員我請署長來回覆署長認識他三十年了我們所提供的那個資料是指找不到行為人的那個部分然後再去就是找不到行為人71條第一項沒有在管有沒有找得到行為人有行為人更好抓到了更好沒有的話也有善良管理人責任的第九大家都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9811.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9832.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我告訴你 我要跟你討好資料說你有去申請藉口押這五年到底有幾件你有立委的資料說三件 立委自己去找來就一件 你就沒有列入在內啊你如果提供立委的基本資料就提供不全耶我怎麼想說你們可能整個部都沒有人在管這個事情吧你現在就跟我說未來修法會處理未來修法就可以解決了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9840.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9859.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
未來修法你們未來的修法你們要預告假扣押制度但是法院你們沒有明確的去降低市民的標準法院要求需市民義務人有日後不能或難以強制執行之餘這要怎麼舉證 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9862.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9871.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
現在範圍的判例是說他沒有跟你交集也沒有跟你提清理計劃你要怎麼證明這樣他就會脫產 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9874.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9890.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
你的草案未來草案是說修正申請假扣押的時間點但沒有在法條文字中直接降低或修改市民有日後不能強制執行或甚難執行之餘這一個要件的證明標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9893.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9912.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那法院是否會認為,在未來他是不是會認為,你來想說,好我換你去改改,我可以先扣押,把扣押的順序不要從這個清理完畢,把它提早到只要一發現行政送達,你都沒回覆,我就馬上給假扣押 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9913.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9937.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
你們是這樣修嘛但是這個未來法院是不是會認為說行政處分以送達他這個本身就足夠構成夾扣押的急迫性和必要性嗎這個在司法實務的見解上可能還會有問題喔而且你們是得或是應還是這個那如果法院能夠維持目前這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9939.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9963.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
比較嚴格的市民標準假扣押的執行都不會產生問題嗎你不知道報委員這個我們把你的意見因為我們現在希望說趕快會籍完了之後可以有一個這個預告啊那我們會把委員的意見看能不能趕得及把這次就把它進行修正不是因為我跟我們我再講一下根據環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9964.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9977.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
曝自己的統計過去五年依照行政執行法第29條除了機關隊為旅行這個清理義務的義務人預估去帶旅行費用並發出繳納命令的案件一共有133件總費用金額高達79億9986萬將近80億 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9984.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9987.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那為什麼會啟動第七十一條第一項因為這個欧美丹 四月份出欧美丹顯然有足聲於環境和健康風險你們才啟動的這一條七十一條第一項嘛阿不然全台灣欧美丹的地方幾十萬啦幾十萬的地方啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10005.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10022.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那為什麼要鎖定第七十一條第一項來討論因為第七十一條第一項啟動的條款顯然就是危害健康危害污染土地 污染地下水土壤等等非常嚴重的你才需要介入在這種狀況裡面你們評估啊在過去五年大家有40年要開啦但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10028.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10041.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
真的有來納一年薪 兩千空倍的六萬四千兩百二十二元 2086-4222我的意思是說有八十億的帶旅行費用 只有0.26%的人有繳錢有99.74%是 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10048.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10049.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
想要讓政府買單那據此的話這個狀況的話這個71條第一項我要講現行的現有的法律是這個追償的系統是不好的法律工具有問題失效的不能執行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10066.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10078.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
再調法律 有立跟沒立一樣有這條法律跟沒這條法律一樣這個顯然有兩個問題嘛第一個 法律工具本身有問題第二個 執行面有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10079.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10097.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那顯然這兩個問題都存在顯然這兩個問題都存在而且這麼多年來你現在要修廢清法才說要處理可是在之前就法律工具真的完全這麼不足嗎我們都不要主動去找司法院處理過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10099.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10118.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
那我現在一直要講判例的原因是因為高雄高等行政法院112年度全治第21號的裁定法院認為環保機關必須實際代為清除後使得依廢清法第71條第一項向鄉對人求償必要的費用而且他有示明喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10120.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10134.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
他要求要4名義務人員日後不能強制執行或甚難執行之餘那這種舉證標準幾乎都讓環保機關無法實際運用假扣押制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10135.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10150.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那從實際狀況的執行面來看醫護人根本只要擺爛不繳納反正就交給政府來收拾那從另外一個角度來看行政執行法的代旅行程序或是廢清法第71條第一項的求償這個如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10156.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10175.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
有效的話 如果有效的話 那麼廢清法根本不用設置假扣押的這個機制 所以其實是無效的就是說現有的法律工具71條的這個可以假扣押 或者是行政執行法的代理型程序通通法律工具都無效 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10177.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10179.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那我要再講一個實務面 這個部長最近不法集團在那個碼頭山 高雄的碼頭山自然生態保育區棄置事業費期務一案那檢察官初步的估計 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10194.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10208.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
遷運這個廢棄物的費用大概要超過一億肇事的七名逃犯喔遷運的費用幾億但是抓到了抓到了肇事 這個非法肇事的這些涉嫌人喔幾萬九百 你知道嗎八萬 七萬 五萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10213.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10230.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
交保的金額跟清理費用相比為不足道然後這些背後 只是還有後面的指示集團所以他們很容易脫產 大家都知道沒有辦法假扣押 然後沒有辦法追回這個清理的費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10231.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10246.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
所以在這種狀況裡面環境部在你說要修法之前修法的法律工具我其實覺得這樣夠嗎我是有一個問號但是在這個之前比如說碼頭山這個案子你有沒有具體的對策因為碼頭山那個是屬於要不要回答一下屬於什麼這個都地方政府要去執行的跟我們中央都無關 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10259.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10287.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
署長很簡單,一定這樣說就好了那都地方政府要去做,跟我無關的包委員,那個碼頭山那個齁,應該是犯罪所得是可以扣押得到的,我們從那裡去做處理啦你說什麼所?犯罪所得犯罪所得就是他的不法立得那個部分不法立得,因為貴賓公司很大件的嗎?這個還要再去清查一下你如果沒吃扣押,脫產了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10288.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10292.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
脫產了啦 公司改善了啦 再重新立一間新公司就好了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10294.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10318.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
你們在這裡跟立委講的你有沒有想過你說這麼幼稚的回答沒聽到這個回答這麼幼稚你現在的動作你不是幼稚園的學生喔你當成林淑薇是笨蛋還是白癡嗎你當成未還委員會的委員是笨蛋還是白癡嗎你當立法院的立委中華民國立法院的立委都是笨蛋還是白癡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10320.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10344.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
你跟我說這是生肖欸保證你覺得這個會不會打成效我就是希望說這個可以如何才可以更好啦那委員的提的建議你都這樣說你都說虛的沒有啦沒有啦這個現在其實希望修正的希望委員的意見我們可以再進來我就跟你講啦這個是立法這個是環境部最核心的業務不是去談 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10346.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10371.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
節能減碳 碳費 碳稅不是剛剛講的那個綠能不是為什麼會有這種非法氣質最源頭就是你們管理的不好你們信業廢棄物的管理就是很爛才會有廢物這個廢棄物毀壞的才會有污染土地 污染地下水上游的管理就出問題了才會有這種小小事數在外面亂丟 亂氣質 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10375.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10377.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
所以你的喪友全部都沒有管好耶你的書店就在那裡是非管理都出很多問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10385.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10405.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
然後在問你問到這個東西你又在這裡虛以為疑過去五年主管機關對未履行清理義務的義務人須預估待履行費用並依行政執行法發出繳納命令的總案件數是133依據廢清法第七十一條第一項主管機關待會清除或處理廢棄物並向清理義務人求償費用的案件總共53件133然後這個有去 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10416.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10441.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
提出球場費用的只有53那133只有53去提出要球場只有三件去申請假扣押請問部長你們有沒有研究一下主管機關為什麼沒有積極的申請假扣押的原因是什麼為什麼認為規則有機會轉移資產為什麼老是幫政府要幫這一種犯罪的人在那裡擦屁股呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10442.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10447.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
或是為盡善良管理人責任的人在那裡插屁股呢在環境保護跟公帑帶清除之間 要怎麼取得平衡啊擋不擋的抗人民支開 這個緊急忽然之餘 我們今天先去清澳有些地方沒有錢 中間有變價的錢 有沒有變得高沒有啦 中間沒有變價的錢啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10467.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10491.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那如果危害健康和環境之餘的怎麼辦?危害健康和環境之餘的喔,就跟他斷了,繼續斷了所以面臨一個這麼嚴重的問題,違規棄置非棄物等查到的時候,土林土甲書店說的,炸的就算了,還要再給我動罪,可以追回不法所得不法利得,騙笑欸,政府根本追不回來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10492.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10515.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
而且司法機關的審查速度也沒有辦法及時配合等到法律程序跑完違規者早就資產轉移不要講等到法律程序啦你們自己內部還在這樣子跟立委講話政府乾瞪眼 立委在那裡說到有錢沒拿 也是沒好最後都是全民買單或是全民給放在那因為地方政府不編列這個預算 擺爛因為球場也球場不回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10520.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10532.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
所以政府的預算這麼有限面對這些非法棄置的問題所以如果沒有立即危害或是到健康或是公共這個環境甚至有立即危害你也是不會做啦這樣狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10538.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10546.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
所以你們提供的資料 到今年2月20日為止 非法棄置的列管案件1130件解除列管的690件 持續列管的440件 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10553.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10558.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
這個氣質的長殖類型多樣 廢棄物的種類數量長殖位置 清理成本不一 連平均清理成本都算不出來這樣子下去喔 大家有用看用歐北豆 沒要緊 釀沒中 釀中也太善 沒要緊 它變成破窗效應 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10577.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10592.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
大家別的違規則看到政府不處理可以更肆無忌憚制度面有破洞 抓不到 靠不到問題越來越嚴重好 我知道你一直看我啦 我把時間最後講一下啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10594.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10615.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我們幫這些違規的人擦屁股 是在圖利私人 可是不處理的話也不行那監察院有對你們做幾個這個建議啊監察院調查報告有建議說 刻以行則啊沒有這個依法提供 或是沒有提交處理計畫書或清理廢棄物直接刻以行則啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10617.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10643.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
