| IVOD_ID |
165922 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165922 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
13 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-26T12:53:51+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-26T13:09:03+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:12 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f5b16bee5fdcc5c15d56dcea81616545ba7bab90aa47d9996b85b67e8a2bbb38135377653bbc0bde5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳瑩 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:53:51 - 13:09:03 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部及環境部就「蘇丹紅化學原料竄臺，政府如何強化進口把關及後市場查驗，以維護國人健康安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
邀請衛生福利部部長、司法院、法務部、勞動部及內政部警政署就「國內醫師、護理人力需求及分布暨防止醫療暴力措施及改善情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
(討論事項)
審查
一、委員柯志恩等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
二、委員林月琴等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
三、委員王育敏等16人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
四、委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
五、委員萬美玲等16人擬具「醫療法第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
六、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
七、委員邱若華等17人擬具「醫療法第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
八、委員陳菁徽等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
九、委員魯明哲等18人擬具「醫療法第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
十、委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
十一、委員林淑芬等25人擬具「醫療法增訂第一百條之一條文草案」案。
十二、委員盧縣一等16人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
十三、委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
十四、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「醫療法第二十四條及第一百零六條條文修正草案」案。
【第十四案，如經復議，則不予審查】【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答，討論事項僅詢答】） |
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謝謝主席喔 那麻煩請石部長還有 機關署羅署長羅署長好 曾議員好部長好 署長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
23.643 |
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49.393 |
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我相信這個醫護人力不足的問題已經發生很長的一段時間了那我相信衛福部也已經盡量的在薪資權益工作管理還有支持上投注相當大的心力只是說截至目前為止成效整體看來不是很顯著這就表示問題沒有掌握的很清楚有必要就是再釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
50.713 |
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前提是我们不能一直要求说每一位护理人员他们都要有人医护人员都要有人心人数啊或者护理人员要有南丁格尔的精神啊我们要从人的角度去看待这些问题同时呢有很多的这个医疗专业人力其实也是不足的例如说这个医事放射师也就比较少被关注那因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
75.914 |
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104.515 |
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今天我想说就来跟我们两位优秀的医师跟首长一起来讨论先请教署长从这个卫福部的定义您现在算是职业医师吗是我现在有职业登记在疾管署的健康中心好那在您担任公职之前服务的单位是什么服务了多久台大医院从2003年到2008年就是五年期间担任住院医师从内科第一年做到内科第五年 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
105.444 |
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126.71 |
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好 那您在機關署服務的第一份工作公職是什麼就是防疫醫師 當時是防疫醫師考試招生考試進來的好 所以就是除了公職醫師高考以外轉任公職還有需要什麼樣的考試資格嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
128.198 |
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152.898 |
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我沒有通過高考但是就是有醫事人員任用條例所以可以用醫事人員的方式招募進疾管署好 謝謝我想羅署長的防疫專業跟認真負責是大家有目共睹的衛福部也有其他很多優秀的醫師也擔任公職也都沒有在職業 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
154.699 |
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那我們也發現就是醫師在轉換擔任這個公職的跑道其實也沒有很困難那我相信部長跟羅署長還有我想江署長也一樣跟這個多數的公務人員醫師您請坐不用上台那也選擇擔任這個職務其實是真的就是犧牲奉獻的精神那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
181.696 |
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195.792 |
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最直接的就是收入減少了非常多因此大家幾乎對你們都是抱持肯定的態度相對的如果轉換跑道 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
197.23 |
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217.582 |
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很容易那收入沒有減少又變高如果是這樣的狀況我們一直要求人家留在臨床喔可能就非常困難了那部長我要請教就是說公職護理師轉任這個負責行政的公務人員是不是需要其他的這個考試資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
