| IVOD_ID |
16597 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16597 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-35-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-16T08:31:36+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-16T11:20:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:48:24 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d9d3c58e6035bf0897aa87ef5e5fc7f974af80a8cb003b9ba152845374190d4945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：審查本院委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例部分條文修正草案」案。（僅詢答）） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:36 - 11:20:00 |
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1826.97 |
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1833.559 |
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報告委員會初期委員8人已足法定人數好現在開始開會請議事委員選讀上次會議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1835.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1858.063 |
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立法院第十一屆第三會期外交及國防委員會第七次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十四年四月十日星期四上午九十二分至十二時十分地點紅樓三零一會議室出席委員王定宇等十一人列席委員鍾嘉斌等十三人列席人員外交部部長林佳龍及所屬人員經濟部政務次長江文若 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1858.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1886.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
大陸委員會副主任委員沈友宗財政部常務次長謝玲媛國家發展委員會副主任委員高仙貴行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表顏慧欣中央銀行副總裁朱美麗主席黃昭吉委員人報告事項一 宣讀上次會議思路決定確定二 邀請外交部部長經濟部次長大陸委員會副主任委員財政部次長國家發展委員會副主任委員行政院經貿談判 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1888.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1916.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
辦公室副總談判代表中央銀行副總裁報告美國開啟全球貿易制裁及與中共競合下我外交經貿戰略布局及因應並被質詢外交部部長林佳龍經濟部政務次長姜文若報告委員王地宇等14人質詢均由外交部部長林佳龍政務次長陳明祺經濟部政務次長姜文若及行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表顏慧欣等即席答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1917.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1944.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及巡大結束二委員林益君所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報三委員所提書面及口頭質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請相關機關與二周內已書面答覆本會全體委員並附資本會委員另子弟請卸走期限者從其所定宣讀完畢好請問在場委員對上次會議一事物有如遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1945.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1964.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
沒有齁 那議事錄確定齁 那請議事員宣讀今天的報告跟討論事項討論事項 審查本院委員沈柏洋等17人領據陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例部分條文修正草案 謹詢答 宣讀完畢好 謝謝 那我們現在先介紹在場的委員 陳永康委員羅美玲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1969.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1993.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那我們接下來介紹與會的官員這個我們先從國防部部長顧立雄先生長務次長楊基榮中將全民防衛動員署署長李定忠中將總督察室總督察長張元勛中將參事石文榮中將政務辦公室主任陳道慧中將 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1999.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2026.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
政治作戰局副局長張維新少將軍備局局長李文祥中將主計局局長謝其仙中將軍醫局局長蔡建松中將戰略文化司司長黃文綺中將資源文化司司長藍靜婷女士法律事務司司長沈世偉中將 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2028.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2056.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
整合評估司司長苗慧芬女士國發採購事主任趙雅萍中將人事參謀次長室助理次長曾安國少將情報參謀次長室助理次長朱惠民少將作戰及計劃參謀次長室助理次長彭國周少將後勤參謀次長室助理次長林鄭中少將 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2059.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2068.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
通信電子資訊參謀次長是助理次長林齊輝少將訓練參謀次長是助理次長徐永祥少將陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義中將海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮中將空軍司令部參謀長李慶然中將後備指揮部參謀長薛淵全少將 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2089.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2114.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
憲兵指揮部參謀長呂正芳少將入軍後勤指揮部參謀長梁永坤少將自動電軍指揮部參謀長周文祥少將軍事情報局執行長鄧敦仁少將電訊發展室執行長林正偉少校國防大學教育長李承忠少將 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2117.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2142.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
國家中山科學研究院院長李士強中將今天因為有法案所以我們還有其他列席官員的名單國安局人事處林組長退府會退署副處的處長羅馬可內政部警政署保安組副組長王秉瑞法務部法治司司長謝志明 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2145.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2166.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
入委會法政處專門委員陳振興權敘部退輔司專門委員邱德明教育部學生事務與特殊教育司專門委員鄭文堯海洋委員會海巡署人事室專門委員鄭黃斌行政院人事行政總處給予福利處專門委員陳慧芬謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2169.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2180.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
好,接下來就要剪刀割刀了那就要起始成功好了,對不對?好我的剛剛那一張紙 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2204.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2220.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
本日會議審查本院委員沈伯陽等17人離聚陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例部分條文修正案的草案我們現在提案的委員做說明首先請沈伯陽委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2229.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2244.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
好 謝謝主席那我這邊簡單的來做這一個提案的說明那這個呢 那我簡短快速因為這一次的修正案大概有三個重點第一個就是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2245.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2264.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這個服役條例在1995年制定之後呢有關這個喪失勤領退休給予的規定他當時在這個維持這個內亂外患有期徒刑確定沒有宣告緩刑會喪失那個權利但國安法在2019年增訂了5-2明訂也一樣的東西以後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2265.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2291.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
2022年國安法全文修正的時候已經把全文移到第13條了內容都沒有改變但是當時國安法在修正的時候呢這個服役條例沒有跟著修訂所以今天第一件事情我覺得比較重要的就是希望把這個服役條例跟國安法對齊所以這個應該是比較沒有疑問的地方那如果是那麼簡單的話今天應該也不用詢答所以最主要還有另外兩個疑義希望今天大家一起來集思廣益 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2292.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2318.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第一個就是因為這是跟國安相關2020年有這個反滲透法的修正那是為了要防範境外勢力確保國家安全穩定等等之類的那這個喪屍的這個給予的規定裡面沒有反滲透法所以把反滲透法納進來這個部分應該是有其必要國安法那邊也沒有放那邊我有提出另外一個草案那今天我們放的是這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2320.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2336.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這個服役條例的這個部分那第三個呢第三個部分呢指的是這個暫停的部分因為現在可能會有一些追回困難所以這也是今天也希望大家集思廣益的一點就是呢目前來講我們是參著公務人員退休之前服役法第24條 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2338.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2352.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
還有政務人員退職撫恤條例第13條這兩個然後去增訂這個呢停止請領退休的這樣的一個規定但是還是有一個稍稍的不同就是我剛剛念的那一個公務人員退休這個之前這個撫恤第24跟政務人員的第13條呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2356.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2374.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
他們是有處罰就直接就停止了申請退休跟請領的權利那我個人覺得呢這一個的對財產權的侵害是稍微比較大一點所以我在這邊的做的方式呢只是規定以領取的暫停而已所以有稍稍的不同沒有到那麼嚴厲那再來就是說呢這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2375.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2396.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
明定這個軍官事關與領授的這個期間呢目前我放的就是在這個內亂外患尚未判決確定或者檢察官為不起訴還起訴處分也還沒有確定的那一段期間呢等等的其他還有像國安法國家疾病保護法跟勤工法這個我就不多說新法院判處有期徒刑以上還沒有確定的時候停止 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2397.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2417.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
他這個領受之權那如果都說是沒有被判的話呢就還會再補發那我有看到法務部這方面的意見認為說那個起算的時間可能還要再相著一下那還有一個是我還沒有放到草案那也希望今天可以在這一個大家集思廣益的期間確定的就是因為我們現在國安法第二條的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2419.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2438.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這個所謂的組織等等之類的其實在法院判的時候都很難成立所以我們會有很多的這些共諜案到最後是不只說輕判而已有些是根本沒有辦法判根本沒有辦法判像我們在以前兩岸條例九之三會有一些妨礙國家尊嚴什麼等等的行為我們在服役條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2439.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2466.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
在對於現在國安法的法規範不足的狀況之下因為除了喪屍跟暫停以外中間還有一個類型這個類型就是剝奪但只剝奪一部分那我們有沒有必要把現在法規範還不足的地方呢有一些他去做了一些妨礙國家尊嚴的行為但他並沒有符合現在國安法第二第三條也就是他們第八第九條的處罰規定的時候有沒有必要把它列在這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2467.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2481.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
暫停他一部分退休給予的方式我覺得這可以是今天討論的部分那我提案說明到此為止 謝謝我們後面請顧部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2492.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2511.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
主席 各位委員先進首先感謝各位委員對於國家安全政策及軍人忠誠義務的關心與指導請在此表達敬意為維護國家主權及自由民主現任秩序大院什麼樣委員等17人提案600公斤 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2513.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2536.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
軍官士官服役條例部分條文修正草案整體修法方向本部竟表贊同後續將依照將參照國家安全法等相關法令內容一併檢討修正本條例的對應條文那接續由本部職員規劃司司長藍靜婷女士就法案的內容及本部的嚴處意見的實施報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2546.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2567.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
主席 各位委員先進大院沈博洋委員等17人拟據《陸海空軍軍官事觀服役條例》以下稱本條例部分條文修正草案請報告如後一 委員提案內容沈博洋委員等17人為維護國家主權及自由民主憲政秩序原拟據本條例部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2568.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2591.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
明定军官是官犯内乱罪外患罪经判刑确定或犯国家安全法下称国安法陆海空军刑法下称军刑法违反效忠国家职责罪章国家机密保护法下称国安法国家情报工作法下称勤工法反渗透法治罪判处有期徒刑以上之刑确定者丧失领受退出给予之权利 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2593.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2610.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
修正內容第24條第一項增修訂軍官事關在現役期間不發退出給予的情形第一款明定犯內亂外患罪經判刑確定者第二款修訂犯國安法第七條第八條之罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2611.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2637.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
增定犯軍刑法違反效忠國家職責罪章反滲透法第三條至第七條之罪經判處有期徒刑以上之刑確定二 第二十五條第一項配合第二十四條著修文字三 第四十條增定軍官事關與領受退出給予期間停止其領受權利情形一 第一項第六款犯內亂或外患罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2638.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2667.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
所涉犯罪尚未判刑确定经检察官为不起诉或还起诉处分尚未确定或还起诉确定尚未期满二 第一项第七款犯国安法第七条第八条之罪或军刑法违反效忠国家职责罪章国民法第32条至第34条勤工法第30条至第31条反渗透法第3条至第7条之罪且经法院判处有期徒刑以上之刑尚未确定者 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2668.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2677.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
三 第三項第一項第六款第七款停止禮售原因消滅後未經法院判處有期徒刑以上之刑確定者發放機關因應相關規定補發退出給予 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2681.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2698.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
第41條增定軍官事關與領受退出給予期間及其遺族上司領受權利之情形第一項第二款明定因犯內亂外患罪經判刑確定第一項第三款犯國安法第七條第八條等罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2699.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2722.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
或軍刑法違反效忠國家職責罪章 國密法第32條至第34條 勤工法第30條至第31條 反滲透法第3條至第7條之罪 經判處有期徒刑以上之刑確定三 第一項第四款 因現役期間犯刑法堵職罪章 貪污自罪條例之罪 經判處徒刑而未宣告緩刑確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2724.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2739.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
4.第二項第三款,犯國安法第七條第八條之罪,或國密法第32條至第34條,反滲透法第三條至第七條之罪,經判處有期徒刑以上知情確定者,不得申請遺屬一次金或遺屬年金。 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2741.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2768.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
三、國防部意見大約沈伯陽等17位委員提案修正本條例部分條文就軍官、士官在現役或領受退出給予期間犯內亂、外患罪經判刑確定或犯國安法、軍刑法違反效忠國家職責罪章國密法、勤工法或反滲透法部分條文之罪經判處有期徒刑以上知情確定者列為喪屍、領受退出給予之要件整體修法方向本部盡表贊同 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2771.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2787.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
2.針對軍公教及公營機關構人員於現役現職或退伍、退休、退職後,觸犯特定罪名,經判刑確定,使喪失期勤領退伍、退休、退職及與之權利,以致領者應以實行犯罪時開始計算追繳。 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2789.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2806.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
本部宪政配合相关部会演绎朝向法院有罪判决时于确定判决前及先行暂停一定比例的推出给予日后若经判决无罪确定再行补发以避免四判刑确定后使办理停波追缴衍生执行困难 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2807.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2824.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
