| IVOD_ID |
16583 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16583 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-10T08:31:31+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-10T12:15:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:43:29 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcdf824e3382b7a8d0d8b52470c073da944af80a8cb003b9ba6953d4993f1784155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署、內政部警政署、內政部移民署、海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「法院作成『略式裁定』之依據、理由、法定程序、救濟方式，與科技設備監控處分變更、延長或撤銷之標準，並就執行現況，提供相關統計數據與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:31 - 12:15:00 |
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報告委員會初期委員9人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會我們現在開始開會宣讀進行報告事項宣讀上次會議意思錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1751.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1775.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一屆第三會期司法及法治委員會第七次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一四年四月九日星期三上午九時至下午一時二十四分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員黃國昌委員等十二人列席委員楊瓊英委員等十人列席官員司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳廳長陳一一等人 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1775.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1803.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
主席吳釗祺委員 宗憲報告事項依宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請司法院副秘書長法務部部長國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員數位發展部部長教育部部長大陸委員會主任委員內政部移民署署長國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相關單位列席就言論自由不在界限誰說了算國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界進行專題報告並被質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1805.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1817.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
本次會議由委員黃國昌等14人提出質詢決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以順便答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1821.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1836.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
好那我們先介紹到場委員黃國昌委員以及應邀列席官員司法院副秘書長王梅英副秘書長法務部部長鄭明謙部長矯正署署長周輝煌署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1840.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1860.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那其餘未介紹的列席代表請參與名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本市議程排定邀請市法院副秘書長 法務部長等率所屬相關單位列席就法院作成略視裁定之依據理由法定程序究極方法與科技間 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1862.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1883.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
科技設備監控處分變更延長或撤銷之標準並就執行現狀提供相關數據與測定作為進行專題報告並備執行現在進行報告每位發言時間三分鐘我們先請司法院副秘書長王美英報告接下來我們請法務部長鄭明謙 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1893.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1912.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
主席 各位委員 還有各位先進 大家早安首先感謝各位委員關心我國司法制度本院奉邀前來就法院裁判書還有科控的相關議題做專題報告 敬請指教首先 裁判是指法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1914.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1938.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
判斷事實還有適用法律之後呢最後所做成的這個決定那程式而言呢依法以判決之外呢都是用裁定來做那裁定的那個方式呢它可以是用口頭宣示然後記載於筆錄或者是說製作那個書面那如果說是用那個書面做的話呢就是它並沒有法定格式 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1940.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1957.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
譬如說最高法院呢他就承認說法院所簽發的這個押票呢他是書面裁定的一種那至於說這個本次報告所提指所那個詢問的這個劣勢裁定呢他其實並不是一個法定用語那在實務上 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1959.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1982.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
或者是學界呢也不是一個通用的用語那所以說它的意思到底是指什麼呢看起來好像是指說書上所承認的裁定書沒有固定格式這個意思可是確切的意涵是什麼這還是有待那個探求那至於說那個裁定的那個法定程式呢它可以分為裁定的成立是指說裁判機關它內部 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1984.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2004.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所做這個裁定內容的這個決定那譬如說是何一庭評議之後形成的這決定或者是說那個獨任法官呢他寫完了裁判原本那裁定的那個生效呢裁定他一定要經過餘之使受裁判的人知道這是對外才會發生效力 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2005.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2030.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那它的方式可能是當庭所做的時候就是用那個宣誓那如果說是不用抗告的話它可以只記載於那個筆錄那送達就是一定要經過那個送達之後對外才會發生效力那簡單講就是說裁定書雖然沒有一定格式但是它還是有以上就是有關於成立跟生效的這一些要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2034.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2049.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
還有還有時間還有時間對還有時間好那至於說有關於那個科控科控那個設備呢就是主要的有關於就是科控實施的還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2050.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2079.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
處分的變更跟延長跟撤銷呢他其實主要還是要看就是評估這個被告他是不是有高的那個逃亡的那個風險就是以這個然後由個案法官依這些個案情況來做判斷那至於說柯控現在執行的那個狀況還有就是本院的相關那個測定作為就是召開這一些那個會議那還有就是優化柯控告警的這些那個通報呢這都在那個書面上那個所示那以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2079.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2101.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
請各位委員先進行那個指教 謝謝各位好 謝謝 那接下來我們請鄭明謙部長報告各位委員 各位女士先生 早安那今天奉邀列席貴委員會代表本部列席報告並被質詢 此報告如下 請各位委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2102.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2116.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那科控中心是在示範及法務部各自編列一半的預算共同委由抬高檢數負責規劃建設及維護管理那個案指揮這部分依據刑事被告科技監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2117.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2139.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
執行辦法第五條規定偵查中是由檢察員來指揮審判中是由審判長或受命法官來指揮執行監控的相關的一個事宜至於劣勢裁定這部分這個整個相關的依據理由程序及救濟方法這個司法院的一個主管的本部緊究法律規定提供大院來做一個參佐 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2141.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2167.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那另外科控的一個執行的科控的相關的規定那變更延長撤銷科控的這些的一個說明執行科技監控的這些案件的一類型並沒有限制刑事訴法116條之二117條之一法官檢查完任何必要時再符合比例原則下可為科技設備監控作為羈押的替代處分至於何種的載具 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2168.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2188.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
監控方式監控期間是否變更延長或撤銷處分就由法官檢查依據記錄個案通盤考量各種因素妥善來決定審判中有法院以裁定行之偵查中有檢查以命名行之至於科控設備的期間期滿是不再續間的時候只需由法官在審判中 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2189.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2206.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
在審判系統檢查在案管系統操縱監控平台通知監控中心期滿拆機即可並會以裁定來通知拆機的那歷年開案的件數可以知道科控的這些開案件數逐年增加13年度較112年度增加3.2倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2207.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2222.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
相較11年度更大幅度增加超過10倍的一個開案件數114年1到3月已經達80件可見科控設備相關的優化感染系統及本部及首屬檢查機關教訓都已經成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2223.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2243.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那科技監控的科控中心在個案指揮時區分偵查中和審判中分別由檢察官法官指揮科技科控中心來實施個案監控本部將督導抬高監署持續強化硬體設備優化資訊系統兼顧防止被告逃亡和保障人權以上報告敬請主席各位委員參考謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2247.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2261.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好 謝謝那請問一下其餘列席官員有沒有要上台報告的好 那沒有的話機關代表報告完畢那相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2266.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2282.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
現在我們開始進行尋答本會委員尋答時間為8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員尋答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員進行發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2291.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2318.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
謝謝主席,請司法院王副秘書長、法務部部長麻煩部長還有副秘兩位好,上一次針對有關於中文字細胞檢討的案子我想副秘書長應該還記得很清楚那天我請教您,為什麼高院的裁定 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2319.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2332.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
對於保證金取代科技監控設備完全找不到結果搞了半天是連裁定都沒有做完全沒有做完全沒有做 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2333.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2350.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
等到事情大調了以後才開始匆匆補做我們先分兩個層次的問題剛剛第一個層次的問題就是複密講的沒有錯裁定你要不然要宣示要不然要送達才會對外發言人效力 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2351.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2372.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那我現在下一個問題來了因為這個裁定一直到了今年我們質詢完了以後發現當初根本沒有做才在今年3月28號補做下面的問題是去年10月16號的時候是不是叫中文字或者是通知他的辯護人多拿2000萬來辦繳保是沒有錯嗎是那請他繳2000萬的法律基礎是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2382.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2391.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
在去年10月16號的時候在我們的法律世界當中沒有任何一個裁判可以命他多繳2000萬我說的沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2395.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2419.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
委員您垂詢的是那也正是因為何義廷的這個為師就是沒有就是送答然後也沒有在當庭言辭做宣示所以他們所做的這個就是違反一個程序的規定也因此呢司法院的態度很清楚就是我們後來查細這些事情之後司法院的態度我等一下會問啦我們是法律人嘛因為我如果再問A問題然後你再回答B答案這樣大家會聽不懂啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2423.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2451.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這樣對不起來嘛現在我的問題很具體啊去年10月16號叫他拿兩千萬來的那個法律的基礎是什麼我從法律的觀點看是沒有法律的基礎我這樣的理解有沒有錯誤可以這樣說因為那個裁定根本沒有對外生效那現在問題來了啊現在這兩千萬如果人家要你還他那你怎麼辦那個報告委員因為這個部分就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2452.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2479.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
