| IVOD_ID |
16598 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16598 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-16 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-16T14:12:08+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-16T15:07:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:54:52 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b73ade72829c64ed9d3c58e6035bf089342724ebcd8e03004af80a8cb003b9bab39e3b572e36f8b85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-16T14:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會 第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員暨行政院國家發展基金管理會召集人劉鏡清率所屬單位就「行政院國家發展基金對105年起所投資之『直接投資組合中重要新興事業』之績效與管理」提出報告，並備質詢） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:12:08 - 15:07:00 |
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謝謝各位委員我們現在已足法定人數了那我們現在就開始開會那先介紹一下到場的委員林思敏委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1110.576 |
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1126.417 |
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陳玉珍委員蔡易瑜委員王逸川委員鍾嘉斌委員沈柏洋委員也很感謝我們今天列席行政官員國發會的主委劉靜清六主委請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1129.793 |
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1150.062 |
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立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會第四次全體委員會議事錄時間114年3月31日星期一下午25分至59分地點清新樓802會議室出席委員徐欣穎等11人請教委員3人列席官員國家發展委員會主任委員兼任行政院國家發展委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1151.082 |
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1178.18 |
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國家發展基金管理會召集人劉靜卿等主席黃昭紀委員國昌報告事項一 宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定二 邀請國家發展委員會主任委員暨行政院國家發展基金管理會召集人劉靜卿率所屬單位就國家發展基金投資如新股份有限公司及聯合再生有限公司之決策及監督管理作為提出報告委員鍾嘉賓 吳思瑤 蔡益渝 王一川等人提議今天報告事項主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1181.144 |
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1204.859 |
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主標題除去如新股份有限公司及聯合再生有限公司等字樣說明抵觸立法案職權行使法表決結果在場出席委員9人、贊成者4人、反對者5人、贊成者少數不予通過本次會議由委員徐欣雲、黃國昌提問決定一報告及提問結束二委員口頭提問時要求補充資料請主管機關以書面以兩週內提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1206.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1228.968 |
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民主提案第一案 決議 默劇文字修正為並於兩週內將回覆內容提供本委員會後通過第二案 決議 默劇文字修正為並於兩週內將回覆內容提供本委員會後通過第三案 決議 默劇文字修正為並於兩週內將調查結果提供本委員會後通過 散會宣言完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1231.151 |
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1255.06 |
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好謝謝 請問在場委員對上次會議思路有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處來那個會議詢問來請鍾嘉斌委員主席在場的委員先請教一下我們這次會議是不是秘密會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1256.667 |
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1262.938 |
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不是好那我們看一下這次的會議通知我們這次會議通知謝謝我們的議事人員我借一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1275.171 |
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1291.88 |
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我們這次的開會通知的事由是立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會第五次全體委員會議那麼有邀請到國家發展委員會主任委員暨行政院國家發展基金管理會召集人劉敬清率所屬單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1292.901 |
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1312.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
就行政院國家發展基金的105年所投資之直接投資組合中重要新興事業之績效與管理提出報告並被質詢所以呢首先我們先確認今天的會議不是秘密會議那今天的會議可以提出質詢請問主席是這樣子的嗎是好 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1313.782 |
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1329.394 |
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接下來我們就一個提問因為根據立法院職權刑事法第52條本文調查、調閱報告書及處理意見未提出前其調查人員、工作人員、專業人員、保管人員或 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1330.094 |
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1352.76 |