4.解语本部将参照国安法等相关法令修法内容一并检讨修正本条令对应条文尽速呈报行政院转送大院审议其有效遏制不法确保国家安全以上报告敬请各位委员先进参考指教谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2827.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2854.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
好 謝謝齁 那其餘機關的報告我們就直接採閱書面資料比較省時間齁那這個法務部的報告這一個這個就大家直接翻閱那再列入公報記錄那現在開始詢答今天本會委員6假2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘那我們10點半這個發言登記截止那如果有臨時提案呢請在10點半以前提出大概11點左右可以處理齁那現在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2866.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2867.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
你好 我們請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2878.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2902.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
部長最近台灣發生很多跟共諜相關的案件那其實從去年開始我們正式上任之後那我也不斷的針對安全核可的問題來去提醒我想請教一下吳釗燮國安會秘書長他擔任第一任國安會秘書長的時間點是在什麼時候那部長您擔任國安會秘書長的時間點是在什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2904.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2926.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我擔任國安會秘書長應該是在2020的520然後到2024的520所以在這段期間我們國家的安全核可的機制跟吳釗燮秘書長擔任秘書長第一任秘書長的時候的安全核可機制有沒有什麼變化還是大概是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2928.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2941.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
安全核可的機制在你擔任的時候跟吳釗燮擔任的時候那個時間點有沒有什麼變化那個時間點的變化有沒有把那個安全核可的機制有沒有做一些更新或者是加嚴類似這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2944.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2965.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
應該沒有在國安會的期間應該沒有什麼沒有嘛所以說大概從2016年到2024年的這段機制這段時間的機制大概跟過去大概是一樣那我自己是在2016年到2017年年中是在國安會認識那在這一年半中因為我被核可的密等是比較非這麼機敏性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2965.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2989.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那我大概是被核可大概安全背景審查大概做一次大概做一次一年半那但是就我所的我所知道的資訊安全核可裡面的一個揭秘層級是由國安會諮詢委員就是每一個國安會諮詢委員他自己的辦公室是由諮詢委員去來核可說這個是密等的接觸等級他可能是機密或者是普通或者是極機密等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2990.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3005.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那國安會祕書長他應該也有這樣子的機制在他的辦公室裡面那我這樣問的原因是因為我不針對人我們也不針對個案我們針對機制我也不想說誰要因為我覺得再講下去也沒有什麼意義但是機制我們必須要做一個查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3006.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3022.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
媒體的眾多媒體的報導我相信他們也都經過證實就是這位核心的前助理他在八年只有一次的查核可是在八年一次的查核當中他已經經歷過國安會跟外交部甚至是其他的重要的機關跟委員稍微說明一下他並沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3024.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3034.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我並不知道他在之前有沒有在國安會但是我在國安會的時間他並不在國安會沒有我沒有在講這件事情我沒有在說你要負這個責任所以我現在講機制喔部長你先不用那麼緊張我沒有要今天不討論人我們討論機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3039.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3068.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我不知道你2020年2024年這之間他在不在這不是重點重點是說他這一位這一位核心前助理他經歷過國安會他經歷過外交部可是在這八年他只有經過一次的查核像這樣子的他有可能未來我不知道假設這是沒有在這個調查局沒有把他調查到的話那他可能經歷的部會會很多種那理論上來講經過一定的時間點他揭秘當然層級一定會慢慢的上升嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3068.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3093.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
他這麼長年的在國安會也好或者是在外交部也好怎麼會只有一次安全查核我想請教一下部長在您旁邊的這些機要跟信任的幕僚人員是不是也會有固定的時間查核還是也是之前的機制八年來有可能只查核一次在國安部的部分我們查核的部分期限是三年查核的有效期限是三年所以每三年要查核一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3093.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3109.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那上次我們在質詢部長的時候部長有提到說未來重複的核可更加的把頻率增高來因應共體的威脅是有可能的部長有沒有考慮未來因應這麼多的國家安全案件來去增加他安全核可的頻率 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3111.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3134.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我們是這樣子,我們在2月13號已經訂辦了一個國軍生命人員安全調查的作業規定它這個主要的就是說涉及到絕對機密跟密集有不同的查核的深度一般來講就是說像你可能絕對你要碰到絕對機密我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3135.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3143.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
整個查核對他期間要長達七年都要進行一個查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3144.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3172.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我覺得對他的查核是有在他的七年之內的這個期間之內來進行一個比較深度的查核這樣子所以頻率的意思是頻率的話原則上還是有三年但如果他有發生的這個揭秘等級要提升那麼或者職務異動或者要晉升或者要將派任這個專案派護專案任務的話呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3173.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3202.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我們會再進行謝謝部長我再強調一次當初我們在質詢的時候部長就有提到說重點是他接觸的機密而不是他的職位的高低OK我們理解但是包含這位核心助理也好或者是我們最近蠻多起的共諜案件他們的接觸的機密就是說在他們被核可比方說我當初可能是被核可為接觸的密等只有普通或者是機密但是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3203.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3220.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
確實在這個國安會秘書長室所以他你可能把他合格為他接觸的機密是只有機密但是其實他甚至可以接觸到最高機密這就是我所擔心的部分這個機制有沒有辦法來去做一個看有沒有什麼樣更新的方式就我所知因為我現在已經不在國安會了 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3221.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3246.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
我想我只能夠說就我在國安會的期間之內確實比如說我在擔任國安會秘書長的時候就誰會接觸什麼樣的密等那都要經過我們的一個他會呈上來然後我們會來勾選他接觸的一個機密的範圍這樣是對所以說秘書長我說這個部長或者是說秘書長他們是來自己再去做核可的 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3247.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3268.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
他自己來去勾選的對,在國安會的時期,但是在國安部的話,那就是由我們的軍事安全總隊來負責對,我的意思是說我希望有一個機制,而不是以個人來決定說這一個人他大概就是普通所以我們在國安部的部分,我剛如同委員所講的就是說我們現在要仿美軍的做法,就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3269.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3291.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我因為一方面去年做了一個全面的查核之外,我們今年就揭秘的這個等級的部分做不同深度的查核那剛剛也提到了,原則上是三年,但如果他揭秘的這個等級提升,或者有植物異動等等的這些狀況的時候我們還要再進行查核,大概在國安部的部分是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3292.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3319.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
好 非常感謝我希望這些機制能夠被導入到我們最高的國家安全的相關機關而不是以人來直接去進行勾選可能為了審視為了要偏移形勢他直接把他的機密等級直接勾選普通或者是機密而已但是其實上他可能會接觸到的東西是更加的機密性或者是他與首長的關係是更加的機密性委員的意見我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3321.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3327.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我們國安部的已經就我們國安部所在進行的這個部分我想我們再跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3328.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3357.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
其他的國安攤...謝謝,謝謝部長,我希望好的,你們如果有一個比較好的方案的話請記得跟其他的國家的單位來去分享再來針對造船的部分那最近美方針對造船其實是有造船總局等等這些相關的方案都出現就是針對對中共的他們造船能力之大他們已經開始非常警惕要確保美國的海軍有足夠的船艦的能量他甚至有定額是300多艘嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3357.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3381.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那現在來看的話造船的這個根據CSIS的這個圖就是中國的造船人力大概是全國全球的53%那接下來就是韓國跟日本那我們台灣作為一個盟友我們也是海洋國家不知道有沒有什麼樣的可能性可以跟美方合作在造船或者是修復船隻的這些能力上面不知道部長有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3385.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3387.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我並不覺得我們適宜在公開的場合來討論這樣的一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3399.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3427.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我們會後再跟委員能不能做報告部長這個是策略型的甚至是宣誓型的我不是說你要到幾哨是說你懂我意思嗎因為這個包含日本已經有許多的這個日本的工業大學東京東工大還有東京大學的教授都不斷的強調說日本要主動積極的作為提案方加強跟美方在造船業上面的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3428.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3451.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那我們台灣有沒有這個意向或者是這種能力我只能回答說我們有這個意向那很好非常好我希望我們有這個意向因為這是一個包含供應鏈也好我們的能力要把它總和起來這樣才可以跟美日韓菲律賓我們第一寶鏈的這些國家才能夠有一個更完整的合作方向謝謝謝謝趙委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3454.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3456.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
好 謝謝關天 謝謝部長那接下來有請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請郭部長有請部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3476.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3492.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
是 委員好部長好 部長面對這個境外勢力的滲透我們可以說是這個無孔不入五花八門就連這個辦共諜案的這個憲兵隊呢也都失守了那面對這麼嚴重的這個國安問題所以相關的法令我們必須要重新的來做檢視重新的來做檢討所以這次我們沈伯陽委員才會提出了這個陸海空軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3504.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3526.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這個服役條例的這一個修法那當然內容剛剛部長您在國防部在做報告的時候有講得非常的清楚就是明定這個軍官士官如果犯這個內亂對外患罪經這個判刑確定的話就是有這個有期徒刑以上的這個罰則還有這個喪失領受這個退出給予的這個權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3533.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3541.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那其實剛剛那個我們沈伯陽委員有提到就是說其實有很多國安的法其實都是要這個起頭來做處理不單單是這個陸海空軍的這個服役條例要做修正像過去我們這個從去年開始我們沈伯陽召委呢就不斷的提出這個修正這一個我們這個兩岸人民條例的第九條 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3559.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3585.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那我本來想說今天陸委會會派至少副主委會來就沒有現在是現在因為這個兩岸人民條例的組織還是在陸委會可是因為這是跟國安有關係的這個法律所以我在這邊還是要提出來像這個沈博洋召委他從去年到現在提了這麼多次而且還有很多委員都提出來就是把這個民意代表像立法委員議員他甚至昨天召委還提出說連國會助理到中國去都也應要來報備 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3589.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3617.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那當然不是禁止他們去 而是要去做這個報備可是呢 到去年到現在已經被在這個我們的程序委員會被阻擋了這個三百多次我不曉得說作為這個國防部也是屬於國安單位之一面對這樣子的這個被惡意的阻擋不曉得我們這樣子我們這樣子的話對國安來講是不是一個很大的漏洞因為目前這滲透真的是非常非常的嚴重可是我們相關的法令卻是不斷的被阻擋請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3618.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3641.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
部長您這邊的看法呢我想光部我們就光部本身來做應答可能比較世界一點那現在在您呈現的那個我跟委員報告就是說93條的這個部分這個是另外一條這個是這個邱志維委員之前也有提出來我再補充一點好了因為你直接要進入到這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3642.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3669.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那我剛才提的是沈博洋委員所提出來的就是說民意代表或是這國會助理都應該到中國去其實就是還是要報備這部分那像去年的話像邱志維委員因為這兩個像這個兩個法案一我都是連署人所以我們當然會非常的關心像這邱志維委員去年也是針對的第九條之三跟第九十一條其實也有做出了一些修法可是呢還是被擋 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3669.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3689.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
到目前為止 我知道都還沒有辦法在委員會裡面來排審 好像說有被赴議那現在就是說 好像我們這個兩個人民條例裡面有提到就是說曾經在擔任過國防外交或大陸事務或是國安相關機關的政務副首長或少將以上的人員他才會被規範嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3690.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3703.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
可是我們現在看到的很多的例子就是說其實到大陸去然後被滲透的不是只有少將以上像這個少校像去年所發生例子前海軍艦長退役的這個少校呂詩麗她在中國參加這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3709.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3726.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
珠海的這個航展的時候他就提到就讚嘆這個解放軍的這個武裝然後揚言要讓台灣的觀眾說哇我們中國有多強如果他是少將的話他就受到兩岸人民條例第九條之三的規範可是因為他是少校到目前為止是無法可管的嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3728.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3750.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
跟委員報告就是說九之三條的這個部分那麼現在我們部會之間的分工是由就九之三條的部分是陸委會來主責我們國防部會協同參與我們提出的意見那我們提出的意見就是說凡是在領月退縫的這個部分因為還是在領 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3751.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3773.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
越退縫的這個期間我們認為可以以這個還有越退縫的這個要件把它修改進去但是現在因為主則的部分是陸委會所以最後應該是跨部會還要再做個協調就93條的這個部分那陸委會現在也正在跟我們在討論當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3774.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3792.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
所以說我們的相關的單位針對九之三其實已經進入到討論的階段了對不對就是這樣子因為剛剛我們照理有提到說其實很多的國安的這個法令其實都是重新要做檢討我們要重新來做齊頭式的這個修正所以我們現在所看到說去年 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3792.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3806.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