之後的這一些程序的處理它還是涉及到審判的核心這個部分我們司法行政也不便對就是就何一庭這個職權的行使來做一個回答現在喔何一庭啊出了這個大包他們要負責這個我同意我其實也沒有在怪您啊因為那財一定也不是你做人也不是你放的嘛要你在這邊幫他挨罵幫他背鍋對你也不公平啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2480.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2508.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
但是我覺得在法律上面我們在討論法律制度的問題就要把法律制度的問題講清楚所以我現在擔心的第一個事情是什麼第一個事情是去年繳的那兩千萬沒有法律授權的基礎你憑什麼給人家留著今天如果中文字囂張一點啊就叫他辯護人啊叫你們兩千萬還來啊當初你要我繳那兩千萬根本沒有法律的基礎啊這個時候怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2510.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2516.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這個說我國司法制度就尷尬了真的就尷尬了第二個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2518.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2544.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
在你今天司法院的報告也不了解的所謂劣勢裁定嘛因為今天你報告我覺得法律人有一說一對於這樣的精神我基本上是認同的啦司法院在書面報告上跟全國的法律人講說我們的司法院也搞不清楚什麼叫劣勢裁定那顯然啦這個法官知道出了包了以後想要亡羊補牢 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2546.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2565.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
去發明了這個詞出來但是我對你們講的一個詞啊是有意見的 什麼意見啊 來看一下裁定雖然沒有判決書格式那麼嚴謹的要求那但是什麼 但是刑事訴訟法50條到51條針對於裁判書所應記載的內容基本上是有規定的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2571.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2597.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以即使是裁定刑事訴訟法51條針對裁判書所應記載的內容也有要求嗎是的我這樣說應該沒有錯嗎是的那因為你們公告的裁定跟原始的裁定是不是一樣我們無從得知啦因為依照刑事訴訟法的規定裡面有一些針對有關於受裁定人要被特定的那些資料是應記載的事項沒有錯嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2602.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2618.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
您聽不懂嗎?是我聽得懂是我這樣說應該沒有錯嗎?是好那所以但是你們現在所公告的這個劣勢裁定對於實際上面那個裁定的原本跟正本是不是相符的這件事情司法院確認過了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2623.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2641.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
因為那個書記官嘛 上面是寫說上面正本的製作跟原本相符嘛那按照目前司法院或高院所採取的立場是案件審理單可能也是書面裁定的一種嘛我特別加可能兩個字啦還是你們現在就確定是裁定的一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2642.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2643.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我現在就問得很清楚囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2663.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2689 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
如果這個審理單我們按照高院的那個法官他的主張他認為是所謂的裁定的話他現在顯然就這樣主張嘛他的主張只是這個裁定有沒有對外發生法律效果嘛所以是不是要補送答的問題嘛那我現在的問題是那個案件審理單上面的資訊跟他現在公告的這個裁定的資訊內容是不是一樣這件事情確認過了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2690.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2705.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
跟委員報告就是說就我們因為這個自律的那個內容也都已經揭露那這個我們可以報告就是說他們這個審理單上就是最早原始的那個記載就是如現在所那個揭示的那但是那個自律 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2706.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2728.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
之所以他們成立決議說這要送法平有為師其中的第二個理由就是說他們後來在上面還有再增加了一些那個增刪了一些東西這個現在就是我的核心問題喔當初的案件審理單我姑且把它成為A版本嘛但是現在公告的裁定是B版本嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2729.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2752.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我應該沒有說錯吧現在公告的是第一個版本是A版本他後來還有第二跟第三他後面還有第二跟第三個版本這個新聞稿上已經有揭露了法官可以這樣做嗎因為依刑事訴訟法40條就是公務員所製作的文書有增刪的時候呢就是一定要去註記 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2754.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2776.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
不是啊 依照他們現在的看法啦那個裁定啊 成立的時間點到底是什麼那個裁定成立的時間點是A版本 B版本 還是C版本因為我現在 如果按照您剛剛這樣的講法現在有三個版本的裁定喔現在公告的是第一個版本嘛那第二個版本跟第三個版本從司法院的觀點算什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2777.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2796.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
隨便亂寫的東西這個部分要由何義廷來回答這司法院沒有辦法幫忙做解釋我尊重審判獨立啦但是你如果尊重審判獨立尊重到ABC三個版本要怎麼回答都要由何義廷來回答在司法的公眾監督上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2798.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2816.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
沒有辦法處理這件事情那等於是法官針對自己的裁定可以做很多版本嗎司法院的態度很清楚因為他們這樣子做就已經是違背了這些程式規定也因此有這個圍屍呢那個高院的資歷委員會就是送法屏的圍屍是有 又包括這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2819.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2831.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這法官百分之百應該要送懲戒這我跟你沒有意見不一樣的地方現在我在請教的是在法律上面現在這個裁定到底是A版本 B版本還是C版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2833.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2862.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
因為他會牽涉到一個更大的問題是我昨天啊請教一下法務部部長的上面的記載後來被抽換那我相信我們都是法律人不要爭執這件事情啦這種事情用抽換的方式是不對的嘛我的理解沒有錯吧電話紀錄嗎還是手提單電話紀錄是對這也是違反刑事說法40條來那個部長我昨天請教完了你以後你有沒有回去瞭解那個檢察官到底有沒有表達這個看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2864.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2883.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這部分是如同那個整個電話紀錄裡面我們還在調查中你們還在調查嗎因為這個還在那個調卷嘛希望齁 動作可以快一點希望可以動作快一點因為這個司法大醜聞啊 整個社會啊都非常非常的關心那最後 我先請教一下司法院副秘書長 說 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2886.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2895.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
因為那位審判長他已經不事任兼任庭長了嘛你們說你們要開人審會把他庭長拔掉嘛庭長拔掉沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2896.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2918.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
報告委員 因為這位庭長他後來在4月1號的時候他就寫了簽成自行免監那這個也已經核定下來了所以連人審會都不用開了嗎是 預計4月14號派令會生效接下來整個懲處的程序可能對於法官評鑑委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2920.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2948.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
的公信力 社會公信力 可能會再遭受一次社會全面的檢視 這個司法院應該心裡有數嗎是的 也跟委員報告 在昨天的時候呢就是這一個申請書也送到法評會了OK 好 來 接下來請部長那個部長我知道你等一下要走齁 我們講快一點之前啊 我揭露有檢察官跑去跟無奶人吃香喝辣 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2949.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2978.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那後來呢地檢署就地檢署的部分有把這幾個檢察官送檢察官評鑑嘛那之前呢你們回給我的函說高檢署有要做行政調查報告這個行政調查報告完成了嗎各位委員報告齁這個高檢這個有發交給北檢來做行政調查那北檢的行政調查是認為這個有違反公務員所以在這邊齁來來來你看你公文最下一行 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2979.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2996.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
高檢的行政調查持續進行中尚未結案所以你現在回給我的高檢的行政調查到底還有沒有在進行還是北檢移送評鑑以後就算結案了因為這個已經移送那個個案評鑑那這部分高檢贊同這種的看法所以這邊已經結案了蛤 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2998.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3013.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
這個部分就算結案了這個一定會送個案評鑑因為所有參與參會的這些五位檢察官都送個案評鑑現在喔我公開質疑過一個問題我到目前為止沒有聽到法務部的回應所以我想今天公開請教你的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3015.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3041.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
把這五個檢察官送評鑑我非常贊成我非常贊成敗壞檢察官的官真敗壞檢察官的官真傷害司法的公信力但我的問題啊 是什麼這個標準有適用所有的檢調嗎為什麼我這樣問當初北檢的檢察長在當調查局局長的時候跑去台塑的招待所 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3043.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3066.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
跑去台塑的招待所那個時候正在接受調查的是誰是鄭文燦還有送他錢的楊兆琳還有送他錢的楊兆琳這個是等於什麼調查局帶了一堆官員去台塑的招待所招待一個貪污犯送錢的人他們的招待 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3069.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3078.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
為什麼調查局的局長現在北檢的檢察長可以幹這種事情然後都不需要接受任何的行政調查或懲處是有雙標嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3081.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3105.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
是有雙標嗎這個沒有雙標如果沒有雙標的話 那請問針對這位前調查局局長現在台北地檢署的檢察長法務部做了什麼處理因為我看不到我公開發文質疑了非常久啊是跟全國的檢察官說即使那個貪汙犯那個送錢的正在被調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3107.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3129.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
只要財大氣粗一樣可以去他的招待所吃喝玩樂是這樣嗎請部長這部分如果有具體事真那我們是絕對聽聽聽這上面寫的還不夠清楚喔這上面寫的還不夠清楚喔王俊麗也沒有否認他有去啊他從頭到尾沒有否認他有去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3135.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3155.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
他說他去是公務啊我看不懂這是什麼公務啊一個正在被你調查貪污犯送錢給鄭文燦的在招待所裡面招待你結果他跟社會說是公務然後整個法務部從上到下靜悄悄都不用調查 不用處理來 請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3159.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3187.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我們再重申就是我們會秉公處理絕對不會互端好 你說要秉公處理我非常讚賞可不可以講具體一點如何秉公處理那這個還是經過要了解這個還要了解 你要了解多久給你一個禮拜了解夠不夠這件事情發生很久了啦我也公開質疑很久了啦只不過我人為言輕狗吠火車啊我公開質疑了以後到今天從法務部到高檢署到台北地檢署沒有一個人回應啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3189.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3203.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
大家都在裝沒事啦反正用混的混過去就好啦然後您今天說要秉公處理不要講空話如何秉公處理主席站起來了給我一個答案就好你需要多久你說你還要調查嗎沒關係我給你時間調查一個禮拜夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3208.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3225.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我們半個月兩個禮拜兩個禮拜好兩個禮拜我們來瞭解看看兩個禮拜這件事情該什麼處理請法務部正式的回函給所有世華法治委員會的委員好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請陳培宇委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3228.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3249.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