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查閱人員負有保密之義務我想這點上次主席也在會議當中也表示我們之前這次調查相關要調閱的文件都是在一個保密的情況下進行調閱我想再次請主席跟我們的會委員確定這點還是繼續落實是嗎我再跟總委員說明現在目前放在502裡面的會議資料總共有兩個類型 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1356.775 |
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1378.559 |
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一個是密件一個不是密件然後呢分開存放需要是密件的部分都裝在牛皮紙袋當中那不是密件的部分就按照各個公司放在會議桌的資料上好所以呢這些所謂的我們要調閱或調查的內容現在都妥慎的保管的很好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1379.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1393.548 |
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是 那有去調閱的委員都有留下大名我們也知道他看過了好 那我想請教一下那像這些被調閱的文件內容待會要備詢的國發會的代表他們看過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1395.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1414.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
資料是他們提供的他們應該看過吧因為這些我再說明一下所有的資料全部都是國發會跟國發基金提供的沒有不是他們提供的資料那既然是行政機關提出來的資料那我只能夠推定行政機關知道內容好 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1415.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1439.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以我們如果推定待會被尋的國發會的機關代表他們既然這些調閱的內容是他們所提供的那麼他們在被尋的時候在回應質詢的時候因為我們這裡寫不得負有保密之義務不得對調查調閱內容或處理情形予以介入今天既然不是一個秘密會議也就是說待會我們在質詢過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1440.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1468.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
如果被尋者他所要回覆的意見表達的內容就是現在陳列在被嚴格保管好不會有洩密之餘的那些文件內容那麼一旦待會的被尋官員引述了這些內容那麼在場聽到的人就負有保密之義務那是不是我們要先就現在的調查人員、工作人員、專業人員、保管人員、線上在場的人員進行一個保密義務的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1469.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1494.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為待會可能我們諮詢劉主委的時候問了那他說的內容就是那些資料的內容那些資料的內容在我們的調閱報告書還沒出來之前這些內容是不得對外揭露的那當然可以對本會委員揭露但是既然對本會委員揭露我們要諮詢嘛我們要知道這些內容是什麼有人看過有人沒看過沒看過的人問了主委主委就那些內容表達之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1494.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1511.674 |
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在場聽到的人就是屬於在我們第52條本文當中所指定的富有保密義務之人員那這樣的話那這個會議是不是主席要考慮為秘密會議現在您要直接提議要開秘密會議嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1513.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1538.567 |
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或者說我們 我現在看主席怎麼處理 詢問嘛先詢問說52條本文當中我跟與會的委員說明一下今天要處理的事項是我們針對於我們的國發會他所提出來的行政院國家發展基金對105年期所投資之直接投資組合中重要新興事業之績效與管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1539.761 |
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1567.426 |
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今天主委報告的內容是這一份那因此委員所提出來詢答的內容基本上就是以對這一份的內容看委員有沒有什麼寶貴的意見希望國發會主委能夠回應的那至於說我相信我們的行政官員對他們所附保密義務的範圍跟內容分寸應該都蠻清楚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1568.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1593.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以我個人是認為說既然是針對這份報告來提出那委員們也針對這份報告來追尋所以今天沒有開秘密會議的必要那我才剛剛在這樣子的一個基礎上才會請教鍾委員是不是您提議現在要改開秘密會議主席本席並沒有做這樣提議因為法條上啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1594.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1617.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
要改開秘密會議要有一定的構成要件這裡面的文本當中的要求是富有保密之義務啊也就是說今天在場的人所聽到的待會兒備詢機關代表包括劉主委他所說的他可能會引述在剛剛我們說的我們調查調閱的那些資料範圍的內容他可能會引述 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1617.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1640.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那這些資料內容雖然不是我們親自入場登記名字去看但是我們從主委的回應當中我們也看得到也看得到 也聽得到那我們就知道了原來我們調閱的資料內容根據主委答覆這些資料內容是哪些但是這哪些是屬於需要保守的秘密我們的條文上看不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1641.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1663.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所以我只能說是不是現場的人員應該要有一個登載知道哪些人在這個會議當中聽聞了這樣子屬於被保管不得在調查報告出爐之前不得對外接入或許我們不能夠阻止大家知道但是大家有義務在調查報告出來之前不能對外接入 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1664.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1685.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
