| IVOD_ID |
16585 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16585 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2025040742 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-10T13:30:05+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-10T15:26:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:55:55 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcdf824e3382b7a8d090bc5fd07a8de6114af80a8cb003b9ba34f417dc1d45d1b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-10T14:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等27人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」、委員林思銘等16人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第三十七章章名及第三百六十四條條文草案」及委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第十章之一、第一百七十二條之一及第一百七十二條之二條文草案」等7案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:30:05 - 15:26:00 |
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我們現在開始協商會議協商進行前我們先介紹道場委員跟機關代表我們先介紹道場委員羅志強委員黃國昌委員我們接著介紹道場的機關代表法務部政次黃士傑政次 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2067.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2095.79 |
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司法院刑事廳法官吳元耀法官其餘沒有介紹的到場官我想說各位就參照我們的意思路我們今天協商司法及法治委員會報告並案審查台灣民眾黨黨團離去中華民國刑法部分修正條文草案等七案 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2098.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2098.741 |
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嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2100.506 |
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2125.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
好那我們本案審查是在114年1月6號審查完畢那審查情形是各題案及修正動議均保留送院會處理並決議院會討論前交由黨團協商那我們現在進行協商協商時請參閱協商條文對照表及審查報告那與會員如果有修正動議或機關有建議內容請提出書面印發現場進行討論好那我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2130.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2154.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
請問一下出席的黨團代表有沒有要表示意見好 那請出席黨團代表表示意見第一個是 妨礙司法公正罪跟棄保檢討我想應該斯卡古斯會議結論蠻清楚的只是拖延了非常非常久那程序上我只有兩個問題第一個是民進黨黨團要不要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2160.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2178.305 |
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沒有來我們可以進行嗎這是第一個問題第二個問題是法務部你們有沒有要提建議的對岸有要提還是沒有要提是不是可以先請法務部先說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2180.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2200.939 |
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好 可以啊 接著我們介紹莊瑞雄委員 三黨的代表都已經到場了那我們現在先請出席的機關代表 先就意見表示或是還有剛剛黃委員所諮詢的 那我們是請黃政次能夠說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2203.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2226.792 |
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好謝謝主席那我想這個本次所協商的條文的內容在113年7月11日跟114年的1月6日兩次在委員會進行審查那本部兩次都列席那並且對於各該版本的條文都有提出書面的意見那麼本部的立場呢這個對於這一個相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2231.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2256.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這個提案的方向以及修正修法的目的均表支持跟贊同那麼事實上的本部可以說也從108年的9月17日就擬據相關的條文草案呈報行政院審查那麼可以看得出來這個各委員所擬據版本也跟過去本部所 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2257.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2272.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
預告的這個條文是可以說是一個很雷同的方向但是他也請各位委員這個注意就是說我們這個在兩次的修正兩次委員會審查中所提出來意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2273.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2298.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
就是對於各該條文也就是其實也就是針對我們當初預告的版本事實上在行政院審查過程中發現有諸多的問題跟這個錯漏所以在行政院審查的過程已經做了很多的調整跟修正那麼客證在行政院已經進入審查最後階段那因為行政院還未定案那麼本部代理法院並沒有單獨提案權 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2299.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2315.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所以我們已經可能沒有辦法就是直接將這些條文的文字內容拿出來但是我們對各該條文都已經有相關的這個指書相關的問題跟人需研議的地方那麼前兩次的書面資料也請採閱以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2318.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2339.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我這邊也說明一下我們本案在去年7月還有今年1月的時候審查時審查會都有請法不能夠請訴提出行政院的版本但到今天協商前還是沒有看到結果那就如同剛剛政次所說的目前可能還沒有辦法提出來我們接著介紹陳佩瑜委員陳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2344.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2360.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
好 那如果這樣的話 那是不是我們就請問一下民進黨團這裡有沒有要表示意見有啊 就是在我們桌上都有啊寫上條文對照表 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2362.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2378.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
一條一條來就對了對 謝謝現在是先請大家有沒有就...OK 好 謝謝我們召委還有我們列席的官員還有我們黃委員 羅委員那我想這個不管是161條跟172這個從 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2384.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2398.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這個依法逮捕拘禁之人的脫逃罪這個部分還有妨礙司法公證罪的部分我從上次這條文到現在我有一些疑惑到現在還是未解未解也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2399.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2416.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這個條文我到現在還比較沒有辦法了解說它真正要處理的是什麼規範有它規範的一個意義在也就是說像譬如說你社會上發生了些什麼那是不是我們現行的規定不足以去做規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2418.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2445.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
或者說現行的一個規範裡面對於現在社會上發生的事情我們不足以去處理它或者威嚇它像譬如說現在161條我上次也表達過意見今天這所有的條文都沒有任何黨派之分反而在現場我看光榮園這也都是法學專業然後各位都是法學專業我再來提出救教就是說我們161條 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2448.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2463.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
很顯然的就是要把刑罰去做一個加重就依法逮捕居姓之人的偷逃本來是一年以下有期徒刑現在變成要三年以下把刑度提高變三倍那是不是法務部這個地方也做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2464.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2488.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這幾年裡面這樣的情況多嘛脫逃罪是不是特別嚴重所以我們必須要來提高為三倍這第一個問題第二個問題就是說我比較沒有辦法理解的是我縱放這個條文在90年就修過了我們當初條文的設計就是說我自己跑掉是一年以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2492.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2508.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
就比較符合人性嘛那我如果去放掉你三年我當初是說你自己跑掉的是一年如果你是去把人家放掉的是三年那你現在就變成說不管了放掉的是三年 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2509.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2526.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
自己跑掉了我也是三年這個邏輯我確實是不懂我針對這幾個條文我都是在談一個法律的邏輯大家如果認為有必要彼此說服有道理我也可以支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2527.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2544.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個都沒有在講什麼國民黨民眾黨民進黨都沒有我完全在講我莊烈雄個人講我個人我對法律我是這樣的一個理解所以我請法務部可以提出一個說明就是說我們現在脫逃的部分被逮捕激進的人跑掉的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2545.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2565.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