好那我們同時就由於那個議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢尚未確定我們現在先確認議事錄請問各位委員就上次會議議事錄有錯誤或遺漏沒有的話議事錄確定來請陳委員好謝謝主席那有請司法院副秘書長謝謝麻煩副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3254.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3276.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
好 副秘書長早安那我想國人對於今天的主題都非常關心那我相信剛剛在前一個委員質詢當中你們說都有相關進度那我想我們後續就一起關心那我還是要回到我自己的主題我想跟您討論關於創意司法案裡面創意司法案裡面我們看到可以修法的部分還有報導者在去年做了一系列的報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3277.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3301.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
告訴我們在整個檢調偵辦過程當中就法律上的工具還有很多法律的見解可能讓現場第一線的工作人員需要更多的支持我們來看一下暴走者的案件裡面第一個部分是談到同一個案件裡面針對數位時代的犯罪形態在法院見解的部分哪一個部分呢就是當時被害人位於台中 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3301.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3316.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那於是呢檢察官就向台中地院申請羈押可是台中地院卻認為行為人持有影片的時候那個人他正在新北所以呢台中沒有管轄權那他們認為必須要移轉或是主託給新北檢察官來申請羈押這個部分當然我不知道當時是透過了什麼樣的溝通陳檢察官後來還是在台中辦了這個案子但是我想知道司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3328.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3335.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
在目前这一类型的案件有什么后续的态度因为我相信这不会是第一个案子好这边请简单回应一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3338.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3362.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那個 有關於那個管轄那個規定呢其實刑事訴訟法都有那個相關的那個規定那現在可能就是各法院之間就是對於對於譬如說什麼是結果地因為如果說是犯罪行為地的話或者是這個被告他的駐居所這個都比較不會有爭議那就是說什麼叫做那個犯罪結果所發生的地方可能就是有那個大家所採那個見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3363.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3380.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
有不太那個好那可是喔如果在過往比較單純的案件我覺得比較好去歸納但是我覺得網路時代數位時代的犯罪樣態確實已經很不一樣了那從這個陳祥偉檢察官所辦這個創意私房案的案例我們可以看見 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3380.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3399.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那如果大家還是踩著過去的見解沒有討論的空間跟可能性我認為會對第一線檢察官造成很大的阻礙那我想你剛剛的說法聽起來就是大家可以溝通可以討論雖然有各自的見解但是我比較希望你們在這件事情上還是要有相關的態度對於第一線工作人員的支持好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3400.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3427.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
謝謝委員那我再補充一下這是因為隨著就是我們現在那個資訊的那個犯罪因為資訊的犯罪他事實上在電腦裡面已經不是跑到一個行為去殺人或是去傷害那所以就是說這種新興的那個議題確實我們法院這個部分的我們會因為學界已經就是有相關的那個討論蠻多的那我想我們這個部分我們也會就是說進一步的那個加強就是對於法官的那個賠利然後大家尋求共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3428.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3445.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
太好了謝謝好謝謝對於法官的賠利尋求共識讓檢調人員他們有覺得獲得支持好那接下來要溝通的部分是關於立法工具的部分這個部分我還是想要跟司法院討論看看也想知道你們的見解在這份報導當中呢再次提到刑事訴訟法101之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3447.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3463.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
因为被告有反复实施犯行之余而得羁押的要件在这条当中并没有把儿少性剥削防治条例犯罪列入范围但事实上在制造儿少性影片的这些犯罪人行为人极有可能高度 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3465.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3479.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
反覆犯案那導致於呢這個檢察官認為在相關的法律上應該要與時俱進同時他在偵辦的過程當中他也認為被告有篡證的可能為由去申請羈押可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3480.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3495.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
實務上的案例就是成功性不高因為法官常常認為網路犯罪的人只有網路交流現實生活中互不認識所以不符合目前訂定的羈押要件一樣是法官的見解這邊可不可以請你們回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3505.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3523.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那個跟委員報告那個確實目前的那個101-1的那個反覆實施之餘這個要件的這個羈押要件確實沒有把這個新剝削這邊歸納進去那這個部分我想是一個政策的一個形式政策的一個決定啦那我覺得謝謝委員那個垂詢這個部分我們也會帶回去研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3524.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3532.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那我想不要只有研議我自己其實已經有提出修法版本了而且也已經都連署完成了我們當時的訴求就是希望可以強化兒少保護網而且我們有具體的作為所以我自己也提了修法那我當然不確定這個會期我們有沒有機會討論到這麼具體的事情可是我認為這件事情你們應該也可以提早做出準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3544.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3568.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
不管是跟專家學者演繹或者是實務上的見解第一線的工作人員的意見的收集我相信這件事情絕對可以加大保護兒少網這個部分 可以嗎可以 謝謝好 謝謝喔那我們就期待你們後續的進度喔好 那這邊謝謝那我們要請警政署好 謝謝副秘書長 謝謝警政署有來對不對 謝謝刑事警察局副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3572.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3597.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
好那一樣同一篇報導我要先說在這篇報導裡面他有提到以上這一段文字我就簡單說一下檢察官說他在三年前開始辦這個案子的時候其實是沒有人想要辦的不想辦的原因並不是檢察官偷懶推卸責任而是這樣大規模的案子而且新型態的數位網路犯罪其實相關的案例在過往可能沒有辦法太多參考的案例而且他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3598.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3617.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
當時加害者被害者都分散全台一半就要長期抗爭檢察官要找專業熱情可以長時間投入的人來幫忙可是他所面對第一的困境就是來幫忙的這些警察同仁在這一類型的案件上並沒有績效 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3618.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3634.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
也就是沒有加分啦那要把這麼多人被害人集結起來必須要花費非常多的人力跟心力只有靠使命感硬撐下去是很辛苦的那當然最後檢察官是用組織犯罪條例去起訴給原警們相關的誘因這對警察來說非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3637.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3656.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那來自警政署的你我不知道你怎麼看這件事情我必須要說我非常佩服這個檢察官他最後決定採用組織犯罪防治條例讓相關協助辦案的警察人員獲得了相關的獎勵但是如果沒有這個檢察官想到我不知道這個案子還要拖多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3656.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3682.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
在相關第一線的辦案我們來看其實警政署你們在2017年曾經有執行過一個叫做青春專案我投影片這邊有相關的數字這個青春專案裡面呢你們當時調整了績效你們跟警察說只要相關案件可以以兒少性剝削防治條例第36條第36條到第40條移送就可以評比和分所以當時各縣市都大力的查緝喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3682.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3705.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
当时你看2017年查器数字来到将近3000可是到了2018年却说相关的案子检查体系怀疑滥行移送所以到了2018年评比的方法又改了说相关的案件必须要报请检察官指挥并且深压嫌犯警察才能核分 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3707.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3731.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
這都是在報導裡面相關的檢察官所指出的問題結果門檻提升之後呢請警政署這邊看一下到了2018年就落到了七八百件而已可是你會想說搞不好是犯罪案例變少了嗎並沒有在衛福部近年所通報的數字當中其實網路兒少性剝削的通報數量是越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3732.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3755.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
但是因為沒有好的獎勵的工具其實可能讓我們的員警沒有動力去做這件事情不知道身為長官的您怎麼看這件事情有沒有機會我們一起來突破這個困境跟委員報告我想創意司法我們九大隊配合警察官去偵辦這個案件我知道大家都非常的配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3755.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3780.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
非常的辛苦所以有關績效的部分不管是村安或是青春專案那警政署的立場就是讓偵辦犯罪常態化是那在整個獎程的部分我想在這個部分我們回去來研究怎麼樣獎程的方式獎程的方式來提高他們的誘因就是偵辦刑案的誘因那因為青春專案的部分在過去裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3781.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3793.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
在兒少這個部分確實像2017到2018那後來慢慢都讓他已經變成常態化我沒有意見對於常態化當然是好事可是因為如果他沒有相關績效相對於現在的網路詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3797.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3817.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
它是有績效加分的或者是販毒的部分應該也是有的可是網路耳上性剝削這個部分它應該可能是沒有的我不確定但看起來是這樣它就是如同你所說的它是一個常態性所以可能對基層員警來說當他每天有這麼多的事情要處理的時候可能這件事情的優先度就不會這麼高 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3818.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3838.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
是這回去我們會研究有關我們有沒有機會在一個月後收到您研議的相關報告或是開啟相關討論的報告好我們一個月好謝謝秦政署那我再跟您講另外一個事情除了我剛剛說的績效之外目前的報案機制在這個報導裡面他有談他說當時有一個少女的母親去報警 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3839.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3866.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
然後呢 在報警的當下 在那個前後加害人繼續傳送訊息給這個少女說你去報警啊 反正你抓不到我那根據我們了解 之所以這個加害人敢這麼囂張就是因為其實地方員警基層派出所的同仁他們也許不具備有這樣子的網路 而是要性剝削的偵辦能力所以他們在第一時間收到這樣的案例我相信有大部分基層同仁是不知道該怎麼辦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3867.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3887.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
一樣我們不可以去責怪基層的同仁我們必須要問我們在面對這麼多層出不窮的網路網上性剝削的案件數量逐年增高的情況下我們到底可以怎麼辦這邊我有一個建議我想要請你們思考看看內政部也請思考看看基層的派出所不一定有這個專業可是可不可以用縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3888.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3911.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
或是區域為中心去建立一個兒少性剝削的專責窗口由派出所收到案子之後他就把案子轉介出去他只留下一個簡單的記錄確實記錄我收到了然後我轉出去了而這個專責的窗口當然就會有專業的工作人員在裡頭他可以協助家長協助被害人第一時間獲得該有的資源跟支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3911.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3926.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
你覺得這個部分我們有沒有機會來完成或是開啟相關的討論因為這樣子不但會讓家長覺得安心被害人覺得安心我們也讓基層的員警知道我們並不是只加工作在他們身上但是卻沒有給予他們支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3927.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3951.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
