| IVOD_ID |
166173 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166173 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-03 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-15-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-03T10:32:48+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-03T10:42:21+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:33 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6f33f2d1a348230a6c7cefddca96be5002877a8620327ff6f0f7628e6d07117175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳宗憲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:32:48 - 10:42:21 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員王定宇等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第五十四條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員張宏陸等30人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員王義川等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員陳素月等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。八、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員王美惠等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員蘇巧慧等22人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員李坤城等20人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十四、審查委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員翁曉玲等24人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案。十七、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員李坤城等23人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十六條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第三十一條、第三十一條之一及第四十條條文修正草案」案。【第一案、第十七案至第十九案如經復議則不予審查；第二十案至第二十一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】
【12月3日及4日二天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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法務部次長還有內政部長其他部長跟次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
7.17 |
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謝謝兩位我想我們今天討論的是炸防條例那我想我想要提一個重點就是其實一直以來我一直主張一個很重要的點就是人民只在乎錢拿不拿的回來其實被告被判多久其實不是他們那麼在乎他們只希望我錢趕快回來所以我想我還是把一個焦點要重視在我們法治的設計有沒有辦法盡量讓被害人的損失能夠被填補 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
35.519 |
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所以我這次看完就是院部送來的整部草案雖然是利益良善我先說利益良善各位的好意我都有接受到但是因為我實務出身的我還是有一些想法我覺得如果法案這樣過可能會有一個人民沒有辦法接受的結果我先講第一個可能的結果是詐騙集團的高層拿錢換自由第二個被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
59.465 |
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84.408 |
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一毛錢有可能會被害連一毛錢都拿不到的狀況第三個還要全民養這些詐欺犯我先趕快簡單講草案的46條跟47條規定這個六個月內自白或自首期六個月內全額那個賠清這個可以減刑那聽起來好像很嚴格但是呢從被害人的角度來看這個會不會是圖利有錢能放棄底層犯會有這個風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
85.936 |
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那還有就是你想啦六個月內能夠拿出一大筆錢來賠完的這個大概都是高層才做得到因為我看到依據法務部你們的犯罪狀況分析還有民間司改會的研究大部分去賣賬戶出租賬戶的都是經濟弱勢所以他們不太可能 |
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107.992 |
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在六個月內他有辦法拿到這個有辦法去把這個賠光那我們訂了一個這個六個月的期限在那裡會不會讓他們覺得說反正我六個月也賠不完算了那我就牢底坐穿就好會不會有這個狀況發生反而讓被害人拿不到錢這個是我的擔心尤其是過往我們看到很多實務上面的案例他趕快和解簽一簽然後付一兩期檢察官結案了然後他後面就不付 |
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134.955 |
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實務上常發生但是學者可能有時候會忽略掉這一塊所以我跟兩位報告有這個狀況所以今天訂了一個六個月內的全額清償這個硬性的門檻會不會讓底層的被告認為反正我六個月也賠不完我乾脆就算了不賠 |
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152.202 |
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169.945 |
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那反而有一些被害人如果今天這個被告在接下來的一年兩年內他可以慢慢分期償還他卻因為我們訂了這個硬性的規定而他拿不到這個是我想到的很重大的一件事情 |
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170.712 |
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192.657 |
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你們也不要覺得說每個人都一定不想賠錢有的人犯錯他確實想要補償這個被害人他會願意花一年兩年的時間慢慢去賠這個錢所以待會我會有我自己的一個建議看這個文字的部分可不可以在家裡修改第二個我還要想要講一個很重要的點就是 |
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194.246 |
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204.222 |
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我們不希望說大量的人一直都全部都一直關我們只以關人為唯一的一個解決方式然後讓監獄人滿為患目前詐欺犯戰獸行人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
210.26 |
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226.805 |
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20.8%所以算是非常非常的高那我們希望不要讓你只要今天一犯罪就進去關就好我反而更希望是他們有沒有機會在我們國家的要求之下他賺錢趕快賠給這些被害人那當然如果你不賠我就把你抓去關請說次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
229.374 |
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258.1 |