去年就已經提出來了所以事隔半年了我們還沒有看到就是說或許有怎麼樣的一個排審那目前面對國內的局勢說實在是非常的險峻我們可以看到說從總統府到地方等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3808.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3831.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這個中共的這個滲透是非常的這個恐怖滲透的這個讓我們難以想像像這個時候我們不來修國安法什麼時候再來修這個國安法那過去呢在野黨一再的這個阻擋甚至呢有在野的委員甚至還要取消這個吳斯懷條款讓我們覺得很不可思議目前國家如此的這個嚴峻居然還有在野黨委員提出就是說還要再放 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3833.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3854.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我覺得這個部分呢這個是沒有辦法讓人家接受所以我們也希望說各個國安單位應該就是要皮繃得比較緊所有的國安的法條都應該拿出來重新做一個檢討那哪一個法該原的該怎麼樣處理的就怎麼處理不然的話說實在的這些人跑到中國中國去而且都是退役的這個軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3856.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3882.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
或者是他們都還領有國家的這個興奉居然還去讚揚對方解放軍的這個武裝真的是讓人家覺得不可思議所以這部分的話我們不得不嚴厲來看待這件事情那再來還有一點我們看到就是說今年我們二月的時候我們海軍有傳出就是說有志願役的這個士兵在不知情的職下被他的母親辦理中國的身份證的這個事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3883.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3902.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那國防部呢說要來做全面的這個盤查我想了解一下目前的進度我們到今天這個3月20號給我的相關的一個數據就是說我們現在清查的結果呢是應該是他現在有 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3903.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3926.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
有分成護照、身份證、定居證跟居住證那現在查到的話是大概都是屬於居住證居住證居住證居住證居住證還不到沒有定居證跟身份證或護照的狀況就是屬於居住證的證那多少人呢目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3928.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3953.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
如果志願役跟一年期義務加四個月軍事訓練役加起來的話在3月20號的數據是62位有到62位是目前他們在服役的單位是在哪些單位現在就是說這個服役期間的話原則上就是說不可以分花做情報蒐集資訊通信航空飛行艦艇跟研發類的這個單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3955.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3977.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那也不擔任這個新式武器的裝備操作所或者主觀的水源跟從事戰情中心參謀業務或者其他這些機敏職務或工作這樣那這62位原先都不在你剛剛部長所提到的這些單位嗎還是他本來是在這些單位我們有做調整目前我們的處置是怎麼樣的一個處置方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3978.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3996.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
您是說原來不在原來這62人他們所屬的這個單位本來就不在基民的一些單位裡面嗎沒有因為我們志願役的部分呢實際上只有兩位志願役是兩位是因為義務役的部分跟軍事信任役的部分按照兩岸條例的規定的話他 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3997.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4025.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
不管如何他都還是會有還是不能免其義務因為他還是具有中華民國的國籍再來我們之前有提到就是說在服役的時候我們要來開始實施不具雙重國籍的切解措施這部分什麼時候要來做實施您是說雙重的對雙重國籍這個部分雙重國籍的部分資源域的部分是不是我們要來實施這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4026.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4040.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我們也一樣就是如同剛剛報告的就是說他從這個二月以來要有一個簽訂一個切結嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4043.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4067.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
所以這個其實已經在實施了嗎?對對對,已經全面清查非常感謝,因為今天時間的關係,那質詢就到這裡面對國家未來這麼嚴重的滲透的情況,我想各個國安單位都是要嚴正以待好,以上謝謝好,謝謝謝謝美琳委員,謝謝部長那接下來有請陳俊宇委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4083.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4107.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
謝謝主席,我們有請顧部長有請部長,謝謝部長早陳委員早部長,面對中共滲透的挑戰,日趨嚴重我們反滲透的相關工作就更顯得重要我想根據國安局的報告資料當中,在2020年 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4110.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4136.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
到今天累計我們有159個人涉入這個共諜案的遭起訴那其中退役的軍人大概95人佔這個比例60%那對於這個部分我想就叫我們部長我們國防部的相關分析報告近期內中共對於我們國軍的這種滲透的樣態還有對象接觸的模式有沒有什麼樣的一個改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4137.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4159.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我想是不是先請說個說明委員好 我是政產局副局長 跟委員做個報告在過去來講 中共對我們的滲透方式往往是以災務所謂的地下錢莊來做一個著陸為重點但是今年以來 透過黑道幫派 也透過公務要組織 民間社團所以它今年特別比較多元化 大概是這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4162.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4185.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
他現在滲透的對象也不限是以往都是以軍官或是高階或是一般的軍官為主那現在一般的士兵好像也都是滲透的一個重點對象所以我想說對於我們這個監察院所提出的部分我們在上週的時候部長您曾接受這個採訪對於共諜滲透的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4189.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4202.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
是無所不在因為國軍在這個保防教育的這個相關的功效我們有87%的共諜案是由這個官兵主動檢舉來查獲的 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4205.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4233.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
我們國軍整體的這個保防人力編制雖然是每年有在逐年這個調整但整體這個保防的線源不僅未能達到編制的緣額反而這個編線的比率逐年在下降那我想請教就是目前我們國軍各單位的這個保防人力是否充足那有沒有穩定編線的這個比率有無再提升的這個需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4234.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4258.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
跟委員報告,我在今年的1月1號已經核定新增保防人力54位足夠嗎?那現在的,我想我們會陸續來招募這樣子的相關的這些保防的幹部跟保防所需要的這個能力還是不足? |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4259.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4285.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我們希望逐步的來提高到我們應該要到達的一個所需要的能力的一個程度那我獲得的訊息應該是說我們應該可以逐步的增加當中好,那我們這個保防工作也是非常重要那為了避免受到外界的一個干預我們是不是應該要維持它的獨立性來提升我們保防的這個效能 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4287.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4307.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
隱蔽性獨立性獨立性是保防人員一向具有他相關的獨立性如果您實際操作面上看起來他真的相當獨立因為他很多事情都是要直接跟我做個報告直接對我做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4308.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4325.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
好,那我們這個保防教育的相關業務,是結合我們單位任務的一個特性參與我們國軍這個保密工作的教則來做相關的一個規範,那也是有計畫有重點的在做宣傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4327.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4343.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
並且結合我們每週的舉光日的教學,還有每月的保防教育,還有每季的軍事官團教育來做宣教那目前辦理相關講座或是訓練的密度,是否有精進的空間? |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4345.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4372.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
呃我們有有應該是已經強化了有關呃相關的一些呃這些教育班隊的一個密度了這個詳細的是不是說明一下好跟委員做報告針對專家學者的講座在今年我們也針對中將級主管以上的單位我們呃由各單位我們建訓他的一個人選針對有兩岸情形研究一個專長以及向調查局他本身辦國安案件相關的一個專長的 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4373.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4394.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
一些高階主管來進行授課那另外中將級以上中將級以上主管不是中將級以上的人員就是這個單位是中將級主管的單位我們就來做一個順利的講座另外我們也結合我們舉官隊的定義教學邀請我們的兩位的戰略顧問以及檢察總長來針對國安的滲透以及對國家的忠誠 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4399.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4428.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
來做一個我們作為做一個那個舉光日的一個宣導教育好另外我的瞭解是他們自己本身也要建立的他們這個相關的能量所以也開設了一些班隊包括這個偵房的專精班情搜的專精班網路的這個情搜班等等還有搶綜合的技術的專精班等等這些我想大家都正在努力的建在進行當中好是 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4428.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4452.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我們這個部分單位比較容易接受到這個機敏的相關資訊若能夠有一個比較完善讓內部人員的這個安全查核的這個機制能夠更加完善建立分級管制的一個標準我相信是能夠減少一些漏洞在此也請我們國防部還有國安單位能夠通力合作一起來防範 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4454.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4475.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
另外在上個月巡打的時候曾請教過部長吳仁基是否可以納入教召的一個項目部長您也表示說應該要納入會以朝向人人都會操作的目標來運行但是在近日的一篇媒體的報導當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4478.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4499.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
指出目前我們在部隊當中無論是器材或是師資都是不足的情況那我想請教部長就是對於我們師資的培訓還有訓練的量能否再改善進一步來提升通過訓練的一個比例我們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4501.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4530.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
委員好 我是權動署署長在這裡跟委員做個報告首先就師資培訓的部分我以我們14個縣市後備旅來講我們今年度開始就在做師資培訓的部分到目前為止我們依照提供的教育訓練流程我們分成18個梯次分別要建立850元的一個無人機操作的師資總人 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4531.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4559.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那在裝備的部分17個縣市後備旅來講的話我們在今年7月份分成兩梯次來獲得是小型的兼徵型的無人機上半年會獲得425架年底之前會獲得425架總共會有850架的無人機那在獅子種人以及營區裡面的訓練場地以及這個裝備的部分我們目前都在同步的建置 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4560.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4585.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
以上報告所以就是要到年底的時候才有辦法把設備都準備齊全可是師資方面因為我們現在志願役的部分他學了一個月就要教新兵那自然是無法教得很透徹只能傳授基本的一些基礎那對於這個部分我想師資的部分你設備齊全了師資不夠的話也不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4586.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4611.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
報委員 我就有兩個部分向您報告第一個 我們在今年的151的入伍訓練已經新增加了一個無人機的基礎操作的課程那在這個部分的師資也都經由我們的無人機訓練中心完成相關的師資培訓我們也實際上到各接訓的單位去輔導檢視在入伍接訓的部分師資是足夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4611.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4633.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那另外第二個部分在常備部隊有關於我們的無人機建制那不管是商售或是軍售的無人機建制我們整個都是含裝備帶訓練所以這個部分在施肢也不會有問題 向您報告好 那我想另外就教就是說我們有沒有可能可以跟這個民間來合作借重民間的這個專長在這方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4638.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4666.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
不管是在訓練或是未來我們所培訓的相關課程由民間來協助我們有沒有可能有我們現在有在進行是詳細的我們現在目前有跟民航局在做借機相關的無人機然後基礎的訓練我們在陸軍的南側無人機訓練指揮部裡面會來做基礎培育那屬於中高階的部分我們會進入到民航局來做相關考證的措施以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4667.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4686.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
好,那我們相關的這個政策目標,務必要掌握到基層官兵執行的一個狀況即時進行來做這個調整,對於這個後備軍人的專長還有任務編組我們這部分也要請我們國防部持續來精進,讓我們所有教召的這個效益可以提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4686.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4703.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那我最後再請教一個問題就是我們漢光演習的部分以往都是五天四夜那近期內我們調整為十天九夜比以往的這個騎乘整整多出一倍那在這個實兵這個教召的 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4704.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4707.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
人員大概有兩萬的後備軍人參與演習將整個演習的過程裡面我們有全程戰鬥從事十二大戰訓的任務來驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4720.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4738.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那我想就教就是說在這個部分我們漢光演習我們人員增加然後時間增加的情況之下我們所動員的相關的裝備是否能夠因應大規模的這種動員的情況的人數可以支應我們既然能夠招訊我們這相關的裝備當然都要齊備這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4744.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4761.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
委員好 後備指揮部參謀長報告那我們現在針對有關教育召集所有的專備都是有配合的人數然後來實施籌補然後也有都能夠充足因應所以我們人員增加然後天數增加都沒問題都沒問題 都沒問題好 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4763.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4771.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那另外就是我們現行的一個規定,接受新制14天的一個叫召者他的日資數額為,這個軍官是1350 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4779.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4801.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
1350元那士官是1250元士兵是1050元那我想鑑於這個漢光演習的任務特性以及演習的時間拉長的因素是否我們對於漢光演習的這個教召人員額外研擬日資數額可以增加的可能性有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4806.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4828.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
法委員我想跟委員做個報告您剛剛所報告的是屬於義務役的那在當初規劃的時候他就已經有加成在比加成在裡面那自願役的話他是依照他時間的他實際退伍的階級然後按照日薪來予以支付的 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4828.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4855.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
所以這一段所以已經加成了對 是 之前已經加了1.5倍應該是有加了1.5倍好那自願意退如果是屬於自願意退伍然後被招回來的那就是按照他退伍實際的這個日薪來計算這樣好 以上謝謝部長 謝謝我們參謀長好 謝謝俊宇 謝謝部長那接下來有請林柱英委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4871.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4874.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
謝謝主席主席有請我們顧部長有請顧部長 謝謝林委員好部長好部長我想今天其實修法真的是召委選在這個時候來討論陸海空軍事官服役條例的修正草案真的是正是時候啦我想面對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4896.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4922.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
共軍或者是共諜不斷的透過軍中來做滲透我在過去的質詢當中也曾經關心過包括這個退役的這些軍官們他們的退休金的問題追回的問題其實我也都一直在追吹撫惠這個方面的部分那麼其實今天的修法剛好其實讓外界可以更關心那就是我認為中國或者是所謂的威權國家步步逼近的情況底下 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4922.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4946.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
