| IVOD_ID |
16606 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16606 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-21T08:30:33+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-21T13:14:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:43:27 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcb8f3324780817fde6e917ab2baf49428bd9360bdedb08522a242a9b603afc1105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:33 - 13:14:00 |
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報告委員會出席委員9人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會好我們現在開始開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議意思錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2082.233 |
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2111.796 |
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立法院第十一屆第三會期司法及法治委員會第八次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十四年四月十日星期四上午九時至十二時十四分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員黃國昌委員等十二人列席委員鍾嘉斌委員等八人列席官員司法院副秘書長王梅英等人主席吳昭吉委員宗憲報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二邀請司法院副秘書長法務部部長法務部矯正署 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2112.296 |
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2127.562 |
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內政部警政署內政部移民署海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就法院作成略視裁定之依據理由法定程序救濟方式與科技設備監控處分變更延長或撤銷之標準並就執行現況提供相關統計數據與測定作為進行專題報告並被質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2131.263 |
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2145.389 |
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本次會議有委員黃國昌等12人提出質詢委員審發會提出書面質詢決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2148.24 |
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2169.486 |
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好 謝謝 那我們現在先介紹到場委員黃國昌委員那接著我們介紹到場的官員 應要列席官員司法院副秘書長 王副秘書長 梅英法務部 政部長明謙法務部調查局 陳局長百利法務部廉政署 馮署長陳主席會議詢問 |
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2185.24 |
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2206.035 |
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好 請說謝謝主席我一開始有個會議詢問因為今天我們要針對的是有關於共諜滲透以及我們相關安全考核機制的作為我看到今天邀請列席的官員名單當中國家安全會議 |
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2207.873 |
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2213.62 |
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上面一片空白我要跟主席確認一下今天國安會有派人來嗎 |
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2216.457 |
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2238.518 |
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跟我一說明喔 今天國安會沒有派人來那為什麼可以不派人來那這個部分我再說明一下那國安會也沒有跟我請假那他們確實有一個人跑到我辦公室然後拿了一個信封然後我的助理有問國安會的自稱國安會的人員說這是什麼他就說想要請假 但是我助理因為 |
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2239.919 |
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2267.993 |
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問他有沒有跟召委這邊講那國安會說沒有所以我助理就拒收因為他沒有經過我的同意我要跟主席說明一下就是說目前國安會秘書長吳釗燮他的親信涉及到的共諜洩密案可以是目前在我們整個國安案件當中啊層級最高 太陽最嚴重的 |
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2269.438 |
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2290.89 |
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結果今天國安會排這麼重要的報告沒有經過主席的同意竟然半個人都沒有到委員會來我要提醒一下依照國家安全會議所成立的組織法國家安全會議組織法第八條明定 |
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2292.191 |
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2315.523 |
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國家安全會議及其所屬的國家安全局是受立法院監督我想主席是法律人這個法條白紙黑字寫得非常非常的明確如果今天司法法治委員會針對這麼重要的事情國安會不要說祕書長吳釗燮我不知道他是尷尬還是心虛不敢來 |
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2321.004 |
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2350.013 |
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我不做預斷但半個人都沒有來那請問國家安全會議組織法第八條他們受立法院的監督是形同巨文嗎是形同巨文嗎如果當法條寫得這麼清楚那請問國家安全會議所謂受立法院的監督是要怎麼監督連主席排這麼重要的議案目前在整個共諜風暴中心的國安會 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2351.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2355.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
都可以不派人來請問本院到底要如何監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2357.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2382.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
當然就是說我有稍微去看了一下過往的記錄那在段宜康曾經也就國安會不到場他曾經有嚴厲的批判過所以其實民進黨在擔任召委的時期當然也有對國安會不來有意見那我再看了一下過往的記錄其實顧立雄以前在擔任秘書長的時候其實他如果沒有辦法到他是會請假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2383.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2410.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那我不知道為什麼顧立雄做得到 吳釗燮都做不到那我只把事實說明清楚因為如同剛剛那個黃委員所說如果我們一切依照法律來看憲法六七條六三條他本來就有我們立法院可以成立委員會嘛而且對於一些重要的政府官員我們除了法律案預算案之外跟國家有關的重要事項本來就可以請他來說明所以這也是為什麼我們這次安排的這個會議我們希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2411.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2435.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
竟然我們的政府每天在那邊喊說我們現在遭共諜滲透是史上最嚴重那甚至要恢復軍審法恢復一大堆法而且還要修改國安法兩岸人民條例竟然有這麼多這麼多這麼多的意見他認為共諜這麼嚴重結果呢今天敵人就在本能室我們的共諜就在國安會卻不處理那如果一到這次台北地檢署處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2438.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2463.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
國民黨的台北市黨部只認為說有黨工涉案那就要把黨部主委也要申請羈押他說因為推定黨部主委也有涉案那是不是若依照檢方的這個邏輯的話那是不是國安會底下有員工涉案那國安會秘書長也有涉案所以我想說我們不是說預斷他有涉案但我們希望他能夠來說明這就是我們這次安排這個會議的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2465.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2486.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
主要的目的,更何況這個人待過總統府跟國安會跟外交部其實將近九年的時間,他只有做過一次的安全考核那我們也希望說了解這個是什麼,這是我今天排案的目的,跟委員報告不好意思,再用主席一點時間,因為這件事情非常重要我理解主席曾經努力過,所遭遇到的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2487.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2513.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那剛剛主席所提到的那個是在2013年10月16號的時候內政委員會由民主進步黨的段宜康召委他排了一個專案報告那個時候邀請國安會的秘書長到結果國安會沒有派人來那個時候由段宜康以及現在監察院的秘書長李俊逸還有高雄市的市長陳其邁他們一起提案什麼提案譴責國安會 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2516.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2543.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
譴責國安會說他們為什麼可以不派人來我覺得這是基本上國家法治的問題個案的部分個案的部分吳釗燮是不是有心虛是不是覺得丟臉不敢來那個是他個人的問題但我現在重視的是什麼重視的是國家安全會議組織法第八條是被廢了嗎如果沒有被廢的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2544.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2558.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
召委都已經發文請國安會派人來竟然可以不來沒有關係啊我就依照相同的規格相同的規格當天段宜康召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2559.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2582.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
一開始的時候在處理這個議案國安會沒有派人來的議案是請議事人員聯絡請他們在今天會議結束以前派人到司法法治委員會來是不是可以拜託召委提醒一下國家安全會議2013年10月16號就已經被民進黨的委員提案譴責過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2584.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2603.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
結果今天他們自己執政自己可以不來這什麼道理啊是不是可以麻煩請主席才是麻煩我們的議事同仁辛苦一下撥個電話通知我們的國家安全會議官威很大官威大的不得了啊說不來就不來 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2604.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2619.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那這個部分我們就麻煩議事人員聯繫那如果管會那邊有任何意見的話就可以跟他用2013年段奕康召委當時召集會議的時候他的論述可以直接請管會那邊參考那我們一樣請他們能夠派員過來好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2624.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2645.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
剛剛因為會議詢問結束剛剛為其介紹的列席代表 參議員名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報紀錄由於議事錄之前已經全部讀完畢了我們現在尚未確定 那我們現在先確定議事錄請問各位 我們補充介紹林倩琦委員請問各位就上次的會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2647.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2669.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那沒有的話一律確定我們今天的議程是排定邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部長等率所屬相關單位列席就軍審判專庭執行現狀並就共諜滲透機密資料洩漏等國安事件還有中程安全查核機制提出檢討報告還有防制措施進行專題報告並備諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2671.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2680.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
好 那現在進行報告 每位發言時間三分鐘我們首先請治療院副秘書長王副秘書長報告那接著下一位我們請法務部部長鄭部長報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2688.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2717.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
好主席各位委員各位現金大家早安今天貴委員會就軍事審判專庭的執行現況還有國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制檢討報告跟防制措施等案本院奉邀前來列席報告敬請指教第一點一百零二年軍事審判修法之後陳平時期的現役軍人涉及到 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2719.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2747.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
陸海空軍刑法就交由普通法院審理修法之後本院就含請法院成立專庭或是專股辦理該類案件配合112年12月施行的國家安全法19條規定本院也修正了司法事務分配辦法明定了國家國安軍事專業案件所含括的案件種類 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2749.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2757.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
到目前各個法院都有成立了國安軍事審判專庭或者是專股從102年之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2762.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2786.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
依這個司法事務分配辦法第12條的那個規定就是辦理專庭的庭長或法官每年都應該要受專業的專業案件相關的那個研習時數要達12個小時以上所以從102年開始法官學院和司法院都陸續辦理了相關的那個課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2789.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2814.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
進行賠利除了就是講授那個課程之外也有邀請國家安全局還有軍事情報局跟海巡署等單位一起進行那個案例研習那今年除了就是3月份剛舉辦的這個研習這裡頭又包括了這個有關於那個泄密案的那個研討之外那也有新增的那個課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2817.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2844.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
除此之外就是那個從103年到113年的相關案件受理就如這上面所在的從地院高院到最高分別有1347件78件27件那另外就是為了那個保護相關的這些審判當中的這些知名資訊還有國家安全也有相關措施譬如說法庭不公開還有拒絕跟限制對質結問還有限制月卷 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2845.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2866.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
以及相關承辦人員的那個促進管制那這個大家都有那個嚴格那個遵守齁那其餘的那個討論的議題呢因為市社執行層面還有增防作為或是立法政策那本院尊重權責機關還有貴院的意見及決定以上報告敬請主席及各位委員先進指教謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2868.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2872.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2884.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2902.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
今天奉邀列席委員會就軍事審判專庭執行現況並就共的滲透機密資料、泄密等國安案事件及終成安全考機制提出檢討包括防治機制代表本部列席報告並被質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2903.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2929.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那報告的一個重點就是第一近期供碟滲透事件曾迅速都變數量上升的一個情況以及遭供碟滲透的對象及管道這一部分呢實務上增加很多的一個類型最主要第一是科技掏空境外敵對勢力藉由設立空殼公司甲外接獲在地協力者等手段惡力挖角人採取的科技人力資源及研發成果嚴重威脅我國財力競爭力經濟安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2931.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2935.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
第二種是借選滲透,藉由在地媒體超過網紅行銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2937.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2964.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
藝人表現等新型的輿論工具搭配附入旅遊等等來妨害我國民主政治與社會的一個運作第三是灰色地帶的一個洗腦灰色地帶洗腦包括名傳在我國外島禁限制海域活動切斷我國海底電纜輕裝偷渡入國境等太陽那三開類型的案件檢查機關經驗檢查宿辦向上溯源加強強制處分周圍並起訴災難 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2965.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2989.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那國安案件的一個量呢現在是上升的 偵辦國家安全法陸資非法在台挖角侵害營業秘密乃至反滲透法案件之數量進了有升高的趨勢詳細的數字請參閱書面報告那另外滲透人員面相及滲透管道多遠 依實務案例分析結果對岸 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2990.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3007.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
策反對象以均質及關鍵技術機密的人員為主滲透管道具高度隱密及靈活性受限地域金流查詢人員掌握等限制較難要較之一般的案件搞出許多那未來的一個展望第一是落實公視 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3008.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3024.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
機密的一個管控軍工產業國家核心技術關鍵技術殖密企業的內部安全查爾機密保存技術移轉過程經落實執行機密管考強化公司機密人員的防密意識建立綿密的一個保防機制第二就是精進檢調偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3026.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3044.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
團隊的一個職能那藉由不同案件的磨合歷練累積能量並重視經驗傳承定期舉辦官研討會提升檢調團隊專業及本職學能第三是強化刑事司法的思維增審機關應景及官罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3046.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3072.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
犯罪對國家生存發展具危害性專注強化國安法思維法治思維將國家存緩之利害深植人心透過加入延期建立真審實務穩定而有效的法律運作的一個機制面對境外敵對勢力不斷壓迫侵擾本部所屬檢查機關將堅持信念提升專業本地職責打擊不法犯刑維護國家安全以上報告敬請主席各位委員指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3074.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3082.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
好 謝謝部長 那下一位我們請電話局局長陳局長報告那接下來一位麻煩法務部馮署長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3086.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3113.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生今天應邀列席貴委員會緊就今天的討論主題提出專題報告那首先是鑒於中共不斷擴大滲透我國的各級政府機關竊取國家的機敏資訊那援救中程安全核可的機制提出檢討報告及防治措施希望能夠透過這個查核機制來發現潛存的安全風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3115.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3143.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那其次報告我國現行的安全查核機制目前依照查核對象的不同分成四類的查核機制第一類是一般的公務人員依照公務人員內用法的規定辦理一般查核另外本法授權行政院人事行政總署訂定涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法以正面表列方式辦理查核那第二類是情報機關及所屬的情報人員及情報協助人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3144.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3171.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那這個是依照國家情報工作法由各情報機關的首長指定所屬的保防督察政風來辦理安全查核那第三類是國防部與所屬機關構部隊學校及所監督的行政法人及人員及其他因為業務關係從事或參與國防安全事務的人員那這一類是依照國防法由國防部所屬的保防安全單位來辦理安全查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3172.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3192.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
第四類是國家自動安全研究院人員依照該院的設置條例授權速發部來訂定查核辦法是由治安院及速發部來辦理安全查核檢討四項第一個是因辦理查核的人員的提列範圍擁有不足目前是採正面表列有1328個職務必須辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3195.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3217.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那個特殊查核但是這1328個職務不含立法院及各地方自治團體等具有揭秘的條件的人員而且僅限於特定職務容易導致真正有揭秘人的沒有被納管那第二個是受查核人因為他的查核的項目違反這個真實揭露義務欠缺這個處罰的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3220.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3248.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那第三個部分是查核項目沒有納入財務信用以及債務狀況那第四個缺失是任期期間的定期不定期查核的機制欠缺那在防治措施的部分第一點是全面檢視何時提列因查核的對象並以所任職務揭秘的條件來作為依據那第二是增訂受查核人違反這個查核項目真實揭露義務的處罰規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3250.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3279.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那第三是查核項目建議增加這個財務債信的狀況那第四個部分是增設在任職期間定期及不定期的查核機制那第五個部分是納入內部人事陣風的安全查核來作為協力那遇到有異常的時候應該要啟動訪談的機制機先來發現安全的風險那第六是參考外國的立法例定定專法一體納管以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3289.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3307.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天奉邀列席會員會召開的軍事審判專庭之執行現況並就共諜滲透 機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件忠誠安全核可機制會議進行專題報告本署對這個議題說明如下第一本署的這個業務執掌作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3309.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3335.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
督導全國政風機構落實機關安全跟公務機密維護的工作我們依照政風機構強化機關安全及公務機密維護的實施方案第一我們辦理了公務機密跟安全維護的檢查資訊使用管理集合第二提列機關的廉政風險人員掌握涉密人員的出境及反台通報掌握公務員附路及反台通報收報影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3336.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3357.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
國家安全或利益之餘的違常案件辦理正風人員維護業務的教育訓練那本署因為也是國安防護工作的一員會與國安團隊橫向通報發揮國安的聯防那麼未來呢我們也會加強盤點一支洩密的業務及風險的人員那麼在強化具體座位上加強的 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3358.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3381.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
涉密業務內控的集合跟檢查機制然後加長教育宣導建立公務人員或機關人員的國安意識那麼廉政風險人員的風險控管在這個部分上公險人員不適合擔任機敏的職務那也會適時提醒機關的首長對於這樣的就是對於公務機敏業務上面的一個直期輪調那另外精進機關內對同仁隊異常 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3385.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3401.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
或者滲透案件的舉報機制、從優的獎勵、保護吹哨、揭弊納機落實機密文件的保密措施及檢核機制也增進政風機構掌握、附入及出境的異常跟滲透的情勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3402.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3431.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那另外有關於中層安全核可機制那目前是因為由這個人事機構跟調局來做辦理那麼依照公務員任用法第四條第二項公務人員涉及到國家安全或重大利益的時候的辦理特殊查核那麼也依照涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核的辦法第二條跟第四條那這個部分就是由這個各主管機關報請總統府國家安全會議或主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3432.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3452.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
的一個院會會同考試院公告那為各機關任用公務人員前會含情法務部調查局做特殊的查核那有關於這個部分上如果需要那個聯任署這個協助的話我們會盡力的協助以上好 謝謝署長那請問今天提出書院報告的機關有補充報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3454.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3471.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那沒有的話我先宣告一下剛剛議事人員有聯繫國安會那國安會的說法就是說依照憲政的慣例所以他們今天不會出來那當然因為我剛剛也有請議事人員要跟他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3472.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3493.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
特別提到說多元康委員在2013年的時候也特別有就這種案子甚至他還於譴責所以國安會得到我們這樣訊息之後還是表示不願意過來那以上就跟委員會報告那今天所以那個黃委員有沒有什麼要補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3498.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3526.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我其實在剛剛上面的時候我已經把話說得非常清楚了那如果國安會全力傲慢到這樣子的程度的話之前提醒他們的先例那個是民進黨他們提的潛車案國家安全會議組織法裡面也規範的這麼明確那恐怕是我們自己這個國會要重新的去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3529.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3556.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
不是像國家安全會議所講的什麼憲政慣例如果這是所謂的憲政慣例的話那國家安全會議組織法第八條是違憲還是拒穩更何況之前都有潛力被譴責過了這個恐怕是本院要去深思所謂國會的監督國家安全會議組織法第八條到底要怎麼落實的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3559.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3584.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
不過我覺得也不要影響今天實質會議的進行因為如果因為國安會展現出了權力的傲慢吳釗燮事情這麼大動了結果還以為大家沒有辦法對他怎麼樣我看我們後續再來處理不要妨礙今天其他機關跟委員的巡大 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3585.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3614.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
是 跟黃委員說明我這邊當然是很希望說國安會能夠派人來所以今天我並沒有指定說國安會要派哪一個層級的人來我等於是給予國安會最大的空間所以今天的簽調表上面你並沒有看到國安會是哪一個特定的人所以我這邊已經給予國安會完全的善意讓他自己可以決定要派哪一個層級的人來因為這跟2013年又有一點不太一樣因為我們今天是國安會秘書長他的身邊的助理涉共諜案 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3615.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3632.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
這是非常非常非常嚴重的事情尤其是國安會是在總統府裡面他是要保護我們國家安全就自己的秘書長的助理涉犯共諜案這麼嚴重的事所以我才會很正式的希望今天他們能夠來說明但是他自認為他不需要受到民意的監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3633.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3655.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那我想說這部分他自己要違法那還有而且違反我心中認為我剛所說的憲法的規定憲法規定非常的清楚既然他要做這樣子的違法那我想說我們自己要不要就像當初段怡康的做法要要於譴責這部分我們會再思考好謝謝那我想我們就接著趕快會議的進行好那接完待 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3661.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3679.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
今晚代表都已經報告完畢那相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄那我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為八分鐘必要時得延長兩分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為五分鐘並不再延長那我們現在請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3688.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3712.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩有請法務部部長調查局局長要協助可以一起上來部長好 局長好今年部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3714.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3722.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
在辦調查局局長交接的時候下令要強化偵辦國安案件我今天看了法務部的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3724.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3749.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
針對國安案件你們整理出了三種嚴重的類型一個是科技掏空一個是借選滲透一個是發展組織利用軍人拍攝投降影音這個是今天法務部所提出來的書面報告這部長名字掛的報告部長很清楚來我請問一下部長現在色誘透過色誘的方式來吸收成為共諜的類型嚴不嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3754.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3769.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
因為媒體說很嚴重嘛但你們的書面報告裡面提都沒提啊我想說是活在平行時空啊還是法務部在寫報告的時候有一些特殊的地雷要閃不敢寫色誘的類型嚴不嚴重媒體說很嚴重啊你們法務部的報告半個字都沒提啊嚴不嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3779.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3800.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
你總知道什麼類型嚴重 知道往哪邊加強偵辦啊那種被色誘的 輕功舔中的照片出來了就說是deep-seek結果給調查局去鑑定鑑定完的結果又不敢跟社會大眾講丟人現眼啊丟人現眼啊不是假訊息不是身為 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3810.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3835.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
啊法務部的報告半個字都不敢提來現在啊綠色共諜啊攻佔我們民主進步黨的府院黨啊這個在法務部報告的第幾類型啊因為我看那三個類型這裡面沒有辦法歸類為任何一類啊結果法務部的報告是不是要考慮重寫增設第四類型 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3839.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3848.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
部長請回答這邊我們是以整理目前較多的一個主要的這樣還不夠多一個報告這樣子還不夠多 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3851.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3875.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這樣還覺得少就對了這個應該這個這個綠色所謂什麼這個共諜橫行那這部分我們都有查緝這個也是我們根據我們這些的一個一個情資而查到的我們一個一個來啦現在我在挑戰的是你法務部今天送來立法院的報告寫的對不對完不完整吧這個我們寫的都說很正確就是把所有我們所謂的所謂我就問你嘛呃這個是放在第幾類型我們再來加強嘛好 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3879.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3898.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