對 大家可以聽啊 但是這裡只有說什麼條文的52條是說保密之一物啊 他不得在這個調查調閱報告未提出之前對這個事情對外接入嘛沒有說你不能知道啊 但是你不能接入啊那不能接入要知道哪些人知道 這些人有沒有對外接入 這是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1686.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1711.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
還沒到達秘密會議的要求但是因為文本上有這樣的一個提示所以想請主席才是要怎麼處理這個情況在場的人員我現在也不曉得哪些人有不認識的人那如果這些人今天聽聞了之後在我們最後的調查報告還沒有出來之前他對外揭露了他聽聞的這些應該要保密的有保密義務的內容那我們怎麼處理我再次的跟那個鍾委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1713.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
1728.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
今天國發會的處委所提出的書面報告是這一份那等一下委員針對這一份報告如果大家有問題可以提出來那我相信行政官員對他們守密義務的範圍他們應該非常的清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
1732.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
1742.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那因此今天針對這個報告所進行的詢答我是認為沒有什麼要去進行秘密會議或是另外去簽什麼保密義務這樣子的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
1745.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
1762.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
主席還是沒有理解問題我沒有說要開秘密會議因為目前我們開秘密會議沒有那個條件但是這裡面文本是說這些我們調查報告書還沒提出之前現在就是屬於調查報告書還沒提出之前未來調查報告書怎麼書寫我們也不清楚但是呢在還沒提出之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
1763.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
1783.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我們血裂的這些人他負有保密的義務他不得對什麼呢不得對調查調閱的內容就是放在那邊給大家調查調的內容或者說我們待會再討論之後國發會他的處理的一個方式處理這些內容沒有限制你不能知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
1784.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
1813.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我們委員怎麼可以限制我們不知道呢我們不知道怎麼問啦當然要知道啊但是知道之後不能對外揭露啊那不能對外揭露的話現在主席好像誤以為說只有這兩份報告不能對外揭露是這樣的意思嗎不是啊不是啊這兩份報告是可以的這兩這份報告這份報告呢不是目前我們調閱的內容或處理的情形是他不是好但是確定喔確定不是喔因為很多人都拿到了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
1815.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
1837.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
但是如果說剛剛你說的主席所說的您相信在場的公務員他們心中有一個分寸他們不會把職務上不應該對外講的對外講那現在麻煩來了待會我要是問主委問他什麼事情他說這個我要心中的分寸這個不能對外講委員要的話您去那個地方登記去那邊看那我今天我問什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
1838.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
1860.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
所以不能夠把所謂的對外是否負有保密的義務向前推進到答詢者的自我約制嘛他自己決定說啊這個東西呢是調查報告還沒有處理之前呢不能對外介入的所以委員你質詢我我也不能講那這樣子我們如何進行調查如何進行質詢呢所以很顯然的只要 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
1861.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
1890.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
被尋的人他基於我們的質詢的要求他所回覆的這些內容內容只要是涉及到原來被會議室被保管得很好必須是限制登記限約的那些內容那我們問的人 答的人 聽到的人就會有一個在最後的調閱報告還沒有出來之前不能對外揭露這不是一個容易也不是一個很困難的事情首先在場的人員喔 那還有一個問題啊現在這是有轉播的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
1892.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
1911.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那在有轉播的情況之下看到這個轉播的人他如何去保證他負有保密的義務所以我在還在強調主席所說的似乎要答詢的官員自己衡量你認為這個事情是有祕密性的你就不要對外講不只不要對外講連我們詢問的時候都不能講 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
1913.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
1939.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
所以我還是要請主席明確的告訴我這個條文當中所謂的保密之義務在調查報告未提出之前不得就內容或處理情形予以揭露這一點事情要怎麼去執行其實我剛剛已經兩次跟中委員做了說明了今天請主委報告的內容就如同會議的主題一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
1940.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
1953.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那他所提出來的書面報告也在這個地方那如果大家有看過這份書面報告的話就會發現並沒有涉及到什麼調查的結果或者是內容的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
1954.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
1975.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
單純的是針對一個非常中性的問題也就是針對目前直接投資組合從中央新興事業的績效與管理而這樣子的一個報告即使不是在今天的調查委員會在一般的委員會當中所提出來的報告也不會有產生任何的問題第二個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
1976.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1996.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