其實對於我們來說真的是一個蠻大的壓力喔那麼現在中國滲透我們的樣態非常多一個最新的當然就是士林憲兵自拍投降影片然後還有就是第一階的軍官遭到了這些所謂的用關鍵的技術來換取情資等等這些部分跟樣態PTT怎麼回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4947.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4967.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那麼過去呢其實我也主張就是要把他們的退休金收回那麼不只是今天的修法甚至於如果判國我要加重刑罰所以本席過去一直非常強調的就是軍人必須是國家的軍人不只是在軍中甚至於在他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4967.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4972.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
私底下的所作所為都非常的重要這個也是之前當我接到翠友講到說我們的空軍的副參謀長是不是在所謂的群組當中的發言不符合需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4983.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5004.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那麼我也看到了空軍跟國防部的相關的說法這個部分其實都證明了其實只要國軍不論是檯面上或私底下都非常的重要喔那麼部長我來請問你一下就是有關於在修法加重判國的部分其實還有另外一個我提出來的陸海空軍刑罰部分條例的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5005.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5022.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
其實不是只有他們的退休縫應該移除甚至於所謂的預備犯或預備投降的作為是不是你也考慮要把他修法進來因為就像我剛剛所講到的這些樣態比如說他拍投降的影片又或者是他因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5024.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5038.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
本身有經濟上的困難所以說他去交換了這些所謂相關的情資那麼除了今天的修法之外接下來如果有預備投降的行為是不是也應該要補破網來修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5039.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5067.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
跟委員報告,我們現在在行政院審議當中的這個《陸海公軍刑法》24條它除了加一項就是對這個敵人為投降的這樣子效忠的這樣子的一個表示的時候就本身就會構成違反《陸海公軍刑法》那另外投敵的部分我們加了陰謀犯跟預備犯的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5067.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5087.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那現在已經在行政院審議當中好所以言下之意這個行政院在審議當中的話那就表示有沒有可能在這個會期可以加進來因為本席認為目前我們包括今天要討論的法案再到後續的它其實需要一個完備跟整備那麼這個部分您在期程上面您認為這個會期可能嗎還是說要到下個會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5093.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5108.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
行政院我們當然是希望列入優先法案國安部的立場是希望列入優先法案所以行政院如果審議完畢之後我們當然希望儘快提出來好我們其實在這裡的話我相信本委員會的委員會希望能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5110.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5138.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這個法案能夠緊速放進來討論另外第二個就是有關於無人機的部分我想在過去我們在委員會當中常常講到的是打造國際民主的供應鏈那麼對於台灣來講其實這個非常重要尤其是現在我們在跟美國進行所謂對等關稅的談判的過程當中美國非常在乎那就是台灣你選在哪一邊是中國的這一邊呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5139.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5158.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
還是美國的這所謂民主陣營的這一邊那麼當然我們知道我們有許多的這個軍購的武器是透過美國這邊來提供我們但是如果我們能夠有自己的供應鏈那也是一個非常好的那麼打造無人機供應鏈的這個部分呢我們在落實國防自主跟打造 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5159.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5179.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
去紅供應鏈的部分國防部現在如何來推動研擬強化國防自主呢在有關於技術轉移跟落實的部分其實本席有提了兩個修法而這兩個修法當中我們都希望是能夠把一定的這個所謂國防自主當中的武器以及技術轉移要能夠放進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5180.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5207.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那麼另外一個就是其實在台灣高手在民間過去我們都講說在台灣的AI的部分我們要找黃仁勛回來那蘇之鋒能夠加入那麼本席發現其實我們在我們自己國人所擔任負責人的這樣一個公司他跟美軍都有專案合作我不曉得部長知不知道這一間耐能晶片公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5212.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5221.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
要讓專業的來是不是我不曉得中科院能夠講到什麼程度他跟我們也有一些合作的關係他承接我們的一些技術的轉移 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5223.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5246.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
所以說基本上國際美軍所使用的這間公司我們也有把它找來合作如果是真的機密的部分可以不用回應因為其實本席會提出這一題是因為我發現高手真的在民間其實有很多是我們台灣之光創辦人他可能真的都是台灣人就像黃仁勳一樣只是 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5247.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5263.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
他可能在國外成立公司那這樣子募資是比較容易的那麼其實國人常常都會講說我們台灣的研發能力是不是不夠那麼當我們要跟別人合作的時候人家是不是不願意那麼我比較想要了解的是以部長或者是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5264.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5279.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
中會院的角度怎麼來看就是當我們真的有民間高手的時候那我們有多少的合作或是有多少的協助那麼或是有多少的這個部分是可以在合作之後又能做技術的轉移部長跟委員報告我覺得我只能夠說到這樣的程度就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5288.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5305.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
美國在政策面上面他希望我們民間中科院跟美國的這些相關具有關鍵技術的公司三方能夠合作打造一個去紅的供應鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5306.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5322.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那這樣的一個政策經由這樣的確定之後呢他們鼓勵相關的公司來台灣那不管跟民間也好那當然就國防部來講特別是跟中科院也好有相當多的這樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5325.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5342.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這些共同研發也好,技術轉移也好但是我想詳細的這個部分,如果委員想要了解的話,我覺得我們可能只能私下再去跟委員做一些說明跟報告,可能不宜在這個地方做過多的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5342.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5355.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
好沒有問題喔因為這個畢竟也是我們重要的技術我會提出這一點當然最重要的就是川普現在他也在所謂拼他的這個整個國家整體經濟啦那麼當然我們事實上我們的軍售有高達219.5億美元現在是錢擺在那裡但是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5366.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5381.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
交貨這是這樣嗎還是說這只是媒體報導上面所提出來的應該現在沒有這樣子的一個高達這樣的經驗我想那個鼓勵處長也已經說明過了詹惠寺要不要再說明一下好 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5383.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5409.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
報告委員,我是站官司司長跟委員報告在過去幾年因為受到疫情影響的國際供應鏈目前已經逐漸在恢復正常所以委員也可以看到從去年開始我們主要的武器裝備已經陸續貨裝那卡托研究所報的這個219億的這個數字事實上跟我們目前實際掌握的是有相當大的落差大部分的案子都已經正常在走 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5409.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5435.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
好所以說其實是因為受到疫情影響那麼在這個部分其實交貨的部分也沒有問題現在變成只有這可以講到什麼可以講的講就是說不能講的我們可以會後來說是我想應該是說大部分的都應該有看到比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5437.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5445.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
因為大家會過去講托斯2B,我們就公開講托斯2B已經交運了 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5446.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5468.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
現在F-16手架已經在辦理交機,那我們希望當然在明年的年底之間還是能夠如期交互那其他的包括海馬斯跟M1A2我想進度都正常好,我想其實在有關於兩岸軍事合作上面啦,不論是武器面或者是訓練面台灣無庸置疑的絕對會是美國的優先夥伴 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5470.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5496.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
一方面剛剛我前面問到的我們國防自主然後我們在技術上面能夠獲得更多的去紅工藝鏈之外我們自己有能力自主那麼另外一方面當然就是不要讓外界覺得說好像我們其實是有努力在爭取軍購但是有什麼地方卡關了那麼今天在部長或者是相關的說明當中我們也感受到就是其實國防部在這兩個部分都有持續在做努力好謝謝部長好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5501.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5530.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
好 謝謝主委委員 謝謝部長接下來有請王定宇委員上台質詢好 請顧部長顧部長 謝謝另外偵探局軍安總隊那個麻煩上來一下是 王委員部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5532.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5554.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
共諜當然我們深惡痛絕我也相信99.99我們的國軍弟兄不管在職或退役都是忠於國家中共是我們最大也是唯一的威脅像中共解放軍效忠就是背叛國家那任何團體當然都有壞分子那最近我們這兩天看到這個消息 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5556.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5582.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
樣態媒體都有報了我不重複就包含了在士林的憲兵隊海軍的威海營區穿我們國軍的制服在那邊揮舞新旗拍影像向解放軍效忠不想在案子你都知道嘛這個案子有的起訴了我相信有的是我們我們掌握的我第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5583.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5603.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我想了解是共諜在發展組織特別針對軍方因為過去一年有軍事有國軍背景或退役背景的大概佔了六成的涉犯人員他吸收的模式看起來常常跟財務有關係利用你財務上有困難或者需要用錢我來幫你吸收起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5604.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5631.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那這幾個看起來拍了五星旗效忠中共傳到用telegram傳給他的對接口單位就可以拿到三萬塊幾萬塊錢那部長或者我們政戰局對這樣的犯罪樣態有沒有什麼反制或者因應的做法我想是不是先請軍事安全總隊是不是檢討說明看能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5632.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5645.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
簡單一下,我今天有好幾個題目要問委員好,我是保保安全署長跟委員說明,就針對憲兵這次案子的部分已經由憲兵指揮部針對所屬211以及相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5649.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5675.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
涉及機敏的部隊已經都實施完成了社民安全查核針對有故意人員已經都調整限職也針對他們所接任機敏職務的標的也都請憲兵指揮部針對相關這個我們媒體都看到我不是要粗魯的打斷你我每次聽到處理層也都一樣我現在只問一件事情我們每個單位每個部隊都有陣戰人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5676.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5703.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
在那邊揮舞五星旗 還可以拍影片偵探局在搞什麼偵探局在搞什麼我十年來支持你們這個案子一個直接接一個 層出不窮我們自己當過兵之後 你在營區拿五星旗揮舞部隊有沒有爛掉我再還有一個案子台南新化某營區職業兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5707.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5717.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
一位下士一年多被弄到去跟錢專借錢回家騙媽媽的錢後來我一查單位主管班長介紹他去借錢的這部隊怎麼辦啊政戰局在搞什麼事後該辦用軍法辦重辦槍斃我沒有話講 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5733.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5754.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
可是一而再 再而三的發生它到底是結構性的問題 組織的問題還是管理上我們有什麼漏洞部長 威海營區耶士林憲兵隊耶如果這些單位都還可以在營區揮舞五星旗那我們其他單位呢 山上的雷達站濱海的部隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5762.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5780.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
部長這件事情聖誕單位要不要就責?怎麼管的?我想這個部分也是經過一方面官兵檢舉那一方面也是透過自查的方式我們主動移送應該是在112年的時候的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5781.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5810.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那所以我們就這個部分我想我們也因此就陸海工軍刑法的這個部分呢現在呢直接就以說對敵人為效忠之表示呢就直接定在陸海工軍刑法24條我的憤怒來自於我們我們都相信看到很多國軍弟兄辛辛苦苦盡忠職守出一兩個這種老鼠屎你要解釋多久然後洩露了什麼東西信任一旦瓦解 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5811.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5827.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
信任一旦瓦解 我們就中了對方的計嘛說實在 他會為五星旗打仗穿人幹嘛可信任 軍民關係的信任一旦受損了在我們的社會 我們的防衛任性 我們的部隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5831.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5857.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
你很難拿到社會的力量所以我在這個題目另外一面我是希望部長跟相關單位研擬一下軍安總隊是我們法定的情報機關他目前是大概根據勤工法裡面唯一沒有領到這個勤工加給的該給他給他該給他編制給他編制可是當他沒有辦法把職責發揮出來的時候我們該要求就要求軍安總隊應該贊成吧我們應該這樣做啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5861.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5878.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我現在是一方面增加軍三輪總隊的一個員額,另外我們也擴大了防美軍的部分,就是說揭密的程度,依照他揭密的等級,我們有不同深度的安全查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5879.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5905.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那軍安總隊的這個作為一個法定的情報機關的那個佳績的部分呢監察院在這個去年的九月也有一個調查報告提到這一個部分那這個部分我們會進行來研議我們國防預算也許會擴充擴充除了裝備重要以外人也很重要讓我們的國軍住得好一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5906.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5921.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
用的各種好一點 生活的品質好一點該給他的勤工家籍就給他該屬於他的戰鬥家籍就給他回過頭我們要求他忠於自己的國家忠於台灣2300萬我們的納稅人 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5924.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5949.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這是相對的所以部長我希望盡快看到有關軍安總隊源而增加任務的強化或者他該增加什麼樣的能力或者是科技的裝備另外對於勤工加擠的部分也希望在近期內可以看到你提出來能不能這樣做我們需要跟行政院協調那行政院當然我們也幫忙發聲嘛我們要求的時候我們也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5950.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5977.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
他做這個工作就該領這份心想這個是應該的另外我要請教部長其他兩位先請回另外這個漢光41號我們目前看到有揭露的當然內容有些新的部分那在高階幹部兵推的時候那是二月份那你旁邊座位有一個有一個座位表就出來那個是J-5嘛那一個是八九龍少將美國海軍陸戰隊屬於印太司令部的J-5 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5978.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6005.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