往年你們去做比較你們做比較說這個確實增加了這個現行的法律規定不足以威嚇那我也可以贊同那或者是認為說我們這個條文這個已經太久了這個我們要與時俱進那與時俱進我們要把它提高那我也可以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2566.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2591.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那但是你把161條你要把它拉高三倍的刑責的時候那自己去把它放掉的部分我們原來設計是三年是自行脫逃的三倍那這個是不是我們是不是條文在修訂的時候也要一併去做考慮這我是一直上次講說法務部你必須要去思考這樣的一個問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2592.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2618.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那你們如果我從頭到尾我都不表達我贊成跟反對是我對這個條文設計邏輯上的一個疑慮看起來你們都沒有啊我相信鍾憲文我這樣提很合理吧一個法律人我們就這樣的一個思考就是說你自己跑掉的是一年我們當初設計就是你重放了一頂殼物啊這三倍啊我們現在把它拉的都一樣了這個邏輯在什麼地方邏輯在什麼我們到底要處理什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2623.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2639.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我這點我先就教我們法務部這個地方啦還有各位如果認為我這樣是不對的也請你們來做指教因為我可能腦袋瓜也比較老了一點也不一定這個法學時潮有什麼新的一個進步我沒有去注意到我請就教大家報告主席我們請我們的市長來補充說明好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2650.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2676.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
主席各位委員次長各位先請大家午安有關於脫逃罪在近十年來的統計數字來講的話都是維持在數十人然後總共在近十年來是總共有偵查新收案件450人偵查終結案件447人那人數也是有偏多的情況那我們這一次修法要提高脫逃罪的刑度各位的各位版本的修正草案的提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2678.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2705.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
脫逃罪的刑度的部分也是考量說因為我們在刑法在24年以來在脫逃罪的構成要件及刑度上面都沒有做任何的更動再加上在防害司法公證罪章裡面也有針對棄保潛逃罪有做了一個新的修正草案的提出那考量兩者的刑度的部分還有法醫嚴重輕重的程度還是有必須要做相關的調整這是反映了現實的狀況的需求謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2708.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2733.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
你沒有解釋啊你這樣解釋第一個我可以接受啊但是你要合併去看啊你161你必須要跟162合併來看啊不是嗎你如果161你拉到三年然後你162你說你提升到五年你有一個邏輯這樣我還可以接受啊那你修法只修一個條文我也覺得好奇怪啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2734.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2754.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我覺得啦我邏輯上我就認為這樣奇怪我真的我講的話你們法務部真的認為我講的都沒道理不是這個意思不是我這個沒有黨派喔我這個條文我也不護航喔我是從頭在審這個條文的時候我是基於我個人的確信除非我真的那麼落伍了有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2761.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2786.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
有關於脫逃罪所侵害的法例的話是有關於國家拘禁作用的破壞那還包含了對於妨害司法公正的一個傷害所以這個法例侵害的嚴重程度是有的所以有提高刑度的必要那至於跟縱放人犯162條等條同一張的這個規定的話其實其他條文是否有並同調整刑度的必要這當然是可以再繼續研議的地方本部並沒有反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2789.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2817.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
黃委員剛先舉手,麻煩黃委員第一個,莊委員的看法其實我們上前兩次審查的時候都聆聽過了,我也都尊重不過剛剛其實聽我們主管機關他們表達的意見莊委員應該可以理解,在這個問題上面主管機關也是贊成提高刑律的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2818.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2835.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
第三個部分你所關注的事情因為他侵害國家法律的本質是同意的那這是為什麼在日本刑法針對這兩個侵害同一個國家法律他們所刻意的法定刑的範圍是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2837.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2865.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那這個我們當初提案的時候全部都有做通盤的考慮跟處理那當然如果說其他委員認為說你還是要有一些差別不要三年以下要提兩年以下等等那我覺得我們都尊重因為顯然這個事情在整個法例的權衡上面我們參考了日本的立法例 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2867.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2895.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
橫出我國那麼久沒有去針對這條更動行路以及過去這幾年來說發生案件的狀況以及在社會上面對於這種行為太陽必須要予以加重處罰的期待那最後也是這裡為什麼要做調整因為這裡不調整的話你後面那個聚寶潛逃的部分那個空間會非常的窄 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2896.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2916.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
因為一個是已經被拘禁起來跑掉另外一個是拒保以後再跑掉你如果前面這個不動你後面這個法定刑根本沒有辦法去做任何的處理綜合上面這樣的因素所以我們才提出這樣子修正草案的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2917.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2933.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
這個修正草案的內容跟當初不管是在世界國事會議甚至是法務部他們自己提出來的條文最起碼就刑度的部分應該方向上面是一致的以上提供給專委員做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2936.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2952.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
好 謝謝那我們接下來請陳委員好 謝謝主席那如果按照剛剛您這邊法務部這邊的說法那我想要一併請問我們就是從161就是在藍白的版本裡面有提到如果有必須要加重 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2952.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2981.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
根據本刑犯然後去加重到二分之一如果我們回頭來看在刑法的二分之一如果要加重期刑到二分之一的規定在刑法裡面現在有兩種樣態那如果我有講錯再麻煩更正第一個是當事人或者是被害人具有特定身份的時候像是殺害直系的血親尊親屬或者是公務員包庇罪行的時候我們必須有加重期刑至二分之一這是第一個第二個是用特定的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2981.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3001.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
有特定的方式在法律要件當中刑事犯罪像是電子通訊啦網際網路在313裡面像這個方法妨害行用罪這個是在刑法裡面整部刑法裡面對於所謂加重起刑到二分之一的規定好那如果這個邏輯在原來的刑法裡面是成立的話那我就不懂的是現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3003.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3024.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
提出來的修正版本裡面呢是以涉犯最輕本刑三年以上的有期徒刑之罪而犯第一項之罪也就是逃亡的部分得加重期刑到二分之一基本上他們這個鎖定的樣態跟我剛剛講的兩個樣態截然的不同那所以這個部分也是法務部認為合理的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3025.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3039.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
也是可以成立的嗎那也許可以請你們做說明那在這個刑法體系裡面如果你這件事情是要成立的話那如同剛剛莊委員所提醒的會不會有其他的條文要一併來調整我現在講的是整個刑法體系的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3041.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3065.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
還有如果是德加重的話那什麼情況下德什麼情況下不需要什麼情況下應我覺得這也還是要回到整個立法體系的問題那如果你的立法一直所要保護的是所謂的妨害司法公正跟對國家居住作用的破壞這個是你原本要保護的法益那這個德這個事情的態度法務部要不要也說明一下你們的態度是覺得要更積極 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3066.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3087.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
用因還是你們覺得這個方法也可以就可以達到您剛剛所說的保護這個法益的部分還有就是我個人認為像這個寫法加重期刑的方法到底是回到民間務實的狀態來說到底是希望當事人因此不敢逃亡還是逃了更不想回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3088.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3097.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
還是要加重他逃亡的意念我覺得這整件事情回到整個刑法體系來講我其實還是需要法務部就這個部分給我們回答 謝謝那個陳委員我這邊先解釋一下因為法務部並沒有提版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3104.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3117.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
然後這個剛剛您說的那個加重的部分的版本是羅委員還有民眾黨黨團的版本也是民眾黨黨團的條文沒有啊你直接看161嘛對你們的是寫在161對啊我161上面哪裡有寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3122.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3138.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
國民黨主席我們剛剛不確定到底是要整體討論還是要逐條因為剛剛主席有沒有回應我們目前是逐條討論那是不是法務部這邊先回覆回覆完之後161的部分好沒問題謝謝主席謝謝那麻煩法務部說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3139.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3153.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
好 謝謝因為這個剛剛陳委員所提的其實這個在161和161之一的其他部分其實都有出現那我們對於這一個就是有一個共同的現象就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3155.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3176.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