跟委員報告就我在地方服務的經驗事實上兒少先剝削這樣的案件大部分我們都會轉接到婦幼隊所以婦幼隊是一個很大的窗口所有的案件比如說就我在地方服務的經驗比較矚目比較矚目我一定是會交給婦幼隊來處理所以我想現行應該是有婦幼隊這個窗口那因為大部分的案件所有的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3952.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3971.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
很多所以為什麼很多都是受理案件他們都派出所但是我想這個部分只要是比如像這種創意私房有專業的案件現在是科徵的時代那科徵的時代大概三個月整個科徵的手法就變了所以我們刑事局在科徵的部分也不斷在普及這科徵教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3971.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3986.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我當然知道現在有婦幼隊因為我有我知道但是我必須要說就婦幼隊來說他們除了這種網路而上性博學的案例之外還有更多是婦幼隊的業務範圍所以我剛在想的是在這麼多數位時代新型態犯罪而且數量層 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3987.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4012.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
越來越高的情況下我認為我們真的有必要去研議一個專責的窗口跟單位當然您不用在這裡立刻承諾我可是我認為我們確實有開啟這個討論的必要好嗎那我們辦公室也會持續追蹤喔所以我最後的結論要求就是我想要請司法院警政署就我今天的質詢相關的事項還有相關的報導所提到的困境在一個月內召開會議提出相關的因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4013.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4041.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
就算事情非常複雜跟龐雜沒有辦法在一個月內解決這是正常的但我希望我們可以開啟相關討論給我們書面報告還有就是請法務部警政署針對相關偵辦兒少性剝削案件的同仁合理的續講那我相信這個名單你們應該是有的那這個合理續講的名單跟相關的機制我認為我們回過頭補應該是可以的不要讓基層的同仁在這些案件上疲於奔命但卻沒有得到該有的獎賞跟鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4042.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4067.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
好 那這個進度我們也會跟你們追有沒有機會在一個月內完成續獎名單 回頭去追回頭追續獎名單 因為續獎有它的程序啦我們盡量好不好好 那多久 大概會多是多久在你們合理的程序時間當中續獎的話 兩個月好不好好 謝謝 那我們會記錄下來謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們下一位請林倩琦委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4076.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4083.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
林委員不好意思 先等一下 因為待會部長10點要先離開剛剛黃國昌委員說兩個禮拜 也有其他委員傳訊息給我說 希望下下禮拜再安排一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4092.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4121.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
就是就北檢的部分想要再就教法務部那這部分先跟部長說明一下那可能我們下禮拜還會再排一個類似的那個相關議程的那個會議那再麻煩部長能夠到時候過來好 謝謝部長謝謝主席主席 府院同仁 大家好早安好 那我就先請副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4122.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4123.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
好 麻煩複密署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4127.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4155.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
副議員早安副議事長謝謝基本上我有一個前言我還是比較希望能夠針對政策面積整個系統性去處理好 那我講一下在我們整個民主法治的社會當中司法制度的正當性跟透明性會影響到個案的正義的實現那也是維繫民眾對國家信賴的根本那本席今天想要從這個主題略是裁定可能侵害人身自由的爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4156.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4172.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
跟第二個部分是詐欺犯罪這跟法務部比較有關詐欺犯罪因量刑過輕而造成社會的不安最後呢是大法官針對死刑核限做出的這個釋憲的模糊那我們看到在個別制度上的一個瑕疵 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4174.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4200.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
而且司法權在程序設計跟實務操作上面臨的一個深層的挑戰所以本席希望在司法的這個部分如果沒有明確的依據應有的通知義務跟有效的救濟機制那會導致程序的濫用也會動搖民眾對正義的一個信仰因此本席今天提出的質詢是希望司法院與法務部能夠正視制度性風險是 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4201.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4229.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
然後來回應民意的期待那重建司法的信任與正當性所以我們就進入第一個有關於司法權核心正當性跟制度透明性的一個問題那也就是跟這個劣勢裁定有關法院在涉及科技設備監控等限制人身自由的處分所作出的劣勢裁定的依據與程序有沒有具備法律基礎或使用是否符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4230.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4250.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
法定的要件跟憲法的一個原則還是或者是在這個實務上是不是有存在著這個制度的濫用權責的不清還有資訊不透明等現象我想前面也有委員把個案的細節闡述得蠻清楚的本席這邊想就系統性跟政策面來跟您就一個探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4251.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4268.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
所以在這個我們都知道的中文字案對一般民眾來講可能很不解的就是在高等法院已經定驗了判刑三十年之後涉案人還能夠潛逃失聯那直接的原因是高等法院你們在去年的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4269.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4297.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
十月中旬的這個劣勢加保的裁定那這個裁定呢是換取不予延長科技監控的決定但是依照我們這邊所得到的這個相關的資料沒有依法公告也沒有送達檢調機關對不起檢查機關也沒有通知當事人辯護人以至於檢方完全喪失抗告的這個可能程序最主要是程序感覺好像蕩然無存 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4298.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4325.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
所以然後事後檢院之間的通報電話記錄又還有不同的版本那行政程序到資訊的記錄都不太明顯那就讓人有一種偽造的疑慮所以這讓人家想到有點像是法官的審理權的濫用跟法院內部程序是不是已經失控那它好像不是一個個案的問題而是司法機關制度性風險的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4327.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4352.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那劣勢裁定以本席這邊所了解的是刑事訴訟法第455條以下規定的特例程序設定的目的是犯罪輕微案件單純的情形但是經過被告同意之後由法院不經延遲辯論迅速裁定那麼在監控處分跟保釋條件還有科技設備使用等直接干預人身自由的情境當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4353.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4368.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
引用的劣勢程序那法律依據是什麼呢程序上是不是應該進行刑事訴訟法第101條關於羈押監控延長的公開審理與通知義務那這個部分是不是可以就教副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4369.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4390.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
好 那個謝謝委員垂詢那有關於那個委員關心這個議題其實我們在那個報告中就是已經有那個提及了這一個案件它最主要那個為師其實並不是說就是這個裁定那個格式的那個問題而是說裁定呢它 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4391.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4409.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
一定有法定的程序就是什麼時候成立什麼時候要對外生效那對外生效這個是一個最基本的你要不然的話就是當庭所做的呢就是以言詞把它宣示出來讓當庭所在的當事人他可以聽懂了說法院對我所做的裁定是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4409.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4421.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
所以就只針對當事人所以相關的相關人等 不然的話就是說你沒有當庭宣誓的話你就要把它做成一個裁定書把它那個送達 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4423.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4449.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
之後呢就當然還有那個公告的這一些那個程序那所以本件的那個問題並不是說他的這個裁定的那個格式是不是用一個比較一個簡便的因為像那個最高法院他也承認說這個裁定他沒有一定的格式像我們在那個羈押的時候呢法官他會做一張押票這固定格式那這個謝謝複密署長本席在一開始就跟你們講說本席不想落入個案的一個討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4450.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4471.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
但是就這個個案影響到了整個系統性的問題是本席最想要跟您就教的那要跟委員報告的是就是說其實在我們那個法院呢大部分的那個法官都是非常敬業而且都是那個課刑就是刑事訴訟法所做的那個規定的所以這類那個裁定呢它之所以為什麼我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4472.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4490.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
會進入那個懲處的那個程序他真的就是個案他真的就是個案那你們有沒有從這個個案再去檢視系統性有沒有失靈本席這邊提一下那你這個明文的規定對不起明文的依據為什麼會是司法實務當中可以被啟動的處分形式如果他沒有一個明文的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4492.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4511.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那你們有沒有存在其他同樣被劣勢處理但是沒有依法紀錄沒有送達或沒有給予救濟機會的案件那你們有沒有掌握這個統計數據跟運用範圍我們目前除了這個我們不知道其他有這樣子圍屍的情形因為這就是一個圍屍有沒有可能有有沒有可能有 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4517.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4535.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
這個案件是因為眾所矚目嘛那其他有沒有像這樣子的狀況有可能 有沒有有沒有可能啦 妳覺得如果說從可能性的話這個我當然就是從機率上我沒有辦法說是那個不行那我想我們大部分的這個法官可能還不太確定有沒有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4535.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4558.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
所以你們有沒有可能就針對這樣一個相關的裁定形式是否浮現展開一些研究調查本席經常從個案會看整體性的一個問題所以本席這邊所提出來就是說你不太確定有沒有可能有這樣子的狀況那你們是不是藉這個機會也去檢視一下然後這中間為師的這個部分可以作為這系統性檢視的一個參考你們覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4559.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4585.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
是可以的 但是就是說裁定它是不要一定那個格式的妳講的是這個個案啦所以我在講這個整個我們那個通案就是說本來就是最高法院我們實務界這是我們大家慣行的就是裁定它沒有一定格式可是最重要的就是說你一定要把它裁定對外宣示出去這個才是爭點所以這個部分有沒有其他的案件會有現在這個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4587.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4608.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
有沒有可能有其他案件會有像這樣子的情況不是只有這個眾所矚目的中文制案件我們通常那個法官就是因為這就是一個為私行為通常那個法官都是依照那個法律規定在進行的好 就是這個通常嘛所以本席就是藉這個個案提醒您是不是有機會檢視一下檢視一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4615.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4632.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這個部分本席這邊再做一個建議啦是不是可以專案調查就劣勢裁定的適用範圍通知義務跟救濟保障還有相關案件失誤比例提出一些透明的統計數據那如果目前還沒有建立通報跟送達 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4632.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4659.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
制度之標準作業程序希望不知道這個部分有沒有如果還沒有是不是可以由司法院統一來頒布規則並對全國的各級法院加以訓練跟監督其實我們相關於就是裁定的這些那個原本還有正本的那個製作那個不只是刑事訴訟法就是其他的司法院所頒的這些那個刑事審判記錄業務注意事項這些其實都已經有非常詳細的一個規定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4660.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4685.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
所以複密署長您是覺得這樣一個情況這目前整個系統是除了這個個案沒有其他的問題的可能性還是說也有可能如果有可能本席這邊提出來的就是一個系統性的建議所以如同剛才我所講的假設有那是不是請你們就這一些案件去做一個系統性的了解跟分析然後相關的這個統計數據可不可以也去做一個整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4686.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4708.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