另外在這一次漢光41號2023吧之前沒多久他還是駐韓聯軍司令四星上將這位羅伯特艾布蘭那這次也來當顧問是我們漢光演習的編制的顧問那我先請教第一個問題就是說這個揭露的過程是否為台美有默契的行為還是不小心被揭露的 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6007.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6020.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我想台美之間的這個軍事交流我們都循低調務實的方式來進行我們並不沒有任何的雙方有 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6022.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6045.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
有所謂的默契要公開我們都不予評論部長你也待過國安會啦你現在在國安部台美之間這樣的訊息我們都盡量低調那通常有一個原則美方揭露就可以揭露或者台美之間有默契揭露才揭露揭露也是為了嚇阻一些事情或者形塑一些事所以這兩個訊息的因為連續啊二月份然後現在四月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6046.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6069.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我不太認為我們軍方或者我們相關擁有這個消息的人員會連續犯兩次錯所以這個揭露我個人認為是也許是默契下的行為揭露之後就讓各方去揣測我們就保持低調那這個四星上將擔任我們漢光演習的我們的參謀總長的顧問部長就你了解的情形這是史上第一次還是以前就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6072.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6090.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我想我們這些都屬於常態性的台美的軍事交流都會按計畫來執行那為了汲取國外的軍事經驗我們透過雙方的交流可以去增進訓練的效益那提升國軍的整體戰力那其他對這些個案我想我們還是不予評論啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6091.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6108.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
所以基本上這個你不予評論啦因為就我去看的資料我以往沒有看過這情形那不管是巴結隆他負責Policy Strategy Plan負責跨國這些演訓或者是這個愛布蘭羅伯特愛布蘭他來他不能自己一個人來 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6111.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6129.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
就是說你要了解一個軍演或者雙方盟軍的合作或台美軍事的合作我們樂見因為這對台灣安全更有幫助那有隨行的觀察員嗎那可以回答就可以回答不能回答我尊重我想詳細的狀況私下再跟我們說明因為將軍不帶兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6133.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6162.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
其實這個用處不一樣那來到這邊一個是現役的J5一個是剛退沒多久駐韓的聯合部隊跟韓國部隊都歸他指揮那他只是一個人來看跟帶一群觀察員而且是現役的觀察員來看代表的意義跟功能又不一樣那我尊重這個我們可以私下溝通我最後請教這一次我們漢光電腦兵推從過去的8天7夜增加到14天 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6165.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6187.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
13頁那增加這個時間它的原因是什麼增加了哪些科目因為我們是從這個灰色地帶的一個洗澡的這個想定的狀況所以想定歧視點往前推了往前因為現在很多狀況它都是用灰色地帶的洗澡來作為一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6189.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6214.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
就像現在很多針對性的一些軍演這些狀況我們必須要隨時掌握他們的一個意圖所以我們把這個時間要往前部長我了解因為我聽你講過這個我的意思是說那也就是從原來的8天7夜變成14天13夜因為我們把想定的狀況提早嘛所以增加的時間跟科目是跟灰色地帶的coercion有關嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6215.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6234.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
灰色地帶的洗澡可能會升級到有可能如果有關鍵的疫情增活的話會演變到一個高強度的時候我們要如何來進行立即的備戰操演然後提升加強戒備有沒有增加一些以前到現在沒有的科目 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6235.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6252.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
歷年來都會有增加相關的在科目裡面因為相關的這些透過這些模擬系統我們來進行推演之後呢我們會在七月的漢光的實兵在裡面再做驗證我的意思是說你增加了快一倍的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6253.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6264.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
相當長,因為我們往前拉也往後拉對,所以應該有多一些新的科目是有沒有什麼科目可以讓國人知道更安心一點,或者你不辯講我也尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6266.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6288.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
是連山註冊跟委員報告除了我們前面的灰色地帶硬處以外在整個從應急戰備到全面戒備之間中間我們要相關包含海空的聯合作戰以及包含地面作戰的部分我們都有把 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6288.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6316.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
拉長然後去做這個電腦的你這樣講大概就是增加了一些因應的措施嘛那我們海巡的納入啦或者是民防的納入那跟友盟之間的互動我想大概是這一次漢光41號增加很多新的東西啦那些時間關係我們有的私下溝通那謝部長我會把那個新化這個單位他那個用你知道民間透過主管館介紹士官來借錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6318.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6325.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這會出問題 我會把資料給各位所以我們一定會來精進這些相關的這些查察好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6328.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6353.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
謝謝庭園委員 謝謝部長各單位在詢答的時候記得靠近麥克風一點怕公報的聲音會錄不到在馬文君委員上台諮詢之前因為目前我們有收到臨時提案一案因為要收到10點半以後所以我待會算了一下大概就是我 就是沈博洋委員諮詢結束以後我們來進行處理臨時提案接下來有請馬文君委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6367.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6368.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩請部長有請部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6377.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6380.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
是嗎 委員好部長早部長剛剛有委員剛好提到了王委員也提到就是說在我們漢光41號電腦兵推其實再過幾天其實就要結束了那這兩週的電腦兵推其實在過去時間沒有那麼長那這一次號稱是最長最硬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6403.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6418.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
一次電腦兵棋演練可是我們看到的部分就是說所有的陸海空三軍那邊參加兵棋推演的全部都管制休假對不對我們這一次的您講的是電腦輔志指揮所的演習嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6424.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6430.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
因為電腦組織指揮所的演習是主要在聯合作案能力的機制還有指揮官的決策還有參謀的判斷跟計畫作為的部分所以主要都是著重在指揮官層級的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6445.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6448.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
所以指揮官層級這一次也是非常重要的尤其我們是在對於不管是各級指揮所部隊科目的驗證也是驗證國防部在暫時要怎麼樣去維持正常的運作可是我們看到這一次時間把它拉長所有的三軍全部都是管制休假可是只有國防部跟中央單位雖然那邊可是卻可以正常休假 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6475.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6476.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
只有輪值的留下來對不對橫跨六日的部分目前只有參演的部分參演的我剛剛提到了齁就是說其實只有參演你今天既然把它拉長你又號稱最長最硬那既然所有那邊的因為你們對三軍基層的是非常嚴格的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6498.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6501.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
所有只要那邊的全部休假都管制而且即使他沒有參與演練他只是不只輪值的要留下來而已可是我們看到剛剛部長也提到這一個部分在驗證我們所有的指揮體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6513.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6519.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
因為其實三軍每年都在演陸海空軍三軍他們平常也知道自己的任務跟位置所以其實他們平常也比較駕輕就熟反而比較不清楚的就是我們現在我們所有的像國防部或者中央單位的這些高師幕僚他們的指揮參謀作業因為到戰時的時候你必須要到十大戰略單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6538.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6559.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
就是因為你平常不知道你的任務跟位置在哪裡所以你透過這樣的演練你才要熟悉這樣的位置可是我們卻在六日的時候我們都可以正常休假對不對這一次委員一直在講那個國防部的指參的這些人員嗎對你講可是他如果是要屬於指揮所的人員他沒有休假啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6568.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6589.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
都休假了,部長你再去了解一下,雖然你有參與,很清楚的知道,其實是有,都沒有休假嗎?所以有參與,那邊的有沒有休假?那邊的有沒有休假?部長,讓他們講清楚好了,那邊,只要是那邊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6591.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6596.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
包委員我是陸軍司令部常務長我就實際上的狀況以我們陸軍司令部而言我們司令部的幕僚雖然沒有在整個的目前所謂的指揮鏈裡面但是我們事實上也編組了向上充實國防部的我們問的問題很簡單這次那邊的剛剛提到的這些國防部還有中央單位這些高司幕僚指揮參謀這些他們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6620.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6643.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
六日有沒有正常的休假那邊的都沒有休假那邊的都沒有休假確定那邊的都沒有休假但我必須跟委員報告我們有一些特殊事故的可能家裡面有特別的狀況需要照顧我只要說你那邊的都沒有休假包括所有的這些但是有特殊事故的他有權責長官可以做一個特殊的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6644.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6669.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
特殊事故我們不會特別去追究因為你現在我們一直講演習視同作戰你讓所有的都是高強度的作業可是我們知道的訊息如果有可能就有人要負責好不好部長如果這個是正常的休假那邊人員有正常休假要有人負責好不好因為你們今天在這裡公然的說都沒有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6670.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6674.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
都沒有正常休假嘛對不對我的了解應該是那邊的人在這個這個電腦輔助組織所的這個病退期應該是不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6679.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6704.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
不會有休假的狀況沒有正常休假沒關係我們掌握的是有那如果今天公然在這裡說通通沒有那如果有發生這樣的事情是不是有人要負責因為我們需要探討並不是要追究責任可是當你在這裡說的是不符事實的時候那就責任就要追究了好不好那會後我們再跟委員再來請教好 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6706.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6722.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
謝謝 那接下來我們就今天的這個修法內容部長您是人權律師對於我們所有的權益不管它是什麼樣的身份背景其實它都應該要受到所有的一些保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6723.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6728.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那我們今天看到有很多 我們一直在強調很多軍人可能觸犯了像共諜啦 或者相關的這些刑法對於國安造成影響的部分這個我們都認為其實應該要嚴格的去做一些處置可是我們看到今天想要修的這個權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6747.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6758.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
今天修法的內容是針對軍事官上司領受退出給予的權利那在這裡要請教部長我們的願板出來了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6759.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6778.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
跟委員報告這應該分兩部分一部分是屬於這個有關那個退出給予的部分那有關一部分是對敵人效忠表示對敵人為那個也就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6780.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6796.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
兩岸人民關係要九十三條的那個部分啦不是對敵人為效忠表示就是九十三條九十三條是陸委會負責那另外退出基地的部分他牽扯到的有幾個法有一個是國安法的十三條有一個是部長我知道齁 那個那這個部分是有因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6797.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6815.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
就法務部已經內部討論跨部會討論就是依照法務部對於國安法的13條的修訂的這個結果其他各部會包括我們的服役條例等等還有退伍費的部分那麼就配同等配合來進行修正這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6816.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6823.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
不是我們到目前沒有看到院版的過去國防部只要院長院版沒有提出來或者國防部沒有主動提出來我們幾乎都是暫緩去討論或者去執行的像我們看到軍人年金改革相關的修正案軍人權益保障條例退役軍人就業促進法軍券住宅優惠條例想要這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6839.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6843.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
還有一個國軍退出一官兵輔導條例這個就是最簡單的就是上校子女的教育補助的這個部分當時大家提出來的時候包括我們執政黨在野黨其實大家都認同應該要有一致性可是那時候的一個理由就是說院版還沒有提出來所以就各自討論了 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6860.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6864.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
現在我們看到今天的這個條例院版也沒有提出來我們雖然軍人可能有觸犯到一些相關的一些像共諜的案子可是我們看到現在民進黨高層包括府院黨立法院所有的都已經被滲透而且非常的深入而且非常的廣泛甚至它是核心中的核心這個對大家來說其實聽到了都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6889.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6896.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
覺得非常的驚恐他甚至比其他的相關的一些軍人的作為因為有一些是士兵有一些是士官那相對的軍官其實他們所掌握的機敏性的資料或者他們的作為反而都是比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6904.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6921.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
可能是限制性的或者局部性的可是我們看到的這些涉入共諜的這些高層其實他是非常嚴重他甚至面對所有的國安的問題所有的面向所有的政策所有的外交事務其實都已經涵蓋在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6924.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6933.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
相對的我們覺得更驚恐的是這一部分可是我們看不到我們是不是會有相應的作為我們也看到今天在總統府的憲兵這個號稱天下第一營還有士林憲兵隊這個原本要抓共諜的自己都變成共諜 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6941.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6943.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
或者像資通電軍或者海軍飛彈快艇等等的這些士官其實他們整體的薪資也不低可是他全部都被滲透我們從不管你是執政黨也好或者府院高層也好或者立法院也好或者軍中也好其實被滲透的這麼深這麼廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6961.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6987.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
其實我們應該要去探討的是到底為什麼發生這樣的原因第一可能我們的敵我意識已經喪失就是根本讓軍人沒有敵我意識第二個就是他的中心思想像我們在很多現代史你都不教事實上它就是延續性的你讓大家清清楚楚明明白白我覺得這更容易讓大家有一個中心思想我們要怎麼樣讓我們的軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6989.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6993.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