各委員的版本或是黨員黨團版本在不同的地方可能都有救如果被發現他潛逃或是脫逃的被告假設他涉犯的本罪就是他本來原本被 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3177.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3204.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
被抓起來的那一個罪的這個刑度這個有的是寫罪行本刑三年以上有的是寫這個宣告刑或鎖定實行刑在五年以上等等那這個其實在實務上會有一個問題也就是說這個我們其實在前兩次的這一個這個書面報告裡面我們都有分別指出來針對不同這個黨團或是委員的版本裡面都有提出來說因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3207.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3228.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這個脫逃或者是棄保潛逃發生的時間點其實是沒有只限制在這個判刑確定之後也就是說他可能還在偵查中或審判中甚至他可能還沒有經過任何一個有罪判決去確定到底他所涉犯的這個罪名或者是這個已經宣告過任何的這個宣告刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3229.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3256.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以如果是以這樣的規定方式來訂定的話其實是有可能這個會沒有辦法適用也就是說根本用不到或者是說這一個會在未來判決確定之後針對這個部分又可能重複再去提起再審或是非常上述針對這個脫逃罪的部分所以這個部分這樣的規定方式我們是比較不建議的以上說明這個在我們之前的說明報告裡面都有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3257.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3267.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
好 謝謝 那請問一下那個羅委員有沒有要說明這個部分沒有齁好 好 鐘 鐘委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3269.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3295.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
主席我一併再來做一個補充說明其實這一個條文以台灣民眾黨的部分其實它那個條文裡面我是第一項我有不同的一個看法第二 第三我反而又沒有意見但是我們如果再一併審查的話我們今天也沒有說以誰的版本羅委員剛好也在場 羅志強委員在場羅志強委員他的部分是 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3295.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3317.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
他把被告受到拘保責負限制出境或限制出海經合法船沒有正當理由不到場發布通緝者他也一併放在這個地方也都是三年以下所以今天到底我們要先採誰的版本如果一併要去講的話那這個地方又是 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3320.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3346.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
兩個條文的態樣其實是完全不同一個是在公權力在掌握之下的那另外一種是已經依託了公權力據保了或者是責負了那這個也是一同那當然就是三年以下那像譬如說我這次舉一個例子我跟樓梓祥我們兩個打架或者我罵你 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3347.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3370.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
罵你以後警察也會抓我啊 獻刑犯來逮捕吧那逮捕以後是九千塊 要不要我拒保啊甚至不用 就說好啦 你的好同事 趙偉 吳宗憲我就折付給他 他就把我帶走了我就離開了 離開以後 船換不到艇我要變三年 我是餘歷這個 我的本罪這麼輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3372.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3389.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我的本罪搞不好就是 搞不好都不用判刑搞不好我們兩個說 哎 兄弟 笑啊 意識攻防難免大家講話會比較吵來吵去你也說沒事結果呢 我們兩個沒事了以後 可是我因為你這個條文 我要三年以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3392.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3409.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
審法案你應該知道我的風格審法案我就說大家來討我怕你沒有考慮到的或者說我沒有考慮到你彼此來做一個提醒我是擔心條文這樣的一個設計會變成說輕罪到最後啊沒事有時候那個本罪不見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3410.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3427.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那又多了這樣的一個罪,而且還是告訴奶論的,還是告訴奶論的,人家小白害不害怕,或是摩托車小龍,發生一個車禍的現場,警察也到現場來了,你到底是故意撞人家的,還是過失的,不知道,抓起來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3428.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3442.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
好啦 到檢察官那邊去有時候檢察官聽了這個警察人員的稱訴以後一萬塊交保 交保回去了兩個人和解掉了 下次開庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3443.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3471.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
也不知道檢察官也不知道你們到底有沒有和解再找來你不來三年以下我是覺得條文這樣的設計是不是會產生有這些的一個餘力尤其是針對這種告訴乃論之罪的部分我知道現在的社會的一個氛圍裡面對這一些很討厭的人你像比如說中文字或者說幾個重大犯罪不管哪一個黨跑掉的這大家都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3473.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3500.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
生物痛覺這些人就是壞蛋我們要處理這些我懂但問題是會不會這個射程會傷及到無辜我們挑問整個設計的時候是不是整個體系一併來做一個思考尤其涉及到真的這些告訴乃論的一個清罪的部分我們貿然這樣的一個制定以後天下大亂以上做這樣的一個說明不然要舉例真的是太多了我可以告訴你如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3501.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3522.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
羅委員這個我知道你在想些什麼你就覺得讓他規範的更縝密一點可是呢如果沒有去做這樣的一個區分的話輕罪也會碰到這樣的一個事情啦那其實這些我上次我也都就教過大家嘛那大家彼此就沒有辦法說服嘛我就不曉得今天來大家有沒有比較更高明的意見我來聆聽啦謝謝羅委員先舉手我們是讓羅委員先說然後羅委員完再請黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3529.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3544.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
其實我覺得剛剛莊烈雄委員的一些說明我覺得真的我是覺得法務部應該要聽進去為什麼一再希望說我們行政院這邊能夠有個版本出來事實上因為確實我們現在是面臨兩種情境 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3546.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3568.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
第一種情境 我先不講重大現在社會關注 包括中文字 林秉文 陳啟玉之前發生的狀況我先不講這些社會重大關注的狀況我單講說現在所謂的棄保潛逃的嚴重性實質上有將近兩成的拒保的案例 是棄保比例達到兩成 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3569.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3593.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
實際上如果說今天我們要保障社會安全要能夠實現我們行事正義那只有七寶潛逃的比重這麼的高那不就是代表我們一個很大的破口那為什麼司法國是會議會有這樣的一個結論那就是希望說我們能夠把這個破口補起來能夠讓我們的社會善良的老百姓多一層保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3594.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3611.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
所以當然我覺得剛剛專選委員講的我覺得有部分我也認同啊那到底說這個刑度的設計有沒有合乎比例性那這當然是可以討論可是我認為是一定要有一個所謂的單獨的一個負責就苛責因為現在來講氣保檢討就是沒事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3615.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3638.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
雖然七保潛牢本來就應該單獨成一個所謂的罪行跟一個判斷那這是為什麼司法國事會議我覺得要有七保潛牢罪這個當時的一個所謂的討論那當然回到這邊我是有點遺憾啦就是說事實上這些很多東西如果有所謂行政部門的一些意見進來既然都認同這個方針進來的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3641.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3654.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
是不是怎麼樣去分辨它的比例性我覺得本來就可以討論但是要把這個漏洞補起來應該是我相信應該是藍綠白三黨以及包括行政部門的共識那比例性怎麼調整那是可以討論但是這個共識這個洞要補我覺得是個共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3657.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3679.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那我覺得這一點我是比較遺憾因為上次我看莊委員有提出來就是也覺得說為什麼我們行政機關這邊不能夠有一個從行政機關角度思考的一個版本出來那這次我覺得是比較遺憾的事情那接下來請黃委員每月從起始 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3683.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3703.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
不要從史凱福,我是唯一開始算從去年開始算第一次院會總諮詢我以為就問這件事情了到現在也超過一年了行政機關請他們提,他們不提我們也沒辦法逼他們真的沒辦法逼他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3710.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3737.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
兩次的詢答花了那麼多的時間還是不提那沒有辦法我就尊重你不提阿那剛瑞雄在講說台灣民眾黨161的條文第二項第三項你贊成第一項你有不同的看法那沒有關係阿台灣民主社會本來就有不一樣的看法阿看瑞雄那邊有什麼樣的高見 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3738.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3753.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
