| IVOD_ID |
16613 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16613 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
13 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-23T08:31:50+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-23T14:30:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:58:10 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea062e4d1cae62d4ae1e7e4de50953ef4dbd9360bdedb08522ddeb5fd6123a64205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。
二、審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。
三、審查委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。
四、審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。
五、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。
六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七十二條條文修正草案」案。
七、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。
八、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案。
九、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案。
十、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。
十一、審查委員魯明哲等18人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。
【詢答及處理】
【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:50 - 14:30:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
649.29 |
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651.056 |
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我們是講道理的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
684.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
686.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我們是想到我們是想 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2025.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2051.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
大家早安請主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員11人已足法定人數好現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年4月21日星期一上午9時至11時24分地點紅龍202會議室出席委員蘇巧慧委員等13人列席委員林倩琪委員等4人請教委員蔓玉珍委員1人 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2052.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2081.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
練習官員內政部部長劉世芳暨相關人員原住民組委員會常務副主任委員鍾欣華暨相關人員財政部國庫署副署長林秀燕暨相關人員法務部參事廖江縣中央選舉委員會海洋委員會全序部環境部農業部文化部經濟部交通部教育部國家發展委員會行政院人事行政總處行政院主計總處等單位代表暨相關人員主席劉昭吉委員許庭謝謝請問各位委員上次還沒對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2083.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2110.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
節奏太快報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定討論事項一審查委員劉許廷等17人拟據行政區劃罰草案案二審查委員邱振軍等18人拟據行政區劃罰草案案討論事項和並尋答內政部部長劉世芳報告委員張志倫等13人質詢由內政部部長劉世芳及相關人員原住民組委員會常務副主任委員鍾新華及財政部國庫署副署長林修彥答覆說明登記發言委員處不在場者外其餘均已發言完並尋答結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2111.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2130.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
委員黃建斌蘇巧惠等二人所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一周內另以書面答覆並複製本會決議以上個案均另定期繼續審查條文均已宣讀完畢宣讀完畢好請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或疑惑之處好沒有那議事錄確定謝謝大家那麼我們繼續進行討論事項請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2139.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2157.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
审查委员罗廷伟等16人委员高金素梅等21人委员王洪威等24人分别拟据社会秩序维护法第64条条文修正查案审查委员林思明等22人拟据社会秩序维护法第64条条文修正查案审查委员鲁明哲等17人拟据社会秩序维护法第89条条文修正查案 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2158.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2187.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
宣查台湾民众党党团拟据社会秩序维护法第64条及第72条条文修正查案审查委员邱若华等19人拟据社会秩序维护法第64条条文修正查案审查委员邱若华等19人拟据社会秩序维护法第72条条文修正查案审查委员严宽涵等16人拟据社会秩序维护法第9条条文修正查案审查委员严宽涵等16人委员鲁明哲等18人分辨拟据社会秩序维护法第89条条文修正查案宣读完 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2190.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2214.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
好那我們本日議程所列的討論事項我們就來合併詢答現在介紹在場委員及列席官員首先委員的部分我們高金素美委員張志倫委員蘇巧慧委員黃婕委員還有是我們的提案人王宏威委員羅廷瑋委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2218.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2234.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
官員部分我們內政部劉世芳部長警政署張榮興署長好那我們現在先進行提案說明的部分我們請提案委員說明提案要旨第一位我們請高金素美委員進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2241.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2269.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
謝謝我們今天要談的是社會維持維護法那麼我在這邊我的提案說明是說現在不僅僅是演唱會連運動賽事醫療掛號餐旅住宿遊樂園的票券甚至呢熱門的餐廳地位只要是非常搶手的資源通通都成了黃牛套利的對象黃牛呢無所不在因為我們的制度是處處破洞而我們的政府長期失能 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2269.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2277.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我們看到去年雅景賽的門票被炒到七倍這消息一出社會嘩然但是最後法院卻以未遂不罰為理由輕輕的放過這等於是默許了黃牛在法律的邊緣上面遊走 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2287.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2293.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
法律如果不修 漏洞就一直在 執法不延 黃牛當然就不怕那現在的規定 我們執法已經賣出的草票行為對於那種準備拿來轉賣 只差還沒有交易完成的惡行卻裝作沒看到 這個沒有辦法可以管民怨士氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2309.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2322.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
因此我主張要修正社會秩序維護法的第64條明確的將意圖轉受圖利納入處罰的範圍不論是不是有成交只要有黃流的意圖就應該要依法來開罰再者適用範圍必須要擴大不限於演唱會或者是藝文活動所有採取網路搶票 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2337.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2355.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
限量預約機制的資源通通都應該要納入這不單單只是打擊黃牛而是在守住一個公平社會的基本規則只要還有一張被炒高的票一個被霸佔的名額就是對守法國民的嘲諷 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2356.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2382.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
最後我要懇請在場的每一位委員還有相關部會支持本席的提案讓我們的修法能夠順利的出委員會三讀通過我們要的不僅僅只是法律條文的修正而是要還給人民一個乾淨公平的購票環境要守住社會秩序也守住人民的基本權益謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2384.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2389.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
謝謝主席 社會秩序維護法第64條提案說明黃牛票一直都是消費者還有活動舉辦方跟政府單位積極關注的狀況那這個違法的行為呢 伴隨著科技的應用跟社會發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2412.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2429.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
是日益猖獗那包含運輸遊樂票券藝文票券運動票券還有各式只要是涉及休閒的一些商品票券都成為黃牛集團的一個魔力的目標那現在甚至呢在台灣那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2430.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2455.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
这些黄牛甚至已经出现了一个集团性的组织性的犯罪那今年呢2月份才有这个揭露就是有一对流行的夫妻党他从民国105年开始就全职用全职的方式从事转售代购所有的热门演唱会或运动赛事的黄牛票从中摸取不当的利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2456.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2464.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
而這樣子的經營甚至他的旗下的粉絲團竟然高達五萬人來做追蹤所以這已經變成是一個集體性的一個犯罪的行為那所以這個部分呢我們除了現行的譬如說包含文化創意產業發展法還有刑法裡面的違照文書之外但是呢我們在像社會秩序維護法事實上是欠缺像這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2485.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2509.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
去处罚还有阻止这样的一个犯罪行为那么社会秩序维护法在从80年制定到现在第64条对于锁定的违反行为的罚环是没有任何的修正和调整所以恐怕会失去原来立法去维系社会秩序 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2510.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2528.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
的用意所以呢在这边新增了我的提案新增了一文票券运动票券医疗票券参旅食宿票券各式休闲及商品票券全部都纳入我们这次来修法的规范 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2529.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2556.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
而这个罚款由原来的新台币一万八千元以下提高到三万八千元以下的罚款借此来能够提升这些犯罪的成本来遏止这些意图要转受盈利或者转受图利者来真正的落实我们社会秩序的维护那么以上的提案请内政委员会的委员们能够予以支持通过谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2558.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2562.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好 謝謝王宏輝委員提案說明下一位我們請羅廷瑋委員提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2570.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2596.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
好 謝謝昭偉隨著數位科技跟網路平台的一個蓬勃發展我們現在看到票券黃牛的行為真的呈現是一個產業化那系統化的一個匿名化更是有一種趨勢已非單一個體現場倒賣的一個行為近年來 無論是大型的藝文展演從張學友 周杰倫 林俊傑到未來的CNBLUE還有 茉莉紅 郭靖 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2596.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2621.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
甚至是陳奕迅我想這些大型的藝文展演都是年輕人喜愛耳熟能詳還有職業運動賽事醫療掛號名額觀光住宿券乃至於特定商品的預購都有這樣子的一個狀況皆頻繁遭遇到票券秒殺轉手高價炒作的亂象 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2622.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2638.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
社會輿論反彈非常的強烈民眾參與的機會是非常非常的受損整體的交易秩序與公平已經遭受嚴重的破壞我們看到現行的制度社會秩序維護法第64條第二款 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2639.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2659.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
的规定黄牛行为需达到转售图利计税即可构成处罚要件对于尚未完成交易但已经在网路平台造成实体现场兜售相关的一个票卷明显具有意图图利的行为现在却没有任何的规范形成的执法落差跟漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2660.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2672.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
本次的修法的目的就是要強化黃牛的行為的防治還有及時的取締將意圖轉售盈利及未遂階段的都明文納入到處罰的一個範圍內並納入各類社會參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2676.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2703.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
票券類型以補現行法令的不足並強化及時的這個預防效果維護我們整個整體市場的一個秩序最重要的是消費者的權益也希望我們內政委員會所有的全體委員共同來將這一個法案趕緊來修訂謝謝好謝謝洛天輝委員的提案說明下一位我們請台灣民眾黨黨團代表麥玉珍委員進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2711.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2716.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
主席 各位先進 各位委員 大家早安本次我們台灣民眾黨黨團所提出的社會秩序維護法第64條及72條條文修正案 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2726.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2755.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
阻止再回应当前社会民众所面对的两大生活困扰医疗挂号黄牛和生活噪音干扰这两项问题若未妥善处理将严重侵害人民生活品质与基本权益首先就说64条之修法的部分我国迈入高龄社会民众对健康照护的需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2757.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2760.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
越來越貼切括號看診也成日常生活的重要部分然而目前卻出現了醫療括號黃流黃河的亂象所以許多大型的醫院如台大醫院 婦產科門診場場 網路醫院一味難求然實際現場就醫 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2787.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2810.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
数位人未打上线,显示关号支援遭少数人垄断并转售的犀利。此项除险害真正有需要人民就医的权利,更引发医事团体的连番的呼应。 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2811.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2831.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們現行法例對於藝文體育活動票券已有明文限制黃流的行為卻對醫療掛號票券未設禁令嫌有不足因此我們提案明確將醫療掛號還有票券納入黃流行為之罰款的範疇 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2839.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2869.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
并将罚款上限至18000元提高于3万元以显政府捍卫医疗资源公平性的决心接下来是72条关于噪音防害的修正噪音噪音防害的修正现代都市生活中噪音干扰成为普遍的社会问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2870.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2898.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
从洗衣转机转运转从屋骄生到邻居夜间的喧哗这些谁非工业噪音却对居家安宁生产生实质的影响目前噪音管制法对于非直续性或难以亮车的噪音 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2899.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2904.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
明確應由警察機構依相關的法規處理但實質上警察帶多依社會秩序維護法第72條罰款然而現行規範的僅除6000元以下的罰款根本無法面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2925.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2949.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
行为人产生有效的下足因此我们建议参考照应管制法第23条标准将第72条的罚款上限提高至18000提高处罚效率保障民众基本生活安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2950.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2974.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
安宁权总结来说本修法并非指法加强罚款而是在回应社会变迁移民意的期待通过合法合理的修法补救好法治的漏洞建立更有预防性以公平性生活治税的范畴 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2976.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2983.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
敬請各位委員的支持本案讓我們共同為台灣民眾製造更健康更安寧的生活環境謝謝大家好 謝謝台灣民眾黨麥玉珍委員提案說明那麼接下來我們請內政部劉思芳部長針對今天的主題進行簡單的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3003.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3024.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
主席 各位委員 各位先進 大家好首先感謝大院各位委員對內政部跟所屬業務上的支持跟指導今天就審查委員包括羅廷瑋委員 高金素美委員 王洪威委員 林思敏委員等還有魯明哲委員等 邱若驊委員等 顏寬恒委員等 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3024.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3043.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
以及台湾民众党团所提的社会秩序维护法修正草案一共有11案那么案内呢所涉及的是社会秩序维护法里面第9条第64条第72条及第89条那就本次修正草案的重点栽数跟本部的意见如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3043.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3069.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
第一个有关于社会法第九条第一项第三款针对英雅人修正为听觉语言障碍者一案因为听觉语言障碍者一词也就是社会贯称的听语障人士听语障者或听语障人尚未符合英雅人之普遍概念及一致定义所以无由适用减轻处罚的法理且掺着行政法法第九条关于行政秩序罚则认 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3074.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3085.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
第二,社會法第六十四條第二款針對黃牛票券管制修正一案。一、警察機關並非各類票券的目的事業主管機關。關於藝文、運動、醫療、參旅 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3088.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3110.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
十數各式休閒及商品票券及其他各類票券之管理及罰則應回歸各票券主管機關為之第二為解決黃牛票的爭議行政院在108年到112年共召開了四次跨部會的會議最終決議由各該主管機關嚴定相關法律管理及處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3112.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3128.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
第三有关社会法第72条第三款针对噪音管制修正一案一噪音管制及处罚现在已经有噪音管制法或其他专法来管制考量日常生活当中各种噪音发生情况不一 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3128.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3148.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
声音来源需借助专业之仪器或设备加以判定警察机关并非各种生活噪音之目的事业主管机关应横着环保机关及警察机关之职长、专业、功能性质由噪音管制法统一纳管并且回归环保主管机关依照专法查处取缔各种噪音 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3149.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3171.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
第二现行社会秩序维护法分责各条款之罚还数额已经具备有内在逻辑的一致性若仅为加重处罚单一特定行为而特别提高罚还金额恐有为社会法体系的一致性且与本条其余二款行为是否恰当尚需考量原此本条款不建议修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3172.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3193.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
4.有关于社会法第89条第二款针对跟追行为修正一案本条款仅处罚跟追行为关于纠缠、跟踪、骚扰等侵扰行为现行定有跟踪骚扰防治法或其他专法如家庭暴力防治法、性平三法加以保护被害人、处罚或处遇加害人之机制 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3194.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3219.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
並且定有事前預防事中制止及事後保護等規定應該由各該主管機關譬如衛福部主管性騷擾防治法及家庭暴力防治法勞動部主管性別平等工作法教育部主管性別平等教育法等等於職長或職權來查處之上開法令如有不足建議修正各該法令將更為妥適其更具時效 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3220.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3247.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
原此建议删除本条款的规定综合以上几点的报告本次委员所提的社会法修正案如果涉及各主管机关的职长权责应该由各主管机关按照现有法令或者权责拟定相关法律加以管制及处罚警察行政协助之角色必要时候使由警察机关来协助以上报告请各位委员会议指教谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3249.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3274.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
好 謝謝我們劉思芳部長的報告說明其他單位的報告我們就請委員自行參閱我們會刊登公報現在進行詢問委員質詢前原例做以下幾點宣告第一 本會委員發言時間五分鐘必要時延長一分鐘非本會委員發言時間四分鐘上午十點三十分截止發言登記第二 因為今天法案處理我們本次會議不處理臨時提案請問各位委員對此有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3276.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3281.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
好謝謝那我們現在進行詢問我們請登記第一位蘇喬惠委員質詢好謝謝主席我們請部長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3302.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3325.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
委員長部長好我們今天要來討論社會秩序維護法修正那剛剛也看到不管是您的口頭或者是書面提供的這個報告裡面呢其實對於這個大概有11位委員提出的版本當中已經都做了分類那這個分類我看到您這個大部分我們其實應該今天就是有不管是根據要 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3327.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3346.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
對應聯合國身心障礙公約要來做修正或者是所謂的噪音啊黃牛甚至是這個後面跟騷這樣幾個部分內政部其實都明確表態了嘛你看剛剛那幾個部分都有明確表態支持或不支持這樣的部分前面幾個部分我大概可以跟內政部採 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3348.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3368.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
接近或相同的立場啦 相同或接近的立場不過根於跟騷的這個部分我倒是想請教一下部長部長我們這個在這個書面報告當中已經提到多次就是說我們現在也不專法跟騷法上路了已經大概兩年了 部長你可以先跟我們說明一下這兩年來內政部有沒有統計觀察覺得新法專法上路之後執行的狀況如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3375.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3389.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
謝謝委員的關心跟蹤騷擾防治法當然主管機關也在是我們警政單位那從111年6月上任以來到上個月底3月底的時候警察機關受理的案件是8224件沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3391.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3395.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
書面告誡是5409違反書面告誡有513也就是說超過八成以上的跟騷行為經過警察機關跟刑事調查程序以後已經有達到遏止的效果但是我們在處理的過程當中其實也持續的跟民間團體或是專家學者還有網路 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3414.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3429.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
的這些相關的這個民眾處理有關於諮詢的會議那發現到有一部分可能我們還需要做比較好的精進的措施所以就是這部專法立了以後對所謂跟騷跟蹤騷擾的這種樣態行為樣態是有嚇止防治制止的效果沒有錯嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3435.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3443.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
這部是有的好但是它也應該值得精進那我想回過頭來來跟部長討論一下你看看我們這樣兩年多的時間我們受理了8224件核發的這個這個有書面告誡的這個部分是5409所以核發率是65.8那反過來就是說我就是希望能夠得到一個這個申戒這個警告這樣子的狀態有被處理的嘛我的案件有被處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3465.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3469.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
顯然有大概三成左右的狀態是不被受理的那這是什麼樣的樣態回過頭來講我們看根梢法的第三條其實很明白的就定義了所謂這部專法根梢法它是以性或性別為處理的原則當時我還記得這個第十屆我們在處理這部專法的時候我也在這部我參與甚多當時就一樣是內政部警政署這邊說 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3493.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3504.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
因為跟蹤騷擾的樣態太多了所以如果方方面面都要進入這部專法的話我們其實沒有辦法能夠處理所以我們要界定一個範圍就是性與性或性別有關係這樣的狀態所以簡單講 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3508.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3525.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我們有一部有效的專法了但這部專法是只有跟性或性別有關啊那剩下的樣態呢我看你的這個樣態裡面部長你應該也會同意嘛不合法討債啦或者是新聞跟蹤啊或者是還有很多種樣態是跟性或性別無關的跟蹤騷擾那這個部分怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3527.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3540.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
目前我們可能採取其他的方式來處理比如說什麼你的報告裡面有提到比如說社委法社委法不就是今天這部對不對所以您剛剛提到就是這三層的部分但是實際上的情形的話我可能要請執行機關來跟委員報告部長你說就是用 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3542.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3569.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
社會法來處理嘛對你的報告裡面其實第一我為什麼跟你討論這個就是第一你現在在說社會上有各種糾纏跟蹤騷擾行為這種方式的寫法絕對不限於性或性別嘛對不對然後我們的這個能夠有的這個法制呢有刑事法律處罰或跟騷法性平三法家庭暴力法也沒有錯啊到這邊我都合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3570.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3578.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
所以我就來問你那你為什麼這個我們現在剩下的一個就是社違法可是你最後的主張其實是認為這一條可以刪掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3582.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3609.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
不是處罰 我在說處理 處理處理啊 內政部你的意見是本部要為 部長你剛剛正對 順著我的邏輯這樣下來以後我們現在唯一撇去性或性別的這一塊用性騷 性平三法來處理之後我們剩下的是刑法跟社會法沒有錯啊 到這裡都對可是我正式在跟你討論部內的意見是今天的修正要把社會法刪掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3610.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3636.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
所以我不同意喔不是社委法刪掉就是修正的條文不是社委法刪掉所以你的主張是認為是來當然條文還是可以再跟委員一起考慮啦對但是您剛所提到就是這是我們的沒有注意到的一個面向因為你把根梢法跟社委法來做比較的時候呢發現有這樣面向我們需要再做處理的話我想可以聽聽大院委員的建議我們來看看怎麼做最佳的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3637.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3653.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
好那所以如果是這樣的話社會法那您剛所提的部分我是不是請那個署長跟你回答一下好 署長您回答一下委員就是說這一個跟騷法主要跟性有關係那跟性沒有關係的這些的跟騷的行為那可以適用其他包括有像草寨的糾紛聚眾的滋擾鄰里糾紛或記者的跟追這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3657.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3672.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
有其他法律的適用有包括有刑法或者是設置法那如果設置法這裡面大概就是就是這些屬於行政不法的部分可以來做一個來做一個再更完整的一個修正好 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3673.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3694.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那這樣 好好好那幸好我們有透過口頭先質詢部長和署長我們今天這是您提供的書面報告我不曉得你這幾個樣態這幾個條文你是不是有不同的幕僚單位提供的狀態你可以很清楚的看到你們從第一項我們剛剛說這次有四項修正嘛那你的每一項裡面你都有很清楚的結論啊第一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3698.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3722.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這個跟行政院生性障礙公約聯合國生性障礙公約的這個相關的你的結論是建議刪除英雅人的規定那後面呢這個黃牛的部分呢你的建議是不建議修正再來噪音的部分你也是不建議修正好但是到最後這個在跟騷的這個部分呢你所寫的部內意見是建議刪除本條款規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3725.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3747.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
所以我們看起來我們是有點誤會沒關係如果只是一個文字上用語的落差事實上部內是贊成說我們只是不贊成該委員提案修正我們不是要刪除社會法那我今天的質詢也是很有公諭因為我們造成了非常大的誤會天大的誤會不希望有兩個不同的罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3749.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3776.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
不是表示說那個就是我們的不贊成的部分大概不一定是說我們全部的版本都不贊成你前面其實對委員的版本是相當有意見啦這個在於刑罰的這個橫平性啊等等的罰金數額你通通都不贊成嘛所以最後你是建議刪除本田委員好不要再佔用其他委員時間我們等一下還有修法的空間你能不能再明確的表態一次你對社委法第89條現在的意見現行版本以及委員修正版本您的意見是是我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3778.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3803.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
想法就是說一個行為不要有兩個不同的原則跟罰則啦那適用哪裡我們認為說目前委員如果要修正第89條的話那是不是可以就是適用以現在為主比較好不要再做修正所以你不贊成委員的提案版本建議保留現行條文是好謝謝部長我們剩下的下午再討論連主席都笑了大家都看不懂啊抱歉抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3804.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3832.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
好謝謝蘇小慧委員的質詢下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早我們是請劉部長劉部長有請好謝謝劉部長那今天討論的是有關於這個社會法的修法的部分那今天的面向也很多那本席這邊要跟部長請教的 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3833.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3858.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
首先就是有關於社會法的一些重要的修法部分那其實要先跟部長報告社會法的修法其實對我們一般的老百姓非常重要尤其在很多小老百姓他們所重視的一些內容希望說可以得到及時而且快速的一個處理那首先我要先跟部長請教說裡面今天討論的部分有關於這個噪音的 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3860.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3881.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
問題其實也是這次生活噪音的問題也是這次修法的一個內容那主要的原因就是說現在大家知道嗎雖然現在有社委法跟現在的噪音防治法等等相關的一些法令可是民眾還是很多的受到一些困擾比如說居家噪音比如說樓上有時候晚上凌晨的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3881.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3904.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
有寵物在叫或喧嘩吵鬧或是有人在那邊敲敲敲或唱歌或有些洗衣機的運轉這些東西那其實這些都是應該都是屬於一種噪音而且造成這個民眾有時候苦不堪言那他們第一個想法都會覺得是說先報警要先報警可是報警的部分其實警察能做的方式相對於來講是比較少的 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3906.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3932.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那在您的那個我們內政部的報告裡面也寫說希望說未來這個內容應該由環境機關來負責那這邊我要請教就是說其實我認為是說其實環境相關機關應該跟這個內政警政機關相關一起來合作因為現在遇到的問題是說就這個社會法的部分它的有一個執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3933.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3948.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
是要求說以這個不持續性或不易測量可是會妨礙他人生活安寧的這個用色違法可是對環境部而言他是認為持續性連續兩分鐘以上的才是環境部來去做處理所以這樣子讓人民會覺得無所適從 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3949.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3964.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
就是一般人民比如說遇到噪音的時候他就先打電話報警可是打電話報警的時候他可能沒有找環境部來做處理所以變成說環境部也沒有來處理造成民眾這個有一點點不知道要怎麼去做所以我想要請教部長的 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3964.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3993.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