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謝謝委員剛才委員所提到的說會不會是他有想要分期付款那你這個是不是阻斷他我想六個月的時間是經過我們大概實務上看法是一般的案件大概偵查三個月審判三個月抓這個數字那以前我們操作的結果我們讓他分期付款真的他一期二期等到判決以後他就不還那會造成被害人第二次的傷害所以我覺得這種分期付款的方式是不太可靠 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
258.993 |
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270.464 |
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我們這裡很重要一點是他是調解跟和解的全部金額所以不見得被害人需要全部賠償沒有我待會會說我的建議文字部分你們可以參考一下那在監所的部分的話我們這裡監所在他要假釋的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
274.704 |
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294.594 |
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他這個賠償被害的也是一個一個基準之一但是我們在講因為他在監所內我剛剛講了大部分的因為貴部的報告也是大部分都是屬於經濟弱勢的人他在監獄裡面做事情一天才幾百塊一個月勞作金幾百塊賠不了被害人所以我們今天會不會是國家的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
295.735 |
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323.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
善意的運作善意的對他的刑罰我們希望為這個國家社會安全好而把他抓去關但是反而讓被害人賠不到錢這是我擔心的點從事務的角度出發但是我沒有說這些人不該嚴懲這些人本來就要嚴懲還有這個我不希望說就好像是說這個病人急救要超過60分鐘太久了我趕快翻床褥所以我就不救我還是希望有機會讓被害人能夠拿回來錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
324.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
341.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
最好你讓他晚半年拿回來他只要拿得回來他什麼都好所以我一個建議就是第一個我希望我可以研究一下有沒有可能分級去減刑研究就好就是說譬如說全額賠償的人跟至少已經賠了50%或長期願意旅行 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
344.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
367.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
就是分期賠償的有沒有不同的對待方式這沿你就好我沒有強制的要求第二個拉長期限你們說六個月對不對那會不會我們可不可以把改成40省延遲辯論終結前而不要強制定六個月當然你說這六個月是你們的那個數據上面的顯示但是如果我們把它認為把它變成是40省延遲辯論終結前會不會比較有彈性 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
370.52 |
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384.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個請你們研究一下那很多時候反而有這個彈性的緩衝可以讓被告更有時間去籌錢去來賠要讓被告知道被害人的損失是我造成的我必須要負擔這個責任不好意思最後一個點 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
386.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
405.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我一直思考大家包括今天在座行政機關我們要不要思考一個刑事禁捨令我有看到你們第50條有禁捨條款但禁捨條款它變成是一個作文比賽它變成是量刑參考但是我們可不可以去思考到一個點很重要的點我實務經驗得到了一個點我們可不可以用一個如果你沒有賠完錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
406.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
433.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
被抓到奢侈行為我們有一個刑事禁捨令直接撤銷緩刑 撤銷假釋因為目前沒有嘛目前雖然假釋這個行政上面可以撤銷你如果和解金沒有賠可以撤銷但是我們是不是可以有一個你今天如果說騙了錢即使你有在還和解的錢可是被我發現你還在外面大手大腳的花不願意立刻拿出來賠錢我一個刑事禁捨令下去依據這個可以撤銷緩刑或撤銷假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
434.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
458.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
麻煩你們研究一下我個人在實務我的實務經驗告訴我這個東西對打詐絕對有效請研究一下第二個如果有高額消費要直接視為犯罪所得有一些人他他在外他其實很多錢是藏在某個地方啊那等到他自由在外的時候就開始大手大腳的花那我們是不是應該要把他視為犯罪所得優先還給被害人而不要讓他再慢慢賠錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
460.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
478.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
好那我覺得這才叫做打詐打詐我絕對要求嚴懲打詐我不會反對嚴刑峻法但是不要留於形式主義要真的能夠有效那我覺得各位很多都是實務出身的會懂我在說什麼還有法務部麻煩再次檢討一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
479.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
502.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
定因執行刑這個法律上的設計這是死理法因為大家都知道一罪一罰就全國國人以為說你犯越多罰越重我跟各位報告啊不是這樣啊一罪一罰確實是你犯了100條詐欺是判100條沒錯但是在最後回到定因執行刑的時候又得到一個超級黑卡金卡然後大打折 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
503.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
513.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
又回去原來的很輕所以各位才會發現我騙了100次跟騙兩次三次刑度差不多在定因執行刑的時候差不多所以定因執行刑該不該 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
515.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
537.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
一律存在或是可不可以在我們打詐的時候跟原本的其他案件脫鉤請你們要思考一下我看到的詐欺犯常常一來詐欺多到要請事務官幫我做列表他要搞一個列表才能夠看他兩三百次的詐欺然後他的前科表跟跟百科全書一樣厚他也不在乎然後反正定義執行之後又跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
538.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
566.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
騙一兩次的人判的一樣那詐欺集團的律師也是這樣在告訴教這些被告的反正你騙兩次跟騙五百次都判的差不多重反正定因執行刑又會回到最低了所以搞到最後根本沒有打詐的效果我在這邊點出都是實務的問題麻煩各位能夠從這地方去研擬修法不然我不好意思我只能找各位立法委員大家一起來修這個法律這就是實務上面的問題好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
567.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
569.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
再麻煩兩位能夠注意這個部分謝謝 |