不然你就寫一個修正統議嘛不然你沒有辦法討論啦你沒辦法說服我我也沒有辦法說服你我們要一直僵在這邊嗎因為這個事情我很理性的跟專委員講 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3755.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3779.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我們審兩次了你的看法我都有聽你的看法我都有聽到我都很一致了剛剛我也很負責的跟你解釋我們法案為什麼是這樣提我有我的看法你有你的看法我們大家都尊重甚至我提出來的版本可能跟輪委員的看法也不一樣這個都是很正常的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3782.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3807.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
但如果今天是第一次審查的話你每天要這樣做我是沒有關係因為本來嘛現在已經到黨團協商的階段了大家就確認一下我們的立場是不是一致如果不一致沒有關係就沒有辦法達成協商結論嘛不然坐在這裡再講一百個小時啦可能結果也都還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3809.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3833.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
是一樣所以是不是我比較善意的建議主席因為如果有什麼新的觀點我覺得新的觀點再來討論都好如果只是延續前兩次審查大家繼續合格言而治的話真的會搞到天荒地老也不會有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3835.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3844.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
謝謝黃委員我想說因為大家的想法不一致就三年以下的部分以及是否加重行則是二分之一的部分大家想法不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3845.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3866.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那是不是說我們這個案子就保留等於是大家沒有共識如果有共識我們當然是可以依照那個協商內容通過嘛或者是照誰的提案通過那如果說沒有辦法我覺得這很好這我們真的是就法條在討論我尊重這一定是保留嘛就是第一個你刑罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3868.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3892.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
160第一項你要去做一個提高就是我們這個彼此沒有辦法說服嘛沒有辦法說服的原因我也不是說你那個太重太輕的問題是你跟後面的行為太樣那個罪質本來就有所不同我認定的是我自行脫逃的部分他的罪質我明講好了我認為自己跑掉的罪質比較低我認為去把他放掉的尤其公務人員把他放掉那是可惡 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3893.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3911.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那個加個三倍我覺得很合理啊所以你這個地方要把它拉高到下面這個條紋一樣相同的最直行為太陽會不同那你說一樣我當然就反對不贊成就是說因為條紋我認為它本來它的設計它的罪責的程度會有所不同的原來的設計我覺得是好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3912.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3941.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那你如果要動161的第一項那你相對在我看來就是必須要去動162條那當然講不下去沒辦法說服的話這沒有對錯的問題我們就保留因為剛剛那個黃委員他也有提到其實日本的做法其實兩個是一樣那我想說161條的部分因為大家沒有共識所以我們本條予以保留各位有沒有其他 有沒有意見那沒有的話本條予以保留那我們現在審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3946.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3947.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那個法官請 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3956.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3983.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
主席各位委員各位先進大家好就161條部分委員林思明等16人版草案第161條第二項所定的毀損拘禁處所竊據或以強暴脅迫犯前項之罪的情形與沒有這個加重適由的同條第一項的情形兩者法定刑事完全相同那有沒有違反這個平等原則及罪行相當原則就敬請在座 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3984.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4007.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
本條其餘部分尊重主管機關及立法院的職權及決定 謝謝好 謝謝吳法官那我們就本條一保留 大家的意見我們都會記在議事錄裡面那我們現在審查序號二號台灣民眾黨團提案增訂第161條之一及委員洪孟凱等22人提案增訂第163條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4011.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4017.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
好那請問這個部分各位委員有沒有意見要提出排序二 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4046.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4047.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
可以喔 好 謝謝張偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4050.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4079.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
新增的我看台灣民眾黨的161-1是拒保責付跟限制住居或限制出境出海的被告合法草案無沒有正當理由不到庭發布通緝者三年以下有期徒刑那以一般來看的話這個就是新增的啦就是新增的一般以現行實務上來看的話你交保的交保不到沒收通緝抓過來就是這樣子要新增新增 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4080.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4109.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
還是會碰到相同的問題我認為都會碰到 如果要處理重罪的話要處理重罪的話這樣的一個規定啊 顯然也不足以來做威嚇可是碰到輕罪真的又麻煩我說交保一萬的交保一萬的告訴南倫支隊交保一萬的我要去做工了我就去做工了我跟羅志祥打架一萬塊交保 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4111.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4138.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
前半我去做工,我也來上班,我很忙或者我這個宋達的部分住宿舍沒有回到我的宋達地址住所地傳聞沒有到當然很難想像說發布通緝自己都不知道的但一般確實在民間裡面大家看到這個是指標性的案件那我看到的是一般的事情小民 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4140.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4163.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
法一定下去的話 又會碰到一個輕罪的 甚至於告訴乃論的 多出一個重罪出來我就比較擔心這個 這樣也都沒有人為我說服啊你們就跟人家說 我要嫁這個下去 拘保折付了 你們覺得很可惡啊像我都認為折付的部分 為什麼會折付 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4165.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4190.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
為什麼連交保都沒有直接就折付他就認為沒有保全被告跟保全證據的一個必要啊或者說案件已經非常清楚了那這些又多增加這樣的一個條文把它弄三年以下它的意義規範的意義在什麼地方到底要處理什麼這個我很一貫的到現在我還沒有被說服啦好 謝謝好 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4195.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4218.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那我們 我再跟您再次確定就是161之一嘛確定喔 好我想要問一下就是根據161的這個修法的版本現在有三項嘛那從一項一項來看呢我的看法可能跟蕊熊委員不大一致可是有一些問題我覺得還是要提出來討論那雖然法務部沒有版本可是我們還是想要聽聽看你們的意見喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4219.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4248.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
就是目前依照刑事訴訟法116-2第四項規定如果我被法院依照第一項或第三項所定為遵守這四項得進行拘提也就是我們在刑訴法裡面已經有明白的規定違規的處理方法那目前這個版本的寫法我認為可能有跌床駕屋的風險那我想要知道一下就我們的判斷上這樣是不是合理這個我們的擔心還有在這個版本裡面有寫到制止的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4249.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4253.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那這個制止的部分是刑訴法沒有規定的要件那在現行的刑罰裡面也沒有就制止這兩個字做定義所以我們也很好奇假設這個版本真的通過了那制止這兩個字我們在相關的應用上要如何去解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4266.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4282.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那既然是這樣那所以我也很好奇他跟刑訴法116第四項競合的時候應該要如何處理好也要麻煩你們一併的回應還有就是我也很好奇假設我們假設假設被告真的已經逃跑那要如何達到制止 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4283.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4299.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這不只是定義的問題在實際的應用上我們我看不出來精緻指人在違反者這到底的用意或者是實際上我們可以怎麼處理所以這個部分我也想要請法務部告訴我們你們的見解跟你們可能的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4300.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4322.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那再來關於第三項的部分如果被告他已經是有罪判決確定我們可以想想看最常發生的失誤可能會是應該到案執行那他沒有正當理由不到場而且呢經過拘提他還是沒有來所以我們就發布通緝可是現在的版本寫的是在第一項裡面寫的是不到庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4323.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4343.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那這裡面會不會有法規漏洞的問題這是第一個再來161-1的第二項跟第三項二跟三假設同時發生的時候需要制止嗎所以在整個邏輯上我也想要請法務部告訴我們你們的法律見解還是它有可能共存嗎好 以上 謝謝主席 謝謝好 那麻煩法務部表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4344.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4372.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
好 謝謝委員推詢那我想這個相關的意見我們在去年的書面報告裡面其實都已經有提過了那關於這個A161條之一它事實上它的第一項的這個構成要件我們認為事實上是有相當的疑慮因為雖然它是有經這個合法傳喚然後有這一些這個限制住居或這個限制出境出海等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4372.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4393.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
但如果只是因為經合法傳喚而無,這讓理由不到是否就已經有棄保潛逃的積極的情勢,那其實還有可疑而且這個過程要件已發布通緝,這個並非行為人的行為而是司法警察或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4394.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4421.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
司法警察官或者是這個檢察機關或是法院來發布與否這樣的一個行為作為這個過程要件事實上也有欠妥適所以在過程要件上還是建議應該要具體的描述積極的逃亡或他逃逆的這樣的一個要件會比這個目前草案的這個要件來得更為妥適那以免違反這個罪行相當的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4422.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4438.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那麼第二個這個第二項剛剛所提到的這個金字紙仍在違反這個部分呢確實這個在法律明確性上面是有些疑問的因為這個所謂的字紙到底是這個主體有誰來做那麼它的形式如何而且呢刑事訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4439.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4452.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
十六條之二有非常多各種不同的應遵守事項是不是都是用自治來處理事實上也還有很多討論的空間畢竟我們現在是在刑法的構思要件討論這一個定義的方式我們也認為還需再斟酌 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4457.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4470.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那場內第三項有關這個加重騎行的規定事實上我剛剛在前一條的時候已經有做過說明就是說這一個跟這個逃亡或者是說這個七寶潛逃的時間點有關那麼其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4475.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4495.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
如果真的要用到這一條的話呢只有在有罪判決確定之後才有用那麼這個完全吸住於這個法院的審理的進度是否可能導致大多數的個案沒有辦法使用到這一條對於我們最想要使用的這些被告反而用不到這個其實是有一些問題那以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4499.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4526.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那個郭商先等一下因為我們今天是協商今天不是就條文審查因為我剛剛有發現我口誤了一下我們現在就條文的協商不是審查所以其實我們應該就不一樣的地方提出來講就好就不用再去討論這個法條的原理原則或設置目的那些就是主要是就別的不同黨團所提出來的版本大家有不一致的地方提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4528.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4551.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
協商這樣才適合所以可能要跟各位報告一下這個點好那我們請黃委員剛剛有委員垂詢這個刑法跟刑事訴訟法差別在什麼地方刑法是實體法違反實體法才有刑法的作用刑事訴訟法是程序法在程序上面的作用要怎麼樣進行強制處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4552.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4574.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
這是兩個完全不同世界的事情不會有重複處罰的問題第一點先回覆第二點剛剛所在講很多問題事實上那個問題是出現在法務部最初的版本上而不是出現在我們的版本上法務部當初所提出一個版本是什麼我唸給大家聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4575.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4597.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
被告受拒保責付限制住居經合法傳喚無證當理由不到庭或因逃亡藏匿經發布通緝者就處三年以下有極圖刑兩種行為太一樣第一個受拒保責付限制住居經合法傳喚不到庭就會被處罰的這個是法務部當初2019年的版本這是法務部當初2019年的版本但這個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4604.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4630.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
在我們台灣民眾黨提的時候我為什麼不採法務部的版本就是因為如果覺得這樣子就直接給阿柯刑事處罰太重所以後來才把構成要件再把它進一步嚴格化你經拒法責附限制住居或出境出海經合法重案無證當理由不到庭後面不是或了後面是併經發布通緝 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4632.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4654.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
發布通緝的前提要件是什麼你逃亡才會發布通緝啊沒有逃亡怎麼會發布通緝他那個要件非常的明確啊而且你有沒有逃亡這件事情不是你自己事後再來做審查是之前法院就已經認定你逃亡才有發布通緝的問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4655.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4684.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
所以剛剛垂詢的問題啊真正要討論的課題是2019年法務部所提出來那個版本到底有什麼問題啊在我們這個構成要件下面有兩種狀況啊第一種狀況確保折付限制住居金合法傳化無證當理由不到頂這樣還不算喔還要進一步什麼還要進一步認定你逃亡被發布通緝了這個時候才會有所謂構成要件該當性的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4686.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4703.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
第二個 再看一下第二項第二項就116條之二鎖定應遵守的事項當初法務部的條文寫的是什麼違反關於羈押替代處分鎖命應遵守的事項就直接處三年以下有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4704.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4730.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
只要違反羈押替代手段應遵循的事項就直接處三年以下有期徒刑了但我們就是擔心你就這樣就直接處三年以下有期徒刑會太重所以才會再加一個經過制止人再違反譬如什麼譬如說我叫你不可以離開你的住居所結果你離開被我發現叫你不要再離開了 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4732.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4754.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
叫你不要再離開給你一次什麼 給你一次機會叫你不要再這樣做了你還這樣子做 才會有剋於刑事處罰這個是比當初法務部所提出來的條文更限縮更限縮非常的多第三個是有罪判決確定宣告刑然後要加重其刑至二分之一 剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4756.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4784.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
法務部的代表回答說啊 這個用的例子可能會非常的少不會啊 這個用的例子絕對不會很少剛跑掉的中文字用的就是這個啊剛跑掉的中文字用的就是這一個條用的就是這一個條文啊現在就棄保潛逃沒有處罰的規定狀況是什麼狀況是反正有錢的人啊你把我當初拒保的金額沒收就算了 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4785.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4807.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
他會怕嗎 他不會怕我為什麼說他不會怕我繼續用中文字當作例子當初中文字前面已經有一個罪判了兩年三個月有期徒刑確定他跑了他跑了他跑了最後不是他自己回來投案是他被抓回來他抓回來了以後 然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4811.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4839.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
然後除了當初的交保金沒收有任何的刑事效果沒有任何的刑事效果更扯的事情是他當初那兩年三個月的回來台灣坐牢坐一年就假釋了坐一年就假釋了在我們現行的法律制度體系下根本就鼓勵什麼你趕快跑啊不跑的是笨蛋真的不跑的是笨蛋有能力而不跑的是笨蛋 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4841.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4866.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
因為他現在的法律效果就太輕了嘛那否則的話當初在司改國職會議的時候為什麼大家會認為就有必要去訂拒不拔潛逃罪就因為目前在刑事訴訟法上面給他訴訟法上的效果太輕了嘛所以才要在刑事實體法上面再給他刑事處罰嘛當初在司改國職會議討論這麼久要討論什麼事情就要討論這件事嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4870.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4889.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那如果所有委員認為說我們這樣子不斷的去限縮他的構成要件認為這樣構成要件可能還是太寬鬆了要再限縮的更嚴我都尊重啊就把修正動議拿出來嘛你覺得這個構成要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4893.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4917.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
還不夠嚴需要更嚴那或者是說你覺得我設定的太嚴了當初法務部2019年那個版本會比較好我們都尊重但是回到主席剛剛講的我還是希望今天協商的時候大家如果有共識我覺得非常好如果不能有共識那也沒辦法了因為我們真的不是第一天第一次在討論這些條文莊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4926.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4944.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
好 謝謝趙偉黃瑋媛剛剛那個講法我倒不同意了我有不同的一個看法就是說不跑的人他未必是笨蛋跑不跑我們都很清楚啊這個人性他自己會去做衡量啊還有的人我親自幹嘛要跑 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4945.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4971.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
有的人輕罪就像剛剛法務部所提出的說明就變成說我因為被通緝沒有到庭發布通緝我沒有到庭然後變成三零以下有企圖性那你單純沒有到跟到底是不是逃亡那個層次還是有不一樣的一個差距2019年這樣的一個版本我也在立法院我也反對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4974.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4976.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我不是只有 你提出來我也這樣反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4979.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5004.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