我就是有指教嘛 放不進你那三個類型嘛 那就請你加強嘛那這個類型的話我們可以 我們這是主要的類型嘛那我們並沒有否認所有 剛剛委員就講這些的一個類型好 我們一步一步來喔現在何仁杰遭到羈押吳釗燮長期待在身邊的親信針對何仁杰洩漏國家機密這樣子的犯行 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3906.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3928.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
目前偵辦 吳釗燮該不該一起偵辦這個吳秘書長有沒有這些的一個問題我想這個是我不會干涉指導 干涉介入個案那這個檢察官如果有證據的話我想任何人只要涉及供帖我想檢察只有犯罪選員就會依法來偵辦說得很好嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3929.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3952.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那大家就接著看嘛看是不是有偵辦嘛我現在喔部長你看一下我上面寫不是要不要喔要不要交給檢察官嘛現在我在談的是規範的事情是該不該嘛之前我公開記者會講過啦在國安法裡面就有關於洩漏國家機密的事情有沒有處罰過示範 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3957.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3980.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這個是有處罰過失犯 這個有處罰過失犯嘛這個過失的態樣要如何來加以界定應該注意 沒有注意能夠注意 卻沒有注意養一個共諜在他身邊那麼久洩漏了國家機密他有沒有注意義務他有注意義務吧他有盡到他的注意義務嗎來 請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3984.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3996.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
這個是指過失或是指過失的一個洩漏交付等等的這些的一個行為嘛而不是說旁邊有供點的話他就那些也有所以嘛現在部長在解釋法條的時候順便就把五招線給開脫了嘛是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4001.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4023.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
沒什麼開脫啦就是有合乎到犯罪的過程要見當然檢查只有犯罪性檢查就會立案沒關係啊 全體國人大家都睜大眼睛繼續看嘛看我們檢察官辦案的標準嘛有沒有雙標嘛這個沒有雙標就依法偵辦有犯罪行為就是依法嚴判我們繼續往下看喔 何仁杰他受國家機密保護法26條列管的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4025.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4039.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
這個我去調過了這個問題我問了非常久發函給外交部啊外交部是用普通件不是用密件回函所以確認了何仁杰他是國家親密保護法26條啊列管的對象下一個問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4042.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4064.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
針對有關於涉及國家安全的查核工作今天局長有報告嘛是屬於調查局負責幫忙查核的範圍嘛有一般的安全查核有特殊的安全查核就何仁傑的部分他算不算是屬於特殊安全考核的對象之一何仁傑他有經過一次的這個特殊查核什麼時候105年5月105年5月來看一下局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4070.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4098.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
只有一次來看一下涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法第五條第一項的規定第五條第一項說各機關辦理特殊查核應該在他出任在任或轉任第二條鎖定職務前辦理完畢所以你講的2016年的查核指的是他剛開始進入國家安全會議的時候所進行的查核嗎是好 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4099.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4125.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那他到2017年隨著吳釗燮去總統府秘書長辦公室的時候有沒有在查核這個部分有還是沒有沒有在為什麼沒有按照法條的規定不是應該要在辦查核嗎那個是要由機關的人事單位來通知我們所以是總統府沒有通知總統府秘書長是沒有通知所以沒有辦就有關和人節的部分就是查過2016年對嘛現在喔 局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4126.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4139.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我們是法律人啦所以我把法條翻出來給你看嘛我們一條一條來不要混在一起講啦第一個按照法律的規定他從國安會到總統府秘書長了 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4141.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4156.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
需不需要再辦查核按照法條的規定他在載任或出任載任或是調任這個特殊查核職務這是不是調任是嘛應該要辦應該要辦嘛說清楚嘛法條說應該要辦卻沒有辦現在我問題來了法條說他轉任應該要辦但是卻沒有提報上來要辦這個責任誰要負這個應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4170.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4191.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
推給人事機構的人說最基層的那個人事機構的人扛責對嘛現在就是法規上應該要做現實上沒有在做所以我才請教你嘛這件事情誰要負責還是沒有人需要負責反正清拆瞎下來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4194.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4207.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
誰要負責這個是人事行政總署人事行政總署要負責喔哇 你這樣講可能人事長多在辦公室裡面想說我躺在床上也中槍蛤 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4210.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4238.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
總統府秘書長是沒有報查核結果是人事長要負責這樣對嗎沒有法條是人事行政總署主管啦好好好沒有關係那個可能到時候齁主席再排一下請人事長來啊因為調查局局長說他要負責啊沒有我是我要講清楚法條是人事行政總署主管但是這個要提出查核是用人機關要主管是嘛就是用人機關嘛那用人機關不就是吳釗燮嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4240.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4268.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
到外交部的時候他有沒有在辦查核沒有嘛是不是沒有在外交部要看他的那個來來來看一下啦剛剛你講的一千多種我都幫你整理出來了嘛外交部秘書辦理部長室秘書業務人員辦理部長室是機要業務啊這不就是這個不就是和人節的位置嗎到外交部的時候還有在辦特殊查核嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4270.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4289.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
有嗎 沒有吧所以現在變成的是什麼 用人機關要負責嘛總統府秘書長要負責嘛外交部部長要負責嘛都是吳昭憲帶在身邊的人辦一次 後來都不用辦那不是吳昭憲要負責 誰要負責來 再往下看吳尚宇 有沒有辦特殊查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4300.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4318.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
一樣啦這個是當初副總統辦公室的參議啦他有沒有辦特殊查核有還是沒有他為什麼可以不辦特殊查核放在副總統辦公室耶處理機密業務耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4319.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4335.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
結果現在這個共諜才發現原來我們的安全查核機制啊是形同具穩啦 形同具穩啦不僅和人節 和人節只辦一次 吳尚宇是連辦都沒有辦過誰要負責 誰要負責用人機關要負責 剛剛你講的嘛 隨時來清德要負責嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4344.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4370.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
他辦公室的人啊人事單位要負責又推給人事人員啊人事單位要主動喊給我們來特殊查核是不是可以請調查局回去追究今天發函給用人機關依法該查核為什麼沒有查核你如果連這件事情都不敢做今天來這邊報告安全查核機制不是很好笑嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4371.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4389.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我們已經討論出來了嘛所以我現在要你問他嘛你當初為什麼沒有送來辦查核這不是國家安全的漏洞嗎法規上面應該要查核 現實上沒有查核如果這樣不是個問題 那什麼是問題如果這不是問題 什麼是問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4397.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4402.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
還是試射我們現在的總統很尷尬問都不敢問皮球踢來踢去現在不想要怎麼踢太尷尬了現在被抓起來這個連查核都沒查核蛤 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4424.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4437.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
這不是檢討制度的問題而已啊這個是依照現在的制度應該要做卻沒有做但是我們負責查核的機關法務部調查局顯然不敢追究責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4440.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4463.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
報委員 這個責任不是我們調查局要去追究我知道嘛 所以我要你去追究責任嘛在整個體制裡面我們是被動 我知道我們是被動所以我要你去報委員去問用人器官機關什麼時候要用人 他要調什麼人這個是機關的人事的事件我們也不會知道沒錯 你說的都對所以我要你去問嘛去問用人器官啊你當初怎麼沒有報這個人來給我們調查局查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4466.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4490.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我想這個不是我們調查局的這個不是你們調查局的喔應該要報給你們 卻沒有報給你們還不是調查局的職責 那是誰的職責這個才是最大的問題嘛對嘛 但是沒有人敢去追究用人機關的責任嘛事情不就是這樣嗎 超級清楚的沒有人敢去追究啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4496.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4518.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
來 請教一下部長我們洩密的對象啊洩漏給一般的國家跟洩漏給中國啊刑責上啊 法定刑應不應該區別對待 贊不贊成加重對中國洩密的刑責 贊不贊成這是一個立法政策的問題是 所以你贊不贊成這個要廣大意見要廣大意見嘛當初啊 邱泰山反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4523.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4551.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
他很明確啊 邱太三反對啊那奇怪了我們的總統不是把中國講成制定境外敵對勢力洩密給境外敵對勢力當然要加重處罰啊結果現在法務部要強化國安 要防止洩密連洩密給中國法定刑要提高這件事情都不敢講怕尷尬喔 怕尷尬是不是因為之前民進黨政府反對過啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4554.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4578.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
之前邱太三反對過啊我第一次當立委的時候為了這個事情跟邱太三辯論了幾次他反對啊到院會表決的時候民進黨一再阻擋不處理拖到2029年拖到2019年不得不處理了最後是什麼最後把提高對中國洩密的處罰封殺 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4582.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4596.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
把提高對中國泄密的處罰封殺難怪你今天只能夠軟軟的說要廣納社會意見法務部連這個基本態度都不敢表達被封殺了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4597.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4623.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
你可以請你的幕僚把整個立法的歷程整理給你看啦在立法院公報裡面通通都有啦我希望喔我也利用這個機會公開呼籲我們國家機密保護法洩密給中共加重處罰台灣民眾黨立院黨團已經提案了希望著點神意啊到時候希望法務部啊能夠勇敢的支持 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請林倩琦委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4636.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4653.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
謝謝主席 府院同仁大家好我現在這邊請司法院的副秘書長和法務部部長還有國防部大概就兩位處長 對不起 國防部今天的代表國防部代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4663.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4684.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
主席 大家好我們今天就是因為我們來共同面對這個共諜滲透的一個狀況然後來探討我們軍事審判跟國安體系的一個落差所以今天這個軍事審判制度跟國安執法的這個缺口我想希望透過今天大家的探討然後再做一個系統性的一個處理跟改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4686.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4713.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
剛才在報告裡面 鳳姨書長也談到了2013年修法之後基本上我們的軍事審判已經大幅轉向平時的法院的一個管轄在暫時才會回復軍法系統但是為了配合過渡跟備戰的需要其實在現在的整個軍事審判法的第五條 第二項規定地方法院也設如您所講的專庭跟專股來負責國防安全跟軍機有關的特殊案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4714.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4733.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那現在這個制度大概實行了多少年了?軍事審判庭運作的情形又如何呢?兩位從那個103年1月13號開始到現在11年嗎?11年多對,如您報告所講的那運作的情形如何呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4735.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4752.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
運作情形我們目前都成立那個專庭跟那個專股然後那個有專門的那個法官那法官也要接受那個培訓是這個您剛才在報告裡面有講過這個運作上有沒有什麼樣子的一個需要討論跟改變的空間呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4754.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4778.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
目前就是大家比較關心的就是說那個量刑量刑是不是就是符合那個外界那個期待那這個在那個108年的時候有一個重要的一個關鍵點是那個在國安法那個修法之後呢法定刑已經大幅那個提高了所以這個除了量刑以外你們對於其他的目前這個狀況都沒有覺得有什麼需要再處理的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4779.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4797.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
當然就是說法官的那個賠率也必須再更那個一步那個精進那另外就是說像有些那個案件對於就是說譬如說是不是那個機密那個鑑定啊這個部分我想也要跟就是他在時間上或者說專業上也必須跟這可能就跟相關的部會有一點關係嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4798.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4821.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
所以如果照您這樣所講我們整個軍事審判的專庭已經運作了很多年那目前看起來好像沒有需要回復軍事審判庭的必要嘛所以你們也有我們運作多年目前的狀況好像還持平嘛那案件呢基本上也非常熟悉了嘛處理案件的狀況也非常熟悉了嘛然後你們每年都會有這個軍法的訓練還有一些暫時演練的課程嘛如您所講的十二個學分 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4825.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4840.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
然後再來在軍刑法呢也有暫時的一個特殊的規定所以這個軍事法庭還需要再這樣子回覆嗎本席這邊有一些質疑跟懷疑的所以這個是不是請你們再做一個探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4842.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4869.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那這邊談到一個也請那個法務部這邊一起來了解本席所講的軍方的訓練是為了領導統一因此會採取上命下從但是審判的制度呢是必須要獨立所以獨立審判者不能受到上級命令或指導更不可以被其他勢力所影響那這個是軍方做不到的所以您怎麼看待現在這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4871.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4896.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那個軍事審判是否要恢復到整個要修法要恢復到部分的一些的那我們是這不是我們法務部主管的法規那我想您的看法呢您的看法我想這邊我不談我個人看法這是一個國家的那個軍事審判的一個政策的一個一個是否合乎到現實的一個需要那這邊我們都尊重這個整個一個一個全責監修國安部 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4896.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4915.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
的一個決定所以司法院法務部都尊重相關的這個單位那國防部要不要因為這個不是我們主管的法規這個軍事審判這是軍事審判法及相關的這些法令它的主管機關都是國安部但是這相關的系統都跟你們有關國防部的代表要不要來回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4919.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4943.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
委員好,我是國防部法律司法紀大樓處處長王振宜就剛剛委員所提過的部分,軍事審判制度是否恢復的部分,回應如下第一個,總統在3月13號宣示的這個恢復軍事審判的一個相關的一個條件之下其實本部在當天的記者會上也有強調在說明就是說其實就現行的軍事審判法來看的話,暫時還是要恢復軍事審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4945.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4966.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那恢復軍事審判還是由軍法官來從事相關的審判工作本席這邊提醒你們一下在你們公告的這件事情之後呢其實我們還有所謂軍法官的這個問題那軍法官從先前整個業務移撥到這個法院之後呢專股專庭他們也已經差不多熟悉了那你們軍法官的運作有多久沒有運作了 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4967.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4979.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
應該有11年103年開始就沒有再從事那如果都沒有再運作你覺得現在適宜嗎報委員這個部分其實我們有在同步規劃就是未來如果恢復軍事審判的話我們就軍法官的訓練部分會協請 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4981.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5011.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
司法院及法務部給予我們那為什麼不像現在這樣子的現狀處理就好了因為就是剛剛有提到暫時審判的部分還是需要有審判制度未來規劃還是由軍法官來從事而不是由司法官那軍法官就如您所講的十幾年沒有運作但是在法院呢在專股或專庭的運作上已經也有一些經驗了那為什麼不就現行的這個體制去做處理又要回復在過去民進黨政府一直非常反對的軍事審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5011.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5025.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
包委員因為這個其實在審判制度有兩個就是平時跟暫時的兩個制度那現在是就平時的部分來做一個轉換那暫時如果本席所講的軍刑法也有一些暫時的特殊規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5026.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5054.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那是用對實體法部分確實是有這樣子的特殊規定你又要執行已經很久沒有執行的軍法官的這個系統那現在現行已經執行到有一點經驗的法院那你為什麼要這樣子做沒有效度的一個事情包委員這個其實就是整體來看就是從平時以外暫時因為我們暫時還是軍法官要回到這個審判事務工作所以看起來我們好像沒有辦法溝通嘛對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5055.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5069.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
你們一直想著暫時然後軍閥可是現在在過渡的時期其實也有一些機制去做處理那為什麼不就目前已經累積相關機制的這個系統來做未來有可能延伸的一個處理所以這個是不是請你們跨部會把這樣子的一個邏輯帶進去好嗎是 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5076.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5083.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
好 謝謝接下來國防部的相關人員國防部的代表對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5087.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5107.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好 那現在在我們面對整個涉及軍機或戰備演訓的這個案件時那目前建構了具機密資訊保護機制的一個審判環境相關物證跟資料保全如何兼顧司法程序與國安維護那請問國防部這個部分你們怎麼來因應呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5112.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5114.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那這個部分我想在兩個單位裡面一直是有一些問題的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5126.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5152.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
跟向委員報告我是國安部保防安全署處長簡英宏有針對有關我們涉及到共諜案件的人員有87.5%都是由我們官民主動檢舉那有關涉及到我們國軍內部的機密資訊的部分我們都會配合檢調機關針對所外流的資訊都會予以做審認真的嗎對予以提供副秘書長你們確實是都這樣子嗎你覺得呢真的是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5153.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5160.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
向委員說明現在截至目前每個個案所外流資訊都是由檢調機關含請國安部來做機密資訊的審認依照審認的各層級我們會同各產製單位以及各聯參實施複審之後提供給檢查機關來與審認來予以拒判處重刑包含畢好謝謝處長這邊那個念台詞好那謝謝啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5181.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5199.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
其實這個東西跟各部會都有很大的關係那我們也知道實際執行上其實有的時候都有一點空法定得很重但是執行的效度上跟執行的實際面確實是有很大的問題所以本席在這邊談一下在司法面我們在刑法第109條到113條 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5202.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5228.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
已經針對內亂外患罪已經有一些規範了但是共諜案如果沒有軍機或暫時的情節適用性有限所以檢查體系目前仍以國安法刑法或兩岸人民關係條例來進行起訴但是條文的設計跟太陽其實有一些脫節所以就會導致近期的這幾個案件讓人有所質疑那我們知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5229.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5250.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
前行政院長游錫坤的辦公室助理盛楚英一直到總統府的吳尚宇這幾個案件其實都讓人民感到非常的質疑所以像盛楚英僅僅20萬元交保但是他已經長期在接受各種類型的資金的 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5252.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5269.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那這個部分以20萬元交保但是卻已經影響在國安法裡面已經有針對敵對勢力發展組織或洩露國家機密者刑期其實是7年以上然後盛楚英這樣子的行為收受外幣或虛擬貨幣的狀況已經持續了6年這難道沒有到一個長期性的狀態嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5279.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5298.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
這個刑期跟拒保是不是一定要有一定的連帶關係這個法律沒有 這個是兩碼事啦那剛才委員關心就是那個性性人士的那個拒保的一個問題那個拒保20萬 那個拒保最主要是羈押的替代處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5299.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5311.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
他是認為沒有羈押的必要就用保證金的方式來防止他的一個仿討這是仿討的一個機制是一個保全證我們知道這其實是為了防止潛逃跟滅證的風險我想陳辦的檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5318.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5332.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我想他會就個案以及證據收集的來做一個以及他的必要性來做一個認定那個有沒有羈押必要就刑事訴訟101條的一個規定如果有羈押的必要我想檢察會申請法院來羈押 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5333.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5352.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
所以這個其實這樣子的結果其實帶給外界很多的質疑所以我們知道你為了防止潛逃跟滅政然後在國安的案件裡面有沒有仍然可能跟敵對勢力保持聯絡或者是其組織的殘餘接觸的能力還有動用地下資金逃亡的這個管道我想這個應該都要納入風險評估的 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5355.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5384.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
最後因為時間的關係本席還是語重心長的做一個提醒我們現行的國家安全法反滲透法還有刑法內亂外患規範雖然構成某一些條件但檢查體系對於所謂的敵對勢力的舉證認定與標準還有相關單位證據提供的一個適宜性我想這應該都是各部會要好好的來做一個系統性處理的才不會讓我們在整個法條上好像高法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5385.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5404.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
但是低適用 那整個處理出來的狀態 其實讓人民對於法治教育 其實產生了很多信心的危機好 那以上請各部門好好的做一個討論 好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝 那下一位我們請陳培宇委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5411.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5417.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
好 謝謝主席那有請司法院法務部還有警政署司法院法務部警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5429.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5445.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
好 那我想要先看一下週末有一個新聞但是可能你們都不一定有注意到就是關於竹北涉嫌虐童的教練之前三百萬交保但是呢 出境未到未到庭法院發布通緝令我不知道你們有沒有看到這個新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5446.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5470.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
好有看到這個新聞那我們來看一下這件事情事實上造成非常多家長群組的恐慌大家都在問關於虐童的事件好不容易好像台灣的行政機關有了比較多積極的作為可是到底這件事情是哪裡破了洞怎麼會讓這個虐童案甚至這個人還有相關金融犯罪的事情正在審判當中但是我們就讓他出境了我們就讓他逃跑了我們來看一下事實上這個案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5473.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5502.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
案子是在去年的10月那我非常感谢相关的检察官在2月的部分就已经起诉了我认为非常的有效率虽然当时检察官有申请羁押可是法官当下没有裁准严押那我们在新闻里面看到其实当时这个法官如果新闻是可信当时这个法官他对于嫌犯的做法并不认同甚至法官有提到这个嫌犯有试图灭证的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5502.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5521.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
所以最後呢裁定300萬交保並且限制居住但是沒有限制出境我要再強調一次沒有限制出境所以他後來就逃跑了到3月的時候要開庭看不到人發現他逃跑了到了4月法院才公佈要沒入300萬保證金發布通緝還請領務局註銷他的護照 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5527.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5546.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我想要问在这件事情上我们到底出了什么事情一个一个来我想先问法务部关于这个案件当时检察官有没有看告对于法官所做出的没有裁准严压然后呢也没有限制出境当时这个做法检察官有没有提出看告 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5548.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5573.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
在2月5日那個起訴醫審法院的時候那個法院那是沒有通知檢察官到庭及表達意見所以檢察官是沒有到庭陳述意見的機會那所以法官這直接就裁定300萬的一個交保跟限制秩序他每天到派出所報到這個法院這個也沒有裁定到目前為止都沒有送有裁定 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5573.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5594.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
送到檢察官 所以檢到目前都完全沒有辦法去提出抗告了解了 好 那就您的立場喔就您的立場 你覺得這個案子在這樣的處理過程上有沒有瑕疵這個以我們檢方來講 我們是沒有瑕疵的對好 那院方我就要請那個來回答好 那我們來聽一下院方你們的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5598.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5613.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
這個程序部分我們可能還要再跟那個新竹地院再查明是不是這個情況查明是不是這個情況的意思是要查明什麼情況程序上就是裁定送達的問題是裁定送達的問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5619.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5631.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
我想要請你們多說一點為什麼會發生這個事情那當時法官他們的態度到底是什麼他明明自己都說了他認為他有滅證的嫌疑而且他也不認同嫌犯的做法但是為什麼還是做出了這個裁決 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5634.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5649.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
關於那個法官就是說他怎麼決定就是要不要羈押要不要繼續延押或者是用什麼那個替代的那個處分還沒有做限制出境的處分喔這個是那個法官他們個別就是個案的那個裁量 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5650.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5663.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那邊我們行政就是司法行政也不變智慧就是說好這個我們當然尊重我之前您說出司法行政我們不方便智慧但是我認為這件事情看起來其實是有問題的對不對而且現在這個人呢已經氣飽潛逃 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5665.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5679.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
那我們不知道後續虐童案的進度可是我認為這件事情其實是讓非常多家長都覺得非常不滿那個焦慮不是來自於我的小孩可能會再送到這個人手上而是我們整個司法系統為什麼對於這樣的虐童案如此的輕忽我覺得是這個態度的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5681.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5702.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我覺得這個部分一定要注意不然我覺得我們做了再多關於兒少修法保護的努力但是我覺得我們家長不會有感我們的孩子也不會有感那甚至有更多的兒少代表他們也會對這件事情表達不滿到底要怎麼樣要什麼樣的強度才能讓這些不管是司法系統或者是檢調系統的人認為這件事情是重要的而且是非常非常嚴肅的 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5704.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5723.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