第二個 假扣押制度的改革明確的降低假扣押的舉證標準或規定特定情況下可推定有假扣押原因存在以增加環保機關保全球場權利的可能性那你們提出的版本是不是就足以構成這樣的一個條件到時候我們可以來看看但是還有一個比照土屋法修法所講土屋法當初就在講了你不要讓我抓到 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10645.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10668.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
抓到的時候 污染者如果是公司 不是公司解散了就好了公司的負責人主要股東或者是連間接控制公司的投資人都要負擔清理費用永遠跑不掉負最終的清理責任公司倒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10668.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10678.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
污染責任還是存在普法就說即使企業因為合併分割或其他方式消失負責任股東仍然要付清理費 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10680.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10695.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
違規不繳清理費 還可以加收滯納金和罰款讀法第43條 強制規定無難者不繳清理費 除了收0.5%每天喔0.5%的滯納金 超過30天 還要罰款20到100萬來 給我放下去所以林費清罰 跟剛才說的一個假扣押 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10706.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10709.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
畢竟我剛才說這有道理嗎比照圖無法公司改善主要的投資者負責人大股東都負連帶永遠的最終的清理責任跑不掉沒得六次納金阿哥吃苦鴨阿哥罰款連續罰一直罰罰到一破三這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10735.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10758.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
委員你的建議非常好啦你們的版本都沒有這監察院調查報告也建議我會把委員的建議把它放在我們預告的法規裡面好 那就要修正一下喔好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林淑雯委員發言鄭振前委員 鄭振前委員 鄭振前委員那接下來請葉元之委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10766.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10769.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
麻煩請環境部長謝謝有請馮部長又有人好部長好因為川普的關稅政策大家在討論說碳稅要不要延後徵收那您的說法我有看到兩個不同版本所以利用這個機會再跟你確認一下第一個版本是你講說是絕對不會緩徵的會如期的 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10789.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10819.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
第二個說法是前兩天我看到媒體報導你說現在講這個還言之過早如果要做決定的話要等對等關稅決定後再來有效評估那到底是哪一個版本包委員第一個是我們現在完全不知道關稅最後的談判的結果是如何對台灣的衝擊影響如何所以我們現在真的說什麼還太早那另外一個呢所以是有可能緩爭只是現在不能做決定沒有因為其實包委員因為我們所有的碳費占企業的整個營收或是毛利都 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10819.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10844.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
我確定營收的部分都是零點零幾所以就是不會緩徵我現在只是確定你講的到一點點因為你一開始講說絕對不會再怎麼樣都不會後來說法是看狀況看那個對等關稅訂多少我們再來決定所以其實實際上是都不會緩徵再怎麼樣都不會緩徵我們必須很溫暖的對業者因為現在其實業者很憂心所以我不想要太這麼直接的所以你說那個說再決定是 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10845.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10866.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
是溫暖的對業者實際上沒有要緩爭的但不能給人家錯覺啦我問一下部長喔你最近因為包括行政院長還有很多部會首長都有下鄉嘛都有去跟一些業者座談你有參加過類似的座談嗎沒有你都沒有參加都沒有那所以你你認為說對業者不會有影響是你自己的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10867.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10892.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
還是說有跟業者有溝通過因為那些業者在近期都要繳納自主減量的計畫嘛那才有優惠的費率那目前呢其實我們會陸續收到那當然有些業者也的確有不一樣的聲音來跟我們反映所以我們也了解那其實包含了院長也或是總統在下降的時候也有幫我們做一些回應啊所以其實我們大概都知道大家的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10892.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10906.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
是喔 所以你每人沒有參加是由院長或總統幫你回應我建議說因為我聽到的一些聲音跟你可能不一樣啦所以我建議如果有類似的機會部長應該也要去跟他們面對面了解實際狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10908.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10931.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
那像碳費這個東西他不是說只要繳碳費而已其實實際上在事先很多作業就要花很多成本進去譬如說他要做碳盤查或這些東西其實你去可以了解一下到底做這些事情對於現在目前企業假設已經面臨到比較困難的經營這一塊有什麼影響啦環境部可以協助什麼如果你走到第一線的話我覺得是比較好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10931.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10959.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
但是因為今天聽你講好像比較硬你覺得說已經沒有改的空間了就一定要收了就是攤費是一定要收的我建議還是去跟業者接觸一下第二個我想跟你問一下這也是川普關稅政策引發出來的一個議題我們現在也在呼籲說是不是利用這個機會對於貨物稅好好的檢討一下因為川普認為說台灣有一些比如說汽車來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10960.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10976.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
貨物稅太高了這是非關稅的貿易障礙那每一次我們在財政委員會跟財政部建議財安部都會把環保這個議題拿出來講他就說因為如果貨物稅存在的話那可以鼓勵大家舊車換新車用減免貨物稅的方式那這個目的就是環保 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10979.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11002.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
第二個就是現在如果買電動車那貨物稅也會比較低其實這也是為了環保我說那個財政部在跟環境部在這一塊有溝通過為什麼他認為他認為這種方式是最環保因為理論上來講你如果貨物稅全面降低的話包括進口車包括國內的我們自製的國產車全部降下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11003.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11020.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那對於你降低一點點貨物稅去鼓勵以救換薪絕對效果會更好啊我們現在的汽車絕大多數都是要必須要符合環保法規法有吧有我們現在汽車應該都有環保非常嚴格的那你的車價全面下降誘因會更大啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11021.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11035.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
絕對不會說你要換車給你降個五萬塊的貨物稅我覺得相較以來誘因是應該是全面下降誘因更大那所有車子假設換的比較多新車又都是符合環保法規的那應該更環保啊我想問部長啊就 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11037.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11051.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
環保的角度你覺得財政部講的這個對嗎因為我有看到經濟部已經表態喔他說他認為他認為汽機車的貨物稅是可以調降的限制只有財政部不願意那從環保的角度不知道怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11052.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11074.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
因為如果說電動車低排放的跟原有的油車其實它有一個價差那這個是鼓勵大家的一個做法鼓勵大家換電動車但是因為整個關稅或貨物稅是整個對國際的一個談判那這個我們是尊重我是說如果全面降貨物稅如果大家不管你換電動車換有電車換到有環保法規的車那不是更環保嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11079.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11107.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
呃當然啦這個其實因為這個稅率的定義因為我們過去我沒有叫你從那個財政的角度我是說從環保的角度對一定就是多換新車全面下降刺激誘因更環保嘛一定是這樣嘛而且電動車其實有人講說電動車在生產過程當中也沒有比較環保啦因為他會用更多的那個金錢不過委員這樣的一個情況就是說我們整個買的車的人可能擁有車的人會更多那也會造成另外一種空污問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11110.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11118.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
最後一個因為你們在業務報告裡面有提到說現在推動旅宿業一次用旅宿用品減量 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11119.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11139.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
那裡面其實我了解就是有一些業者的反應就是有一個規定講得不是太清楚他說你們這些備品因為現在是不提供嘛但是如果消費者臨時需要仍可向業者索取或購買那這個到底是索取還是購買都可以都可以那這就有這就會有一點點糾紛在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11143.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11169.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
因為有的人就認為說他有的人是有的消費者覺得你要給我免費給我啊有的業者用賣的啊然後他說啊那規那那個財政那個環境部就沒有講得很清楚呃鮑偉因為有些縣市呃其實他們在宣導上面我覺得宣導上用於上或者是一致性上可能要統一一下不然你會你講的很模糊在現場就會造成一些酒粉大家會去炒這個事情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11170.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11191.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
對 其實這個是需要讓大家都習慣啦啊這個題再有一個過渡期 過渡期 對可能還是要去了解 盡量解決一下啦是是是 好 謝謝好 謝謝葉言之委員的諮詢謝謝彭部長的答覆那我們下一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11196.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11209.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
我們下一位麻煩劉建國召委諮詢發言好 謝謝主席 先請 補充議員先開講解你今天請到這裏 你不要再白了請賴署長麻煩賴署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11215.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11241.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
剛剛有委員槌尋說他能關電板一個叫做石油連線到時候怎麼處理另外一個是因為天災地變有損毀那我看你答覆那個委員我覺得你有點胸有不成竹然後你旁邊的幕僚還頻頻點頭因為那個槌尋的委員是要講說是叫清潔隊來處理是不是他還旁邊一直點頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11242.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11254.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
是這樣嗎你要不要打我清楚一點一個是使用年限到了怎麼處理另外一個是使用年限尚未尚未時間時間就是尚未到了然後因為天災地變他損壞了怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11258.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11278.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
跟委員報告在那個使用年限到或者說天災地變就是因為天災的關係他有損壞都可以達到我們有一個碳能板的一個回收專線去來這個集中來回收那另外一部分是說民眾可能有些小的他數量比較少那就可以跟清潔隊來聯絡來回收跟清潔隊來聯絡來回收嘛對不對可以問清潔隊員 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11282.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11311.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
看那個回收的管道是怎麼樣是問清潔隊員回收管道還是請清潔隊員來回收剛剛你的答案是請清潔隊員來回收那你的幕僚跟你一樣都頭一直點哪一個清潔隊有在回收這個小型家用的碳能關鍵板如果是比較小的會說因為它數量它是有稍微大一點可能它的那個回收車沒辦法回收那就要去什麼叫比較小 什麼叫比較大怎麼去界定 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11312.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11338.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
哪一個清潔隊有在收你講的所謂的比較小的這兩個問題就好簡單就好好不好有些是那個它有些它是屋頂那個早期小型的它那個小型的那如果回收車它可以回收你講回收車指清潔隊的回收車嘛對不對哪一個清潔隊的哪一個鄉鎮的哪一區的清潔隊的回收車有在回收可以明確跟我講嗎有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11343.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11359.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
你要不要再確定一下是是那我們是有跟我們的地方簽沒有啦如果有你就先跟我講嘛台北市哪一區還是運線哪一個鄉鎮的清潔隊有在收這個小型的因為天災地變損害的太陽能光電板各位報告我講的是說家戶的是可以一樣家戶啊我再跟你講也是家戶啊就小型家用不是家戶嗎對不對誰在收嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11372.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11373.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
哪一個清潔隊在收嗎跟委員報告我們也是有曾經有這個民眾打來那我們會跟清潔隊那邊來聯絡對你好那你就直接講講你們處理的實力給我聽嘛給委員會聽嘛你打給哪一個清潔隊嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11395.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11411.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
你每天要清災應營的嘛,你自己洗的清澈,你自己不知道,你說清潔堆有你修,我真的問說,對,清潔堆有你修,你又說人家卡住人家來你環保署,所以環境部,所以環境部就聯絡那個地方的清潔堆,好啊,你就跟我說對一下小型家用的太陽光電,因為天災地變損害之後,然後不曉得要找誰收,然後導致你環境部來,那環境部然後再找地方的清潔隊去做回收, |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11427.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11428.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
天吶!天吶!誇張吧!你不會去!你這個事你會做這個事情!這是有些個案啦,我們過去是有...沒有沒有,你有些個案你跟我講個案啊!哪一個清潔隊啊!哪一個鄉鎮的啊!哪一個縣的啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11453.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11481.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
所以我不是要跟台灣吐槽債啦我是要跟你提倡說你這樣回答是有出問題啦那不可能嘛你們有心智跟舊智嘛對不對那舊智我們就不談你的心智也不是這樣啊你的舊智也沒有這樣啊清潔隊就不肯去跟你收小型家用的損害的開門光電板啊那不可能啊那你們自己的制度怎麼樣你們能不能簡單說明一下我時間有限已經佔一半的時間了 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11482.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11511.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
我們的制度現在是由我們是請能源署就在它的短購費率裡面有增加我們太陽能板的費用所以現在是由能源署這邊來幫我們發通知單由一些設置業者來繳錢那目前收的錢的情況是108到12年應收的費用是11萬沒有我沒有在問你多少錢嘛學長不要這樣好不好你們回收流程是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11511.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11515.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