去愛我們中華民國這個國家其實才是重點不然你再加薪或者你再嚴苛的法律都沒有用它不斷不斷的發生而且越來越多而且成績越來越高這個才是最大的問題我相信部長您是律師出身你也參與過國安單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7008.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7015.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那現在整個國防體系也是你在執掌我相信會有更多的面向應該要去注意的剛剛我們提到今天要提出來的這個條例為什麼我認為還有很大的問題第一個就是我剛剛說的你院版根本沒有出來國防部質疑如果覺得這非常重要你也沒有提出修法要去修訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7029.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7034.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那如果說只是現在這樣你就把他納為優先的我覺得是太倉促了一點那第二個你在我們修正的條文裡面我們有看到的你說如果一審確定以後就把他的退休給予全部都讓他喪屍等到真的他判決確定沒有罪的時候再還給他那這中間如果他發生生活困難呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7056.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7061.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那如果他最後判決無罪的時候你是不是要付他利息或者如果他最後判決確定是無罪的時候是不是要像228一樣你必須要道歉你必須要恢復人家的名譽你今天如果這是一個非常重大的問題我們都認為如果涉犯共諜或者內亂外患危害到國家的時候我們都要應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7082.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7087.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
嚴刑峻罰我想這個大家都同意可是你如果光是對軍人你用這樣的程度而且裡面的條文沒有很清楚的知道比如說像我們的報告裡面有說可能一定比例先把它扣除可是你在法上沒有啊你在條文裡面根本都沒有啊所以我剛剛提到的這些問題都會是存在很大的問題這樣以後誰敢來當軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7109.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7125.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
跟委員報告簡單三點 第一點就是說行政院院版正在討論當中 那麼原則上來講應該是在判決第一審判決之後會做部分的這個部分 就我了解修法方向這是第一點第二點要加強保防意識 而且要加強敵我的 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7126.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7141.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
意識這個是我們贊成的第三個我們要建立國安的共同的威脅圖像來將這個緩情報跟這個工作做好那麼我想這個都是我們應該努力的方向以上所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7141.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7144.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
部長剛剛您提到的這些部分因為我們在法條上面都還沒有看到所以這樣的討論其實是太粗糙了怎麼樣把原本的提出來以後讓大家清清楚楚的知道權益應該怎麼樣被保障軍人應該要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7156.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7168.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
有首有為我們全力支持可是你也不知道說他判的那個輕重比如說六個月他可能不是非常重可是他是所有的退休給予全部都要喪失嗎你的標準在哪裡我們完全看不到所以我們希望院版還有國防部必須提出更好然後可以真的規範到相關的這些案子不斷的層出不窮的發生而且不只軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7183.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7188.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
今天他已經滲透到所有剛剛我們說的府院黨其實這是更嚴重的問題因為他攸關我們整個決策的方向他甚至攸關到我們所有元首或者其他人的安全這個部分我想國防部也應該要一併考量我們國安單位也應該要一併考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7205.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7217.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
一直把那個圈子一直繞在一個局部的地方因為你要讓大家對我們國家更有信心而且願意真正的願意把這個志業繼續持續下去愛護我們的國家這個部分請部長就這個部分我們提出願板以後再深入的去做全面的一個探討好不好好 謝謝委員子謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7234.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7236.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那現在處理臨時提案請議事人員宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7243.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7253.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
臨時提案,今年共諜案件頻傳,涉案者高達六成多為現退役軍人,顯示敵情滲透日益嚴峻。軍中反情報機制即待強化,為國防部軍事安全總隊,自2005年納入《國家情報工作法》後,依法執行反情報、風險預警與安全回報等任務,至今卻仍為納編情報工作加急。 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7267.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7295.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
形成法定責任與待遇不符之落差時有檢討調整之必要建請國防部於二個月內提出研議方案將軍事安全總隊軍職人員及聘僱員納入勤工加擠反情報加擠對象強化第一線保防戰力落實國安體系待遇公平提案人委員王定宇聯署人委員羅美玲陳俊宇陳冠廷林楚英沈伯陽等委員宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7297.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7307.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
請問提案委員需不需要說明我說明一下謝謝主席我們對軍方要給予足夠跟充分的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7308.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7334.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
我們也要求軍方對於國家以及台灣的人民絕對的忠誠這是相對的那長期以來根據勤工法在國安局轄下的情報工作單位目前大概就軍安總隊呢是規定在勤工法裡面卻沒有領有勤工加給所以從2005年到目前為止這個狀況一直沒有改善變成法定他有責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7335.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7349.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
比方說像我們針對這些共諜案我們可以把軍安總隊 偵探局相關單位給予最嚴厲的要求但是我們也希望在嚴厲的要求之餘也要看看這些工作人員他們應該要支領相對的法定的報酬 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7350.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7378.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
所以本席今天特別提案那委員會的提案給予國防部長作為支持的一個力量盡快落實按照勤工法給予我們軍安總隊軍職人員 聘僱人員符合勤工法裡面規定的人員給予反情報加給或者是國安單位所講的勤工加給這是不同的名詞但只同一件事情來待遇公平那我 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7379.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7404.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
再多說一句就是這些案件層出不窮也許我們認為說軍安總隊或者我們相關國軍的督察單位很認真所以把這些害蟲都抓出來了但這不能自滿當我剛才講當我們看到在這些機敏的營區或者就在營區裡面大喇喇的揮舞著敵人的軍旗敵人的旗幟的時候作為一個指揮官你看到你應該膽戰心驚你應該心驚膽跳 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7410.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7429.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
這個事情是完全不能容忍所以我支持用最重的法律去懲治這些違法亂紀的害群之馬但我們也希望給予我們國軍弟兄姊妹充足的支持所以以上提案說明 謝謝請問國防部對提案內容有沒有意見國防部這邊報告這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7431.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7458.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
我們最近針對資源疫還有戰鬥加急的調整都可以看得出來部長對官兵待遇的重視那有關於後續我們還有一些待遇也會陸陸續續做調整那委員今天所提這個案子我們會一併納入檢討下禮拜我們完成一個初步的年底之後向部長報告完那經過部長指導之後我再會帶著相關人員到委員那邊做說明那至於文職的部分我們沒有修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7461.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7486.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
這個國防部沒有文字修改 謝謝好 那請問這堂委員有沒有意見好 那這本提案就照案通過那我們接下來請沈培安委員質詢謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7495.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7511.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
是 沈偉豪部長好我剛剛還是要回應一下剛剛有說這個沒有院版因為現在院版的確還沒有出來沒有院版之前但因為今天只是巡打也沒有進入主條我認為還是有必要讓大家先來討論這件事情再加上最近又有共諜案 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7512.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7535.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那這個我在這個之前我想先問一下部長這個你可能已經知道了就是之前有這個參盤的事情那我其實沒有要針對這個個案因為畢竟它只是一個單一個案但當時就是說有說這個希望能夠帶參盤什麼等等之類的但是就我的理解就是說後來有說其實並沒有要求這個統一的形式 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7536.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7560.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
但後來下面這個可能不知道是揣摩上意呢還是說他自己的雞婆他又開始對下面做一個要求所以導致有一些士兵反彈所以我想比較通暗型的問就是說因為畢竟國軍的管理體系現在真的是非常的龐大這個命令傳達的過程難免有失誤那是不是可以請這個部長或司令說明就是說接下來在這一類事情的一個處理方式這個部分我們先請參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7566.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7587.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
謝謝您給我這個說明的機會首先我向 也到委員辦公室做過報告那我在這邊再做一次說明事實上國軍在整個的內部管理跟用餐等等都是有相關的規範那這個案子事實上也是我必須先說明我們絕大多數的單位都是按照現行的一個規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7589.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7614.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那這個事實就是一個少部分偏遠單位那可能疏於過去從疫情解封之後沒有把它回歸到正常那有關於那既然他是大部分的部隊也都是維持正確的規範那基本上我們就也只是去就這個案子去就一個溝通說明就是提醒他如何去照顧官兵跟重視餐飲衛生以上報告好 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7615.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7637.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我想就我的立場是這樣子啦就是說有關這個一個這麼多層級的一個部隊那麼這個司令可能他這個是基於關懷跟照顧官兵的一個心意所以接下來應該是說像這個部分的話應該還是要由部隊去主動去 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7638.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7661.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
主動去提供應該要有部隊去主動提供這個膳食的這個餐具而不是由官兵來發揮這是第一個那第二個相關的這些部分如果有他們有任何的這個意見的話我想部隊的部分的都應該要將這個情形要要轉達上來那這樣的話我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7662.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7678.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
這樣的溝通才會良好謝謝部長我覺得溝通的效率現在對我們來講真的是很重要尤其是現在這個危險的時刻因為這個我們有發過文也有在這個辦公室說明過但是我想說趁這個機會還是跟社會大眾說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7678.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7703.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那我們回到今天的這個法案今天這個法案有兩個重點第一個當然就是其實我們是一陣子以前提的第二個就是說在前幾個禮拜總統在講這個五大威脅跟十七項策略的時候他裡面其實就有提到就是說國防部須嚴禮在陸海工軍刑法徵定對敵人效忠表示之處罰並修正對於領取退出給予人員的相關規範所以我認為這個既然是這個總統有特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7706.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7724.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
提到說國防部應該做這個相關的規範那我覺得不如趁今天這個機會我們來釐清到底有哪些應該要訂哪些不需要訂那這個這個之前我們有看過就是說這次共諜案其實不管是現役跟退役軍人這個佔的百分比這當然是越來越高我相信部長對這個也知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7725.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7740.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那有兩件事情我想要問第一個就是說過往我們發現現役軍人的這一個接觸很多是透過退役軍官這是我們確定的事情所以我在質詢退輔會國防部的時候很常提到但剛好這幾天這個五星旗這個新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7742.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7767.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
我們發現這個中間人他不是什麼一開始並不是那個特異的軍官一開始是宗教的組織也就是說他先從宗教的組織再到這個特異的軍官然後再去到現役的軍人也就是說這種事情的這種複雜程度可以說是越來越高白手套越來越多所以我認為在這個情形之下我們要怎麼去盤點這個風險變得特別的重要這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7768.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7786.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
然後第二個就是說因為我們這一次的修法有這三個不同的層面第一個就是它直接喪屍然後中間是一個比較低程度的就是說它是剝奪或減少然後最後有這個停止清理的權利那我剛才提案說明其實已經有提過了那我現在會比較有疑惑的事情就是說因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7787.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7804.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
其實我們在第一個犯內亂外患這個部分它只是跟其他的法律對齊我覺得對齊這個部分應該不會有什麼疑慮停止的這個部分我們在之前在辦公室其實也有跟國防部討論過看起來好像國防部對這個的意見也不會太多但現在因為剝奪或減少這一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7805.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7818.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
如果只按照現有的條文不知道會不會不足夠為什麼我這樣講呢是因為我整理幾個案件這幾個案件不是軍人那第一個案件就是很久以前這一個有個共諜他解釋了王某 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7819.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7846.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
然後透過什麼聊什麼新聞網去經營網站當時法院判無罪是因為無法證明他有達到危害國家安全的程度這是第一個第二個是中華婦女聯會前理事長秘書涉嫌收受中國對台情收機關的款項他確實有收款項跟前一個案例是一模一樣的但他不能夠證明他有意圖危害國家或社會的安定最主要是不能夠證明他發展組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7848.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7868.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那再來這一個是退役的協會理事長等等之類的那因為無從證明他的出資者是中國的國台辦然後又不能證明是發展組織所以現在我們的國安法就有一個困擾就是說因為國安法其實它的規定有點限縮那我們現在也沒有辦法馬上修國安法認為修國安法大概還需要很長的一段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7869.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7887.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那因為九之三就是剛剛這個處英委員有提到就是對於比如說妨害尊嚴啊等等的行為所以這邊我想問一下部長就是說我們有沒有可能在中間這一個就是剝奪或減少退出給予這邊因為他到喪屍沒辦法因為國安法就是有些案件他規定不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7887.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7906.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
但他其實已經有行為不管是他有收錢還是他有單點的對口但是還沒有到發展組織總之他就是沒有到國安法那麼嚴重的程度但他有損軍域他也妨礙國家尊嚴像九資三那樣的一個條文的規定那他有沒有可能把他納入到剝奪或減少退出給予中間這一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7908.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7934.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
跟委員報告 第一個就是說國安法的部分它現在也正在由法務部在研議就是說有關參與的部分要把它納入那這個部分在由法務部做那93條這個有妨害國家尊嚴的這個行為的這個部分現在應該是由陸委會在主導那國安部等人都在參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7938.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7964.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我們國防部的部分要不要納入這個有領取業退縫的部分那這個部分來做那如果有這樣的一個狀況的話就會按照相關的這個規定會有剝奪或減少退出給予的這個部分這樣子是有機會的就93條的這個部分看要怎麼修那我國防部的立場就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7965.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7993.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
你還在領取業退碰的這個期間這樣因為這個是因為這一次我在修法的時候我沒有把這個放進來就是因為我想知道這一個國防部的意見那因為既然剛剛前面已經提到了就是說17項措施這個總統也有提到那我們希望院版能夠盡快出來趁今天這一個機會那除了因為今天我們只排一個就排這一個法案但是我其實就是整個跟這個軍隊紀律有關的其實有那麼多法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7993.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8017.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那外患罪我已經提了但他應該會在司法法治那一邊兩岸人民條例會在內政委員會所以呢很多呢並沒有在這一邊就不是在國防外交但至少我們覺得我們針對這個服役條例或陸海工具刑法這一個部分看要怎麼去研議把這一個國安使法這一個整體的建立起來我覺得應該是一個未來重要的方向那我知道我時間已經到了那我就先講到這邊謝謝好 謝謝薛委 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8033.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8043.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
