| IVOD_ID |
166145 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166145 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-03 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
20 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-03T11:35:07+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-03T11:51:59+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:16:52 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d690a8e0a99bb853c982f8c8e0c6b9e8aea14720b4e10c82cb123a4db8f526838d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王定宇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:35:07 - 11:51:59 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍、國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「美中領導人再次電話通聯後對國際秩序及區域情勢之發展」，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席 麻煩部長請林部長部長早上好我常常講其實如果我們國家找一個部會是天天在打仗的話其實應該是外交部不見得是國防部不管是駐外人員或在台灣24小時當班的大家辛苦早上我聽到現在其實有點感想 |
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25.791 |
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我們常常感覺到中國天天威脅那我沒有看到有些人要求我們要求中國要有態度倒是現在中國要求圍堵日本現在在台灣要求我們的政府好像跟著圍堵日本中國傳染病沒辦法治療的一堆現在要我們提醒我們的遊客日本有流感這相當有意思那 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
50.924 |
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76.379 |
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國際上我們台灣有機會的時候要美國把態度拿出來可是天天都在質疑美國可是唯獨傷害台灣的中國從來沒有看到苛責或譴責這個是台灣的特殊現象我還是回到我們的主題啦兩個選舉牽動到地緣政治一個是聖文森聖文森的新民主黨完成大選大概也在11月底 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
77.304 |
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97.252 |
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那我看到台湾的媒体报导说这一个在野党赢得大选之后他们的总裁他们的主席他名字取得很好God Win Friday我看到这个名字我还在多查几次这个上帝会赢然后Thanks God It's Friday那他会接总理 |
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已經接了 對 接總理那接總理的時候大家都質疑說新民主黨好像曾經主張要跟中國建立邦交但我去查了 我不知道我查了對不對事實上這一個在野黨說要主張邦交的是上一個黨魁那是在2016年就外交部掌握的資訊目前我們跟盛文森的邦交以及新任的總理對 |
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125.529 |
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台聖之間的邦交關係是什麼態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
129.562 |
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152.739 |
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我們的大使已經去進見新的總理也遞送我們賴總統的賀函他也表示感謝請我們大使傳達至於委員真的是關鍵很多人把2016短暫任期的一個總裁而且這個黨魁其實不一樣而且他在社會上沒有得到支持是現在這個Friday他其實從競選期間都沒有去對 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
157.102 |
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所謂台灣中國這個問題上我就是想要聽到外交部做這樣子的分析也就是說大家說聖文森危險了選舉就把他跟洪都拉斯類比其實我有一個基本態度不要以為選舉的語言馬上可以變成外交的紅利沒那麼容易地緣政治也沒有那麼單純但聖文森的NDP這個新民主黨上一次表達要跟中國所謂的建立邦交是在2016 |
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187.261 |
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2016小學六年級的小朋友都讀大學了那個是蠻長一段時間那現在這個Friday呢他在選舉當中曾經有人質問他對中國的態度他不表態 |
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198.997 |
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215.091 |
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他不表態而且中國下了重本他還是不表態所以我覺得外交部對這邊當然要審慎的去密切的觀察而我們跟盛文森是建立在理念相近台灣不花大錢買邦交國我們是真實去關心這個國家達到雙贏那剛才好幾個委員問到了事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
218.274 |
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240.421 |
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邦交的狀態有很多維繫的方法其中元首外交出訪外交是一個重要的方式因為它不僅是維繫的方式元首能夠出訪能夠到那一國其實也是一個政治上外交上的表態那就外交部現在有沒有規劃我們賴清德總統出訪邦交國 |
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242.726 |
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我們當然都有在評估因為我們的邦交國分散在不同州比如說我們去年是安排賴總統所謂的智慧永續繁榮南島之旅那就是三個邦交國那其他現在還沒有到訪的當然包括加勒比海跟中南美洲另外非洲等等所以委員提到的這個都在我們的規劃當中有規劃中我問一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
269.261 |
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281.115 |
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你們認為出訪的最佳時機點是在2026年的1月2月3月4月5月6月我列這6個月這個季度會不會是適合的時候 |
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282.818 |
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306.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
第一個各國他們都有自己的內政或有節慶或是什麼樣的大型活動那當然有時候過去有就職典禮但是現在我更直接一點就是人家總理就職嘛那對盛文森來講是一個喜事嘛還有我們的包括建交幾週年啊或一般的國事訪問也都有訪問盛文森最佳的時機明年初會不會是個好的時間點 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
308.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
327.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我想都是好時機啦因為對我們邦交國來講特別是在因為加勒比海有三加一國我想三加一國是三聖再加海地海地現在情況還是比較混亂你如果要安排去海地我個人一定堅決反對這個安全考量對但我現在是要講說因為如果去三聖去這些國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
328.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
356.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那過境美國是必然那過境美國有很多選擇像我們12月3號華航成為全亞洲第一個直飛太陽城鳳凰 鳳凰城鳳凰城 太陽城他們球隊鳳凰城那鳳凰城是亞利桑那我們有我們有國軍在那邊受訓那紐約也不錯紐約也不錯就是說我覺得國人關心的就是我們元首外交要發揮到恰到好處在 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
358.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
378.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
川普跟台灣的對等關稅即將conclusion應該已經接近要揭露的時候那我們的邦交國也選出新的在野黨當選總理那事實上也是值得強化維持關係的穩定那外交部在短期內有沒有可能安排總統出訪我最後這個問題要請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
381.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
396.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為現在是12月嘛因為聖誕節剛過然後聖誕節到了其實這個時候各國的情形都是比較忙碌於農曆年前有沒有可能農曆年前有沒有機會這都不能排除但並沒有決定說是什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
397.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
417.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
決定的是美國的規格還是盛文森我們要到訪國家他們的安排因為他們的元首或者因為這個涉及到因為總理的這個國家比較不是一個正式這麼大的就職典禮總統是啦不管是瓜地馬拉或巴拉圭所以這個都涉及到到訪國他的適當的時機的安排 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
420.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
432.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我相信我們倆都樂見越早越好農曆年前的話其實是個不錯的選擇謝謝委員的建議下一題我們來到宏都拉斯宏都拉斯現在國會是128席90席 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
435.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
459.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
右派的兩個政黨聯盟取得他不只是達到修憲的86席的門檻他可以決定等於是宏都拉斯所有的重大決策所以國會是一個面向他們現在總統的開票第一名跟第二名這個Esfura跟這個Nasrallah兩個人好像差0.02%差幾千票而已現在開票已經到最後結果了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
460.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
481.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
還沒有最後結果那第三名大概確定第三名第三名不會有什麼改變了啦因為開票已經六十幾趴了第三名大概那個十幾趴追不上來了那就可以想見現在是右派親美親台的政黨控制三分之二的國會席次 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
482.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
505.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
而一二名在競逐最後總統結果兩位都是親美親台派當然第一名那個是川普總統直接助選的那我們當然不用急得過度樂觀在外交上做表態但我要請教外交部 外交部其實你們都有很多套劇本目前是不是已經至少跟國會端有沒有展開接觸了 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
507.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
532.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
個別的國會議員當然因為其實洪都拉斯跟台灣斷交也才兩三年的時間都有很多聯繫往來的關係那剛剛講這兩位領先的總統候選人我們也都有溝通互動的機會他們有沒有提出在長遠的經濟理念合作上的想法來尋求跟我們的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
533.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
541.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我想大方向他們對台灣模式尤其我們的榮邦計畫當然現在是很了解也覺得是聽說他們有興趣我的意思是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
543.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
562.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們兩個都算記過嘛他在選舉要開什麼支票要幹嘛的時候他一定要確保說可行性嘛所以我再詢問的是這兩位總統這個潛在的可能當選人以及國會的前兩大主要政黨控制90席跟我們國家外交部相關單位有沒有在選舉前選舉後展開接觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
565.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
579.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
選舉前是都有互動啦也都有我想對於這個因為他們也是公開的表達要跟台灣會晤邦交嘛我們當然會主動去聯繫可是要具體的方案要等到他開票票開完 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
581.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
593.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
總統當選這個時候就排紅合作的項目因為他施政的重點是什麼那我們跟他的合作的項目你們有沒有派比較高階的外交官現在進駐到紅國 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
596.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
624.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我們沒有辦法在洪都拉斯因為我們現在那邊沒有這個設代表處我們現在還有人在那裡嗎並沒有正式的因為我們沒有NGO的模式我們是應該講說以這個區域中美洲來講我們都持續有專人他們現在監俠是由哪一國監俠瓜地馬拉來監俠洪都拉斯所以我們現在有沒有人在洪都拉斯委員這個就是說我當然不方便這樣講但是應該是保持很好的溝通互動 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
625.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
647.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
因為美國通過台北法案的時候就把他們的外交工具箱的工具跟我們台灣的外交箱的工具綁在一起來維繫邦交擴展外交這個是當時通過相當好的法案現在美國跟台灣有沒有就紅國的局勢根據這個台北法案展開相關的合作的初期的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
648.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
677.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
其實台美在第三國關係不管是外交或者是經貿其實都有持續在就是說討論嘛那以這個Marco Rubio國務卿他到了瓜地馬拉他就肯定他跟台灣維持邦交他在召集很多中美洲或阿拉伯海的時候的一些會議也都是這樣子講那當然這個也會起一些比較正面的鼓勵的效果美台已經基於美國正式通過生效的 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
678.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
690.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
台北法案 其實它全名是台灣什麼外交關係強化法案 縮寫是台北法案已經基於這個法案台灣跟美國之間就洪都拉斯的局勢有進行一些初期的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
691.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
716.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
的溝通合作我們台美之間都有針對第三國的關係的發展進行溝通這個是重要訊息因為事實上美國川普總統現在非常重視中南美這一塊重視到都派航母在加勒比海所以這一塊其實是他重視的重點那我最後一個問題要請教是以宏都拉斯來看我們台灣應該要看誰是下一個宏都拉斯 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
717.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
726.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
宏都拉斯為什麼會產生這麼大的政治的變局來自於第一個經濟的問題而經濟的問題來自於中國不僅承諾了支票跳票 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
727.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
754.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
而且還大量的倒貨把生產過剩的東西倒貨回去害當地國家中小企業整個崩盤這是宏都拉斯模式也就是中國承諾跳票經濟下行第二個其實潛在的因素是美國跟這個國家的關注度跟關心程度以及台灣過去跟他們在經貿合作上的關係這三個指標如果把它撈出來呢我這個表其實沒有寫全部啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
755 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
776.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
除了宏都拉斯巴拿馬巴拿馬現在有基礎建設停擺美國警告巴拿馬不可以把運河讓中國的公司接管所以巴拿馬也跟中國解約了解放軍不可以到那裡所以巴拿馬符合我剛才講三個指標裡面的兩個聖多美我就不多談了其他一個國家薩爾瓦多 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
778.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
795.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
薩爾瓦多Rubio親自到那裡薩爾瓦多用美金薩爾瓦多現在主要的外匯來源包含接收美國的重刑犯來自於美國所以我們我們台灣的外交部有沒有去評估這樣子的變局下一個宏都拉斯可能是哪一國 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
797.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
807.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我們當然都在評估也都會為未來發展關係做準備不過目前外面看到因為洪都拉斯大選巴拉馬斯剛選過去年就是今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
815.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
841.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
巴拿馬是去年嘛巴拿馬去年選舉對對 去年啦那哥斯大黎加是明年2月所以這選舉時程會影響到哥斯大黎加派了情報人員來台灣做情報訓練嘛當然是台美哥斯大黎加巴拿馬這次9個國務院出國出國前還發新聞說中國叫他們不要來這個都是一些跡象那我講具體一點我最後這個問題就收尾啦薩爾瓦多 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
842.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
849.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
原來的薩爾瓦多市的市長他在選舉的時候就說他當選要跟台灣恢復邦交 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
851.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
875.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
他那時候認為他去挑戰執政者說你們這個背棄台灣是錯誤的決策換他當選了而薩爾瓦多後來川普總統2.0的時候跟薩爾瓦多簽訂了協議所以他外匯來源現在主要靠美國那薩爾瓦多這一個現任的總統有沒有表達跟台灣進行更深一點更高層次一點的互動就你的了解有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
877.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
903.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
就想 我想選舉時候的這個意見跟選後的作為因為中共也會失利嘛所以我們這種外交上面的情形除了雙邊關係也涉及到第三方包括美國的角色 確實但是我們怎麼樣提供一個好的模式也就是我們現在在推龍幫計畫我們不是用什麼其他過去大量的援助而是用怎麼樣去部長我的意思是說薩爾瓦多我們還有人在那裡嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
905.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
932.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我們也沒有代表處在那裡比如中美洲當然中美洲有一些集體的包括中美洲銀行或其他的我們還是有些人員跟人脈在那裡啦有 人脈是有那用什麼形式留我們就不在這邊討論但我的意思是說Rubio重視薩爾瓦多親自跑了那一趟然後才去瓜地馬拉誇獎瓜地馬拉跟台灣的邦交維持是一個正確的模式然後美國簽了一些約一些資源在那個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
933.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
944.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
而就我們了解薩爾瓦多的總統當選後也有曾經表達一些想法所以我的意思是說我們外交部就薩爾瓦多目前的狀況有沒有什麼可以跟納稅人報告的一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
946.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
967.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
中美洲我們是當作整個區域因為這是川普政府重視西半球可是我們先鞏固瓜貝兩國然後現在就是有選舉產生新政府的我們當然會如果他有意願我們是會積極來跟他談所以薩爾瓦多的部分就是容我這裡就不方便正式的對外說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
968.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
986.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
但是他是整個區域我們都一併考慮的我們當然很多戰線但你知道嗎我們的防守面現在比較小中國的防守面比較大所以有這些訊息的揭露有時候換他們疲於奔命也不是壞事啦但是我們原來外交都多交理念相近的朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
987.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1010.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
不要撒大錢撒大幣去買邦交我們不幹這個事但在有機會的時候千萬不要因為害怕我們多了一個更深層更高階的關係所以中國採取報復式根本不要擔心這個因為你什麼都沒做他照樣要摧毀你的邦交關係所以那個顧慮是不用的我只要提醒這一點對那至於其他這些相近的國家有機會請外交部加油好不好好 謝謝我們來努力 |