大型營利回收時必須先登入PVIS系統報備環境部會請鄰近業者出一支後向能源署申請相關費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11532.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11552.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
這個已經省略很多了啦其實一般業者都會直接跟這個反正就甲方乙方就會先簽訂合約啦萬一有這些狀況那他們就會通知相關的業者來做處理嘛這是大型的嘛 應該是這樣嘛矯正反矯正的嘛對不對你小型家用你人家可請清潔隊處理之清潔隊登陸PBIS系統轉交於相關業者處理之這個就有問題了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11560.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11572.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
你交給哪一個清潔隊處理之?你為什麼這樣?結果你沒辦法清潔,就跟你處理這件事啊你現在還要回答說個案,然後什麼叫個案?不是這樣啦,我覺得這樣會出很大的問題啦,部長你請上來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11581.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11604.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
組長 這個要討論一下 檢討一下啦 明確啦 好不好我只希望明確 因為你剛剛因為我剛剛有有慶祝在主席台的時候在聆聽你講的時候 我就覺得很差異嘛因為我們都在基層 我們在跑嘛像這種事情我們經常會遇到就我遇到的清潔隊沒有在搜嘛我剛剛還問了別縣市的清潔隊有沒有在搜沒有啊 就沒你收啊 他們就沒在收啊啊這本身藥膠就跟他們簽了合約啊老孫啊就對了 藥膠就叫處理藥膠處理的藥膠去處理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11607.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11630.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
台南關電業者就找處理的業者去做處理啦不管你大型小型嘛那怎麼在你們這個回收程序是完全不一樣所以你才會這麼打嘛那你這麼打就出問題啊就不是這樣啊好 那我為什麼要提醒這個事情106年的時候在我們雲林大V鄉有一個已經沒有在營運的工廠堆了4200桶的消 切 切消液嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11631.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11658.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
不斷的運送很多事情 數據很清楚那時候我們在處理關鍵板的處理相關的這些化學的物品等多久呢?那一桶是五家人的 等四千兩百桶 等多久不知道那最後當然有移送法辦嘛 後來有罰款嘛那後來又判刑啦後來這四千兩百桶的切消費跑去哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11663.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11687.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
四千兩百桶喔我們要做太陽光電如果我們對這事情都沒有掌握我覺得我必須要來跟行政院做反應因為這事情我們不是現在在討論我曾經在院會執行就已經在前前前前的署長你署長的時候就特別提到說這種事情你如果不重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11688.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11715.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
當台灣的能源的政策一直朝這個方向去做發展然後我們又沒有後端後續的一個處理的機制然後讓這四千兩百桶的五加侖的切消費囤亂在那個地方不曉得多久時間是被一個路跑的一個百姓發現到去舉報的咧啊可以堆置在那個地方嗎啊可以堆置這麼久嗎那後續划了判刑了四千兩百桶的五加侖的切消費跑去哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11717.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11727.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
委員這個我們來去了解一下好不好你不可以到現在還不知道啊你到現在還不知道就交代不過去啊補充你可以不知道,你會比較無聊,你會不知道這樣會出問題啊這是當時多麼大的案件都已經見報了而且我們還在院會提出質詢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11743.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11763.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
今天的一個使用連線尚未到齊的太陽能光電板損壞了怎麼處理我們答揮所問我們不小程序處理太陽能光電板的切削液4200桶的5加侖的這麼大的數量到最終最後什麼地方處理掉了怎麼處理的你們不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11766.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11793.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
包委員我們回去查一下這是在107年的時候當然就解除列管了當時是由地方政府提清理計畫書給地方政府審查之後他以清理計畫書的內容去執行那107年到現在因為解列我們再去查一下跟委員報告 以上如果地方政府江老天不熟悉相關的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11795.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11811.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
講藍衣田叫做帶墮叫做堵職的情況之下那我們身為一個主管機關一個監督的單位那我們都不曉得這些東西跑去哪裡環境部到時候不用負責嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11815.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11823.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我沒有針對這兩個數據怎麼做,但是我剛才聽起來一直覺得很奇怪,這不是現在發生的事情,台南關電盤已經40多年了,大型的、家用的怎麼處理,中國已經有絕對有一個統一的標準,我了解的是,清潔廠就沒有在收債,你如果說清潔廠在收債, |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11839.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11846.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
啊你又說情結堆,又被誰欺負你,啊你還搞到情結堆去處理,有情結堆在聽你的話,要表揚是真的要表揚但是我的理解是沒有啊好,委員這個我們回去來檢討一下所以如果通通沒有接受你們的建議,經濟隊沒有去搜,那反之是不是要處分?當然你沒辦法對他處分嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11864.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11887.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
不過我是覺得這樣答覆很不好啦,真的很不好我要提醒部長,兩位署長請回啦我這邊聽到不是針對這兩個署長我是想說,但是這樣答覆是顯然是...我知道你那個報告寫得這麼好啦你讓大家覺得台獨跟印度都寫好但是我是要保證你用人也是有問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11889.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11908.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
我提醒一下,老花署,一樣在這個委會,發生什麼事情,勞動部的老花署,最起勢是北分署,發生那些霸凌的,發生到最後救安基金等等等,到副署長後來遇到什麼狀況,我都不再贅述了。連那個署長,連那個署長兩年內都有101年的異動。 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11912.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11940.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
所以當時的部長對這個事情沒有處理就衍生這樣的問題就剛剛我們也特別提到了 開場白你的第一個被質詢的就是前的警察總隊的隊長嘛我講那個官部很大 但是他就看你大到那裡啊大到他這兒也不容易開關聽到嘛你看那個不是幾案耶 那個不是一兩件耶 那是好幾件耶所以人民會對政府失去信心了連自己公部門的同仁都會對機關所長失去信心了 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11943.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11962.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
環境部怎麼可以做出這樣不好的紀錄沒有道理啊環境部照理講不應該發生這種事情而且也不是只有北花署不是老花署還有台鐵還有台鐵一個案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11966.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11991.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
我今天坦白講我是要針對部長的AI報告啦這個AI到時候這個碳排放的一個處理會增加到你還難預估的這樣的一個程度嘛我是在你的報告裡面有啦有看到你在28項裡面推動數位轉型啦AI協力解決環境啦列出了AI技術解決環境議題內部共用這個行政系統導入AI服務總統盃 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11993.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12016.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
黑客松競賽只有AI應用這樣而已嗎?這個每一個都很難做我們現在其實已經很多的工作都在融入了例如說會議記錄啊然後例如說環評啊等等我們都有在融入啦我們每一個司署都有AI的工作正在進行當中你剛剛散熱的時候你講一句話我聽了真的也覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12017.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12038.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
也覺得非常的敬佩你說表示要先推動環境部的數位轉型然後希望主管們都必須要上數位轉型的課程高級主管要懂得分析數據科長等著要寫程式希望一年後這些主管的能力可以達到被外面資訊公司挖角的程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12040.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12056.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
這補充講的嘛就是我看現在應該不是要下程式是面對這個AI產業的高碳排環境部要怎麼來因應能源署的那個有一個應該是副署長吧他也在講說未來AI半導體這些碳排換 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12057.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12070.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
要如何去降低基本上是沒有辦法的啦這是現實啦我們的報告裡面特別強調國家減碳新目標嘛2030年3.2、3.5分別一對照當時基準是2025的時候要達成減量分別是在2.8、3.2、3.8正負2%嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12086.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12114.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那你有把這些算進去嗎?有包委員,我們現在是規劃2035年的用電需求量是到3500億度啦有把AI可能的需求都算進去了那目前大概是2800億度左右AI如果處理的好嘛,它或許這裡面報告也特別提到嘛它應用於什麼煙露判斷啦、聲音監測啦怎麼潑行石棉瓦屋頂的空間這個分布的季線調查等等等嘛然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12116.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12132.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
然後他或許還有機會管理得當這個是一個講法說AI的能工智能是雙面論他雖然有高碳排的問題但如果產業界的一個評估AI在農業、能源、交通等領域運用得當的話預計還可以為全球經濟貢獻度高達5.2萬美元並減少4%的總溫室氣體的排放量 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12145.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12170.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
是這樣嗎?是對嗎?是但是你的報告裡面我沒有看到因為你分別的30年、32年、35年只是在2%、32年及38年增幅2%對 包委我們是用AI需求的用電量增加放進去但是沒有算出AI讓我們可以減碳的規模我們目前在這個近零的路徑裡面沒有算得出來那我們要跟部長再特別要求一份就是AI對減碳的衝擊與因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12172.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12184.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
比較詳細的報告可以嗎好因為他就跟用電需求啦所以呃好這個我們想辦法來來討論一下內部來討論一下好再幫部長一個月可以嗎好可以謝謝謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝劉建國稍微的發言也謝謝部長的答詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12203.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12214.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
我們接下來請王振旭委員來做詢問謝謝主席 麻煩彭部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12219.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12242.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
王委員好 部長好 謝謝今天看到這個62月的這麼完整的報告過去一年來真的在部長領導下大家非常辛苦有這麼好的一些成績不過剛剛也聽到好多委員還有很多的期許包括說久安還沒處理好事現在新的東西又一直出來這個對我們整個環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12243.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12264.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
的一些業務真的都是一個挑戰跟衝擊也期待在部長繼續努力之下能夠看到更亮眼的成績那今天就根據相關的問題再跟部長來請教一下我們知道4月22日是世界地球日所以總統也依例接見了這個環團的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12266.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12290.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
希望能夠跟環團能夠共同攜手努力來促進台灣永續發展永續未來跟永續幸福部長也在現場有跟這個總統來接見這些環團的代表那針對於相關的議題也進行了非常多的討論環團也非常關切未來這個廢棄物空污等等提案能不能夠持續的來有一些因應的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12291.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12314.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
那總統也針對於討論以後做一些相關的指示希望第一個要能夠強化能源的安全那第二部分就是要核能的議題需要凝聚更多的共識那第三個部分就是持續推動綠能儲備工作那這一些部分不知道部長有沒有一些想法或者應應的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12314.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12334.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
報告委員,因為我當天有發言,跟環保團體一起討論這個議題。我大概重點就是說,第一個,我是那個方濟各教宗的信徒,雖然他過世了,他就是破壞環境就是一種罪。所以我們環境部會積極的跟檢警環一起聯手嚴懲重罰。 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12337.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12358.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
那當然啦現在其實我們廢清法的這個修正呢或是說我們的資源循環推動法就是一種新的方式我們希望把廢棄物的問題呢在這一年內包含法的修正還有制度的完整能夠來進行一個解決那總統是關心這個淨零的問題因為淨零可以讓我們國家在空污的改善是可以更好所以基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12360.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12381.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
總統也交代我們在近年的推動上面社會的溝通特別是環保團體的參與裡面要更開放然後多進行一個社會溝通然後年底的時候提出NDC 3.0正式的版本在國際社會再提出所以基本上這個會議當然不是只有環境部在裡面還有別的部會但是我們是主責彙整大家的意見那我們會把他們的意見一個一個列管 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12383.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12403.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
好期待能夠回應環團的需求把這個環境的永續發展還有永續幸福能夠執行的更好那第二部分是想要跟部長討論一下有一些室內空氣品質的部分因為我長期在醫院工作所以對於醫院的這些或者是大型的建築 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12404.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12432.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