接下來有請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來有請許巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我們有請顧部長有請顧部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8061.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8078.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
是 薛恩好部長好那部長您曾經過去擔任過金管會的主委我想先請教一下一般我們在信用狀況正常的民眾那他到銀行去辦理無擔保的信用貸款我們一般利率大概會是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8079.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8095.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
我已經沒有在金管會很久了我已經在國安會都待了四年了那現在又在國安部待了快一年了我想你先問我金管會的事情那沒事沒事這個小事情大概是3%左右我們這個查核嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8095.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8115.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
那么呢好因为我今天要跟你讨论的是说我们的国军贷款专案这件事情我们可以看一下这张图虽然字有一点点小但是呢我们看到左边呢叫做国军的贷款专案也就是国军辅导理财专案贷款合作的行库跟合贷利率的比较表 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8116.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8141.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那他其實一共有五家的銀行配合那右邊的是軍公教他的福利事項比較表那行政院的人事總署網站有公告房貸他們是用台銀信貸是用土銀承作所以我們就先拿這兩家來做比較就是國軍的部分跟軍公教的部分我們來做比較那因為國軍總共五家那我們拿這兩家來跟公教人員去做比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8142.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8166.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那我們呢可以看到台銀在房貸的部分大概國軍還多公教人員0.1%個百分點算是能夠與公教人員一致但是我們實際去走訪了最近去買房貸的這個官兵他們表示說這張表的房貸並沒有比外面的銀行低那所以呢他認為這個國軍貸款專案那感覺沒有什麼特殊的用處那 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8167.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8191.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
最后呢这些人他们也都选了专案之外的这些公股银行作为他们的这个房贷选择那信用那这是第一个那部长等一下先帮我记一下再请您一次回复那信用贷款的部分呢就非常惊人因为以国均专案当中两间银行最高的信贷比率高达3.764%是公教人员利率的2.205%那等于是大概1.7倍左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8197.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8223.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那軍人他當然跟公教人員不一樣可是呢軍人其實比公教人員某些時候來說還要更加的辛苦那我們在想說國軍的這個貸款專案還有呢這個信貸專案那為什麼我們的福利挨了這麼大劫那這難道就是說這對國軍來說有公平嗎所以這個是我們的訴求我想要先請我們顧部長先針對這個部分來做回應主計局 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8225.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8249.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
委員好 我是主席局局長剛剛委員提到不管是房屋貸款或是信用貸款的利率國軍的相關的專案可能比公教導人員這邊來得高我這邊要先說明一個就是利率的決定基本上是乘坐銀行就他乘坐對象的一個風險他會做審慎的評估一開始國軍在做這個相關貸款的時候利率是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8250.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8272.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
跟這個比較低但是隨著這幾年來銀行在承作國軍相關不管是各階層軍官士官士兵他在做承帶的時候他發現他的風險他是有差異性的所以他就在這個利率上他就會去墊高那因為公教人員他相對的穩定所以他的風險會比較低所以他的利率 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8273.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8300.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
這是國防部的這個責任啊你懂我意思嗎就是你們不能說你叫國軍貸款專案那你就不要設專案就好了你直接讓他去外面城堡就好啦你直接外面去信貸就好啦那你為什麼要用國軍貸款專案呢你這個國軍貸款專案是讓國軍認為說我用這個專案可以比外面一般的民眾我們去貸款或者是說我們借利率的時候是比一般的民眾來的更加的優惠嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8302.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8331.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那你这样讲的话优惠与否看起来就没有啊所以这不是我们现在帮官兵争取福利是国防部的责任吗那我们什么时候好我这边我就问部长好了好不好因为主席已经说得很清楚了那我想要问一下我们是不是能够尽快跟五间银行去协商净利净速的调降部分的利率至少你要跟公教人员作为短期的目标是不是能够达成或者是说您支不支持这样的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8332.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8344.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
我會後了解以後我們再來跟相關的銀行來做訪問那我要問的是說布朗您對於這樣子的方案或是我的想法來說的話你是支持與否 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8346.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8369.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
呃我們呃當然要看他的尤其在信用貸款的部分他的基礎是什麼那我們了解以後好那如果是以我剛剛所說的就是說國軍跟公教人員他們的尤其是信用貸款的部分那差額非常大的話是不是可以請這個國防部盡可能的去爭取我們可以看到像以圖銀的部分那可以呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8370.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8384.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
能夠向2.2左右往下調一些讓我們的軍官不要覺得說人家公教人員的這個福利都比較好我們軍人的福利都比較差這是希望我們的這個國防部可以去做的那第二個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8385.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8402.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
也跟金钱有关就是急难贷款刚才大家都在讲到这个共铁的各种这个事情什么占比多少等等我就不再说了其中呢你们都有说明说呢中共他们利用黑道帮派地下钱庄掩护一些什么样的这个团体等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8402.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8424.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
去接觸有財務缺口的基層官兵那以金錢利誘債務拼付的方式然後進行滲透那這個就是你們之前就有在說明的可是我們看一下公教人員他們根據中央公教人員的急難貸款實施要點裡面他有一個1.695%的這個利率利息然後還有總額上限120萬的低額度到手的急難貸款服務那請問我們國軍呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8432.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8447.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
我們現在已經有一個報一個案子上去到行政院那邊了就是也是一個緊按貸款的一個方案那麼也是比照這個公交人員的比照公交人員對對那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8449.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8464.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
行政院還在跟行政院溝通當中我想要問一下比較公教人員公教人員比較沒有所謂的被滲透的風險有沒有可能國防部爭取在利率跟上限金額上面再比公教人員高一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8466.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8492.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
因為兩種還是說國軍跟公教人員還是不太一樣那他如果今天是急難救助你是說金額還是說利率就利這個是那個我們看的是急難急難貸款的部分就是說他碰到急難貸款的時候軍公教人員他有這個利率跟上限金額的部分嘛那我是想要問說上限金額跟利率的部分是否有機會比公教人員來的更高一點點 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8493.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8510.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
比如說我們的利息變低然後我們的上限金額變高有沒有可能不只是像公教人員一樣而是能夠再往上提高一點點因為畢竟你們都講了說這個中共利用等等的然後財務缺口然後呢進行滲透嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8510.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8528.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
那所以如果說我們今天要讓我們有財務缺口的這些軍官能夠可以有一個急難救助金然後去借款的話那他就比較不容易在這個部分就被滲透掉所以照理來說我們應該國軍在上限金額跟利率上要比公交人員來得高 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8529.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8558.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
因為國軍跟工匠人員比起來國軍被滲透的可能性也比較高風險比較高所以我在這一點上面我是希望能夠替國軍爭取說他們的急難貸款裡面上限金額提高比工匠人員高利率能夠比工匠人員低我不曉得在這個部分我們部長有沒有可能跟我們報告因為就我的理解它有不同的類別有傷病醫護傷臟災害育嬰長後護理長期照護等等然後還有一個小額紓困 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8559.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8581.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那我們現在還在各個最高的金額跟相關的利率我們還在跟行政院我知道你說還在討論嘛但是我想要問的問題其實很簡單報給行政院的時候我們可不可以那在這個部分我們盡可能的去爭取就是說因為國軍的特殊性所以呢他在上限金額就各類型的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8581.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8600.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
因為我就不一一列舉啦我一一列舉的話每個都要問很麻煩嘛上限金額跟利率的部分我們可以比公教人員還要來的優惠那就是因為他的軍隊的國軍的這個特殊性的關係那希望這個部分我們國防部可以來跟行政院再去做更多的爭取 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8600.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8626.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那我认为这个对我们的国安相关的这个所谓反渗透的方式也会有一些的帮助或许不一定真的很多但是我觉得会有帮助因为比起现在都不是就是没有的状况来说我觉得呢会比较好一些所以这一点是不是在拜托郭玉琼部长能够帮国军争取权益呃相关金额跟利率的部分我们再跟主席总书做一个讨论好好好谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8631.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8644.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
謝謝小協委員 謝謝部長接下來有請吳宗憲委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我們麻煩部長有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8654.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8670.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
部長早安您辛苦了部長我想請教的問題大概一塊是有關那個違反國安法軍事關退休金的問題另外一個是軍審法的問題那第一個我想請教一下就是我看到資料2020年到現在為止這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8671.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8697.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
共點案我們起訴是159人那有6成是現役或現役的軍人那總共95人嘛其中軍官46人士官27人士兵22人那我想請教一下就這些案子裡面拿到對岸滲透勢力的酬勞依據你們之前調查那個最高的酬勞是什麼最高啊對對這個看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8702.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8720.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
像委員報告以往案例最高曾經拿到一千多萬一千多萬好謝謝好那這一次我是想請教一下就是說那我們這一次的公安部的這個草案有提到可以剝奪退休金那你們有研判過這個剝奪退休金它能夠有效防止軍人成為共諜嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8722.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8747.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我想就這個部分主要的目的是在於就是說他因為對國家還有一個還在領退儲給予的這個權利的情況之下有一個忠誠的義務那如果他有違反這樣子的一個忠誠的義務的情況之下我們認為他不應該再有領受退儲給予的這樣的一個權利所以這個是懲罰他並不是說預防將來大家成為共諜是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8750.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8756.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我們當然希望透過這一個法律的制定會產生一定的威嚇的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8757.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8779.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
那這樣我想說從過往的例子我們大概初步的來看大概就不外乎錢、利益、女人或者是信仰等等的那我覺得就是說因為過往政府他有一個習慣遇到狀況就是大撒幣大補助那這一次政府也有一個賴總統有一個想法就是說他弄一個對自己的黨工成立一個救助金 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8780.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8798.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那這個救助金因為我在思考這個點當然這個不是國家出的錢這真的對於預防共諜有它的效果嗎其實我是打一個問號因為有人他可能是依據信仰而來嘛因為你說他可能是長期民進黨的黨工或高官其實他對經濟是沒有任何 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8799.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8815.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
困難或甚至說他只是愛錢他經濟沒有困難他就是喜歡金錢然後這時候這樣子真的能夠有效去制止這個成為共諜這是我的一個問題所以我是希望說可以的我希望說你們能夠提供給我一些資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8816.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8843.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
就是這段時間你們調查的結果就成為共諜你們後來一定有做一些研判嘛那這個研判資料可不可以給我就是大概在什麼樣的情況下什麼樣的背景下它可能會變成朝共諜這個方向就好像你當過金管會你一定知道譬如說紅旗警訊等等的對於一些企業它可能會爆發將來會爆發一些金融上面的問題一定會有一些警訊的那個那個例子跟sample在那裡那是不是國防部有這種東西那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8844.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8856.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
當然就是未來在教育軍人的時候可以用到那如果是不是國防部有那有可以提供我一份讓我參考嗎您是說有關吸收的共諜的方 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8857.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8879.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
就是他成為就是他從正常的一個軍人愛國愛家的一個軍人後來變成反而是提供資料給對岸的共諜那他的風險可能是什麼就我剛剛跟您提到了就像商場中的紅旗警訊的這個概念什麼樣的狀況下他可能會有那個高風險的情況發生我希望說國安部能不能給我們一個這個資料讓我參考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8882.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8911.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
呃 我想剛剛政戰局有提到大概有幾個吸收的一些手法那當然財務是一個是一個那個所以剛剛徐委員也有在問到緊按貸款的這個部分我們也要現在正在跟行政局溝通有一個緊按貸款那所以財務的部分也有可能是一個那這樣喔 部長因為時間的關係我想說齁財務這個是最低階的思考當然還有其他我剛剛提到信仰等等的可能性啦因為都推給財務或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8911.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8926.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
對當然還有不同的吸收的手法所以我們剛剛有提到有各種各種的另外軍審法的部分我想說因為大家一直講說最近這個共諜案很嚴重應該要加重處罰那加重處罰其實他應該處理的是國安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8927.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8943.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
軍人的話是陸海工軍刑法那這個跟軍審判法關聯性在哪因為部長您是法律人嘛我也非常尊敬您那為什麼您以前說軍審判法沒必要那現在又要重開機因為它對於人民的保障是不夠的啊那我不知道部長您的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8944.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8964.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
跟委員報告兩點第一點就是說因為現在軍審法他事實上他沒有全盤的廢除軍審法的可能的適用也就是說他在這個暫時的情況之下他還是要重新啟動這個軍審法但是因為平時如果沒有做一個軍審法的這個實踐的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8968.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8988.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那麼到了暫時幾乎沒有任何沒有任何的人量來進行所以他這是第一個第二個我已經也一再講過了就是說我對過去的軍審當然受到相關人民的不信任然後相關大法官的解釋所質疑的這個部分我們都會在重開機的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8989.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9005.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
來避免這些違反大法官的質疑然後重新取得人民對於軍審的公平審判跟正當法律程序原則的一個一個一個一個因為時間關係我就講我幾個想要給部長您建議或參考就好第一個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9007.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9025.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