謝謝委員好 那我想要問一下警政署我們現在有辦法掌握他的行蹤嗎我個人認為是有困難啦因為他要到派手來做報到但是他已經棄保潛逃出境他沒有來報到那我們趕快通報DM才知道他潛逃 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5724.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5747.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
就是按照正常程序當然是這樣嘛我也知道我會得到這樣的回答但是我還是要請你們說清楚因為現在有非常多公民或是家長都會看所有立法院的直播我覺得相關的責任分工一定要搞清楚到底哪裡出了差錯所以我想不管是司法院這邊或者是警政署這邊或者是法務部這邊我覺得我們應該要共同來討論這件事情真的真的非常的嚴肅再來我要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5750.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5767.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
他没有被限制出境可是我要再次提醒这个人他不是只有虐童他还有涉犯金融犯罪不罚所得超过上千万如果我们来看一下什么样的情况下检察官或者是法官可以限制他限制出境出海 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5768.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5797.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
如果我們回到法規範來看我的投影片有寫得很清楚我們認為他有相當的理由或者是有逃亡之餘或者是我們認為有相當的理由認為他有湮滅、偽造、變造證據或者是勾串共犯或證人之餘者我們應該要限制出境這就是為什麼我剛剛一直請教院方為什麼法官會做出這樣的裁定我們覺得真的要給人民一個交代要給家長一個交代要給在乎兒少權利的人一個交代可不可以請院方再就這個部分回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5801.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5810.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
目前起訴到法院就是虐童這個部分那這個涉及金融這個部分他現在還在那個起訴還在偵查中 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5811.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5836.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我當然知道還在偵查中但我要再次強調我們真的認為如果你就一般老百姓來看這個法規範大家會認為他其實就已經當時可以限制出境了可能就不會有今天這個獨家新聞跑出來然後害你們還要站在這邊被我質詢這個問題而且我要再次強調當時這個人他之所以要被羈押是因為就是檢察官對他提起所有的這些事情是因為他虐童 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5836.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5859.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那雖然小孩現在還活著好像是看起來罪不自死可是我要說這件事情其實當時引起非常非常多的討論而且虐童案一而再再而再的發生我們來看一下社會上到底有多關注虐童案我們在公共政策倡議平台上近五年如果我們用虐童作為關鍵字光是成案的就超過九件 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5860.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5875.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
什麼意思呢我不知道各位長官你們知不知道這個公共政策平台要呈案有多麼的困難基本上他比現在在街頭罷免連署志工在做事情還要困難他用手機跟email雙認證他才可以完成這個簽署連署後面後續的連署 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5877.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5897.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
所以呢有這麼多人在關心兒虐案這件事情我覺得整個社會語情的方向你們一定要搞清楚而不是認為它只是單一虐童個案或者是只是再一個再一個再一個並不是這樣的在社會大眾的眼裡看起來是好像整個系統對於像這樣的人是包容的是縱放的或者是我們好像不是那麼積極 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5898.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5917.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
所以我今天花這麼多時間我之所以在司法法治委員會一再問兒少這件事情就是他可能在你們過去的政策視野當中你們是很容易忽略的你們覺得就只是另外一個個案就只是另外一個個案但我要告訴你們真的不是這樣光是公共政策平台而虐兒的部分成案了有九案更不要講如果我把 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5919.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5940.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
額虐這兩個字拿掉 我用更廣泛的耳哨案件來定義那就更多人在公共政策倡議平台上不斷想要告訴我們行政機關我們有多麼在意這件事情那這正巧是你們可以做的事情可以嗎好 那我想相關的檢討報告不管是法務部 司法院 警政署可不可以在一個月內提交相關檢討報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5942.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5952.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
可以嗎 那警政署也可以嗎好 謝謝你們我覺得共同關心這件事情真的非常重要好 謝謝 請回那接下來我要請調查局我們回到今天的主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5954.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5981.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
好 那調查局在移動的過程當中我就先說在你們的調查報告裡面我看到我非常給予肯定你們關於安全查核的對象跟法源你們做出了整理看起來其實也是給立法院相關的建議你們很重要的提到立法院還有地方自治團體等其他政府機關內具有接觸 知悉 持有 存取或使用機敏資料的公務人員目前都不是查核對象 對不對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5982.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6004.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
好那關於這件事情我們其實也提了相關的修法建議對不對我來看一下而且你們提到該精進的事項我覺得也講得很具體一個是救法員的部分也就是我現在頭影片寫的一跟二關於還有關於查核項目沒有列入財務信用我覺得這件事情也很重要確實在很多共點案的線索裡面我們看到當事人其實是有財務困難有財務破口的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6007.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6031.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
再來第四個 任職於前查核欠缺任職期間定期跟不定期的查核也就是有些人可能在入職前做了查核後續就沒有再做查核謝謝你們提出的建議喔那你們的 針對你們這些建議你們甚至提了精進的內容第六點 我的投影片上用紅色來表示我想問一下你們這個做法應該是參考美國跟德國的做法 對嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6032.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6058.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
好那你們要不要多說一下為什麼你們認為這個做法在台灣真的可行嗎因為學者專家的報告是一回事但是落實在現場到底可不可行我覺得這個才是最重要的是我想我們就是盡量去參考外國比較先進的這些立法例那當然還要經過跨部會的一些協商還有這個貴院的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6059.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6076.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
聽起來其實還需要很多討論但是我今天要給予調查局的報告給予高度的肯定你們找出現行的問題然後也提出具體的建議做法那我時間有限我想我就簡單的拜託調查局針對相關檢討事項跟規劃有沒有機會在一個月內相關提出相關的會議結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6078.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6094.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我們可以提出我們的精進的一個建議比較詳細的做法但是跨部會的行政的協商我想因為特查辦法是由行政院人事行政總處他是主管的機關我想這個我們要尊重那個人總 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6094.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6119.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
好 沒關係但是就你們自己更內部更清楚的資料可以先給我們自己跨部會的部分也許你們可以先簡單提出一個想像跟規劃我們再來看看有沒有機會促成跨部會的討論第二個 相關的立法程序有沒有機會在兩個月內給我們立法院相關立法建議給司法委員會的所有委員參考是 可以可以喔 好 謝謝還有謝謝委員好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝那我們下一位請審法會委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6134.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6146.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
主席我先請司法院副秘書長麻煩司法院副秘書長另外是不是也請國防部國防部今天有兩位代表我們請法律事務司的處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6154.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6169.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
我們今天的主題第一個部分是有關軍事審判專庭跟專股執行的現況這個部分目前我們是依照國安法第19條我們都設有國安軍事專業案件的專庭跟專股未來但是在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6176.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6191.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
這個今年我們總統有宣示那我們這個部長也有表示我們未來將會要恢復這個軍事審判制度恢復軍事審判制度之後這個未來這個有關國安跟軍事的審判專庭的部分應該會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6192.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6211.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
會有所改變,制度會有所改變所以我大概這是先請國防部來說明一下目前有關這個軍事這個我們部長也提到說強調說要確保未來這個軍法官的獨立性我目前的規劃跟這個進度怎麼樣我們這個有關於這個這個軍法官的未來這個來源跟他現在狀況的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6213.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6239.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
好 委員好 我是國防部法律司法律調查處處長那至於這個剛委員提到這個軍法官獨立的部分因為其實這次修法除了軍事審判制度以外其實最重要的就是針對組織跟人事部分要設計出一個法律來保障軍法官獨立審判的一個對 這個是最重要的那這部分其實我們目前都在參考司法院法官法我們現在國防部有沒有開始跟司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6240.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6254.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
來進行有關於未來這個法官包括法官人才來源的這個相關的討論有沒有開啟還是你們其實目前是國防部自己在研議目前我們部裡面在草擬條文那也會跟也會有嗎目前有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6255.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6276.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
有跟那個我們目前我們司法院有跟國防部有接到國防部有關這個本來就是預計今天早上國防部會來跟司法院洽談這方面的那個本來就今天早上要洽談後來取消了對因為我們開這個因為立法院開本委員會妨礙了這個這個你們未來軍法制度的設計的進度就對了沒有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6276.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6282.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
不是這樣子我們改時間我認為說談這麼久我們這個國防部跟司法院應該就未來這個軍法官確保軍法官獨立性的這些相關制度設計以及法官的來源我們應該要有所接觸應該要有所研習才對啊好那這部分國防部我們請回我接下來請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6299.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6328.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
那在這個未來這個軍事審判制度這個恢復之前這個目前我們的所採取的這個所謂國安軍事審判專庭專股的這個目前的這個狀況我就目前的狀況來跟這個我們的這個副秘書長來這邊指教一下這個我們現在目前是依照國安法第19條所以我們這國安要設置國安跟這個這個軍事專業案件的專庭專股 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6329.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6347.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那在這個國安法第19條之下我們這個司法院有一個有關各級法院法官辦理案件年度司法事務分配辦法對不對依照這個分配辦法下來分配哪一些案件是要屬於所謂國安跟軍事專股那我特別注意到這個辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6349.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6375.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
這個分配辦法裡面的這個附表二有關刑事失誤的部分第六項有關這個國安軍事專業案件裡面的這個裡面的第二款有提到這個上開案件與其他專業案件競合的時候由國安專業軍事法庭審理那這部分這個意思我看它競合包括如性侵原住民貪汙等等這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6378.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6400.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
的競合都有國安軍事來審理這樣的制度設計他的精神是什麼幫我委員就是其實他就是你們可能是軍人身份觸犯這些軍人身份他跟他有跟原住民身份有競合的時候你們還是由這個國安軍事專庭來審理是那有關信心案件還是由這個國安軍事來審理這樣子跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6406.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6424.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
跟我們的這個國安軍事專庭設置的這個精神會不會讓他的附和跟設置的精神有沒有漢格之處因為像那個在陳平的時候如果軍人設範那個這個軍刑法的時候這個時候是屬於那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6426.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6448.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
如果是依專庭的設計的話因為你們這個軍事你們用過去軍事審判承平時期軍事審判的觀念來設置來規定這樣子的競合辦法但是事實上這個我們的國安軍事審判專庭它裡面很重要的一個不同的職能是有關國安案件所以就國安案件的專業而言他要來整理原住民軍人身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6450.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6475.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
原住民身份在法律上面有一些不同的程序但是他卻指應他是軍人所以他把這個案件納到國安國安跟軍事專庭裡面我認為這個是有值得檢討之處因為就是在那個法院的設計裡面就是說涉及到那個如果當事人是原民的時候他有他就是原民專業那個背景那另外就是說那個國安對原民專業背景跟國安軍事專庭的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6477.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6486.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
可是在有些案件的時候它會同時發生那這個就是一種選擇就是說我們覺得哪一類的我這邊的主張就是你們是不是來檢討一下在未來在軍事審判制度恢復之前我們把這樣子的競合全部由國安軍事法庭來審理我個人認為是有值得檢討之處啦我認為說這樣子的競合我們不一定因為它軍人身份我們就要由國安專庭來審理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6503.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6522.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這樣子你會讓國安軍事專庭他的專業的角色會模糊掉而且他專業所投入的這些專業範疇也會讓他擴大黃委員我解釋一下要舉個例子今天假設說是一個原名他是那個軍人或者是說他涉犯這種共諜案的時候沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6526.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6552.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
共諜案是共諜案它即使不是共諜案但是它原住民的身份你們現在原住民身份競合了競合就是說它有涉犯國安這樣子的事情或者是說它是屬於不是喔你如果說軍人性侵軍人性侵跟國安可能它跟國安沒有任何但軍人性侵的部分它就因為它性侵它的軍人角色所以它競合了競合你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6553.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6562.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
原住民也是一樣,他有軍人又有原住民身份,你們就由國安軍事專庭來審理他涉案的不一定是國安案件不是國安案件,是由國安軍事專庭來審理 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6564.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6577.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我們現在是有兩類,一類是軍事審判,還有一個是國安那這兩個通通都是在一個鑽停我知道,所以我認為這樣子的設計是有值得檢討之處你們回去檢討,這是第一個問題我們目前國安 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6587.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6610.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
這個最大的國安專庭最大的問題就是大家認為說這個法官在國安專業上面這個有一般的一般受司法訓練他在國安方面的這些相關的這些認知可能會有所不足因此我們現在設計的是研習制度研習制度就是每年應該參加有關相關專業研習案件合計時間達12個小時一年12個小時一天做2個小時就是6天 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6615.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6623.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
一年12個小時他是不是能夠就因此具備足夠的國安專業來進行這樣的審理你們有進行相關的評估嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6627.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6646.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
我之前問你們說你們有進行意見調查意見調查結果大部分的法官都認為說有幫助有幫助是有幫助的當然是有幫助啦沒設置他當然是有幫助但是他的成效如何這個是不是用意見調查的方式而是應該你們要下去評估這樣子12個小時的研習是不是足以讓他們負擔這部分請你們要評估啦因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6650.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6670.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
事實上目前這些案件有很多案件這些延讓的很大的原因就是有關這些相關的這些橫向的聯繫都不足了你們這些有些這個機密事項到底在機密等級到底是在什麼樣的等級你們去函國防部國防部給你拖時間拖很久回覆的時間很慢然後回來的這個內容又很簡要 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6675.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6701.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
檢要或抽象讓你們法院無從就這樣的國防部所提供的相關的這些這種橫向聯繫是有很大的問題這監察院有提出報告 部長知道嗎是這部分你們有什麼樣的這個可能法務部這個法務部有關相關的這些橫向聯繫這個我們法務部這邊是不是是不是應該要由法務部這邊來建立相關的平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6701.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6725.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
他有關你平台的建立那個最高檢察署以及各地檢署都以國防部對軍事單位都有建立那個個案處理的聯繫平台那另外那個國防部啦現在目前的這些相關的國安案件我們包括司法警察包括這個這個政戰局保安處這些軍安總隊這些都這個都應該在納在這個平台之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6726.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6748.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
這個最高檢察署跟國防部有建立那個平台你這個平台用這個平台來降低你這種所有橫向聯繫目前橫向聯繫上最大的困難我剛剛講的是實務上法官所講最大的困難就是國防部回復很慢回復很慢而且回復很簡要而且很抽象去兩個月之後給你回一個就只有給你法條而已說什麼樣哪一種列A級哪一種列B級 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6750.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6769.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那舊個案他還沒有給你,必須再去函附詢問第二次這樣子這些橫向的聯繫平台,我認為法務部應該要來建議起來那這個時間的關係,再來談一個我個人認為說目前這個制度上面有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6770.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6799.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
比較重要的就是說有關我們現在有法規這個國家機密保護法第25條它規定說目前部長請回接下來是司法院的問題我們目前按照這個國家機密保護法這個法院這個第25條第一項說法院檢查機關設立是國家機密案件其程序不予公開我知道我們現在的做法幾乎這些國安案件它所有的檔案都沒有辦法公開不只是 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6800.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6820.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
沒有對社會公開連我們院內不同懲辦也都沒有公開也就是說不同的法官我根本就不曉得其他國安案件所有的審理的程序完全一無所知跟他判決的結果的相關的理由等等這些案由通通都是機密對不對我們現在目前都列機密對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6823.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6837.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那這個我個人認為說這樣子的這個當然這個國安案件他當時設計說國安案件機密他程序不已公開他有一定的基於國家安全的考量對於機密事項的考量但是這樣子的設計他對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6839.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6866.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
這個他對於這個是不是能夠進行公平的審判以及這樣子的審判他的結果是不是符合這個社會的法義這樣相關的這些監督還有這個他的程序正義究竟有沒有保障以及他的這個甚至你對於未來學界以及我們大家社會各界要研究相關的這些國安案件的關聯性他的這些國安案件的這些學術累積幾乎都不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6867.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6887.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
都妨礙到了就因為你們現在目前的這種完全不公開的這樣子的辦法使得我剛剛所講的這些都成為問題啦齁那我不是說他所以他就必須要大公開也不是那我認為說有一些像美國有一些做法我是覺得值得參考啦齁他有一些提示 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6889.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6916.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
他美國有關於這個如何提示這些機密資訊他們都有一套相關的規定有一些去識別化有一些用代號等等相關的方式而不是說整個因為他是國安案件所以他就完全就不能公開這是連不同同樣法院裡面不同的法官他也沒辦法去了解這個國安案件這個案件假案跟已案我連想參考假案的判決可能我都沒有辦法因為他是機密完全不公開的這部分是不是我們司法院檢討一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6917.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6944.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
是 那我們再研議好不好 你們研議那目前有關這個我知道你們現在國安案件最重要的你們很多都按照你們的量刑指引在判決那這個量刑指引你們也應該要有定期的檢討這個部分我未來有時間再跟我們院來進行討論好 以上好 謝謝委員好 謝謝那我們下一位請王逸川委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6966.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6992.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
今天國安會沒來嘛國安會什麼時候發公文到我們委員會沒有從來都沒有委員會的同仁委員會的主秘什麼時候收到國安會的公文要請假都沒有他從頭到尾都沒有請假我問一下可不可以問一下主秘有沒有收到公文 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6998.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7015.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
跟委員會報告我們沒有收到公文你們沒有收到公文到現在都沒收到公文原則上面就是通常公文都會有先送到召回辦公室那裡我說你們什麼時候收到國安會說他們不來的通知委員會我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7025.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7042.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我們沒有收到公文我再問一下歷史上有沒有國安會的秘書長不是在審法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7043.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7060.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
被選那個王委員剛我們在一開始開會的時候就有提到這個點因為2013年的時候當時段宜康沒有我是問有沒有他們有沒有因為預算案跟這一個法律案之外的會議國安會秘書長來立法院被選對 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7071.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7085.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那個時候是為了譴責金浦聰嘛金浦聰不該來嘛所以要譴責嘛我說在蘇雄甘武國安會秘書長非法律案跟這個預算審查的時候出現在立法院的備詢啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7092.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7112.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
這可能還需要請醫事人員查一下好了我們現在先給醫事人員 讓他們有時間去查一下那之前那個顧立雄擔任那個的時候 他是都會請假啦就沒有來啊 就請假他會請假 那現在是我這邊跟那個醫事人員這邊都沒有收到請假 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7114.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7135.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
好所以這個請查一下歷史上有沒有國安會秘書長非法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院備詢這再麻煩醫事人尤其是金浦聰的任內有沒有來過這第一個好那我就開始我的這一個請這個調查局長跟法務部長謝謝麻煩局長部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7142.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7165.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我先請教一下部長部長在你們的報告裡頭有提到關於國安的這些案件每年大概都兩位數幾十件包括國安法跟反滲透法我請問一下這些案子都是檢調主動偵辦還是相關單位的人發現可疑請你們幫忙辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7172.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7188.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
這個都有好那最近這個比較熱門的那幾個案子是單位自己提出來還是你們發現宅辦都有這個都有也都有好OK好 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7189.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7209.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那我再請問這個調查局的局長請問被安全查核的人他知不知道他正在被查核知道必須要經過他的同意因為有很多查核的項目他同意簽了名以後我們才會去進行查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7210.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7236.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那這個特殊查核,剛剛你們自己的報告也提到說因為就是出任或轉任出任、載任、調任那如果說啊,這個首長發現跟他相關的人,假設是他的司機他覺得他的司機可能洩密那他可不可以主動拜託、要求調查局幫我查 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7237.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7259.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
因為不在這個1328個植物列表裡面,我們是沒有這個法源的依據來查那這一個部長你認為,譬如說部長你的司機你來當部長有司機嘛,你的司機如果你認為你的司機怪怪的,你想查 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7260.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7289.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
你會怎麼處理因為司機不是公務員不是公務員所以他只是一個僱員而已所以這會不會是破口所以這部分我們可以就要看立法看有沒有包括紀要人員及司機這邊要把他全部都列入那這個是可以考慮的可以考慮可以討論討論的可以討論那第二個調查局的報告裡頭有寫說因為有時候一開始你們先用現在是用植物嘛是 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7289.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7310.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那現在提到說可不可以用揭密的條件跟這個資訊的內容接觸到這些資訊的內容請問你們現在的想法就是對這些揭密的條件跟相關的資訊內容的那個定義會設定在哪裡就是說有摸到這些資訊 有看到這些資訊的人都應該被查核的那條線你們會畫在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7314.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7336.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那條線其實應該要看說他能夠接觸到什麼樣的機密的內容那像譬如說我舉個例子來講譬如說這個可能這個受查核的這個職務是必須要被查可是他周邊的這些機要人員會經手過公文的這些人並沒有受到這個特殊查核這個時候這個範圍就應該要南瓜 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7339.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7361.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
南瓜進來當然也不能無限上綱所以這個事情我覺得要加速加速也許是社會上的討論說一下合理的我舉個例子譬如說我們行政院在信義路有一個信義官社那信義官社總有裡面要清潔的人員整個環境維護的人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7366.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7379.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
假設這個部長就住在這個官社我沒有說法國部長 因為我不知道住哪裡假設某部長他可能也經常接觸這些所謂國安的資訊這個部長每天回來的時間清潔人員 人員門口他就每天記錄這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7389.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7395.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我就簡單舉這種例子 社會比較容易認知嘛這個人都幾點回去 怎麼有人寄 都一人付一支寄一支我們要拿去給誰這個在你們現在的思考裡頭 這個該不該被討論啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7403.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7431.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我覺得這個是可以討論啦 但是就是說這樣子的面向是不是太廣了所以我說這個你們要去討論的時候 社會討論嘛有人覺得這樣太閒 你們要說什麼 大家都要去查這不合理但是就是說 這一個一來一條線我覺得這個速度要快一點 好不好 加速這一個討論好 那這一個我只能講說這個相關的比如說境外敵對勢力可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7432.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7456.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
接觸的可能接觸的這一個人員國會助理是其中一種對吧 國會助理是其中一種那我們在立法院裡頭 進進出出的不是只有國會助理我們在立法院裡頭 進進出出的非常多人他只要換個證 他就進來了那有些是相關的職員 有些都不是公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7457.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7483.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
像這一條線 我舉例子比如說我們現在常收到立法院給我們的密件密件就是外面有個信封然後裡面有一個加密的信封然後裡面就有一個公文書可能是相關的會議紀錄 相關的文件現在問題來了這些都是拿到我們辦公室以後沒有叫我們簽收的東西放的人就走了 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7486.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7508.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
那這當然對立委來說 我們就把他打開來看看完之後啊 看完之後就關鍵了看完之後我可能就直接把他睡掉了因為他沒有叫我回收啦就給我之後他就走了嘛那我那一份啦 我看完之後我就把他睡掉了 這是一種第二種 我看完之後我就跟助理講說 拿去睡掉那我的助理就看到了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7512.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7535.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