司法院可以來做這一份那個 就是做這個分析啊那如果如您剛才所講的 您覺得這個相關的這個SOP是OK的 您也藉這個機會來檢視一下 那我們整體是不是在這樣子的事件上還有再進一步跟大家宣導監督的一個必要性這是我一個建議 好 謝謝委員好 謝謝副秘書長 不好意思我再用一點點時間那法務部 不好意思 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4715.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4730.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
好那剛才本來是有三個議題啦那我現在就進行第二個議題那第三個議題因為時間關係我想改天我們再來做一個處理那針對法務部這個議題我想這很多委員都關注的也就是詐欺犯量刑過輕的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4732.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4752.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
所以這一直是社會的焦點所以我們基本上是希望對現行法制跟量刑實務沒有辦法反映社會對詐欺犯詐欺嚴重性的一個問題所以本席這邊其實要提出來本席其實也提了一些法案所以民眾在目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4753.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4773.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
被詐欺所影響的直接或間接的狀況其實是非常嚴重的那我們知道整個詐欺罪你們的統計在2017年到2021年詐欺罪確定的大約有7萬人然後被判處6個月以下的大概佔了43%那3年以上的徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4774.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4796.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
大概不足1%大概差不多只有355人那這樣的數據很令人憂心顯示現在量刑好像沒有辦法針對其對人民的危害而有一些實質的反應所以現行的刑法第339條對於一般詐欺犯涉的五年以下的徒刑而且還可以一顆罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4799.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4807.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
感覺好像沒有辦法有嚇阻的作用因為詐欺本身是高報酬低風險的違法行為模式那現在詐欺案件屢見不鮮 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4812.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4836.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
應該是有一個制度性的漏洞所以大家現在能夠比較提出來的實務性操作就是加重詐欺罪所以在刑法第339條之四現在僅設一年以上七年以下的徒刑那對於網路還有冒用公佈門現在詐欺這種個人又變成一個集體行為甚至利用AI這些很難辨別的假訊息他的整個處罰實在過輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4838.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4866.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那上次其實詐欺本席上次也提到但是法務部這邊提講的大概就是比較前端的有關於警政系統但是我想後端的阻嚇作用是非常重要的所以包括本席還有很多委員都對刑法第339條的之三跟四提出一些修正草案將一級的詐欺罪提高到五年以上十二年以下的徒刑加重詐欺罪者 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4867.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4892.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
無期徒刑或七年以上情節重大者可以到十年以上這樣明確回應社會對打擊詐騙的高度期待那凸顯我們目前現行的量刑跟社會的現實有一些脫節因為整個統計數據來講輕型化的趨勢就越演越烈那現行的法定刑責跟量刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4893.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4917.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
的適當性讓大家很疑慮所以不知道部長您是不是同意本席剛才所談的這個量刑謝謝委員的一個指教那的確是那個詐欺罪是讓全民共憤這是全民公敵那輕判的這個問題事實上外面的確是整個房間的確是有相當的質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4918.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4946.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那這部分以現行來講我們也這個這個刑法的這個是不是過輕這個跟委員報告這個在去年的7月31要施行的詐欺危害防治條例事實上在第42條第43條裡面他有換刑法339之4剛才我有提到39之4的這些的如果詐欺達到500萬就3年以上10年以下的一個刑度如果都超過1億的達到1億的 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4948.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4960.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
是五到十二年那這邊還可以併科三億三億以下的一個罰金事實上去年就已經對這部分有做一些我們過了詐欺司法裡面這邊明確的針對犯罪行為跟刑期都有提高那44條裡面就是剛剛3394裡面的那些只要以一個複合型的這是有兩個的話就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4976.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5002.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
就是在那個有蝦類就是有這樣有複合型的這些的詐欺的行為的話是再加二分之一那如果在這發起主持操縱的這些這些詐團這些領導的這些人這些是處5到12年的一個徒刑並克3億以下的一個罰金那另外這個事實上這個是全方位的另外這一種的話在50條我們檢查可以具體的一個酋刑那我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5005.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5026.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
也發文給檢察官就是如果有詐欺危害防治條例相關的這些的加重的這些比較重的這些的詐欺犯刑我們是請檢察官要具體的一個求刑那我想這樣可以遏阻這些詐欺的這些的這些的這犯刑我想也受到一些的一個成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5027.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5050.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那部長所以本席這邊除了您剛才這個我們也談到修正的本席這邊所談到的五年跟十二年還有無期徒刑或七年這個部分您是不是針對本席現在所提出來的相關的法案然後還有您剛才講的我們去年通過了打炸四法做一些分析然後參考本席這邊談到的情節重大者的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5052.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5077.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
處罰跟罰則做一個相關的分析然後我們再來比較那去年的這個部分跟今年很多委員包括本席所提出來的法案那其中的對詐欺的嚇阻的效力是不是再做一個更進一步的分析跟檢討我們再用數目的資料再跟委員給委員來做一個報告不要忘記本席這邊也有提出無期徒刑的這個刑責是我們再做一個分析好的好謝謝主席好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5089.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5097.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
那我們下一位請王逸川委員發言王委員那個部長有事要先離開 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5114.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5119.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
請法務部跟這個司法院麻煩次長跟副秘書長我也好這個副秘書長好請問一下這個我們這個科技載具啊按照你們的報告啊大概分為這一個四大類這個手環腳環個案手機跟這個居家讀取器 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5143.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5162.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
按照你們的了解,這四個裡頭,曾經被破壞過的最多的是哪一種?報告委員,據我們了解是手機手機?手機,是好,那手機這個是法務部買的 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5164.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5179.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
目前我們四年來發生一個最具體的個案是剪斷腳環的部分手機的部分當然它是因為是一個消耗品大家容易消耗沒有錯那具體的破壞的話破壞這個載具的部分是腳環這個是很高科技的 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5180.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5206.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
就是品質不容易好是不是?還是怎樣?它為什麼那麼容易壞掉?其實也不容易,因為四年來就沒一次,但後來我們也做一些補漏啦所以目前為止就沒有再發生有關破壞對我們這個腳環的部分再進行破壞了好,那現在有使用這些科技監控的這些設備啦這個最近這一兩年有沒有人明明給了這個東西,後來他忍不見了? |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5209.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5237.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
委員你講是說載具它脫陶的嗎對所以什麼載具做脫陶它就是目前沒有啊載具戴腳載具做脫陶的對沒有就是說它只要戴在手上戴在腳上目前比較具體個案它是沒有具體實行科技監控而後逃亡的好所以現在只要戴在手上戴在腳上它任何的移動在高檢的那個中心都看得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5239.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5265.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
當然除非他因為他畢竟是一個科技設備他有收訊的問題除非他是因為科技設備本身收訊的極限他有可能會有一些好那為什麼會有收訊的極限呢因為他有住所嘛對不對那他今天跟你們講說我今天要去看病他要跟你們講嘛我今天要去哪裡剪頭髮要跟你們講嘛那不在原來設定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5267.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5274.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
範圍內的系統就會警示嘛應該是這樣對不對那他一離開你們的範圍就警示 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5275.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5303.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那所以他脫逃的機會真的不高是吧?顧問報告他現在其實不高啦那除非就我剛才講他畢竟是一個高科技設備他有一個搜訊的視角但是我們會我們在當然這是一個我們不能對外公開我們有一些方法去防治他另外還有一些複合式的科技方法去監控他當某一種科技搜訊不好的時候還有其他的補救的方式去做補救那我舉比較極端的例子他就說我要住在山上啊那你就沒搜訊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5305.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5327.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
當然他要做在哪裡是檢察官法官在做科技監控設備的時候給他的一個指示他不能夠自行來決定的是檢察官法官決定的這也是就是說這也是不羈押他然後給了這個地點檢察官或法官覺得可以那是檢察官命他應遵守的事項那最近當然有這種什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5328.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5355.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
靠近海邊 靠近港口嘛那這個說是什麼因為要去看病會經過那裡嘛後來這一位就被就被羈押了 對不對這種案子常見嗎當然這個具體個案是檢察官法官去判斷啦當他靠近了這個告警範圍的時候那檢察官或法官要去判斷這個時候他有沒有逃亡的可能性就是說具體個案檢察官法官要去判斷可是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5356.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5382.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
他應該也沒有跟檢察官或法官講說他會經過那個路徑嘛我們在給他設定的條件的時候他就不能夠接近告警的範圍啊他就檢察官在設定條件的時候就會告警他不能夠譬如說他有被限制出境出海他就不能夠靠近那個港口機場跟海岸線那有沒有這種帶這些科技這個監控載具的人啊他就是白白白白啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5383.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5396.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
他的罪其實也不重,然後呢也沒有羈押的必要那他就這個法官或檢察官就說那你就帶著這個,那他也同意也住在他家他沒事就玩一下跳出這個範圍,就叫一下,然後這個請證書,這些員警們就嗶嗶嗶,然後就要去看他一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5406.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5429.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
這種案子多不多各位報告他其實科技監控有一定的機制包括提醒或三級告警的機制他有逐漸的提升他的告警的這個層級所以他在個案發生的時候我們的監控人員會去判斷他提升到哪一個層級的告警機制我們會反映給甲官或法官做具體的判斷並不是說一有告警就馬上要去測他的監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5429.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5452.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我是說會不會到最後這個人,因為他白目嘛,沒事就這樣玩一下,然後到最後就變狼來了,然後大家就鬆懈了?事實上我們監護中心會不斷地打電話跟他監控啦,甚至提醒他如果真的有惡意,或者相關的疏失行為,會提醒他當再犯到某一個程度的時候,他就會把告警的層級往上提升,他高度逃亡可能性再做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5453.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5481.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
市長這個在報告裡頭提到說高院參訪了之後有給了一些改善建議對 去你們那個中心那具體的改善建議有哪些可以讓我們知道當然就是告警的觸發我們現在告警觸發會接下來產生一些相關的通報的問題會導致檢察官法官他不願意使用因為像主委委員剛剛所提的如果頻頻的觸發那個告警條件的話檢察官法官他可能三天半夜就會受到影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5483.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5500.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
也許他危險性就不高他逃犯風險也不高但頻繁的觸發這個告警條件的話會讓使用者就是說甲冠法官不願意使用所以在參訪的過程當中很多人就反映說這告警的條件是不是要再做一些檢討所以我們後來我們就對告警觸發的條件我們做一些檢討第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5502.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5528.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