程序上面畢竟他還是對於當事人的保障沒有優於刑事訴訟法所以我們不我先說我對於精神法要不要重新實施我認為有弊也有利所以我沒有下一個定論該或不該這是第一個我先說我不是說有一些人完全反對精神法 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9026.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9042.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那個恢復就是開始那個停止凍結開始使用我沒有所以第一個我是想說我們要去弄清楚法律程序上面對於當事人的保障到底足不足夠那第二個就是說目前回歸到普通法院審理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9044.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9066.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
軍法審判案件他其實是最終的法律審才會走回最高法院那是不是說我們在一二審的事實審的時候要不要考量在事實審的時候就可以在二審就回歸到普通法案我說這個是一個思考的方向因為法律審畢竟他是沒有在考量事實他是尊重一二審調查出來的事實法律審只看法律有沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9066.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9092.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
法律省再走回普通法院的話會不會緩不濟急無法救濟前面的損害這個是再麻煩部長您法律人一定聽得懂我在說什麼那再來就是現在的軍法官他是變成檢察事務官是在各地在桃園地檢等等的那他不是從事審判的工作他可能只是寫起訴書等幫助寫書類那這個再有一天你說要暖機再回過頭去 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9093.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9109.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
再重新重拾這個審判業務的話他會非常的不習慣是不是他們應該要放在司法院在軍審辦法還沒恢復之前他們是不是應該要放在司法院這也是我們一個思考的方向那最後我想說一個PowerPoint我給 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9110.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9132.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
給您看一下 就是我希望國防部一個禮拜內能夠給我一份報告就是有關這個24條跟4條草案的一些問題尤其是你要侵害到退休軍人的退休金這個是一個非常重大的事情所以是不是我們這個退休金的 停止他能夠領退休金的權利的起算 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9133.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9159.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
或者是如何消滅如何恢復等等這個要有一個很完整的資料因為這個東西我們不能讓他變成未來任何一個黨執政之後變成拿來修理他不喜歡的退役軍人的那個條文嘛所以我希望如果國防部就這部分有提出草案那是否這個時間起算點等等的都能夠非常的明確啊這資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9161.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9187.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那個報告給我參考一下那我來了解一下目前國安部的想法就這一點跟委員報告因為它幾個法都有相關性就是這個國安法13條然後還有我們的服役條例還有退伍費的相關的規定現在的內部分工上面就我們是以國安法13條作為一個法務部主導作為一個基礎那我們其他就來參照這個國安法13條的規定來加以規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9191.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9208.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
所以就這個部分的話可能法務部國安法的13條定案了之後我們就同步來進行草案的修正所以這個部分的話可能是可能要主要還是要看最後法務部定案的那個國安法13條 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9209.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9227.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
部長 這個你們是怎麼法之間的牽連性這個我都能夠理解啦那是不是說你們現有的資料怎麼樣至少給我們參考那我們將來在對法務部的質詢或是對國防部的質詢我們才會有所依據我的立場只是這樣我們再提出我們國防部的意見好 謝謝部長 謝謝各位將軍 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9236.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9251.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
謝謝委員 謝謝部長接下來有請邱志偉委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請郭部長有請部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9260.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9284.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
最近我有機會跟日本前防衛的大臣有一些討論 私底下討論這個講到國防預算中國的國防預算的規模是日本的三倍到四倍中國的國防預算的規模是台灣的四十倍這個預算的差距 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9285.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9304.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
我們必須要考量當我們的援軍沒有辦法及時到的時候我們要有自主防衛能量自主防衛能量一定要有足夠的國防預算來支援所以目前我們目標日本2027要提到GDP的2% |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9306.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9334.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
2027他們的目標他們是以每年差不多好像是0.2的程度然後一直到2027到一定的年沒有他告訴我2027到2%嘛我最近看到的好像他是逐步在提升當中他跟我講的嘛他跟我講的2027到2%嘛我會朝向這個目標我們是希望徵詢能夠到3%我那天在院會質詢這個卓院長他說3%是我們階段性的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9335.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9355.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那美國也希望說我們再提高到3.4不管到3%或3.4%當然這預算規模很大但是跟中國的國防預算規模的差距還是很大所以我覺得應該逐步啊來增加這個國防預算佔GDP的比例那部長你有沒有什麼想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9357.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9379.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
總統已經宣示了3%是我們要達到另外我想如果總統的意思上來看的話3%也不是最後的一個底線還有可能往上增加不過重點是在於我們這個要依照我們防衛作戰的實際需要這個是因為我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9381.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9387.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
中國這麼大,那我們不可能跟他比這個所以我們不對稱的這個關鍵戰力總統說要編列特別預算,你這期程有沒有規劃? |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9398.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9410.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我們當然正在進行規劃你這個回答比較抽象,也速度比較慢我們會後再討論,繼續請教第二個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9417.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9440.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
這個我們用FMS跟DCS 日本也面臨同樣的問題他們也會分散對其他美國之外國家的相關軍事合作比方說他們跟義大利 比方說他們跟英國去次世代的戰機的研發所以FMS跟DCS 為什麼提到DCS因為它有助於對美貿易逆差的平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9441.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9463.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
對美國貿易順差的平衡我想請教我們採用FMS DCS是您決定還是軍種的司令決定還是美國做決定我們基本上跟委員報告我們如果能夠採取軍售的管道的話那主要當然是跟美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9465.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9492.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
才有這個軍售的管道嘛那原則上如果有軍售的這個管道那又能夠縮短這個軍售的流程的話我們還是會以軍售為主但如果沒有辦法不適宜透過軍售的我們就會改採商售的方式有些非機敏性比方說旅遊採購F35非機敏性的比方說一些這個裝備的維持 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9494.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9523.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
也沒有相關的高端技術的管制所以這部分我們有五大信貸產業包括軍工我們怎麼樣透過DCS來協助軍工產業的發展這個很重要日本防衛廳他給我們訊息是有些是要美國會決定一定要採取FMS大部分不會大部分就是看你自己的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9524.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9551.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
所以DCS跟FMS我的理解是國內來做決定那國內我了解三軍 軍種各有不同的本位思考有些軍種他比較傾向於這個軍購即便軍購他的這個效率契約的保障他的成本也比較貴他還是會採用軍購 我不知道什麼原因有些軍種卻反而會接受從成本考量 從這個契約的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9552.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9578.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
你商售它有受缺的管制軍售沒有喔所以這部分你們要特別注意到這一點所以我覺得每項重大的國中採購你要走FMS還是DCS我希望部長您能夠掌握您能夠理解是我們這邊會有部裡面的連參報上來之後我這邊會有掌握還是你叫軍總自行去決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9579.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9605.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
沒有 軍種一定要到你那邊所以每個軍售案子你都會了解是好我看一下這比較表國防自主航太產業第三章對外軍售跟對內的自己相關的這個研發經費我們是給國外國內沒有所以如果是對內 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9607.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9635.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
我們是用這個對內的方式來用DCS它對國內相當常常可以合作漢翔是我們的這個航帶產業重要的一個龍頭也是在我的選區對不對它如果能夠把這些技術把這些生產能量留在台灣企業也有收入對軍工產業也有幫忙為什麼這比例還是要走FIMS |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9637.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9660.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
所以這個原則你們要把握清楚一定要非國防自主非尖端性非機敏性的美國沒有特別意見的基本上如果把商源留在國內帶動五大西端產業軍工產業發展我想這個很重要我希望每一項到底要FMS還是DCS我希望部長都能夠深切去掌握因為我有接到一些訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9662.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9676.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
本來應該很合理,用常識來判斷,不用用專業知識來判斷,用常識來判斷,應該走DCS結果莫名其妙就非得走FMS,你要去了解一下我們不討論個案,我討論到我所理解的狀況我想我把這個問題丟出來,你們去檢討一下,我說這個一定有所本 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9689.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9704.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
報告我們現在手裡頭29個軍售案裡面都是我們目前自主能力上面比較不足的必須採取向對外採購的方式那當然我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9705.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9727.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我掌握有很多國內做會比軍種產還好而且兩岸變成結果兩岸變成結果在你們的工合會議室基本上是贊成DCS後來在某些軍種就變成叫FMS這部分你去了解 這轉折到底是合不合理你們去了解 我不討論個案另外兩領請 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9732.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9760.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
在陳水扁總統任內撤除了兩獎臨請桃園縣政府當時候是朱立倫當縣長一紙公文說為了這個地方觀光所需啊地方觀光所需請國防部再恢復原來的這個所謂兩獎臨請臨請是帝王的墳墓臨請的所謂衛兵的守護工作從97年到現在一紙公文 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9761.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9783.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
好 請教部長如果為了振興所需 其他縣市能不能比較辦理我高雄市有義民廟我能不能請義民廟 到義民廟來這邊來做相關的守護或者操演為了觀光所需 國軍要配合地方的觀光業務嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9788.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9815.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
從97年到現在那你現在說後來我那天問你你答不出來後來你們給我公文我才知道怎麼回事是因為桃園縣政府要求你們一紙公文叫你們為了配合地方觀光發展現在還 你調查一下去兩場領請一年去多少次去多少人我們需要花那麼多納稅的人錢去為獨裁者去墳墓做這些事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9817.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9846.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
跟委員報告,我覺得根本的解決之道就我了解在民國93年1月27號蔣芳良女士還在世的時候曾經致函本部表達這個宜林安奉五指山國軍四萬公墓的一個意願所以如果能夠採取蔣芳良女士的這個遺願的這樣的一個做法,可能是一個根本的解決之道你那個是落後資訊,97年陳水扁總統任內就已經撤除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9847.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9858.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
是因為一紙公文才恢復的這個公文這個是你們的公文給我的當時確實前總統陳勝明先生是有批示啦那我覺得也曾經撤出過一段時間啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9860.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9879.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
不是,就是說他當時是說批示說尊重家屬的意願,因國葬法的統慎辦理,用事尊重就這個部分我想如果說還是以這個能夠宜林安鳳的話,我想這才是可能根本的解決之道那97年到現在多久了? |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9881.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9906.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那我想我們再來持續溝通你派駐一隊國軍進駐在兩蔣臨請的依據是什麼就是桃園縣政府一紙公文嘛那我問你是不是其他縣政府可以比照辦理呢那你那個部長不能回答這個是哪一個待會負責督導的這後備司令部 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9908.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9931.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我講的有沒有錯委員好 這個有關委員剛剛提的那個領請的部分那針對領請這幾個字 後備指揮部在針對你們要檢討這個我知道啦 是是是但是我說的是你們當初派出的依據是什麼你們給我的公文答覆是依依為豪營縣政府一紙公文嘛為了地方振興地方觀光所需嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9931.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9952.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
沒有錯吧 是你們去檢討一下如果這樣子的話 其他縣市能不能比照辦理鮑委員 針對這件事情我們已經通令我們已經發文給桃園市政府預計在5月10號以前會邀集總統府行政院及桃園市政府等單位來做一個研討及做一個修訂但後續各縣市政府都會比照這一次的辦理我們在5月10號前會開一個聯審會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9955.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9978.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
如果我不質詢 我不要求 這個問題永遠 永遠加在那邊永遠就是 你轉型沒有辦法去執行我覺得你們要積極一點 是 部長你要全盤掌握 部長也許你這個 國事如馬恐怕沒有辦法針對這件事情全盤掌握我希望說 後備指揮官能夠跟部長再詳細說明因為經濟快輪到我質詢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9981.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9982.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
好,謝謝,謝謝部長好,謝謝韋 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9987.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10012.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
謝謝委員 謝謝部長接下來我們有請蘇清泉委員上台質詢蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在接下來有請徐欣盈委員上台質詢徐欣盈委員徐欣盈徐欣盈委員不在接下來有請楊瓊英委員上台質詢楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在接下來有請葉元之委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10013.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10034.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
葉元芝 葉元芝 葉元芝委員不在 接下來有請鄭振淺委員上台質詢鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在那好 那已登記質詢的委員出不在場 外軍已發言完畢 報告及詢答結束那本人會議有林毅君委員跟黃仁委員提出書面質詢 列入記錄並刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10035.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10052.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
委員書面及口頭諮詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料再請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員另約定其現場從期鎖定那今天議程所列的法案這個在另定期繼續審查那本日會議到此結束散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10175.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10176.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO |