| IVOD_ID |
165995 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165995 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-28 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-4-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期第11次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
11 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期第11次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-28T10:24:33+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-28T10:55:32+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:30:59 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90c42a9ce79e38a5d70dba321ed462667ac07857f1cd0c589d9bb1a3670a86b628ecc4a3d608f005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳昭姿 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:24:33 - 10:55:32 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-28T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第4會期第11次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。（11月28日）二、討論事項：本院財政、內政、經濟、交通、社會福利及衛生環境五委員會報告審查行政院函請審議「中央政府花蓮馬太鞍溪堰塞湖災後重建特別預算案」案等9案。（12月2日）三、11月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。） |
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謝謝院長有請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢陳委員好院長早院長請問台灣的少子女化是不是已經進入國安的層次了呢 |
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從過去很多年以來政府就持續關注少子女化的問題也推出了很多少子女化的相對應的政策那我現在我們從去年開始我認為我們推出的不應該是政策而是少子女化的對策所以我們要求我們的政委要持續的針對這個問題做有效的一個研議 |
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因為民進黨自2016年執政到現在已經邁入第十年那面對少子化問題提高生意剛剛你也說了一些就是說你們做的從政策到對策那我想請教你我相信政府很努力但是你認為成效好嗎 |
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當然成效不見得很好這個世界各國通力都是如此我們也注意到有些國家好像有一點成效我們會積極的來看看有什麼方法能夠讓國內來試用請不要說全世界都一樣因為上上禮拜的愛爾蘭綜藝院團來訪我跟他交換了一些意見他們的生育率是1.5我們是0.82所以這個不是全世界都一樣第二個非常慘的真相慘酷的真相是我們是全球倒數第一 |
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你要爭全球第一都不容易何況還是全球倒數第一也是很不容易的院長請你看看這張圖這張圖的左邊這個是左邊是出生人數你可以看到從2016年開始像溜滑梯一樣往下滑當時是21萬去年是13.5萬去年還是榮年的那這個人口的負成長已經連續58個月 |
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那出生地名到多次登上這個美國CIA報告美國智庫報告還有美國非常知名的這個新聞媒體報告像Newsweek你可以看到他這個標題這是他最近的撰文台灣的人口你看到他的兩個字CrisisVersus |
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Crisis就是危機Worsen就是惡化這是雙重強調所以有網友就在下面留言酸政府說少子化辦公室大成功又有一家妹妹成為中共同路人又在唱衰台灣還有人說民進黨黨綱實現了院長你知道他們在講什麼嗎民進黨的黨綱你知道民進黨一直都沒有去更新裡面有一條叫人口政策應重視提高人口素質減少生育率 |
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前面對後面還在減少生育率麻煩請你們的黨員去把這個網站那個檔綱更新一下那對於少子化運動我想請教您到10月上個月為止出生的多少人數 |
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216.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我們現在認為要保12萬都是相當大的挑戰沒關係我告訴院長部長你也說不出來9萬0839人那我們如果只有這10個月去推算12個月的話那大概是10萬人台灣的低生率經濟是主因目前根據主計總數的所謂的國人薪資平均來計算有7成的勞工人口他是落在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
217.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
245.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
他的平均數以下所以院長當國人認為就是說他連養活自己都有困難了那無論你做多少生育的補助啦育兒的補助那他面對這個他很多養育兒的成本高房價相對低薪他們自己都養活不了了你想他們會會不會覺得這樣是有幫助的嗎所以你看到的是不是一直往下滑院長您同意我這個觀察嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
246.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
272.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
所以過去幾年來我們這個關於少子女化的相關的預算是逐年增加但我認為他並沒有顯現出我們期待的要求我知道你們努力但是效果不佳嘛現在剩10萬你才被王國滅種我很不喜歡講這個話那院長我先再來談這個輝達選址現在在落在北市科T17跟T18請問院長您對這個輝達來台灣社長是持正面的肯定的態度嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
276.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
298.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
就國家的立場我們當然希望這個有助於國家高科技發展的產業能夠在台灣設立它的若干機構或是研究中心等等都是國家歡迎我們願意提供各種的行政協助我們都樂見也增加工作機會那輝達在台灣設廠後提供給台灣員工的福利您覺得是不是應該跟他提供給美國員工的福利一樣好呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
299.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
314.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
企業有他的規劃我們希望他能夠把台灣這麼廣大有效率勞工當作公司的資產好好的來照顧我們當然應該幫台灣的員工爭取一樣的福利這個態度是OK的我要報告院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
316.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
344.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
但是回答在台灣的員工我們希望他享有在美國一樣的福利可是台灣的某些法規可能會他的某些福利帶來這個障礙請院長看這張投影片這是輝達官網上員工福利專區的一段內容其中一項就是協助支持對代理孕母的選擇院長 輝達員工的福利非常明確包含代理孕母跟收養的支援服務你看最上面那一題 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
348.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
370.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
就是這樣黃仁勳鼓勵輝達的員工要用多元的方式成立家庭但是台灣到現在還沒有把代孕法制化當輝達把同一套企業福利帶到台灣來的時候你要輝達跟黃仁勳來違法嗎還是你要他在台灣的員工因為他在台灣工作而他的福利受到限制嗎院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
371.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
387.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
每個國家的法律的規定不一樣那我們現在對代理育母這個還在積極審慎的研議當中雖然我認為這是一個可以讓剛剛委員所說少子女化問題獲得解決但他更應該解決的是整個社會的認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
389.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
417.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
臺灣有一些先進的一些觀念像同婚我們是走在世界前面但也經過很長的社會溝通你要談共識但是世界上沒有一件事有共識同婚是555你也做了這個就是一個政策的主導的一個政府的概念但是部分執政黨立委一直把黛玉妖魔化了指稱說這個是販賣子宮剝削女性我想先請問一下我們先不談全世界大概有30個國家明確立法當然是有條件的規範明確立法是合法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
419.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
447.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
當輝達的官網也自詡他擁有全業界最優秀的育兒政策這是他有寫的非常動人的一個說明在裡面他包含收養跟代理義母制度而且是無上限的報支他的英文是叫Unlimited Reimbursement跪打某些立委的邏輯那是不是錯亂呢一方面說他是台灣之光那一方面難道認為黃仁勳支持代孕那他在剝削女性嗎 院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
448.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
463.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這是錯亂啊這些國際大廠他到世界各國做佈局我想基本上他要符合當地國的法律的規定那目前我們還沒有朝向完全開放的態度法制化但是在態度上我們是跟社會做積極的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
466.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
489.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
接下來我稍微跟院長跟部長說明一下很多人對代孕不放心是因為不了解了解有時候就會不同的態度請仔細了解民眾黨的版本內容是如何給需求者一線希望包括不孕者跟同志伴侶首先哪些人可以委託代孕最基本的委託代孕者當中一定要有一個人是具有中華民國國籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
491.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
514.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
而且符合下面情勢沒有子宮或因子宮病變免疫疾病或其他事實難以孕育子女這個很容易診斷因懷孕或分娩有嚴重危及生命之虞所以絕對不是有錢就可以找代孕這個是條件那有反對代孕的人說開放代孕會讓中國人來洗台灣的人口這是非常荒謬可笑說法請看清楚我們48條之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
515.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
533.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
代孕必須具有中華民國國籍這是非常前提當然我們也要有生過小孩的經驗代孕前他必須接受心理生理社會家庭的影響的專業評估如果他有配偶還要一起來評估就是確定他適合代孕 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
535.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
558.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這一切都以未來孩子的利益為最優先絕對不是隨便都可以當代孕媽媽所以需要一連串非常嚴謹的一些評估跟檢查絕對不可能有什麼中國洗人口的問題很重要的就是請院長部長能夠繼續了解進行代孕之前委託被代孕媽媽都需要知情 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
559.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
581.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
且同意民眾黨版本第12條規定醫療機構在做任何手術之前都必須向受術者及其配偶以及代孕者如果他有配偶包括他的配偶把必要性方法成功率合併症可能的替代方案或是風險都講清楚而且要雙方用書面同意然後經過公正 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
582.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
597.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
就是我們的法案版本是這樣那大家關心代孕媽媽的權益部分民眾黨的草案版本保障代孕者的健康跟身體自主權就是說他日常的生活健康之外要有隱私不可以隨便被不當的打擾都是由代孕者來自主 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
598.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
622.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
生產以後的探視權也可以雙方事先約定如果法官認為不利於孩子 法官可以介入可以就要求調整或是改變同一個療程當中 如果他代孕沒有成功他可以終止 不再續約等等瘦數配偶需要替代孕者投保人身保險 保障安全總之我要報告院長還有部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
624.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
649.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
整個法案的核心就是在保護願意幫忙別人的人還有未來即將出生這個孩子這是我們整個法案的這個核心我請院長跟部長能多了解那院長我長期這個在推動單元法治化即便我的家庭跟我收養的孩子受到人身攻擊我從來都沒有放棄為什麼呢院長如果我放棄了如果我放棄那等在我背後哭泣的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
651.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
662.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
因為他們把我視為唯一的希望跟這個代言人他們會因為絕望而崩潰院長請記得他們也是你的人民跟同胞 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
664.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
693.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
如果我們面對生育平權跟剛剛一開頭我談到的國家的國安問題小子化的問題我覺得待運法制化勢在必行去管理它用嚴謹的方式去管理它這個議題討論30年了國建署也有三次以上的民調也有完整的法案的版本絕對不是貿然倉促去做的事情好嗎就是請院長能夠跟部長能夠把這件事放在心上 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
694.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
716.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
謝謝委員 我認為天下的母親之所以偉大是因為她養育 教養一個小孩子所以這是母親的偉大委員 她是準備養孩子嘛她們願意養孩子嘛對 她生養 教養這個孩子所以認為任何一個女性都是以身為一個可以當作一個母親當作她最大的一個光榮我們認為這個是歷史自來 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
718.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
734.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那現在世界上有先進的例子我們可以參考那如果說因為身體的狀況有這種需要我們在法律上正在做積極的溝通那是委員的版本我想衛福部也有他基本的想法可以做溝通的 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
735.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
761.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
謝謝那院長這個1995年開辦的健保本來應該由政府編列的公共衛生跟政策性的支出那長年轉到健保去支應那有些專家就質疑說是政府刷卡納稅人買單2014年到2019年當中有大概將近1億元是狂犬病的疫苗還有超過10億的是腎臟病的這個衛教計畫還有超過百億的這個吸肝擴大治療計畫這些本來都不應該是健保來出錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
762.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
786.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
同時政府也沒有實質去提高公共衛生跟健保的公共投資比率甚至為了達標因為我們有個健保法規定政府應該負擔的比率前次的質詢我也有跟你提到36%但是他過去把多項福利政策都灌載這個統計造成民意上達標但實質上是減少的這個有點像制度性的掏空健保 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
787.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
804.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那30歲的健保因為現在面臨財務的節節困難所以我要向院長跟部長確認幾件事第一個行政院9月24號有公布預告修正全民健保法的施行性責他把受僱者的育嬰留庭的保費從36%剔除 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
806.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
822.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那就是等於說過去你就是這樣做嘛過去做法不當嘛所以你們還是要跟大家解釋為什麼你過去把這些灌水的這個這個金額跟時間的年度這個要講清楚過去把這個灌水在裡面院長你知道嗎謝謝委員這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
825.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
847.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我常常跟大國人這樣說過去30年所有的國人受到健保的保障我們的健康那現在是所有國人應該回頭來保障健保制度讓他能夠永續的時候了但剛剛委員所說的政府的逐年來有一些需要的支出那也是廣義賽在幫助也是針對國人健康所做的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
848.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
862.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
要公開讓我們知道你們的責任到底內容是什麼所以政府是持續的長年的一直在對健保做相關的挹注這是事實每年都有相關的而且剛剛提到的政府的36我們也在做調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
866.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
886.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
跟委員說明我們已經修正健保法施行細則把健保法裡面政府應負擔的36%的責任只以本法所律定的才算所以這樣政府就每年都多撥了134億給健保再加上其他的公務預算所以今年是181億 明年是199億 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
887.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
907.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那另外像剛剛提到這個委員特別關心吸肝的用藥其實吸肝的用藥我們也做過醫療科技評估它可以減少後面的健保的醫療費用所以它是一種治療對 它是治療的那這樣子補充保費我個人其實沒有反對但是某個程度有點成為雇主 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
908.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
930.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