220.472 |
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248.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
如果是目前我們有機關購如果你是在機構就是醫院裡頭是比較容易從那個約聘人員變成這個正職的人員就變成有公務人員身份 這個比較容易但是如果是要跨到機關因為有這個人員任用的資格的限制就不是那麼容易 要看單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
249.022 |
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270.024 |
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好那這個但是有難到什麼樣的狀態嗎因為現在基本上我們不是以衛福部來講我們很多是要衛生行政或者是那個衛生技術才能夠任用所以就沒有辦法直接直接轉換了 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
271.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
297.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
好我想這個跟他的男喔應該是就是額度就是名額名額不多啦原額上比較少一點的困難啦那這個薪資待遇福利喔是不是跟一般公務人員一樣就是以衛福部的這個科長薪資水準大概有八九萬但一般醫院的這個資深護理師能跟得上這樣的水平嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
300.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
312.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
資深的護理師要看他是做了幾年還有沒有擔任行政職 等等不一樣落在四五萬比較居多吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
314.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
342.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
这个可以再回头了解一下啦但是你说到八九万领到这么多可能也不多啦可能要到主管要有这个主管职的所以如果有机会的话转任条件不困难那我相信多数人还是会选择担任公职而不是留在医疗院所去轮夜班啦那这个牺牲正常作息跟社会互动牺牲正常作息跟社会互动的机会其实这些都是考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
344.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
363.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那部長我再請教你知不知道這個一般這個醫院的這個護理人力被誰偷走被偷走多少被偷走被搶走被偷走被流向是不是就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
364.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
390.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
就怎么样流失嘛主要原因嘛现在我们看每年的这个护理的值登的变动情形是在医院的值登的成长是变少了到这个诊所啊还有长照机构啦等等这些是增加中好你有点出几个但是你还有漏了一个大漏洞那 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
392.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
398.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這樣好了 部長你知不知道勞動部有一個執法叫做職業健康保護規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
400.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
423.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這裡面第三條規定事業單位勞工人數在300人以上或從事特別危害健康作業之勞工人數在50人以上者應視其規模及性質雇用從事勞工健康服務之護理人員辦理勞工健康服務那第四條規定事業單位勞工人數在50人以上未達300人者應該視其規模性質 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
428.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
454.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
特約醫護人員辦理臨場健康服務那我要請教你了你知道我們國內50人以上的這個中小企業總共有幾家嗎這個就沒有掌握好那我再請教我國200人以上的大型企業總共有幾家不清楚好那我跟你講這個驚人的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
456.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
468.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
光是200人以上的大型企業就有將近2萬家你可以做一下數學我們要流失多少護理人員很恐怖吧你嘴巴都開了好那這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
471.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
492.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這些這個就是他們這些企業都必須依法僱用專任的這個償戶人力每家至少一位喔至少一位他們多請也是可以的那這樣子就已經吸納走幾萬名的這個護理人員了那另外喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
494.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
515.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
50人到200人的中型企業我認為至少也有幾萬家因為我們的中小企業截至目前為止登記就有171萬多了你們可以算算看就是你們可能要回頭好好的去盤算一下去盤點一下50人以上的到底總共有幾家 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
517.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
533.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以这些几万家他们都是要这个特约受雇于管理顾问公司的常户去服务那这些事业单位到底吸收了吸纳了多少的护理人力所以我今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
535.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
560.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我想部長你剛剛有舉例啦長照啦診所啦你就是沒有提到這個因為你可能忘了還是不知道有這個執法因為這個執法勞動部自己就可以決定了所以只要兩年的這個護理工作經驗再加上52小時的這個職業健康教育訓練就可以得到這個治安署他們就可以得到治安署的訓練證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
561.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
588.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
然後就轉任了這麼容易然後你看一下他們52小時都在學什麼就是你們看一下簡報比較奇怪了勞工選工配工復工概論人因性危害預防概論還有當然勞工健康保護相關法規看起來有點關係但是護理人員是要去學法規的嗎所以我想這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
590.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
597.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
52小時偷走你們幾萬的護理人力很恐怖吧那薪資福利待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
599.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
627.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我想不会比在医疗院所查结果你们看问题呢都只看到就是说留下来的护理人员的问题那你们都没有去思考留出去的人力是到底是怎么样留出去的不瞒您说不久之前呢有位这个护理师呢请我们办请我们办公室帮忙推荐他们要他要去哪里他要进台积电去做厂户成为台积电的正式员工 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
628.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
655.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
想想看去那裡很開心啊多少人夢寐以求啊你光年終就可以分多少啊誰還要待在醫院呢對不對那麼台灣50人以上的企業我們現在部長不知道有多少家啦那但是當初做出這樣決定的時候衛福部難道你們不知道會吸納多少護理人才嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
657.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
684.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
所以這個他們轉入了這個勞動部的職業健康領域當時是110年111年更改的防疫期間大家你們整個部會上下全部都在忙著處理COVID-19就是這個時候被勞動部趁虛而入 趁機偷襲搶走了 偷走了這麼多的這個人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
686.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
702.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以希望你們可以了解一下這幾年到底轉出了多少人力他們做的業務是不是真的有益我相信在這個廠房裡面嚴重一點的還是要送醫院啦簡單的應該自己可以處理啦那到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
702.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
719.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
就是說如果沒有的話那你們應該跟勞動部討論一下喔否則齁勞動部做的這件事情他在表面上美其名喔他是 他賺了美名啊因為因為他們好像名義上就是好像在照顧勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
720.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
734.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
但是呢 實質上他們是傷害了全國國人的健康權益我要在這裡很嚴正的指出這個問題那我也相信護理人才短缺絕對不是說衛福部單一部門你們就可以解決的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
736.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
761.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那最後本席要強調就是醫護人力要從這個教育訓練專業資格業務職長工作條件然後一直到這個職業的這個醫療院所都是專屬醫療法律未接的規定是經過非常嚴格跟專業的訓練但是呢這些法案當然這些法案都是要經過這個立法院審議通過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
763.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
789.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那今天呢 治安署他們卻只用一個執法一個行政規定就這樣悄悄的偷走了你們這一群已經是幾百個學分幾百個實習時數然後養成培訓出來的專業人力就這樣子流失掉了他們都是負責我國人民的健康最重要的臨床照護但是只要52個小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
791.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
792.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
他们就不见了这么容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
794.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
821.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以我擔心這個不是我們國家的福分那你們的人才呢看起來都不用阿嬌阿出手就這樣輕易的流出了然後也都不再接受你們衛福部的這個監督管轄我相信勞動部職安署沒有這個專業能力去監督管理這麼專業的醫護人員他們也沒有能力去評估說到底怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
822.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
835.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
去發揮他們的他們有沒有發揮他們的專業能力所以因為這個治安署他們裡面沒有任何一個人是公務人員他們沒有任何一個公務人員是醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
837.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
861.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以他們也沒有這個醫療行政的專業思維去看待是不是浪費了國家人才的專業能力所以我希望部長你們好好盤點一下到底流出去多少人力然後你們的專業用你們專業去評估這幾年他們到底做出了什麼績效那為什麼一定要偏偏就是要醫師跟護理師難道公共衛生是不行嗎那職業衛生技師不行嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
863.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
888.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
如果勞動部真的這麼需要產戶我建議他們自己去教育自己去養成不要偷你們的訓練出來的人才嘛所以不要從這個國家嚴重已經短缺醫護人力開出這麼大缺口的情況下我認為衛福部就是說對全國醫療院所對全體的國人你們這樣就開這樣的缺口其實對國人是不公平的 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
889.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
910.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
謝謝委員提醒我們來了解一下掌握這些人員的動向同時也來理解這個他的這個主要的工作的內容那是不是有多元化這個人才羅志的可能性這樣好謝謝那你們會需要多少時間呢我們去盤點一下大概一個月內我們把它盤一下好謝謝 |