就針對有關於針對這個報告委員如果有槌尋所提出來的問題我相信主委以及其他列席的官員他們都是非常優秀的公務員心裡面當然會非常清楚的知道什麼是可以講什麼是不能夠講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1998.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2010.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以我才具體的問就是說現在大家有沒有建議要開秘密會議如果大家覺得有秘密會議的必要那我就必須要依照議事程序處理那如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2011.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2030.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
您也沒有要提議要開秘密會議的話那是不是就先請主委針對他所提出來的報告來進行報告那大家看委員針對他所提出來的報告有沒有要進一步垂詢的事項我們會議按照這樣的方式來進行好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2031.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2045.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
對不起主席您在迴避主席落實第52條的規定第52條是要求人家要有保密的義務但是你把它推給陳說如果委員沒有在這裡提出要進行秘密會議那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2046.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2074.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
就沒有秘密會議那沒有秘密會議至於大家有沒有遵守保密之義務就不在主席在主持會議當中落實52條的這樣的一個要求這是主席主持會議的要求主席要不要決定用改開秘密會議的方式來達到52條要求那如果你認為不需要是由你來做才是說本次會議不需要召開秘密會議但是大家必須遵守52條的保密之義務本來就是這樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2075.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2092.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
第二點 你要宣告啊 第二點不用宣告 你每一個立法委員 每一個行政官員都要守法 這還要特別宣告說在場的委員請大家要守法 行政官員請大家要守法 這不是很荒謬嗎沒有沒有 那是一個誤會了 它是說報告書 報告書不是現在的這個報告書報告書是未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2096.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2117.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
對啊 您說得很好 報告書就不是現在的這個報告書嘛但是我們不但對未來要書寫完成的報告書在提出之前不能對外揭露對於在這個報告書未提出來之前也不能對 你看後半段不得對調查調閱的內容或處理情形予以揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2118.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2132.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
現在還沒有一個報告書但是我們在進行質詢的時候就會再進行一個調查我們事實上就是要進行一個調查那我們要這個進行調查的內容跟處理的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2133.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2162.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
是不能夠在調查報告書出來之前予以揭露所以我們待會的質詢就是屬於一種調查的內容我們這裡面對於主委所提出的這個書面報告大家都看得到這是公開資料但是公開資料我們根據公開資料還有包括我們如果有委員去看那些必須登記名字才能看的資料之後我們對主委的詢問那就是一個我們調查的行使調查的內容這個行使調查的內容當然主委要據實以告 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2163.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2186.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
但是他據實以告的前提是告訴我們之後我們會做成一個最後的最後的一個報告處理報告這個處理報告還沒提出來之前你知悉了這些調查的內容的人你不能對外揭露所以我要說的說52條的本文當時也是由包括可能主席在內所擬具的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2187.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2214.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那現在這個條文要具體落實我們就需要能夠確保不是確保兩件事情第一個確保主委不會說出來他說的電容這些如果你沒有上去看那個資料的話你沒有去看我就不會告訴你是這樣嗎還是說他講了他告訴你了但是你在回詢質詢的過程當中你所得到的這樣的了解這就是我們調查的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2215.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2239.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我們的調查內容在場的人是不能夠在調查報告書出爐之前對外揭露文字上沒有說我們不能知道只說知道了你不能夠在調查報告書出爐之前予以揭露所以從現在開始我們所進行的對主委的質詢就是在履行52條的一種調查我們之前去 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2240.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2256.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
辦公室去那個會議室去看那些文件那是屬於調閱我們不管是對那個內容的調閱所得到的內容或者我們今天對主委質詢所進行的調查的內容都是屬於調查報告書出爐之前不得對外揭露就這樣而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2258.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2281.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我就問主席這要怎麼落實啊剛剛你問我也回答不好意思我在第三次跟各位委員做一下我在第三次跟各位委員做一下說明今天我們請主委來報告的主題是這一個沒有涉及到調閱的內容也沒有涉及到任何調查報告前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2282.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2304.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
的事情這個是一個非常的中性然後讓國發會可以說明一下他們針對投資組合當中的績效跟管理他們是怎麼在作業的這個在其他的任何委員會當中提出來我們一般檢官員報告的事項的主題大概就長的這個樣子這裡面沒有任何的機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2305.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2327.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