處罰之後接下來要通報通報的程序要不要做簡化以前你通報程序太複雜檢察官法官太不願意使用所以從前端的告警處罰條件的優化跟後端告警通報做一些簡化讓檢察官法官願意使用這套系統所以就有可能這一個當事人住所附近的派出所或分局就會有一個同步的事情嗎那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5529.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5556.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
因為到時候實際上要真正去看的應該就是員警了對吧這倒是不一定啦 但個案的時候倒是有檢察官法官去決定要如何的監控這一個被告他也許如同委員講的 會叫員警可以我們辦法的規定 員警就可以去處理也許我們法警 我們地檢署或法院法警也可以去處理這是具體個案法官檢察官去判斷對 那這些員警啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5557.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5581.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
因為我看這個警政署的報告裡頭他們也蠻支持這個案子的那支持這個案子可是我真的看起來如果這些人真的有白目的我們這些員警也會疲於奔命各位報告所以我們現在另外有科技監控有一種叫做電子報道的模式他就透過個案的手機拍照或定位你就不要到派出所去報道了 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5582.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5604.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那減少我們進行遠景的人力的負荷所以在整個科技社會監控方我們有做一些優化了那報告裡頭也有提到這個夜間就提到說這個夜間因為他在原來的居所他住的地方這個逃亡的機率可能比較小之類的所以那個警示的層級就往下降是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5605.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5626.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
這是什麼概念他是一些告警的程序跟警示他做一些處理我們搭配其他的因為我們的科技監控有很多譬如說居家讀取器或相關東西他就會用其他的方式去代替監控不一定一定要使用觸發告警我們現在有一些個案手機其實我們就可以知道他的所在地了 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5626.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5641.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
他有些車雖然觸發了告警但是我們用其他的搭配的科技方式知道他的確沒有離開他的入所地這時候我們也不要去進一步到三級的告警機制去做處理來打擾甲官或法官OK好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5643.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5658.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
最後我再問一個 那過去曾經搞過這些破壞他們的大概是哪一類的人就是說什麼刑期啦 或什麼有錢的啦 還是什麼年齡的啦大概是哪一類的人機會比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5659.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5687.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
跟委員報告我剛剛跟委員報告就是目前四年來唯一一件他是有破壞繳還的那個個案唯一一件啦齁但那個個案本身因為他在我就無方無法對講但是這麼一件所以統計上還沒有辦法給給委員一個統計上的一個一件所以無法統計好了解謝謝好謝謝王委員那下一位我們請蘇青泉委員蘇青泉委員蘇青泉委員好下一位我們請王宏威委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5695.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5714.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
好 謝謝主席 我請司法院副秘書長 法務部部長副部長他10點去開會 所以 次長那就是次長還有警政署 副局長副組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5718.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5734.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
其實今天我們談的是這個鍾文智他的一個這個潛逃案那這個案子引起社會極大的震撼那大家認為說在台灣犯重罪怎麼可以這麼輕易的就逃跑 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5735.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5749.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
但是問題是只有中文制這一件案子嗎我們過去這一年多來可以看到在各個重大特別市屬於經濟性犯罪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5750.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5770.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
要逃跑很容易 非常容易尤其是經濟性的犯罪 而且我會發現說你洗錢洗得越多 你經濟犯罪金額越大然後逃跑越容易你看看一下 包含我們過去的台鹽董事長陳啟玉他也一樣 潛逃 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5775.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5804.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
而且他在國內耶應該看起來是在國內而到目前為止也不曉得 從來都沒有交代他逃國大概一個多月他到底在哪裡他曾經潛逃在哪裡哪些人幫助他潛逃到現在沒有任何的跟我們社會沒有任何交代喔他不是跑到泰國 他不是跑到大陸他不是跑到其他東南亞國家喔他在台灣喔有交代嗎 沒有交代好 再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5805.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5821.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
過去的 88會館 郭哲敏 但他後來是從泰國引渡回來也是一樣啊 1億元交保 看起來好像1億元很高對不對對不起 對這些經濟犯罪的人根本不算什麼 他照樣的潛逃出境 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5824.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5841.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
再來朱國榮一樣是如此氣飽潛逃然後我們起訴了這些相關的人但是人還是跑出去了是不是朱國榮也是大家眾所矚目的經濟性的犯罪的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5842.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5849.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
好 再來百億賭王林秉文說跑到洛杉磯還有我們還懸賞金 就是懸賞他就在林秉文不但跑掉而且極為囂張還在他的臉書來嗆立法委員嗆徐曉新委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5861.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5887.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
後來被大家就舉國化然啊怎麼會有這麼囂張的這樣的已經潛逃出去還可以用臉書來嗆立法委員後來他只好關閉臉書啦其實他嗆的不是立法委員他嗆的是我們的政府他嗆的是我們的司法司法尊嚴掃地所以我請問一下我們幾位長官我剛才講的從鍾文智 陳啟玉 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5889.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5906.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
郭承敏 朱國榮 林秉文都是短短的一兩年發生的事情他不是十年前發生的事所以請問一下我們的院檢 我們的警方到底出了什麼問題誰可以給我回答市長這麼多的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5914.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5934.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我知道周文智當然他的責任在院方這個是比較明確的很明確你們也做了處置可是這麼多案子你們給社會什麼樣的交代呢各位報告這涉及到法律面跟實務面執行面的問題在法律面的部分的確除了羈押制度之外其他的替代處分我們必須要強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5935.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5956.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
比如說我們今天的主題 羈押的替代處分適宜電子監控這法例面我們具備之後 實務執行面必須要檢察官法官他要多多的使用這些羈押替代處分所以我們把科技設備 科技相關的措施把它優化之後讓檢察官法官他願意使用它是一個科技輔助被告 避免他逃亡的方式那市長我請問一下 我剛剛講的這些當時我們有沒有用電子監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5961.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5975.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
各位報告有些事像陳菊的個案檢察官在申請後來是院方是沒有准科技監控所以我的意思就是說我說我們今天是有檢討就是我們電子監控這個制度是在的工具也都在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5976.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6001.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
只是不管是檢方或不管院方他要不要使用他即便使用的時候他什麼時候給他解除了解除的程序出現什麼樣的問題我想今天我們要討論的是這一部分可是我要說的是我們對一般的小老百姓老實講我不知道欸有時候我看到的我就認為就是政府啊怎麼讓精英犯罪那麼容易逃跑啊我認為的就是司法單位啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6002.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6030.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
所以這方面我們已經發函通靈我們全國的檢察官在符合羈押的要件之下當然要申請羈押如果當法院不支持的時候我們要依法來提醒綱告那相關的第一代處分我們在審查中審理中都要積極的主張好 所以未來如果院方不願意採取電子監控或者在中間的過程裡面突然的解除了電子監控檢方一定會有正面積極的動作是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6032.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6052.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
當然我們剛剛已經跟委員報告在審理中我們已經邀請檢察官在符合特定的狀況之下要積極的主張電子監控那如果說他撤銷不撤銷或者變更我們才一定送給我們我們要積極的符合條件之下要積極提起看告好那請來我們司法院副秘書長可以說明一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6054.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6072.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
這個部分確實就是說是否那個裁定羈押或者說使用什麼羈押那個替代處分這個部分是涉及法官那個審判那個人的職權那當然就是說法官做了這樣裁定之後那就是要接受那個社會那個公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6072.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6093.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那我們司法行政端呢就是其實這幾年來我們也一直就是加強就是有透過各種會議加強法官那個賠利就是對於這類那個案件的那個敏感度那還有就是畢竟就是說真的在符合這種就是有那個犯罪嫌疑重大或者是已經判了重罪之後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6094.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6117.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
最有效的就是說不讓人跑走保全那個執行或是保全審判真的最有效就是羈押嘛再來的話他的替代處分確實使用這種科控他是有效的那所以我們這幾年呢我們也都就是鼓勵那個法官他去看看那個整個那個科控設備還有就是來參加這些那個研習讓他們了解說實際上這些是怎麼個那個運作的 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6118.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6139.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
對 那這幾年 黃明書長我跟你講這一次真的是會讓大家對於我們的司法對於我們的法院真的大失所望所以我希望包含我們院檢之間怎麼樣來做合作我剛才講了這麼多例子有些其實有些甚至事實上在檢防也不是在院防只是對我們一般民眾來講為什麼會覺得這樣的重大的經濟犯罪就這麼容易的這個逃跑 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6145.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6146.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那個我請教我們的次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6150.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6169.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
過去重大的選舉 我們都有選舉專案不管是 很多是全國性的選舉 即便是縣市長選 九合一選也是一樣那我們這次的罷免事實上也是全國性的 雖然不是每一個縣市所以過去我們對於選舉專案 當然有幾個重點查會選 查賭盤 查造謠 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6176.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6199.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
可是我覺得到目前為止我沒有看到耶而且呢我們現在很多的造謠幾乎是漫天蓋地而且是無邊際的甚至我們很多的政府高官都加入造謠的行列以來助長這個罷免好 那我要問的是請問一下現在以你們所掌握的 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6199.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6208.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
現在在罷免已經沒有地下賭盤了有嗎這個涉及到具體個案的情節各地檢署他都去掌握了他不會報到我們法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6211.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6234.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我沒有問任何個案我說有關於罷免的部分有沒有出現地下賭盤了你有沒有掌握各地檢署他一定會去掌握不是我法務部來掌握各地檢署他本來就我希望你們做我不是現在沒有在問你任何個案我王輝被罷免吳思堯委員也被罷免我沒有問你吳思堯有沒有地下賭盤王輝有沒有地下賭盤我只是問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6235.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6244.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
在這次罷免裡面有沒有出現地下賭盤來助長或者試圖去影響選舉我在這邊做具體的要求因為過去我們的重大選舉都會有這個專案我剛剛講嘛 查會查地下賭盤 還有查造謠好 再來看現在的罷團的造謠我為什麼講 已經到無法無天的狀態我自己個人 這幾天啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6263.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6271.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我也不想去新送 我也不想去說一直佔用司法資源但是呢 這個造謠已經到了極度的過分的狀態比如說假冒我的一個社群平台 假冒我的身份來發文說我就是 我是中國人 然後呢 我故意要搞亂台灣反正沒關係 把台灣搞爛了 我就可以去中國了 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6288.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6303.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