僱主規避責任分攤的一個地帶途徑請問部長你有沒有考慮要檢討僱主端跟政府端的分攤機制畢竟專家有一個非常重要的提醒健保應該先解決廢機的公平性再來檢討廢率的合理性先廢機再廢率這樣子 院長您同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
932.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
959.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
跟委員說明其實在健保的整個財務上就如同您講的有費機跟費率所以我們這兩方面都是並進的一方面是把費機擴大他哪一些的這個費用能夠納入到健保的不等於是用心的但是就是在費機的合理上需要再來我們再來討論或了解最主要就是說把從過去以薪資所得為主的健保的保費的結構 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
960.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
973.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那麼要擴大到包含資本利得這個因應整個國家經濟的轉型來調整我們再來談困難科別的招收這是全球性的問題它不是只有薪資它還包括生活條件跟整個職業的職場環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
976.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1000.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我在看其他國家像蘇格蘭他們年輕醫師即便在偏鄉有良好的實習的訓練他還是不願意留下為什麼因為他的生活品質跟社區連結是不好的不夠的在愛沙尼亞他們家庭醫師嚴重高齡化年輕醫師寧可轉行也不願意接受低薪過勞的診所這是制度問題當年輕醫師他沒有辦法看到他職場的未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1002.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1021.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
這個時候也沒有生活品質所以他們怎麼願意選擇這些科呢那面對醫師分佈不均你要看的不是只有薪資而已加班費還有整個結構性的誘因所以困難科是不是要有留任獎金是不是要有夜間免稅制度最重要是健保要檢討給付的合理性有很多願意付出的醫師老實說 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1023.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1047.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
點值對他們來說是最直接的感受所以部長你現在多久更新一次未來這些特定科別 等一下會再講特定科別的點值是否能夠及時做一個更新好 跟委員報告這兩年因為這個在行政院的支持之下 我們的健保的總額的擴大是大家可以看得到 所以也帶動了點值的改變像今年的總額比去年增加了530億是達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1049.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1067.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這個快要進8%明年會不會再增加所以點子已經上來醫院的點子都已經超過0.95了那不過呢 科別是一個問題像您提到的因為少子女化的關係所以兒科呢他看到的市場就是越來越少所以我們明年會把這個兒科 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1069.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1090.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
因為現在年輕住院醫師選科的時候他優先會選我想院長也會知道整形科跟五官科因為生活品質比較好急重症科快滅科了這個有急重科醫師形容現在狀況不是挖東牆補西牆是整面牆都不見了很多外科醫師也抱怨他們救命的手術他點子不戴沒有提高還一直砍 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1092.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1112.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那他們說政府很重視集中症科但是他們卻看不到那如何取信呢所以這個你看圖上這個胸腔劑重症加護醫學院理事長陳玉明醫師表示他們要照顧這個加護病房照顧呼吸治療的等重症病房的病人但呼吸器的照顧支氣管進行檢查幾乎不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1112.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1131.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
年輕醫師看到工作這麼辛苦他們就不會想成為胸腔科醫師部長您上任之後跟財政部有共同提出醫師加班費免稅的問題醫界覺得這個幫助有限亞東醫院邱院長他也有建議說不如針對那些難尋人才的科別 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1132.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1155.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
提供假日跟夜間所得免稅因為診所的醫師假日可以休息醫院的醫師都必須24小時待命尤其是年輕的醫師要值夜班如果這個部分你有具體的回饋我覺得可能比較可以挽回這些缺乏的科別的人才難尋的問題院長你基本上你支持這樣的一個做法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1155.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1168.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
當然我們知道 就目前來看 比方說內外負額或是急中難寒這幾個都是比較缺乏醫生願意像過去這樣全心的投入我們也認為像這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1170.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1200.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
比較困難性或時間比較長去治療性的工作所以醫師本身醫師本身應該給予一個特別的不同工不同軸的基本概念您聽到兒科我就看您就請你看下一張圖那個兒科因為現在選擇兒科住院醫師很少訓練完後還願留在這科那更少當這個住院醫師減少那總醫師跟住院主治醫師他們要分擔的工作量就越大所以他們就也不要留下來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1200.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1214.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
這是一個惡性循環馬建院副產部主任說的台灣一年 現在每年尤其產科只剩下13萬個孩子那還是去年以20年前多相比產科的市場少了 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1215.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1229.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