第三種 我也沒有講 我就整包 都拿去睡覺 都拿去回收這文就出去了 國家對這件事情好像沒有很嚴格的規範我覺得 像我的助理就會看到喔我沒有自己睡 助理說助理你幫我拿去睡 助理只要喵一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7536.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7544.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
他就看到那個文件是什麼大概啦 可能是封面或者是第一頁什麼之類的這個國家該不該規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7546.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7565.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這個部分如果是立法院內的一般的公務人員的話是目前是可以透過那個行政院人總的這個特查辦法把他納進來但是如果是立法委員的助理的話因為他不是公務人員所以在這個部分的話應該是要由立法院的組織法來授權來訂定那個執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7568.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7595.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
來作為執行的依據來規範這些參與協助立法院立法委員來從事這些職務運行的這些相關的助理是不是要把他納入查核我請問一下假設我覺得我辦公室有一個助理怪怪的譬如說最近每次都請客吃飯最近買一台新車然後常常就說他要出國假設我覺得他怪怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7596.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7621.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
阿我可不可以說局長你幫我查一下他我可以做這個動作嗎委員可以可是我們不能做委員可以什麼意思委員你可以請我們你可以主動提出來請我們啦但是我們沒有法源的依據我們沒辦法配合委員所以我可以請你幫我查我辦公室的A助理B助理C助理但是我會回覆委員說我們沒有執法的依據沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7622.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7645.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
我可以提但是你們不會做那如果是假設部長要提然後希望你們查那他是個公務員然後部長提了請你們查當事人也知道他被查對不對如果是按照特查辦法的話當事人必須要簽署他同意我們才會進行查那你們的報告裡頭有提到財產 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7648.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7669.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我們公務員有這個財產財產不明我們公職人員要財產申報那有時候這些公務員他職等並沒有那麼高所以他也不用申報可是他可能每天跟在部長的旁邊每天跟在誰的旁邊那這些可能就是隨著部長進退他反正他也不是公務員那這些人的財產原則上是不用申報 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7671.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7693.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那你們做這個特殊查核的時候啊他的財產你們要查他的財產也要他同意對不對是是是那他如果不同意呢現在所有經過特殊查核的都是當事人被查核人同意的他如果不同意的話我們就會告訴他的用人機關他說這個人他不同意啊那要不要用的話就由用人機關來做決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7695.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7715.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
所以如果有用人機關的首長或用人機關他們也不提報你們調查局是不會去查的就對了不會 我們是被動用人機關來查我們才會查除非接到檢舉檢舉那又是另外一個狀況 那個可能就進入司法調查 不是特殊查 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7716.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7723.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
OK 好 我最後問一下部長最近在查很多所謂的死亡連署 偽造的連署法務部有沒有這個政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7731.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7755.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
引導 暗示 明示說只辦誰不辦誰部長有沒有下過這種命令這個是絕對沒有因為他這個都是民眾告發或中選會來告發的來偵辦的那這個有犯罪嫌疑當然講要原辦我們沒有什麼立場跟任何的一個考量純粹就是因為這是一個案件的一個就是有人去告發 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7756.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7781.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
有告發或者中選會 現在目前都是中選會來告或者民眾來告發來立案 來偵辦的這個沒有 不是 我們沒有任何的一個考量所以這個就是 我們就是採客觀公正 物完物中的一個辦案的一個態度齁這個沒有任何的政治考量偵辦的方式啊 手法啦 手法啦 這一些齁這個都是檢察官 負責的這個檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7783.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7804.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
他自己去決定去研判嘛這個是個案這邊我們也不會去介入干涉去指導嘛這個個案是完全是由偵查組也就是檢察官他們整個一個偵辦的一個阿你外部跟人家檢察官說喔你這樣用社會觀感不好啦不要這樣啦太粗魯啦還是怎麼樣你外部說這個有的沒的還是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7806.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7820.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
你就是檢察官你的手法你要怎麼偵辦那是你針對個案你掌握的訊息怎麼樣怎麼樣你去辦就完全是檢察官自己決定就對了這個是委員說的就是目前的一個偵辦的一個現況OK 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7824.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7853.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
謝謝王委員 那在這邊跟委員會還有王委員報告一下王委員請問我們詢問的事項就是過往到底國安會有沒有派員來我們這邊確實有查到 剛剛醫事人員有查到在第九屆第一會期第七次全體委員會議的時候當時的召委是段宜康召委確實也不是法律案或預算案國安會也有派員到場 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7857.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7858.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
當時的主題我看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7863.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7887.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
就國家資安體系及國家資通安全科技中心籌備情形進行專題報告並被質詢這是當時的那個記錄我再重申一次是立法院第九屆第一會期司法及法治委員會第七次全體委員會會議當時的召委是段宜康召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7888.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7902.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那就以上我剛說明的那個題目他們有進行專題報告跟被質詢當時的國安會確實有派員到場那我們今天的會議其實我們對國安會我們也沒有指定要哪一位來 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7904.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7918.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
他們當時是派諮詢委員到場我們今天也是沒有指定要任何人所以我們今天的國安會的簽到欄是空白的各位可以去看我們也是依循過往的做法去做以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7920.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7947.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
請假就對了對我在這邊跟那個王委員報告一下確實完全沒有來請假那國安會這一次是沒有那剛剛在各位委員還沒有到場的時候那我們有請議事人員有詢問國安會那國安會也是表示說他們依據憲政的制度他們不願意到場剛剛議事人員跟我回報如此以上是就剛王一川委員的詢問加以說明好那我們接下來就請 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7948.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7967.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
我們先做一個會議程序的宣告第一個就是我們待會在吳思瑤委員詢答完畢之後我們休息五分鐘這是第一件事第二件事就是現在有委員提出臨時提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7967.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7978.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那依據本會的網歷時間是在11點左右處理但是時間有點太近了所以我預告那個宣告的時間呢我們是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7979.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8000.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
我們先宣告處理時間是在本日的11點40分處理委員所提出來的臨時提案那屆時如果有委員正在詢答我們就是在該委員詢答完畢之後就馬上進行處理那以上好那接下來我們請王宏威委員進行詢答謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8014.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8034.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
好 先就那個剛才主席所公布的事項感謝主席還有我們議事人員把之前就是有關國安會或國安會秘書長有沒有到立法院來備詢把它查得非常清楚已經讓我們的司法法制的委員應該充分的理解到 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8034.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8050.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
所以依照今天的狀況那麼即使沒有派人來但是完全沒有請假的動作這是完全的去漠視事實上也極為不尊重我們立法院以及司法法制委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8052.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8057.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那我覺得確實應該予以譴責也希望即便是身為執政黨的委員因為過去確實有案例這麼長的時間也都是民進黨在執政過去的民進黨政府為什麼它可以有對立法院對於委員會有一個基本的尊重但是為什麼現在連基本的尊重都沒有連起價都沒有我覺得這個部分確實應該去予以譴責 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8080.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8085.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
王委員報告一下在顧立雄擔任秘書長的時候他都會請假所以我們想說我們會再跟國安會訪問一下所以請問一下顧立雄可以為什麼吳釗燮不可以吳釗燮比顧立雄更大嗎還是他心虛心虛這樣子不敢來也不做請假謝謝我們主席的說明主席我先請我們的法務部長跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8109.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8111.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我們的調查局局長好 部長 局長在上週 其實震驚全社會就是有關於因為要偵查這個罷免包含一個當事人在現場 吳思瑤委員跟吳佩奕委員而因此來搜索國民黨的台北市黨部 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8137.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8149.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那這部分剛才部長說是依法來做但是我想請教部長跟局長在我們的辦案的過程這些過程裡面有沒有司法濫權的問題有沒有打擊政敵的問題來 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8153.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8179.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
因為我們的這個台北市黨部是在台北市的長春路中山區那正好是在本人的選區那結果在整個的搜索的過程裡面那麼因為雖然台北市黨部在這個長春路同一棟大樓裡面也有我們的中山大同區黨部在那邊辦公而且他是分開辦公非常明確的分開辦公 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8181.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8204.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
結果在當天搜索的時候 竟然我們中山跟大同區黨部的負責人我們叫做執行長 他一樣被搜索不但被搜索整個的辦公室 而且還要求交出手機然後調查人員直接在那邊滑他的手機 滑了三四個小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8206.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8233.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我想請問如果今天罷免吳思瑤是士林北投區罷免吳佩義是中正萬華區請問一下跟中山大同黨部何干為什麼可以去搜索中山大同黨部的辦公室為什麼可以要求他交出手機在那邊滑了三四個小時然後再把這個手機交回給我們的這個黨部的區黨部的執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8237.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8249.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
請問一下有何關係而且這個關係是什麼呢本人正好是中山區啊然後我也是被罷免的對象所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8250.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8270.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我們整個中山區認為假所謂的搜索台北市黨部之名把根本不相關的中山區跟大同區黨部通通拿來搜索一番而且更過分的是最後還把中山區跟大同區黨部的黨員名冊帶走拿中山區大同區的黨員名冊幹什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8275.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8296.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
中山區大同區的國民黨黨員可以罷免吳思瑤嗎可以罷免吳佩奕嗎請問一下為什麼可以帶走完全不相干的資料部長 局長這個是合理的程序嗎這個是有在依法行政嗎 依法搜索嗎有嗎跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8302.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8327.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
搜索一定是令狀主義就一定要法官核票的核准搜索票的這些的處所跟對象嗎對那所以這部分這個法官所以如果是中山區大同區他跟這兩個這兩個區域這運營共四個行政區嘛完全沒有關係為什麼他的手機可以被搜索有沒有關係是個案的判斷認定那這部分因為我可以這樣認定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8328.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8333.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
可以這樣認定嗎你去搜索到所有各縣市你通通可以搜索嗎那是法院核票的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8339.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8364.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這不是說我們剪掉要去哪裡說就哪裡說他到那邊說明知那個是中山大同區黨舖明知他的業務跟那個沒有相關可以拿出手機來嗎我想請問一下部長局長今天你只要憑我正好在那邊我正好在那邊辦公可是我跟這些業務完全沒有關係你可以要求我交出手機嗎你可以隨便來看我手機的內容嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8367.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8371.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
直接說我們這個黨部區黨部主委他只有浮選我的資料他只有浮選我的資料請問一下跟罷免吳四堯跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你們這不是在打擊政敵嗎這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8382.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8407.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
依法來處理的 還叫依法處理可以依法到這種地步 依法來打激戰敵嗎而且跟委員報告 我對各案的說索票 等於說索票他可以要求現場的人把他交出手機 讓他看手機的內容嗎可不可以 可不可以 來告訴我這個是要各案來認定嘛 那個就是要法院的一個說索法院說索票沒有包含中山區黨部 沒有包含大同區黨部啊可以嗎 那是一個同意處所 它是以處所嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8413.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8438.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
可是他不同辦公嘛你知道現在有很多大家共享辦公室多的咧你知道在民間有多少共享辦公室可能ABCDE的公司都共享一個辦公室你搜索那個辦公室你要辦A公司你可以要B公司C公司的人員把他資料交出來把他手機交出來可不可以可不可以這個搜索票一搜索要搜仔搜索要怎麼進來搜索票那這有沒有濫權問題有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8440.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8467.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
既然是法官的核准搜索票 可以搜索的處所所以這次部長告訴我今天你要辦士林北投區的罷免案辦中正萬華區的罷免案但是你可以搜索完全無關的中山區跟大同區的黨部可以要求這個黨部負責人交出手機可以直接帶走中山區跟大同區黨部的名冊 可以是不是你告訴我是不是可以 按照你這樣講可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8468.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8476.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這個是個案我不表示意見 那我想 我相信檢察官就是依法來執行搜索嘛有在依法嗎 好 再來看好 再來看 我跟你講 你們這一陣子無法無天來 在高雄 高雄穿著黑衣便服的檢調人員到了豐山工協市場去連署站 要求把現場工作人員帶走 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8491.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8511.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
然後要求 就說 你有沒有搜索票呢沒有拿搜索票 就要把人帶走沒有拿搜索票 就要把人帶走請問一下 這個是合法的 執法的程序嗎沒有拿搜索票 去連署站 要求把人帶走 可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8514.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8532.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
這個部分是我想委員提到的是媒體的報導那現場的狀況我想那個當天那個甲官也有聲明那事實的狀況是他去找他這個受搜索人已經聯絡他的太太他說他太太在那個連署站所以我們的同仁到那個連署站去找他太太 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8532.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8560.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
有搜索票嗎重點他拿了搜索票嗎有搜索票已經這個受搜索人同意到他家去搜索但是鑰匙在他太太身上他太太當時所以他就可以把他太太帶走沒有他太太是被搜索的人嗎受搜索人說去找他太太拿鑰匙回來開門這是受搜索人同意的所以我們的同仁只是到那個受搜索人可以同意他太太可以把他太太帶走嗎我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我告訴你我還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8562.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8570.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
還有人跟我反應就是因為他們在現場本來他要去連署那既然呢 跟他人員跟他講說你下午再來下午再來有這樣子嗎 跑到人家的連鎖站到那邊去要求帶人走然後要去連署的人說你下午再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8583.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8597.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
這不叫司法干預 什麼叫做司法干預再來 我們在網路上也流傳影片然後這個霸雙節的 在高雄霸來來把這個影片放一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8599.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8622.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
政治干預司法司法干預罷免我徐尚賢高雄雙霸節錯在哪裡綠色恐怖是不要臉好 你看這影片其實這影片還沒有包括他被拖進去之後直接壓在地上壓制的這樣的一個動作我想請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8626.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8641.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
來罷免民進黨立委到底犯了什麼錯要在現場要靠手銬直接靠手銬 你看把人拿著他的腰帶然後抓進去之後直接被壓制在地上摩擦 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8643.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8662.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我們說現在是怎麼樣司法已經可以惡劣到這種地步嗎請問一下請問一下他犯了什麼罪來部長說他犯了什麼罪然後手銬然後進去直接被壓制在地上這個就刑法那個偽造文書罪還有個資法對啊偽造文書罪個資法偽造文書罪是不是重罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8670.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8680.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
五年以下嘛對五年以下而且一罪一罰嘛那一罪一罰啦那就一罪一罰好你就要用一罪一罰所以你又在嚇唬人你要一罪一罰我待會給你看我待會給你看既然部長想成這樣嘴臉還這樣來來來我們再來看一罪一罰太好了來 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8691.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8714.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
中選會告發罷免林沛翔有116件的連署是偽造案是涉嫌偽造案好 你們也有辦因為大家現在都說怎麼辦完不辦綠呢好 你要辦綠啊可是很奇怪喔你辦綠不是說去辦他的這個罷團他也不是去辦領銜人也不是去辦幹部直接一大早6點辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8717.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8733.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
按鈴 按門鈴叮叮叮叮叮叫人家開門就是連署人請問一下以前有這樣辦法嗎以前有這樣直接去找連署人6點半猛按門鈴去問連署人你有沒有參與罷免有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8737.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8741.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
這個是一個個案執行的一個 又來個案了齁 對啊 又來個案 每個都是個案了 這個合法的嘛 這個合法的嘛 部長 這個是 這個是 頭髮你以前怎麼不辦啊頭髮你以前有辦嗎 你還好意思在這邊 你好意思在這邊講怎麼不辦 來 再來看再來看 我跟你講啊 你們哪選擇性辦的案 在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8760.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8761.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
韓國瑜罷免案有沒有死亡連署有沒有偽造連署這個檢察官就已經釐清了 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8780.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8782.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
有沒有啊問你有沒有啊這個有連署人後來發生死亡的一個情形有嘛好請問你辦了沒有辦了對不對有辦了不起訴嘛我請問你一下有沒有約談 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8798.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8804.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
有沒有搜索 有沒有生壓 有沒有嘛通通是按照委託文書辦嘛還有個資嘛 涉及違反個資法辦嘛每個案件的情形都不一樣不一樣 當然不一樣 報名韓國瑜不用搜索 不用約談 不用生壓 不一樣啊請問一下1300多個人 哪一個被搜索哪一個被按門鈴 哪一個被生壓來 你告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8826.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8853.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
這個個案齁 我不清楚那個個案的你又不清楚了 沒有辦嘛 而且我直接告訴你當時的高檢署的檢察長被爆料其實當時的檢察官是要辦的 而且要起訴後來呢 這個檢察長不願意辦 而且甚至中間還去換檢察官換了另外一個檢察官之後 才不起訴這也是個案喔 按照部長的說法也是個案喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8854.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8860.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
不會辦 不能辦 不敢辦好 你以為只有這一個嗎 再來再來怎麼會不同呢 一樣是有偽造連署啊有什麼不同 部長 你在這邊凹吧 說謊吧哪有什麼不同 他是不是用偽造文書來辦 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8877.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8888.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這是兩個不同的案件有怎麼樣 當然一個罷免韓國瑜一個罷免吳思堯啊 不一樣啊 真不一樣啊韓國瑜就不要約談不能辦啊罷免吳思堯啊 給他辦到死啊好 再來連署 除了罷免之外總統 副總統選舉 如果你是無黨籍你是無黨籍 也需要連署好 5271名死人 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8906.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8917.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
連署 這個呢 這個告發其實是中選會告發的中選會在之後告發5271個 你說什麼韓國瑜之前啊那麼請問一下 5271名的偽造連署有辦嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8929.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8954.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
2023年選舉有辦嗎這個檢控部就真辦了嗎就釐清嘛全部簽結好問你啊有沒有叮叮叮6點半按鈴去詢問有沒有我們每個個案的執行方式都不一樣嘛好來我再問你有沒有約談這個每個案件有約談又不一樣喔不一樣不一樣對對個案都不一樣好再問你有沒有搜索有沒有帶走名冊有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8959.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8965.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
我這邊辦公室要帶走我中山區的黨員名冊我請問你有沒有帶走名冊 有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8966.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8972.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
每個個案又是不一樣 為什麼呢因為半韓國瑜不一樣 半郭台銘也不一樣啊因為當時民進黨希望郭台銘參與選舉啊郭台銘參與選舉才對賴清德的選舉有利啊因為他才會分國民黨的票啊所以最後全部簽結 雖然當時中選會確實是有去告發 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8990.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9008.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
但是呢 沒有 第一個 沒有登門去按門鈴 沒有去約談 沒有去搜索 沒有去生壓這就是部長口中所謂的個案所以妳的最後的結論是什麼 我告訴大家 那個就叫做選擇性辦案 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9010.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9026.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那個就叫做雙標辦案那個就叫做辦藍不辦綠辦案這就叫做依照上意來辦案不叫做個案啊這個沒有這回事啦怎麼沒有這回事 這證據嘛這個證據就是證據來辦案啊那部長你為什麼 你說我當時沒有當部長當時的部長真是莫名其妙五千多個人耶為什麼你一個都沒有約談 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9034.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9055.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
蛤 你也不敢批評啊 對不對 OK啊那個個案呢 所以我直接說你們現在 所以部長你還好一直在這邊大言不慚依照個案來辦案 為什麼同樣的個案我問你 大家是不是都用偽造文書跟涉嫌違反個資法在辦 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9057.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9082.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
他如果有涉嫌的就是這兩個罪名嘛對嘛那要證明這兩個罪名的話一定要有證據嘛那一定要去有犯罪所以罷韓國瑜沒有證據罷郭台銘沒有證據對不對罷免其他人都沒有證據但是呢只要罷免民進黨立委都有證據你是這個意思吧我是尊重檢察的偵辦因為我不會過問你尊重我直接講好我最後一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9084.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9110.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
現在直接都說是由邢太昭下令來偵辦是不是邢太昭下令要偵辦邢總長下令偵辦這個我不清楚因為我不會去過問邢總長是如何的去處理因為他是檢查議題的檢察總長嘛那個個案的這部分我完全是尊重檢方檢察機關他們的對個案的一個處理那我只是一個正部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9111.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9126.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
局長都要為歷史留下記錄這些比如說你看辦郭台銘也好辦那個韓國瑜也好都會留下記錄未來你們也都會留下記錄我剛講了這麼多的案例你們還好意思跟我講依法偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9128.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9150.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
這不叫做 這個 我真的想請問 民進黨是不是要雙標如果今天你辦一個選區的選舉罷免然後可以去搜索另外一個選區人家黨部負責人的手機去滑人家的手機 他最後是還給他因為他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9151.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9162.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
他直接可以去要求人家解碼看人家手機那你們憑什麼把另外一個選區根本不搭搭選區的黨員名冊帶走呢帶走幹嘛 對付我王宏威嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9164.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9182.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
對不對 我請問一下在整個的罷免案裡面你如果說今天罷王宏威團體你帶走中山區的黨部的這個黨員名冊還有道理在罷免士林北投 在罷免忠聖頑華請問一下跟中山區跟大同區到底有什麼關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9184.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9207.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
你們地檢署憑什麼帶走人家的黨員名冊來 局長你告訴我為什麼 憑什麼我想我們在執行當然都是依照法官所開出來的令狀那在那個同一個處所裡面其實我們也很難去區分那你把人家情書也帶走好了你把人家家書也帶走好了只要你覺得可以帶走就帶走啊那我請問黨員名冊不是那個選區的黨員名冊為什麼你們可以帶走 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9214.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9220.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
因為這個牽涉到具體的個案我想我不對個案的內容又來了 又是個案這種個案沒有問題嗎你們繼續濫權好了我剛講到這樣一個具體的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9227.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9235.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
你們這樣檢察官可以如此的濫權對不對怎麼沒有濫權呢這怎麼樣依法偵辦 依什麼法 依什麼法我請問一下我中山區黨部的這些負責人他跟這個罷免案 辦罷免無死案無配有什麼關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9247.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9253.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
什麼叫依法偵辦來 部長你敢這樣講我請問一下中山區的黨員 中山區的幹部跟罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你告訴我大同區的跟這兩個區有什麼關係你告訴我這個法官依照法官的合法的說法什麼叫依照法官你們難道現場不會判斷嗎現場不會判斷我告訴你現在真的很多公用辦公室按照你這種說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9275.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9293.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
以後大家非常恐怖啊公用辦公室你旁邊的跟你公用辦公室的人出事我通告被搜索啊可以這樣嗎我問你可不可以又來個案了齁你拗不過就用個案啊我跟你講這就叫做司法濫權這就叫做斬豎陣敵不折不扣我請你們適可而止啊你不要以為人民不會憤怒啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9305.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9311.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
在這邊講什麼此言各案你們的個案就是你們的個案去整肅人家嘛不是這樣子嗎好 謝謝那我們下一位請沈博洋委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9335.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9341.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
謝謝主席 那有請這個有請部長還有那個大局局長麻煩部長 局長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9349.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9376.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
好 部長好 局長好那這個我這個會期還沒有過來這邊我不知道這邊可以問那麼多個案我覺得是說這個不太妥當但是我還是要釐清一下就是說因為我是要問忠誠義務的事情剛剛我在下面聽實在是有點受不了那第一個就是說剛剛有提到這一個韓國瑜那時候有1300多件我還是要講一下這1300多件是不合格數他死亡是 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9377.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9390.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
死亡是95 95佔0.3%那像這一次以張宏祿委員為例他的死亡率是7%那剛剛有提到郭台銘因為郭台銘的那一個分數是100多萬份所以他的那個佔的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9392.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9410.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我看一下我剛才按了一下計算機百分之0.005啦所以就是說死亡連署這件事情其實它有一個誤差範圍在誤差範圍之下通常來講就是要看到底是不是有偽造的情勢那像基隆這一件也是一樣我看他們在問的時候他們就是想說這些交出來的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9411.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9431.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
明明他可能就已經死他不一定是死亡他可能跟死亡無關但有沒有偽造的情形是他個別看但今天在這一個國民黨所發起的罷免運動裡面其實很明顯的可以發現那是跟名冊有關因為他們自己就有說他們抄名冊嘛所以他跟個別有人交出來有可能偽造跟你抄名冊這是兩件完全不同的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9432.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9458.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
把這個都全部混在一起講然後這都是個案我是覺得在國會的殿堂這樣說真的不是很妥當啦所以這個這也只能請部長就是說針對個案的部分可能不能夠回答的太多啦剛剛聽起來應該都是有警守這個分際但是說真的我是不希望就是我只是要來問別的事情但是看到這樣的一個局面那但是接下來我想問一下就是這一個忠誠考核的這件事情就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9460.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9478.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
這個終審考核我認為有幾個階段第一個就是他到底是要對誰然後再來就是他什麼時候要查還要查什麼內容大概就這三個那這個查的對象我那時候在看你們今天的報告裡面有特別提到就是說因為立院也有公職人員那立院的公職人員是可以查的這個沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9479.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9504.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
對不對 他包含在這個裡面嘛但是就是說如果我們只要把這個範圍稍微擴大一下因為現在的範圍有點窄但是畢竟他是公職人員如果請調查局查可能還合理但如果一旦進入到譬如說助理的部分可能就會打一個問號所以我在這邊想問一下就是第一個就是說目前機要的部分是有包含在這一個那個辦法嗎就是有一個涉及什麼XXX那個辦法裡面機要有包含在裡面嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9506.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9529.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
現在的一千三百多人有沒有機要報告委員目前有部分的部會他的機要人員是有在這個查核表裡面對但是剛剛委員提到立法院的公職人員目前立法院是沒有提列對沒有在裡面的對對對所以這個範圍當然這個設成就第一個機要是不是應該更大範圍的第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9530.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9559.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
第二個就是說立法院如果他是公職人員我覺得是有機會因為他是公職人員這有機會然後第三個就是說呢這一個可能接觸的人員剛剛逸川有提到那個比如說保全啊清潔啊因為在美國他就分這三大類第一大類就是那種高度風險的就是跟國家機密有關的那第二大類就是一些委外廠商因為有時候委外廠商也會接觸到嘛所以他也要做security check這個careerance然後第三種就是他其實不應該接觸到但是可能接觸到比如說保全 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9560.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9585.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
清潔他們是把這三類都納入那因為這個是畢竟是辦法我是在想說我們有沒有可能修一個稍微先動一下母法但是這個辦法再做一個相對的修正那這個可能到之後我們再來做這個討論因為這個範圍我覺得會有一個不夠大的問題但是範圍雖然有不夠大但是範圍有時候一旦遇到利潤有可能會遇到一些障礙就像剛剛提到像助理這個部分因為如果助理的查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9586.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9603.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
是交給調查局來吵和他們一定會講說那我如果說我這是目前我是反對黨你怎麼可以來吵我助理等等之類可能又會有這樣的一個聲音所以這個到底該怎麼做我是有點擔心因為如果留給立法院做聽起來是合理但是問題是立法院剛剛內部自己做的話立法院沒有那個專長 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9604.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9623.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
所以到最後是要怎麼去做這個協助我覺得可能變得很重要你說立法院我們不管是院長或者其他層級的人叫他去做這種Security Check我覺得是做不到的啦所以我覺得這個要考慮一下我覺得這可以思考一下那第二個查核時機啦這個剛剛其實已經有提過就是說時間點就是說就任以前轉職什麼等等之類那時候要查一次嘛對不對那 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9624.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9644.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
再來就是說中間有可能五年有可能八年要再查一次然後再來還有離職以後就離職以後相關的規範我們目前好像針對比如說像一些退休的居人什麼等等之類的有做但顯然那個範圍又跟前面的有點不一樣所以那個範圍要怎麼去一致化就是前 中 後我覺得這很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9644.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9658.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那最後就是一個查核內容因為我現在看目前那個辦法裡面內容就是有沒有附中啦有沒有這個家人有沒有在中國做什麼特定的事情啦但是我看美國的查核項目其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9660.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9686.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
蠻多的我們有可能要全面的盤點一下因為像剛剛有些委員提到一些財產的狀況啦我覺得這可能就是一個就是說他們那種中層柴核項目甚至有時候可以高達千項那我們可能可以把人員分成高中低三種不同的風險來做盤點那所以我覺得之後我覺得可能要盡速來討論就是我們在這邊如法我們要怎麼做然後那邊辦法可以做什麼樣的修改我覺得這幾個層次可能這可能蠻快需要是需要比較快速的盤點因為這個東西其實說起來是有點複雜啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9689.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9717.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
所以可能要請就法務部還要請調查局針對這件事情來多幫忙好 謝謝委員那最後就是我還是不太想講到那個事情不過這個因為我們這個吳委員他也是召委就是說搜索的部分也有同意搜索等等之類或是各樣的方式所以可能我知道剛剛可能沒有什麼太多時間回答但是就是雖然個案不能回答但是在通案的部分比如說目前我們搜索的這個太陽可能有哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9718.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9744.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
然後當然說當然並沒有剛剛其實是每一個個案的不同他發動的方式不同嗎有些可能是交件的人有時候可能是連署了有可能是提供名冊的人各式各樣不一樣那可能要稍微釐清一下但是還是希望我們不要再針對這種偵查中的個案在這個國會的殿堂上面這個我說真的我今天早上因為我聽因為我想知道別人問忠誠考核義務的狀況我從早上聽到現在還是聽了不少個案那再請法務部和大局要多多注意好 謝謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9746.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9769.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
好 謝謝沈委員 那下一位我們請吳思堯委員發言那吳思堯委員發言完畢之後 我們就休息五分鐘謝謝召委 有請部長麻煩部長等一下國防部的代表要一起 就是那個王處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9773.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9801.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
也是非常遺憾 司法法治委員會這個會期以來不斷地不斷地就個案然後來對官員為難大家就來講制度 就來論法一再地去講個案而且甚至是當事人也要有起碼的利益迴避針對剛剛王宏威委員所垂詢的事項我想很簡要的還是需要做幾個歸納第一個 民主不容造假 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9802.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9816.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
對不對民主絕對不容造假不管是過去國民黨執政時期的投票的作票它會影響選舉的公正或者是現在已經越來越少但還是會發生的會選 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9818.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9844.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
只要會選就會有刑責可能他當選也無效所以在罷免這件事情上一旦在連署涉及造假他也應當有同樣的民主不容造假的那個法律的效力還有政治的效力這是第一件事所以說民主不容造假不管是藍的綠的不分對象都應當查辦如果有違法事證 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9845.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9854.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
所以說呢現在中選會依職務告發部長你知道有幾件嗎根委員報41件41件嗎這41件是全部都是罷籃的嗎就是各黨派都有不是所以說中選會依職務告發的41件有藍有綠有違法事證就要辦因為民主不容造假這第一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9870.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9896.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
第二件事情現在來偵辦的這些事件裡頭呢其實法是誰修的上個會期國民黨翁小林委員所提案的選罷法98-2條所以法是國民黨修的第二個證據是誰提供的我以台北市來講台北市所提供的這些證據是台北市的地方選委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9898.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9909.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
提供的地方選委會的主委是身兼台北市政府的秘書長也是蔣萬安親自任命的李泰鑫主委他親自在議會的備詢就說了 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9912.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9934.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
所有在台北市的死人連署幽靈連署造假連署都是誰查對誰提報的呢都是戶政事務所以及台北市的選委會所以現在檢調所偵辦的證據是誰提供的就台北市而言就是台北市政府所提供的嘛對不對這第二件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9935.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9962.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
法是誰修的國民黨修的證據是誰提供的到目前為止是地方選委會所查對提報的我這樣理解正確吧第三個犯罪就是犯罪違法就是違法不論是誰該辦就辦司法偵辦的核心是證據而不是政治我已經N次說明了所以說剛剛的證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9964.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9984.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
提供給檢調的是台北市長蔣萬安主管的選委會提供的我不曉得為什麼有委員一直在這裡為難官員而且就個案好 我是當事人我在台下聽到真的是我實在很不想講我的案子吳思瑤的死亡連署86位佔4.09% |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9988.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10011.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
韓國瑜當初的死亡連署佔百分之零點三郭台銘那時候的死亡連署甚至連百分之零點零一都不到武四堯這一區的死亡幽靈連署高達八十六件佔百分之四點零九錯假連署整個錯誤率高達百分之三十四點五如果這是台北市選委會提供的喔所以如果是檢察官辦案 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10012.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10040.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
他就循證據去辦嘛我要把事情講清楚我不容有些人在這裡混淆然後來鬥臭司法來施壓司法我真的覺得比遺憾更遺憾好 接下來今天的主題喔保密防諜人人有責防範共諜呢就請國會一起來支持國安法案喔夏妍我年紀小的時候我是沒有什麼機會看童話故事 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10041.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10049.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我年紀小的時候我是翻著爸爸帶回家的黨外雜誌在看的所以對於過去很多戒嚴時期的軍閥大嬸 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10052.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10073.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
1980年的美麗島事件的軍閥大審這在那個年代讓很多長一輩的台灣人對於軍審這件事情它存有一個時代遺留的標籤就是過去國民黨執政的戒嚴時期軍審會拿來打壓迫害政治犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10073.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10092.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
美麗島的軍閥大審就是我們這一代人印象深刻的事情所以要撕掉這個標籤新的要推動的軍事審查制度不能再犯嘛未來在對象上不可能再發生破壞政治犯的狀況嘛還是國防部要來講因為對象不一樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10096.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10124.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
委員好 針對剛剛委員提的這個部分其實這次的修正第一個就是我們對象部分一定是現任軍人所以不會對平民也不會對政治犯現在也沒有這所謂的政治犯的辦案的狀況您先回答這個部分 下一頁我們要撕掉軍事審判在台灣人民心中另外一個標籤就是洪仲秋事件當初他沒有公開透明的審判機制還有軍中的階級 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10125.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10137.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
被霸凌所以軍中人權那個時候大家站出來以致於我們的軍事審判制度做了革新未來如果恢復的軍事審判制度會不會再發生同樣的洪仲秋的事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10138.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10162.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
報告委員這個案件其實給我們的啟示也是非常大所以我們這次的修正部分當然會針對當時的審判制度是不是有要修正的部分一定會來檢討的是所以不會再有下一個這樣的事件我們在新的軍事審判制度這個制度重新改革研議的時候一定要提醒彼此也要告訴社會再下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10163.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10186.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
現在早期的戒嚴時期 軍審會拿來對抗對付政治犯然後在過去洪仲秋那個時代可能會拿來對於一般軍中的一般案件現在我們如果要恢復軍事審判是因應新生 也不是新生事物啦而是說越來越嚴重的共諜滲透的事件嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10187.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10200.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
這是現在我們重啟這個制度的一個很重要的現在我們要因應的危機所以說以這幾年來我看到共諜案的起訴人數是成長了400%從2024年已經到64位2021年只有16位 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10208.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10220.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
而我們一再的大家非常的訝異對於軍人佔共諜的比例不管退役或現役居然加總是佔66%也因為這樣子的與日俱增的共諜威脅在軍中 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10228.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10255.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
所以我們要嚴議啟動恢復軍事審判這是因應新的狀況我認為社會也會支持下一頁所以未來軍事審判重開機的話因為對象跟範圍都明確的界定所以不會針對一般平民他針對的是現役軍人而且是現役軍人當中犯陸海空軍刑法第二邊當中的重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10257.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10271.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
所以說未來的制度配套非常重要它限縮了對象跟範圍是限於軍人職務上的犯罪為主如違反效忠國家職責罪章等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10272.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10280.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
然後未來我們要啟動配套的修法包括軍事法院組織法軍事檢察署的組織法也要來制定軍法官的人事條例要強化從事偵審的軍法官必須具備一定程度的軍事歷練然後呢在符合公平審判的原則正當法律程序的原則之下呢也要來採行全面強制的辯護廢除階級管轄等等也就是新 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10301.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10315.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
的恢復的軍事審判跟過去的軍事審判完全不一樣是不是是沒錯這個剛委員所提示的這些都是我們目前在修法的一個方向跟這個範圍那現在演繹到哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10318.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10337.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
目前我們針對細部條文都有在做調整那剛才也跟司法院副局長也講了我們這禮拜會跟司法院做一個交流跟協調所以預計如果跟司法院會嫌然後後續可能送到立法院審議的啟程會是落在 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10338.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10347.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
目前的規劃我們是在下半年會希望所以下會期渴望我們下半年會提到行政院去看行政院什麼時候再送過來所以我們有充分的時間我想未來在委員會各類的公聽會各類的制度的討論是必要的我們要私下過去均審在台灣人民心中那個負面的觀感負面的標籤這是我們努力的方向下演 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10365.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10386.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
但是共諜是無孔不入無所不在的宗教學術藝人網紅黑道乃至於民意代表這是過去我們所彙種的各個面向而法務部今天的報告書裡頭部長你們特別提到科技掏空利用這個危害經濟安全的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10387.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10414.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
危害产业竞争力的这种并购啦或者是挖角啦或者是来窃取商业机密等等的产业的危机还有借选的渗透是第二类第三类当然就是军中相关的发展组织特别是用利诱或色诱的方式来拍摄投降的影音来瓦解我方国军的士气来破坏军纪无所不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10417.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10431.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
所以說呢防範共諜軍事審判只是其中一部分他是針對現役軍人他出賣國家違背職務 下一頁但是在社會面是很重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10432.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10450.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
禮拜六凱道超過五萬人站出來拒絕統戰人民的怒吼響徹雲霄另外一個事情呢是2024年啊公民監督聯盟對於立法院的年度代表字是什麼部長知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10452.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10478.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
就是共匪的匪啊小心共匪有沒有在立法院呢居然2024年立法院的年度代表字被公民監督聯盟長期來監督觀察立法院的問政品質的居然匪這個字被貼上了立法院我覺得這個也是立法院要思緒的負面標籤所以怎麼做呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10480.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10508.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
民進黨推的國安實法如果立法院要撕掉那個匪的負面標籤請在野黨的委員一起來支持國安法案目前民進黨提出來的有實法喔我這邊就不贅述其實當中跟法務部跟國防部很多都相關譬如說反滲透法啦國家安全法等等可是目前為止光 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10509.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10537.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
立委附中登載報備就已經被擋了332次如果立法院要撕掉匪共匪就在立法院嗎這個標籤的話請藍白的委員不要再擋國安實法因為如果國安實法繼續擋我們想方設法想要針對軍事審判的制度提了好多配套的修法一樣擋住不好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10538.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10549.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
對不對這是我們共同面對的困境跟僵局在下一頁不只如此啊藍白的委員不只反國安法案還推親中法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10551.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10580.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
兩岸人民關係條例國家安全戰略法不再急投票離島建設條例不只洗人口還要洗產地然後還要把國家安全戰略的總統職權要擴大到立法院來決議定之立法院可以監督甚至反滲透法的修正案還要限縮將刑事責任改為行政罰還天啊我們的立法院在扯後腿我們的立法院在鬥退擼尾 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10581.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10605.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
這只是現在在野黨的委員推出來的親中法案的冰山一角我真的很擔心今天召委排了我們未來想要恢復軍事審判有效的針對百分之六十六的軍人被滲透的這個對象來加強他的刑責加強他的防範透過一個更透明更公開的軍事審判制度可是你在立法院賣鬼啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10609.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10622.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
要怎麼辦下一頁剛剛的問題我知道你們很難回答因為連我是執政黨的黨團幹部我都很難回答我每天還在奮戰我最後要提醒喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10624.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10649.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
回到也是相關的主題中國的借選也是破壞台灣民主制度非常嚴重的一種破壞民主的行為法務部你們過去的專案報告提出幾大樣類境外資金的借選網路選舉的賭盤或是透過散佈假訊息的認知作戰我提醒你們有借選就有借罷 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10651.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10673.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
有介入選舉就會有介入罷免的未來的投票或是現在二階的連署都有可能就以現在發動罷免的幾個領銜人就以我自己的這一區罷免吳思耀的領銜人有非常明確的紅統背景 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10674.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10701.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
而罷免許智傑委員的領銜人他甚至也要查查他還有沒有具備中國籍我不知道這個要查所以說過去在選舉的時候都有選舉的專案嘛對不對那部長法務部針對有可能的會不會發生的境外勢力比照過去借選的方法現在來借罷 介入罷免的民主 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10703.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10706.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
的這個手段你們會不會也啟動像選舉時期一樣的這種專案來強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10711.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10739.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
目前這個我們再來嚴厲我們請那個最高檢來嚴厲我要提醒你們因為同樣的都是境外敵對勢力透過各種方式不管認知作戰網路賭盤或是境外資金的介入來介入現在當然是在二階連署如果有未造的那就讓檢調去辦案但是這當中未來如果進入投票其實都很可能發生這個就會選舉叉叉 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10740.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10767.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
是 所以你們要有選舉查查的專案比較民主的選舉我們的罷免也是民主制度的一環我們超前部署不分對象秉公處置因為我們捍衛的都是台灣中華民國的民主我在這裡提醒您好嗎提醒法務部那國防部的同仁我們繼續不曉得怎麼辦軍事審判制度如果就藍白在這裡任何國安法案都擋 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10768.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10780.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
我實在對於未來軍事審判制度要上路能不能夠有效來防範軍人的被滲透我都相對悲觀但我們不會放棄努力好嗎 謝謝處長 謝謝部長好 謝謝 我們現在休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11188.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11197.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我們接下來繼續開會翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員下一位我們請鄭天才委員進行詢問鄭天才委員詢問完畢之後我們就處理臨時提案 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11212.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11235.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
主席 各位委員 有請法務部部長麻煩部長還有調查局局長部長好 局長好我們看最近的共諜案 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11237.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11261.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
這個我們總統辦公室的之一吳尚儀這個涉及共諜案然後這個吳釗燮他的前助理也就在外交部國安會他的助理之一的這個身份的很高都是紀澳人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11262.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11290.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
姿意久之等身份很高也是涉及到共諜案當然除了這個之外還有其他的譬如說這個民進黨民主協議前副主任邱思源還有這個新北市議員李怡典當然還有我們其他的立委的曾經當過助理的都涉及到共諜案 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11292.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11318.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那這些共諜案我們就看這個無論是外交部或是國安會或是總統府這麼嚴重的案子沒有去搜索沒有去搜索也沒有去搜索民進黨的辦公室沒有去搜索但是對我們看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11321.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11345.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
花蓮縣政府民政處的處長明良珍搜索花蓮縣政府而且還羈押這個明良珍處長花蓮地方法院三點裁定的理由檢察官的資料裡面顯示 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11347.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11369.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
責任明良真違反個人資料保護法第44條41條之公務員假借植物上的機會非法利用個人資料罪嫌疑重大請問一下部長過去涉及個人資料保護法違反個資法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11371.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11392.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
有哪些去搜索然後羈押的可以提出相關的案例嗎我這邊沒有我手上沒有這部分的一個資料那我想但是以這個這個個案來講這是檢察官有跟法院申請搜索法官有核准那個我知道這個這個就是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11397.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11418.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
辦欄不辦例,何況是共諜案,這麼嚴重啊這個個人資料保護法有嚴重到要收手然後還要羈押還要羈押寫得很明確啊,個人資料保護法好,我們就看條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11420.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11448.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
個人資料保護法第41條剛才提的條文意圖為自己或第三人不法自立或損害他人自立而違反這些條文的規定這個五年以下有期徒刑我們看這個個人資料保護法第44條如果假借職務上的權利加重期刑個人資料保護法第16條 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11450.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11472.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
公務機關對個人資料之利用除第六條第一項 第六條就是那個醫院的那個部分其他的有效的情形者得為特定目的外之利用法例明文規定公職人選舉辦法第七十六條本來就是要去查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11474.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11503.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
公務 選委會選委會然後透過這個相關的這些負責人員本來就要去查對到底是不是是不是他本人是不是他有個資的這個資料對不對本來就要去查對選舉委員會說到罷免案對提議人就要去查這個身份資料到底對不對這是法律的義務法律的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11504.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11529.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
更重要的大家比較妙氣注意的公職聯選舉罷免法第77條現役軍人服替代役之現役役男或郭烏樂園不得為罷免案的提人光看這個戶籍資料早期我們的戶籍資料會有這個職業欄現在的戶籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11533.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11559.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
戶籍法規定不用有職業欄了沒有職業欄了那他是不是先運軍人要去查核啊他是不是替代役要查核啊他是不是公務人員要查核啊他是依法去查核結果被稱為查水表然後然後要鬆手是要羈押部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11564.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11573.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
局長 調查局局長 怎麼樣本來就要去查 去問他因為我父級資料看不出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11575.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11591.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
謝謝委員我想那個個案的偵查的內容我無法在這邊說明不過也謝謝委員剛才有提到就個資法裡面是五年以下有期徒刑而且公務人員還有加重二分之一的刑責對所以我想也謝謝委員提醒這個部分的法條的規定這個要請法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11595.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11615.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
這個你說當然你一定回答說這個個案不可以回答但是法律的規定最起碼有責任有義務讓所有的地檢署能夠了解所有的代法局能夠了解相關的法規好不好我們現在就是依這個法在執行好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11618.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11647.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