這個造謠這個假冒從今年初我就已經去提告然後我也澄清結果立刻這兩天再拿其他的造號繼續的來做無所謂所以現在的造謠是怎麼樣我過去我的選舉經驗算多的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6312.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6334.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
我們過去也沒有到這樣的一個腐爛性的而且已經被澄清的 已經被那個什麼甚至已經被提告 繼續拿來 無所謂來 再來最近又跑出來說 我到市場說人家不跟我握手 我罵人家無恥我作為一個這麼久的政治人物請問在市場 我怎麼會去 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6337.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6355.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
罵人家說你不跟我握手 我就罵你無恥市場這麼多人啊 不會引起群星激開嗎所以 這樣子的文不但自己在那邊發文 自己製造然後還有直接 我這邊直接點名自由時報記者在凌晨深夜一點多來發這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6358.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6380.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
來發這個完全這個沒有任何事實根據 也未經查證的請問一下我王蕙薇是美國股市嗎現在可能要凌晨發文的就是川普白宮有什麼發布 關稅有什麼發布昨天最新的訊息 或者美國股市怎麼樣已經到這種造謠無極限了 好再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6382.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6409.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
來下一頁 那你以為只有王宏威碰到嗎其實還有非常非常多的 造謠的團體 比如說我們過去的葉元芝這個委員 說他服務處沒有開門這樣的完全沒有界限的 在無法無天的造謠所以我要講的是 罷免其實形同我們的一個重大的選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6411.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6431.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
選舉罷免 選舉罷免 互相的嘛我承認我們現在罷免有很多的一些相關的 它的法令是不足的比如說有關於政治獻金的部分甚至它的起跑日 到現在為止因為我們都第一次罷免 我們都不是非常清楚但是 既然我們都進入了二階其實就已經進入 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6435.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6453.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
選舉的狀況了所以我剛才講這麼多的這些造謠跟罷免所以我希望我們相關單位警政署為什麼也請那個警政署是對不起啊副局長是副局長副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6454.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6471.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
所以我在這邊要求的是我們選舉罷免應該要有一致性的一個標準它不應該有兩套標準如果在選舉的時候不可以做的事情同樣罷免的時候也應該不可以做同不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6472.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6486.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我沒有讓你用兩套標準 是不是但是我知道因為我們這樣大規模罷免是我們真的是台灣第一次面臨到它幾乎已經是全國性的所以我在這邊要求我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6488.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6496.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
法務部要求我們警政署針對罷免的部分我剛剛說過去的選舉專案你們有加強查查我剛剛講說查會會選有沒有地下賭盤 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6504.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6527.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
這個賭博嘛 而且試圖影響選舉的結果 過去的地下賭盤其實它某一個程度都是在試圖影響選舉的結果好 還有這些造謠 試圖 我們說試圖使人不當選這個是試圖使人罷免而且完全 我剛剛舉的例子 都是完全無中生有的而這些都沒有辦法處理的話 請問我們算什麼民主國家嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6528.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6542.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我們算民主國家嗎所以拜託我們法務部還有我們警政署針對這一次的全國性罷免請大家用這個選舉的這樣的標準來做查查好不好可以嗎 市長可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6544.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6570.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
首先跟委員報告啦在法律面我們就選舉跟罷免在我們選報法他是做同樣的同等的規範所以剛剛委員所提到的散佈謠言不時來影響罷免案的通過跟不通過跟我們選舉是一模一樣的刑罰處罰並沒有差別的待遇這法律面跟委員報告那執行面的部分當然這是檢警的天職那假如說在查查賄選或罷免案都會盡全力的來執行好的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6574.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6597.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
好 謝謝好 那下一位我們請吳思瑤委員發言有請次長跟副秘好 麻煩次長 副秘書長委員早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6599.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6623.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我就先順著剛剛洪威委員所垂詢的那當然現在社會非常關注罷免的議題我高度的認同罷免比照選舉在既有的法律的秩序上有任何違反法律的事情就應當徹查跟偵辦但是前提是該告發當事人去告發嘛不是在這裡一直為難我們的官員們 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6625.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6651.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
因為今天站在我面前的不管是司法院的代表副秘書長或者是法務部的黃次長你們都不宜針對個案來表達意見你們更沒有辦法針對連提告連成為案件都沒有的案子去預作一些評判我們只能夠說如果有告發的話那我們當然敦促我們的辦案人員要嚴格嚴謹同樣的標準勿妄勿縱 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6654.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6665.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
所以我剛剛說呢 這個王宏威委員他一直在講造謠造謠我們現在的法律秩序如果你認為有人對你妨礙名譽毀謗可以怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6667.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6683.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
當然他如果是犯罪的被害人我們按照刑事法規定他是告訴全人嘛那當然可以向檢察官或司法檢察官提出所以如果真的要捍衛個人的權益我奉勸王委員他該做的事他可以去告罰而不是在這裡一直來為難你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6685.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6710.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
而一直在為難你們我是覺得你們沒有辦法為所謂造謠不造謠尤其很多在政治上的言論的事情你們不可能在這裡做出判準你們也不可能在這裡進行評判嘛但都是就我個人而言我也是被鎖定惡霸的當事者我怎麼做具體針對北投士林已經有人明顯的來舉證他並沒有參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6715.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6735.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
罷免吳思瑤的連署但是他卻被重複的冒名而且是兩次我手上有好幾個個案因為有具體的個案我能做的就是捍衛我的權利我就具體的提告只要提告我信任司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6737.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6761.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
只要提告就讓司法在司法的制度上往前走我要說的是這樣任何捍衛自己的權益我們尋求法律的保護該提告就提告我非常反對在這裡為難官員逼迫你們回答你們難以回答的個案問題甚至他還沒有成為司法的案件因為當事人沒有提告 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6762.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6785.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
而我捍衛我的法律權益 針對偽造文書的匿名 冒名的連署我絕不寬待 我就尋求司法的偵辦這是我的態度跟立場 因為台灣是法治國家那回到今天的主題喔我想兩位應當都有看到全國律師聯合會的一個對外的聲明新聞稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6786.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6797.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
其實社會對於某一個個案違反政交法的這位中性犯罪人他居然可以潛逃這件事情當然讓人氣憤 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6800.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6822.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這一粒老鼠使壞了一鍋粥賠上了司法的公信力這當然該怒啊但是權律會他們也提出該徹查還有制度上精進的一些建議但是我覺得有一句話他引用了英國前首相丘吉爾的一句話他說呢Never let a good crisis go to waste |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6823.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6842.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
千萬不要浪費了一個可以去檢視可以去改進的好機會要把危機化為我們制度精進的轉機所以夏業我就要問喔就一個個案來講我第一次看到劣勢裁定 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6844.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6861.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
你們司法院的報告書裡頭也寫說對於這樣子的用語於實務或學界並非通用啊其實你們還要容待探求它到底是什麼所以所謂的這個劣勢裁定是新生事物呢還是它是法界的陋習 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6863.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6881.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
第二个,从个案来解释通案,这整个事件到底是人为的疏失,还是我们制度产生了非常严重的疏漏。不要搞错方向,就我个人认为,这人为的疏失大很多啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6882.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6897.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
就是何怡婷的法官 就查她嘛 就辦她嘛所以從言究則絕不寬待 是我的第三個主張就我這三個探尋 你們要不要綜合回應一下是次長還是父命 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6898.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6926.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
好 謝謝委員垂詢那我想第一個問題是今天報告的那個主題那我們可以講那個結論就是說裁定呢跟判決不一樣它事實上在我們事務界或者說刑事訴訟法它也是允許就是說它並沒有一定的那個格式像我們有時候羈押人的時候因為現場都很緊張嘛一個晚上值班的時候要處理一二十件那所以我們是可以直接用那個押票因為押票上面也寫了理由就是說為什麼羈押這個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6927.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6939.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
還有他的案情就是跟那個裁定要求這個內容其實是一樣的所以呢在最高法院94年第10次的那個刑庭會議呢他就很明白的講就是說這樣子一個就是說簡單的這一種我們講說不是很形式很嚴格的這種格式呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6948.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6971.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
這個是承認的 那其實呢 重點不是在說你用什麼樣的 什麼格式嘛 什麼形式是你必須要宣誓出去 就是說你要依法成立了之後 譬如說何怡婷已經平業之後 這時候內容已經裁定內容 法院的決定已經成立了嘛那成立了之後 依法 這形式訴訟法都規定了很清楚 我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6972.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6987.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
絕大部分應該是幾乎是所有的法官也都會踐行就是說這樣一個裁定一定要依法或者是當庭呢把它給宣示出去然後依刑事訴訟法50條把它寫在筆錄上那或者呢就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6988.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7006.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
如果不是先宣誓是先寫完一個裁定書原本的話那就是把它做成正本然後送達給那個當事人之後再公告就是這都是一個法定程序所以今天重點不是說這個格式有沒有寫了那個簡單而是說你要依照法定程序去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7007.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7021.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
謝謝複蜜您的說明給了您比較長的時間我並不是法界、實務界所以您的這些分享對我也是一個很大的學習但我要說的就是我覺得今天大家在質詢這個議題真的不要搞錯方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7022.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7047.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