這裡面也沒有任何調閱的內容這裡面當然不牽涉到說未來我們接下來要產生調查報告實際上面所執行的內容所以我剛剛在中委員的詢問之下我說了作為會議的主席我認為今天報告這樣子的一個主題沒有進行秘密會議的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2328.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2339.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那至於說各個立法委員還有行政官員對於相關的法例大家都應該要遵守那沒有遵守相關的法例各自會有各自的法律效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2340.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2367.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
所以 總委員您是沒有要建議要進行秘密會議嗎那經由您善意的提醒那我相信今天的委員跟今天的官員大家就會針對這份報告來聽主委的報告那大家有問題可以針對這個報告來進行詢問所以我今天才會用公開會議的方式那而且也有直播讓大家可以共同來監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2369.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2385.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
好 謝謝主席那我可不可以請求我這樣手上有一個善意的提醒用書面文字表的善意提醒可不可以印發給在場的每一個人因為這個是根據我們立法院職權新法第52條所構成的一個保密之義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2386.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2401.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那我們要確定在場的每個人都看過如果能夠簽名更好確定你看過也知道沒有啦那個謝謝鍾委員的提醒立法院職權刑事法的規定我相信在場的每一個人這是您第六次說我相信手上就會有法條了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2402.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2418.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我不會請求印給大家可以啊好來 那先主席先停一下先印給大家確定大家都看過這個內容之後知道自己保密的義務之後那麼也踐請我們如果是不是就麻煩議事人員把總委員所要提供給大家參考的每一個人都要 包括旁邊議長也要 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2420.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2441.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
好 那莊委員可以了嗎我等到大家都拿到之後我當然主席可以繼續啦當然是繼續啦不是說會議詢問嘛那我希望說確定都拿到之後你也問了我也回答了確定都拿到之後我再來做一個確認好不好不好意思喔確認大家拿到你要提供的資料這件事情並不是本會會議進行的法定要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2443.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2450.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我已經非常客氣了你提供的資料要請議事人員幫你印我也請議事人員印了我今天並沒有要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2451.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2473.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
影響到我們會議進行或者確保會議是依法執行所以還是要確定一下那待會行政機關剛剛主席也宣告了因為行政機關必須遵守我們依法必須保守的祕密所以如果在質詢的過程當中如果您的回答在針對這個公開的報告書內容以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2474.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2490.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
你覺得是屬於那個被 我不知道什麼形容 那些被限約的資料在那個限約的資料當中 那你有不便就被限約的資料來進行答覆那請你們要很清楚的去拿捏這個分析 因為主席很相信大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2491.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2514.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
非常相信大家認為公務員都自然會守法會守密那至於守密的尺寸他讓大家自己去斟酌所以呢待會如果我們質詢內容問到這個書面報告的內容這個目前這個書面報告的內容答詢的人在回答的時候如果意識到你要答的內容可能是屬於限制閱讀那些資料那就要懇請委員上去限制閱讀的資料上去查閱 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2515.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2520.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我大概是跟主席做這個確認好 謝謝 謝謝莊嘉斌委員那請問上次的會議議事錄可不可以確認好 我們確認議事錄來 請議事委員宣讀報告事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2529.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2551.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
邀請國家發展委員會主任委員暨行政院國家發展基金管理會召集人劉敬欽率所屬單位藉由行政院國家發展基金對105年起所投資之直接投資組合中重要新興事業之績效與管理提出報告並備諮詢先轉筆好那我們現在呢是請劉主任委員上台報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2563.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2578.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
主席各位委員先進大家好今天應邀就行政院國發基金對105年起所投資之直投投資組合中重要信心事業之績效管理提出報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2579.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2598.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
國發基金自105年起所投資之直投組合的中央新興事業共計有37家截至113年12月31日止累積投資金額新台幣309.42億元已回收207.5億元此股的市值 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2605.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2609.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
目前有523.54億元投資獲利超過495.64元那這裡面跟各位報告有兩項無法統計的是第一個依照經濟部新創事業之規定經濟部新創事業的規定是 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2626.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2651.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
公司成立在8年以內資本額在1億以內或經常性流動員工於200人以內屬於新創事業那新創事業因為他有投資期有成長期擴張期在不同期間難以評估第二個是投資創投事業我們這裡面有投資到台山的基金因為台山基金在投資期是不會有任何的收益 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2652.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
2667.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
所以未來的收益是還有一些這兩個部分的不確定性再來是我們37家的投資事業裡面屬於上市櫃及新會公司有15家累計投資196.69億已經回收198.26億持股市值499.26億投資獲利約500.83億其中有9家獲利6家投資虧損 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
2682.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
2701.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那六家投資虧損的企業裡面我們會進一步去看它的營收的變動那其中有兩家在113年度已經有稅後盈餘四家還是呈現稅後虧損的部分那四家虧損的部分裡面我們進一步分析呢有兩家在113年稅後虧損較112年虧損減少那營運有所改善有兩家則虧損增加營運並沒有改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
2711.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
2731.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那另外在於未上市公司共有22家處於投資期跟輔進入處分階段之創投事業目前還無法評估那8家屬於新創屬於開發建置期或者是新產品研發階段或是在臨床試驗階段暫時無法評估其績效但是有7家 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
2735.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
2756.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
因為他有二次增資所以我們從這裡可以看出他的股票的變動那我們也把明細附在這個後面那每一家的明細都很清楚那我們目前這裡面累計投資29.57億以回收0.1億那以最近一次的增資跟美股淨值來看市值約在24.28億投資虧損約5.19億 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
2759.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
2772.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那其中三家投資獲利三家投資虧損三家投資獲利是台三投資KK Day以及逸傳科技那三家虧損的事業裡面有兩家最後盈餘改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
2774.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
2791.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那這個有一家最後因為變差有一家進入了破產程序那另外在東北是進入破產程序那本基金已經就公司負責人機經理人提出訴訟以維持公股的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
2792.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
2806.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那對於國發基金在直接投資事業的管理措施我們總共推出了九項的改變第一個是慎選投資標的我們希望把投資門這個公司治理門檻口碑調查以及市場趨勢三項納入我們的投資標的的 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
2810.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
2839.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
改善就是從我們叫做精進原來我們的同仁都是依照法令來走我們現在只是把我們的規範做得比較更完整那從過去的政策投資我們加了增加這三項再來是我們強化審議的品質那我們審議的品質裡面我們除了增加這個公司的發展前景跟轉型能力我們要審核他的轉型的組織的改變而不是原組織不變再來我們把投資門檻從原來的二分之一的 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
2841.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
2861.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
的這個同意我們提高到三分之二或四分之三決依據他的要求的這個投資的內容那我們優化整個投資協議書在投資協議書我們增加了投資合約的保障包括附買賠條款包括我們e-minus等撥款而不是一次撥款那以及要求我們取得一定比例的董事席次 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
2862.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
2878.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
再來同時我們修正我們投資管理事業的管理我們過去是完全以財報來看但是對於投資股市來講上市櫃公司其實應該以投資報酬來看而不是用這家公司的營收舉例而言我們過去投資藥華藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
2880.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
2899.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我們賺了46倍賺了46倍股價到800多但是我們過去僅以他的獲利來看因為股市的反映是反映這家公司的未來性結果我們只看他的營收我們就把這家公司列為這個高風險我們列為高風險然後追蹤戶其實不對因為他我們賺人的46% |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
2901.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
2915.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
對這家公司得到股市的這個這個極度的肯定那我們因此我依據我過去在產業的經驗我們重新做了一個調整希望把反映出我們真正投資的效益舉個例子KK Day |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
2916.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
2932.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
KK Day是台灣少見的獨角獸台灣少見的獨角獸一家新創公司已經規模到了700多人是亞洲數一數二的線上大概是數一數二的線上旅遊公司這樣的一個公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
2933.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
2957.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
因為在新創期它是虧損的結果我們過去的做法就是把它列為高風險的追蹤戶但是事實上在最近一次的增資從增資的價格來看我們投資獲利是67%增加了67%的獲利所以這一型的公司我們也把它列出來重新進行管理所以我們就會分成投資獲利跟未獲利然後是上市櫃有明顯的股價 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