不是嘛我說你這樣的設計我一定是反對啊同樣你台灣民眾黨你現在的看法還是同樣的道理沒有辦法說服我啊我的意思就是說你到底要處理什麼你如果要處理大咖的現在提出來的條文你又把那些小蝦米給涵蓋進去嘛我的爭點就在這個地方嘛我怎麼會不知道你想處理什麼你要處理中文字拍手啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5005.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5025.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
處理那些十惡不赦我拍手啊可是以這樣的條文以我自己我自己的法學素養還有我的腦袋瓜我就沒有辦法去想到出一套怎麼樣讓這些小蝦米讓它回復到原來不要因為這些我們社會上痛恨這些大咖的然後變成你把它一網打盡我的道理在這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5026.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5047.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
所以說你2019你怎麼樣的一個設計你丟出來我這樣給你反對我的邏輯還是一樣你可以說我沒有與時俱進因為日本有這樣的一個修法日本的法律我也不見得它最先進這個都是要從法則學來看的話其實都要經過彼此的一個大家的一個辯證那確實罪職 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5052.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5078.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
會因人看法而異但是很多行為的太陽其實你要把它全部都放在一起我覺得這個是我比較不能接受尤其是剛剛我們在看的你說你整個草案裡面你如果到最後你說經制止能夠再違反這個過程要件裡面剛剛次長你提到那個我也接受就制止 誰來制止它的主體到底是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5080.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5104.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
制止的形式到底是用怎麼樣來做一個制止那這些在我看來就是過程要件就不夠明確了在我看來就不夠明確了這是我基於法律這樣的一個看法而且你說這個經過有罪判決確定你像比如說你那第三項是不是加重棄保檢查的部分或者說違反那個羈押的替代處分的罪行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5105.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5125.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
這個就變成一個不確定性了就變成是我在法院我審理如果快一點跟審理慢一點的話會導致大家適用的狀況就會不一致會有這樣的問題你條文規定下去就會變成有些適用加重有些到最後不適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5128.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5151.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
關鍵就在什麼地方 就在法院你審理的速度啊這個是條文法律設計的一個原理會不會產生這一些大家會覺得衝突的一個現象我是請大家去做一併的一個思考否則我再強調一次 我知道你們要處理什麼你們要處理中文字 處理那些大咖的 社會上非常討厭的我向大家都同仇敵愾 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5153.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5180.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
大家的那顆良心長得都是一樣的可是我請你們也特別要去審註我提出來的這一些輕重失衡的問題那你整個過程要件到底是不是有明確的一個問題或者說我要逮住這個大咖的我把這些小的全部為罪的全部都撈進來的問題尤其又涉及到是告訴乃論的部分你這個在處理其實核心概念就只有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5181.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5190.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
你說叫你來 叫你 給你交保了給你折付了 你還敢跑掉你就是對我施法的一個侮辱核心就是在這個地方而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5191.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5211.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
核心就是你要真正要講法理就只有這個而已可是他真的是那麼強嗎他有強到說你這個法院司法權他做出一個處分以後那好像是一個天條一樣要去上班的人或者說他因為某個因素他去違反你了我就要用另外一個重罪來伺候你 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5212.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5240.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
有必要達到這樣嗎我這個是條文的設計因為是如此是在討論現在的條文倒不是我要來提出什麼樣修正的問題因為我認為那個部分對我來講我認為那個部分是不必要的所以我就沒有所有的修正的問題以上跟大家做一個報告好那我們今天還是協商啦還是要提醒一下各位我們今天是協商不是就條文審查好那現在我們請那個陳委員剛好舉手那請陳委員表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5242.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5266.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
好還是謝謝主席的提醒那我還是把我原本要講的講完那我們等一下就是針對協商好吧我們就不再針對條文我剛剛講的這個刑訴法的意思就是說刑訴法已經有說違反的處置方法但是現在看到的修法版本裡面冒出一個從來沒有過的制止這件事情那制止再違反的要件科與處罰這個邏輯跟定義還是沒有說清楚所以我們才會提出我們的擔心謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5268.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5287.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
好 那這樣子的話 我看就是台灣民眾黨徵定的161條之一跟孟愷委員提案徵定的163條之一好像各黨團之間也沒有共識嘛那如果沒有取得共識的話 那本條一樣予以保留請問各位有沒有意見那個 法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5291.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5316.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
主席各位委員 各位先進 大家好就161條之一部分因為刑事訴訟法第116條之二的第一項第八款所定其他經法院認為適當之事項這個是一個概括條款內涵並非明確所以將其列為刑事處罰要件是不是有違處罰明確性原則這個敬請在座就本條其餘部分呢尊重主管機關及立法院的職權及決定 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5319.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5335.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
好 謝謝吳法官那我們接下來就協商第三排序三洪孟凱委員洪孟凱等候所有人提案增訂第163條之二那請問各位委員有無意見把那個前面的保留這個就因為是連動的條文就一定保留吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5348.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5371.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那是否如果大家一致不一致就予以保留好那序號第三洪孟楷等二十二人提案增訂第163條之二部分予以保留好那我們現在好那我們現在協商增訂第十條之一張明 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5379.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5398.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
增訂第十章之一請問這個部分大家有沒有不同意見那就一樣予以保留那我們現在看那個協商序號排序第四增訂第172條之一那 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5403.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5422.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
有台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員林思敏等16人提案委員羅志強等29人提案委員吳宗憲等19人提案好那請各黨團有意見要提出沒有好那沒有的話呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5425.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5446.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
民進黨這邊希望保留那請問一下國民黨跟民眾好那那增訂第172條之一部分與保留那我們現在協商排序第五增訂第172條之二台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員林世民等16人提案請問各位委員有意見要提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5449.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5460.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那就增訂第172條之二予以保留好 那增訂第172條之三有台灣民眾黨黨團提案 請問各位有無意見好 那個司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5463.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5474.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
主席抱歉 剛才是針對第172條之二司法院有一點意見 僅供參考台灣民眾黨版草案第172條之二的規定僅列有騷擾的行為太陽至情節比較嚴重的恐嚇則依第172條之三的規定來處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5486.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5511.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
但是前者的法定刑是三年以下有期徒刑得拼合三十萬元以下罰金而後者的法律效果是依其所犯之罪加重其刑之二分之一也就是依照刑法第305條恐嚇罪的法定刑加重之二分之一那相比之下呢情節較重的恐嚇行為所定的刑度反而較騷擾為輕是有輕重失衡的情形見請在座 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5511.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5536.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
至於本條其他部分呢 就尊重主管機關及立法院的職權及決定 謝謝好 那我們先謝謝司法院對於甄定第172條之二的意見好 那中委員是 我們現在因為在我們現在在協商第172條之三 中委員是要提這個嗎不是 我因為剛司法院有這樣的一個意見嘛那我來表達一個看法啦 就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5538.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5560.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
172條之二這個新增的我比較不清楚我想不清楚說台灣民眾黨他把騷擾這樣的放進去不是說騷擾不行不能入罪我的意思是說你這個也是新增行度提高的一個問題那可是真的會碰到一個為什麼會單獨弄一個叫做騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5562.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5585.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
就像剛剛司法人所提到的那如果你騷擾變成是三年以下有嫉妒刑可是我恐嚇就比你騷擾還要嚴重我用重強度的用恐嚇的方式那反而是兩年以下有嫉妒刑那我如果用強制的部分我就變成我用更強度的去騷擾證人我反而刑度會比較低 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5586.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5614.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
這個都會牽扯到這個解釋上啊很難去理解的一個地方就是說為什麼放了一個騷擾把它提升上來把它入罪到比那個犯罪的手段或者說去干擾證人的手段更強度的比他強度的反而這些那以後都不用騷擾的啊你幹嘛用騷擾騷擾在三年以下要用恐嚇的都是想用恐嚇的 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5615.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5643.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這很怪就是讓我比較不能理解所以要提出不一樣的一個看法就是在這個地方那可能大家沒有辦法彼此來說服的話就保留吧好 謝謝鍾委員的意見黃委員簡單解釋一下當初深海國際會議決議出來了以後針對有關於避免你去搞證人 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5646.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5673.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
然後去影響最後在法庭證言的正確性所以針對有關於這個部分要把他入罪這個是共識法務部當初的條文處理了三個太陽一個是騷擾另外一個是行求契約或交付其他賄賂就賄賂證人第三個是無正當理由的不當措施這三款是當初法務部在構成要件上面的設定 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5675.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5702.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我們在172條之3之所以會做這樣的設定是犯前面以外的罪為什麼交通情形是二分之一那個不是只有限於在恐嚇的行為你有可能對證人重的話如果是以美國的立法例他會去殺害證人他會去殺害證人還有對他為其他的暴力行為也就是基於那個保護的課題 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5704.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5719.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
他本身的特殊性除了他自己本來的個人法律以外你還有加上妨礙國家司法權公正行使的法律所以才會把刑度在設計上面給他拉高我先簡單做這樣子的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5720.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5733.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
好 謝謝那一樣我們的共識就是予以保留那我們剛剛有已經到協商排序第六就是172條之三那請問這個部分大家的意見如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5736.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5756.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
而資二剛剛其實已經保留了但是因為剛剛司法院有意見要補充那所以補充完之後大家又有別的補充嘛但實際上我們排序五的172條資二已經保留了大家的結論是保留那請問一下172條資三增訂的部分請問各位有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5758.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5768.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
還是一樣予以保留是不是好那就172條之3排序6的部分就予以保留那我們看一下排序7增訂172條之4那有民眾黨黨團提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5774.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5797.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
172條之4及林思敏等16人提案第172條之3委員吳宗憲等19人提案第172條之2那修正動議部分是委員吳宗憲等3人所提修正動議第172條之2委員黃國昌等3人所提修正動議第172條之4那請問各位有意見要補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5800.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5822.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
主席我想要確認一下我們現在等一下討論的是您有提出來跟民眾黨黨團都有提出來的修正動議版本嗎針對那個部分討論好OK那我們等一下我再發言謝謝那就讓莊委員好那請莊委員那個我跟昭偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5824.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5847.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
172之四涉及到在整個意圖使法官一定的裁判跟檢察官一定的處分就是說司法案件在偵辦跟審判當中或者執行的時候去在法定程序外對法官檢察官這個部分涉及到公務人本身我倒很想聽聽看法務部跟法官他們的看法是什麼那個更重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5850.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5856.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
請問法務部這邊有沒有要補充 或司法院這邊有沒有要補充司法院沒有 那法務部這邊有沒有要補充這是張司長要講嗎 還是劉主任要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5872.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5897.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
有關於司法關說罪的部分就我們都是贊成制定司法關說罪的一個修法方向那就構成要件來說的話簡單說明是有關於台灣民眾黨的這個條文172之4的部分那由於說涵蓋的這個構成要件裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5898.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5923.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
是否是已經涵蓋了所有有關於法官和檢察官之間的職權的行使這部分似乎涵蓋範圍還沒有到非常的全面那此外就構成要件中有關於指揮監督長官的定義的部分是否有可以參考的其他法律的規定那最後就 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5925.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5934.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
刑度的部分因為我們是否能夠配合調整成就是依照刑法體力的一個罰金刑度這邊也並同參考謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5937.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5965.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
好 那鍾委員這剛剛法務部有表示意見了那司法院是沒有他那個意見有講就等於沒講啊那不法關說在講那個是範圍啦那你這個範圍你這個很難去類型化你這個很難類型化就跟剛剛提到的就是過程壓線都完全不明確的一個問題啦那其實你那個一年以上七年以下你們不覺得這個罪行之間跟我們一般法律裡面講的罪行到底是不是有相當的問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5970.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5991.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
反而一般民眾是不會碰到這條是針對所有的國民那我想這個我才是在重複上次我們的書面意見裡面其實就已經有提到了這個刑度是否符合罪行相當原則我們上次也有提過這個一樣的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5992.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6017.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那麼剛剛這個劉主任檢察官所提到的部分事實上是因為這個一定之裁判或處分事實上這個到底有沒有夠明確還有是否包括這個審核強制處分以及這個實施公訴的這個職權的行使事實上也都還有一些餘議所以為求這個明確希望能夠把這個到底適用的範圍能夠納為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6020.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6041.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
更清楚的說明那麼這個因為這個上次的草案裡面沒有處理到修正動議就是我們上次的書面已經沒有處理到修正動議那麼我們已經有針對這個長官這個關說的情形那我們那時候是建議說也要納入那這個修正動議裡面也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6042.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6057.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
也有納入了但是到底誰是這個監督長官事實上到時候可能在立法的說明或者說要件上面還是應該要再予釐清到底範圍到哪裡才不會違反這個明確的原則那以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6059.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6073.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
好 莊委員這題我是覺得你們自己想清楚啦我邏輯很一致啦剛剛所有的條文裡面我是比較怕傷及到無辜啦這個條文沒有傷及無辜的問題喔這個條文裡面老百姓是會喜歡的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6074.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6099.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
你是這些高官 你是這些檢察官 或者法官你拿人民俸祿 而且是很高的俸祿然後呢 又有那麼高的一個地位 還去接受關說能夠去關說的人 一般老百姓也關說不到啦也關說不到啦我從律師到現在 這快三十年的期間我也從來沒有去關說過辦件 所謂的司法的一個案件老百姓看到這種刑責 他是會喜歡的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6101.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6107.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我比較有疑慮的是說那個範圍啦,我反而是覺得那個範圍不明確啦,否則這整個刑度啊,你要更長的我也沒意見,我也沒意見,是說那個犯規啊,犯規,我怕你們沒有辦法去做一個類型化,是不是有沒有辦法涵蓋啊,不然其他我是沒意見喔。 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6125.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6151.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
好 陳委員好 謝謝主席因為剛剛我說我要發言所以我還是問一下當然還是那個範圍的問題就是假設我們有一個官說他是長成這樣他就是一個他要法官下達一個定戰時狀態的假處分跟他去關說法官要法官做出一個終局裁判那就你們的角度來看這都是一種關說嘛那如果用這個版本的話他可能都會是同一個刑度嗎或者是刑度的差距應該是要有所差別的那如果這個範圍目前我們都沒有辦法釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6153.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6179.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
所以我認為這件事情我們還是要再討論謝謝我想大家應該也是沒有共識那沒有共識的話我們是不是就予以保留因為我自己當過檢察官我覺得這個條件其實是非常的重要好那這樣的話大家沒有共識那我們就增訂第172條之4我們就予以保留好那我們現在協商排序8增訂172條之5 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6181.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6192.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