只剩下三分之一他說但是這個高危險的個案多了兩倍對年輕人來說這個行業又苦又險又辛苦又危險他說他說的不是我說他笨蛋抬去那一顆 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1231.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1258.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
因為在過去基層開業不需要次專科資格所以醫師少了繼續進修的一個原動力進入次專科的訓練比率只剩下三分之二PGY第二年選兒科的越來越少再下去大概是屈指可數以成大醫院來說你看最上面右邊最上面那個圖成大醫院的小兒急診連續15年沒有年輕醫師加入零零15年少子化本來就夠嚴重了現在小朋友生病了沒有醫師能醫治 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1260.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1288.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
院長 這個很嚴重吧醫學中心都沒有這樣我們之前也談過對這種包括外科在內簡易的手術跟比較困難的手術如果幾乎點數都是相同的話那醫師難免有卻步院長 方法我們可以討論但是我還要再去提醒你說這些問題把這幾個特別的類科的醫師能夠做更獎勵性的希望他們留任或是進來這個行業領域當中是現在衛福部該做的工作他也繼續在進行了 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1289.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1313.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
跟委員講我們對兒科的這個振興是有一個整套的計畫從住院醫師的養成我們就有津貼給他每個月就是有一萬塊給他那麼小兒外科更高一個月可以到三萬那另外呢到了這個次專科或者是主治醫的時候我們現在來調整他的資物標準這幾年都調先從ICU急重症的先調 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1314.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1341.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
明年還有一個獨立的總額來保障但是我們不得不看結果啦看結果你再回去去想為什麼這麼努力沒有效果還是不好就是我的重點在這個地方謝謝 部長請回座院長您今年9月5號跟洪森漢部長去巨大機械參訪9月25號巨大就被美國指控說是強迫勞動發出這個戰扣令院長你知道原因嗎戰扣令的原因嗎 您知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1344.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1352.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那你認為美國的指控是真的嗎?是正確的嗎?勞動部應該有進一步的了解跟事實真相但是我們知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1353.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1372.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
包括這個案例在內確實有應該檢討的地方巨大被強迫勞動被指控強迫勞動有很多人來去仲介費一不只是巨大這個集團還有很多企業也存在這個現象像移工收取仲介費在台灣是允許的可是在國際上很多是不被允許的 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1373.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1402.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那我國允許仲介以服務費名義向每位移工每個月要收取1800元勞動部雖然說仲介是要服務才能收這個收費但是沒辦法查核嘛哪一個移工敢拒絕這筆費用呢那巨大現在已經決定他由公司來吸收這筆這個費用藉此向美方爭取說解除我的禁扣令但其他企業呢議員長移工領很少的薪水做台灣人比較不願意做的工作其實還要這樣剝削您覺得合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1402.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1428.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
所以我的意思是說 院長你有沒有考慮或是要求這個勞動部廢除修法廢除仲介費或服務費勞動部現在在擬定一個跨國勞力的一個方案其中有好多的項目其中有一部分我也希望他能夠減少仲介費仲介以後在這整個領域工作行業當中所扮演的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1428.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1437.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那是我們台灣汙名化的第一項 而且是事實院長 這個不要讓重建費成為台灣的企業進軍國際的最大阻力啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1438.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1458.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
好 請部長說明跟委員說明的確現在因為國際上面很關注強迫勞動的問題那我們其實也會在近期來提出一個針對強迫勞動相關的指引然後跟經濟部一起來合作來針對我們的廠商跟產業來做進一步的輔導那這部分我想我們會很積極的來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1459.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1481.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
因為我今天在這裡就說我也希望院長能夠支持你嘛你的一些困難院長同意支持你就要賣力去做啊這個仲介費存在已久了也被人汙名壞幾次了國務院所有人都是這樣講啊我們簽很多對這個協議貿易這個協定也都是卡在這裡啊因為這個如果你不把這件事處理掉我們的人民跟政府的付出很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1482.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1509.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
當然所以我們現在是很積極的在做包括指引跟輔導的事情我再來要請教院長一件事院長我女性勞工可以因為懷孕就被雇主解聘嗎?可以嗎?女性勞工可以因為懷孕就被雇主解聘嗎?不行當然不行那麼我們來看看為何這家鼎鼎有名的醫材大廠叫泰伯科技他可以在他人事的內部人事的規範管理規範明文規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1511.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1534.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
外籍同仁受雇期間在台結婚或懷孕必須受到懲罰解雇結婚或懷孕必須受到懲罰解雇甚至遣返這明顯違法這不是只是歧視懷孕還有泰伯科技的買工費跟打壓工業問題也很嚴重其實勞團多次向紅部長你陳情你都不理 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1535.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1550.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
跟文說明我們沒有不理我們已經很明確的當然希望這個公會來提供相關的事證那我們也已經這個因為他是寫在工作規則裡面所以我們已經請地方政府要積極的來查處了院長我們沒有不理 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1550.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1580.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
院長 你現在要不要下令 下令勞動部齁 積極徹查 開罰泰伯科技我給你這麼清楚的他們內部 要不開罰 院長我們已經請地方政府積極的查處了我想報告委員這件事情 部長一定比委員更積極因為那個照片是指著部長的你要自己要強力的說明我想部長依照現行的法規各項的要求我們應該是朝向部長剛剛講講的保障婦女在各種工作上平權的這個事情上我們不會落後的 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1581.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1608.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
謝謝院長 部長請回院長 第四天然氣接收站工程是包含在整個協和電廠更新改建計畫當中連環評也是一起做的對不對 院長照程序來進行是 他是如此就是包含在裡面那個四階跟協和電廠的環評爭議我先不贅述當時因為環評質疑這個協和電廠土地污染嚴重那事後環境部去進行檢測 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
1609.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
1634.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
證實喔 證實喔它是土地污染嚴重 非常嚴重然後基隆市政府 因為位在基隆也公告喔 協和電廠的土地是要污染控制的場址那我現在請教 請教院長請問在沒有完成整治之前它已經被確認 檢測確定然後也公告確定在沒有完成整治之前協和電廠可以進行任何更新改建工程嗎請院長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
1635.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
1658.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
程旭文我們已經討論過這是法律的問題啊對 部長有說明過 來你現在講有沒有違法 可以嗎現在他一定要整治完成才可以興建土無法嘛 土無法我們也看到經濟部的新聞稿寫著在整治完成後才會進行的新的燃氣機組的興建工程經濟部跟台電先依法完成整治因為還被確定是污染再來談開發 這樣子比較妥當對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
1664.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
1681.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
先完成整治 污染的整治 再來進行開發所以程序上在這樣進行啊不是程序 是法律法律也是依照 程序也是依照法律在走那如果台電在這個污染整治完成之前就開始進行招標 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
1683.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
1697.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
施行工程 帶頭違法那其他的這個其他的土地他被列為準制長職的業者土地都不能開發利用他們是傻瓜嗎民進黨你要允許台電這麼做嗎你可以允許台電這麼做嗎你要允許他們這麼做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
1698.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
1727.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
不是允不允許如果這個招標是違法的那當然不允許那事前還有一些準備的過程當中如果在法律上是可以他可以斟酌來辦理這個三接爆發的工程灌水百億幣案我也在追查但是我從三接的工程這個得標廠商叫黃昌營造的聲明才知道11月18號台電進行了協和電廠更新改建的這個招標四接工程的招開標雖然留標了但是這個招標 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
1728.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
1755.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
大有問題就像我剛剛講的這個地方被踢爆而且被證實是嚴重的環境污染然後他還沒有開始進行整治但是台電不是趕緊提出完整的徹底的污染整治計畫台電高層去施壓基隆市政府要求市政府接受一套很寬鬆的草率的敷衍的應變措施甚至急著辦招標他急著辦招標要天然氣接收工程 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
1756.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
1785.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
請問這是什麼國營事業啊台電在急什麼啊 院長不是台電急什麼這是國家重大的能源政策我想台電不至於去對一個地方市政府進行任何的施壓那台電今天所有的作為都依序必須要依法來辦你今天要覆辯對我的質詢政題喔協和電廠土地污染場地都還沒有做好污染的整治都沒有做好甚至連計畫都不提出來台電就急著把天然氣這個標案標出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
1785.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
1808.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那政府對於土地污染要先做這個整治然後再能進行開發這個承諾都是假的啊那院長你難道不對台電踩煞車嗎院長難道你不對台電這個錯誤行為踩煞車嗎台電的招標如果違反剛剛委員講的而且沒有提出合理的說明這個招標當然是違法不論它是不是流標這個招標就違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
1809.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
1828.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
他已經被宣布是污染長質他已經被公告是污染長質要去整治但是他都沒有做 計畫都沒有他已經開始直接招飆了他有沒有啟動污染整治的程序他如果已經啟動的話是不是在法律上有一些可以討論的空間在那我要請經濟部來跟問法律有討論的空間喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
1858.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
1859.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
好 謝謝陳昭志 |