環境部的報告裡面有寫說他是只管不持續性的他是寫說不持續性的他就不罰導致很多的生活噪音是由警方來處理就是說這樣的法規設計是否有點本末倒置那你其實在你在你的這個整個報告裡面最後一頁其實你也有寫說你們現在已經對社會違法要進行相關的處理所以本席是不是想要請教你們現在針對相關的法律你們是要其實民眾他們所擔心的就噪音的問題到底警察單位跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3994.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4016.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
環保單位他們是要怎麼來通力來協助然後去解決人民的問題是有關噪音管制法的部分當然主管機關是環境部那環境部有代表過來我想是不是可以請他們一起來回應剛剛委員所垂詢的問題但是有關於這個社福法社維法它社維法是管的是就是不持續性的所以民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4017.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4024.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
不是 我要跟委員報告不持續性的部分的話它的定義確實很困擾譬如說家裡面養的狗大吠了兩聲然後你就要打電話找警察警察到了時候狗就沒有再吠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4032.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4036.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那我們要罰誰所以事實上所謂的不持續噪音裡面的定義啊所謂的不持續的部分就是說它已經發生過一次然後兩次三次然後大家造成非常大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4047.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4066.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
譬如說半夜三更有人唱歌那這個部分一般公益大廈的管委會他也必須要來做這個有效的協調那如果你都要動用到警察的話因為警察真正的一個業務其實就是在有關於刑事上面的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4067.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4093.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
跟社委法有關的話我們就是盡量有些非常熱心的這個警員願意來處理所謂的不持續噪音因為它已經造成人人民生活上面的安寧上很大的困擾但是如果每一件都需要來警察來出門來處理這個事情的話我是覺得說確實是有很大的困擾這個要跟委員報告一下所以我的意思是說因為這個規定是在這個內政部警政署它處理辦法裡面它所寫的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4093.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4118.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
就是說不持續性或不易測量的部分因為我們警政機關也沒有測量的儀式所以這樣的話人民就會覺得無所適從所以是不是請環境部這邊跟警政署環境部今天有派人來嗎是不是來解釋一下其實我這邊有個解答啦就是說一般民眾來講遇到噪音問題的時候其實也不是要報警也不是打環境部要打1999所以兩個部門可以同理合作是不是請環境部來講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4119.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4140.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
是委員好那就確實就是陳儒委員所說的針對這個噪音部分實際上我們有跟警政署還有還有內政部營建署有合作就針對可以量測的部分好持續性然後這部分由我們來處理那人和動物噪音這部分我們有分工在1999那邊有做一個分工人和動物部分會請警察 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4141.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4153.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那可以量測的部分全部有我們環保單位那我們實際上我們環保單位跟警政單位我們實際上有在跨部會合作這部分我們有持續在精進這些相關的一些可以處理的部分只要可以量測的部分全部都是由我們環保機關來做一個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4156.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4178.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
好 謝謝所以我的拜託就是說現在我認為社會法的部分就噪音防治的這個部分其實就是兩邊的標準是不一樣的可是民眾最想要得到的就是說他可以有個很快速比如說我已經被吵了三天睡不著了如果再找環境部來撤的時候其實有時候民眾跟民眾之間就會發生爭執所以這才是社會法會出動的情況先請警察先去做一個勸說的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4179.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4207.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
所以就是说要拜托这个不管是警政单位或环境单位大家要通力合作才能解决民众的问题那以现在的现行的这个法规来看处理办法来讲的话就变成说许多的责任都会因为讲白了就是说民众也不知道如何测量那警政单位也没有相关的测量的仪器就会通通都会到这个处理办法由警察单位来去做相关的处理可是它又没有相关的其实讲白了就是说它真正能裁罚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4207.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4229.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
用社會法來裁罰的案例用非常的少結果變成說到最後就是民眾苦不堪言或者是造成民眾整個長期之間因為它是一個不連續性不持續性的一個噪音造成這樣的問題我覺得這還是民眾所擔心的問題好 謝謝那最後再請教一個問題就是說有關於今天大家討論到很多的這個黃牛票的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4230.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4259.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
其實黃牛票的問題其實現在就警政單位來講其實現在還是用社委法來去做一個這個處理所以為什麼今天那麼多委員會提到黃牛票的取締範圍要加重因為如果沒有加重的話其實現在本席所擔心的是因為現在大家比如說看演唱會的時候外面很多警察單位的人員會去抓黃牛票這個動作其實我是不是可以請部長解釋一下他是依照什麼樣的法令去抓這些在販賣黃牛票的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4259.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4262.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我是不是可以請我們警政署來跟...好 可以 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4265.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4274.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
現在黃流票已經有定有專法了比方講像藝文的部分演唱會就是由文化部來做已經沒有再適用設置法的這個適用比如講像那個運動賽事像這些那個職棒的這些這個運動產業這一次專法那這個都分別在112年跟113年這兩個法都已經有這個立法的專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4291.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4301.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我們現在看到長江的朋友都已經應用到這個專法已經排除這個設置法的應用了所以沒有適用這個設置法了沒有用這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4306.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4325.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
因為設施法這個處罰大概就是比較輕那這一個包括文創法或者是運動產類的這個專法那它的處罰行政法跟刑事法我請教署長那現在比如說很多人在這個小巨蛋或大巨蛋外面賣黃牛票那警察單位執法的部分他是用什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4325.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4347.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
也是協助了一個角度那現在就是現在的主管之間是文化部那如果再到這個到各縣市的話就是文化局文化局他們有派人到現場是請警察單位去來做稽查還是文化部文化部會提供這些他們掃的到這些資料提供我們來做查集 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4348.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4364.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
沒錯 所以意思就是說當然我們是需要覺得是說當然警察人員都非常的辛苦可是如果沒有相關應的法令去應對比如說現在非常多型態的比如說演唱會或是一些車票或是現在更進一步的 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4365.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4387.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
比如說現在帶排這個醫院啊帶排隊的這些問題沒有用社會法的部分增加它的整個實用範圍讓警察同仁有一個執勤的一個動作的時候就變成說警察單位同仁是不是就我自己的猜想是他們只能去收集這樣的資訊然後交給相關單位的人員他沒有辦法現場就做一個制止的行為那這次我認為說就像我剛剛跟部長請教的就是民眾一開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4389.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4409.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
他因為一些法律上的一些問題他沒有辦法及時的取得他解決問題的一個方式就變成說要長時間等待可是時間常常就過了以後這個事情的嚴重程度也下降了所以這邊再拜託署長這是我提出來的跟你的請教是好 謝謝謝謝張志倫委員的諮詢下一位我們請麥玉珍委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4424.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4433.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
主席好 有請部長劉部長有請是 麥委員好部長好剛才我們法務部也說我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4436.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4460.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
法務部嗎 剛才那個是 不是不是 警政署署長對 目前我們文化部我們文化部的那個次長王時思他說從社會秩序維護法到文化創意產業發展法的立法以提供司法工具但事實上 黃流行為還是直續橫行 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4465.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4468.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
包含就是無兌價票券還有我們國慶的時候的活動票還有演唱會的證票也被大家販售 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4478.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4503.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
所以請問目前是否考慮如日本模式張黃牛票一例列為無銷票並加強檢舉制度或加倍的漲金修法的方向是否是加入就是依圖加價和公開陳列以及違法的標準因為剛才你有講有別的但是還是一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4504.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4520.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
委員這個部分是不是由主管機關來回答這個到底有效票或沒效票這應該有主管現在這部分的主管機關就是在文化部如果說剛才是文創的部分是由他們來做一個說明會比較比較清楚他們現在是主管機關對所以說我們覺得就是說有這個法但是還是一樣被騙所以我們是說是不是考慮進來是你決定還是部長決定誰來回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4534.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4536.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
這應該文化部來回答 事業主管機關好請來文化部有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4549.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4572.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那報告委員現在的話有關於像藝文表演票券我們現在就是規範在文化創意產業發展法裡面那第十條之一那裡面針對藝文表演票券如果你是以超過票面金額或定價販售者那我們可以就是來處以罰還那這邊販售這個部分它不以售出為必要就包含是將票券上架或是陳列兜售的行為都是在這個處罰的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4575.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4580.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
對所以我們知道啊但是因為就是還是一樣有這個亂象所以我們才要請教說是不是可以考慮跟日本一樣的模式我們有一個機制還有漲金所以讓大家可以去檢舉還有說他有依圖加價所以我們才要提出社會秩序維護法第64條嘛所以我們才希望說我們在這邊去 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4602.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4606.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
不是文化部所以我們這裡要去做這件事情是可不可以不是說文化部來說明他們的罰款但是不好嘛罰款沒有罰到重點沒有罰到痛點才會產生這些問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4618.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4633.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我的建議就是現在黃牛已經有專法在做試用如果說有一些過亂不准是應該從專法這邊來做修訂因為設置法現在是沒用了你現在黃牛一逮到是用文創法的來做這個法沒用沒有辦法修所以說現在我們修 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4638.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4655.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
不是修是修文創法來修來規範黃牛現在抓到黃牛沒有用設置法來適用現在用文創法比如講像這個演唱會都會適用文創法你抓到黃牛處罰是用文創法不是用設置法 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4655.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4672.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我們希望說今天討論可以加入 如果你覺得這樣子的話我們是 文創這邊他們有沒有修所以我們是針對我們今天有在修扎法的部分我報告一下 這簡單的一個道理就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4674.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4678.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
文創法對於黃牛的加價因為我們今天要問文創文創他們也是就是講一講沒有達到這樣子的效果啦所以我們希望說這個部分你們兩個部會來去研議看是用哪一個法去修最有效不是說因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4694.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4698.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
我們的文化部不在這邊 你在講這個 因為時間有限這個我希望你們兩個部會來去討論看要怎麼去修第二個我要問的是說我們剛剛提到的就是除了黃牛票券以外現在我們就是廣大的就醫民眾也是這個全醫也是醫療的黃牛目前民眾網路啊或者LINE的社團都有去說 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4724.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4733.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
戴掛號這也不是新鮮的事情也影響到真正需要就醫的權利所以我們要請教政府是否針對這個有具體的計畫或者立法的方向來阻止醫療掛號的黃牛以我們是否支持此類就是代購啊營利啊或者這個行為納入罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4749.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4764.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
這個部分可以再請教你嗎不要再問文化部了這個醫療的部分就是衛福部這應該是他們的主管的這個相關的一個主管機關比如講像急診室的這個暴力啊這是由衛福部來做一個主管要明定在醫療法裡面來做訂定我們才要說要去要設立法的方向有去罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4771.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4773.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
你就說他們的主責 別人不對啊所以我們希望說我們要在這邊就是因為他們沒有管理好也他們的主責單位他們也沒有做好才會大家跟我們去檢舉希望我們修法嘛所以我們在這邊才說如果他們沒達到監督我們這邊是不是有什麼方向來納入罰款或者修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4801.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4808.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
不要去講他們了,他們就是因為沒辦法,才來問你去修法嘛所以我希望的我們要提出,我們就覺得說我們今天有來修法提出你們沒有認同,你們要提出說有哪一個有效的不是說沒有提出又沒有提出有效的,都說別人,別人怎麼樣,別人怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4826.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4842.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
如果別人怎樣可以的話我們就不用修法了嘛第三題因為噪音的問題我們也是在2021年起我們的聲音照相執行已經就是在這已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4843.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4847.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
載出就超過一萬四千件但是那個照應罰款還是民眾就是大家都改造車啊照應啊什麼的就是讓我們我們人民就是無法入眠所以呢我們環境部雖然施法了由三千六提高到一萬八 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4864.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4872.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
但是實際的效果如何 我們必須就是保持這樣子的態度嗎還是說我們警政署是否就是同步廣充執行的設備還有加強我們的警員的專業能力所以我們是否支持我們噪音的擾鈴的納入我們社會秩序的維護低時 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4890.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4914.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
72條的取締的條件這個施刷應該是在你這邊的吧不是別人的事,是你的事這個剛剛那個委員有問過,就是噪音的部分應該有分持續性跟不持續性有分別是還是特別法的噪音這個管制法是優於這個設置法那另外比方說車的這個噪音也有交通道路 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4915.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4941.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
道路交通管理處罰條例的這個適用那我想這個都是一個一個是主軸的一個是配角今天這個討論大部分有主管機關大概是主角警察機關是配角要互相合作啦所以有互相合作才找你來說明嘛是不是要支持這個條款納入嘛但是這個如果法條的適用是以特別法又於普通法啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4943.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4971.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
所以你支不支持支不支持支不支持我們把這個納入到72條的考慮我不是我是支持就是使用那個特別法就是原有的主稠的這個法律來做適用如果說你要再做加強規範有特別法來修訂還是這邊不足你來提嘛對不對你要提出啊我們主管機關也可以提案也可以持修法的不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4973.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4989.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
所以說真的啦因為昨天我也問部長事實上我聽說啦不知道是不是啦聽說部長下令只要賣一針提的案或者提的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4990.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5004.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
一律不處理沒有這回事所以我聽說但是如果不是的話沒有這回事我就希望說我們新住民的基本法的新住民發展署 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5005.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5018.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
趕快去執行還有我們現在提的法你也沒有同意也沒有提出你可以說這個不好我們要不要增加或者修正因為我們找來就是希望達成共識嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5021.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5025.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所以說我們希望說我們覺得不好或者是說增加或者在哪裡我們事先要提出這個要去審查這個法案我們就要來去講了不要在這邊再來說誰的責任不是你的職責這個也不好這個不行了怎樣我們這樣子沒辦法達成共識啊我們希望我們未來我們是雙方提案達成這個效果才不會浪費大家的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5050.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5055.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
好 謝謝我們主席 謝謝好 謝謝麥立正委員的諮詢 下一位我們請王美惠委員諮詢主席我們請保定部長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5071.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5077.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
今天要討論社會秩序法 我覺得是抱怨抱害每一項都要做 每一項都要去合作在這個過程當中 本市府先要幫你探討幾天內 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5094.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5097.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
他本身也跟你談論過說你做得不錯,表現不錯,讓沖頓可以更多吃的結果在這幾天的時候,有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5108.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5113.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
有心態,他走下去人生道,在那裡走走走,去選擇他的理念,他的想法,結果沒理由說,沒幾個人而已,就走一半了說,他違反秩序法,結果在這個過程當中,我所了解的,包括數中也好,報中也好,我感覺應該是不曾因人而異啦, |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5137.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5139.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
因為全台灣的檢察非常辛苦,但是在這個過程中我看,我們都有違反嗎請部長回答還是書長來回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5157.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5169.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
四月十日早晨八點多就是有110通報在那個金融路有團體使用擴音器妨礙安寧但是有妨礙安寧所以我們的董事去處理的時候就發現在那裡做演講他有勸導 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5174.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5183.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
他勸導啦 勸導沒聽 勸導沒聽啦所以被社交媒體代表查很多所以不是你聽我說 代表企業市長可以不用走沒有啦 現在就是這樣就是說他這個來走是用勸導 他沒有跟他的職業運作是用警告他的走就要有警告 命理解散 要制止啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5203.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5221.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我們只是勸導而已 口頭也可以讓他看到說這個牌子可以勸導因為這個勸導也不會形成法律上的一個效果就是不會做處罰啦 沒形成法律上的形式市長我當然知道不會處罰什麼我只是要跟你談到的說 因為不要讓我們的檢察動員為難啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5229.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5235.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我們要一窮一條邊,一樣的道路,一樣的法律去走不會因為沒有一樣的地方,又沒有一樣的做法因為我們說實在,之前也看到我們台北市的市長,你們的做法跟他現在,尤其他站的地方,不是不能進去的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5257.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5260.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
如果像你們這樣說的話,是未來後面要選舉,如果愛家愛戶要去拜訪的,都要去申請喔!因為拜訪的本身的好選人,跟他本身的志工這樣走,都不是五六的啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5274.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5277.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
師父我是要跟你說因為這個社會的禍害我也認同說如果太大聲插到人應該是要去勸導這我認同可是不要讓百姓認為說跟做官可以這樣跟我們百姓去站的地方不是管制的不是不能進去的那是人性道 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5301.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5304.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
因為我認為我們要做警察後面的護盾 不能讓他為難在這裡面 我也知道你們負上的辛苦 黃牛配合也要找人 運動裁券也要找人 現在什麼醫療 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5322.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5332.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
的票券還沒找,我要來請教我們的單位醫療票券是什麼來回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5342.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5343.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
衛生福利部代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5371.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5374.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
比較像是我委託你用我的名字對嘛 現在我就是要跟你們說醫療的票券的訊號我委託這間我還自己站好就不要去大庭病院看了因為有很多醫生你如果看不到但是他有現場說限制20個去看但是我去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5394.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5398.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我提醒他們,以前如果7點起的時候,不是他們走,而是他們如果要看,還有什麼待過後,還要拿健保卡給他們在當場的因為以前,是不是我們會去找好嗎?譬如20個、20個大在那裡嘛現在是到你要找的時候,就要有健保卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5424.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5426.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
是不是這樣?對,委員是這樣,沒有錯對嗎?因為我覺得問一個單位都一樣做得不好,我們就去找一個單位去改進好事 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5439.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5442.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
因為本市在這裡也覺得說你這個醫療的票券的薪會讓人產生什麼什麼的有的醫美跟一個十張可以上兩張跟幾張可以也有可能是這樣所以在這個報酬報案的裡面部長我就是要跟你說我們非常辛苦像黃牛票啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5468.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5470.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
要聽NC有話,我們也要合作,前面這兩天,前面我們又收過了,在文化部也收過了那個運動票券,我們也在教育部收過了,是不好的,我們要在專法裡面,怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5492.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5496.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
不說實在,最近的演唱會,如果沒有這兩天大家的發表、大家的手法,有這麼多人可以買我們的問題是出在哪裡?有時候我真的買,但是臨時我都沒辦法去看沒辦法去看的當中,我會自己上網去買這要如何處理?這也是有的,沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5520.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5521.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
所以我們是應該讓不好的、我們想不好的繼續處理才對可以讓北省的立委覺得這個黃牛票是非常惡質這我認同,但在這兩天的經濟,我們的黨人有想過才對你看現在,包括張學友來,包括什麼人 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5545.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5549.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
一定是很好,但是很好的當中,我們有需要再去文化部,如何讓它轉化,繼續讓它加強下去,這才是最重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5560.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5569.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
是 感謝委員的指導啦法律本來因為都有檢討到整整的空間但是我也很認同說有這個目的事業主管機關包括文化部或是教育部他們有定專化在後我們站在的近景上面是幫他協助但是你現在如果所有的部門都轉播到關燈來社會秩序維護法有時候會變成好像往後退那有經濟的空間啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5587.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5607.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
最近這兩年因為有專法的關係啊其實處置上反而好一點所以我是覺得說不要再回來我們這個社會秩序維護法所以我們才會很主張說是不是社違法他有三年才剛剛開始適用三年讓他有一定的穩定性那我們有一些需要精進的空間我們會提供給目的失業主管機關來做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5608.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5621.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那委員剛有垂詢到有關於個別的就是警員在用集會遊行法對於這個舉牌的這個制止的部分那我想我們在這段期間裡面的處置就是說第一個他有沒有違反交通啦不要動了交通 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5624.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5638.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
因為極有法它有比較嚴格一點點的限制盡量不要用這樣的方式造成比較多的困擾但是我們要非常謝謝警員他一定是有其他的一個顧慮會認為說用極有法來做制止的這個動作或做其他的勸導的方向這個我們永遠有檢討的空間也是一樣所有的這些聚眾活動都有一定的法源基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5649.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5662.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那法源基礎呢請我們的警員在第一線要處理的時候呢他通常都有碰到不同的這個適用上面的困擾那但是我們都會用這個比較法律上面能夠橫平的觀點來看待那請委員能夠多多指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5666.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5671.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
感謝柏廷會的回答,本席覺得我們有法要好好去質詢,要去執行例,不然有法定在那,不去執行例,這樣就不好了,以上謝謝王美惠委員的質詢,下一位我們請張宏祿召委質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5703.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5720.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
好主席齁哎呦 布丁被你騙在那好好 董事長有請啊來 我在執行前 我想先那個今天有各部會的代表的 請先舉手一下來 各部會各部會的代表啊 請先舉手一下好你看 好多隻手喔好 請放下齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5733.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5751.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我為什麼要特別先這樣子你知道嗎這個社會秩序維護法牽扯到的部會真的非常多啦非常多而且有一些法令各部會其實都有訂專法都已經在處理了是不是啊各部會你們可以點頭或什麼就好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5758.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5777.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我幫他們回應了 有了沒有 我有在看他們在點頭了啊對不對因為各部會其實也有訂專法在處理那我想請問一下部長或是這個署長如果這些業務量又回來你們這邊那你們覺得你們有這個辦法去處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5784.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5813.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
真的沒辦法剛剛委員也講這是包山包海我覺得已經特別法已經有規範就用適用特別法來做適用那設置法是一個普通法所以現在你現在去做執行也是適用的這些效果是特別法適用這些特別法那這個設置法是一個普通法如果有不足的話才是在設置法那我是覺得警察工作真的要讓他專精不然每一樣都包山包海做每一樣都會做不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5814.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5839.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
沒有錯而且喔如果都回來這裡喔不是你們派人出去之後他如果違反你們還要要不要開單你們還要處理很多後續的行政作業對沒有錯是不是是啊這個比你派警員出去你後續的這些文書作業你反而更需要更多的人力吧沒有錯沒有錯嗎好那我們從這次的修法我也看 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5841.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5865.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我真的覺得有一點奇怪你知道嗎這個可能各位同仁大家要思考一下在各部會裡面的專法裡面他都有罰款了那我們今天很多的修法裡面你罰款比人家本來的罰都還少你去訂這個有什麼意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5867.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5884.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我不直接講哪個委員的法案啦但人家明明其他的法律裡面他罰的錢都比較多那我們今天又來修這個法結果罰的比較少 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5886.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5909.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
這我不知道意義何在 這個是要累死你們警察我來報告一下 你現在修的這個法管確實是比那個專法少所以現在逮到黃牛也不會用設置法來採法 是用那個專法來採啊對啊 所以那個專法 你比方講像文創的那個那個是五十倍的一個法 幾十萬欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5910.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5926.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那這些你如果增加到那個設置法頂多是增加我看那裡面有增加到三萬多塊你沒辦法是用設置法還是還是用專法來罰署長我就是要問你這個那如果回到這個設置法之後有這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5929.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5938.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那民眾如果報案如果什麼那你們警察要不要法要不要開判沒辦法用設置法法抓到的話還是用那個專法來處罰沒辦法用設置法處罰你還是要回去原來的啊回去原來的專法處罰對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5945.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5960.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那所以我就點出了這一個不是很奇怪的一個修法嗎這個真的是多此一舉耶我不知道署長你們整個的看法所以我們看法就是建議不修正建議不修正啦我們看法就是這剛剛部長已經有報告就是這個建議不修正因為你修的話也沒有用啊修的話沒辦法適用啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5975.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5999.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
不是我發現啦齁有看出來這個問題的也不是只有我啊是很多人都有發現了這個問題啊那我們如果這樣子我真的是我覺得啦這個法如果通過齁就是累死你們警察而已全國的警察會痛死啦報告委員通過也沒辦法適用啦通過還是適用專法通過也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6000.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6026.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
擺盜的黃牛還是用專法因為現在沒有用設置法比如想像現在的這個比較前的小巨蛋的演唱會啦或者是大巨蛋的這些的那個棒球啦都分別有這個文創法跟運動賽事的專法在適用這些黃牛都有適用也沒有在適用設置法你設置法再定個再多幾萬兩萬三萬那也沒辦法適用設置法還是適用專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6028.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6048.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我當然知道是適用尊法所以我說是類似你們警察而已啊你們警察也無所適從啊是不是啊如果大家要就責又說警察誒這個設置法裡面有你們警察又不處理外界不了解法律的內容沒有錯啊是類似你們警察而已啊對啊啊而且喔你剛講的那些還是部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6049.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6070.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
阿如果噪音防治法咧一樣啊那個狀況是相同的不是喔那個案件可能比演唱會多上千倍上萬倍喔沒有錯那你怎麼處理我們現在的這個狀況大概就是兩個單位就是環保跟警察嘛那現在有一些就是警察的部分現在平常講啦警察到場去處理噪音大概都是只有嵌倒啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6071.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6084.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
都只有欠的而已啦那你如果要法的話真正要法都是在噪音管制法的環保單位他有儀器我們警察也沒辦法說透過這個聽這個是屬於噪音或怎樣只是說你這個停止所以這個等於是 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6086.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6104.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
如果民政法聽就聽不聽的話也沒有辦法因為也沒有這些良策的這一期沒有錯啊但如果又回到這個法裡面人才要不要處理要不要去要去啊啊對啊啊你要去又沒辦法辦任何事所以如果說未來如果要更建立我也強力建立要在專法裡面去做修訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6105.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6132.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
對啦從專法 從噪音管制法的專法去做修訂才辦了涵括全部我舉這幾個例子是說齁如果這樣子齁這個法今天修了的話齁不僅達不到目的啦累死我們警察弟兄啦而且最主要的是你到時候執法的時候沒有一個標準你會讓警察弟兄被人家罵這個是我擔心的啦 署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6133.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6145.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
目前如果以噪音的這個部分一定是沒有標準因為每個同仁去的聽了到底是不是噪音所以現在的這個裁決大概都是只有勸導我們沒有這些應用設置法來做處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6147.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6169.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
現在如果真的要開單在地方政府它是環保局派人去量測什麼什麼的然後有車子去那才能夠真正的第一線馬上罰然後那個警察區是沒有辦法的我舉這個例子是說如果噪音也要警察管你們警察反正我每天都報案都有噪音警察光這個警察就 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6170.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6187.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
其他事都不用做了啦所以我還是覺得啦這個要不要修這個法大家要仔細的想一下我個人也認為修是多此一舉沒有用的啦好 謝謝啦好 謝謝好 謝謝張宏祿 趙偉的諮詢下一位我們請黃婕委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6199.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6212.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
好謝謝主席我們請部長跟署長劉部長張署長有請因為其實剛剛很多委員都講得很清楚了那我在這邊先請教署長啦署長知道黃牛的定義是什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6213.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6220.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
黃牛就是說你那個買票之後會加價加價轉售給他人賺取這中間的這個這個這個價差這個就是基本的黃牛好謝謝署長其實說得很明確黃牛是要買票之後有加價的行為就是你從中有獲得盈利嗎你有圖利嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6234.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6258.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
可是在這個目前涉違法裡面我看到的要件很可能會造成說你該罰的罰不到但是不該罰的很可能誤罰怎麼說呢因為其實二手票的流通我們並沒有禁止例如說我今天生病有事不能去那我在網路上我想要請人家去收購但是低於市價或者是說看有沒有折價賣或者是原價賣這個有這是黃牛嗎不是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6262.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6266.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
這個應該不是 就是說你的原價或低價的話 這個是沒辦法處罰的沒錯 這個是因為黃牛的定義非常明確所以當初我們在修文創法 在修運發條例的時候裡面的條文是怎麼寫的 必須要超過票面金額或者是定價的售價 要超過這個才可以去處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6286.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6306.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那可是在社會法裡面怎麼寫的現在大家要修的是說意圖轉售圖利那意圖轉售圖利包括的範圍很可能不只是高於票券那如果他低於票券他可能先低價去收購那我再轉售但是轉售的金額還是低於定價低於市價可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6307.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6331.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
不清楚我想這個就是定義上比較沒有清楚沒錯所以反而社委法裡面的定義跟要件非常的不明確很可能我在臉書上只是因為說原價五千塊的演唱會的票券那我因為我臨時不能去我轉售那中間可能加了這個轉匯款的三十塊那這樣是不是有可能會被拿去檢舉然後很可能拿去誤罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6332.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6355.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
都有可能都有可能就是因為他的內文的這個要件非常不明確所以我擔心的是說到時候有可能變成這些可能你認為這個是不是有可能他只是在網路上轉賣而已你就全部都跑去檢舉那變成說到時候社會法放到這邊然後大家還是要分回各個主管局官去認定說這個到底有沒有違反黃牛 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6356.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6375.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
所以他最後還是會回歸文創法回歸運發條例啊再者其實文創法跟運發條例裡面的罰金的罰則是很重的耶五十倍五倍到五十倍也就是說我剛剛說五千塊他要罰五萬到二十五萬可是在社會法裡面罰多少一萬八 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6377.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6394.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
然後像這是現在最重的他們只加到三萬八就再怎麼罰都不會比原本這個文創法和運發條例還重啊那也就是說真的有心要犯法的黃牛你又視為法反而是清代他了 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6394.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6417.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那最後不管怎麼樣主管機關都是例如說演唱會一定是文化部嘛然後如果是運動賽事一定是這個教育部對所以這個主管機關也都很明確然後要件也很明確了罰則也很重了所以怎麼樣我們討論下來都知道說那我們今天到底在這裡修這個色違法是做什麼用 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6419.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6448.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
所以我最大的疑惑是這個我不知道我們在今天修完這個第一個罰不到第二個罰比較輕第三個誤罰別人所以今天審完我不知道說我們在社會法裡面要去處理黃牛這件事情到底用意為何所以我覺得像橫路剛剛委員講的很可能變成是多此一舉然後白忙一場我擔心的是這個啦所以如果真的要處理黃牛我當然希望說現在第一個演唱會票卷已經有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6448.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6468.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
第二個運動賽事也有了那其他針對醫療或是其他遊樂相關的更多範圍的我們就訂更多的專法今天衛福部也在這裡如果是針對醫療的衛福部是不是要訂專法處理這個如果是有醫療票券轉售變成是類似黃牛的行為這個還要去釐清啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6469.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6498.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
然後其他遊樂票券如果是交通部底下類似觀光署管轄的一些遊樂票券那這個交通部可以去討論是不是應該有專法來處理這件事情我非常痛恨黃牛我要先講因為就是網路上真的太多這種黃牛我收到超多陳情再加上我這邊有很多年輕人是喜歡看演唱會喜歡看賽事的然後常常來跟我說黃牛大家都很討厭所以我們才訂了文創法 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6500.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6527.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
運發條例那現在所以我不知道說我們今天要回來討論這個社違法的用意到底為何那最後我還是要講一下這個跟騷的部分因為其實今天除了說討論黃牛還有處理跟騷嘛那這個跟騷如果要改這個文字說無正當理由跟追他人改成無正當理由跟蹤或騷擾他人我不知道說這邊署長知不知此 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6529.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6543.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個部分我是覺得就是已經也有專法在做執行所以我們也建議做適用專法來做一個依據所以如果真的有類似這個根梢的行為最後還是會回歸根梢法處理是嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6545.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6572.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
是的所以我在這邊也是再次強調既然都已經有跟騷法了我不知道說我們社會法這邊修這個的用意為何因為最後開罰的依據一定還是跟騷法裡面這個很明確的定義嗎包括跟騷法裡面的定義是什麼呢就是必須要反覆或持續的跟蹤他人然後必須跟性或性別相關所以這個要件都要非常的明確然後有這樣的專法來開罰這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6576.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6602.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
當事人對嗎對所以在這邊我認為說今天的這相關的修法看似是沒有什麼必要啦那其實該開法的依據也都有了那當然我還是希望大家可以針對這個黃牛的行為我們可以做更完善的規範包括我剛剛講的衛福部交通部如果還沒有相關專法的也可以考慮來擬定好以上建議謝謝好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6604.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6606.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
謝謝黃婕委員的質詢 下一位我們請徐玉珍委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請劉部長 張署長劉部長 張署長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6626.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6649.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
徐委員好 部長好 還有署長好部長 我星期一詢問您去年的12月20號 青鳥在立法院外集結那一些民進黨的立委 毀損公務 叫說青鳥衝進立法院我當時問你的是 請問你有沒有把他們移送你回答我說 因為立法院不是禁制區 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6650.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6667.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
我當然知道立法院不是禁制區我問你的是有沒有把他們移送可是你回答我立法院是不是禁制區如果不是狀況外就是你在包庇誰我想請教署長12月20號衝突後你們有沒有把誰移送法辦除了宗嘉斌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6667.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6696.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
好 10月20號那個這一場是由台北市政府警察局來做一個執行那因為這個每一場的這個群眾活動都會跟現場的這個這個市政來做處理那這裡面看起來就是好 請問除了宗家兵委員你們還移送了誰這個他們檢視的這一些的一個相關的一個市政是沒有在做其他繁重其他的這個人員所以只移送宗家兵委員一個人嗎對宗家兵委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6699.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6720.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
請部長看一下影片我們是講道理的人但是當有人不講道理的時候當有人不講道理的時候我們也不要沉默然後再來 請各位保持體力今天 今天的時間還是漫長至少看到了就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6722.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6726.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
我們沒有要來這裡跟警察打架我們沒有要來這裡跟任何人起肢體衝突今天最高的和平原則最高的和平目標處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6746.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6755.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
剛剛影片中你看到破壞護欄有好幾位喔那為什麼只移送宗嘉斌委員一人其他人呢那依照劉部長的標準的話應該是全部都要移送啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6756.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6763.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
沒有 這個部分我們會依照市政再來做滾動式的一個檢討從去年12月20到現在從去年12月20到現在 莊家兵委員都已經出庭過一次了你們到現在還要滾動式的檢討 了解現場的狀況這影片網路上到處都是好 您再看一下這個照片 就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6780.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6803.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
除了宗家立委員破壞柵欄之外還有不少的民進黨的立委也協助青鳥推倒護欄要衝進立法院那請問一下署長這樣有沒有違法那這個部分因為要衡量現場的這個狀況那我等你看一段影片你衡量一下民進黨立委到立院外不斷教授要青鳥進入院內場面一度混亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6809.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6827.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
跨上柵欄 一個右勾拳青鳥把員警架住突破第一道防線青鳥跟警方拉扯柵欄用跨的抽不了後方有人踩在椅上像直接一個馬步跨過去甚至另一頭有人試圖用繩子想突破 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6828.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6857.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
好我們現在看到這段影片很多的民進黨的委員都在叫說協助青鳥衝進立法院現場還有出現青鳥勒住遠景還有破壞柵欄衝撞遠景的狀況這樣有沒有違法那我想這個是構成要件跟程度的問題就是說這樣子還沒有構成要件整個的一個狀況是不是跟這個有沒有達到已經就是這個整個構成要件那我們想會跟事實的狀況來做一個認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6858.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6860.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那請問一下當天警政署有沒有移送守謀 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6862.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6891.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那天沒有沒有沒有為什麼沒有那些召集的人的一個說真的這個狀況沒有單獨的一個首謀一個情形單獨的那一天的申請那一天申請是有申請核准的一個主要的主辦人但是可以衝撞嗎可以破壞公務嗎可以叫說大家衝進立法院嗎那我想這個因為群眾活動的樣態非常多這是會衡量現場的這個狀況來做一個處置那所以署長你現在準備怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6893.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6921.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
已經從去年12月20到現在那我想就是還是我們還是尊重台北市政府檢察局的這個根據這個現場的狀況來做一個處置因為部長我想在受訪的時候有提到說在我們4月17號當天在場的全部應該都要移送甚至部長也受訪的時候也提到說他會請警方將守謀朱立倫主席跟教育界委員這個移送那請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6922.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6924.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
部長您有沒有對媒體說這些話 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6926.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6954.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
謝謝委員的關心我想委員可能沒有了解我在對媒體受訪時候的全文的部分我在開始講的時候就有提到說我們按照集會遊行法裡面的相關規範那如果你有觸犯到集會遊行法的相關規範的話我們按照規範來執行那你 你有沒有說我會請警方移送首謀朱立倫主席跟謝榮介委員這個是在不過局部長你知道嗎你已經是有史以來第一個內政部長指揮員警辦案的 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6956.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6959.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
您是第一個報告委員我剛剛有提到我們是根據集會遊行法那集會遊行法的主管機關是內政部但是檢察官沒有這個職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6971.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6974.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
您內政部長不該下這種指導棋我沒有下指導棋我是根據原先他們所提供的事項來對媒體所回應的你怎麼可以說要要求警方這個將守謀這個是斷章取義 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6987.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6995.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
這沒有斷章取義 這是你自己受訪的那所以你就說錯了沒有斷章取義嗎所以在這個部分我希望署長你要積極偵辦去年12月20號的這個青鳥衝撞立法院還有一些民進黨委員教唆他們衝進立法院不要只有半藍不半綠因為現在的標準大家看起來都是半藍不半綠請問署長可以嗎好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7018.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7020.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
好 謝謝徐益臻委員 下一位我們請黃建斌委員質詢好 謝謝主席 我們有請內政部 劉部長劉部長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7037.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7059.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
部長好 部長今天我們針對那個思維法的修法就在人立委有提出的修法的方向讓除了針對原本的第9條條文有關這個英雅人的用詞應該予以修正外另外包括跟民生生活息息相關的一些面向的一些修正像是黃流票還有噪音 這種是移民用案被審才檢定的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7060.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7079.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那我想這兩個立委也認為應該要修法納入違規的樣態並且要加重罰則讓我們執行單位能夠有更有力道那不過本席從內政部報告裡面看到只有好像就有同意修正英雅人的用詞其他像是什麼針對黃油票啊 噪音加重罰則啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7080.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7092.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
內政部都是不建議修正那本席認為內政部這樣幾個說法其實跟民眾實際上的感受跟需求是有落差的那接下來就幾個例子跟部長來討論首先我們針對黃羅配套部分在2023年的時候我們有通過這個叫文化創意產業發展法還有運動產業發展條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7101.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7120.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
雖然都已經針對這個票券的販售進行規範保障民眾不管是參加演唱會或是看這個運動賽事的這個公平的權益減少黃牛的這個猖獗但隨著高齡化社會的來臨醫療需求不斷的增加現在現在連醫療過後的黃牛票也越來越嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7122.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7148.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
你可以Google一下你在Google上搜尋代掛號三個字你就發現一堆有的沒的的網站就連這個知名的網站上面都有而且直接明碼標示你要在哪一間醫院掛號要收多少錢那舉例來看有一個叫做KK代掛號的網站上面什麼都有包括大型的醫院 診所 中醫 國術館這邊連什麼 動物醫院都可以代掛號 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7149.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7176.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那因此我們希望在這我們64條條文裡面現行的條文裡面將醫療行為也納入在裡面就希望能夠減少黃牛的猖獗我們不想要看到真正有需要看病的病人被排擠那所以本席也會連署因為這樣連署我們邱委員的提案將醫療帶過號的黃牛行為也納入罰則就在同時也加重罰則維護我們國人公平就業的這個權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7179.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7194.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那不過我們在內政部的報告裡面看到就建議不修法了理由是因為要回歸各票卷主管機關依法管理查處那本席認為現在目前針對黃油票的樣態雖然是各機關都有他專業認定跟權責不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7197.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7211.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
部長我們現行的這個社會法64條裡面他就有針對運輸然後遊樂票券的黃牛行為進行裁罰那因此本來就有的社會法裡面的東西我們就希望能夠把醫療的這個醫療帶掛的這個行為能夠加強來防範喔那 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7216.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7238.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
目前我們衛福部裡面並沒有這個法則所以才希望在社會維護法裡面加進去然後至少先維護我們民眾的權益獲得保障所以本是希望身為內政部身為我們社會法的主管機關應該是要站在維護社會秩序的立法精神幫民眾來守護權益不是把這件事給他們保護希望這部分內政部可以好好來檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7239.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7266.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那第二個部分我們就針對72條 也是很多委員提到72條的部分我們常常在社會新聞裡面看到的類似的情形就是酒醉鬧事 聲譽喧嘩 民眾說不曉打電話報警然後警方到現場去規勸開罰然後這一次我們國民黨委員提出的修法裡面希望在這樣的行為上加重罰則讓我們員警執勤的時候力量能夠更強一點我們希望能夠在既有的法源上 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7267.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7282.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
加強力道減少民眾破壞安寧的這個行為不過我們在報告裡面要看到就是一般民眾的檢舉照一旦見可以自行測量音量並記錄提供裁罰機關作為證據那內政部自己也說環保機關認定標準必須 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7286.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7305.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
持續不間斷兩分鐘以上才可以適用噪音管制法持續兩分鐘以上喔他如果沒在兩分鐘這就沒辦法喔你的那個噪音法就沒有辦法管理他喔那另外更重要的是說部長那個我不知道部長家裡面有沒有車輛分配的這個機器沒有我們也沒有啊我們要怎麼檢查民眾要怎麼檢查對不對所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7311.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7339.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
而且最重要是不知道那個噪音一定是連續性的嗎它會固定一分鐘叫一次一分鐘叫一次或三十分鐘叫一次嗎這個也不容易認定啦那民眾真的會求助無門其實本席也會常常收到這樣民眾的電話我也知道這樣子其實對我們員警的期望真的會增加所以我們希望這些東西真的要加重要不然這樣沒有辦法認定的時候民眾又求助無門那民眾遇到這種事該怎麼辦我想如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7341.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7363.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
如果說民眾要執行修正跟環保機關檢舉這個一個晚上都不用睡了在那裡插就不用睡了所以作為我們72條的修正條文我們內政部在這個回應上本是也不以為然我再次強調針對喝酒鬧事 聲樂喧嘩的這種擾民的行為72條條文目前是第一線執行嚴謹很重要的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7364.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7391.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
那我們也在保護民眾的這個關鍵的法令現在修法的方向就是要加重加重他的罰則希望能夠減少類似的情形發生而不是我們並沒有要增加新的法讓我們的員警增加的請勿我們是希望在現有的法令上能夠加重罰則減少這些擾民的行為的發生這樣希望能夠讓我們百姓能夠不用再受這些噪音干擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7392.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7412.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那這部分我希望內政部也能夠好好的來檢討那以上的質詢謝謝部長也謝謝署長也希望能夠來檢討這樣的法令的方向好謝謝黃建斌委員的質詢跟委員會報告待會在高金素美委員質詢完後我們休息三分鐘下一位我們請高金素美委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7423.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7435.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
謝謝召委 我先請文化部的副司長文化部副司長有請還有體育部的教育部的檢任視察還有教育部吳永明檢任視察有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7437.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7453.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
請問一下兩位你們現在有對黃牛有什麼專法簡單的說一下跟委員報告文化部這邊的話就是透過文化創意產業發展法第十條之一來執行黃牛的紡織的業務好那請問是如果抓到的話要怎麼懲處 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7455.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7484.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
目前的話大概是兩個部分第一個部分的話是民眾的檢舉那我們的話會去收集這一些資料之後透過縣市政府然後來做這個查核跟罰款然後再來還有利用不證方式也許是用一些城市的掃碼的方式那我們有跟售票平台這邊來做合作好所以就是文化部訂出了黃牛檢舉案件處理及獎勵辦法對不對但是你發現了沒有文化部你們是把責任推給地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7485.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7501.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
然後你們不協助 不統整 不介入換句話說 你們把一切責任就往下丟但是我們民眾熱血的檢舉 地方政府哀鴻遍野看一下你們現在的檢舉數9000多件的檢舉案 只有145件被罰然後你們裁罰的比例 僅僅只有1.5% |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7507.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7535.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
這個比例不叫執法是叫勸對檢舉請問一下副市長你們這樣的狀況是查證困難還是你們根本沒有人力來處理這個部分的話也請委員看因為有時候他的一些檢舉的資料確實就是可能他就是沒有一些票據9000多件你們只有處理145件再來還有當然還有一部分有一些也許不是屬於文創法那有多少件不是屬於文創法 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7537.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7554.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我這邊的比例大概有2000多件是不屬於文創法2000多件那我上面的資料僅僅登載的是1199件請問不屬於文創法是屬於南門法請問有一些是屬於體育票券我們就會請體育署這邊來做處理你們怎麼處理處理了嗎現在他說2000多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7564.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7592.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
兩千多件嘛對不對不屬於你們文化部的嘛對吧那屬於體育部的你們就給體育部好請問一下體育部因為我們現在從立法到現在總共接受的案件是422件你們只有422件可是剛剛剛剛他說有兩千多件有沒有包含這個422件因為有一部分是我們這邊直接受理的所以你們根本沒有橫向聯繫嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7595.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7600.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
你們如果街道不是文化部的業務你們有給體育部嗎 教育部嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7603.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7630.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
好所以你講的兩千多件有四百二十二件是屬於他的對吧那剩下的呢屬於誰兩千多件不完全全部都是體育生的那還有誰請問那當然有一些可能比方說也許是可能比如說蛋黃酥啊就是比較是高價商品的這個可能就真的不是我們這裡可以還有什麼嗎你現在舉例嘛現在我們立法委員就要試圖把這些不是的把它列出來啊然後大家讓大家知道啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7635.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7645.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那有一些可能也許就是像賽車啊然後或者是就是我剛剛說可能像是或是海外餐廳帶牌啊這樣子的案件所以就這兩種 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7648.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7665.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
其實種類是蠻多的但是可能最普遍的還是體育賽事你這樣子好不好我在這邊希望你把這些因為現在只有你們兩個部會有這個所謂的這個檢舉黃牛的部分嘛對吧其他部會應該沒有吧你們有專法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7667.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7684.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
沒有啊只有你們兩個啊所以今天為什麼我們要提這個在社會法裡面就是有一些絕大部分是沒有在你們這兩個部會去處理的嘛是嗎對不對副市長旅域部的檢任視察是好請你們回座謝謝請部長劉部長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7692.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7707.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
市長剛剛我們聽到好多委員在這邊講義正齒嚴都說很討厭黃牛可是我們發現事實上黃牛並沒有被消滅啊並沒有被消滅啊有這麼多啊那怎麼處理民怨一大堆啊請你告訴我該怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7709.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7735.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
報告委員在目前我看到的這個部分就是說我們要採取分流立法那您剛有特別垂詢包括文化部或是教育部他們有個別的法律就這個黃流票猖獗的部分他的罰則也好或是他的處罰的機制或是他的定義我們知道了但是剛剛我們看到了文化部他說有九千多件的案件檢舉他們處理的只有一百四十五件被罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7736.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7765.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那裁罰我們看到只有百分之1.5啊這個比例實在是差很多然後剛剛就問他了有那麼多件為什麼你們就處罰145件他說還有很多件2000多件不是屬於他們的然後屬於這個體育部的是有422件所以剩下來1000多件啊1000多件我們今天該怎麼處理所以今天為什麼我們委員會在社委法裡面提出來就是因為人民真的也覺得受苦啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7767.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7790.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
部長您覺得應該怎麼樣怎麼處理報告委員站在我們警政單位處理有關於社委法的部分呢我們幾乎都是以協助的立場那如果你目的事業主管機關他的處罰要件或者是說他接受檢舉的裁罰的要件沒有很明確的話他事後啊還是會衍生很多包括行政訴訟所以我們才會說所以我們說法才會說我們用檢舉的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7793.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7818.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
但是我們以這個社委法來講你要加重它的處罰應該不是我們的原意而是我們希望說不要讓這些黃牛的行為有猖獗的這個現象那黃牛的行為有猖獗的現象的話恐怕還是要很多跨部會包括民眾自己本身對於黃牛票是否因為這是買黃牛票大概大致上都是屬於這個商業的交易行為比較多 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7819.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7838.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
所以你要用這個行政裁罰的方式或用其他的這個刑法的方式來介入的話他的要件如果不明確呢我們後續還是要接受其他的這個機關上面包括司法單位的檢驗我想這樣子反而會置私欲焚這個不知道我不同意你的說法因為現在重視我們的兩部會他已經有了所謂的這個黃牛的那個專法然後要裁罰可是他還是有黃牛 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7848.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7862.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
所以你要回歸到人性善良的一面在目前來說已經是不可能的所以我們希望在這個社會法裡面目前沒有被規範到的趕快先規範當然如果未來有專法要處理這個部分我們會樂觀其成 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7864.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7870.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
所以我認為還是得要來處理好嗎 希望待會我們在討論的時候繼續討論過渡上面如果是屬於這個行政裁量就是說跨部會之間我們可以互相合作譬如說採取專案假設說現在有大型演唱會那它有什麼專案在源頭的管理包括的買賣或者是說不合法的買賣或者是網路上的黃流猖獗的部分我們先把這個源頭的管理先弄清楚以後那涉違法比較是屬於後端的查處 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7894.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7903.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我們不可能去介入這個演唱會或是運動賽事要不要開辦但是後端的查處的話如果純粹質疑我給他開罰單這樣就可以解決問題我覺得這樣子反而沒有辦法真的達到就是我們要遏止這個黃牛猖獗的這個現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7910.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7918.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
所以我們也會支持其他的部會包括不管說您剛有提到譬如說他剛有提到蛋黃酥是不是跟這個買賣交易餐廳的或是交通餐旅有關的是不是可以訂定專法的方式那我們設為法警察機關呢站在這個協助的角色來盡量來協助或後端的查處的部分所以嘛大家是要討論嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7933.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7947.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
不能夠說一下子去向其他委員說今天我們根本就不關係到社委法所以他覺得應該回到其他各部會訂定專法其實呢我不認為應該是這樣子啦現在黃牛的猖獗是真的非常的猖獗 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7948.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7971.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
這個的確是影響 網路上面有誰可以來去我覺得我們的警政單位應該是要來其中的一環 也必須加入嘛要不然剛剛文化部也好 體育部也好 他們也都講說他們很困難啊你們就直接交給地方政府對不對 副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7973.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7996.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
你們共同協定你們也沒有辦法有這個能力所以也就是說為什麼現在黃牛還是依然那麼猖獗我們訂了兩個專法還是那麼猖獗就是因為有非常多的細節的問題必須要中央各部會來一起來努力的所以今天我們才會提這個社委法所以我不同意其他的委員在這邊說的根本跟社委法沒有關係我不同意所以我的修正動議還有附帶決議我也有四個 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7999.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8016.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
要求第一個要比照文化創意產業發展法調高罰還的額度然後讓黃牛票賣一張可能要賠好幾倍這個部分是已經有了但是我們也希望在社會法裡面再訂然後來增設吹哨者的獎勵機制要鼓勵全民來檢舉然後全民來訪黃牛我覺得這是也是必須的 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8021.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8033.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
用地方上用這個全民的力量一起來遏止這個黃牛我覺得其實是應該有必要的第三個是以虛偽資料或其他不正式的方式利用電腦或其他相關設備的行為影響非常的嚴重這個應該要加重處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8039.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8061.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
第四個附帶決議要求編列專責的人力來調查黃牛不能夠再讓這個查證變成虛硬故事我想呢有了這個法的修正以及有這個附帶決議的這個修正我相信我們還可以補一些其他的不足的漏洞好嗎以上是我對於社會法的發言謝謝好謝謝高金素美委員的質詢我們現在休息三分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8538.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8541.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我們現在繼續開會請劉許廷委員發言謝謝主席 劉部長有請我們請部長委員好部長早安其實今天大家提這個社會秩序維護法的這些修正條文其實大家的想法不外乎就是就是要針對這些疑難雜症然後做出一些調整嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8566.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8569.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那其實本期看大部分的法條大部分都是增加罰則嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8570.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8598.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那當然在剛剛討論的過程中有很多人提到比如說叫法規禁核的問題比如說譯文的票卷體育的票卷現在有專法當初這些委員提案的時候可能都是同時提嘛大家就是希望要打擊黃牛初衷是如此所以從各個角度去提案那當然在這段時間的過程中這個體育的相關的條例過關了譯文相關的條例過關了那社會秩序維護法還有沒有必要把這些加進去我覺得有討論空間大家就可以思考一下會不會有法規打架的問題如果會 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8599.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8620.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
條文的內容要怎麼樣來做調整但是我想剛剛幾位委員質詢的內容裡面其實有提到其實社會秩序維護法就是不破網嘛以前大家都是基本上都是交給這個法條來處理但是隨著有越來越多的這個專法處理比如說剛剛有提到蘇巧慧委員有提到跟騷對不對跟騷法出來之後也不表示社會秩序維護法就失去功能嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8621.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8638.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
他還是有處理剩下來樣態的叫補破網的這樣相關的一個功能這我想部長剛剛也不會反對因為剛剛是有具體的數字去支撐說即便跟騷法上路之後社會法還是有檢舉還是有裁法所以表示這法還是有功能的啦所以我想不管是今天討論噪音討論黃牛票討論跟騷社會秩序違法都還是有這個補破網的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8643.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8664.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
所以我想在這樣子一個大框架下大家針對法條的內容跟法則來做討論跟補強它怎麼會是沒有意義的修法呢所以剛剛有些委員講說我搞不懂這個修法有什麼意義或者是為什麼今天大家要討論這個幹嘛不是這麼簡單的這是我覺得立場非常清楚要來表達一下部長你覺得我們今天這個修法是沒有意義的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8667.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8684.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
委員你這樣問我怎麼敢回答沒有意義我的意思是說我們在處理這個社會資訊維護法的時候像我們剛剛署長所說因為包山包海所以每一件事情都可以形成一個很大的一個討論圈那只是說要把它收攏變成說每個條文的討論案或是每個條文的文字上的敘述的話確實有困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8688.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8709.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
因為不能單純由內政部來處理你看我們今天有四五個部會一起來所以今天我們找了很多部會一起來開會的原因就是這樣嘛因為我們每一個部會來確認哪些地方是有專法的我可以用專法來優先哪些地方還需要靠社會秩序維護法來做普破網的功能就來處理我現在來舉例來交通部的代表有請交通部今天有來嘛對不對有謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8718.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8738.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
委員好你好那個剛剛有委員講說所有的黃牛票樣態都要立專法來處理那我們講比如說我在旅展買一個這個本來價值是一萬五千塊的一個住宿旅遊套票我在旅展買的時候就打對折對不對可能只要七千五我這個人買了之後可能買好幾張然後我在網路上賣一萬算不算黃牛票是 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8742.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8757.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
好像算對不對因為我取得的價格跟我賣出的價格我有圖利嘛大概就是黃牛票嘛對不對那比如說郵輪豪華郵輪型的船票同樣的狀況算不算黃牛票低價買高價賣就算嘛對不對那你們交通部要不要立專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8759.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8774.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
我說明一下現在我們在鐵路運輸的部分我現在看了報告裡面鐵路法裡面有講鐵路票券的黃牛票已經有規範了對不對但我剛剛講的啊旅宿的餐券或者是遊輪的船票有沒有轉法目前沒有對不對以後會不會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8780.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8799.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
因為剛剛有委員講說你們每個部會都要去立專法這樣是可以的嗎當然技術上可行啦但是我們每件事都要這樣搞那其實是各個部會都會累死嘛所以我才講今天討論的訊號當然有意義啊因為有些東西樣態嚴重比如說藝文票卷體育票卷樣態嚴重專門專法處理樣態不嚴重但廣泛情節輕微者設違法處理嗎交通部你同意這樣的說法嗎呃我想我尊重委員會尊重大院委員會沒錯你書面報告也是這樣寫的好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8810.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8838.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
然後部長其實就是這樣啦本席希望今天排這個案子經過詢答的程序之後大家在廣泛討論跟逐條討論的過程之中去把文字做合適的處理跟調整法規進合的部分要給它避免掉不破防的功能要給它保留其實就是這樣那本席要花一點點時間要特別探討的其實是噪音這一塊因為本席是非常關心公益大家的管理條例跟相關的這些功能以實務上來講現在噪音管制法第六條你看這一樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8839.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8866.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
特殊的噪音樣態它會規範在噪音管制法裡面但是有一些不具持續性或不易量測的它就必須要歸給這個大鍋飯這個可以補破網的社會秩序維護法來處理所以說社會秩序維護法72條第三款也是今天大家有提修法版本的就是製造噪音、深夜喧嘩、妨害公眾安寧那我想先請內政部警政署這裡可不可以提供一下相關的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8868.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8882.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
因為剛剛根梢的部分有明確的數據但是社會法72條3款請問啦 比如說過去一年有開了多少張罰單使用的次數 承案的次數 相關的數據檢察組這邊有資料嗎我目前手頭沒在 不過這個很少因為他這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8884.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8901.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
我們去大部分都勸導因為沒有這個儀器沒辦法辨別這個是不是噪音是到達什麼程度所以這個的過程要求是沒辦法像那個噪音管制法有儀器的量測的這個狀況所以這個部分的這個績效過程設置法的採訪應該很少你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8904.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8915.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
裁罰的數字以你目前的了解很少沒有沒關係你會後來準備沒有 應該沒有啦因為我外勤幹了很久現在這個員警到達現場都是勸導而已都勸導而已都勸導來 我現在問第二個問題你們在員警有沒有統計處理這種疑難雜症妨礙公眾安寧的時候你們出勤了幾次 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8922.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8948.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
應該是算蠻多 應該很多次對不對所以我覺得這當然有討論的空間那我今天要特別強調其中的一個樣態叫做公寓大廈就是說以前沒有管委會那種鄰居大家是住透天或什麼的當然就是報警處理嘛妨礙公眾安寧就是報警處理你們再看情況要不要用社會秩序違法來做處理不過現在公寓大廈管理條例有特別規定當然也是為了減少我們警察同仁的勤務負擔就是說管委會你應該有內部先有一套的處理機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8948.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8965.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
不過這個我也要幫公寓大廈的管委會來請命啊比如說深夜發生噪音的時候按照現行的規定你要先通報管委會那有保全的比較豪華的服務比較周全的管委會可能有警衛幫忙處理那大部分為了省管理費等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8967.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8986.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
就沒有 夜間沒有保全那管委會半夜兩點三點還要幫忙處理噪音問題這就間接導致了這公寓大廈管理變成一個苦差事沒有人做的這樣一個狀況那請問針對公寓大廈這一段的這種噪音的處置狀態你們有沒有去思考過內政部也好 警政署也好有沒有思考過一個更好的平衡的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8986.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8996.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那我想現在如果公益大廈管理處罰條例有成立這些當然有管理會來做一個處理那如果沒有部分目前還是適用設置法的這個狀況報請來做一個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8998.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9024.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
還是報警來做處理我是希望藉這次的質詢來做討論啦因為我以現行的公益大廈管理條例你要先通報管委會管委會不行你還是通報監管機關我只覺得把事情越弄越複雜了就一個噪音案件處理的流程非常的繁雜收證也不容易就會導致最後剛剛署長講的其實這個法有規定但是實際上執行的狀況很少我是覺得希望有一套更明確的標準我以桃園市為例比如說這個是他的分工表 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9025.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9045.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
哪些用公寓大廈管理條例哪一些用這個噪音管制法他就有明確的這個說法那再來他也有噪音認定表有地方政府各地的實踐有這樣子的一個方式我希望中央不管這次修法的結果怎麼樣因為我講這個要保留大家討論的空間但是針對大廈管理的噪音的問題啊如何來做認定如何能夠讓如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9047.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9075.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
不管是噪音管制法公寓大廈管理條例或者是社會秩序維護法能夠有效的使用我希望我們的行政機關可以研擬一套比較明確好執行的認定方案尤其是可以照顧到我們的公寓大廈相關的這些管委會也好或者是解決社區的疑難雜症這樣可以嗎警政署辛苦了但是內政部這部分也要請部長交代一下我知道你們中央負責公寓大廈的人力是非常稀缺的但是我覺得這是一個很重要的問題也是一個民生的問題嘛好不好希望部裡面做一下研擬可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9077.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9093.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
你講的有關公寓大廈管理條例的部分我們基本上是希望能夠採取合議制但是委員很多說法我都贊成可是有一點我還是要幫我們的警員講一下話第一個警員到現場去的話幾乎都是希望能夠化解糾紛 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9094.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9118.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
沒錯不管他是噪音還是吵架還是丟東西而不是說因為你們吵架所以我用噪音管制法來管理因為如果你給警員很多這樣子的一個自由裁量的新政的時候就是像跟我在回應其他委員的說法那後續他有很多訴願跟行政訴訟那這樣子會沒完沒了所以我們的社會秩序委員法現在碰到的困境是這個樣子所以警員出勤的次數真的非常多 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9118.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9133.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
可能是100件裡面只有一件或是甚至到1000件以上所以要合平的處理不要說馬上就把它放到法條裡面去那這樣反而會增加我們在執行上很多困擾因為有法而不行的話不像是我們法治社會裡面應該遵行的一個要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9133.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9160.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
沒關係 這就是我講為什麼我希望警政署這邊整理數據的原因包含法的使用次數 還有你的出行次數中間的落差 還有問題也是為什麼衍生出來應該要有一套更好的執行機制這是本期今天質詢的重點但法條的內容待會我們在討論的時候大家再各自表示意見看看有沒有辦法商量出一個圓滿的方案好 那就感謝部長跟署長的說明 謝謝謝謝 美娟議員的質詢也謝謝部長 署長那接下來我們請李博議委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9166.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9169.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
來 先請署長警政署長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9176.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9199.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
大部分的委員其實在講我們社會法但是剛剛還是有國民黨的委員有提到4月17國民黨主席帶頭到北檢去做集會的這個事情我整理一個當天我們台北市警局當天收證跟舉牌的是台北市警局嗎台北市警察局署長我必須要說台北市 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9200.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9213.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
警局他的執法他的舉牌包含勸導警告跟制止非常的有技巧這個應該是精心設計的啦他分別在6點46分第一度 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9214.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9241.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
舉牌勸導然後在7點50分跟8點51分9點50分10點54分跟11點54分分別舉牌警告跟制止一個小時一次中間兩個插曲中間兩個插曲就是一個插曲就是7點54分的時候那因為攔尾率重 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9243.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9257.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
已經是禁止區了還率中迫害鋸馬這又多舉牌一次其實他給蔣萬安市長一個很大的空間說好了蔣萬安市長去半個小時就好了就在這6點45分到7點50分他要舉牌這個空檔蔣萬安市長如果在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9265.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9285.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
順利30分鐘離開是不會被舉牌的啦但是很不幸的他在北檢受訪的時候在外面受訪的時候時間有點耽擱啦所以待的時間久了一點之外呢他又遇到這個南緯率眾暴力破壞鋸馬這個事情所以蔣萬安市長分別被舉牌兩次警告 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9286.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9304.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
沒有代表什麼就是一個首都市長一個念法律系的首都市長不遵守法律的一個記號啦在這邊我沒有要求警政署說你現在要辦蔣萬安但是我要強調的是蔣萬安市長其實原本已經跟台北市政府警察局巧合啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9305.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9317.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
一個小時內啊就是我在這個空檔進去不會舉到牌啦但是被攔尾破壞了啦但是被這個時間沒有掌控好破壞了所以署長這邊我要是是要讓你知道這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9320.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9350.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
法院北檢外面它其實這個對集會來講這個不是民主這個叫法制這個叫做破壞法制這個叫做藍白不斷要破壞法制來影響司法把它變成日常這個我們還是要跟國人說明清楚這個是在破壞台灣的法制所以警政署的同仁也非常辛苦當天我想收證的應該也不只台北市警局警政署有沒有派員支援 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9350.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9368.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我那天沒有支援,那邊純粹由台北市這個條件來處理好,謝謝,來,署長今天還要講這個社會秩序維護法那社會秩序維護法,其實我難得跟這個牛許廷為員難得跟召集人有一個共同的共識啦難得,真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9372.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9380.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
對 針對這個運動票券跟藝文票券還有跟稍法已經有其他的相關的法令已經有規定的我覺得這個可以另外再討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9382.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9411.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
但是針對這個噪音事件其實身處都會區大樓區其實我們說警察同仁最難處理的事情其實也是大樓之間的吵雜樓上樓下這個問題那我再強調一次前年在高雄有一個無姓男子跑去殺了樓上的鄰居的一對父母年輕的父母那這一個無姓男子他被判死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9412.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9439.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
是在這個憲法判決後是被判死刑是一致死刑所以一直有人在說台灣這個憲法法庭宣告死刑無效這個是假的他這是一個死刑的案例但是這一個裡面警方有沒有更大的空間來處理這個事情當然之前有沒有報案這個我不知道警政署這邊有沒有去調查或是市政府警察局有沒有相關的這些紀錄就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9442.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9469.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
如果這個案例如果警方可以去因為這個公寓大廈管理條例之外那有這種大樓公寓大廈的這些噪音的爭執的時候那警方可以有更大的權力或者是警方可以及時的來制止這些問題的話我想這個我會比較傾向說讓警方有更大的空間可以來處理這個事情因為在都會局有非常多 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9469.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9496.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
的這些大樓裡面的糾紛其實是從這裡造成的那警方去也不是說現行法當然就是可以罰六千但是事後當然有很多的這些包含他身負的管道包含這些會造成很多的這些行政程序的繁瑣等等的這個我都理解但是讓警方出面的時候對於這件事情馬上可以解決或者是有更大的約束力我覺得這可以討論 署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9498.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9513.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
對那如果說在法律規範的完整性更完整的話有這些法律的依據那我們警方受理這一個報案之後到場去做處理當然是有更完整的這個保障這個我認同但是又一方面增加警方的這些壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9514.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9541.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那有一些就是說可能牽涉到這些法律有盡的剛剛有些委員有提到的就是說如果說是屬於特別法的話那未來要更完整的話是不是要在這些專法裡面再來做修正是我覺得很多這種鄰居之間的這些吵雜你說要等到環保局來錄音來監測這個其實都有困難那增加一些可以趕快嚇止這些糾紛的這些權利我覺得是可以討論的好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9545.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9550.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
好 謝謝難得諾有共識的李博義委員下一位我們請徐姓委員質詢好 謝謝主席本席請劉部長還有張署長 警政署張署長劉部長 張署長也請徐委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9567.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9576.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
部長還有署長首先本席想請教一個問題這個禮拜六4.26凱道有活動兩位知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9578.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9599.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
知道那我們現在得到消息就是會有人反串這個自備五星旗或共黨旗混入人群那可能會引起一些衝突請問這個部分部長是不是會要求警政署好好的來取締這個我們對於這個狀況各種我們都會掌握來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9602.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9619.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那如果本席在這裡可以明確的先告知我們絕對沒有只要拿五星旗或共黨旗的絕對不是這次我們真正邀請的對象如果警方看到五星旗共黨旗 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9621.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9642.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
這個我不知道長怎麼樣那你們會不會取締會不會協助會這個4月26那是申請合法的一個集會我們一定會維護這個集會過程當中的和平順利那如果牽涉到其他會計做干擾干涉不相干的我們會配合主辦單位來做排除好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9644.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9650.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
接著本席要就我們今天這個社會秩序維護法來請教署長那您先回座我接下來請教部長部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9660.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9688.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
這個社會秩序維護法是在內政部但是好像這次修法新增的有些部分好像跟文化部體育部但是體育部還沒成立還有跟可能行政院消保處都很有關環境部對對對還有衛福部衛福部有關所以本席在這裡首先先就這次修法有人提這個醫療票券的部分那我看到衛福部的回應是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9689.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9714.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
等於是可以免就是免列意思就是說這個所謂的醫療票券我們也許有一些長者或是有些民眾他是因為工作忙碌或是長者不便請人代為不管掛號或是排隊那這個部分請人代為掛號排隊所以提供一些勞務費我想這個部長您是否認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9715.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9736.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我想他的定義啦還是由目的事業主管機關來講會比較因為掛號涉及到衛福部的整個醫事的系統衛福部已經說如果所謂的醫療票卷他們的意見我看到他們的報告但是這個還沒有做最後的確認因為委員的說法不是您啦委員有的人覺得是有人覺得不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9737.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9762.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
這是你講的就是一般是戴掛號是為了解決譬如說行動不方便的老者長者那另外一方面有的人說在網路上面就有的人已經包山包海要包掛號你要從台大醫院到小診所都有那就表示說他有沒有涉及惡意或者是哄抬或者是要用這個高的這個報酬的方式來幫忙處理這件事譬如說我們的掛號費只要一百大家給你收一千 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9763.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9770.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那這樣對不對那這裡面又有很多委託行為是否合法化這個應該是我們進入主條的時候還要做討論然後釐清的意思嗎我還是一樣因為我們在處理有關於黃牛這件事情在行政院的四次這個開會裡面都有提到要採取分散立法也就是目的失業主管機關盡量分散 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9787.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9807.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那如果說是掛號黃牛如果有這個名詞的話那是否由衛福部他們來做比較好的所以您表達意見是因為要分散到目的或者叫分流立法分流立法到目的事業主管機關我們來配合就不希望納在我們內政部管轄的社會秩序維護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9808.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9829.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那個報告委員我想我們是一起合作的啦就是各個部一起合作那我們因為警察人員有那個警察權那警察權可以協助的立場一定來協助但是這一張黃牛票他的認定要開罰多少錢或是怎麼認定不是由我們來認定的是目的事業主管機關或者他是違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9830.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9858.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
環境噪音的部分的話呢是要目的事業主管機關來認定可能會比較好所以這樣子的競合啊我們需要仔細來討論我想很多委員都贊成但是如果你全部把它堆回去是社會秩序維護法那就一條條圓要解決一個部隊裡面要處理的事情會有困擾那部長您請留步然後同步請消保處的代表有嗎今天消保處有請還有一今天好像是文化部文化部 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9859.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9878.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
來文化部副市長有請謝謝包含教育部不好意思最後我想請教因為剛剛我還沒提到黃牛票我只是提到醫療我們部長就提到黃牛票現在對於不管是運動賽事或是像演唱會 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9879.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9898.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
那這個在過去可能他賣假設好一點的位置五千塊黃牛票如果烘台到八千或甚至一萬的我們就認定是黃牛票嘛對不對那但是現在因為現在社會變遷那我們在飲食上已經有所謂的代買代牌 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9900.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9918.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
現在不是只有像Uber其實我們現在有一種就是它取代了整合了傳統代為排隊就在飲食上也有包括買這些票券所以以前的黃牛票我們是稱黃牛票現在如果說OK我請他幫我代排代買這個部分怎麼認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9921.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9951.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
因為我 譬如說他賣我八千假設這一個演唱會的這位歌星我覺得我能夠聽到他的演唱他的票券本來五千塊的那幫我代牌代買的他說那個勞務費要我給他三千這個願者如果我也願意的話這樣還會是黃牛票嗎這個部分可不可以回答一下那部長您就先請坐好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9952.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9953.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
哈哈哈哈你錢說 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9954.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9982.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
跟委員報告這個在行政院討論的時候把黃牛票的一個定義上就是說是一個加價轉售就是從所以我把那個加價看成是勞務就沒關係勞務如果說真的是有一些勞務的付出我想那是一般的一個社會上通常的一個合理情形但是如果說不是超過一般社會上合理認定的這種勞務的這個給付的話那是一個所謂的加價轉售然後謀取所謂的一個不當的這個是不是要定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9983.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9999.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
因為有些人他譬如說原價五千但是他真的覺得一萬他也願意那所以你的勞務要跟我收同樣五千那這個你要認定是黃牛還是是他勞務一般是會想共通 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9999.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10018.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
共同認定的一個所謂的勞務的給付的一個費用我想這個應該是在所有的各行各業中都有一定的一個給付的一個標準啦有嗎現在買運動賽事或是買演唱會也有一個認定標準的嗎如果是個人親自去網路上去購票或去現場購票的話那就沒有所謂勞務的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10019.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10039.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那委託他人的話也許會有所謂的跑路啊或者說一些服務的費用但這種服務費用如果說已經超過原價的一倍或兩倍的話那實際上就是一個超越的性質啦那就是一個加價的轉售啦他加價轉售目的是在於他自己個人的圖利啊而不是說跑路費用所謂的一個勞務上付出的一個對價啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10040.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10063.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
所以你們是這樣認定但是買的人他甘願的話怎麼辦他還是有罪對方還是有罪假定買人甘願的話可能就不會提出任何的買了黃牛票所以就沒有這個問題我們不能說沒有這個問題而是說絕大部分的黃牛票的形成就是因為說這種加價轉秀然後被迫讓這些沒有辦法買到票的消費者 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10065.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10075.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
被迫要去負擔這樣的一個錢出來那是一個被迫性質跟所謂的勞務性的基礎應該是有差別的那所以我想其他的應該也是一樣的意見嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10077.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10106.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
是不是委員報告就是一般像以代購行為他很可能其實只是以代購的行為包裝他加價的這一個非法的事實所以這可能都還是要事實認定那基本上我們還是會從法法來看的話超過票價的金額在販售的話他其實應該就是就是在我們法裡面是個黃牛的行為對那大部分說代購其實都只是用代購在做一個違法行為的包裝這樣子所以你們不 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10107.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10136.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
不認可這樣嗎 但實際上生活上可能需要喔所以這塊沒關係 那我大概了解你們的立場最後 請回座 最後部長我最後不好意思 我最後再請教一點不是這次修法 但是也是社會秩序維護法第63條有提到就是說如果散佈謠言足以影響公共之安寧者要處三日以下的拘留或新台幣三萬以下的罰環 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10141.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10164.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
現在我們總預算的從去年底到今年很多的謠言不斷的衝刺散佈在我們社會上甚至有的是行政機關散播出來的那像這個請問您這個合不合乎因為民眾常常就恐慌啦說什麼錢被刪所以我什麼福利沒了什麼福利沒了這有沒有影響公共安寧 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10166.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10193.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
報告委員 這個要看事實上如何認定對 如果事實上謠言所說的那個項目沒有被刪除但是卻有這樣的謠言出來那這一塊是警察還是誰要去執法如果是社會秩序維護法當然是由警察來出面來處理這一塊所以呢 所以我們聽到這樣謠言的要檢舉是嗎對 是不是檢舉 然後警察就 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10194.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10218.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
跟我們警政署檢舉 是嗎不是啊 我就問你這一塊現在就很多啊您剛所引用的這個條文當然裡面寫的是這個部分那應該怎麼處理啊 現在那麼多謠言我們還要做事實的認定啊事實的認定所以現在要有人 等於提出跟警政署提出有這樣的謠言 是這樣嗎程序上我請警政署來回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10220.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10245.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
如果有這個狀況的話就是提出檢舉那我們會來做調查像誰像如果說110或者是到警察機關檢舉都可以你第一前面講110110的報案或警察機關來做檢舉如果是屬於這個設置法裡面我們會做設立然後再做依照市值的一個調查依照這個市值的證據是不是屬於這個屬於這個是屬於遙遠的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10248.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10276.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
好那最後我想請部長還有署長我們現在接下來我們的社會有很多的考驗我們希望我們中央單位千萬不要辦藍不辦綠希望能夠公正好嗎該維護的要維護然後真的違法的不要分藍綠都該處理好嗎沒有問題一定是依法行政對依法行政我們會保持中立好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10278.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10282.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
好謝謝徐姓委員的諮詢下一位我們請吳祁銘委員諮詢好謝謝主席我們與會同仁而且我們內政部部長劉部長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10299.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10309.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
委員你好部長你好今天我們社會秩序維護法真的我們得知道今天我們所討論的我們社會秩序維護法在我們警察裡面是非常大的龐重龐大的負擔因為社會秩序維護法它涵蓋的範圍太過廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10321.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10348.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那其實我們警察他的勤務已經有過重那未來你包含說糾纏還有跟蹤騷擾等事件在我們111年我們的跟蹤騷擾防治法已經上路了那我們所接獲的民眾的陳情有8000多件那符合告誡的有5000多件 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10349.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10356.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
那你平常就已經加深警察他們的勤務這個負擔所以說今天我看到剛才在討論包含有防流票的問題就是應該我們的前者單位還是要把它歸類你像我們在新北市在雙溪還有遇到那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10375.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10386.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
挖隱形的這震驚我們整個社會尤其媒體那天在報導我看了都傻眼了其實他都是倒垃圾垃圾又是屬於環保這個區塊所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10390.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10397.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
未來我們的社會自治維護法要怎樣來歸類讓民眾來瞭解我們最主要是要讓民眾知道說這個部分你警察要怎麼來做這個簽討然後我們的環保人員要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10407.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10420.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
怎樣 因為都是鄰居嘛 要怎樣來跟他們做協調 才不會造成這個悲劇的發生這是目前我們要討論的 我們的社會知識維護法 這重點不要說什麼事都歸類於警察單位 我們警察 他們的勤務就非常繁重啊所以說在這個部分 請內政部部長 要怎麼來 妥善來做規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10432.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10457.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
是 謝謝委員的關心委員對於很多民眾涉及到社委法的部分其實也都非常的關心但是您剛有特別提到因為社委法在上一次修正到現在大概不到三年的時間這裡面如果我們發現說光是社會秩序維護法無法解決的問題行政院有指示所以我們已經採取叫分散立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10457.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10479.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
譬如說現在的這個文藝的黃流的部分的話呢就是請這個文化部來處理那如果是運動採卷運動發展條例的話就處理有關賽事的這個黃流的這個部分那譬如說噪音的話呢請噪音管制法那所以警察的他的職權的部分呢就比較明確化也就是說我們在協助目的事業主管機關來化解這方面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10481.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10484.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
然後不是說只要引用社會秩序違法就是為了開罰單或者是開罰金這個叫做我們一般來講但是我們警察還是願意協助這個部分那您剛所提到就是說鄰里之間的這個糾紛 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10496.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10514.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
我都知道像村里長也是很辛苦那是二十四點鐘過的工作費在處理事情但是呢我們只是盡量化解那如果真正升高到說需要由法律來解決的話大概還不至於先到法院大家都會先到警察局那到警察局的報案也是都包山包海 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10515.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10534.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
那所以我們現在的這個社會秩序維護法那個警員用社會秩序維護法來開罰的次數呢就慢慢在降低因為大家都是知道說法治社會有法律的地方啊大家互相要相認和好還是大家互相要遵守法律那所以如果現在呢如果要再把它加重刑責 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10535.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10564.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
或者是加重他們的業務量的話我覺得這樣反而讓事情的回歸到越來越混亂但是呢我們可以處理的就是說現在已經分散立法的部分譬如說給環境部給文化部給這個體育部未來的體育部或者是甚至未來有交通部的處理因為交通部他們現在處理是只有管大眾運輸的這個鐵路的票那個叫做運輸的票卷但是呢交通部又有處理像觀光旅宿 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10564.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10575.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
的部分在這個部分也還沒有放到交通部應該處理的範圍所以我們很希望說未來如果有機會我們還是會繼續跟行政院反映就是說讓目的事業主管機關的這個事業的這個部會他們能夠就不管是黃牛也好或是說消費糾紛的部分盡量採取這樣的方式那還有呢其實還有一個叫做消費者保護法那消費者保護法呢在地方機關地方政府也有譬如說地方的消保會 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10594.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10602.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
之類的那但是很多人啊很多人都覺得說最好現在先開館啦不要說明天要再去起政府 再去管政府再去兜圍 再去找所以最快的一定找里長第二天就找警察里長就是用口供的 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10609.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10631.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
那警察看他可以開大門這樣子那這樣子反而造成我們的警察他會一直要處理這個事像剛剛那個署長有跟那個委員報告過真的噪音管制法開罰的比例不是很高但是警員為了要應付噪音的問題他可能要往返的那個次數可能是高於百倍跟千倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10631.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10659.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
所以你現在如果再把這些噪音管制為了加強它的罰則好像就能夠降低噪音的糾紛跟困擾我覺得反而是後端管理不是後端管理的問題是源頭的部分譬如說公寓大廈的管委會我們要不要制定大家一個比較好的相處之道你晚上10點以後你就不要再唱歌之類的但是偶爾拖個桌腳 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10660.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10660.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
對,好,謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10685.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10705.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
因為我們這麼明確的規定 不然很多民眾他們遇到事情 絕地都是靠電來找警察所以做成警力都已經不過了 已經又吃重所以這樣可以說 前者單位都把他列分出來民眾讓他們了解 謝謝部長 感謝 辛苦好 謝謝吳京平委員的諮詢 下一位我們請羅廷瑋委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10720.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10721.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
好 謝謝趙偉 有請部長 還有署長 張署長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10730.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10751.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
好 部長好行政院開過跨部會的一個會議決定分散處理那回歸主管機關然而實務上主管機關的一個處理也不是萬靈丹那舉例來說文創法運轉條例所以已經針對演唱會體育活動的黃牛進行加重處罰但文化部仍需轉交地方政府進行裁罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10751.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10774.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
而地方政府普遍都反映能力資源有限行政流程繁瑣舉證不易以及導致整個成效低落大量的檢舉卻是成案較少那相較之下社會法可由警察直接處理程序簡便反映快速才是更有效嚇止黃牛的地道防線分散處理最終導致的是全責分散執行無力 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10774.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10789.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那黃牛票依然橫行民怨不減所以今天我們才在這邊修這個社會法不是嗎那民眾在乎的是結果那問題沒有被解決買票還是買不到啊黃牛還是沒有被處理啊不是今天你們跟行政院開過幾次會 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10791.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10808.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
主管機關在整個執行上我們就看到心有餘而力不從心就應該要做得更好而不是隨便找藉口搪塞而內政部在這一次我們購買而意圖轉售盈利的相關票券的行為可能屬於未遂但是行政法 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10809.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10831.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
未規定處罰的未稅行為社會法亦無法處罰這樣子的未稅行為所以我們今天要討論的是意圖轉售圖利的一個行為而不是純粹的未稅行為而是像這樣子的一個情況我要在這邊特別講使用假帳號大量的搶購門票以將票券上架在這些網站上名門標價的一個價格顯示 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10833.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10854.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
並提供聯繫而準備交易的這個行為這類的行為就是社會秩序的危害具體表現的一個樣態不是只是內心想賣所以我今天提出社會法64條的一個版本修改為非公自用意圖轉售盈利謀利購買票券上架陳列 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10855.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10884.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
販售就應該加以處罰這是我們今天想要一起來探討希望能夠有警察執法人員的一個介入來作為一個更有效的一個執法但是內政部我們看PTT隨著各類的票券回歸到主管機關80年制定公佈執行的社會法第64條第二款已經完成歷史任務並可退場但是黃牛的樣態我們可以看到並非只有演唱會跟體育活動其他豬 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10885.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10906.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
諸多還有像是遊樂票券醫療袋掛號新興黃牛的這些樣態都已經進行了管理這就是之前報導有報過現行醫院或者是民醫這種熱門的門診黃牛在網路上開價卡位掛號轉手賣給有錢人導致真正有需要看病的人反而掛不到號 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10906.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10931.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
所以我想目前很少用到色違法我剛剛也應該有去詢問過內政部的同仁去年這些樣態用色違法去開罰的幾乎是沒有也是希望在這一次大家聚焦在演唱會運動票卷可是其他的新興黃牛產業是沒有專法可依的所以終究是要回到色違法去做一個處理那我們今天要如何讓色違法更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10932.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10949.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
這是民眾所期待的所以本席針對內政部說已完成歷史任務這個部分來希望社會法64條可以退場我感到不能夠認同那我希望這個部分這個狀況根本就沒有被處理到本席要再一次的提醒內政部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10950.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10972.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
黃牛的樣態真的隨時代代變遷已經逐漸的變成更多元難以察氣的模式社會法六四條我個人認為是不能夠退場而且要給予更多的一個多元強化讓黃牛能夠無所遁形否則整個就是還是讓黃牛逍遙法外無法無天這以上是我所提的一個這個版本部長那您覺得呢我講了這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10974.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10998.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
剛剛委員所提的部分我不曉得退場是什麼意思我們是說不要修正啦那另外您剛所提到黃牛的樣態當然越來越多但是警察只有一個所以到底由誰來認定黃牛票然後要開罰多少然後他什麼叫做惡意的哄抬那當然是要有目的事業主管機關來幫忙做認定否則你現在所有的工作全部堆給警察的話其實警察沒有辦法百分之百 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10998.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11020.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
達到一般人去報案的一個結果所以我是說只有單獨去修社會秩序維護法以目前來講不符合分散立法的原則那我剛特別提到如果目的事業主管機關每一個機關都可以把他們對於黃牛的樣態或是他已經產業鏈的處理方式做源頭管理的話那我們在後端的查處一定是可以協助以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11021.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11036.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
我覺得就現在我剛剛所說的我們有去問過內政部那個警政署現在的社會法並沒辦法在去年沒有這樣子的一個去執行沒有去抓那可能是因為他們在這個現階段社會法的運用上是有困難的 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11037.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11062.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那當然我能夠認同各個機關的責任也不能夠減少應該要加重但是現階段民眾的期許就是在任何的機關都有一定的責任幫忙協助把黃牛抑制到最低我們當然也希望警政署能夠幫忙但是我也要幫警政署講話的確是非常的繁重業務所以這邊我另外要提署長我從第一年就在一直在講台中市的繁重加擠 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11064.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11090.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
請問一下有沒有下文啊那我們那已經有他說要做在加成的部分我們會做全班的做全國性的這個全部的考量全國性的檢討那台中有沒有機會第二大城市的那未來我們會把它考量都是會納入考量的我要拜託我們已經是第二大城市台中的繁重佳績不應該去輸給其他的縣市啊再來我想詢問一下最後一個問題問一下我們內政部部長部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11092.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11116.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
您有瞭解過新加坡有一個制度叫做輔警嗎我知道有輔警但是可能沒有委員那麼清楚我不敢說我很清楚但我要跟您探討是一件事情各國都有這樣子的一個樣態其實在我們現階段也看到在警察相關的一些業務上我們看到文書作業也蠻繁重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11117.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11134.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
是不是能夠去聘請更多的文書人員來做支持而不是等待相關的這些警察畢業的同仁第二我們看到新加坡有所謂的輔警制度他們是透過這些相關的一些人才培訓去協助所謂的開罰單 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11136.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11165.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
交給專業的人士甚至他們的這些制度未來能不能去研議我想現場這個楊瓊英委員也帶我們去新加坡我們去了解這一個制度我不敢說它是最完美但我要講的是現在警察人員的確非常繁重包括剛剛有人在探討的我記得剛剛部長也在說有所謂的改裝噪音噪音管制的一個問題那個是所謂環境部的一個責任但是現階段署長我們是不是今年又有新法 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11165.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11183.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
所謂的噪音管制改裝噪音排氣管有一部分的認定是交給警察去處理排氣管他去所謂的認定是否源頭處理完以後我們倒交條例去把它沒有鐵排認證的這些排氣管要加以開罰對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11184.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11200.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
那這個部分應該是由主管機關來認定業務主管機關他們主要認定整個排氣管他們是否合格到後面執法的時候也是要麻煩警察所以我一再的認同警察的這些相關執勤業務是非常繁重 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11201.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11228.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那當然我們希望能夠幫忙協助員警能夠增加人力能夠增加福利這是我們最重要的所以我也希望輔警的這個制度在新加坡這個樣態有去執行未來我們是不是能夠來幫忙協助警察人員相關的一些人員進入進駐幫助他們去減少他們的相關業務我們一增一減一起來協助但是我還是回歸到今天的社會法你們有說 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11229.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11250.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
這個部分上是不需要再去修法甚至在這邊在我們看到的文書上面是有說已經完成歷史任務並可退場這不是我講的所以這部分上的用字遣職我是不能夠認同那我也非常感謝今天我們召委來排審這樣子的一個相關修正草案我們一定是一定支持那也希望所有的委員能夠一起支持謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11251.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11254.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
好 謝謝羅廷輝委員的諮詢下一位我們請鄭振權委員鄭振權委員不在下一位我們請楊瓊英委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11270.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11274.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
我們首先來討論警政署不斷地強調黑槍獨炸的決心跟成效但是我們看到光鮮亮麗的 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11292.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11308.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
這個績效背後是我們刑警弟兄長期的人力短缺跟沉重的壓力所以本席做了一個統計我們全國偵查組的預算原額是4674人那麼它現有的現有實際上的原額是4025人換句話說預算缺額實際上超就是649人 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11320.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11339.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
他的缺額率是13.89%那比起過去10年當然你有增加了3%儘管2023年我們放寬了警察署的徵選這個資格呢但是他的成效是有限的那刑警的荒惡化呢是嚴重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11339.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11362.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
所以在這樣的情況之下本席要請教部長跟署長我們要如何的來改善刑警人力吃緊的困境因為本席認為刑警專業如果沒有辦法順利的傳承下去那動搖的是我國非常重要的議題治安根基請教部長跟署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11365.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11390.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那我想現在形式的缺口是目前大概是目前的這個狀況那未來我想就是形式的這個缺口部分我們有幾個面向來做改善第一個就是要再簡化我們非必要的形式的這個業務那第二部分就是要解決目前的這個缺口可能用支援警力燃益刑警人力的一個缺口那來進度加補這個第一線的這個人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11391.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11412.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那第三個部分就是我們有對於這個報考警大的各級班或專為刑警開班的警佐班第三類這個名額我們會再來做提升那另外有兩個面向應該是蠻重要就是在工作上的獎勵不管是在工作的一個鼓勵的部分就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11413.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11415.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
那部長要不要補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11433.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11460.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我們署長講得非常清楚原則上我們希望能夠從這個簡化非必要的形式勤務先著手然後再來就是增加新進的這個形式的同仁那如果需要警察大學或者是需要考試院來協助的話我們願意一起來努力跨部會加油但是部長跟署長在這邊如果以目前您所答覆的這四項當中第一項在業務上面第二項在 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11462.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11486.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
人不夠的部分你要有警力來支援這個也會衍生第二個問題那第三個你說從學校我們的名額來增加這非常重要這是長遠的一個規劃跟訓練那最後一項也是很重要的一點你的工作佳績你的待遇所以你研議當中你什麼時候可以研議出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11487.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11504.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
你要的確把你的方案拿出來因為我們目前所缺的就是這麼多人你的預算裡頭你的缺額就是有將近650位那在這樣的情況下本市要請教第四點你們的研議 你的待遇以及你的家籍什麼時候方案可以出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11507.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11525.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
那這個部分我們行政局正在規劃當中那我們其實很早就注意到這個問題那我們會把這個方案規劃出來之後再來做預計什麼時候可以公佈那我想這個部分你很早就知道這個問題而且你們也努力在規劃對對對你看多久時間可以告訴我們你的方案我看行政局 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11535.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11552.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那這個部分可能也要寫掉我們的這個其他其他其他其他部分就是如此請教因為這個大家都知道非常的需要啊尤其你是主主單位啊我想是不是在三個月裡面我們把這個三個月內你提出研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11556.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11577.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我們刑警的這個加級的待遇這個跟他的薪資你要提出三個月接下來最後一個議題本席請教部長部長我們在112年12月8號修正通過的殯葬管理條例我也感謝總統在我們第35條相關條文的修正總統先生是在112年的12月27號總統公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11585.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11603.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
當時我很感謝我們朝野的委員大家努力的去研討而且很順利的出了委員會那也在12月27號的時候總統來做公佈那相關的配套執法修正草案還沒有完成公告所以他在新生的這個日期我們尊重行政部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11604.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11609.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那我也歡喜的聽到你們預計內政部預計要在下個月下旬要開始來做相關條例的執法的修正的配套的新法的一個說明會那現在業者除了感恩之外最重要的這個開始的時間點據聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11625.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11646.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
是有說要7月1號要請業者開始來執行之但是我們接到陳請 朝野的委員都接到陳請也就是希望能夠延到9月1號 不要再7月1號因為在你5月下中旬或者下旬開始做各地的一個說明會那說明之後或許已經落點 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11648.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11651.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
這個六月了那七月一號倉促要上路他們不管在他的契約以及他的這個電腦化的這個相關配套都必須業者希望要有一點時間那現在業者是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11663.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11671.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
他也全力的配合是希望能夠在9月1號正式上路所以我也將業者的這個心聲給部長來了解第一個我希望我們的法好不容易朝野委員這麼努力而且詳實的討論也經過總統的公告那也謝謝內政部你們在這一段時間一直在研擬這個執法那終於在5月下旬 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11691.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11714.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
開始要到各地去做說明因為本席認為這個業者他們在執行方面是必須希望要能夠落實到所以這個時間的緩衝本席認為是必要的那我也希望第二個希望在整個說明會當中也希望內政部也聆聽了業者的聲音再做一個整體性的一個整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11716.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11731.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
也就是希望我們要法治化讓業者也有所本而且做的可以達到一個效能所以建議在整個說明會之後凝聚大家的意見也希望將這個執行的時期是不是讓業者有一個緩衝跟設備以上建言請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11740.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11761.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我們來檢討,委員都了解我們跟地方政府要開這個說明會分別在五月嘛,十三、十六分、二十一嘛那業者也有表達這個心聲但是我要跟委員報告我們從這個一百一十二年到現在已經超過一年四個月所以他們除非是真正碰到很大的困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11762.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11769.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
其實我們是每次延三個月以後就會有人說再延三個月所以我們常常聽到這樣的聲音那我想說我們是不是把這三場的這個分區說明會再說明清楚包括我們的這個內政部處理的中理司他們在處理的過程當中會碰到什麼樣子的一個困擾那到時候再跟委員來做這個總結 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11784.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11786.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
謝謝部長的回答我們總是希望當時因為沒有院版這個法案我超感動的當時行政院內政部的代表來大家也一起好好的在研討所以這個法案當中有很多也就是朝野 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11801.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11819.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
以及行政院所提出的這個見解大家綜合出來所以可以說是一個非常成功的一個推動的法案那我們也希望推動完之後總統公告公布之後我們希望業者可以落實還有地方政府他們能夠有有充足的時間好好的來達到這個效能那我也希望就成都部長剛剛所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11826.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11837.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
說明會之後你們會再去討論我們希望業者可以好好的來做時間上如果需要緩衝也希望得到政府部門的一個應許以上見言 謝謝好 謝謝楊瓊英委員的質詢下一位我們請劉建國委員質詢劉建國委員 劉建國委員不在丁薛忠委員質詢改書面下一位我們請張琦改委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11859.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11885.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
我們劉部長一向都非常非常認真好,劉部長有請抱歉抱歉,我以為你要請署長,所以我就先下去,抱歉抱歉張委員好來,我來問你一個可能是這個世紀最大的烏龍,最大的擾民 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11888.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11910.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
而且應該是要國賠4月2號移民署寄了一萬多份的通知給陸配結果搞了一個大烏龍竟然有些子女根本就沒有大陸的戶籍你們全部把它寄出去對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11916.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11943.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我跟委員報告一下應該是這樣講就是說我們叫陸配陸配子女他是因為跟我們台灣人結婚之後那當時他因為沒有任何身份證他可能是一歲或是三歲以下所以他就跟著媽媽或是跟著爸爸一起回來台灣那我們在寄發這些信件出去的時候就一併寄發就是以這樣子為原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11945.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11964.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
那事後移民署有跟我報告之後我們有請移民署要再跟所謂的當時並沒有任何中國身份證或是中國的戶籍證明的這些要再說明清楚那可能我們說明的不是非常清楚所以我在這邊先跟當時並沒有任何中國身份證件的這些年輕的台灣的國民說抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11972.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12001.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
你鄭重的跟他們道歉嘛,對不對第一個,我們先把這個大烏龍,大枣餅先把它弄清楚部長今天也清楚道歉了那這個事情為什麼會發生就是這些年輕的小孩,他們跟陸配是掛在一起的那你之前你移民署跟陸委會你要寄出這個通知之前你是要他去補這個,放棄這個大陸戶籍他本來就沒有嘛所以這是政府的一個失職了那我進一步問喔,沒有要改觀所以你今天道歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12001.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12022.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
你應該再補季一個,跟他講說我們之前作業失誤了嘛,對不對地市業更嚴重啊,保證你只要從4月,我要講這個比較嚴重,你4月2號就季了,到現在已經三個禮拜了有些人可能已經回到大陸去,對不對,放棄大陸戶籍這些東西本來就沒有東西嘛,你無中生有嘛,那這個要不要國賠 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12024.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12043.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
報告委員我先來跟委員說明一下剛剛你所提到的部分雖然說他在當時並沒有這個中國大陸的身份證件但是他是在中國大陸出生跟原生地是在台灣確定還是不太一樣所以我們在這一次郵入委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12044.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12072.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
來指導我們的移民署所處理的有實際困難案件的協處機制裡面有一項有六項是拒絕的拒絕來替代繳付這個除籍的證明就是在中國大陸出生學齡前也就是未滿七歲以前返台定居主張從未在陸涉及經移民署和確認者也就是說我們還是請他要把這個那個主張沒有在大陸涉及的這個證明讓移民署來確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12074.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12094.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
那個委員您先聽我說明我要這樣提的原因是這樣子可能委員大家都忘了一件事情就是說前一陣子有一位現在在國防部服兵役的人他也是就是類似委員剛剛所提的這個樣態但是呢他的媽媽在沒有告知這位這個軍人的狀況之下幫他在中國大陸申請了身份證件 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12100.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12128.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
但是他自己跟國防部講說他不要中國大陸的身分證件所以變成我們有知道這樣狀態之後也開了一個委員會來確認說他其實主張的因為我們台灣的戶籍跟國籍跟中國大陸是互斥的只能有一個他希望維持有台灣的身分證跟台灣的戶籍所以我們就請他用拒絕的方式然後國防部還是仍然請他留在國防部擔任職業軍人的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12129.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12138.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
也就是說因為有這樣子的案例發生之後才會讓我們警覺到說我們其實應該要全面性的去清查有這樣的狀態但是會發生有一些困擾就是您剛所說的也許他20年來他從來沒有離開過台灣但是呢他的父親或者是母親是否有幫他申請中國大陸那邊的證件我們也必須他來跟我們確認清楚那處理清楚以後大概就不會有其他的滋擾會再發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12157.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12185.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
這個大烏龍跟大掃民最根本的是什麼你根本就不應該你剛已經道歉了嘛不是我是說對他們造成困擾對他們造成的困擾可是我剛也跟你舉這個職業軍人的案例了啊這個職業軍人的案例了啊因為有這個職業軍人的案例說我們還是需要做這樣的處理才能做全面的清查你剛已經道歉了要矯正這個大烏龍第一個你要出去之前你就要先查清楚我們接受委員的批評移民署跟陸委會主委然後辦公室解釋嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12186.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12206.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
他說你們手上都有資料啊你們應該是寄出去之前你就知道好 例如說劉四芳有大陸這個戶籍你要去放棄張祺凱沒有你怎麼可以寄給張祺凱陸輝主委承認啊所以第一個這是個烏龍第二個他明確講你們手上都有嘛移民署跟陸輝都有嘛對不對你要先簽過啊就是因為你沒簽過嘛所以我才做第二個要求喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12207.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12220.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
第一個要求我是剛剛講的你寄給人家他明明沒有大陸戶籍你寄去已經是老民了所以他如果造成已經過去了花了錢了機票錢又沒有拿到你要國賠這是一個第二個更重要的你從現在開始你有責任舉證責任在你啊不是那個你隨便寄個通知說張其凱你有你就要回大陸去 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12228.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12254.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
陸委主委也承認啊他說你們是有辦法查到的只要一通電話或者到移民署到陸委會去我可以清楚知道說我在大陸有沒有戶籍嘛他跟我講連找哪個地方的公安你們都可以幫忙啊現在問題是自辦生你們都沒做啊那陸委會願意幫忙我們也願意遵照陸委會的指示來辦理對啊現在就是政治人物就是卡電話連移民署電話都擋不進去嘛然後去了你們移民署之後啊那你就回大陸去 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12255.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12277.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
就造成這樣一個擾民嘛 這是一個很大問題所以我具體 我先跟你講一下這個事情很嚴重 老實講 這是人間悲劇耶你不曉得你們那個一萬多封信一出去前台灣幾十萬陸配 很多家裡面那個兵荒馬亂 雞尾果跳的那可能如果被你們註銷 或者要驅逐出境那就變兩岸的人球 一台都沒了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12278.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12308.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
多少家庭因為這樣子最近這一個多月 將近一個月的時間家裡面產生多大一個變化 多大一個擔心我列幾個個案給你聽我大概說到幾百件 裡面有好幾件都是你們自己民進黨的支持者你們真的挖的不是只有台灣的民主法治這個根你們連民進黨跟青鳥都跳起來了有一個青鳥 一個年輕的 他在留言這個你在網路上都可以查得到一共我從剛開始大半年我就去連署了 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12309.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12334.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
連二階段的連署他都去參加了連他都擔心說那個門檻那麼高會不會不夠結果啊他說昨天我完全改變我的立場了因為我媽媽也收到這封最近鬧得很大的通知書他說不是我們辦不到啊可是我們當初來台灣的時候是依法辦理我們三四十年前資料都給你了是你政府沒有保存結果你現在要我們自己承擔還要去辦一趟 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12335.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12340.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
你政府也沒有想到先不要講說回去辦啦工作要請假要請假捏你要限制他三個月內還有機票錢這個錢不都要人家自己負擔他講說如果有一個是反共的網路上一查會不會回不來所以他最後做了一個結論叫什麼我們可以這樣繼續搞分化嗎瘋狂瘋起來不分敵我今天分化中配下次又是哪個族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12363.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12368.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
到時候我還要去跟你大連署一起去反共嗎另外一位年輕人他在這裡怎麼說他說我媽媽已經嫁來台灣三十幾年了1990年初那時候要來台灣依親一定還要到香港去辦一個中國大陸災包救濟總會提出來的中國除籍證明那時候可能連海基會都沒有他們證件都給你了結果你現在已經過了三十年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12393.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12406.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
你那個掛號信說移民署說我沒有資料你趕快給我補一個除籍的這個證明欸拜託勒他說哈囉30年前欸正本都被收走了你還要我媽媽飛去家鄉證明自己曾經是中國籍然後自己已經除籍了他說我媽媽拿台灣身份證台灣的護照繳健保費繳稅繳了30幾年他現在就是個台灣人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12418.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12439.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
結果今天政府你隨便寄了一紙信過去麻煩你要趕快證明不然三個月你就被趕出台灣了這些東西裡面都說的都是你民進黨自己的嘴巴是青鳥你這不是挖到自己根嗎來保定我們做個最具體的我們台灣民眾黨已經提出了修正草案兩岸人民關係條例的修正案我們明確的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12441.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12470.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
民國93年3月1號就是你這次修法實施之前的已經來定居了這時間真的太久了啦21年前保證包括你我們兩個職財阿固你要找21年前的東西也很難找在這個時間點以前全部改成一例都是可以拒絕的那之後現在都我會提出六大列排除嘛對不對六大列排除如果是在93年93年3月1號以後的範圍跟方法你們自己來定那之前的全部用拒絕的方式來解決第1個在我剛才說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12472.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12500.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
陸委會主委跟副主委然後辦公室他說你們都有資料啊所以現在他們只要任何陸配或者是二代只要到你們的移民署去只要到陸委會去你們要幫他查出來到底我在台中有給錢沒好不好你不要他跑一趟又辦不到然後第三個是我剛剛講的你剛剛講那個補破網你剛剛部長你說你倒楣嗎那你怎麼去補正你是不是先知之外你是不是應該去個函 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12502.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12515.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
你給人家一個函帳讓人家困擾你是不是一個禮拜內由移民署去個函帳說我之前走不到了我也道歉了你不用回大陸去這是第三點第四個你現在叫他三個月要辦完從你4月2號發出去現在已經三個禮拜了 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12520.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12536.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
時間太短了要不要把這個時間延長為兩年另外有人在反應你移民署電話就打不通嘛你提供了一個懶人包給大家看怎麼去辦的同時能不能在一個月內趕快北中南辦一個大型的說明會跟民眾講清楚要怎麼辦可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12538.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12555.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
我先從第五項開始答了那個移民署現在不是只有移民署包括各地的這個國境警察或者是專勤隊都有開放所以過去從4月21號我們開始開放申請的部分到目前為止呢現在電話我所了解比較沒有這樣子的一個抱怨 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12556.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12581.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
4月21號以後就有結果21號的時候我們跟陸委會已經同時把要拒絕的這個六項樣態呢都已經公佈在網站上面包括您剛剛所提的如果有老媽媽在年滿70歲或者是說104年1月1號的時候都沒有到大陸去的話他其實這樣子的樣態他就已經不需要再具備說要再回去中國大陸所以這個您所提到的不管是不方便 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12582.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12596.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
或者是不能夠譬如說政治的因素譬如說像文化界的複查先生那個部分我們都已經列進去我們現在要處理的是不願不願的理由我們也提到如果他是屬於低收入戶要購買機票有困難的話也可以告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12599.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12625.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
另外一個就是他現在可能是重大傷病根本不方便這個走動這個部分我們都列進去但是我們這樣的宣告他還是要來告訴我們說他哪裡的不方便為原則那同時你提到的就是說為什麼這個法律呢在二三十年前就定了為什麼現在才執行我們也了解這個部分所以我們去問過了在行政執行上面的部分呢就是按照行政程序法的第131條請求權時效的消滅的部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12629.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12656.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
他的請求權呢是如果是義務的話不是請求權時效消滅而是權力的消滅這個部分呢我們也查過憲法上面的相關的解釋的部分的規範那以上幾點提供給張委員參考是政府在民國93年3月1號修法以後實施這個新的辦法嘛第一時間真的是太久這是一個第二個責任在你啊你代夫職守那你現在把這個全部的責任甩鍋叫民眾去負擔老實講 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12657.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12660.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
這個也不公平但是我們現在如果沒有做的話就是我們堵職啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12665.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12686.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
你現在賭職,你們在21年前就賭職了啊,是不是你現在甩鍋叫民眾去處理,你應該用一個比較完整,比較能夠讓民眾解決問題的方法嘛所以我剛剛主動提了,我們提了你們現在的六大排除,你說你們解決方案就是六大排除嘛太窄化了,你現在解決了,大概是打折打折打折,再打折解決了一小部分的人嘛,你就把他全部放寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12688.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12711.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
全部放寬,不要只採用六大類的牌子怎麼會不符合法律上面的規範?怎麼會不符合呢?那我們就修法啊台灣民眾黨非常負責任,我們提出修法我們非常負責任,我就是在你執行之前的民國93年的3.1號之前的一定用拒絕的方式,不是只有六大類全部都可以用拒絕的,那在這個時間點之後的範圍,我們就授權由 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12712.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12734.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
陸委會跟內政部你再訂一個標準出來可是我剛剛明確講了民眾清楚的反映你的六類的排除範圍太窄太小了我們要照顧全部的民眾報告委員您可以去問一下這兩天在移民署裡面辦理的部分其實都還算是很順利如果有任何疑慮的話我們還是會充分來說明那天陸委會主委跟副主委有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12735.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12762.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
但是是從星期一才開始有任何宜蘭雜症進來他們有困擾我們現在都把案子就轉到你移民署跟陸委會去了我們希望你速度要加快可是我剛剛講的是根本要解決的一個要解決的一個方案第一個不要再出現去了找不到人或者電話找不到打不通這個事情而且要幫忙解決問題特別剛剛講的陸委會主委承諾我的他去了他可以馬上查清楚他到底在大陸我沒有戶籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12763.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12784.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
這個之前一團亂啊這個是你們有責任的舉證責任而且有公權力嘛你們才查得到嘛所以要讓全國民眾知道喔你從今天開始你只要去移民署去陸委會你就會很清楚知道說你在大陸到底有沒有戶籍有的話甚至你要到哪一個公安去辦這陸委會主委都有承諾了我們清楚把它講清楚那第二個根本要解決問題我剛才說的時間太久遠了21年前的 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12787.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12805.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
你也允許六大類的拒絕就全面在民國93.3號全面的允許他拒絕至於之後的我們就授權你們去把它訂清楚把這個六大類排除再擴大一點好不好 不過我們來解決問題我們會提出修法 已經會送到委員會去審查了 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12806.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12827.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
我們來檢討改進因為這個事情影響真的很大我們來檢討改進但是法律的一致性還是要一致執行比較好可是政府自己的事實跟事務不要讓民眾來承受這種不可能有破口跟天窗那是一個家破人亡我們沒有造成家破人亡啊你如果把它取消了它的戶籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12829.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12843.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
現在沒有這樣的案例啊你現在不是現在盡情事嗎現在多少家庭在擔心這個事情所以部長你是明確做先事不會有取消任何人戶籍然後不會把人起訴嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12844.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12859.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
我們是依法辦事我們是依法行政我們依法行政我們說沒有要你保證你又不能保證所以這個問題存在嘛我們要去把這個問題要解決啊就好像我們在處理那個陸配如果陸配裡面有人是帶有那個特殊任務來的時候你要不要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12860.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12878.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
要不要處理你現在在處理這個事情把它處理好如果有特殊的你就特殊去處理嘛是 所以如果你一律用拒絕的方式的話反而是包庇跟姑息不要把全部的陸配都想成是有問題的沒有我們已經講得非常清楚了我們非常尊重但是台灣是一個有法律的地方我們是按照法律你們把每個人都當成是有問題在處理嘛是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12882.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12885.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
下一位我們請林楚瑩委員林楚瑩委員林楚瑩委員不在蔡益委員蔡益委員蔡益委員不在下一位我們請邱志偉委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12912.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12933.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
謝謝主席 主席我會議請問一下今天練習是4分鐘還是4加104分鐘但通常我們原則上為了鼓勵委員多質詢我們今天時間還可以因為我們後面還要處理無邊際的質詢我們都知道邱志文委員做準時這是基本的會議的程序我覺得內政委員會時間過得比較慢等一下4分鐘就變14分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12939.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12957.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
好 先請內政部 劉世芳部長休息一下因為上面之前的質詢 你站太久了請張榮興 張署長好 張署長有請好 環境部也好 好不好 環境部跟交通部交通部監理師胡副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12959.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12984.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
我來示範一下什麼是160秒咨詢4分鐘240秒請相關單位現行噪音管制法第六條規定製造不具持續性或不予測量足以妨礙他人生活安寧聲音者由警察機關依社會符合72條來做處理對不對這個署長你有沒有去過日本去過有沒有搭乘過日本的交通工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12986.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13007.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
沒有 我都是坐他們的遊覽車遊覽車或者是他們的地下鐵或者是他們的新幹線在交通運輸工具裡面是不能講電話的很明確不能講電話你知道嗎包括巴士裡面 公用巴士裡面包括他們的新幹線你去車廂跟車廂之間的車間他有一個讓你打電話區域 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13012.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13038.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
嚴格執行而且大家彼此變成一個他們的這個生活的一個習慣我們現在大家都用通訊軟體對不對對他們的傳收嘟嘟嘟嘟噗噗那聲音你們聽過有啊哇就差了我是每天搭高鐵三個半小時如果說隔壁比較誇張直接用擴音講電話他家祖宗十八代我都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13041.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13068.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
你只用擴音 擴音沒關係這個屬於個案 極端個案但是很普遍一般都是使用電話 大聲地講電話再來 他用通訊軟體在傳收那種聲音 持續性我一定 我的電話絕對是靜音啊任何狀況絕對是靜音這個部分是不是要學習日本的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13069.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13082.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
考慮一下交通部這個你們應該要多加宣導然後是不是可以學習日本的做法多一點的宣導然後是不是用法律來做一些的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13085.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13110.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
這個我先請教一下署長署長這個如果說其他先進的國家有這樣的一個制度的話我們的法律如果能夠規範完整那也教育我們的民眾來做這樣的實施我覺得這是先進國家的做法是嘛人家日本都做得到而且落實到所有的公共公共載具公共的這個運輸工具喔所以這個已經形之有臉而且每一個人的生活習慣就彼此不要太自私 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13111.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13116.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
不要個人的這個方便然後影響別人的這個作息的這個案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13117.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13142.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
這個警政署要注意因為你們採取是你們在採取嘛對不對沒有如果說是這個鐵路上的這些狀況應該是有鐵路法的規範鐵路鐵路法鐵路法規定可是你這是那現在這個不預測量這些如果說其他的噪音如果說屬於在中環沒有的話才適用這個設置法來規範所以鐵路法是交通部主管對不對交通部看法怎麼樣交通部來 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13144.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13156.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
跟委員報告 其實我們現在都有在做一些宣導像是像鐵路的車廂啊 網播都沒有用 有沒有家鄉巡查有沒有辦法這個路法 這個可以討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13158.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13178.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
日本 我不曉得他有沒有入法 沒有入法 也沒有相關的法治但是他們的這個國民就遵守這個生活習慣這個基本上是有公德心的這個要落實在教育 落實在很多的宣導 這很重要那如果真的還是沒有辦法改善是不是有相關的法律可以採取 這個你們可以要去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13179.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13200.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我們現在其實像我們的相關包括公務法包括鐵路法相關的一個規定就是對於說已經有造成其他乘客影響的狀況下是可以做一些法規上的處理這個我已經深受困擾十幾年 因為搭十幾年高鐵 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13202.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13220.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
我想每一個搭高鐵變成我們的日常生活通勤的習慣這個部分你們要去思考面對我資訊到了我要示範什麼叫做非常優質的質詢不是四加十主席你也大概了解一下謝謝最準時的邱志偉委員的質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13223.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13245.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
好 我也跟大家報告一下原則上因為今天下午我們本來就有法條的審查啦那原則上我們都會希望每個委員把自己的立場清楚表達那只要清楚表達之後如果真的真的有像剛剛那樣講不完的情況之下那我們當然就會適時的來做一下處理好 下一位請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在請王宏威委員王宏威委員王宏威委員不在好現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13247.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13268.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束丁薛忠委員所提出書面記錄6月6日記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會報告委員會我們現在進行法案條文宣讀請宣讀討論事項所列法案之條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13269.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13291.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
第9條委員嚴寬寒等16人提案序文之左列文字修正為下列第一項第三款修正為精神好弱或聽覺語言障礙者其餘同先行條文第64條委員羅廷偉等16人提案第二款修正為二非公自用購買運輸票遊樂票券藝文票券運動票券醫療票券餐旅食宿票券各式休閒及商品 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13292.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13315.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
票卷而意图转售盈利者及转售图利者其余同信息条文文高金素美等21人提案虚文之左列修正为下列其余同委员罗廷伟等16人提案文王宏威等24人提案虚文之罚还提高为新台币38000元38000元以下罚还第二款修正为而非公自用购买运输游乐票卷一文票卷运动票卷医疗票卷 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13315.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13331.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
参旅时速票券各式休闲及产品票券而意图转售盈利者及转售图利者其余同现行条文委员林思明等22人提案训文修正为有下列各款行为之一者处3月以下聚联或新台币38000元以下罚还 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13331.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13348.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
第二款修正为二,非公司用户非经相关主办单位授权购买运输票、游乐票券、艺文票券、运动竞赛票券、医疗票券、参旅时速票券、其他娱乐休闲票券或商品折扣票券并转售或搭售方式图例者,其余同现行条文。 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13349.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13376.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
台湾民众党党团提案序文修正为有下列各款行为之一者处三日以下拘留或新台币三万元以下罚款第二款修正为二非公资用购买运输游乐票券医疗括号支票券而意图转售盈利者及而转售图利者其余同现行条文文秋若华等19人提案第二款修正为非公资用购买运输游乐票券医疗括号支票券而意图转售盈利者及图利者其余同台湾民众党党团提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13377.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13393.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
第七十二条台湾民众党党团提案虚文修正为有下列各款行为之一者处新台币一万八千元以下罚还其余同线型条文文秋若华等19人提案虚文修正为有下列各款行为之一者处新台币一万元以下罚还其余同线型条文 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13394.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13419.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
第89条委员鲁明哲等17人提案虚文修正为有下列各款行为之一者处3日以下拘留或新台币3万元以下罚还第二款修正为二无正当理由跟踪或骚扰他人金券组不听者其余同性情条文委员宽恒等16人提案第一项虚文修正为有下列各款行为之一者处新台币10万元以下罚还第二款修正为 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13419.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13440.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
二 無正當理由騷擾或跟蹤他人 經勸阻不聽者增訂第二項對未成年人有前二項行為者加重處罰至二分之一 其餘同現行條文委員魯明哲等十八人提案 序文修正為由左列各款行為之一者處三日以下拘留或薪台幣三萬元以下罰還其餘同委員魯明哲等十七人提案 宣讀完畢好 謝謝 我們現在休息用餐 下午一點繼續開會 現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
16297.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
16301.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
文案報告委員會我們繼續開會現在請宣讀修正動議跟附帶決議修正動議第64條第一項罰款提高為新台幣三萬元以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
16312.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
16333.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
第1项第2款修正为非工资用购买运输票、游乐票券、医疗票券、参旅时速票券、各式休闲及商品票券而意图转售盈利者及转售图利者增订第2项至第6项前项第2款以超过票面金额或定价贩售者按票券张数由主管机关处票面金额或定价之10倍至50倍罚还 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
16334.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
16342.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
以虛偽資料或其他不正方式利用電腦或其他相關設備購買第一項第二款票券取得定票或取票憑證者應按票券章數因該 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
16343.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
16366.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
处罚条款至最高罚还才罚主管机关对于检举查获第一项第二款规定之行为除应对检举人身份资料严守秘密外并得着于奖励对于检举人身份资料之保密与诉讼程序一同第一项第二款主管机关受理检举案件之管辖处理期间保密检举人奖励及其他应遵行事项之办法由中央主管机关定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
16367.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
16376.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
本条第一项第二款制裁罚准则由中央主管机关定之其余同性行条文提案人文高金素美等四人附带决议 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
16377.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
16402.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
有鉴于目前凡财网络抢票限量预约机制的资源几乎都成了黄牛套利的目标黄牛无所不在反应的正式制度破洞与政府长期失能本次修正社会秩序维护法不只是为了打击黄牛更是要守住公平社会的基本规则然若修法后没有搭配专责人力与调查机制恐怕又会重蹈文化部的覆车民众踊跃检举确实 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
16403.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
16404.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
好 謝謝那我們現在進行主條討論我們用協商的方式來處理 現在進行協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
16462.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
16467.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
我先確認一下大家手上都有包含修正動議在內的資料嗎修正動議跟附帶決議我們先確認一下好這個法案總共現在四個條文要處理啦那我們今天目標應該還算是收束範圍啦看看有沒有辦法達成一定的共識但是如果沒有的話我們花一點點時間都來討論我認為是沒有問題的那就請大家踴躍發言踴躍表達意見我們一條一條來好不好這個首先 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
16491.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
16507.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
第九條的修正案這個嚴況委員有委託本席來做處理他的意思是這樣因為這個有身心障礙權利公約嘛就希望把這個有歧視性意涵的這個語言來做一個消除所以他希望把所謂的英雅人改成聽覺跟語言障礙的人但是我也跟大家報告一下我們包含看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
16509.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
16526.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
各部會的說明都有提到嘛就是伊亞人是有一個特殊的定義嘛就是要有先天性而且等於是不能講話也聽不到才符合他當初的一個定義那行政機關這裡的意思是說既然行政法法已經有相關的一些規範其實可以甚至就整條不要處理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
16526.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
16550.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
那我聽一下各位委員針對這樣子處置的一個方法或者是說有沒有別的方法比如說有比英雅人不具歧視性的一些名詞然後他可以維持相關的這樣子的一個意義有沒有這樣子的一些說法我們請各位委員或行政機關發表意見我們請衛福部先說一下來衛福部就針對歧視性語言等等相關的部分可不可以做一下說明謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
16570.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
16591.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
好 報告委員 那個因為這個歧視信用語這個部分他這個話應該是屬於我們另外一個社交所的一個業務所以說這個部分我們今天目前是沒有接到一個訊息要去回應這個議題好 這個部分可能這個地方可能比較抱歉 謝謝不是嘛 你說明一下英雅人到底是不是一個共通的對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
16596.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
16610.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
社交署這邊是建議主管機關的建議那就是尊重就是主管機關在業務執行上面去判斷說任何人聽覺障礙才具有無識別能力的話才能免除那我們這邊是沒有其他的建議 謝謝來保護就是他這樣公開就是他沒意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
16630.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
16640.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
主席跟委員說明就如內政部書面報告所述因為英雅人這幾個字他是早期立法就用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
16641.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
16661.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那如果參考社會法這一條的立法目立法說明當時的立法理由還有司法院司法院對刑事責任因雅人也曾經做出解釋那綜合這兩個角度來看所謂的因雅人大概他的內涵是指 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
16662.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
16673.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
從小時候自幼然後既陰且雅就是說耳朵跟語言能力都喪失了這個狀況所以他的要件是很嚴謹的那委員的提案用的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
16676.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
16702.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
聽覺或者是語言障礙那聽覺跟語言障礙的程度可能有重度、中度、輕度它的範圍會比較廣所以如果議委的提案這樣修它不是只有名詞的改變而已它的適用內涵也會有出入跟社會法原本的立法的印亞人這個定義會有出入所以我想內政部才會有提出這一個書面說明那第二個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
16703.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
16728.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
目前行政法法因為行政秩序法也是行政處罰的一種範圍之內那行政法法對於這個責任能力的規定他在第第九條第九條他不是用陰陽人他是用辨識能力有沒有欠缺的問題就是說是不是心神障礙精神障礙或這個其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
16731.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
16757.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
心神障礙或心智缺陷等於從這個角度去辨別有沒有辨識能力他沒有再用陰雅人去判定責任能力了所以如果主管機關因為社會法主管機關在內政部如果主管機關他們認為說整個回歸到行政法法就可以了責任能力整個回歸到行政法法不要再這一條又特別去寫陰雅人那我想這個我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
16758.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
16785.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
尊重主管機關的意見這個部分我就沒有意見我只想請教一下如果照這樣修法聽覺或語言障礙者對重聽跟口級算不算在裡面如果你要如果從字面文藝解釋你只要有這兩種的障礙都包括在裡面但是它程度有高有低所以它的範圍是很廣那印亞人的範圍是很窄 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
16786.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
16791.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
會有這個問題 所以它不是名詞的觀感問題 它會有定義適用的問題啦好 李博主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
16796.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
16817.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
因為我知道現在刑法20條裡面也有鷹啞人的行為得減輕其刑對那如果照這個如果我們要來討論這個修法的邏輯要把鷹啞人改成聽障或語言障礙人士的話第一個有剛剛你講的程度輕重的問題之外那刑法這個要不要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
16819.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
16836.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
因為刑法那個是刑事責任的領域啦那社會秩序法他是行政處罰行政法秩序法的領域這是兩個不一樣的那當然那邊黨早期立法的時候可能有去參考刑法的這個用語啦好謝謝吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
16842.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
16869.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
不好意思不好意思不好意思我再請教當初特別講英雅人應該是在刑法在什麼對這些如果他犯罪可以減輕其刑或什麼的用意吧對對嘛所以這個定義應該要準確嘛所以司法院司法院才針對這英雅人這個名詞特別做出解釋來OK好謝謝我的問題是這樣我再請一下社家署好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
16869.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
16885.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
因為這我們剛剛要問的問題並不是針對這個法條的問題是伊亞人到底在現在的這個身心障礙公約等等的規定裡面他算不算歧視性名詞嘛這第一個第二個就是說如果他屬於歧視性名詞的話什麼樣的名詞可以完全的替代這樣的範圍嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
16886.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
16908.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
因為按照現在委員提案的版本顯然它的範圍是不一樣的嘛以前現在嬰雅人是取交集嘛聽不到這個不能講話而且要先天性三者的交集才叫嬰雅人可是按照現在的版本聽覺原狀變連集嘛就只要有通通算嘛所以表示這個用詞不夠精準要調整那問題是怎麼調整才能夠符合本來的定義但是又沒有歧視性這才是這條的關鍵我們是不是請社交組說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
16912.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
16933.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
聽障跟語言障礙者他就是如果又聽障又語障的話其實我們就是稱作聽語障那我們就是有透過鑑定的制度然後會取得這個身份那其實是比較以社會福利的這個身份的制度去看待那因為我們自己組內討論的時候是就是覺得說如果是改成聽障與聽語障的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
16935.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
16948.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
對我們來講的話當然是比較就是這個名詞是比較中性一點但因為就是今天也有看到說就是司法院的這個議事的解釋之後我們有回去就是我有先跟我們主管討論過這件事情那因為這個部分的話就是聽語障的範圍是其實是比較大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
16952.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
16978.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
那也是剛剛如同法務部的長官講說就是其實它的障礙程度也有落差那剛剛提到的重聽或是可能就是還甚至不到就是拿到帳別的身份的這種狀態下的話如果把它擴大成這樣的話是不是對原本的立法一直來講是比較寬鬆的所以我們主管這邊是對於這件事這個名詞的話目前就是我們可能如果要再做調整的話要後續就是要再回去署內再去進行做研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
16987.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
17008.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
她的意思是說確實是有一點歧視性但是要怎麼樣精準的符合過去那個英雅人的這樣一個版本好像還沒有一個很合適的名詞大概是這個意思嘛對不對對 她說有 她剛剛的回答是覺得有一些這樣子的意味啦來 再說明一下吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
17011.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
17040.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
其實在身障者的看待來講的話就是身障者看到確實會有感覺到比較不舒服的感覺比較沒有那麼中性啦但是因為這個名詞其實看起來也是是一個名詞的概念就是它敘述這個人的身體的狀況但對身障者來講的話他會認為說這好像沒有那麼的中性那如果你改成聽障或聽語障的話來講他覺得會比較是中性的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
17044.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
17048.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
主席,我聽他這樣說,大廢話真的,說這個米不好,要改議員障礙你又說不可以這樣改,還要回去討論今天你又知道要修這個法律,應該沒有事先討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
17069.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
17075.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
對嗎?你最起碼這件故事 你說有歧視那你們有這個感覺 你們感冒這幾天接著說今天要收這個回來要討論一下那你這樣說 根本是要怎麼收下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
17092.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
17113.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
你剛才沒聽到蔣威夷說的意思,他說要改,可能要改給什麼可以代表可以接受,還是他這個名詞的詢問是法律上的要這樣規定,跟你們都沒說到重點,以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
17118.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
17125.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
謝謝王美惠委員這個希望行政機關多用點心啦好不好你剛剛講社交組說還要再研議你多久研議出來用麥克風講 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
17129.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
17155.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
應該是說我們本來是尊重委員的提案就是改成這現在的版本但因為因為他們法律事務範圍不一樣所以就不只是這個問題所以就是就是看到內政部這個這個早上我們是有先詢問過主管的話是覺得說如果內政部因為他是執法的主管機關那如果他們的他們的認定是這樣的就是在處理就是進行的狀況是可以處理的話我們就沒有要覺得一定就是就是可以尊重他們現在提出的這個文字的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
17155.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
17184.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
那我們本來一開始在署內討論的時候是尊重委員提案的版本好好謝謝社家署好我現在要進入我們每個題目我們都花一點點時間討論就好好然後我們就今天有共識就可以有共識沒有共識我們還會再排時間大家不用擔心那另外一個是現在我們看到這個行政機關書面報告的一個概念啦就是說因為行政法法已經可以涵蓋這個範圍所以他乾脆就把這個等於是陰陽人就直接把它刪掉嘛就改改真精神後悔者 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
17190.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
17195.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
來內政部麻煩說明一下因為你們現在給的修法意見是乾脆把它刪除因為行政法法可以判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
17198.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
17222.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
沒有 我覺得他寫得蠻清楚沒關係 我們請羅師傅幫我們說明一下剛好我們聽到那個法務部的見解其實跟我們所寫的很相近就是現在的行政法法第九條裡面把這個陰雅人這三個字刪掉然後他所列的這個文字上就是寫說行為時因為精神障礙或其他心智缺陷等等等等等等又把它寫進去就是他描述一個狀態等於不是說用聽語障因為聽語障的範圍跟所謂的陰雅人確實不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
17227.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
17254.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
那這樣子呢是不是我們在因為這個是行政法法嘛所以那個這樣子的是不是會比較相同啦大概是有這樣子的見解那而且我們也寫在書面報告裡面就是這樣的提案是不是建議刪除印亞人的規定然後不要用這個那個顏寬恒委員所提到的所謂的身心障礙權利公約裡面的聽與障人士以上對啊所以他確實是要刪除蘇曉慧委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
17255.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
17276.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
不好意思所以延續我早上的這個質詢一樣就是我一樣是對於這個書面報告的這個文字其實有點不太懂故對這個第二頁你書面報告第二頁嘛表示你對這次提案的狀況內政部故對於本次提案建議刪除英雅人之規定這句話到底是什麼意思啊就所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
17284.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
17311.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
就改成精神耗弱者這樣嗎精神耗弱者然後或嬰雅人他就要把它拿掉啊直接刪掉對所以不是做文字修正這邊是直接刪掉或嬰雅人四個字這是內政部的對我想對所以我說我們寫的不是很清楚就是本次提案建議刪除嬰雅人的規定應該是說嬰雅人這三個字不是規定啦規定不是我們規定的那因為我們有參考就是司法院的1700號的解釋意旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
17313.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
17338.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
所以以後嬰雅人不以保護部上面的見解會比較清楚啦就沒有要檢清處罰就對了啦應該說他就是用行政法法如果要確定他可以欠缺辨識行為能力不採用顏寬恆的版本應該是這樣說然後如果要的話就把我知道我知道但是因為我們又覺得嬰雅人這三個字好像在字面上有歧視的意思剛剛衛福部的同仁是這樣說嘛這樣就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
17344.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
17359.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
所以移除其實也會影響法律效果嘛因為行政法法講的是因為各種狀況以至於欠缺辨識行為能力者嘛所以不見得英雅人就一定符合了法律對不對第一個我們是希望維持原來的都不動這是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
17360.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
17381.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
這是一個那但是因為大家在討論就是英雅人會有歧視所以可不可以要改要改的話聽語障那個範圍又擴充太大那所以我們才說那可以採用其他的說法就是把英雅人者或是或英雅人這三個字劃掉或是把它取消掉所以這兩個讓委員來參考啦來旁邊要補充沒關係直接補充沒關係啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
17391.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
17410.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
各位好如果說還是要維持現行英雅人這樣子的範圍但是用詞上因為要尊重就是聽覺語言障礙者這樣子的用詞的話那是不是就是另外譬如說以另外一項去說明說這個聽覺語言障礙者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
17414.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
17437.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
限於自幼就是自幼及據聽覺語言障礙者這樣子就是他在字面文藝上還有他的意思上都會跟本來英雅人的範圍是相同的然後他的文字也不會就是有歧視的意味我就想聽這個如果可以寫出一個來 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
17440.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
17445.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
我們這條先保留我們進下一條討論你剛剛把你的這個字面我最後確認一下我們首先我們在處理這個條文我們在處理的是第九條下列各款之人的行為得減輕處罰所以我們是要先辨識我們這一屆委員現在很慎重的把社會秩序維護法拿出來討論哪些人可以減輕處罰我們是否同意一二三項我們的這個範圍到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
17466.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
17469.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
所以首先我們必須處理我們有這個聽覺我們有這個說話這個障礙到所謂過往其實陰涯陰涯也不過就是文言文陰和雅這樣的狀況這種類別人到底要不要讓他減輕其刑這是我們第一個應該要決定的層次嘛他是不是在得減輕其刑的範疇內 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
17487.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
17504.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
如果大家都同意它依然應該要維持在範疇內那我們要試著去想出一個適合的文字來描述符合現代的社會用語好 那接下來我們在處理這個文字用語的時候有沒有可以比過往的英雅更適合詮釋的狀況或我們因此也要調整它的狀態嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
17508.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
17532.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
那目前為止現在如果想得出來對啊他剛剛就提出來就是這個概念就是他叫什麼先天性聽語障者之類的嘛但是那個是已經在後期了我們要先決定音雅的這個部分音雅就是他要先原本的音雅我們是不是要繼續放在範圍裡面大家現在要同意是還是不是嘛我想沒有人應該不會反對吧我覺得也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
17532.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
17559.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
大家這次的修法一直並沒有要把它拿掉沒有要拿掉所以我們如果想不出更好的名詞的話唯一可以處理的狀況應該是用現行條文繼續保留才對啊怎麼會這永遠因噎廢食呢你想不出一個更好的詞彙結果變成說哎呀因為我想不出詞彙我就把它從剪清期限這邊拿掉這很奇怪吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
17560.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
17588.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
報告委員因為英雅的這個定義一到現行司法院已經有解釋那是把司法院解釋的文字我們參考然後對你就寫出一個新的文字我覺得我徵詢一下委員們在場審查委員們就我們都不要拿掉嘛只是要把它修一個比較中性的名詞然後概念一模一樣嘛對不對我想提案委員看回的意思也是這樣那我們就這樣那我們就請行政機關準備一下好不好你剛剛有提出一個蠻接近的版本先把它寫出來可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
17590.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
17607.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
好你先選擇我們這條先保留好64條這條大概要花比較長的時間來做討論大家充分發言針對黃牛票的部分範疇法規進行的部分來怎麼來處理還有罰則大概定什麼樣的程度請各位委員充分發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
17607.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
17622.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
警告局委員對跟召委跟在場的委員們說明一下我有一個修正動議那大家看一下修正動議的前項第二款那個部分那個文字我們物質上去了那一整塊拿掉那一款整個拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
17623.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
17648.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
前項第二款已超過票面金額或定價販售者按票卷章數由主管機關處票面金額或定價之十倍至五十倍的罰款這個拿掉這一整段拿掉因為第六十四條上面已經有講說各款行為之一者處三日以下拘留或新台幣三萬元以下罰款這個部分已經有了所以那一整個拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
17648.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
17674.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
接著下來就是我多了這個第二項第三項第四項第五項然後這個部分呢當然就是在第三項裡面我們有吹哨者的這個部分然後第四項裡面呢是希望能夠有那個第三項是檢舉人然後第四項呢是按照消保處建議要針對一不正方式輸入電腦的這些的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
17677.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
17688.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
然後第五項的話我們是希望由中央主管機關中央主管就內政部第一項的第二款裁罰的準則由他們來定以上說明一下謝謝好 請黃教練 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
17693.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
17711.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
好那我的意见跟早上质询的时候一样因为其实现在文创法是罚的更重那我认为要二纸黄牛回归文创法里面的罚则的要件跟他的罚金会比较好因为其实文创法里面是直接提五倍到 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
17713.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
17742.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
50倍嘛然後裡面的要件也寫得很明確必須要高於票面的金額那樣子要去開罰是比較明確的不會因為說像社會法裡面過去被人詬病的就是因為他寫到說非公自用然後是要轉售等等因為這一些文字的不明確導致一直抓不到黃牛這就是過去為什麼大家一直跟我們澄清說希望一定要有一個很明確可以抓到黃牛的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
17743.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
17769.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
所以才會修了文創法當時的修法的過程是這樣那現在如果我們又在這邊設違法裡面要訂一些黃牛的罰則那我會認為其實無濟於事啦因為就是你這樣訂下去之後大家還是罰不到最後我們還是會用文創法去罰而且那個是罰得很重的而且甚至是那個罰則就是除了說五倍到五十倍然後也有說要罰三百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
17770.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
17775.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
那那個其實我是覺得會比較有效也是真的可以對症下藥啦我的意見是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
17777.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
17805.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
好謝謝再請高卿委員我想黃協委員可能沒有看到修正動力的部分那我們在64條本領會講藝文票卷跟運動票卷那藝文票卷已經拿掉了運動票卷也拿掉了因為這個是在這個文創法跟運廠法或者是鐵路法就有了那目前我們講到的是目前沒有專法的部分那怎麼樣先來補漏洞所以呢你看一下第一項的第二款 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
17806.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
17832.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
非公自用購買運輸票遊樂票券醫療票券參與時數票券各式休閒及商品票券而意圖轉售營利者還有轉售圖利者這個部分是沒有包括在所謂的文創法跟運產法跟鐵路法裡面被保障到的所以您麻煩您看一下修正動議的第一項第二款以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
17834.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
17855.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
好 謝謝我們還有委員有意見嗎我們請先請法務部說明一下好不好因為我覺得這一條我們的文字上大家要斟酌一下啦包含有沒有跟其他法條打架嘛還有說現在增列的這些東西會是一個什麼樣的一個狀況我們是不是請行政機關做一下說明好 美惠委員好 美惠委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
17856.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
17877.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
就是在這裡有很多委員在說我們的修法的理由就是裡面有說要發未遂的那個未遂的是不是有問題什麼叫做未遂啊請法務部跟內政部它的行政法裡面的處罰裡面有發未遂的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
17883.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
17884.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
在這個問題 我覺得有很多委員體在裡面我們這個法 就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
17891.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
17904.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
他規定要發三萬塊,但是我們裡面的有到當年後是發六萬塊的啦在社會委員會裡面第19條就有規定,最多可以發到三萬塊啦所以我覺得我們的法律是不是自己的,要自己想辦法因為我覺得這個問題也很大關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
17920.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
17937.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
現在還有一個問題,代表有說貴公用自用的購買運輸票啦譬如這樣說,利用者如果寄票,送的時候要買起來,他再去買,他買的價錢又多少,跟這要算什麼,以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
17946.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
17960.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
我覺得這個原法裡面當然第二款裡面是說非公自用購買運輸遊樂券那運輸我們簡單講就是車票嘛那車票當然這一部分我們支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
17961.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
17978.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
就是原條文但是這一個修正動議我首先肯定已經先把藝文票券跟運動票券拿掉我首先肯定但是我還是要提出一個問題出來餐飲食宿票券這個可能會牽涉到有一些市場的關係比如說自助餐券 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
17979.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
17997.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
支付餐券他如果有優待,然後到時候是原價賣,那他有沒有獲利?有,但是這件事情會不會發生?很容易發生喔,就是比如說原價一萬塊十張但是他一個人進去可能是一千二一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
17999.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
18016.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
那就發生了喔所以這個我們是不是應該要拿出來討論一下或者是餐飲食宿票券它有很多喔它有可能住宿券有沒有含早餐有沒有優惠我覺得這有很多都是市場的因素齁這把它入法進來可能會有造成一些問題我覺得可以討論一下 謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
18023.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
18045.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
這一條大概是這樣有幾個啦一個就是罰則嘛但我覺得罰則就罰三萬大家應該不會有意見因為大家都覺得黃流行為很猖獗嘛這個就是規範專法未及之部分嘛當然應該從那剛剛那個王美惠有講到19條有規定對你在社會法裡面基本上所有的罰的最高就是三萬那我們就罰則的部分應該罰三萬大家應該不會有意見嘛現在意見是範圍嘛跟一些相關的配套措施嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
18046.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
18074.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
對啊 我們現在先討論修正動議嘛我們現在以高居委員修正動議為主嘛因為先處理修正動議嘛 對不對所以其實今天這樣大體討論就是收束成同一個版本嘛這樣才是符合修正法律的這個初衷嘛所以前面有要去寫抄文當然要配合修正動議來做調整所以我覺得就是罰三萬那再來就是範圍的部分嘛剛剛體育議員因為有專法規定就不用再寫了 避免法條打架嘛那剩下的部分好 看大家有沒有意見來 另外一個我們請行政機關來做一下說明啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
18076.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
18103.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
來我先請法務部好了這個對法條的邏輯各項各方面有一定的專業的代表性針對剛剛我們這樣討論過來的修正動議有沒有一些想法對還有有關於這個意圖未遂的部分要怎麼樣來定怎麼樣來定OK好請法務部說明一下主席各位那我想分幾個層次第一個就是說因為我們現在高金委員的修正動議他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
18106.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
18113.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
拿掉那個藝文票卷跟運動票卷但是呢也新增加了像醫療票卷餐飲旅宿 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
18115.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
18137.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
還有其他休閒跟商品票券那這些原本是現行條文沒有的那早上主管機關內政部這邊也花了蠻多篇幅在解釋這個問題就是說在政策面政策面要不要在社會法加上這些東西我想這個是一個最大的一個分野點這個是建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
18139.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
18169.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
大約能夠先釐清因為放進去跟不放進去就會影響到後續的這個立法作業那第二個就是說剛剛委員有提到了就是說我們現行的社委法它的立法結構第二款的立法結構是這樣它的前提是非公自用然後購買什麼樣的票券去轉售盈利 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
18171.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
18187.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
這樣的一個體力其實要處理的都是票券黃流問題近年來的立法趨勢大概文創條例跟運動產業發展條例都是112年最新立法的也是要解決這一類的票券問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
18188.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
18203.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
那我歸納的結果就是說這兩部法一個文創條例10條之一跟運產條例24條之一他用的立法結構不是這樣他用的立法結構很簡單他不去管他前段 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
18204.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
18230.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
自用或非自用 將某一類的票券高於票名的金額或定價去販售者他的動詞行為形態就是抓販售還有加價 大概就這兩個類型那前半段的非公自用等等這些他就不放了 因為這些可能在試用上會有像剛剛委員還有黃委員可能有參與到文創條例的制定過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
18230.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
18246.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
所以我想文章條例跟運產條例的這個行為結構我想算是在處理這種票券黃牛上算是一個比較先進的立法例這個我是建議如果要真的要放進去要修的話這個可以來參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
18247.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
18271.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
另外剛剛那個王委員提到的就是計未稅這個問題這確實是一個問題目前行政處罰行政法法上它並沒有特別去區分計稅跟未稅在刑事處罰上很明確未稅犯他一定要法律明定才可以處罰但到行政法法上它並沒有去區分計稅跟未稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
18272.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
18288.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
另外參考文創條例跟院產條例他們立法上也沒有特別區別早上文化部他們也有在對藝文票券在做解釋就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
18289.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
18302.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
在他們的處罰行政機關的職權解釋上所謂的販售他並不以整個完成為必要就是說你左手進行販售的行為他們本來就文創條例認為都是在他們處罰範圍之內所以所謂的未遂 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
18308.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
18325.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
這一個內涵是不是就一定要特別再發文字去做修正我想這個可以參考文創條例跟運採條例的制定還有實施的一個狀況來參考以上報告那我們先請蘇小慧委員然後黃婕委員高經緯還要補充嗎然後高經緯好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
18332.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
18361.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
好 謝謝法務部的解釋我想首先在座各位委員大家每一個人都希望能夠處理社會在重視的這些黃牛票券的問題因為我們現在已經是第11屆了前面有文創法的這部分還有運產的部分大家也都可以看到一個剛剛法務部也說明了一個新型態的在專法上面的立法方式其實是還不錯大家應該可以參考的 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
18361.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
18385.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
好那我們就回來今天這個64條剛剛主席這邊也幫大家整理了三個爭點第一個是範圍第二個是這個罰金的罰款這個罰款的金額再來第三個是是不是要處理意圖的部分三個爭點那我想從第一個這個範圍的部分來講大家剛剛竟然可以看到說如果有專法在處理的時候其實是更明確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
18386.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
18406.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
那麼今天我們用高金委員的修正動議來看其實增加的是醫療票券、參旅時速票券以及各式休閒及商品票券增加了這三款那我想請問等一下這個看是內政部甚至是防護部可以解釋一下在現行條文當中的遊樂票券指的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
18408.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
18432.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
遊樂票券是否就可以包含了旅宿時數 參旅時數各式休閒商品因為你的遊樂票券是應該不可能當初只有訂去遊樂園這種東西才叫做遊樂票券吧這不可能當時是這樣解釋的所以是否這個詞彙的概念已經可以包含了修正動議中間的後兩項 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
18433.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
18455.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
那麼這樣子是否這個部分就可以不用再大家可以考慮不用再修正那就只剩下醫療票券那我必須在這裡提出提醒大家一下我參考啦我跟大家分享我覺得醫療票券其實反而是一個造成社會不太懂得一個新的概念那我自己其實呢曾經在這個醫療法這邊試著想要增訂過22條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
18458.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
18473.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
就是呢在處理這個不管是掛號也好或者是任何的這個醫療資源搶佔的部分我認為是政府應保障民眾使用醫療資源的平等權益任何人不得加價販售醫療服務之權利違法販售者按販售金額處100倍至500倍的罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
18479.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
18507.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
我覺得這種所有醫療行為相關的我們廣稱為所謂的醫療黃牛的這個狀況應該是在醫療法這邊也如同文創法一樣用專法來處理也才能夠把所有我們所痛恨的這種所謂醫療黃牛的部分可以專業來處理所以這是我建議的狀況我們是不是重新定義重新請法務部內任務解釋清楚遊樂票券是否可以涵蓋現在大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
18508.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
18524.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
在意的部分那我建議醫療的部分其實不要再吝嗇名詞而是回到醫療法處理這是我對範圍的部分那第二個部分的話我認為金額的部分訪問金額呢其實真的大家應該要考慮一下整部法的一致性和橫平性啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
18524.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
18533.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
所以最後的數額到底要列在哪裡這個我尊重大家的意見最後這個意圖我還是一樣這個我覺得這個是行政法我們還是尊重一下各法的體系體力的狀態那如果大家不喜歡的這個這個這個意圖就只要有行動了我們就應該抓這個是不是應該再回到專法裡面當時的這個新型態的立法來處理會比較好簡而言之我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
18553.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
18566.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
可以修正 可以討論 但可能沒有必要到高金委員的這個版本 不好意思這是我的意見啦 那請大家參考好 我們剛剛是黃婕蕙對不對 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
18570.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
18592.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
好謝謝那我也是繼續把它收攏啦就是其實這一條裡面最大的兩個問兩類型的問題一個是罰則就是到底這個罰金要多少那另外一個是構成要件的問題那構成要件我先講喔我認為社違法過去一直罰不到的原因是因為它裡面非公自用 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
18594.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
18620.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
購買跟轉售營利這三個構成要件過去就是一直沒有辦法明確定義因為舉證很困難我舉一個例子之前新北地院在106年的時候有個判例就是有個民眾一次買了兩張五月天的門票然後他轉售然後警方認為他是黃牛票最後呢法院說你不能因為他持兩張票就認為他購買時非公自用因為非公自用的舉證真的太困難了所以最後就不罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
18621.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
18648.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
所以當時我們一直沒有辦法用社委法處理黃牛就是這樣的原因所以最後我們採用文創法裡面像文創法的構成要件非常明確購買然後超過票面價格就是這兩個要件而已非常非常明確你只要不是購買販售販售你用加價然後販售那你就是黃牛所以我剛剛早上一開始就直接問我們警政署長黃牛的定義是什麼就是加價販售就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
18650.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
18656.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
那所以裡面如果我們繼續用這樣的文字想要去試圖要處理黃牛的話我認為第一個罰不到第二個會誤罰誤罰什麼就是像剛剛博弈委員有舉一些例子因為現在市場上那種票券的類型給你買套票然後給你那種一次買很多張再轉售的這種市場的行為有非常多樣態那如果我們現在這樣定下去很可能會到時候檢舉不完 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
18677.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
18704.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
就大家會說你一次買十張打折的套票在賣別人的你是不是黃牛然後你可能用跟別人套裝形成的然後你中間多買一些那種餐點什麼給你加價的那你是不是黃牛所以這種很不明確的構成要件最後很可能造成的結果就是你市場上非常多類型的遊樂型的然後餐飲型的這種票券都可能到處被亂檢舉就說這個全部都是黃牛 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
18705.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
18727.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
那這樣是不是市場上可能會反而造成很多誤會那這是我比較擔心的部分那至於罰則我還是再次強調我認為要就是回歸到專法裡面給他罰重一點用明確的定義然後給他罰重一點如果是你是醫療黃牛你是演唱會黃牛就是明確你加價然後又販售那就給他罰重一點啊在這邊給他罰個三萬塊對那種真的黃牛來說不痛不癢完全不痛不癢黃牛根本就他們到現在還是這麼猖狂 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
18734.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
18752.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
就是因為他們賺暴利你買一張blackpink他給你五十萬十萬三十萬他都給你買因為他就是中間賺暴利嘛他根本就不怕罰所以我們覺得要就是要好好針對這種問題來處理以上希望可以再收容一點謝謝好謝謝黃菊委員我們請高菊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
18758.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
18780.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
我覺得我們今天談的就是說沒有專法裡面我們怎麼樣先汪洋補牢先讓這些人可以意圖不要犯罪然後第二個就是說我覺得罰金的部分當然就必須在社會法裡面它多少我們就定多少嘛是三萬塊嘛所以在修正動議裡面我已經寫得很清楚是三萬塊嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
18781.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
18805.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
那再來就是說遊樂票券這也是我剛剛想要問的就是遊樂票券有沒有包括參與食宿休閒商品這要請因為這是現行條文是不是請你們來解釋一下那如果它有包括的話當然就後面就不要寫如果沒有包括的話我當然覺得還是要寫啊接著下來你們大家認為就是說意圖轉售這塊部分其實意圖轉售其實呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
18807.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
18825.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
應該有很多是可以去看的譬如說現在電腦程式各方面你如果去購買了意圖這些程式就表示你就是想要大量的購買這些票券所以在意圖轉售這個部分還有盈利者還有轉售圖利者其實都講得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
18827.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
18853.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
縱使我們在這邊只有罰三萬塊可是也是先亡羊補牢嘛在目前專法還沒有定之前我們先讓這些意圖要有要有這樣子想要販賣這樣圖利的人他能夠因為涉違法而禁止他他不再不想去犯案嘛所以我覺得這以上的部分我再說明一下是不是也請內政部來說明一下獻群條文的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
18854.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
18865.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
購買運輸票券跟遊樂票券是包括什麼好嗎謝謝好謝謝我們現在請行政機關來做說明這個票券的定義我們請張署長好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
18869.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
18885.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
好各位那對於這個適用這個範圍裡面那目前我們警官取締黃牛票大概目前我們食物機關有在做的取締黃牛票第一個所謂遊樂票件大部分就是細票的黃牛 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
18886.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
18900.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
就是電影票的黃鳥我現在講實務上如果包含有過程這個就是電影票的黃鳥第二部分就是這個文化產業的這一些的這個藝文的這一些的黃鳥這個是文創法裡面有的過了這個黃鳥 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
18902.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
18931.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
之前過去有是適用社會法現在適用文創法第三種就是運動賽事的這個就是類似職棒的這些的這個取締辦法那我去年在台北市服務的時候這個運動賽事沒有沒有還沒還沒還沒通過之前我們就適用設置法通過之後就馬上用那個運動賽事這個這個來做一個取締那至於這個範圍裡面我想就是這一個遊樂票券 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
18933.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
18943.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
參與實施這個票卷跟各式休閒商品這我想應該有主管機關來做解釋了這個部分到底是屬於是不是有要票卷這個應該要這個屬於經驗這裡面是沒有去做這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
18951.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
18965.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
這個經驗在這裡做說明那第二部分就是委員的修正動議裡面就是其中裡面就是以虛偽資料其不正當的方式以文創跟運動賽事的立法精神這個是屬於刑事法 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
18967.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
18984.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
刑事法那委員這個地方是想把它提高最高的罰則那這個應該是不是法律上有這些這個可能司法院可能來做可能來做一個是不是來做這個這個如果說以立法的精神這個修正綜藝這一點這個是用刑法來做處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
18985.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
19000.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
有不占的利益啦或者是用虛偽的資料這是過程刑事法的要依送法判的不是用罰錢就可以處理了那這個部分也給提供委員做一個參考這以上好 謝謝還有哪些單位要補充有了票卷照理來講是主管機關就我了解是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
19019.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
19038.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
請我們查當初社委法64條第二款的立法理由它的遊樂票券很單純就是指遊樂場所當初立法有的文字就遊樂場所不是應該不是不是他文字很單純因為他是從違警罰法向下來的所以他文字在民國80年的時候他就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
19040.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
19060.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
對 他已經三十多年了 所以當時的立法背景時空背景他當時指的很單純就是遊樂場所就是遊樂園那種場所以上報告 謝謝所以顯然遊樂票券不能包含餐旅這些東西對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
19068.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
19081.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
他現在是講各式休閒及商品票券密室逃脫應該算遊樂場所啦他應該算遊樂場所啦遊樂園我覺得我們一段一段來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
19101.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
19126.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
運輸票就應該沒有問題嘛對不對因為當然現在只有鐵路法有規定火車嘛但是其他的應該也要規範嘛而且是原來的文字嘛李博弈真的考慮一下齁餐飲食宿入社違法真的感覺壓力很大欸如果是車票我覺得大家支持啦演唱會或者是這個演藝等等的我覺得大家目標方向大家很一致啊但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
19128.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
19152.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
對啊 餐飲食宿券的感覺應該可以再討論一下沒有啦 他這個票券的狀況可能就是譬如我去大量採購比如對折的譬如說什麼三天兩夜的包套的這種行程什麼原價價值一萬六嘛好 但我買的管道是八千你就買很多然後你在外面賣一萬那其實他就是黃牛啊他就是黃牛啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
19163.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
19181.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
對啊 沒有 我們現在就是討論嘛主席我幫你留一個文字你這樣團購有點違法你這樣 對啦 這樣不行耶對 這樣參與時數 這團購沒有啦 是票券的部分嘛沒有啦 我現在也還是有旅遊券啊 時數券啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
19186.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
19191.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
還有林家砂鍋魚頭最主要林宗明 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
19205.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
19212.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
但是他的公司是這麼貴但是就是太貴了你看他一包花了幾塊啊但是到消費者你要買的話花了三百幾塊耶這樣就加一倍了耶這樣是不是但是對啊這個違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
19228.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
19234.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
要不然有的公道回來,我們跟法院一樣,我們不時去擺賣賣到所以我們去擺啊這也是覺得很奇怪的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
19240.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
19267.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
這個我覺得大家講的這個我們要再思考一下如何去文字定義比較精確因為現在新的太多了啦我跟你講現在連代牌代購都有連代牌都有如果這樣子它有沒有違反社會法我覺得這個大家要去思考一下另外像剛剛喬惠媛所說的你團購 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
19268.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
19291.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
那你如果旅展你去買了很多那你朋友跟你講他有打九折啦他原價賣給他如果照我們這樣定義的話他就出問題囉我覺得回到黃牛票本來的精神的規範上的精神的概念是因為避免大家去賺中間的利差然後導致本來該買該用便宜價格買到的人買不到嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
19293.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
19316.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
所以我覺得精神上不管形態是什麼就是人家旅展也好或者是藝文表演或者是體育我覺得大家精神都一樣的就是為了怕有人想去賺那個利差然後去大量掃貨嘛然後讓本來尋正常管道可以取得這些票卷的人取得不到我覺得這是我們大家應該比較有共識的黃牛的行為但沒關係我覺得今天對法療文字都不需要我們都還有討論的時間啦但就請大家多發表意見好不好我再補充一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
19318.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
19345.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
黃牛什麼這些我們當然是要去處理它我們不允許它但它一個概念應該就是有的東西是有限量的你黃牛它一定是有限量的你的演唱會我的票就是多少你應該是我們是不是從有限量的方向去思考如果你一般餐飲或什麼的我跟你講它沒有限量啊它不會有限量的問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
19348.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
19370.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
他也沒有限量的問題啊黃牛能夠賺的大概都黃牛能夠賺錢的是應該都是有限量的這個所以才會說轉售圖利嘛我覺得關鍵應該是票券這兩個字啦因為代牌有沒有包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
19370.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
19385.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
轉售圖利他只要轉售圖利就是很多委員那時候有提就是避免那個醫療黃牛那個其實他就是代掛號嘛其實今天大家在質詢的時候提出來是代掛號的概念嘛那他可能不見得是用票券兩個字可以來處理但那個適合的文字是什麼大家可以商量一下啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
19391.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
19403.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
對啦,像那個趙薇說的趙薇說的醫療票券的問題,我覺得最主要也有時效,它就是它才掛好嘛,譬如說今天的韓債,它現場20萬嘛,所以它才掛 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
19407.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
19416.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
但是這種人有時候他行動不便或是他身體不舒服一定要拜託別人去過這要怎麼認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
19419.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
19438.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
對 所以我覺得代牌代購這件事情恐怕就是它又是另外一種又用另外一種法條文字來處理如果你要把它納入規範的話的行為好 沒關係今天因為我們只是大體上收束一下方向我覺得我們各自稍微思考我也請行政機關思考一下啦就是說以新興的幾個樣態來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
19439.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
19468.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
因為今天各個單位幾乎都有嘛交通部 衛福部等等都有嘛如果要講說大家討論的那種黃泉行為就是掃貨然後賺利差的這樣一個行為用什麼樣的文字 有什麼樣的行為請各個行政大會回去做一下功課我們之後會另外再找時間再來審查還有沒有委員要補充 針對這一條好 我先啦我覺得各單位也要想一下我們這邊都是票券票券票券啦那我舉個例子我如果去買一雙限量的球鞋 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
19471.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
19494.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
我如果用提貨券我去轉賣可能就處罰了但我如果這雙球鞋我是賣直接拿實體的給你我們這裡就規範不到喔所以我的意思說你各單位可能要去想一下想清楚喔這個我們今天請你們想你們要把很多樣態想清楚喔好 喬維 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
19495.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
19502.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
好那我再回來我個人的意見就是屬於醫療的部分我認為這個大家都很想解決問題我還是肯定各位大家各位委員同仁大家的用心但我覺得醫療這個部分可能我比較不建議用醫療票券然後放在社委法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
19516.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
19519.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
那因為我上一屆確實有提出醫療法徵第22條之一就是保障民眾使用醫療資源的平等任何人不得加價販售醫療服務之權利剛剛已經念過了這樣的狀況所以既然大家都是這個方向本人會再來提出到時候懇請大家也順便支持一下我也會去請韓委員會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
19535.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
19560.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
支持一下 我覺得其實用這樣的專法然後呢是直接把所有醫療資源都放在裡面然後任何人不得加價販售醫療服務的權利因為這等於是侵害民眾的權利我想任何法律的定律都是為了要保障民眾的權利大概是我比較建議用這樣的方向 謝謝好還有人要補充嗎我們這條先保留好不好大家回去稍微再想一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
19562.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
19584.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
我還是要講就是說我們在現行法裡面的遊樂票券它也是這個意圖轉售圖利者當時你們是怎麼內政部是怎麼訂這個法的所以呢我們就會依照你們的這個構想現行的這個法條裡面然後同樣的邏輯來把其他東西放進去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
19585.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
19607.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
所以內政部其實我們今天剛剛我都同意剛剛委員所討論的這個部分那我也覺得說回去應該可以好好思考一下但是我必須要講的部分就是第一項第二款這個部分我們是以現行法的這個所謂的範型意圖來轉受這個圖利者的這個概念然後把其他的這個要被規範的東西放進去那 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
19611.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
19638.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
大家覺得說這個部分如果線型條文這個遊樂票券的這個部分是有問題的話那麼那當然我提了那麼多的面向當然也是會有問題沒錯但如果說是線型條文沒有問題那當然就是沒有問題啊那只是大家把線型的太陽講出來而已嘛好不好再來就是那個第四項的我看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
19639.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
19665.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
而對於不正方法或指令輸入電腦或其相關設備購買票券取得訂票或取票憑證之行為為國際間常見的禁止行為這個部分是蕭保處的意見所以我也把它放在我的修正動議裡面是不是也請蕭保處你來說明一下因為剛剛警政署說這是屬於刑法的部分你們當時你的書面報告是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
19669.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
19680.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
希望有這個部分也能夠立法消保處在不在來消保處有請說明一下謝謝你是不是來說明一下當時你因為我覺得你講的這個份這是有道理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
19682.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
19708.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
對 其實在這個消保處接到了一些消費爭議中的確是關於這種所謂電腦方式的這種黃牛的確是存在的所以在原先在文創法或是說在運動發展條例中會建議把這個加進去但是因為我們後來考量就是說其實不管是文創或者是運動條例它基本上是一個特別法的性質 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
19709.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
19729.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
所以剛才警政署的長官指教的這個道理是對的因為它是個特別法所以它可以把刑事跟行政的關於相關的一些規定放進去不過因為現在社委法本身它是一個行政法法的一個轉向所以要把一個刑事的條文加進去的確是有點在法制上必須要做一些考量的 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
19730.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
19753.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
這的確是剛剛我們聽吉森主委長官講那倒是對的因為我們的社會法也只能把那種行政上的一個處罰放進去不過刑事呢在文創法跟在那個運財條例中是有刑罰的處罰在的幾年幾年的徒刑或科處罰金所以這個部分來講的話可能看怎麼樣在法制上要去做一個調整那以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
19754.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
19769.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
我補充再問一個問題我們消保處這邊應該也會接受到各式各樣的投訴嘛針對黃流票的樣態除了現在因為藝文體育已經有明確的法律規範其他樣態是些什麼樣態我覺得這是一個蠻重要的判斷基準我們要把哪些東西放進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
19770.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
19797.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
那就是以消保處這邊受理的各式各樣的消費糾紛嘛最明顯的樣態是哪一種你們這邊有沒有一些資料可以提供給大家做參考我們可以提供資料但是如果說真的是最大的樣態的話就是票卷就是藝文票卷跟運動賽事票卷對一定的嘛因為最重要已經先處理完了嘛我們覺得現在社會法等於是補破網嘛就是剩下的部分嘛所以是不是請消保處也回去調一下資料除了體育跟藝文這兩大類已經有專法規定了之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
19797.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
19816.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
哪些形態的消費糾紛是來自於這種轉售圖利等等的行為去做讓我們做下一次討論的時候做明確的參考可以嗎我們整理一下資料是好謝謝好那我們這條一樣先給它保留起來與此同時我們剛剛第九條已經出來了我唸一下可以弄到電腦上嗎就把伊亞人 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
19818.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
19843.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
三個字改成就那一條那一項我重新念啦就是精神耗弱或出生及未滿七歲及有聽覺且語言障礙者他其實就是英雅人的白話版這樣子大家OK嗎沒有他當初的英雅人的定義就是這樣因為年幼他適同就是一開始就沒有等於沒有辦法沒有辦法對對對對一開始就等於一開始沒有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
19848.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
19849.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
內政部的這個草案我想也大致符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
19867 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
19895.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
司法院的解釋跟社會法的這個立法理由不過就是說西部的文字上是不是可以這樣出生及年滿七歲未滿七歲是不是可以更精簡就是年滿七歲前就可以了年滿七歲年滿七歲前就是說剛好包括出生在內嘛那另外即有聽覺且語言障礙者現在就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
19898.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
19918.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
委員原始的提案大家卡住的地方就是說用障礙用語言障礙因為障礙有程度輕重之分所以今天才沒辦法馬上去做處理我想就是卡在這個地方那這一個部分就是說極有聽覺且語言障礙者 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
19919.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
19938.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
本來是說有沒有可能是用譬如說我只是假設譬如說上司天覺及語言能力者就表示說他這兩個能力都不具備了就是符合司法院那個解釋的意旨不過這用上司還有這個能力是不是符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
19939.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
19958.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
衛福部這邊專業教授衛福部又有觀感不佳的問題我想這一個就是更細膩的是不是請衛福部再指導一下但是大概就是在這個前提發表就是這兩種能力都不具備但是你要用什麼樣的語言或名詞去描述它比較不會有你再念一下你剛剛那個版本衛滿七歲前集喪屍集喪屍聽覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
19968.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
19982.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
及語言能力者那剛剛那個衛福那邊應該有更細膩的那個語言或描述方式不是衛滿吧他講是年滿年滿年滿七歲前嘛是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
19985.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
20001.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
對,年滿7歲前年滿7歲前來,衛福部,如果按照法務部剛剛的建議這樣子現在治療技術非常的好,我們聽覺有障礙的幾乎很少了所以要處理一下,他可能已經有匯付員了 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
20006.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
20033.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
我們覺得如果可以用就是重度以上的話會比喪屍能力來得好一點因為身障者們對於那個能力兩個字來講他們會蠻敏感的在像喪屍能力好像有一種沒有那麼中性的感覺那因為重度的話像是目前的就是評鑑的制度就是有分成輕重重極重所以用重度也許會比較好一些那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
20036.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
20050.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
所以你也要有一個你說重度我們現在就把那個稍微收束一下那你精神耗弱也要跟著改啊精神耗弱這幾個字也是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
20058.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
20084.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
主席 是不是我們現在探討一下 跟這條也保留一下保留可以 他們怎麼想都沒理你來來 最後要這樣子好不好那個請衛福部跟法務部跟內政部會上一下啦對不對 應該我覺得如果要改也很好因為我覺得大家的目標就是消除歧視性的這樣子的言論嘛這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
20087.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
20098.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
好 那就是內政部 主管就是內政部嘛還有我們法務部提供法律意見衛福部提供非歧視性 中性用語的標準好不好 你們三個會上一下那我們這一條就先保留謝謝大家 醫療法謝謝大家 簽一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
20112.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
20118.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
來 72條是跟是跟趙英基本上只有罰款提升啦大家有沒有想法現在是...來 王路人我覺得立法的目的跟這個我都不反對啦但用這個法令警察就沒有辦法執行啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
20142.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
20167.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
這點是我們要考慮的啊我們去訂一個沒有辦法執行的法律這樣子很奇怪但 噪音的這個部分其實它有專法了啊不過它就是因為有一個它已經有專法了啊這個我們稍早討論的時候都有講到就是它有一個噪音管制法有講有一部分交給社委法處理啦發表一下意見你們做得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
20172.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
20184.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
要放寬裁量的空間吧結果看起來是這樣其實警察去處理這個應該很難去認定就是認定了這個標準現在障碍管制法是有一期 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
20185.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
20189.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
這個法提升到提高這個做裁法我是沒什麼多大的意見因為也都沒有多大 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
20203.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
20230.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
多大的這個變化重要就是說你要罰到底能罰得到因為我們試用的這個應該是不多因為我這幾十年在實務的這個單位這個確實罰人也多但是一直沒辦法去處罰到他最主要就是沒有這一些的儀器或這樣去做這樣的一個認定去做認定那我想就是未來如果說我個人的看法在障碍管制法裡面來做詳細的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
20232.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
20234.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
在專法裡面詳細的規範好 我們外媒委員 李柏宇委員主席 我們感謝蘇定位的介紹說實在因為很多沒有人跟說實在的考慮很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
20246.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
20252.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
尤其有很多鄉親說老天爺我們多了現在靠電話 靠你們的電話你們如果他想說好 講話小聲講 我也沒辦法 你們也沒辦法策定出來你們的分配多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
20263.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
20272.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
現在還要叫環保局來啦 當然環保局來 他們沒環境也沒大事啦 是要去發什麼啦所以這種的問題很多 跟造成我們警察人員 跟騎一台摩托車去 叫又去 叫又去啦 都為社會主義完 以上好 李卓人 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
20289.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
20303.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
老師我的意見跟完美會委員很很接近也難得跟劉許林召委有一點接近你今天講第二次所以我再講一次那既然是這樣其實噪音有很多種型態這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
20305.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
20332.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
那其實很多這種噪音它其實在規範的是比如說是這個冷氣的噪音或者是什麼水塔的聲音這個當然就適用說我們用環保單位的人員來用這個相關的檢測儀器但是樓上樓下隔壁或者是我們看到第一條公眾場合酗酒滋事謾罵喧鬧 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
20334.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
20360.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
我們警察出門了才罰六千我是覺得可以提高可以討論啦謝謝警察出門了六千連工錢都不夠所以調高罰則好像大家還蠻有因為你還是有裁量空間嘛對不對署長這個如果調高罰則是當然是有裁判空間啦這個沒有在用法上沒有多大的變更應該是這邊沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
20362.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
20391.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
對他確實不一定能夠處理因為我們大部分大家都關注的是那種鄰居吵鬧的問題啦不見得能夠因為調高罰則就解決這個問題沒有錯但是我覺得剛剛難得跟李博議員有共識嘛對不對這個公共倉所需求之事這個罰重一點我覺得也是好事啊那請問請問大家對針對數字一萬八從嚴處分沒有民眾黨黨談提案一萬八啦邱若驊委員提案是一萬現行的是六千大家對於罰完金額有沒有什麼想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
20406.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
20422.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
好 高清委員說一萬八對啊 因為這個沒問題一萬八的一萬嘛 或者是不修嘛警政署長剛剛有講說那個 因為他有裁量的空間嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
20423.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
20448.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
有沒有行政機關要做意見補充的沒關係我們多討論沒有關係我們多討論啦我覺得要調高這個滑板這個大家有共識也覺得有但是是不是一萬八我覺得你從六千六千到一萬八是三倍但 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
20450.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
20474.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
這一個我跟你講因為你的噪音大聲小聲的不是不是罰不罰得到又是一件事情我跟你講夫妻如果吵架的你也要罰一萬八不是不是不能這樣講我覺得不可能啊到時候誰要出一萬八對 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
20480.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
20496.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
嘿 我覺得我們要思考一下這個社會的現實點啦齁啊是不是一下就調到一萬八欸 夫妻吵架算喔算喔這個是無證當理喔 上罰其他人對喔 算喔無證當理喔對啊 啊這算喔欸 我們立法院有分貝機欸超過一定分貝的可以拔嗎欸 我們立法院有分貝機 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
20509.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
20521.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
要妨害公眾安寧者好啦 其他行政機關有沒有補充的對 不見得罰那麼高啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
20532.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
20543.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
可以九千啊 可以六千啊 五千啊沒有標準啊那這個 他的立法金額原先是六千嘛那給他提到三千他地板 他地板 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
20557.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
20572.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
來我們署長有要補充嗎好那這裡面的第二款就是無正當理由這個散催警笛或散發其他警告者因為這三項的一個每個的這個形態都不同那這個罰則是18000這樣統一這樣罰則這樣恰不恰當那看委員做考量說的也是第二項比較嚴重啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
20582.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
20603.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
對,所以如果吳政當理由吹緊也是六千那就更不對了嘛我會這樣想嘛所以我的意思是說應該是要把稍微拉高一點那當然你按情節輕重嘛如果這個比如說小朋友哭啊或什麼那個沒有辦法那個勸導或者是輕輕放下也是常有的事嘛對啊但是如果你的總額不高的話會不會有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
20607.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
20627.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
權力變大了嘛 裁量的權力就會變大啦效果是這樣我們其他行政機關都沒有想法環境部你們針對噪音 因為也是要考量一下那個平衡性嘛 對不對說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
20635.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
20658.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
跟各位有人報告 那我們環境部的詐欺管制法裡面我們違反像以第八條行為管制部分我們在詐管法23條是用三千到三萬那我們有裁罰基準的部分我們就依照就是第一次違反的時候就罰三千那令其立即改善 那不改善的部分就逐步往上就是加倍加倍我們是用這樣一個方式來做一個裁除 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
20665.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
20669.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
我覺得這一條我們如果要的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
20671.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
20700.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
比如說這裡面第一款吧與公共場所公眾得出入什麼酗酒之事漫罵喧鬧不聽制止者我覺得這一個部分如果罰高一點我相信社會不會有大家的這個是OK的那其他的呢這個大家有其他的想法所以就不應該在一開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
20701.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
20717.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
就規定一萬八應該每個樣態是不同的金額對啊不然你要修法要完備我覺得就是只能這樣對就裁量權嘛你要不要授權警察的裁量權對我覺得高經緯講的是對的可以喔這是裁量權 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
20730.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
20759.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
欸署長我請教一下因為剛剛那個環境部的說法其實也是可以參考嘛就是說他們針對噪音管制法的實際執行會有一個裁罰基準嘛就是哪些樣帶罰多少哪些樣帶罰多少一輕重調整嘛那你們實務上警察現在在執法的時候應該應該什麼叫交通違規什麼應該也有一些類似的裁罰基準對不對有有有應該像這個現在目前施行了這個六千塊以下我們的裁判基準的現在就有好很重要現在就是六千塊以下嘛現在六千塊以下嘛那我們裁判基準是從三百到六千啦三 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
20759.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
20772.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
300到6000就往上一直加這樣子就往上一直加這個當然也要看那個這個所以你們那個會罰6000的樣態有哪些6000的應該是最重的應該是隔壁補充沒關係請 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
20778.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
20790.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
我想做一做是散催警笛警號還是沒有先沒有罰過沒有罰到這麼重沒有罰過沒有罰過6000我們照英這一款72條第3款這部分沒有沒有罰到6000過 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
20792.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
20818.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
你們是這條到底有沒有在用啊?有在用,有在用,但是他沒有罰到六千我的意思是說,那種鄰居之間的糾紛確實很難處理,這個我們都知道但是酗酒之事,謾罵喧鬧都沒有處理過?還是用別的直接處理了?那個是有,那我看你的資料裡面一年大概是幾百件,五六百件對啊,那那個是罰多少?那這個我看回去資料要查才知道那查才知道說到底是處罰多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
20819.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
20841.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
這個細節的部分我沒有了解那麼仔細我覺得大概可以有一個方向今天早上本席提質詢的時候其實有要求你嘛就是把這條實際上使用的狀況有有我那個資料已經有出來了大概五六百件左右那你也提供給內政委員做一下參考我們可以回去消化一下那我是建議警政署也思考一下就是說我們如果給你更大的裁量權讓你把這些比較嚴重的樣態可以放進去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
20848.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
20867.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
對就是說你裁判比較裁判高一點我覺得這個這個罰則提高我覺得是沒有意見因為也是沒有對整個目前事情沒有執行的這個過程沒改變只是說未來是罰的更重這個民眾如果說被我們罰的他以後就是不敢再犯了這個最主要的原則了 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
20868.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
20893.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
那聽起來是蠻贊成增加的嘛增加我是贊成的啊增加是贊成嘛好那你們回去檢討一下你們的裁量基準啦就是說如果有增加的話下一次我們討論的時候你提個建議嘛可以沒有問題增加到多少我覺得大家這樣子就比較有接近共識的版本好不好好這條也保留最後跟騷這個一樣是增加罰則啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
20900.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
20907.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
好 這個有幾個因為我有跟研發委員做一下溝通我有跟他講我說社會法19條有規定嘛所以最多也只能罰到三萬嘛那是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
20908.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
20926.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
魯明哲委員的版本是說30以下拘留或新台幣3萬以下罰款嘛那早上那個蘇喬威委員質詢的時候其實有把數字講出來嘛就是說即便現在有跟騷法但是好像還是會有漏網之魚所以這個有補破網的功能不應該隨便刪除嘛所以我們就討論罰則輕重的部分請各位委員發表意見 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
20931.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
20956.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
對 一樣是輕重啦 跟剛剛那條概念是一樣的大家先聽一聽 廣泛討論一下首先那個儲十萬元的就已經超過了那個是不可能的嘛 這個已經講好了 講過了現在是 現在那個散播謠言是不是要拘留三年 最嚴重的話是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
20959.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
20973.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
假消息關三天是不是是嗎那個也是社會法不是嗎63條我是覺得有必要稍微提升但一樣程度可以商量 來李博議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
20976.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
21002.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
我請教一下署長根據現在的跟騷法當然裡面已經有第三條已經有寫到以人員車輛工具設備電子通訊等等的這些但是主要是針對性或性別那現在其實交通上有很多這個問題行車行車的時候那如果說覺得不爽前面或者的車可能他就一直一路跟著你 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
21003.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
21028.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
讓你很害怕或者是開到你前面等等的這些齁這個也有相關的這些交通的罰則了嘛那如果沒有沒有辦法舉證到這些相關交通的罰則裡面齁那如果我們在這一個涉違法裡面有沒有這樣子去辦過的這個的這些案例有沒有或者是警方有沒有這個武器來針對這些惡意跟車的這些車輛 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
21032.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
21054.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
好 那這個就是說我們縣稍這個耕耕法裡面沒有規約 耕耕法就提到是跟縣有關係那其他裡面有包括幾個類型 包括這個像國宅的啦 或者是以這個行車的糾紛啦或者是這一些那個那個類似那個什麼聚眾的這一些 這一些的一個跟一個跟追的一個行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
21054.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
21068.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
那目前我們還是要看那個報案人的這個來我們去收集到了這個事證收集到事證是有過程到這個跟追的這個相關的行為我們再來做一個依照設置法來做一個處罰對 設置法好 謝謝好 針對罰則的部分大家有沒有想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
21081.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
21109.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
因為現行的條件是三千以下嘛然後申戒那我是覺得輕了點因為現在假消息或者謠言是關三天罰三萬嘛 最高嘛等於是社會法裡面可以罰的最重的狀況嘛然後跟蹤騷友只罰三千我是覺得落差蠻大的所以我是覺得要佐與提升啦那是不是要一併比照就是這種這種樣態裡面是最嚴重的一樣是三天然後加三萬塊的這樣一個罰款警政署長你的意見怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
21112.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
21134.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
那現在這裡面是不是裡面修正還有就處那個三日以下的拘留對啊現在委員提案的版本確實是有拘留那現在是拘留然後再加這個三萬以下的罰款或啦沒有是或是或修正版本是或那個這個其實這個立法協議跟商條一樣如果是加重了這個這一項處罰我是沒有意見的那我們就加大嚇阻好不好這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
21141.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
21169.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
那我們照魯明哲委員版本通過可以嗎那拘留的部分是不是大家討論一下又要討論一下拘留的這個部分啦因為原先原先原先的立法只有行政法而已嘛那現在有加人身自由這個拘留的部分是不是大家討論一下是可以的啦這是哪一條裡面有講19條裡面有講拘留是OK的啦就是在社會法的範圍裡面63條也是嘛就是我們剛剛講說散佈謠言也是可以拘留三天嘛所以其實都OK嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
21170.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
21198.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
來 各位委員 針對根梢只罰三千 我是覺得落差蠻大那就把它提高那我們照魯民哲委員版本通過 大家意見怎麼樣署長有什麼意見嗎沒有 我看就是說 拘留在或者是新台幣三萬以下的罰款那大家要不要討論一下這樣的一個處 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
21200.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
21229.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
所以你也沒有特別的訂件嘛但是你認為調高罰則是有助於調高罰則是 我是同意同意嘛那就看委員的意見啊對 但居留這個部分居留部分在這個區塊看恰不恰當你們作為實際的執行單位你們應該算比較了解實際上的樣態嘛沒有沒有 現在目前的現在目前規範是沒有嘛對 我知道 那個居留要到檢定法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
21231.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
21254.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
好那看是不是我們那個示範因為拘留要到法院去那邊去做裁定我們檢查沒有檢查沒辦法就是如果要牽涉到要拘留不可能要到法院的那個檢定法庭送檢定法庭好 沒關係既然我們都要請警政署因為你們大體上的方向都同一增加裁罰的強度嘛但是具體來講要怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
21254.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
21283.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
也許我們還需要一點時間去消化然後去討論所以就希望警政署一樣這條比照前面的噪音管制好用你去調一下你過去的裁罰樣態跟需求你要提你的意見啦比較明確我要調高但調高到什麼程度符合你實際執法者的一個現狀嘛對不對對好不好我們一樣做這樣子的一個決議然後大家就這一條我們要保留但是我們下次討論的時候請你務必要把相關的資料跟想法準備好這樣我們下次審查才會快速嘛我請問各位委員這樣子處理有沒有問題可以可以好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
21285.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
21296.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
那這四條都講完了 大家還有沒有什麼特別要補充的意見嗎沒有沒有 好 那我們就另外找時間再繼續審查好不好好 那我宣讀一下協商結論 謝謝沒有沒有結論啦 張偉結論就是下一次要那個啊 並定期進行結論就是保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
21320.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
21326.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
還有附帶決議保留還有附帶決議保留你所議案定期繼續審查這個中央要怎麼休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
21332.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
21358.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
好 謝謝報告委員會剛剛經過這個協商的結果我們的第9條第64條第72條第89條這4條條文都保留那請行政機關按照我們剛剛討論的結論提供相關的資料我們下次審查的時候要看到明確的意見那相關的附帶決議我們也就是下次討論的時候一併來做處理那麼討論事項的所列議案我們就另定期繼續審查那本日會議到此結束現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
21361.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
21365.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
明天兩天一次明天幾號?明天幾號?明天幾號?明天幾號?明天幾號?明天幾號?明天幾號?明天幾號?明天幾號? |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
21375.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
21387.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
我就跟師傅講說沒有答案,都用他師傅講的都不是啦,現在放在什麼方向,放在他們的那你們就控制,你們就控制,就你走到那邊去,那還有一些資料,有一些資訊還是資料可以再分析,那我來弄資料,我指導在這張圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
21399.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
21399.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
21418.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
21432.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
剛剛那個夫妻吵架是誰說的 |