2958.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
2981.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
新櫃的部分未上市的部分我們就以他的增值價沒有增值價我們看他的財務的移動的狀態有無改善所以透過這樣的方式會做到比較清楚的管理然後也比較容易找到有問題來要求公司進行改善再來我們建立了風險指標我們希望把我們的管理風險指標建立起來然後及早面對那這個風險指標有兩種一種來自於產業的風險一種來自於企業經營的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
2986.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3010.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
再來我們呢是再來我們就會定期檢討投資事業的這個管理情形那我們就有一個管理委員會定期來看然後呢來做做後續的發展再來同時我們透過董事會跟股東強化投入管理我們會對董事跟股東做強化性的教育希望協助那對於比較有問題的公司我們現在的股的 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3011.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3028.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我們官派董事我們就改以兩種背景的人為準第一種是律師背景舉個例子像我們在聯合再生我們已經換律師進去希望能夠比較能夠維護權益那有一些比較我們需要會計師的我們也希望把會計師放進去讓會計師來做這兩種比較能夠協助公知治理的這個角色來協助我們改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3036.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3065.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那我們現在正在爭取設立投後管理部門過去國發基金是由業務部門兼職做投後管理所以投後管理的力道是比較薄弱一點那我們現在重新申請了檢討了人力結構結果發現國發基金目前的基金規模已經相照我們前一次的人力的這個人力的規劃增加了19倍的規模相較於民間企業我們人均管理規模都超過了5倍以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3066.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3091.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
也就是說我們同仁的工作複合量包括加班都已經變得非常高了變得非常高了那所以呢我們也利用這個這次大院的這個調查以及這個監察院的要求我們呢去強化我們的管理投入管理部門那我們現在正在傾徵人力那另外在我們也精進我們的退場機制做適時的停損那我們最近我們得到黃委員的幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3093.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3113.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
重要的訊息那因為我們本身不具備主動調查能力我想國內也沒有哪一個單位我想吳委員在場應該很清楚國內沒有任何一個機構有能力做主動調查那我們得到了被動的訊息之後我們就會依據這個被動訊息採取必要的法律行動包括早上我有跟黃委員報告我們在爐心的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3114.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3127.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我們都很清楚的在依據任何的這個線索我們就會即時去處理那我們另外在之後我們這邊也也列強烈了我們進進前進進後的每一個部分的前後的改善請委員再參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3129.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3150.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
因為這個內容繁多我就不做贅述我們只是希望在既有的原來在我們原有的法定規定上面再做進行的更進一步的優化我們希望讓國發基金在管理上面能夠做到更加的完善當然沒有完善的那一天我們只會持續的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3151.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3177.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那國發基金將來也會依據我們這個持續這個設立的宗旨我們的宗旨還是希望協助產業轉型協助產業創新我們比較不是以獲利為目的的投資那否則的話呢整個國家都是以獲利為準的話其實有時候在產業的福祉上面總要有一個單位來付出那我們希望繼續成立做出這種付出的單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3178.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3192.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
但是我們也會依據委員們給我們的建議大院給我們的建議我們去持續的改善那增加我們的投資效益跟改善我們的這個投資結構跟管理那也希望能夠協助產業持續的發展跟精進那 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3195.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3217.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那我們也同時會強化公司治理我們希望這個公司治理的團隊得到人事總署核准行政院核定之後我們會即刻增加能力去優化我們的這個管理機制也就比較能夠協助我們進行退場的管理那適時的事故那提升我們的投資效益那以上報告謝謝各位委員的聆聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3221.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3245.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
好那個非常謝謝主委喔那請問在場的委員對於主委所提出來的報告有沒有要詢問的各位委員對主委所提出來的報告請問有沒有要詢問的都沒有人要問喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3254.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3268.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
大家對這個報告的內容都沒有要詢問的沒有嗎OK 好 請問各位委員有沒有臨時的提案可以齁 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3270.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3294.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
你有臨時提案沒有好那我們今天的主委的報告已經報告了完畢那各位委員也沒有臨時提案那我們今天的會議就到這邊結束謝謝大家 謝謝不會不會不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3303.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3305.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
響鐘 |