好 謝謝那我們現在就依照先前宣告所以臨時提案總共有一案宣讀後再進行處理那我們現在請議事人員宣讀臨時提案一列以今日本會邀請司法院副秘書長法務部部長法務部調查局局長法務部廉政署署長國家安全會議等進行專題報告並被質詢舉料國安會敬禮為今主席准假未派員到會列席依我國近期接連爆出共諜案執政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11648.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11669.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
執政黨、府院黨皆淪陷從2017年5月24日吳釗燮擔任總統府秘書長、2018年2月26日外交部部長甚至現在擔任國家安全會議秘書長、共諜皆隨時左右甚至總統、世衛士也淪陷可說敵人就在本能寺然國安會禁衛道會列席如此心虛 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11670.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11693.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
且藐視國會之行為令人瞠目結舌且不恥二 國家安全會議組織法第八條國家安全會議及其所屬國家安全局應受立法院之監督國家安全局組織另以法律定之本會依法監督國安會自無爭議三 中央行政機關組織基準法第三條依機關就法定事務有決定並表示國家意思於外部而依組織法律或命令以下簡稱組織法規設立行使公權力之組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11696.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11721.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
國安會既為機關且下轄國安局所謂諮詢機關實屬矛盾原此決議如下一國安會未經本會輪值召委同意拒絕到會接受監督藐視本會應受應於譴責二國安會應於今日十二點前派員列席本會報告提案人委員黃國昌 林倩琦 王宏威宣讀完畢好 謝謝那請問提案委員有補充說明沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11721.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11725.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那針對臨時提案 請問機關有其他意見或說明那沒有的話 請問在場委員有異議或是有意見補充 王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11746.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11755.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我再詢問一次我們司法法治委員會的同仁你們有沒有收到國家安全會議的請假書函可以回答嗎你們剛剛10點多回答我都沒有對不對對 他們有發文 但是我們沒收文你們沒收到是吧我們沒收文好 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11773.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11783.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
2025年4月18號16點39分18秒立法院司法法治委員會 收文確認你們自己收啦 你們的電子公文自己收啦然後我剛剛問你 主席還叫你們去查你們都收咧你們都收公文 然後主席叫你們去查查完之後你說你們都沒收到我剛剛10點多問你 你們都沒收到 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11804.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11814.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
然後吳宗憲委員辦公室是在2022年4月18號16點38分50秒收到了沒有 沒有這種事情啊沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11819.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11834.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
我們這邊沒有收那誰幫你們收啦對,而且我已經說明得非常清楚了當天有自稱是國安會的人到我辦公室那我辦公室...好,那稍微我不為難你我不為難你我... |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11837.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11856.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
他說要請假 然後他就問了那位國安會的人說 請問有沒有跟召委說他說沒有 那我們同仁就拒收這我剛剛在電子公文有報告過OK 這我九點多有聽到 我現在只是要確認司法法治委員會的同仁你們在禮拜五沒有收到任何的電子公文你們也沒有任何的確認 對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11858.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11866.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我剛剛10點都問一次你們說對我現在要問你們要說對要確定喔這個所有收文的紀錄都在上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11884.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11908.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我想我這邊就是從頭到尾沒有來跟我請假就對了講一個最簡單的我不管國安會今天跟誰請假那各位很多人也都做過召委那如果說今天機關的人來他完全連我他們都不來理我那我今天不管他跟誰請假就是沒有人來跟我請假以上吳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11910.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11921.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
主席剛剛您不是說國安會有派人到您辦公室要跟您請假嗎這不是剛剛您說的您現在又說沒有人來跟您請假我再說一次他沒有來找我 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11922.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11940.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
到您的辦公室不是要找委員嗎事實只有我清楚 我跟各位報告 我說清楚一下第一個 有一位自稱是國安會的人到我辦公室拿了一個信封袋 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11940.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11961.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
然後跟我助理問他說你是誰有什麼事因為他事先完全沒有跟我們通知然後這位人自稱是國安會的人說想要來請假然後我的助理就問他說有沒有跟昭偉說過那他們說沒有那我助理非常簡單的就跟他說那他拒收除非他們先跟我講 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11962.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11973.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
大家都做過召委那今天如果有任何一個機關很簡單就說我如果要請假我不想去我就不爽寄個email給你那就代表我請假成功這部分我不接受因為我們委員不是一天24小時都坐在辦公室嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11982.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12003.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
所以各個部門要找委員送公文說明預算說明法案那必然都會先派員我想剛剛主席所說的國安會不知道是誰應當是國安會的聯絡人或者是業務單位的誰沒有人知道他是誰他不可能沒有人知道他是誰而且事先沒有先約跑進來進了你的辦公室就說他是國安會的人重點是沒有人來跟我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12011.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
12015.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
委員如果您當召委我們要跟你講話他不告訴你我沒有緊張啦我是要跟你講狀況你不要在那邊亂帶風向奇怪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
12024.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12044.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
我在恢復整個事實譬如說常常會有文化部的到辦公室說遞資料給吳委員吳思堯委員那吳委員不在就資料留給我們那如果吳委員看到資料還有進一步想要理解我會再打電話給文化部也許是部長也許是次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12045.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12050.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
一般都是這樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣請假跟遞資料兩個不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12064.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12068.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
那他第一時間吃了閉門羹我們可以解釋的就是他吃了閉門羹吳釗偉不認同這種方式他吃了閉門羹那不代表他沒有試圖要去請假這第一件事是您不接受第二件事情就是這個收發文的系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12083.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12105.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
可能要請立法院的立法院的因為呢這個收發文的系統非常清楚的載明說司法法治委員會2025年4月18日16點39分18秒已經寄了這個請假的函文而且收文方確認然後在之前的28秒前2025年4月18號16點38分50秒 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12113.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12131.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
是寄給吳宗憲、昭偉辦公室而且收文方確認那如果說那個昭偉您這邊說您沒有收到然後司法法治委員會也說你們沒有收到那可能要請立法院的資訊處來查一下那這個東西因為很清楚嘛這是系統顯示的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12132.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12148.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
那難道就是系統出錯了嗎主席我想直接處理好嗎直接處理我是要委員的意思那以後吳校委員您當召委的時候任何一個機關不想來寫個email給你今天我就表示我請假完成你就必須聽我的 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12149.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12176.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
是這樣的意思嗎我今天擔任召委我擔任主席請尊重我的意見麻煩來跟我說清楚要請假的原因如果說今天有任何人想要請假麻煩跟主席說明請假的原因並且得到主席的同意這是立法院一直以來的慣例我們不接受你寫一個email或一個電子公文進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12176.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12181.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
我就要照單全收各機關的想法沒有沒有主席不要緊張沒有這種事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12182.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12185.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
我們只是在釐清他有沒有寄函文我們只是在釐清我沒有說您接不接受請假 等一下 趙偉我剛剛的詢問只是在確認他們有沒有試圖來請假那有電子還有當日那您不接受這是另外一個層次沒有試圖來請假 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12208.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12208.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
請問一下我們臨時提案提案非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12225.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12251.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
未經主席準價第一段請大家看到未經主席準價未派員到會列席好那最後我們的決議第一個也是國安會未經本會輪值召委同意未經同意然後拒絕到會接受監督所以我想剛才所講的這些事情跟我們的提案無關跟我們提案無關所以在這邊直接請求主席來處理臨時提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12252.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12265.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
是 謝謝 那我再跟各位報告另外一件事情依據我國的法制 我國的憲法制度立法委員是監督政府 不是護航政府那我們就依法處理那我們現在處理臨時提案 來 莊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12267.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12288.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
趙薇 你也趙薇 我也趙薇講這個話 可能要稍微斟酌一下請坐 我不會針對你就是說其實 確實請假要趙薇來准假這也都是事實所以你們都很生氣沒有跟趙薇請假 你會很生氣吧會同仇敵愾 對不對我告訴你 前兩個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12293.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12316.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
我邊更議程那一次請立法院秘書長周恩來來列席報告他連請假都沒跟我請假你應該跟我一樣生氣才對他是一定要來不是嗎那你剛提到的就是說其實提他涉及到有沒有請假那是一個意思表示的問題意思表示本來第一個有口頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12318.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12322.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
這個書面我們法律院我們都很清楚嘛他確實有請假但是你沒准啦應該這樣講嘛這樣才完整嘛對不對就是說國安會的人他有需要給你請假可是因為你是召委你認為他必須要親自來給你請假才可以他沒有來找我請假我再講一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12338.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12349.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
當然啦 我懂你的意思 我也沒有說他找你請假嘛就他到辦公室去嘛 搞不好去了他想找你嘛 還沒碰到你嘛那這個也沒有負面的評價嘛那所以呢 應該就是回到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12355.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12378.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
國安會的秘書長他到底有沒有這個義務到立法院備詢國安會的秘書長可不可以到立法院備詢當然可以啊你報告預算的時候當然要到立法院備詢啦國家安全的大政政策的部分他當然也就必須要來啦那個案的部分其實這個就代表會有爭議啊那你說很生氣你要譴責他 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12380.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12400.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
這個就是行李如意而已嘛我也不會有意見嘛可是不要去講說沒有人找你請假或者說在本案裡面屬性不明的時候你要發動這個譴責案這當然是一個政治的一個主張我也不會有意見可是我必須要告訴你就是說我們召委常常會碰到這種狀況該來的他連請都不請喔你們的好朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12408.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12425.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
這個會有相同標準但是我也沒有去做處理年紀大了那開玩笑那年紀那麼大我一譴責他那萬一怎麼樣別上罵名我才不要呢那真的我話還是要講清楚啦以上謝謝莊委員那我這邊再一次的說明狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12427.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12442.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
事實上就是確實國安會有一位自稱國安會的人在先沒有跟我們聯絡的情況下跑到辦公室去拿了一個信封說要請假那我們同仁問他有沒有跟我講過那一位人說沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12443.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12471.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
那我們同仁也是跟他說叫他要跟召委講一下但是從此就完全沒有任何訊息我想中委員當召委一定也不可能接受這樣子的做法那如果這樣子的話那是不是請假變成是我跟你報備就好了那也不用經過你的同意這也不是立法院一直以來的做法那第二個就是說有關中委員剛剛提到的秘書長的部分我想我們今天從頭到尾我們都沒有指定要求秘書長要到 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12472.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12486.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
我們是依據以前的慣例那這個慣例甚至是段宜康以前多次的慣例那我後來又再找出好幾次國安會都有派人來在非法律案以及非預算案的時候都有派人來那我們今天並沒有指定一定要祕書長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12487.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12514.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
所以大家可以看到我們簽到處的名字部分是空白其實我們是他們派任何人來我們可以接受我們只要能夠問到我們的問題就好其實我已經給國安會最大的空間了我並沒有指定他要來就個案部分或怎麼樣去做報告所以這以上是我說明的部分但我覺得我還是必須堅守立法院的尊嚴任何機關受立法院的邀請那如果你不能來 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12516.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12540.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
就要麻煩你請假,而且要經過召委統,我想這一直以來都是這麼做不管面對國民黨或民進黨那今天就是沒有任何一位國安會的人來跟我請假所以這就是結論,我們不要在講一些用字遣詞上面的文字在那邊玩,我覺得不需要今天我跟各位報告,就是沒有任何一個人來跟我請假,好謝謝那我們來處理臨時提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12551.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12563.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
主席不好意思你們可不可以拜託主席再回應一下關於這個電子公文收發系統的問題剛剛吳思耀委員有提出來說到底是不是需要資訊處幫忙確認不然為什麼我們現在手上拿這個表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12567.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12575.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
他所說的是收文方確認這是我們資訊系統出的問題還是因為斯大法斯委員會的議事人員你們的認知不一樣時間的關係我想說明清楚如果今天是報備制那你們說的都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12582.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12608.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
但今天請弄清楚在立法院是許可要召委同意而且沒有任何一個人打一通電話或見到我的面來跟我講今天沒有辦法過來以上就是我已經說明的非常清楚了你既然要去搞公文搞那些那以後所有的機關在貴黨當召委的時候我寫個email給你那就代表你請假你不准你給我試試看是這樣嗎所以我沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12609.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12630.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
不是 他沒有來找我請假 這要我講幾次大家才聽得懂沒有任何一個人來找我請假不要再去凹那些 沒有任何一個人來找我請假 這就是事實那我們來出於臨時提案我沒有時間在這邊跟你們玩文字遊戲臨時提案的部分 請問在場委員就臨時提案有意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12632.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12660.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
好有異議的話那我們舉手表決好那表決前請先清點在場出席委員人數好那在場出席委員11人那我們現在開始進行表決就今日的臨時提案贊成者請舉手好請放下反對者請舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12665.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12675.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
好請放下好那個表決結果在場出席委員11人贊成者6人反對者5人本案贊成者多數通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12679.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12698.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
好那我們先處理會議時間上午會議時間持續進行至所登記發言委員詢答結束為止接著我們請陳冠廷委員發言陳冠廷委員 陳冠廷委員徐宇貞委員接著我們請徐宇貞委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12719.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12725.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
謝謝主席我們請防務部鎮部長跟調查局陳局長好 麻煩鎮部長 局長委員好部長好部長我想請教一下這段時間我們對於這個檢調的辦案方式覺得十分的困惑就是檢調單位對於國民黨罷免綠委的連署動作如臨大敵 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12745.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12762.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
不但大動作搜索我們國民黨的地方黨部還對我們台北市黨部的主委黃磊錦如深壓敬見結果法院最後也判決說無任何證據可證其涉案甚至連經手提人名冊的事實都不存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12762.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12783.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
所以這種先射箭後劃靶的這種荒唐巨馬象徵著警察圈的一個濫用檢察圈的一個濫用更是對民主政治的一個踐踏而且讓大家感到困惑的是對於參與聯署的年輕人要50萬交保甚至有的被鮮壓但是對於涉及共諜案在 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12784.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12788.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
我們的前立法院院長的辦公室的助理設共諜案的才20萬交保所以請問一下部長為什麼可以有這樣子的一個差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12795.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12814.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
跟委員報告因為是個案的一個不同就像共諜案也有人收押嘛共諜案收押是在他離開了這個地方被調查大概一年半之後後院的壓力才收押的那個案的情節也不同那我也沒有參與過辦案那請問部長你沒有參與你又說這是個案那我想請教你你認為涉嫌共諜而且危害到國家安全比較重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12823.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12847.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
還是這個偽造文書比較重要哪個情節比較重大這個案的情節本來就不一樣嘛所以供諜不是有收押的嗎有好幾個要請問一下我剛剛提到的這原來在我們前這個立法院長游錫坤辦公室的這個助理盛楚英他用20萬交保他原來在立法院院長的辦公室喔那涉及供諜結果他居然可以這樣輕輕放過用20萬交保部長剛剛我聽到你說這是個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12852.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12864.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
好 那請問個案的話 共諜案表示比較不重要但是我們被因為連署疑似 疑似偽造文書的就生壓境界我們最近有四個都收押了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12865.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12882.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
對不對但是這四個收押是在一年半他離職一年半之後礙於輿論的壓力才收押的所以最後國安社很重視所以才會被爭霸所以如果還是這樣子一個雙標的存在其實人民對司法真的沒有辦法信服沒有雙標的話我們覺得好我剛剛有問部長嘛到底你覺得國家安全比較重要還是涉及偽造文書比較重要為什麼可以這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12891.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12911.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
偽造人書50萬交保涉及共諜20萬交保部長我很尊重您我覺得這個部分您也是這方面的事實上您一路上來您在法務部的各個位置都歷練過相信您對於這樣子的一個標準您自然心中有一個定見 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12912.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12929.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
但是我想全國人民都在看看我們的檢調系統看我們的法務系統要怎麼來去處理這樣子一個案子可是我們目前看到都是這種雙重標準而且半藍不半綠所以這一次我們看到的這些檢調的刀鋒根本就是針對在野黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12930.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12949.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
要不然的話不會用這樣的一個方式我們現在還有這個國民黨的黨部的副主委在收下禁建還有國民黨黨部的同仁在收下禁建然後接下來這個新北市黨部已經交保的新北市的地檢署又說要提出這個抗告 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12949.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12968.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
所以讓人家覺得就是小案大辦甚至高雄的這個領銜人徐尚賢他爸爸也提到了說這根本就是小鳥大炮打小鳥的一個狀況為什麼我們的檢調系統我們的法務系統會讓人民這樣的不幸福我覺得這個部分我覺得法務部真的要好好的來檢討一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12970.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12995.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
這個法官都准 這個搜索票是法官准的那個羈押也是法官剛剛我想王宏威委員有跟您提到嘛我們的台北市黨部跟我們這個幾個區黨部是聯合辦公的所以針對霸雙無的案子呢是在市北還有在這個萬華中正可是卻搜索了中山大同而且帶著我們的黨員名冊這樣是可以的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12995.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
13021.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
喔這個是個案齁那因為我對個案我不清楚部長那又是個案了也就是說我們現在如果在同一個共享辦公室辦公的話全部的人都要配合這個搜索嗎假設我今天就在一個共享辦公室那今天要調查A公司那我剩下的公司全部都要配合搜索嗎我有這個義務要配合搜索嗎可以拿走我們的名冊嗎你現在是要調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
13025.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
13037.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
霸雙無的連鎖案沒錯吧那是屬於市北跟這個中正萬華跟大同中山又有什麼關係怎麼可以用這樣的一個方式那另外呢我也請教這個陳局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
13040.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13066.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
有關媒體報導就是有一天呢調查局忽然通知這個我們的外站的官員進行聯合線上視訊要求這個各外勤站還有權力偵辦罷免偽造及往生連署的案件喔那調查局在視訊中也特別的舉台南檢調辦林俊憲跟王定宇罷免造假的案子參與那當然我想參與視訊的人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13068.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13081.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
接下來就毛起來衝藍營的罷免的涉案喔而且調查局也為此提供專簽績效獎勵辦罷免案查詐騙有績效獎金嗎查供諜有績效獎金嗎為什麼查這個罷免連署的就有績效獎金沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13086.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13112.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
沒有,是怎麼樣?沒有績效獎金那有這件事嗎?剛剛講的,有這樣的一個視訊會議嗎?但是沒有針對藍綠,對我們來說只有證據,沒有藍綠那請問一下,不管是部長,還有我們的局長在3月24號,我們就有去提告10位罷藍委的聯署人還有領銜團體,他們有偽造情勢的事情到現在快一個月了,一件都沒辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13113.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13117.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
但是呢現在罷綠委的呢一件一件的一直偵辦所以你剛剛講的沒有這個辦藍不辦綠的問題根本就是雙標 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13123.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13143.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
要不然為什麼我們從3月20日去提告的到現在都沒辦反而後面提告的已經都在甄辦了4月1號中選會提出來這樣子的一個告發之後馬上就如火如荼的到處搜索大搜索然後大這個大收押那為什麼我們3月20日去提告到現在都一件都沒辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13144.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13160.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
我是不曉得委員提告的是哪些啦但是以調查局在執行目前在執行來講的話我們不會去管他藍的綠的我們就是只有管證據當天我們提告的有罷免這個油耗的偽造情勢的有罷免王宏威的偽造情勢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13161.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13175.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
有罷免丁薛忠的偽造情事甚至有罷免高宏安市長的偽造情事總共有10件我們是到地檢署去提告的所以到現在將近一個月都沒有提告但4月1號中選會才提出這樣的告發卻已經連續偵辦而且到處亂搜查而且剛剛我們也講過了針對我們黃綠主委的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13182.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13210.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
事後根本查無完全事證不能因為他就是黨部的高層他就被這個懷疑是設法所以這次檢調的這樣的一個動作已經引起所有民眾的一個憤怒了所以請局長針對這個部分說明我想我再次跟委員報告在我們的調查的過程裡面我們就是只有看證據不會去看它藍綠所以不管是藍的綠的只要有證據我們一律通通都會判那剛剛我提的 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13212.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13219.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
這個罷 這個罷 攔尾的部分我們去告發的到現在快一個月了為什麼都沒有那那檢察官有發查的我們一定都是在偵查中那所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13220.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13239.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
所以發查的那些偵查中然後快賣是由你們自己決定要先查哪一件是由你們自己決定要蒐證啊這個部分要蒐證啊那請問要蒐證的狀況下為什麼沒辦法蒐證你看像後面的像前兩天呢這個什麼罷免那個我們林沛翔委員的有116件被告發 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13242.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13260.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
好 結果咧 不是去偵查 不是去搜索領銜人或霸團居然去找連署的人 問他有沒有連署這樣的執法是不是過當 而且是不是也是搞錯重點對啊 所以委員就是說 如果我們努力去做那你又說我們這個做了過頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13263.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13284.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
主長 你剛講的話都有在錄影 你要負責喔我剛剛講的是說 人家去提告的部分你應該是要去找領銜人嘛 你應該去找霸團嘛你怎麼會去找連署人說 你有沒有去連署而且早上六點半就去人家家裡搜索 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13285.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13309.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
這樣叫做你們有查這個我們依照檢察官的指揮檢察官的指揮檢察官的指揮叫你們這樣做只要去查連署人 不用查領銜人 不用查霸團看個案的內容 我現在沒有辦法跟你說我想部長還有局長我覺得檢調應該要司法公正請還給我們人民一個信任真的不要再這樣子辦男不辦女我們本來就是依法正辦 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13312.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13314.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
好 謝謝 那下一位我們請張祺凱委員發言請部長跟局長好 麻煩部長 局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13347.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13371.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
司法最基本的一定是要公正公平對不對我看了一下目前因為這個罷免案的連署兩邊去檢舉之後中選會告發的罷免就是民進黨連署有15個案子再加高鴻安一共16個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13372.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13387.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
相對這邊國民黨罷民進黨17個案子16比17結果目前已經辦了國民黨已經被辦了5個案子0比5這個有符合司法的公正跟公平嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13391.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13417.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這個每個案件的一個案情不一樣啦 案情不一樣那我也不會干涉介入 我也沒有去參與了解這些事你有聽到你這層檢察官說你這樣是不是變成司法打手了怎麼會這麼不公平 你看看咧明明是加起來16比17啊你再怎麼取樣都不可能出現這種不公平吧剛剛 局長你剛才的意思你剛才的意思是法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13418.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13437.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
檢察官這邊都沒有沒有沒有發查你現在責任是推給那個推給那個檢察官這邊嗎沒有檢察官有發查但是應該是沒有全部我們現在沒發查你為什麼0比5呢為什麼出現0比5你的意思是報告員如果你有注意到的話其實目前現在發動偵辦的都是一些死亡連署 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13439.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13461.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
的一個狀況基隆您配講那個是110多個不是死亡連署是什麼那個不是死亡連署他沒有任何死亡連署嗎來你看他不是你看中選會來看中選會的告發他什麼一件以上有涉及死亡連署或者其他的這裡面有多少16個案15加1包括高雄案的有多少是有死亡連署的你目前辦案子給我看有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13463.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13470.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
我們現在辦的都是死亡連署因為死亡連署死亡連署就是一個很明顯你不要硬啊 你不要閃避這16個案子裡面沒有任何一個案子是有死亡連署的嗎這個要看個案的要看個案 你這邊已經辦了南京這邊辦了5個啊你這邊16個 我問你16個裡面沒有任何一個有死亡連署嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13487.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13503.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
其實對我們來說沒有這個要經得起考驗喔這個非常經得起考驗對我們來說其實是沒有藍綠我們只是從這些死亡連署的人數太多的這些狀況可能檢察官覺得這個是比較嚴重的第一個中選會是有一個以上他就告發了這是第一次嘛對不對第一次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13506.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13522.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
那你應該同時辦啊你覺得有 到目前我就是在辦啊你去辦 辦到一個5比0報告一個5比0局長 局長 局長你能不能給我的答案 局長現在是嚴重 這個司法的天秤 嚴重傾斜嘛我看到也知道啊現在就是說 你到底當時要辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13524.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13544.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
你要公平嘛我現在不是講藍綠的問題你要司法是要公正跟公平的你什麼時候綠的才要辦我們很同意委員說這個司法要公平我們不是講藍綠你這樣有公平嗎我們現在就是針對如果委員你去看那些死亡連署的狀況你就會出現你就會知道說問題出在哪裡對啊你綠的我就問你綠的都沒有死亡連署嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13551.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13571.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
都沒有是嗎?15加1 包括高黃界的案 霸藍的15個案子 都沒有嗎?現在在國會殿堂 現在是對著全民講話 局長現在檢驗兩個嘛 你什麼時候開始辦綠第二個你在辦的時候有多少個是有死亡連署是綠的發起的一定經得起考驗 一定經得起考驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13572.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13597.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
好 現在是考驗 有 全民正在看你你目前已經經不起考驗了0比5你接下來就看你的進度來 保定幫你理解我們年紀都差不多啦我跟你講一個比較沉痛的事情我們這個年紀啊我們經過戒嚴到解嚴多少人為了台灣的民主法治 人權不要說流血流汗 連性命都丟了啦那鄭南榕為了爭取言論100%你們現在辦這個案子這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13601.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13626.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
這樣辦不只是沒有公正沒有公平我問你一個最簡單的你應該是一個民主素養的法務部長轉秀改民主國家除了台灣這一次國民黨的台北市黨部被你們搜索了近景連柯文哲家裡面跟民眾黨的中央黨部都被你們搜索了你的腦海裡面全世界民主國家有那個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13628.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13657.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
檢調去搜索在野黨的這個辦公室的有沒有幾個給我聽這個我對這邊是沒有人介入美國如果共和黨執政如果共和黨執政敢去搜索民進黨民主黨任何一個辦公室而且這個是權力分立的嘛這個有犯罪嫌疑要搜索的話這是要跟法院申請的如果法院沒有搜索的必要所以柏定我說你我們的年紀差不多我們經歷了那個整個民主進程你現在倒退如何啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13658.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13675.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
這個對你來講歷史定位這是一個傷害你要想辦法去補貼王往前邁進我剛問你的是一個全世界的標準全世界有哪個民主國家發生了最近這八九個月以來民眾黨的中央黨部被搜索國民黨的 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13676.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13704.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
台南的黨部被搜索台北市黨部被搜索現在台南新北都有多少人有五個人被你們縮壓我現在問的是一個普世的價值全世界民主國家美國這樣共和黨執政他敢去搜索民主黨的這個黨部嗎所以跟委員報告這個圍罩署要圍罩題這本來就是破壞民主法治的基石所以這次貴大院也是不是在去年也通過了選罷法的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13705.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13729.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
嚴懲就是這些圍罩鼠鴨圍罩這些的提議的這些的未經他們同意的我現在跟你講的我現在跟你講的是這個本來就是我現在跟你講的是你的歷史定位怎麼樣去捍衛台灣的法治跟人權我給你一個標準是說你去看看全世界的全世界的民主國家有哪一個民主國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13730.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13748.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
在野黨的黨部 中央黨部像最近這8個多月以來被這樣收手你們要經得去考驗那你如果還在意的話我講的話你還在意的話要想一想 夜深人靜的時候想一想你的歷史定位是什麼好 接下來司法處剛剛講的公正跟公平比例原則很重要嘛 對不對這是比例原則也很重要嘛 我問啊共諜案 民進黨連環報你們有沒有要好好去辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13758.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13779.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
相對的比例原則 你說有死人去連署偽造文書嘛 告知嘛 對不對這是重罪嗎國家安全這個才是國家安全法這個才是重罪法 七年以上啊這邊五年以下啊你現在用大砲打小鳥不只是無比零的問題耶需要去大縮手 大縮腰嗎這個沒有違反比例原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13783.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13792.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
個案不同啊個案不同 這五個個案變成一個通案嘛 對不對結果你五個通案的原則是什麼就是大搜索大收押嘛不是這樣嗎這個犯罪嫌疑重大當然有刑訴書啊 101條的這些要件的話 申請判決嫌疑重大 它的圖顯是五年以下它是重大犯罪嗎你要好好辦 你去辦共諜案民進黨的共諜案這完全是回到法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13812.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13836.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
刑事訴訟法的法律都有規定以及那個案情以及那個偵查案罪已經有多少法界的人士從學者到法官到檢察官律師在提醒你嚴重違反這個比例原則你都沒有聽進去嗎不要再大砲倒小鳥了來我們再看看以前的個案你從早上被問的同樣的案子以前為什麼沒有大搜索沒有大收押 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13838.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13858.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
韓國瑜一千多個案子喔我想這個不起訴所分是在你那個人已經理由說得非常的清楚非常的清楚來 法定 你說理由來我們看看呢 當初啊 綠營在高雄罷免高雄市長韓國瑜後來沒有起訴 高雄的地檢署的檢察官在那個起訴書那個不起訴裡面說什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13859.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13886.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
他說在蒐集連署的過程裡面並沒有附議證系統等方式去核對跟比照身份證字號所以自毅然去驅使說你要發責有連署者是提議前就已經死亡的情形所以是被告等人根本就難以迎之刑死偽造文書罪當初這個檢察官是這樣提的這個理由現在存不存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13887.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13908.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
存在啊 再看看郭台銘 郭台銘更多耶郭台銘五千兩百七十一個 郭台銘監督在說他們比例比較低這個數目是這麼大耶這個案子 第一個 沒有大搜索 更沒有大收押後來約談了三個主要的幹部對不對約談完以後 今年三月份 聽各位喔上個月 這個剛剛簽結喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13911.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13932.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
這兩個案子都沒事 結果你現在不只有事 你還大收手大收押你是不是有嚴重違反法律的比例原則好來 再看下一個人們以下更生氣的是什麼你有很多大案子要辦 我剛才說的你還要去辦民進黨這個共諜案聯環報 這個不是影響更大第二個 打詐的案子啊今年三月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13937.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13958.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
台灣人民被騙了一萬六千多件損失的錢高達七十一億這每個案子可能都是破一個家庭甚至是幾個人可能會想不開的事情這多嚴重啊莫定我們不要講多啦你跟我我們如果被騙個十萬塊你可能還了幾十天一輩子搞不好都記得有些人是一輩子的居蓄關財本都不見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13960.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13988.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
整個可能都家破人亡了你們有好好去打仗嗎你多一點心思去辦這個事嘛不是 我現在跟你講是比較你現在花了那麼多的人力這個打仗本來就是我們現在整個辦單人員就全力在這打仗所以那個打仗的成果我要講一下檢察官跟警方非常的認真在辦這個很辛苦嘛可是第一個是所以你現在把人力你現在把人力 把減掉人力移出去搞 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13990.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
14019.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
去搞這個偽造文書稅你這樣不是對不起你們檢察官記不起調查局的人員嗎抓重點做嘛 這個是不是更重要是不是 人民現在就是說我代表人民在問你你把打詐的事情做好不要把人力分出去做一些人民生氣的事情反正有任何的犯罪 犯罪嫌疑我想辦案人員都會都會積極的你的人力有限嘛 對不對輕重緩急嘛 你現在這個該重的地方不重 該輕的不輕這明確的話 你怎麼可以不辦呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
14020.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
14031.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
你有辦啊 所以第一個公平那第二個就是委婉比例原則嘛你把最終的事情多做才是重要的共諜案跟打詐來 最後我最後做一個最後做一個適合三個要求基於法律的平等原則不要雙標辦案不要讓人家覺得說案子碰到民進黨就轉彎了 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
14041.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
14062.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
所以請一座內你針對藍綠你在辦的狀況是怎麼樣給本席一個報告第二個依照比例原則你既然你在辦的這個偽造文書過往的人他這個連署請你把共諜案你們目前做到什麼程度也跟本席報告一下我現在不是只有本席要的全民現在盯著你們在看另外呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
14063.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
14086.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
各界現在在講 政府是濫用司法檢調的這個潛力 以大砲打小奶這個行徑我覺得不是只有對立法院負責你們應該公開開個記者會 也提出個說明以示眾議 不要讓你們基層的檢察官跟調查員接著說你們做長官的高高在上 聽不到基層的聲音也沒有去捍衛他們的這個形象一個禮拜都要一個公開說明 可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
14092.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
14111.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
主席我要求這三個特別是第三項請給本席一個八卦然後你們對外要明確的說明好不好跟全民做一個交代就麻煩照剛委員所說的處理我們年紀都差不多啦台灣真的是在一個非常危險的狀況我們年輕的時候那麼辛辛苦苦建立的民主法治人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
14113.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
14122.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
那就趕快踩煞車 怎麼讓他回到一個公正公平好不好 那這我能了解的啦好 謝謝我們下一位請羅志強委員發言主席有請部長跟局長麻煩部長 局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
14146.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
14173.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
委員好部長 局長我剛剛跟我們齊凱委員不太一樣我是在這邊是要肯定你們我覺得我們的這個檢察官跟調查局武功學得很好我送你們幾句話武林至尊 綠色簡調清算天下 莫敢不從威風 先給你一個大大的讚肯定我先來請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
14175.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
14188.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
對付霸律你們的招數叫九陰白骨爪吹破首腦招招取命兇狠威風只要是敢霸民進黨的 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
14190.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14216.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
你們查領銜人 抓領銜人 押領銜人查國民黨黨部 清算國民黨黨工通通抓 直接吹破首腦九陰白骨爪在你們檢調跟法務部的威風之下真的發揮的淋漓盡致啊我給你們大大按讚金庸的筆下 活靈活現就出了我們一個綠色檢調九陰白骨爪真的威風啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14218.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14239.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
可是我跟您講您威風的不只是九陰白骨爪您的乾坤大挪移也讓我嘆為觀止啊遇到罷免藍的有啦我也要平衡啦告訴大家說我沒有罷藍罷綠我都抓遇到罷免藍的到基隆去哇不一樣耶表面所謂的伴綠實際打藍 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14243.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14254.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
這個時候就不抓領銜人了啊這個時候就不去搜索民進黨的黨部啦跑去騷擾連署人大清早六點半去騷擾連署人太厲害了金庸都沒你厲害 太厲害了嫁禍林佩祥 市井領銜人因為 喔抱歉喔 那些連署人都被搜了 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14270.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14291.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
就告訴領銜人 資料該整理一下 要躲就躲我就問一下部長跟局長 奇怪為什麼遇到今天大藍的到基隆去的時候 忽然你就不收領銜人不押領銜人 不去查搜索民進黨的黨部了 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14292.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14318.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
這麼溫柔啊原來還有溫柔版的乾坤大挪移啊還是九陰白骨爪只是對著在野黨出啊部長 請問跟委員報告齁 因為我也不會介入個案齁那這個是個案這有檢察官跟整個指揮偵辦犯罪的這個這個我 我我不知道不介入好啦 你金庸第三大招出來叫一推二五六 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14320.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14338.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
前面不是振振有詞跟我們的張祺凱辯論為什麼我現在問到你就答不出來了是偵查中的案件我沒辦法去問是啦是啦萬用符保生符好啦沒關係通你疑問三不知通通推個案介入到個案的一個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14339.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14363.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
所以我不會去處理各位個案來來來 局長來你也不會幹 我幫你先回答了不介入個案 對不對是感謝您一問三不失雙人組加上剪掉的所謂腳印白骨爪配上乾坤大挪移威風凌厲啦威風凌厲啦當國人都傻瓜嗎 看不出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14366.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14386.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
都看不出來嗎是 我想國人應該看得到死亡連署的狀況有啊有啊你有沒有辦基隆有沒有辦基隆剛剛不是拿基隆做例子說不要說我們辦藍不辦綠基隆我們辦啦對啊我們辦了基隆你又說我們太早出門股長 朝棧太早出門太早出門查連署人 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14388.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14403.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
你另外太早出門去抓領銜人 搜索羈押推給檢察官好棒棒的時候 就是你們今天沒有差別待遇差別待遇說推給檢察官 說檢察官自己來決定我跟你講 你今天只辦藍不辦綠 我們是痛心 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14412.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14423.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
你結果今天為了要假裝你藍綠都辦你搞一個樣板叫基隆結果目的是赤裸裸去嫁禍林佩祥很多人在罵林佩祥啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14424.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14442.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
林佩祥好恐怖喔 還可以騷擾今天連署人家裡林佩祥多冤 他指揮得了你檢調嗎 請問林佩祥指揮得了檢調嗎 鄭總回答得出來嗎我可以回應你的質問嗎來 我問你的問題 林佩祥指揮得了檢調嗎我想我們這個罷免的連署案 其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14446.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14474.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
我們今天要抓的一個重點就是有沒有影響到我們選舉罷免的公平性這對我們國家來來來基隆有沒有影響到選舉罷免的公平性這對我們國家來講是非常非常重要的好啦好啦好啦我沒有在跟你講抓我還沒跟你講抓不抓的問題我講的是抓要不要公平啊你當然就問你嘛今天基隆基隆來來對一定會公平的一定會公平一定公平啊好公平啊九英白五爪對乾坤大龍你這超公平的一定非常公平啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14477.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14491.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
不要當大家是瞎子 真的 我就直接問你嘛來來來 你的法學素養深厚 兩位齁民主國家齁 有哪個民主國家司法檢調大舉搜索最大在野黨黨部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14492.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14509.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
其實這個問題其實不需要法學素養很深厚啦現在就是說偽造文書到底是不是犯罪來啦來啦我去問你嘛國際通歷不用法學素養很深厚你就那麼猛為什麼會偽造文書是不是犯罪啊不是迫害沒有來回答我啊有沒有哪個民主國家大肆搜索在野黨黨部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14510.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14528.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
搜索需要法官核發的令狀不是說我們要搜索就能夠搜索你們檢察官有沒有申請申請也要提出證據啊我告訴你司法綁在一起我現在講的是檢察官是你到現在不敢回答我因為就是沒有有啦 我錯了 我投降有啦 希特勒有啦沒有啊 我有回答希特勒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14531.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14548.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
這個我有回答你啊我告訴你啊 你回答我什麼哪個國家的名字給我聽 德國嗎哪個國家大肆搜索在野黨黨部嘛好啦 你要跟我鬼打牆金庸第四招 心血的功夫叫鬼打牆 我也佩服你 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14549.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14568.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
交給社會公平 我回答問你哪個國家到現在一個字都吐不出來 一個國家你都吐不出來鬼打牆 你逃避問題沒關係 我告訴你很簡單大法官說你可以逃避問題啊 說謊都無罪啊我剛剛已經跟我們部長多次交流這件事情今天我們在這邊 隨便你們怎麼講來 沒關係 我來告訴你我現在問你下一個問題這件事啊 你們扯到什麼地步 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14578.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14588.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
啊 扯到什麼地步共諜案 盛楚英 20萬交保我的辦公室主任 陳冠安 也是20萬交保你們用什麼罪去偵辦他 20萬交保偽造文書嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14597.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14606.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
是不是這個我們尊重這個不是我們的權責我沒有問你權責問題我們尊重檢察官跟法官來來來 部長部長請問用什麼罪用什麼案子用什麼罪名加20萬交保這個涉嫌各司法41條跟刑法210條你看嘛 局長還有那個選罷法98條局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14627.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14643.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
局長 人家部長就沒個案 你就個案 學一下沒有 我肯定啊 部長你緊張什麼對嘛好啦好啦 部長我肯定你啦沒關係啦 我肯定你啦來來來 我肯定你都不行 我否定你才高興公然打臉我們調查局局長 謝謝你他個案咧 你狀況外就不要推個案來我想請教你下一個問題啊我告訴你啊 很抱歉 很抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14657.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14665.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
如果今天陳觀安從頭到尾沒有涉入你講的那個選罷法的所謂偽造連署也好 瑕疵連署也好 死人連署也好請問你們檢方在做這事有沒有涉及濫權啊為什麼要涉及濫權 我告訴你為什麼要這樣問這個怎麼會涉及 這是依法偵辦怎麼會涉及濫權依法偵辦啊 謝謝你來 我告訴你 別人我不敢講 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14687.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14696.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
別人我不敢講陳冠安當時罷免雙無的團體希望他站出來來幫忙發聲他有跑來跟我報告我問了他一句話 你有沒有參與連署 會不會參與連署他說不會 他不參與連署只是站出來講話我跟你賭啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14716.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14737.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
他沒有涉及任何瑕疵連署跟你所謂死亡連署偽造文書啦我保證沒有啦這個我在這邊我不談個案了隨便你啦我不談個案我告訴你 你那千變萬化功很厲害啦對到你今天想答的問題你就沒有個案問題對到你不想答的問題你就個案問題我知道啦 部長你現在的習慣是如此啦我又不是不認識你但我要告訴你啊陳關就是沒有涉入啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14744.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14755.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
但是為什麼今天要20萬交保 我跟你講你們陽謀是什麼啦就扣他手機嘛 扣他電腦 手機電腦有沒有扣有沒有扣 不清楚啊 就扣了啦辦公室我的資料有沒有收進去 就收了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14764.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14780.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
我告訴你我給你一個建議真的拜託你請問我辦公室所有跟陳觀安以及陳觀安參與我辦公室各項群組乃至於陳觀安我們一起在揭弊所集合的群組裡面的所有訊息請問有沒有匯報給我們賴清德總統啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14784.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14807.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
這個怎麼可能呢?當然嘛 你一定說不可能 我知道 我做球給你啊我都沒辦法去做我做球給你 我就等你否認嘛那你就否認完就好啦我告訴你 獅子賴清德總統今天等著看我羅志強辦公室透明化啦我也直接跟你講 我跟部長講 跟局長講趕快來搜我 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14810.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14831.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
趕快來搜我 我敞開大門 歡迎你們我做好進去的準備了啦我還不懂你們在幹什麼一從頭到尾搜索陳冠恩 相專無間 志在志強啦他根本沒有任何事 沒有犯任何一點法我吱吱聲響就是因為我還真的問過他有沒有去參與連署工作他說沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14839.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14863.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
只是他們希望他來幫忙講話幫忙講話20萬交保共諜案20萬交保搞了半天幫忙監督民進黨的罪責難是跟共諜案一樣啊部長我跟你講 局長跟你講將心比心啊我今天的感受 請你體諒一下你的辦公室主任被這樣對待我看你要不要站出來講話就是這樣子啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14868.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14898.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
所以我今天說一句實在話今天我們看到你那麼多的一些所謂辯詞 誓詞人民眼睛不瞎啦我在這邊呼籲全台灣人民司法檢調淪落到跟希特勒一樣的時候我告訴你今天封陳冠安的口明天查羅志強的帳後天割台灣人民的喉 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14899.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14920.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
4月29號 拜託大家上街頭真的拜託大家上街頭我今天看到就是這個樣子謝謝下一位我們請馬文君委員 馬文君委員 馬文君委員那個羅委員 羅委員 羅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14926.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14943.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
我們接下來就麻煩羅委員代理主席有請吳宗憲委員我們麻煩部長、局長還有署長部長、局長、署長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14954.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14979.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
委員好謝謝三位 三位午安其實我覺得我剛剛在這邊從早上聽到現在當然就個案的部分在立法院盡量不要一直詢我覺得這個是大家都能夠理解但是我剛剛看一下其實大家也都在問個案包括吳思耀委員也在問個案其實我剛剛聽過來我覺得大家在爭執的並不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14982.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
15003.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
並不是說像剛剛局長所說的偽造文書是不是犯罪對偽造文書是犯罪沒錯但大家比較在意的是說你是不是公平一致的對待我想說大家一直在強調這個點而不是聚焦在偽造文書是不是犯罪那我在這邊跟全國人報告偽造文書就是犯罪但是大家在意的是說你不能因為這個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
15005.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
15032.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
他的政治傾向不同而有不同的對待模式這是第一個第二個法律上面最講求的就是手段跟目的之間的比喻原則的問題那你要達到的目的是什麼搜索跟羈押他的目的是為了保全證據那你要保全什麼證據你將來要拿出來受大家的檢驗而不是說你今天構成犯罪我就可以去你家搜索那侵佔一事物也是犯罪啊那罵人一句三字經也是犯罪啊那難道 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
15033.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
15052.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
你罵人家一句話那我就要去你家搜索或把你羈押嘛所以不是說犯罪你就可以做這些事情而是說你要去考量的是公平性以及目的手段的比喻原則我想說這個部分我先說清楚而且我從早上聽到現在而且我第二個要講的一個點就是說也是剛剛有人提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
15053.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
15082.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
如果說今天我們執行機關的人進去搜索現場的話其實搜索票上面都展明得非常清楚嘛你今天搜索哪裡 搜索的目的是什麼可以扣押哪些 還有被搜索的人是誰所以你今天怎麼可以叫現場的人把手機交出來給你在那邊看這是絕對不對的如果今天有人這樣要麻煩那個調查局或者是法務部這邊至少你要跟同仁講不能幹這種事情啊我自己以前帶隊搜索的時候我看到這種我一定會制止啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
15083.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
15104.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
因為他不是被搜索人那如果照你這樣講的話那今天如果說有人到某一家公司搜索那是不是全公司的人的手機都交出來我看一看如果說今天我們承辦的人可以去看人家手機那我想請問一下那一支手機後來有沒有出現在扣押物品清單裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
15105.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
15132.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
如果沒有的話你既然沒有要扣押他你憑什麼去看他手機的內容如果有這樣的是絕對違法所以我在這邊也是一樣跟國人報告這個是我們正當的合法的訴訟上面的權利法律上面的權利如果今天你在現場你也不是被搜索人搜索案件也跟你無關如果說今天那個執行者來叫你交出手機或是叫你跟他走你根本就不用理他為什麼要理他就像我們那天釣魚站 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
15133.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
15153.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
有人去罷免了現場叫某一個某一個民眾跟他走一樣啊那我覺得最簡單嘛你要嘛就出示G票啊你把他帶走嘛否則你在那邊跟他盧幹什麼他不願意去就不願意去啊你就不應該在現場一直跟他在那邊盧半天啊那你現在當然講個理由說因為他先生說要找他什麼什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
15154.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
15170.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
那今天當事人不願意啊就算是夫妻關係先生也不能逼太太去哪裡啊先生也不能說叫調查官去把太太帶回家這都不對啊所以當天這個執行是有問題我當天看那個電視新聞在報導我就覺得那個調查官在幹什麼怎麼可以說到縣長那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
15171.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
15191.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
叫當事人跟他回去否則你就出示G票出來假裝G票出來那你民眾就知道跟他走我個人覺得是這樣這是正當的法律程序這是民眾的權利我想除非我講錯那部長跟局長都可以打聯我那我如果沒有講錯再麻煩今天你到現場去拗他民眾跟你走 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
15192.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
15220.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
這本來就是違法的你就不能幹這種事情啊更何況說今天有另外在場的人出來抗議說公務員怎麼可以做這種事情那這也不對啦沒有這跟法務部沒有關係不過我這個高雄跟委員關心這件事情事實上這個高雄地檢署發新聞稿說調查局人員經有出示證件表明身為沒有在執行任何搜索科要具體任何我沒有意見所以這部分所以部分媒體報導的訊息更是 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
15221.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
15239.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
我沒有意見啦因為確實有媒體報導說他沒有出示證件那這個部分我剛剛從頭到尾都沒有評論我今天的意見在這邊不管他有沒有到場說他是誰或出示證件你今天沒有檢察官的G票你就不能叫民眾跟你走嘛我想這是一個最簡單的道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
15239.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
15258.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
那他這邊說他先那個調查官說先生叫太太怎麼樣我覺得那個是兩回事就算你也沒有權利命令你太太去哪裡或叫調查官去把你太太帶去哪裡我覺得這沒有任何法律上的依據部長剛剛講的東西我懂但是我剛剛不是質詢這一塊好 謝謝部長好 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
15259.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
15288.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
我先請教一下那個廉政署請問一下你們100年到現在就對那個機關安全維護等等這個但是呢我們卻發現有一個隱藏近9年的這個共諜那你們將來要怎麼去管制這一塊跟委員報告機關安全的公務機密的維護這一塊我們其實就是說各政控單位裡面的人都有在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
15289.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
15307.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
但是我們主要上面來做它是針對公務機密上面的一個維護來做那麼未來的部分也會朝這樣方向繼續努力那基於像是國家的這些機密的部分我們也會盡量說建議就是減少人去接觸那有關於一些安全意識的部分也會去宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15308.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15333.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
那再來對於一些違常的一些事件我們如果發現的話也會主動的去協助去提供給我們的負責的一個機關去處理那因為主要是那個我想你們都知道哪一件嘛因為主要是吳釗燮以前的助理啦那因為這個案子還在偵辦所以那個細節跟詳情我不去過問我只是說那為什麼一個人到那邊九年卻只有做過一次的安全考核那這個是因為吳釗燮帶來就不用做嗎是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15337.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15356.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
因為目前上面的這個依照中層查核這個部分它的法源依據是在公務員任用法裡面它對於有沒有些特別的需要查核的這個部分它是經過那些職務上是經過公告以後再請調查局這邊來做那實際上負責查核的部分跟查核的項目是由調查局來做這個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15358.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15378.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
原則屬沒有碰這一塊好 謝謝署長這個部分這幾位大概只有這個何仁傑他當時在出任的時候因為他是在那個植物列表裡面所以他有查核過一次那另外像吳尚宇啊 盛楚英這個都沒有在那個植物列表裡面所以他們都沒有經過這個特殊查核也跟機關沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15383.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15405.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
那我在這邊也跟各位說明一下其實我個人像我行政機關我也待過那今天有媒體出來說這個人只是安排行程的啦不是重要人員我覺得這個是騙人的我們的行程分為公開跟非公開能夠安排行程的人絕對是非常重要的尤其是他會觸碰到非公開的行程 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15405.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15428.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
所以今天如果有一個人可以到安排到重要的長官的行程但他卻是共諜其實這對長官的安全是傷害非常大所以我覺得有一些媒體很喜歡帶這些風向不是說安排行程就不重要反而我覺得那個是更重要的我們同意委員的說法所以就是說將來我們會希望就是說從他揭秘的 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15429.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15447.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
的這個條件來去框說哪些是需要查核的對象好 謝謝那我再請教法務部跟調查局我想請問一下因為我這樣看了一段時間那個反滲透法我有看到你們的一些報告你說檢察機關在2023年反滲透法起訴11件2024年起訴了60件那我想請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15453.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15475.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
這個數據之外 那這一段時間施行以來不起訴幾件 還起訴幾件 跟牽解幾件你們有沒有去做的我這邊沒有資料沒有是不是 好 那今天沒準備沒關係 那我這邊跟各位報告一下就目前呢 我手上看到的無罪有十件而且有一件是高雄高分院已經駁回檢察官上訴一審判有罪的是四件 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15476.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15499.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
那這起訴Eason有罪的這事件將來會不會被維持有罪判決我們也不知道但是有更多是不起訴或是簽結那我有看到一個報導說台北市有21個人就直接就不起訴那花蓮也有約談22個後來都不起訴還有更多都是直接簽結的那我的意思是這樣就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15501.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15524.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
反滲透法這個法律出來之後其實我對這個法律是有非常多的懷疑在裡面因為我們都知道起訴一個人將來要判有罪必須要有直接的證據那您今天如果依照反滲透法他可能受對岸的招待受我們敵對來源的招待或受他們的影響或誘惑等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15525.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15540.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
但是這些證據將來甲官要怎麼去跟對岸要難道你行文去國台辦請你提供自己的犯罪證據或請你提供請這一團的人的單據核銷你覺得國台辦會理你嗎其實不可能嘛那所以說將來起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15542.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15558.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
到法院會判有罪的我覺得我不用去看結論我光是從法律的設計我都覺得應該很不容易除非是在極端罕見的情況下才有可能法官判有罪那到最後反滲透法變成什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15558.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15572.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
變成是大量老民的工具所以將來我一定會去要所有的數據我們弄清楚這段時間我們傳喚了多少人找了多少民眾來有多少老人家因為去大陸旅遊回來就整團被帶去問 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15574.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15603.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
這就像早期人家在查什麼招待旅遊選舉招待旅遊那種一樣一次兩三百人被帶到吊牙站去問就會變成像這個狀況再發生那在以前我們都認為說這搞到最後根本沒有什麼人被起訴變成非常的老民那到今天反滲透法就是變成我剛剛所說如果我們今天可以證明說他拿了對岸我們講中共好了他拿了中共的資金然後來台灣做一些違法事 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15604.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15618.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
你們要起訴他 判有罪 我都覺得應該而且這些人就給他死 就是給他從眾處理我都贊成 我都支持 因為他叛國 他對不起我們台灣人但是呢 問題是今天的法律設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15619.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15640.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
他很多直接證據將來在法庭上面你根本拿不出來啊所以搞到最後反滲透法在這幾年的運作下來變成是騷擾很多人民的做法所以你說這個東西在政治上面的感覺是什麼就是讓很多人都覺得就殺雞儆猴讓大家不敢出來那為什麼我今天會提到這個 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15641.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15660.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
我就認到現在一年多有非常多的民眾來跟我陳情這些事情他們是去宗教交流或是去農產品的交流結果呢他們被搜索被帶回去被扣手機然後大家嚇得要死有非常多是鄉下人他說他被問了之後即使後來一審判無罪不是沒有起訴是一審判無罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15661.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15675.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
結果林李看到他都不敢跟他講話那這個是我們政府對待人民的方式嗎民進黨口口聲聲說人民是頭家結果呢有這樣子你的雇主來傷害自己頭家的事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15677.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15696.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
因為我最近收到非常多啦然後我還有看到一件的資料因為那件是已經起訴到院方所以後來我有看到月券後的一些資料我發現有一個狀況就是就是他有用騙的耶因為他在筆錄的時候他跟那個老人家說另外一個人已經承認了 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15697.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15720.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
另外一個人已經承認結果我們看那個筆錄的時間點他在做這個筆錄告訴這個老人家說另外一位人已經承認了那個時間點另外一位根本還沒有做筆錄因為我們筆錄都有時間嘛所以像這種東西怎麼會把二三十年前那種騙的用拗的用恐嚇的那種問筆錄的模式卻放在今天而且對付的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15721.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15746.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
鄉下的老人家這個我其實我不太能接受尤其是我們說司法改革已經這麼久了那怎麼我們還在走回頭路用騙的那難道是因為績效嗎因為什麼嗎更何況那麼多案子後來都不起訴或無罪所以我覺得這個不應該啦那還有一個是我們做筆錄的時候一個是打字另外一個問嘛後來我們發現還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15749.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15778.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
問到一半有長官進來然後叫當事人要承認然後來指導辦案的其實這個都讓我覺得整個詢問的方式在走回頭路那因為我跟你講齁我現在講的這個個案是我們現在受理但是因為他現在還有一部分人一審還沒有判所以我現在沒有辦法跟你們講個案但是我在案子結束之後如果有人跟我問我會把整個講出來因為我不想干涉任何個案好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15779.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15803.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
再我還要提一個就是最高檢察署有發新聞稿最高檢察署發新聞稿說有人問到說這個反滲透法這個處理下會不會造成寒蟬效應很多人民受害他說沒有他說主要是對於行為人或主謀可是我們看到這一段時間所有反滲透法案子是非常多的善良老百姓就被教訓然後被下的鑰匙 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15804.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15810.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
然後檢察官很多都是跟他說你就認一認還起訴沒事所以導致有很多案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15812.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15839.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
那些民眾只是去旅遊的回來他怕繼續惹事或被關他下的鑰匙後來他就直接那我認給我還起訴那現在發生了一個問題其實我們自己當過檢察官都很清楚當事人有時候他是他承認然後我們就給他還起訴可是證據到底充不充足懲辦檢察官心裡其實是心知肚明很多時候他甚至因為證據不足他覺得起訴有風險他會跟當事人講說那不然我給你最輕微的還起訴換你的承認那將來會發生一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15841.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15854.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
如果有一些陪著你們所謂祖賢 祖謀到大陸去旅遊結果回來之後這些去參加旅遊的人都承認都還起訴了結果後來祖賢因為證據不足判無罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15855.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15874.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
那這樣怎麼辦那這些被騙被騙去做緩解訴的這些人以後怎麼處理法務部有沒有思考這個問題或調局有沒有思考這個問題報告委員那個你剛提的這個狀況其實跟法條的規範是不一樣的這個反滲透法它要規範的是受滲透來源只是委託資助而違反選罷法選罷法是其中一個一個太樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15875.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15888.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
所以基本上這個法條的處罰對象是揪團的人如果以你說去大陸旅遊的話法條要處罰是那個揪團的所以那個參團的人絕對不會是不會是受到起訴或者是不起訴這個案子就是在選舉前的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15893.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15909.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
這個案子因為現在一般這種這種案子都會發生在選舉前沒有錯對這案子是選舉前的那這些人現在也都跟我們辦公室在都是密切的聯繫那因為有部分還沒有被判目前被判的一審已經判的都無罪那將來 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15910.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15937.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
我覺得我等後面幾個一審都無罪的時候我案子我就可以公開開來好那到時候沒關係我們再來談嘛但是我要跟各位報告一件事情選舉到了總是用這個方式來讓大家晉升我覺得這不對因為我們明明是民主國家我們現在的政黨一直追求民主結果走到最後我不知道政黨在追求什麼然後另外就是在問筆錄的我剛剛講到還起訴的部分不要到最後變成是主謀的那個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15939.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15960.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
判無罪就其他反而到場的那些人變成還起訴我想說那就等著看將來會不會這樣因為我手上的資料就已經有這樣的狀況了沒關係那之後我會等其他人在一審都判完之後我就來跟大家來討論這個案子然後第二個就是我剛剛提到的詢問時候的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15961.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15982.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
用騙的 用拐的我想跟各位報告如果說 除非你認為筆錄你真的敢像以前一樣不錄音不錄影或是像高鴻安或是柯文哲的案子中間有中斷除非像這樣子啦 那發生了什麼事我不知道否則如果你全程錄音錄影的話你所有詢問的方式將來都會曝光 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15984.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
16006.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
那不要說到最後別人把這個東西開庭的資料拿出來然後再來跟大家去質疑這個我覺得沒有必要這樣子尤其是我看了最近幾個案子來跟我陳情我覺得很多都很嚴重違反法定的程序再包括部長這個案子已經起訴了已經不是我在偵查中討論割愛 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
16007.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
16030.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
你們的北檢的那位檢察官跑去問審慶金的時候竟然可以在筆錄問的被告的詢問筆錄後面括號記載自己的主觀判斷我真的不知道有人會這樣做筆錄主觀判斷只能出現在勘驗筆錄什麼時候我們對於被告的詢問筆錄還可以括號被告眼神怎麼樣我真的不知道可以這樣做那部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
16032.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
16041.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
我覺得我講了我也不知道你會不會聽進去但我覺得司法一直信任度一直被這幾位少數的檢察官一直破壞這不是國家的福氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
16043.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
16061.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
這個是一個筆錄的記載,這個筆錄的記載本來就是書記官的執行,我當過書記官喔這個本來就是可以記載被告的申請,那是本來就可以記載的被告可以拒答、哭泣等等的我們會記載但是我們會放入自己的主觀判斷在裡面嗎?我請部長自己先想清楚這個點 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
16064.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
16082.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
好啦 最後我知道那個蔡委員我認為啦 司法是拿來抓犯罪的司法不是政治工具那國安法的目的也是為了針對跟清算中共的對台灣的陣後勢力不是拿來對付無辜的國人請大家記住這一點司法是對付犯罪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
16083.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
16095.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
國安法是對付外來的例如中共的外來的滲透的勢力所以司法不該是政治攻防的工具國安法也不應該是對付無辜國人的工具謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
16114.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
16132.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
好 不好意思 謝謝莊銳雄委員 請多擔待謝謝張委員 有請我們法務部部長還有剛剛還有一個廖先祥 廖先祥 廖先祥接下來我們請莊銳雄委員發言法務部部長 還有我們大局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
16138.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
16166.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
國務委員好部長還有局長我覺得剛剛吳委員 吳昭偉在質詢的時候你們都答得不好都答得不好你要想 壓倒要撲人刑法兩百七十七條傷害罪五年以下有嫉妒心連三撲五個任何一個檢察官你押不押社會重大矚目不是嗎詐欺罪啊 三百三十九條 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
16169.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
16186.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
五年以下有期徒刑我都說五年以下的連署騙五天騙十天承辦一年我們押不押社會有壓力同樣啊210條偽造私文書啊大量在連署造假死亡連署這個也是五年以下集團性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
16187.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
16198.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
你說同樣的一個罪責 你就叫檢察官說 求你講的 都放 甚至有人講說哎喲 這個比例原則啦 甚至你覺得說好像大炮在打小鳥啊這個讓檢察官有一個辦案的一個空間是一個好事啊這樣解釋得好啊 所以你們解釋得不好 兩位都請回 不想問你們了我們請司法院的副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
16217.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
16247.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
好 委員好我想來請 還有我們 呃 還有我還不敢問副秘書長 國安部我們今天政治專案局保安保防安全處處長也有到嘛 齁國安部 還有我們 還有軍事安全總隊總隊長黃總隊長請你們上來不是刁難你們啦 是因為剛好呃 我其實在上禮拜啊 請教過我們司法院啦這整個國安案件的一個審理啊 這個部分啊我 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
16248.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
16272.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
我都覺得我們沒有得到答案可是我們上個禮拜去考察我們法官學院的時候本席突然有得到一些靈感所以要來救教就是說我們一般國安案件沒有公開審理所以一般民眾常常會看到結果看到這個結果以後呢這個過程就比較沒有辦法去理解因為沒有辦法去公開所以民眾在對審判的過程裡面認為比較黑箱 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
16275.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
16289.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
那法院有時候審理一個案件的時候文來文去到底是有沒有違反到國安涉及到整個資料的一個調查那像譬如說民眾會認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
16290.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
16315.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
都已經把機密交給敵人了 怎麼判這麼輕可是對法官來講 他會認為你這個洩密的文件 你到底是有沒有涉及到機密或者是一般的文件 那就很麻煩了那所以呢 法官審理的時候 必須要送國防部去鑑定機密的等級甚至於保密的一個期限那到最後如果得到的是 國防部說 回給法院說 這是一般文件而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
16315.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
16318.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
可是媒體一披露了就是說已經把這些機密交給敵人了法院判下來無罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16324.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16345.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
很合理啊 如果是一般文件沒有涉及到機密的話很有可能真的是無罪啊所以會產生很大的一個問題啊那大家啊 看不到法官怎麼樣做出這個判決的時候因為沒有公開審理嘛 府民司法沒有公開審理那所以呢 也沒有辦法去知道說整個法官的整個新政行程的一個過程自然會有落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16346.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16356.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
那第二個就是說我剛剛提到的法院在等國防部的一個鑑定時間你以為去拖延有時候一來一往連羈押的期間都已經過了那所以呢本事要提出來的就是說這個我們現在的法官也不按這個不熟悉這整個軍事跟國安的一個風險的一個評估畢竟不同不是說他程度低喔是那個整個養成的一個過程裡面還有所處的環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16375.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16393.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
跟過去整個軍事審判 軍法官他的一個看法會有所不同那司法院是不是藉著這個機會好好來說明你們還有沒有什麼樣的一個難處應該可以跟社會來做一個溝通我這一點要來請教我們的副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16395.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16424.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
好非常謝謝委員那個確實委員有提出了一些就是我們法院在審理國安案件的時候碰到了一些那個情況那當然每個個案的情形都不一樣的那委員確實有講到了一個情況就是有比較普遍性的就是我們在今年那個法官學院對於確定的案件做一個那個個案研討的時候呢他有呈現出一個狀況就是說那個因為所謂的這個機密資料呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16424.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16452.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
他必須是要經過國防部判定他的屬性因為像這些那個哪一種的機密呢他是屬於說是那個國家機密或是國防秘密或者是國防以外的秘密甚至於只是一般的文書這個都是要經過就是國防部他來判定他的屬性還有他的種類跟他那個保密期間這個是我們那個法院必須那個尊重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16453.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16475.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
那有在那個 就是個案中呢 也有發生過 就是說因為偵查的時候 如果你羈押人的時候 他們辦案期間全部就只有四個月時間 就是羈押期間所以常常他們因為那個偵查期間不夠那有時候有碰過說在偵查中呢 這些判定的程序都還沒有做完的時候 就起訴來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16476.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16499.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
那所以就法院就必須就這一些因為有時候起訴的那個罪數非常多甚至有這一個個案呢他就有36項的那個罪起訴的36個罪那就一個一個去問說到底是哪一種的那個機密那像這一種情況呢他就會涉及到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16500 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16512.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
就是說那個一個是時間上的延長那還有甚至於就是說判定回來之後他其實根本就不是屬於機密那就不構成那個犯罪嘛跟構成要件不符合就必須要那個判無罪這個情形那委員剛剛還有講到一個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16516.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16540.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
就是說有關於就是說他最後產生的這個風險啊這個是等於是那個犯罪的那個損害有多大這個是量刑其中一個很大的一個因素嘛那我們所那個建議法官的這個有焦點團體焦點團體就包括那個國防部還有那個國安局等團體他們那個就是建議有關於那個國安案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16541.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16544.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
所以問題就來了我們列席所有的單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16571.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16595.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
你們不是在看戲跟你們非常有很重大的一個關係一個案子到底到最後法官會判出來會是怎麼樣其實很多都是各個單位的一個問題法官在這個地方在做獨立審判的時候有時候各位所提供的一些證據或者事實常常都會影響到整個到最後整個案件的具體的一個判決你這樣譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16597.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16626.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
一個案子裡面到底到最後罪責是不是相當判決做出來你也要說得通啊然後老百姓才有辦法去做一個幸福啊本席為什麼今天再一次請司法人員上來的原因就是說我們接下來如果說要回顧到整個軍事審判的話這個制度的一個設計裡面我們最擔心的像譬如說光部這個地方我們法官的地位到底是什麼你們對軍法官的專業的一個養成你們真的準備好了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16628.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16632.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
你們真的準備好了嗎因為你平常看起來你們現在是沒有案子可以辦的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16633.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16659.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
那你這到了真正有急迫的時候你們真的有辦法去運作嗎 請說明委員好 我是國安部法律司法律基調處處長針對委員垂詢的這部分其實軍法官的部分其實在103年之後確實沒有從事這個偵審的工作但是在未來如果修法恢復之後我們會針對跟司法院也好法務部也好會針對訓練部分來做一個加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16660.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16688.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
那其實軍法官在軍事專業跟法學部分其實是沒有太多問題可能是未來針對不管是偵查技巧也好或是審判上應該要注意的事情我們會跟相關機關來做協調來做一個訓練以上我是比較懷疑啦我是比較懷疑不是說他的程度不好啦有時候那個文化真的會不同啦你說比如說一個上位啊你們上位多久一定要升上去否則就要強制退伍的17年吧對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16690.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16718.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
那你法官是有終身保障咧?其實軍法官的部分確實是軍官但是他也是審判法上的法官當然嘛他是軍官嘛他在審判的時候當然他也叫做法官嘛可是跟普通法院的法官那就是不一樣嘛普通法院的一個法官的話他整個地位的一個保障然後整個審判的一個獨立比較有辦法去做一個確保啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16719.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16722.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
那你如果是一個軍法官涉及到他的升遷的問題還有他整個軍階 這個是不是毫無影響到整個他審判的時候的一個獨立性 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16734.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16754.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
這個其實都值得去探討的一個地方這個我們會用法律來規定相關的一些保障那當然啦所以我倒覺得像我們這一次來看的話大家在看說這整個軍法官是不是專業上不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16755.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16778.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
制度上的一個設計是不是有漏洞這怎麼樣去補強尤其是軍法官的身份其實跟普通法院的法官也不一樣這變成說身份不明有升遷壓力的問題的時候會涉及到整個審判獨立的一個保障我希望這個未來這個整個制度你們可以好好的趕快去提出以這樣的一個制度上的一個設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16780.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16797.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
但是以目前來看的話比如說你們軍法官好像也有調到各地檢署或者法院裡面跟他們好像也大家一起跟著一起學習調到地檢署協助辦案協助辦案問題是你們辦的也不是未必是國安案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16798.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16825.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
居士案件都有協助所以嘛所以嘛畢竟還是有本質上的一個不同那至於我們所提到的剛就叫我們副秘書長的部分就法官在量刑那個部分你們當然有一個準則在類似參考的一個標準但那個部分是不是太過於簡略應該更具體或者說應該怎麼樣來在制度上再去做一個精進否則 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16827.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16848.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
涉及到一個判決啊那常常有時候你會跟社會上落差真的會很大這個部分也覺得我們司法院也應該跟國防部啊或者說法務部啊或者相關的一個單位啊大家共同再去做一個研擬司法到最後還是最重要的還是要回歸於人民對他的一個信賴啦好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16853.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16872.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
好 謝謝所有發言 登記發言委員都已經發言完畢那詢問結束我這邊還要請法務部跟會同調局一個月內要給我這邊一個報告就是2023年到2024年立委大選期間違反選罷法還有反滲透法 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16878.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16906.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
就是裡面這些案子中有牽結不起訴還有還起訴的件數還起訴處分的件數已經職權送在意的案件數還有整理判決無罪的理由因為這個東西對我們將來有關反滲透法的偵辦還有法律問題將來是否要修法我覺得這個很重要所以麻煩一下法務部跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16907.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16908.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
教育局能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16910.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16937.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
在一個月內給我一份這個報告因為我從目前我手上看到的數據來看有關反滲透法他的簽結不起訴他的比例真的非常高也就是說他最後判一審有罪的其實比例已經很低最後確定會判有罪的我還不知道會到多低那這個可能是有才能夠有利於我們將來對於反滲透法我們希望他怎麼樣把它精緻化好謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16939.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16960.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
那委員質詢的時候要求提供的相關資料或是以書面答覆請相關資料請速送交個別委員還有本會委員翁曉琳陳冠廷所提的書面質詢均列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面回覆那本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16966.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16967.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
好 今天不打工 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16998.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16999.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
谢谢 谢谢 |