有台灣民眾黨黨團提案第172條之五及委員林思明等12人提案第172條之四請問各位委員有沒有意見要提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6197.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6219.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
172條之事我們剛剛討論的不是就172條之事嗎那個不是不是就是我是排序第八最後一條啦最後一格最後一格因為不同黨他那個條號會不太一樣所以可能要麻煩各位看一下對照表 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6246.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6254.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
基本上172條職務是在保護法官跟檢察官的 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6261.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6290.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
就是不要讓人家為了他們要去影響他們的裁判去搞他們或者是他們的家人如果你為了要影響法官跟檢察官的裁判對他的家人去實施犯罪行為的話就加這種警刑大部分之一基本上這個法條立法的意思就是在保護法官跟檢察官希望他們在執權正當行駛的時候不會讓他們自己或他的家人如果有因此的遭受到什麼樣子刑事犯罪行為的話給他加重處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6292.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6305.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
這個是從美國來的立法例是不是請法務部跟司法院針對這個這麼體貼你們的法案發表一下你們的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6307.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6334.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
請問一下司法院你們也不用去在意那個昭偉講的什麼協商跟審查不一樣啦協商跟審查其實都一模一樣啦就是在互相的看有沒有辦法說服的一個過程啦本來協商也不是只有說什麼是或者不是不行就直接保留還是看看還是大家彼此有時候提出不同的看法到最後有意見會越來越接近或者說彼此會贊同也不一定那到我反而看你們這一條你們怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6337.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6350.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
請問司法院有沒有意見要補充?是主席 各位委員 各位先進這個部分呢 尊重主管機關及立法院的職權及決定謝謝好 謝謝 那個法務部呢法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6356.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6361.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
主席各位委員各位先進大家好那關於民眾黨團所提出來的172條之五這個版本因為在我們法務部提呈報給行政院的草案當中是沒有這個條文那我們了解這個民眾黨團的提案這個的精神應該是跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6371.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6388.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
騷擾證人罪是一個延續騷擾證人罪或者是說對證人做一些犯罪行為的一個延續的概念所以把這個概念當中放進來就是就法官跟甲官的一定的親屬或者是利害關係人當中一併的做保護那就這個部分我們感謝民眾黨團的提案那只是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6389.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6414.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
要件上面因為是為了比方說像使法官為一定的裁判或使蔣官為一定之處分這個範圍是不是有辦法包含就是所有法官跟蔣官一個職務的行為這個部分可能是要再做考量的那另外就是說這個部分是就就是其他的犯罪行為的時候加重情形是二分之一那要不要就就是騷擾的部分也再納進來做這個訂定這個部分也是漸行考量以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6421.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6444.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我講的很簡單啦就請你們回去想清楚請你們回去想清楚給你們多的保護要不要你們如果不要我整條都拿掉都沒有關係喔因為你們前面在講騷擾的時候說這個騷擾這樣好嗎結果到後面檢察官的時候說那檢察官那個騷擾是不是也要放進去就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6446.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6466.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
你們想清楚以後把立場統一啦就是因為呢要保護你們的你們現在是聽起來啦感覺是想要但是範圍還不夠廣希望範圍再廣一點剛剛我聽你的意思是這個樣子嘛你們在前面證人的事似乎有感覺到太廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6468.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6495.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
沒有所以你們證人的同意這裡也想要報告委員就證人的部分我們的版本當中就是剛才委員有提我們一開始的版本也有放草所以證人的部分你們同意嗎證人的部分我們的草案當中是有把騷擾的太陽放進去是是是所以馬上這邊沒有不一致的情形跟委員報告所以我只問你們最後的立場所以最後一條你們到底想要不要你們如果真的覺得不要我要把它拿掉也沒有關係不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6502.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6520.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我來表達一下意見其實我可能幾乎 我來猜啦司法院跟法務部這邊的看法你像譬如說我為什麼說這個條文你們要聽你們的意見呢那確實會有範圍的不同你像譬如說檢察官他要提要不要看告算不算處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6521.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6525.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
或者說你在審核這個強度處分的時候它算不算一種處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6526.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6554.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那就是你們好心就對了啦好心就是說對司法人員對檢察官對法官他的等等等等以下的這一對意圖使他一定的裁判或者檢察官一定的處分在這當中呢你去對他的配偶子一血親三親等旁系血親兩親等裡面的姻親家長家屬跟他訂了婚姻又請他身份上身份上有密切的利害關係人實行犯罪行為者加重其成二分之一其實這種條文有訂就等於沒有訂啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6555.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6575.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
有訂等於沒有訂啦你真正這樣去做了以後啊法官本來就會認為是你妨礙我的司法我本來就可以去加重也可以說是一個宣誓性的一個條文啦但是呢那個範圍確實是有沒有辦法去這個會有掛一落萬的問題那掛一落萬到底對還是不對是有意的去把它做疏漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6576.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6595.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
或者說這個條文是在講說如果你去做的是這個去請人家請檢察官講說不要上訴不要看告或者是你撤回上訴或者看告那這個部分來就不用加重會產生誤會啦在這裡啦所以這個條文我看還是保留啦那陳委員呢你還要補充嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6600.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6615.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
因为庄委员已经讲出保留我还是提出我的问题好不好主席因为毕竟我也才刚来司法法治委员会我之前都在教文委员会但是我想要问一下除了那个范围之外你们刚刚说希望加上骚扰你有没有建议不是希望是建议 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6616.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6632.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
只是說要不要一併考慮一併考慮這部分我們就希望可以再研議但是我要講的是這個犯罪行為實行犯罪行為者依其所犯之罪加重其刑那我就很好奇我想要請問一下所謂的妨礙名譽跟公然侮辱算不算是犯罪行為算嗎我可以問一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6636.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6657.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
算嘛 算那所以如果在很多的司法案件他正在調查的過程當中有些檢察官被支持的民眾罵說檢察官不要臉啊 恨你們啊像這種話對檢察官來說有沒有造成恐懼啊或者是妨礙名譽啊因為他罵他不要臉這樣那像這樣子的犯罪行為是不是你們所定義的那如果是的話就是剛剛講那個範圍的界定我覺得還是很重要好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6664.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6681.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
好那這樣的話是不是我們這一條就保留好那不知道各委員有沒有不同的意見好那沒有的話我們排序八增訂第1、7、2條之五部分就依保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6727.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6730.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那這樣齁,我先宣告欸等一下等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6731.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6757.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
好先宣告本日做協商結論如下台灣民眾黨團提案第161條 增訂第161條之一第十章之一章民及第172條之一至第172條之五委員羅志祥等27人提案第161條委員侯孟凱等22人提案增訂第163條之一及第163條之二委員謝玉鳳等16人提案第161 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6759.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6771.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
委員林思明等16人提案第1、6、1條增訂第10張之一張明及第1、7、2條之一至第1、7、2條之4委員羅志強等29人提案增訂第37張張明及第364條委員吳宗憲等19人提案增訂第10條 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6777.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6798.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
所以十張之一張名第一七二條之一及第一七二條之二委員吳宗憲等三人委員黃國昌等三人所提修正動議均保留送院會處理好那稍待意識人員將協商結論書面製作完成後就交由委員簽名好謝謝各位好散會難得今天這麼順 |