這樣的室內的空氣品質是一直非常的關心因為我們知道尤其是在醫院裡面如果是能夠有很好的這些空氣品質的要求那針對於之前我們所擔心的這些新興的感染或者是相關的問題呢都有比較好的一些方法來做適當的處理其實在100年就已經公佈了這個室內空氣品質管理法 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12432.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12455.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
就是說我們的空瓶法事實上在100年就已經公佈了過了三年以後就開始執行了有關公告第一批來做執行包括大專院校等等到了106年又公佈了第二批來做相關的管理要求包括博物館跟美術館等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12456.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12470.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
那到了要第三批的時候應該理論上是在109年就要開始公布第三批不知道是什麼原因後來就做一些調整那這個改變呢就是用管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12471.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12497.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
自主管理標章來取代原來需要做一些比較強度的這個管理那這部分當然我們也知道可能在執行上會有一些需要再做調整的地方那各個縣市的執行狀況如果依照今天的報告在第30頁裡面我們看到就是這個標章到今年的4月為止有2000 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12500.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12516.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
138家拿到這個標章而且三分之二呢都是優良或者是至少是可以讓民眾在這個系統裡面是非常安心的去在這個市內去活動那這個部分我們不知道說未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12517.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12533.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
在執行上面如果大家都已經有達到這個標章的這個品質要求的話那在第三階段第三批在公布上有沒有什麼困難或者是在執行上會擔心造成什麼樣的一些影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12534.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12560.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
報告委員因為當時我後來有去跟我同仁了解因為當時要推動擴大的時候其實遭遇到實際上剛剛的第三批列管的他們的這個反應就是說因為第一個要專責人員第二個還要量測要有一些費用定期檢測有一個費用雖然沒有很多幾萬塊但是對於這些場所都是很大的一個負擔所以後來當時就改用這個標章的方式來推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12561.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12582.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
那未來我們其實要怎麼改變呢第一個要簡化標章讓更多人願意來做這個事情那第二個就是說我們希望有一些連續的監測的設備能夠取代這種傳統需要很多錢的一個方式來進行那這個就有機會來擴大我們的一個需求像醫院他自己的這個偵測因為他很多醫院他自己會 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12583.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12602.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
有一些負壓或是它空調的系統就做得相對的比較好可是有很多的幼兒園或是一些弱勢的族群就很像不做不大夠所以我們未來會找一些重點項目先來做那簡化它的流程另外一個是監測的設備看能不能連續的監測比較便宜的方式來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12603.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12625.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
是我了解這個真的都需要費用那在現場如果執行也是一個很重要的地方那我們也了解不過我們看到就是說像以幼兒園為例台大我們這個環境所他們也很擔心職業環境所他們也很擔心說一個人如果通風不良的狀況之下可能就會傳染三個人以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12626.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12644.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
那現在少子化的關係同時很多都是雙性家庭萬一小朋友在幼兒園的這個生活過程裡面因為這些要求不夠嚴謹或者是處理上不夠適當的話那事實上是對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12645.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12668.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
整個家庭造成的照顧上的影響是蠻大的所以我們非常期待剛剛部長所提到一些費用或者是實際上怎麼來處理的部分是不是有更好的方式我們都非常了解空氣品質尤其是室內空氣品質對現在的人的生活真的是非常非常的重要所以我們希望要求一個好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12669.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12697.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
室內空氣的品質是可以非常容易理解的可是我們也知道在這個過程裡面他可能要有更多的投資或者是有更好的方法因為包括櫃部也是需要做節能減碳那我們要求好的空氣品質可能會用到更多的能源或者是有更多一些設備進來所以如何能夠把包括這個空 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12699.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12727.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
氣品質的要求跟節能簡單這邊得到一個好的平衡這個是貴部需要花智慧還有需要花很多精神來處理的部分我們了解科技就是要幫助我們可以過得更有品質過得更好當然需要這個能源的調節可以更適當所以智慧型的調控應該是未來可以持續進展的部分那剛剛趙偉提到的AI有沒有機會也許 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12729.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12745.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
不一定在那麼大的一個範圍之下可以做好調控的話至少我們是不是用更有智慧型的一些方式來幫助我們讓這個空氣的室內品質還有節能減碳中間達到平衡這部分就麻煩部長持續努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12746.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12768.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
好委員這個我們會來努力啦因為我相信如果家裡有小朋友就知道小朋友去上學流感劑的時候都會傳病回來所以這個其實就是一種室內空氣品質不好容易擴大交差感染的一個情況所以這個部分當然這個部分需要多一點的宣導或是溝通或是更好的設備這個我們會來努力好那今天就跟您討論到這邊好謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12776.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12779.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
好 謝謝王委員 謝謝部長接下來請劉淑貧委員來做審討好 有請彭部長請部長劉委員好你好 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12802.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12822.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
我們知道台灣的人均碳排放量其實是蠻高的用人均在2020年的時候是一個人10.7公噸那2022年的時候更高達11.52公噸是比全球的平均要高出兩點多倍嘛這是事實所以彭部長你上台之後其實最重要的行政院的任命就是在說你要再做這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12824.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12828.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
節能減碳在所謂的氣候變遷的減排這邊要幫助很大的角色這是我們所樂見那您在您的報告當中也提到在擴大溫室氣體排放的量的這部分您有提到的是要增加的是在今年的部分要增加的是大概有500家500家的這個關於到貨擠到百貨旅館等等的這個大型的這個大專院校 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12851.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12877.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
那這部分的原則你有提到一個部分是說採取三不五應沒有不會麻煩不用委外不需查驗不要收攤費這個第四個目前是沒有確定的那不會麻煩這個部分可以提到的是我們看到因為以一格來講的話至少需要兩到三個這個專業的人員那當然這個部分可能也涉及到的這第二個議題就在於說不用委外 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12877.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12901.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
就是說二到三個人員就您的這個了解目前在剛剛所說那個500家新增或原來的這個公司或是學校當中具備他沒有委外人員他具備的所謂的淨零碳排的這些知識的有沒有是夠嗎而且尤其是我們知道他必須要碳排的時候有範疇一、範疇二、範疇三這些部分那這些部分甚至有所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12904.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12929.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
這個碳盤查的管理師 你可以回答一下像目前你所了解的這些廠商他們的專業 這是說人員夠嗎包委員 他們不用 因為我們是抓電通常這些廠商用電佔了大概八成的排碳量所以我們會建立一個平台 他們查他們工商憑證進去之後就知道撈下來電 那他按出去就會送到我們這邊我們就可以掌握他八成的碳排量 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12929.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12949.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
所以他不用有一些這個人去授訊或是找委外的碳排查公司來處理不需要好那等於說我了解了您的意思是說他只針對範酬二裡面的間接的是間接的排碳的這部分來講對不對那第一部分的碳的這個部分第一部分的範酬一他就現在目前是不管的是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12949.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12977.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
其實第一個是我們環境部有列管大概500個工廠那個一定要做完這個碳的盤查跟查驗證第二個是他如果是供應鏈的或是他上市櫃公司的這個都有一定的他必須要規範確信的找專業的來輔導那我們現在這個是針對這種中小企業基本上他們也是一個排碳源大概2.5萬噸到1萬噸左右所以其實他們那個不用特別來做處理也不會增加他們的負擔他們只要把電給我們就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12981.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13003.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那我先請問一下你之前的這個高耗電的部分的話是已經占到多少我們全國的排碳量的比例現在新增的這個中小型這部分還有學校我們管制的已經大概54%左右全國的排碳量大概在54%左右所以已經很大了那這個新增的這個500家的話大概會增加10%吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13004.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13028.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
還在算當中因為我們這個量還在算我估計大概是10分因為它是1萬噸到2.5萬噸500個公司左右好那這個部分我現在可以知道你可能是初步是針對讓他們先了解熟悉這個部分那可是第二個問題它不需要查證因為你剛才說直接把電費的這個使用度數把它放上去就好了可是這一部分會不會讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13030.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13039.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
擴大了這些廠家們他們了解他們不知道說這部分事實上是要花經費的花人力的花事實上要學know-how這部分因為剛開始的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13041.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13066.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
制術倒沒有問題但是我說你是不是造成一種他忽略了本身排炭過程需要是全民的甚至廠商甚至排炭的這個廠家他必須要負起這個責任這樣的問題其實第一個是他如果自己很瞭解自己排炭多少他願意去做一些減量的工作這個基本上現在這是一個顯學他們自己就會去做那我們就是提醒他說你的排炭量如果你願意願意用電量越來越少 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13066.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13086.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
自己去做一些改善那我們會想辦法給你一些獎勵或鼓勵那用這樣的方式能夠鼓勵他們減碳其實我們還是針對前面那個大的排版超過2.5萬噸以上的製造業慢慢的希望說有那個road map再根據現在五十幾到十幾的部分我們現在看到你的教育訓練因為你的報告也呈現出來說環境部在2024年所以辦理過12場次的這個服務業的這個輔導的說明會 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13093.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13115.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
這個問卷的400家次當中60%人就表示自己沒有把握自行完成盤查但是現在的部分是看到是這邊就是你用電費可是我覺得其他的範疇一 範疇二 範疇三你們還是必須在過程當中就讓廠商們他知道說他必須有這個概念他才會能夠正確的去引導後續必須在他人力上面要建置這些探盤查師那你們現在對廠商的這個探盤查管理師這邊有沒有一些補助的這種措施呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13119.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13148.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
包委員我們是針對前面那個54個大的製造業跟電力業的排炭員要那個2.5到1萬的是不需要因為其實基本上第一個他不是我們所列管的第二個他也不是上市櫃不見得是上市櫃公司如果他是上市櫃公司又是所謂的供應鏈那他自己就會有那他自己就會去培訓所以目前其實我們也有提供一些基本的綠領人才他可以去上這些課所以基本上他們是不需要做到範疇一二三的 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13148.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13173.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
好 但是未來慢慢都會需要啦對不對他如果他要走入國際的供應鏈如果他要賣東西給台積電他是屬於好的公司往前走這個我相信全世界都是一樣就是慢慢變成標配好 那我們現在還最後一個問題就是請主席記一下就是預計的這個碳盤查的一些指引在六月底前公佈嘛對不對然後呢 但是現在已經四月底好像還沒有看到他會不會影響到你們現在實施進展是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13175.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13200.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
我們現在已經有針對所有就是工廠製造業的碳盤廠指引那我們現在正在訂的就是針對像醫療像這個服務業然後大專院校我們會再訂還有訂符合他們能夠簡單操作就剛剛部長提到的這個指引那我們大概這個內容已經都差不多我們接下來就是跟大家來做一個諮商那我們會如期在6月上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13200.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13206.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
好就希望在兩個月之內就已經出現這個指引好這樣子謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝劉書斌委員的發言謝謝部長我們下一位請盧憲義委員發言主席請部長好請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13226.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13246.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
路委員好部長謝謝你的當高生日快樂最主要是我想延續上個禮拜針對衛福部他們社會福利的一個所謂的來源的一個說明我提到碳稅這個部分其實跟部長報告說我想問一個問題說你知道碳稅最早收的國家是哪一個國家嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13249.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13263.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
最早的國家我是知道70多個國家都有探定價啦有的是雙邊最早的是1990的芬蘭1990的挪威瑞典對 挪威就是北歐嘛所以我就主要是要講說其實我們已經落後35年了結果我們還在討論定價的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13266.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13283.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那其實所以很多專業的問題跟以後要付出的部分其實大家都要及時管理要共同來努力那我最主要是要講說瑞瑟我上次說了他們大概三分之二的溫室氣體的一個管理基金因為賺了非常多的錢他用作我們他們的健康保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13285.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13306.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
那愛爾蘭呢 直接訂大概6塊錢每公頓的那個歐元也就是222塊台幣左右呢是用作救濟弱勢家庭跟勞工那為什麼要提出這個是希望說以後在跨部會討論的時候 你要有這方面的思維其實有很多以後的收入是要用來做社會救濟跟社會福利的先附帶這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13308.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13319.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
第二個就是說看了你這個60節的報告當然我很用心讀大概有一些我比較有興趣的地方問一下大概公測的部分我看你說因為本來目標是4000後來是達到4290 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13322.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13343.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
那這個是我比較想知道是是做的比較好說的地區嗎還是說只針對比如說北部或者說交通便利的地方有沒有偏遠的地方或者說我們花東區域或者是屏東高雄比較偏遠地區你有沒有實際的報告可以給我們參考說你確實有在對公車部分有做了這些努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13344.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13361.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
包委員其實我們現在是鼓勵新的好的公廁啦所以任何地方有願意想要來挑戰更好的我們都會鼓勵來跟我們申請那我要提醒就是說其實我們原住民常常有一些祭典那我們現在也有睡食祭一覺其實我們只要去參加一個祭典其實我最擔心的就是上廁所的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13362.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13382.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
比如說我今天要去桃園去的LARUA組的一個聖貝祭那到了那個地方的時候你看到共策其實都是所謂的流動廁所你到了阿里山要參加聖貝祭也是那個戰祭還有我們南莊五峰的矮林祭甚至是到我們排灣組的五年祭其實人山人海 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13383.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13408.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
然後其實我們為了要解決廁所我都會先去之前要先到7-11或什麼可是如果真的像很多老人家小朋友其實在那麼多人的場地的時候其實上廁所是最大的問題所以我希望環境部能夠盤點一下這些舉辦傳統祭典的地方是不是應該設置公共廁所而且是主動的要去盤查設置的地點 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13408.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13430.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
好委員這個點子非常好建議非常好那如果委員可以再提供給我們一些點的話我們會積極來考慮然後來主動來協助好就針對我看到的一些你的一些人才培訓的計畫我給予高度的肯定然後那我希望他的類別不要太專就是單純的不要應該要所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13431.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13448.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
複雜化多元化像列寧3500人我們青年環境永續圓夢計畫是61人然後你的歐盟執委會有七個那我想說他跟公費留學考試去取得學位的這個部分有沒有重疊不一樣是 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13449.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13470.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
這個不影響到公費留學 這個是鼓勵年輕朋友去圓夢留學是留學 這個是公費那我知道我的意思是說如果說我們要解決我們台灣複雜的環境問題是不是就從這個計畫裡面比如說你的青年環境永續圓夢計畫或者是這個歐盟的這個部分是不是應該去派錢去專業的人去那邊學習如何處理複雜的環境問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13472.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13492.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
因為那個是屬於教育部特別是請我們環境部來規劃所以當然我們是希望說未來去那個地方考察的經過我們的渠道去的也可以變成我們所用啦所以這個委員提的這個建議非常的好那我們當然是希望說用有過國外的視野之後回來可以幫忙解決台灣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13493.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13507.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那我希望說這所謂的青年環境永續圓夢計畫這61個人他的那個計畫應該是多元的不是只有單方面只是針對某個項目的一個環境的議題好嗎那進入到我上個禮拜我去 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13508.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13523.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
藏濱工業區辦一個所謂的中部環保業的一個座談謝謝我們次長跟我們的署長都有參與那也謝謝我們本會有王征旭委員 黃學芳委員還有我們賴一貞委員跟我一起去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13524.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13550.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
那有提供一個四個建議我希望直接面報給我們部長因為部長你可能太忙沒有空那我們這邊再看一下針對那個刪除玻璃纖維紋製這個部分就是這個辦法大概即將滿一年然後他們在這一年裡面所遇到很大的問題就是這個字眼拿掉了讓他們造成他們的工作上的困擾部長你知道嗎知道OK |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13551.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13574.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
下午會來討論這個那第二個就是所謂的再生力量管理辦法也就是CLSM那他說因為有些弊案會發生比如說道路崩塌或什麼的那是不是應該訂一個更嚴格的管理辦法這個部分有在研議嗎這個是黃官署嗎是來 請幫忙說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13575.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13591.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
包委員,那個洩漏水利料的用途跟用的地方有規範都有一定的規範它應該是不能用在那種結構的地方就是用在馬路上嗎馬路覆面可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13593.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13613.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
OK那反正就是要讓業者知道說其實你們有一個管理辦法讓他們去做的時候有更好的一個參考指標好不好第三個就是廢棄物清除業就是因為現在處理業跟回收業他有開放外勞可是清除業就沒有就是很奇怪3K產業部長你知道3K產業是什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13618.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13644.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
這是我看環境部的那個公告3K產業我說結果我還不知道K是什麼危險 辛苦 骯髒結果K不是英文是日文嘛那既然是這樣我為什麼讀漏清除業在沒有把外勞幫進來一起來幫忙這件事情那因為之前是因為那個駕駛有駕駛關係所以那個勞動部他會有點疑慮啦我們現在也在爭取爭取要把它列進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13645.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13669.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
對 因為最主要是說司機還要去幫忙做一些清楚的工作或者是說去這個那麼髒的環境底下都已經那麼難找司機結果你還是限制他的一個運用所以這個部分一定要強烈的要求把外勞引進來讓他來幫忙這件事情 可以嗎好 可以最後一項就是所謂的我們現在的我們焚化廠的設備逐年老舊劣化這個部分我們環境部有沒有什麼規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13673.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13680.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
報告委員我們有規劃逐年來做更新跟效能的提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13681.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13709.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
那我這邊因為時間的關係我就要求環境部環管署就如何輔導事業單位去協助業者推動設置事業廢棄物處理設施然後循環署與環管署分別就資源循環推動法草案的制定及現行廢棄物清理法的修正相關草案的討論與法治化好不好好可以沒問題我們近期就會提出來討論跟研議的一些內容麻煩智慧本席謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13712.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13726.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
好謝謝盧憲憶委員的發言也謝謝部長的答詢祝我們這個盧憲憶委員生日快樂好我們下一位麻煩鄭天才委員發言請 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13745.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13767.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
主席 各位委員 有請部長有請彭部長這位好部長好今天環境部的業務報告列了三四幾項的業務報告部長有沒有發現有漏掉什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13770.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13791.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
好 沒有噪音的啦噪音喔沒有噪音的也許大家認為噪音都沒有問題噪音管制法第四條規定中央主管機關主管的事項列了15項當然很重要的台灣其實不大台澎金馬不大 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13793.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13821.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
需要全國性來去統一去解決的應該去處理我已經直過很多次了但是還是要繼續質詢噪音管制法第15條第一項民用機場民用塔台所轄軍民合用機場所產生的航空噪音及其他交通產生的噪音地方政府來去監測然後相關的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13823.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13848.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
由地方政府來去通知改善或相關的補助也要去做一個訂定這是第一項第二項軍用塔台所轄軍民合用機場之航空噪音其軍用航空主管機關當然就國防部應會商民用航空營運或管理機關地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13850.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13878.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
對於各級航空噪音防治 其次航空噪音影響程度訂定航空噪音改善計劃就讓航空主管機關 警民用航空主管機關採取適當的防治或補償措施事實上防治都很困難其實因為防治真的很困難噪音嘛飛機要飛嘛無論是民航的或是這個尤其是 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13880.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13903.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
空軍的這些飛機所以人民要的是補償因為很難防治是要補償但是這個民用的跟軍用的或是軍民合用的補償也都不一樣所以這個部分好 遭殞管制法第17條這個原來的110年1月20號以前的 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13910.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13928.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
它只有防治措施 這是非常奇怪的沒有補償 我剛念的第15條都有補償教育管制法第10條 軍用航空的就是沒有補償所以後來我提案 提了修正條 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13930.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13956.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
這個在114年1月20號通過了這個增加第二項相關的補償第一項也增加了補償措施了第二項增加了第二項由國防部訂定這個補償的這個辦法過了一年這是114年1月20號公布施行修正公布 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13958.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13980.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
過了一年國防部才訂出補償的這個辦法然後很莫名其妙的看我們看這個第一項軍機場噪音防制補償經費分配使用辦法第12條的第一項軍機場管理單位以本辦法施行後下一個輪次 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13981.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14008.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
採噪音補償措施者已完成第一輪次補助住戶設置噪音防治設施者為限這個辦法他已經拖了一年才定出來結果定出來的是什麼呢部長可能不知道這個下一個輪次是什麼意思下一個輪次是什麼意思我來說明我們就以這個自航機場 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14010.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14038.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
自航機場 富岡部落然後嘉陸蘭部落 自航機場的上方還有個十三部落 自航機場的右方特別跟部長講 這三個部落現在是分成三個部落 以前是一個部落就在自航機場裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14041.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14067.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
就在自航機場裡面這個自航機場裡面因為要開闢自航機場把我們的一個傳統的部落分成三個部落是這樣所以我們是噪音最嚴重的但是還下一個輪次為什麼叫下一個輪次呢好因為自航機場啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14069.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14096.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
離志航機場很遠的這些里啊都要輪流啊它要分級 一級 二級 三級要輪流啊 這麼多啊 要輪啊我這邊特別寫了民國89年補助要下一個輪次 要超過20年啊是這樣的一個下一個輪次所以在這樣的一個情形之下 這個法規啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14099.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14127.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
所以雖然已經111年1月1號施行了這個辦法補償辦法但是因為還要下一個輪次不曉得輪到什麼時候所以還沒有現在還沒有我之所以要再提這個就是作為噪音管制法的中央主管機關你們要去協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14129.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14133.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
國防部民航局還有地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14134.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14161.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
其實應該啊就是要修第15條還有第17條這些條文要去做修正當然你要去做修正第一個你們也利用這個機會我也想要知道這個資料你們先了解所有的民航單純民航機場的補償的規定是怎麼樣多久補償一次補償多少錢這第一個第二個軍用 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14163.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14181.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
合用的,的補償是如何,多久補償,然後補償多少單獨均用的,是補償的規定是如何就是這個嘛,就是還沒有補償啦包括其他的在西部的,還有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14183.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14204.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
單獨軍用的所以這個部分是不是這個提書面資料給我可以嗎沒問題我們來瞭解一下也要研議怎麼樣去修會更好能夠一致好不好而且是軍用的當然是噪音更嚴重啊對不對好不好好我們來研究一下謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14206.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14212.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
好 謝謝鄭天才委員的發言 謝謝部長的答詢我們下一位請房秀安委員發言謝謝主席 我們請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14226.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14253.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
黃委員好 部長好 部長我今天想要請部長就是針對我們這個這個固定污染源跟移動污染源這個部分那我等一下會請部長這邊做一個回答那我們知道就是說全臺灣所有的這個機車族從北到南幾乎很多都自己騎摩托車那在前幾年大家就一直因為有政府補助那個電動電動機車 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14255.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14282.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
所以大家一直認為就是說如果這個移動污染源是比固定污染源還嚴重的話那如果透過這樣子電動機車或電動汽車這樣子一個推廣那是不是可以讓我們的空氣品質能夠更好那可是我看到就是說我們的這個電動機車在疫情之後就是市占率就一直下滑那我也看到就是說我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14285.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14305.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
2023年我們全國的電動機車掛牌就是差不多八萬兩千輛那2024差不多七萬八千輛那到2025第一季剩下七千多輛那這個大減六成到今年那我想請教就是說部長這個最主要的原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14306.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14320.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
第一個是補助的確是變少那目前我們有一個環評的增量抵換專案也有在補助那那個地方也有在加碼那另外一個是其實Gogoro因為這幾年相對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14322.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14340.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
他在整個推動營運策略或是使用者的使用的習慣裡面很像沒有好到那樣的一個水準加上他公司的營運也出現一些問題我們有觀察到其實也有很多人覺得這個騎這個電動車包含他電池的這個能效都沒有特別的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14340.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14367.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
那當然啦也有其他這個光陽其實也很努力在爭取但是整個大家的使用習慣裡面應該從遊車換成電動車但是沒有大幅度的去移動轉換到那個地方的確是有這樣的一個現象發生好那最主要的原因是什麼你有去討論或者是跟你們這個各單位稍微討論一下嗎因為其實一方面就是說交換站那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14368.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14388.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
不方便這個也是一個原因另外就是說電動機車其實也蠻貴的那這個交換站不容易然後再來就是月租那個電池的那個月租其實對一般的民眾來講我如果是每天只是單純 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14390.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14416.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
我每個月還要付幾百塊其實他會覺得那我就買那個那個油車比較便宜嘛所以我不知道說部長您有沒有針對這部分就是說未來要怎麼去推動這個電動電動機車要怎麼去推動要不然我覺得說如果我們一直覺得說這個移動污染源比固定污染源還嚴重的話那如果這個電動機車或電動汽車一直 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14420.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14447.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
變成說台灣的這種成效不是那麼好的話那你要怎麼讓這個移動污染源減少這個部分其實因為謝姐我的建議我們會再來去思考一下因為這個是交通部他們的這個方案那我們過去在空污減量裡面的確我們的大氣師的空污基金也丟了很多錢下去也改善了非常的多但是事實上還是要回到市場機制能夠順利的來運行 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14448.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14466.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
那很可惜的就是近期這個Gogoro他在出了一些事情之後似乎我們市場上一堆民眾有一些信心上的一個疑慮所以造成他的這個一直都沒有辦法往上走甚至他有一些經營的壓力存在這個我們都有觀察到那我們現在其實內部也在討論說 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14467.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14495.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
第一個它的確有一些問題要去解決因為我們過去補助了它非常的多它其實有一部分都是我們空污基金還有我們增量抵換專案我們給他們很大的一個協助那甚至未來的光陽它的一個發展甚至還有其實YAMAHA也有所以其實這個產業應該是有一個跨級到經濟部還有我們交通部還有我們三個部會謝謝委員的建議我再來找他們再來討論一下這個要怎麼去解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14496.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14511.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
部長因為我們的這個補助原本我們就是老舊車輛太舊換新這個補助是延長到2026年12月那如果萬一好了明年你們開始就不補助了 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14513.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14517.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
這個我覺得如果不補助那換成電動機車的這種狀況不是更慘嗎的確是有可能會這個樣子所以我覺得應該也要再去思考一下怎麼去讓這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14528.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14550.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
一方面要讓我們的空污這個移動污染源的空污能夠減少那如果說民眾到最後他還是買油車的話那當然我覺得這個移動污染源他還是會繼續存在嘛對對對所以這個我們再來討論因為目前就是環評的增量抵換專案這個部分是有的確是有一些補助也鼓勵大家去做這個更換啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14551.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14567.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
但是這個也有一個期限所以也謝謝委員的建議我們再給我們一點點時間再找跨兩個部門再討論好那之前部長也有特別提到就是那個中小學校這個中小學的校區周邊空品的這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14569.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14583.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
那其實很多就是上下學的時候家長可能就載小朋友那有的是代數上下學然後車輛可能就代數摩托車是代數那這樣子的話可能也造成學校周邊的這個空氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14585.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14611.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
空氣不好 空氣品質不好那之前也特別提到就是說我們高中子以下的學校沒有針對這一個那個空氣品質管制有做一個規範所以我不知道說部長因為之前也有特別提到這一個部分那也有討論這一個問題那我不知道說部長針對這一個的話我們目前有沒有什麼樣的進展 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14612.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14630.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
包委員因為之前我們有提到一個空品維護區今天媒體有報導說只有10個的確是因為那個是地方環保單位一起要來推動現有的人力其實他們我們也是希望他們能夠擴大那目前我們現在做法第一個是有很多的學校是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14630.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14658.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
都會地區特別交通繁忙的地區這個是我們會列為一個優先關注的一個校園的方案那我們會優先進行改善然後另外一個是工業區的旁邊這個是我們所要的一個重點那其他的部分呢就未來其實還是要從這個整個社會的改變例如說我們要把這個家長會結合在一起因為這個是家長的習慣家長要很方便的送到門口然後再要下其實那個一起一動或代數之間就造成空污啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14659.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14678.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
所以這個其實我們是需要更好的一個教育那我們也跟大氣師會來討論來怎麼樣完整來進行這些事情這個的確是需要一點點時間需要一點點更好的一個策略不然的話我也害怕說變成是一個口號的一個行動而已那部長之前也有特別提到就是說如果國內就是像韓國如果說他們空氣品質不好的話那可能就會發出那個細胞簡訊那你們有曾經這樣想過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14688.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14706.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
我們有但是其實細胞簡訊一定要很強烈的說空污到某一個層級那台灣應該是沒有發生過沒有發過我們現在其實是已經在我們的APP裡面你可以設定好嚴重的話我們會自動發給你APP一定要訂閱才可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14707.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14732.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
好 其實我今天也是要麻煩部長因為所有的 不論是水 空氣其實這個是我們每天就一定是這樣子一定接觸到然後這個是對人體會有很大的影響所以當然就是說部長上來之後你有很多事情要做那我們也希望就是說真的要有真的要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14733.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14749.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
一步一步去實踐就是說真的要去把它做然後真的要有改善另外就是說我們環境部要成立一個空氣品質監測跟預報中心那預計就是說上半年能夠掛牌那目前的進度是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14749.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14770.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
目前正在進行當中目前這個人力的移波已經由原來的建置師移到這個大氣師他們正在運作那我們也在爭取希望多一些經費能夠讓他的運作能夠跟以前不一樣所以現在正在進行當中那預計是五月份會正來進行所以真的五月就可以掛牌對 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14772.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14783.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
因為第一個是組織的調整其實我們現在正在抱怨跨部會的要抱怨讓我們組織可以改名字把科移過去所以已經在實際上業務正在進行當中了 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14787.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14793.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那我們當然也希望就是說有這樣的一個這個空氣品質監測跟預報中心如果成立之後其實算是一個空氣品質監測預報防治一體啦所以應該會更好吧我期待應該是會更好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14806.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14834.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
就是要更及時的去修處理我們希望是這樣制度的改變會更好所以我們在這邊期待就是說部長是一個願意做事情的人那當然就是說這個我剛剛講的空氣水這個是每天真的我們都會碰到那如果說今天空氣品質不好的話其實你呼吸起來你也會覺得像我如果遇到那個有時候遇到那個鞭炮放鞭炮 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14835.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14855.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
最近那個三月麻糬聲或者是遶境然後那個有時候鞭炮這樣一放真的你會嚇死然後你都會覺得那個空氣你都快吸不到空氣了所以我是覺得說部長真的你上來之後你是一個願意做事情的人那當然我們是從學校周邊這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14856.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14876.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
開始做起讓孩子們每天上學的這個這個環境能夠更好我覺得這也是我們做家長或者是我們的政府應該做的事情啦好不好可以謝謝委員好謝謝好謝謝黃西方委員發言謝謝部長的答詢現在我們請楊耀委員好請楊耀委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14889.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14896.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
好 謝謝主席 主席請一下彭部長好 請彭部長姚委員好部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14897.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14924.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
部長我接著黃秀芳委員的話來提問我也覺得你是一個肯做事的人謝謝委員電動車很遺憾我在這邊大概也已經講10年了就是政府補助的金額其實這麼多年來算不少投注的心力很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14925.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14951.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
我覺得電動機車最必須要解決的就是我大概很早以前我記得搞不好是從第八屆我就講了就是假如沒有辦法各家廠商的電池統一然後推電池交換站讓使用者覺得方便使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14952.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14962.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
再多的補貼都沒有用你只補貼他去買車可是呢我記得是 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14964.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14990.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
國內現在幾家廠商的電池規格也沒有辦法統一我對這件事情對於行政部門大力補貼然後連去協調當然這個不在你的任內就連去統合幾家廠商讓大家的電池規格一致可以統一交換做一個交換平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14991.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15014.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
都沒有辦法達成,其實我一直是很有意見的部長是不是你們跟經濟部也好,跟交通部也好看怎麼在電池交換站的平台可以形成之前我覺得買車的人都會後悔 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15018.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15043.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
部長你有沒有什麼想法其實包委員因為現在這個市場跟10年前不大一樣就是說這兩家例如說現在G公司跟K公司其實兩個電池的交換體系是完全不一樣的所以要統合我認為是不可能的事而且兩邊都有一些經營上的這個壓力經營上的這個壓力所以現在的局勢還在變化當中我同意委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15044.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15068.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
那他們假如不做統合那政府一直拿錢出來做補助做購買的補助這個其實你們可以去問一問就是曾經買過電動車的使用者這個最準你就是問他他買了以後現在不是民眾沒有減碳的觀念 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15070.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15099.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
是減碳的觀念必須要建立在他生活方便的基礎上去推動生活造成不便這個你要求民眾來響應政府的減鹽減碳這個很困難好不好不過我還是希望你們去做一定的努力啦要不然真的是很多人是買一輛就後悔一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15101.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15102.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
因為實在是太不方便了 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15106.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15132.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
不然我們為了要落實2050的淨零轉型所以綠領人才扮演了很關鍵的角色那去年環境部跟104人力銀行有合作完成了綠領人才的就業趨勢報告2024年大概有將近3600家的企業徵才開出綠領人才需求8年來成長了329% |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15136.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15159.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
那2026年開始我們要開增碳費環境部目前推估大概只有7%的真材企業開出力領的工作需求未來五年內會有一到三倍的成長空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15162.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15178.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
請問一下就是環境部這邊在2025年就今年有成立公司協力進行歷領培育聯盟是由環境部跟大交驗校分北中南東 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15180.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15195.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
要來做淨零人力的培育中心每年培育大概3500人次可是呢就剛才那個趨勢報告指出啊利零人才的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15196.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15215.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
每個月是2.2萬個工作機會那我們這樣子的培育速度會不會太慢報告委員他是現在在104上面他真的工作有2.2萬人不是每個月就有2.2萬人他有可能一直掛在上面一直在找到他要的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15215.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15242.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
所以目前我們預估但是這個的需求還是很高這個僅次於AI而且他成長幅度是最快的所以我們看到這個趨勢是希望來培育而且未來呢我們這個上過我們課的育齡人才他在104你個人的這個履歷裡面他也會把他標註在上去所以基本上呢我們是我們不需要很快的把這個2.2萬人填補上去啦因為我們未來還有一系列的規劃包含增能的課程等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15243.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15271.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
對 所以因為綠營人才的需求已經出現了所以我們培育的速度想來也不能太慢也因為綠營人才的需求大增所以有很多坊間有很多補習班有很多相關的就譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15274.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15280.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
ESG的認證啦永續管理師啊等等這個這個可是呢他補習班 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15282.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15302.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
培育出來的不一定可以取得國內外的認證那這個可能請環境部這邊就相關的我想這個可能也不是你環境部主管就過去來說的話他是屬於真人的課程就像補習班這樣這個我們管不到進入企業以後追蹤的部分應該算你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15308.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15336.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
我們會來主動的來希望追蹤我們培訓的人因為我們當然希望很多人可以投入相關綠領的領域可是還是必須要做把關補教的部分不歸環境部這個我知道可是他進入企業以後的追蹤環境部這邊還是必須要務必要把關好了沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15338.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15362.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
因為時間的關係我必須要直接跳著問一個澎湖的問題因為澎湖的垃圾長期都是轉運到本島來做焚化所以有一些鄉親很希望可以在澎湖做終極的處理焚化就是一個選項 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15364.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15374.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
我想要請教一下部長就是請部長詳細的回答有關全國政策的規劃協助跟督導這個當然是環境部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15376.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15396.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
那其他的一般執行是不是屬於地方政府,或者是署長直接回答也可以?是,報告委員,有關地方政府是它清運處理都是屬於地方政府的清運處理都是屬於地方政府?是 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15396.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15419.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
那所以清運的部分現在是我們部裡面有補貼給有補助給地方政府嘛對不對但是責任是他要他執行我們給補助像澎湖就是轉運的轉運是我們補助那假如說澎湖要興建葵仔爐我們環境部可以補助經費嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15423.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15437.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
因為那個地方的住址處理設施原則上還是有地方來做處理啦那我們可以有一些事前的規劃或者是評估的部分我們可以補助所以焚化爐就是不能補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15440.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15464.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
原則上是如果他可以自己運作的話不補助因為現在有所謂的促參嘛引進民間的資源來就是假如說是縣府自己要蓋焚化爐建設的部分我們布裡面是不補助的對跟以前不一樣以前都是現在很多都是環保署在補助的現在是倒過來這個是屬於地方事務在處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15466.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15471.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
地方事務處理好那因為很多鄉親 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15474.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15495.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
就是現在公民參與越來越踴躍所以很多人會表達意見所以我必須要很明確的在這個質詢台讓部長跟署長明確的回答就是有關焚化爐興建的部分部裡面這邊是不會補助的好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15498.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15507.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
謝謝楊雅委員的發言 謝謝部長的答詢下一位我們請蔡議員蔡議員不在我們下一位請陳妍委員發言謝謝主席 麻煩先請部長好 請彭部長陳委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15522.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15549.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
部長好在這個台中四月初有發生了這個東城風力發電的爭議那部長相當了解這件事情本席也多次公開的表示反對這種沒有民意的開發案那環境部呢跟這個風力的這個目的事業主管機關經濟部呢也都非常明確的表達不支持這個計劃案那沒有民意的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15550.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15565.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
支持那地方政府也是反對所以再加上這個開發案的規劃幾乎都是要用公有土地來開發那這個根本就是一個不可能的開發案但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15566.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15583.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
有心人士都一直在不斷的顛倒是非把這樣如此荒唐的開發案在網路上放風向誤導成政府開發這根本就是一個赤裸裸的造謠那我想在這裡請部長再一次鄭重說明一下這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15584.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15598.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
好 包委員他其實這個是開發公司他想要開發然後就送到環境部的官網說他想要開發這個是做一個意見徵詢他的報告書都沒有送進來那所以他基本上是在前置的一個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15599.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15617.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
那因為我們環境部的過去在審查的經驗像這樣的這個所謂的陸域風機都是非常嚴格非常小心的在檢視那而且呢它又是在美麗的台東所以我當然我必須說我們是裁判不可能是往前走的但是我是覺得要對台中鄉親有一個更負責任的交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15617.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15631.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
我也公開說了這個是不被鼓勵的而且我們自己也不會去支持所以也謝謝委員讓我有這個機會所以這個案子如果他真的要開發要送進來我們一定會嚴格的來審查甚至跟這個地方也會尊重地方的一個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15632.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15648.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
是 謝謝部長那這個開發案的爭議它是發生在4月初在地的這個自救會為了要匯集民意的支持所以有開始連署這樣的一個動作那這個連署書我們看一下等一下 前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15651.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15670.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
聯署書只要填上姓名還有居住的縣市就可以部長應該有看過這個聯署吧有這個反對東城風力發電的聯署是展現地方民意的一個方式我們都認同而且也是支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15670.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15694.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
但是呢有不肖人士竟然是把這樣子名義的連署書呢跟這個罷免我的這個連署書做了一個連結那這一張呢這個是我在這個社群平台上面所這個擷取的資訊有某位立委的團隊在桃園邀請了原住民連署反對東城風力發電可是最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15695.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15712.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
拿給這個族人他去簽名的卻是罷免成癮的連署書當下還說罷免成癮風力發電就不會蓋了這樣子的話術根本就是在欺騙我們原住民也非常看不起我們原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15713.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15737.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
這樣的行為已經違反了選罷法第98條的第一項第二款運用非法方式取得連署這樣子的栽贓嫁禍你不能自己說賣完牛肉之後又掛羊頭賣狗肉這樣子的欺騙連署的行為真的是非常非常的可恥也是非常非常簡直就是一個小人的行為我在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15738.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15763.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
也要禁告這位委員你們團隊還跑去文件站去騙老人家連署那我想這些其實這些證據我們都已經彙整好了也會採取法律行動那我覺得真的這個身為立法委員我們應該要保護人民千萬不要害自己的團隊還有支持者這是非常危險的 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15765.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15768.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
好那我接下來呢另外要請這個環管署署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15772.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15798.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
報告委員因為我們最近也在處理有一些團體用抖音不斷的造謠例如說破壞環境的事情像這個其實也類似我們最近遇到的事情我們會併案直接去檢舉抖音或是一些特定的集團故意在造謠我們政府所以我們最近在處理這個當中所以這個是非常惡劣的造謠我想應該要把這個正確的資訊我們傳遞給民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15800.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15808.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
是是是好謝謝那這個我今天拜讀了這個環境部的報告想要針對第14項計畫加強裸露垃圾處理來跟兩位請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15812.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15816.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
首先這個全國裸露垃圾掩埋場的佔滯量已經從112年的84萬公噸下降到113年的75萬公噸那其中彰化縣自113年的7月起就非常積極的在推動垃圾強制分類破帶檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15831.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15849.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
截至這個該年的該年底全線垃圾量已經成功減少了2.3萬公噸這個減幅將近到兩成減量的這個績效是非常卓越的那環境部也因此呼籲了各縣市應該要跟進要響應 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15853.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15881.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
本席的第一個問題就是說看起來垃圾強制分類破帶的檢查它是一項非常有價值的做法那環管署呢為什麼沒有積極補助或者規劃相關的計畫那讓各縣市來好好學習就是說難道是說這個彰化縣辦理這麼好的計畫都不用花錢就可以減少兩成的掩埋垃圾還是說你們只要呼籲就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15883.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15898.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
向委員報告其實全國各地就兩個縣市做得真的很好一個是金門一個是彰化他們都很強力在做迫待及隨車的檢查那這部分其實在我們的擴大的部務匯報裡面各 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15900.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15916.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
環保局局長到的時候我們都有做專案報告期待各環保局回去之後要求各清潔隊做以上的動作那這一個部分這個各縣市應該朝委員剛才建議的方向去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15917.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15934.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
好本席剛剛的建議雖然沒有講很具體但是我也是用反問的方式因為你剛剛署長又再次的提到因為我講呼籲那你剛剛講的是期待所以我只是說因為要做推動這麼好的計劃他是需要燒錢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15935.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15956.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
如果有實質上的這個補助跟協助我想搞不好減少的會不止兩成而且這兩個縣市我想金門的財政應該是比較好因為他們有金酒那我們台東有什麼我們有好空氣但我們其他什麼都沒有還有一堆還沒有處理好的活化的垃圾所以我只是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15957.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15979.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
提醒就是說這麼好的這個計畫那你們只能這樣呼籲嗎你有沒有更具體的作為那如果你剛剛講期待看起來你還沒有很積極的這個作為的時候那你就好好思考本席在這邊給你反問看能不能讓你舉一反三可以讓你有比較正面的一些激勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15980.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15997.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
你好好想一想那這些未強制分類的這個破帶的垃圾那新聞報導是被退運也就是不能被裸露掩埋可是呢垃圾還是存在的那這些呢就是說仍然存在的垃圾何去何從 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15999.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16014.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
就是說要退去哪裡難道是要退去你那邊嗎要退去署長家嗎還是說到底要退給誰我們不知道啊所以這樣子的裸露垃圾的減量它的意義到底在哪裡署長要不要說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16014.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16034.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
是 跟委員報告 其實委員剛才關心的我們在全國的縣市跟清潔隊的考核裡面對於垃圾的減量這部分是有佔很大的分數那另外這個退運的部分其實就是要求清潔隊員要仔細檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16036.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16052.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
那如果裡面有資源垃圾的話就退回清潔隊重新再把資源物拿出來之後才能再進到焚化廠裡面那就是這種作為像今天跟昨天也有例如雲林縣的湖尾也有退運的狀況這清潔隊就會這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16056.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16078.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
所以目前主要都是清潔隊員在很辛苦的處理這些被退運的垃圾是的 所以我們呼籲民眾一定要做好這個垃圾分類跟清潔隊員一起檢查反正如果有些民眾覺得說 啊 反正你退運也是退給清潔隊員啊 沒我的事啊啊 你就比較辛苦就好啊清潔隊員在丟垃圾的時候那起碼你是也該給清潔隊員 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16079.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16079.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16095.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16114.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
再來就是說其次垃圾佔滯量的變化應該要有流量的概念而不是現存量的概念也就是說你們應該告訴民眾各縣市當年度增加了多少掩埋垃圾然後處理了多少的掩埋垃圾所以累積了多少垃圾掩埋的垃圾 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16115.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16132.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
那這樣子你們提供給民眾監督的這個平台才能夠真正感受到各縣市的政府的用心嘛那以及這個野脈垃圾真正減少的量嘛因為你們現在是把全國的這個量全部都加總起來113年減少了9萬噸你看這個圖表我其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16137.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16162.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
是看不出來就是說因為可能有的縣市增加了有的就突然減少很多那個平均值我就看不出各縣市的這個狀況嘛那而且按照就是說你這樣子的這個圖表你們的理想上的這個計劃那是不是我這樣問好了114年今年你預估會減少多少量 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16165.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16191.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
報告委員第一個就是說有流量的概念這個委員真的是講到一個重點所以我們在我們的這個平台裡面對外有網站公告所有的掩埋場的一個增減量都有那個是對外來公開的那114年應該會大量減少因為114年的下半年度也就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16192.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16201.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
那個我們經費下去之後他們花包目前都在作業中那下半年度就真的工程就進行多少啊原則上我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16202.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16228.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
那個比例可能要查一下大概會有40%減少40%你去年是減少9萬噸嘛然後你接下來就減少40%嘛百分之40百分之40減少三十幾萬那所以你這樣這樣速度很快喔因為現在剩下75嘛那才會增加多少我們不知道所以你預估大概多少年會減光光 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16230.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16246.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
我們講的是裸露垃圾會在民國115年的年底把所有裸露垃圾通通完成這個好那我們也是很快啦那我們就到時候來檢視一下你的成績那希望那個時候你也都還在 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16247.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16265.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
好 那我們用這個接下來就是說你們用這個AI監測還有複圖打包加強這個早期的處理這個都非常好但是我Google了這個掩埋場的火災的新聞從113年12月以來部長知道有多少縣市的掩埋場發生火災嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16271.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16295.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
我剛剛有聽到部長講的一個數字你剛剛說的七十幾次那個是新竹而已新竹這五年來發生了七十幾次那其他縣市澎湖、桃園、新竹、台南、屏東都有發生大火而且這些縣市都不止一次那這樣子因為大火燒掉了垃圾搞不好前面就 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16296.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16312.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
前面的這個垃圾分類的破帶檢查的好幾倍這樣燒所以加強裸露垃圾的處理讓這個火災火災多燒幾次看起來就好像減少很多但是這樣你們環關署你們的難道這個是你們紅外線熱潛儀的績效嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16316.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16325.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
當然不是 包委員 應該是這樣我們發現確實常常有火災的現象所以在民國113年我們投入了大概1.1億 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16328.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16356.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
112年也同樣投入大概也是1.1億去做這個防災的動作那我們現在在這個114年以後這個會大量減少這個火災的狀況那第二個就即使它有火災也會很快的把它撲滅以往會燒比較久那現在因為有熱顯像儀它只要有熱那我們就會趕快去做處理這大概是做這樣的處理上 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16358.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16372.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
因為你說這兩年都投注了1億多嘛那你應該比較具體的告訴大家就是你投注之後這兩年跟前面的比較數據減少了多少你現在有這樣的統計嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16375.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16402.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
還是還要再等多久我們才會看到效果報告委員那個我們有統計不過這數據容我查一下好我容你查一下會後跟我講一下我們時間也不夠了那再來就是說這個環境敏感地區的這個場子優先處理請問是什麼樣的你的什麼是所謂敏感地區是怎麼樣然後現在有多少個場子你們優先處理了什麼是 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16404.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16431.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
那我們的台東算不算敏感地區台東有兩個敏感地區台東分別是在大武跟東河是自來水保護區那全國有七個敏感地區我們會優先處理好 那我再提醒你一下敏感地區我們比較容易了解當然就是自然 生態 地質但是同時也包括了人文 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16433.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16452.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
那我必須要提醒我們台東的人文特別原住民的這些不管是這個部落也好文化也好我想這個你也應該要好好列入好這個敏感地區的這個其中的一項很重要的因素去討論去看待好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16454.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16480.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
那這裡面你們也提到就是說野脈量的比較少的規劃集中到其他野脈廠去我看了一下台東就是有一點雖然只有1.1萬公噸但是畢竟它就是一個好香好水的一個很優質的環境你們有沒有規劃要優先移走因為大家都去玩都期待我們保持原來的樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16483.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16505.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
包括委員 那個委員之前有關心整個台東的一個買廠是 所以我們很快的跟台東縣的環保局聯絡他原則在4月底之前他會統整這個一次那我們會到現場再去看對對對 原來今天我是要到台東去的是 沒關係你下次可以跟我一起去是 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16507.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16531.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
所以你們有列入優先的處理這樣很好所以也開始規劃了嗎有尤其委員上次特別提到天空之鏡成功獨立的那個部分今天留在你額外好不好謝謝 多謝最後一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16531.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16560.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
就是合併並督導就是各縣市的這個加速裸露垃圾的妥善處理期程那環境部你們黃官署已經在113年10月到11月之間發函同意備查並請各縣市依報這個期程於115年底前完成這個裸露堆置垃圾妥善處理包括有復塗打包跟焚化那後續呢每個月定期召開會議追蹤辦理進度那我要請問一下就是說你們這個目標真的可以達成嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16562.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16577.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
所有的這個環保局局長都有在上面簽署他一定會達到所以他們都有就職有簽署如果沒有達到就是他們的問題不是你的問題這是署長還有各縣市局長還有我都來就職 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16579.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16603.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
這樣我倆的手腳我就比較放心了那因為這個妥協處理的這個三個方式剛剛講的附土包括跟那個AI的監測它其實它只是告訴我們大家說一個概念性的做法它也沒有就是說到底能夠做到什麼程度還有具體的目標它沒有一個完整的說明也沒有這個強制力啦因為看起來沒有什麼法則 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16605.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16632.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
就是說本席很難去相信說貴部的這個還管署可以真的節制到各個縣市政府那如果說沒有辦法節制也不知道你們每個月定期召開這個會議到底能夠達到什麼樣的成效到底這個115年底對於這個裸露的這個垃圾的處理是不是可以變成不裸露還是說有更明確的目標那以後那例如說我們以後垃圾都不用掩埋了這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16634.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16659.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
這段期間其實我們總共有169次的現場督導其中由部長親自前往的有16場次那也拜會了有5個縣市首長所以我們很有信心我們會持續推動下去每月也在督導然後公布在網站上面每一個野麥場的增減量都在上面可以讓民眾來一起來關心以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16659.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16675.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
對 就是我講說關心 但我想比較強制力的做法我還是沒有聽到也沒有看到啦所以這個部分也是你會後要去好好研議思考的因為我們希望說環關署的升格是有意義的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16675.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16701.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
主要是這樣子 那也期待說在部長跟這個署長的這個努力之下當然部長好好督導這個署長我也是好好的監督你那我們就是希望能夠真正來解決這個掩埋場就是為人所詬病的這些惡臭 火災 地下水污染的這個垃圾 災運掩埋產生的這些空污的問題 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16703.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16705.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
謝謝陳警委員的發言也謝謝部長跟署長的答詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16712.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16737.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
本日會議詢答全部結束委員徐欣盈所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16738.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16741.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
本次會議到此結束現在散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16799.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16800.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO |