| IVOD_ID |
166113 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166113 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-03 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-20-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
10 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-03T10:40:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-03T10:51:49+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:49 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d5a4ce084af309d6557a012307a6237409a18256bf6bdfeba14720b4e10c82cb141228277b1494e55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
李坤城 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:40:00 - 10:51:49 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-03T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查本院委員蔡易餘等16人、委員牛煦庭等26人分別擬具「銀行法第一百二十五條及第一百二十五條之四條文修正草案」等2案。） |
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主委好主委好我們今天是新的政企局局長過來嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
10.224 |
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這個請教一下主委我們今天是審查銀行法第125條125條之四的條文修正案不過我有看了這個委員的提案然後就發現說因為我們本來是說你只要是犯罪實際獲取的這個財務或財產上的利益那這樣子意思是說實際犯罪所得不是說因為犯罪然後獲取的所得對不對 |
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38.835 |
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對 就是他現在來講的話現在我們的司法見解都是已經是以比如說假設以地下會對就是地下會的金額不是會對的手續費不是他所得嘛不是他賺什麼手續費啦或是什麼樣之類的不是吧 就是因為這樣子範圍才會大嘛 對不對 |
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55.122 |
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72.484 |
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對 就是它不是只是那個金手的手續費而已對啊 那如果因為因為我看委員的提案這好像是把它限縮了本來是說你那個這個你知道金手的這個這些金額一定比實際上你獲取的這個利益還要多嘛 |
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90.292 |
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就是如果按照委員提案的文字修正多了個實際兩個他就變成實際犯罪嘛那不是整個都說限縮了嗎對就是說他可能就是從從剛才講的那個整個的比如說會對的金額可能就實際他就以他所得可能就手續費或是他中間的報酬對 |
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91.352 |
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對啊 那這樣不是對於說我們要比如說要來這個打詐啊或是這一個限制這一個地下會對啊那這些不是產生了這一個不利的影響嗎所以我們就認為當時我們在立法的那個情境跟意旨並沒有任何的更動之前我們是建議維持原條文對啊 因為我看這一個法務部的這一個 |
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說明也是一樣就是說希望能夠維持現在這個營養法的這一個原本的條文對不對我想司法的判決也是經過很冗長的大家的辯證得到這樣那個結論好對啊我是看了有委員的這提案我發現說奇怪那不是把這一個這個他的這一個行為把它限縮成這個實際犯罪所得嗎那這樣不是變成說我們打劫範圍變更小嗎 |
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140.68 |
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確實我們在報告上有提到這有點降低我們對這個未來處罰的條件當然也有提到就是說是否符合一定的比率各種不同的見解都有但是我們從過去的司法實務上已經收斂到就是原來是以那個金額為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
156.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
181.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
好 那再請教一下主委目前我們有三家純網路銀行 對不對有這一個連線銀行 將來銀行還有樂天銀行 是的那這三家其實目前都還是虧損當中三家網銀到9月底的統計累計虧損達到87億 對不對那按照主委的這一個看法的話那是不是網銀還會持續的虧損下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
182.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
208.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我想從一個經營的角度來看因為他們成立的時間比較短那當然市場上已經有一些已經有佔有一些優勢的競爭者在裡面我想說對一個新的金融機構來講不太可能很短時間就能夠獲得那時間因為有四五年了嘛對 但是我們也看到就是說不管是性平機構或是對其中的部分已經持比較正面的態度而且我們也看到他們的有 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
209.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
228.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
有些銀行已經開始營運已經慢慢地顯現出當時的目的我想站在金管會的立場我們既然已經開放這個業態我們當然也希望說它能夠在市場上提供它的價值所以我們在過去我們也針對它的業務範圍做合理的調整我想這部分我們會持續來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
229.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
246.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那請教主委那現在就是說這個樂天銀行它到那個年底虧損可能會到達這個30億已經達到這個資本的三分之一的這個快達到它的法定的紅線了那這個那金管會有做什麼樣的一個處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
246.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
269.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
沒有 當然是這樣這是我們根據那銀行法的規定就是說今天來講你超過了三分之一就要提這個計畫那目前有提計畫嗎現在還不到三分之一這還是二十七 二十八左右對啊 那也快接近了吧我們也關切這件事情說我們在很多場合裡面我們都說其實你要注意這件事情因為這個是所以都是僅此於這個口頭提醒他們而已不是 這個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
269.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
294.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
依照法律就是這樣來做的就是說他沒有到你一到就按照規定就來跟我們申報跟我們說明而且我們就會開始採取更多那在此之前沒有採到三分之一紅線之前你們就是那就是法律的規定就是口頭跟他講就是說你們快到這樣子這個就是法律其實他們也知道嘛對不對那他們有提什麼政治的計畫嗎或是怎麼樣的我想從很多媒體上你看到他們也也有提出這樣一個構想 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
297.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
311.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
但是僅止於構想但是它是內部公司治理事項本來就是這樣因為目前還沒有查到你們那個監管會的紅信就對了我們的法律非常的明確因為我看到那一個它主要大股東是國票金那國票金它就說這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
314.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
341.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
國票金的最大的股東也是公股公股銀行願意增資才願意跟進增資有聽到這種說法嗎不過我想是這樣因為主要是根據金控法五十三條就是說金控公司對他的子公司本來就有代為籌資的義務以他持股比率其實這個樂天有五十一是日資四十九是本國資本其中就是在本國各個就是國票金的持股大概是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
342.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
366.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以他增資的部分國票金的增資的義務就是49%就是根據這個那其他就是應該是公司他們要來做這件事情所以假設依法他的義務就是根據金融法覆三條就是按照比率好那剛才有提到說這一個鬆綁這件事情因為其實這一個惠譽這一家顧問公司也提到就是說那如果能夠再做一些政策上面的一些鬆綁的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
367.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
394.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那其實是可以讓這些純網路銀行他們的營運能夠更健全我不曉得說在金管這方面對於純網路銀行的政策這方面有沒有任何鬆綁的可能性其實我想說委員很關注這一題我在認為像我們在去年提出金融科技發展的五策略裡面我們就有一個支持網路金融 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
395.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
408.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以當然包括我們的網營的部分我們就開放這三家那接下來我們的數位保險公司正在申請中我想這個部分我們是支持所謂市場上有一個創新的動能但是我們要維持市場公平的競爭因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
410.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
430.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
存網營那他本身的條件完全比照銀行只是他的經營業務範圍我們會持續在合理的範圍之內比如說我們對他的法案開戶房貸業務連貸這案子呢這些東西呢我們都會把它透過業務事辦的方式現在有開放了對不對有有有有沒有哪些還準備可以開放的我們會跟他們協商就是站在因為他就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
432.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
459.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
100億的公司他就資本條件什麼都一樣那我們是希望說他維持他在市場上比如提供創新服務的價值這是我們當初開放他最重要的這樣的意義但是其他我們覺得說怎麼樣做對客戶是好的或是怎麼樣這個風險可控的情況之下我們盡量的讓他做到跟一般的銀行是可以公平競爭我想我們朝這個方向來走就是說他要跟他公平競爭那一定有些業務也是跟現在的銀行是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
460.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
479.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
但是金管又希望他能夠做一些創新性的當然 當時我們開放就像我們開放數位保險公司都是一樣你如果無法帶來這個市場上那我意思是說現在是正面表列說你哪些可以做對不對現在應該講說他過去就這個名字那有沒有說有哪些不能做的其他都可以做 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
479.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
495.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這部分我們就透過逐步示範跟他們討論的方式我們在做調整所以這也是為什麼我們這個性平機構會對這個東西持一個比較正向的看法他是希望說如果金管會能夠做一些政策上的鬆綁的話未來可能是朝正面的發展可是我這樣聽好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
498.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
517.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好像還沒什麼比較具體的東西出來就像我剛剛跟委員報告的我們已經透過就是實際上他們就是可以比如說過去我們法案開戶一定要都透過線上我們還有就是房貸業務還有連貸業務現在已經有的啦我們還會持續的再去跟他們討論就是說有些什麼他們的需要在我們政治同意的範圍之內我們來做一些調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
518.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
532.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
好 那最後再問你這個有關電子支付全支付它最近有發生了一些盜刷的事情那你們也要求說它在17號11月要提出書面報告有提出書面報告了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
533.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
560.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我想这个是我们的所有的重大事故通报的标准程序那我想说对啊那彭局长还有有提出书面报告了吗因为刚好接二连三都是全师傅来来彭局长有那个跟委员报告这个他也循重大好发通报程序他已经有把相关报告报过来那事实上这个应该是说在之前就已经发生过的一个案件那因为他当时要做系统的更换他有一些测试区的资料那被留出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
561.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
589.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以相關的不管是跟客戶之間的一個和解啦或者是他後續強化的一個管控措施那流出去的資料有多少因為他那個是在測試區那詳細的數字我是不是再跟委員報告因為那個資料是非常有限而且相關的資料事實上是有做一些比較隱蔽的方式來呈現那損失的金額有多少被打出來的金額有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
591.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
602.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
個案的部分就是它個案的部分就是總共啦 我就不是談個案啦我們的了解應該是39名的客戶有被冒名來使用那金額勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
604.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
626.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
金額的部分它回報大概是340萬左右那這個是系統性的呢那還是說有什麼樣的應該是說單一的一個事件也就是說它可能是在做相關業務擴展或者是系統轉換的過程裡面那被不法集團它以大量的方式傳送簡訊那怎麼會那麼剛好是它測試那段期間呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
628.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
652.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
可能就是可能詐團他也會看嘛當只要這個金融機構他有一些行銷活動或者是說有一些這個這個動作的時候他大概就是會比較趁虛而入啦這麼厲害喔就知道說他們現在在測試這個系統不過我們大概也觀察到就是說詐團他也會不特定的去選擇金融機構來攻擊那他攻擊的一個方式大概就是說以大量的方式來傳送簡訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
653.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
680.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
这个传送简讯的过程当中有些是真的是刚好金融机构的客户有些不是金融机构的客户那如果点了这些简讯那责任是在消费者身上还是在这个电子支付公司的身上对 因为过去我们从这个也是可以送评议的但是过去评议中心评议的结果因为通常都是民众主动的把他的相关账密交付给诈团所以在责任的分摊上面通常这个都 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
680.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
700.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
可是他這個會不會讓消費者不容易查出來就是說這個是屬於比如說是詐騙的一個釣魚的一個帳號對所以這個是我們加強要求金融機構要去加強宣導的部分因為他等於是做無差別式的一種攻擊好那相關的資料再請局長再跟我說明好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝李坤臣召委好接下來請李燕秀委員質詢 |