不要搞錯方向就我個人來看 因為你們的報告寫了一堆我們現在的科技的防範的制度我們110年建構的在我們士林地院樓上二樓所建置完成的這個中心科技設備監控中心軟體硬體如何如何我認為制度有了 軟硬體有了而且不斷的去精進它 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7049.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7071.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
然後我們要做的是推廣讓更多的檢察官法官他願意他信任要採用這樣子的方式來作為羈押的替代作為對不對這是我們制度上去檢視我個人認為制度已經有了該有的軟硬體包括立法院該支持的預算還有所有的法規我們也都盡可能的健全了 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7071.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7098.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
但是從這個個案來檢視的話我認為就是嚴重的不當的司法的弊案的個人的行為嘛所以就是要從嚴究則絕不寬待是這個案子最最重要的事情如果就這個個案可以簡單的就這樣就這樣落跑了然後我們對於這個何怡婷的法官假設輕輕放下或是沒有清楚的去給社會一個好的交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7100.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7128.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
誰都沒有辦法接受那現在這個就責的程序進度到哪裡對於這個你們的評鑑報告委員那個在高院在3月31號做成的自律委員會決議要移送法評那在昨天呢也將這個申請書已經送到了法律那個評鑑委員會了是我們尊重評鑑委員會最終的結果但是就這個案子如果沒有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7129.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7151.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
非常讓大家可以接受的最終的一個評判的結果我想他可能會引發更多的對於司法公信力的懷疑或者是政治的紛擾但我還是尊重這個評議會他們最終的決定那今天的這個主題我還是再次說不要畫錯方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7152.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7160.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
你們的報告都寫了好多然後我也覺得沒有錯啊你們現在做的法規面然後對於這個科技的這個監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7162.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7185.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
人為該做就是說軟體多少人執行然後你們不斷的去推廣遊說讓大家信任這個監控的系統願意去啟用然後我們的設置中心都已經建置完備了那我覺得在制度上的缺漏面我覺得相對是我可以比較放心我站在監督的角色但是對於我們法界存有多少這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7187.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7202.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
一顆老鼠屎的這種老鼠屎就要把它揪出來而且已經被揪出來的老鼠屎就一定要好好把它汰除好好把它做出一個從嚴從嚴的究責這是這個案子給我最大最大 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7203.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7222.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我認為我一定要堅持的至於制度面該做的已經做了那我們就把它做更好我們就把它做更多Let's all好嗎所以呢邱吉爾的這句話千萬不要錯失了一個好的危機危機看起來是危險的是負面的但是從危機當中轉為為安 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7224.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7244.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
讓它成為一個制度的檢視或者是一個大家對於法律秩序的重新的理解我覺得這是有正向的意義的好 謝謝您 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員那接下來我們先麻煩翁曉琳委員代理主席謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7264.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7267.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
現在請吳宗憲委員質詢麻煩法務部次長還有司法院副秘書長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7278.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7300.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
你好好謝謝兩位兩位早安我現在我們就直接提到因為我們今天的主題是蠻明確聚焦的所以我想說我的問題就很簡單啦我先請教一下司法院對於被告的電子監控不予延長的決定是不是需要下裁定麥克風要開謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7303.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7321.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
跟委員報告就是說因為那個電子監控他是要下期間的嘛那理論上如果說是期間已經到了之後他不去繼續的話是不用下那但是我現在講另一個情形就是說那你本來要下為什麼不下了所以通常他就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7322.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7338.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
就有些他就會用其他的 譬如說加了那個保證金把你加保證金 然後去替代那這個替代是刑事訴訟法116條之一他依那個第二項 這叫變更處分那如果是變更處分的話 他就必須要下裁定 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7339.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7362.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
謝謝複密複密我們講到一個完全的本案重點因為這個案子已經判決確定所以我們來討論本案我想不會有干預個案的問題對不對我先講這個免得有人誤會了第二個 複密剛講得非常的正確就是說如果期限已經到了當然沒有問題但是本案我們不管期限是不是已經到了但是法官他有下一個加保兩千萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7365.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7373.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
他等於是變更嘛所以這個東西是不是就是應該要以裁定為之並不是期限到 兩個是不一樣的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7374.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7401.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我們不針對這個個案我們就是說假如說有一個情形他就是去把它加保然後去不再繼續延長的話那這個依剛剛講的這是刑事訴訟法161-1第二項的變更處變更處分那依刑事訴訟法121條確實他就是應該要下好 那我們如果說用通案的來看就是如果今天你是變更原來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7402.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7423.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
才決定嘛 就是提高的這個保證金的話其實它是要以一個裁定的方式為止我想這個從通案的角度來看是沒有問題所以其實我們都很清楚啦裁定大概我們依據那個訴訟法的規定其實它就是幾種嘛 用口頭宣示或是筆錄然後或者是說用書面嘛 大概主要是這三種嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7424.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7445.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
對不對 就是刑訴的224條還有50條還有227條我想說226跟227我想這個非常的明確都有規範那但是呢像剛剛吳委員他講的非常的正確其實今天重點並不是說略是與否的問題而是說今天是到底這個裁定有沒有生效 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7445.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7465.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
因為法官雖然說他做的是一個劣勢劣勢裁定也不是說實務上沒有看過啦你很多積壓的處理他就是用劣勢裁定但是積壓的處理他這種劣勢裁定他至少會有一個譬如說當庭宣誓譬如說載名筆錄或者是送達等等這個方式嘛所以今天一定要有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7466.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7483.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
結束之後才算是生效譬如說以送達來說好了總是送達第一個第一位收受送達者這個才定才會對外發生效力請問複密症我剛剛講的有沒有問題我覺得您是食物專家所以您講的完全正確也是我們現在食物上在做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7484.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7509.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
所以說 我想說本件的問題 我覺得我們就跳脫所謂的略是與否的這概念其實這跟本案其實重點 或是劃這個是劃錯所以其實今天這個裁定我們從頭到尾發現就是說他並沒有去踐行我們剛剛說的各種方式不管是口頭告知當事人 或者是筆錄記載或者是有送達 都沒有嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7510.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7532.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
我想說這個案子有這個問題所以即使說就算說今天有一個書面裁定也不會說原本跟正本差了五個多月我想說我沒有看過這樣的裁定書或判決書五個多月是有一點誇張然後第二個就是說我也沒有聽說過請書記官製作原本這件事情不管院檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7534.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7546.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
原本基本上都是法官 檢察官所製作那署議官他是製作正本但是他不可能叫他去直接做原本去做裁定書或判決書啊還是 複密您的想法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7550.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7573.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
這個個案我無從評論不是不是我不是說個案我現在說通案通案會請依規定就是那個刑事訴訟法相關的那個像五十條五十一五十五這些那個裁判說原本一定是由那個法院製作完然後簽名之後然後交給書記官製作正本對所以我剛剛講的就是這個對這是一個法定程序對不管是 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7575.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7597.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
原本就是法官或檢察官所製作他不會由書記官來製作所以說之前說什麼書記官沒有製作原本這個其實這個說法是蠻奇怪所以說這個第一個原本正本製作日期差了五個多月這是蠻奇怪的我們再看一下所以我覺得今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7599.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7623.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我開頭會講其實就是程序的問題啦這案子就是程序的問題那我覺得從去年到現在發生了很多事包括比如說高煌案的案子那個檢方那邊有中斷16分鐘的錄音這個程序就不對我不論這些人是否構成犯罪但程序就不對那比如說柯文哲的案子偵查大公開啦然後起訴書穿插一些跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7624.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7652.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
構成了無關的事實 而且比例非常的高嘛然後讓很多政論名嘴可以拿去做文章或是說後來北檢發聲說 你明明就是去醫院就訓 但是你新聞稿前後兩次說的又不一樣所以其實這段時間會讓我們感覺說 那到底司法怎麼了 因為我們以前就是覺得說司法人員他應該是他對於自己道德的操守要求是非常非常的高所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7653.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7663.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
到底什麼時候發生 連司法人員都帶頭出來去說謊或者是有一些很極少數的司法人員 甚至配合的政治人物在那邊左右搖擺 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7665.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7685.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我比較難過的就是說司法要建立起人民的信任他要花上百年幾十年百年的時間但是你要摧毀他可能幾個案子幾個月就摧毀這是我最不願意見到今天變成這個樣子就像說我昨天在這邊問一個非常簡單的問題我國有無鼓吹戰爭罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7687.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7704.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
結果部長就是講了一堆根本無關的法條或是講公然侮辱跟誹謗其實那個就很奇怪然後陳廷長他也沒有回答我想說其實司法人員應該要有勇氣來去面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7705.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7722.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
任何權貴以及罪犯嘛就像很多人以前說警察官就提著人頭在辦案因為我們得罪的都是社會上面的黑道或者是權貴的人嘛那如果今天你在面對一個這麼簡單ABC的問題我國有無鼓吹戰爭罪你都不好意思講的話那 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7723.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7737.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
這樣我們對司法我們的信任度真的會越來越低再來我想說這一次我們針對這個個案我們還發現一個狀況就是電話紀錄跟被抽換的問題從這個地方我們看到電話紀錄的抽換除了它增加了一個不予延長監控設備的記載 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7751.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7763.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
他檢查 他法官跟書記官還倒填了印章的日期我想這個司法院會認同這種事嗎這個章顯然是倒填的我想 請問複密 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7765.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7783.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這個部分就是依行說法40條就是有關於這個那個公文書製作之後那個修改他事實上是有一定的嚴謹的那個程序那所以這一件我們先不談就是說那個內容的那個真實性與否就是這個程序上已經事實上是已經違反已經有違失了 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7784.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7803.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
所以說當然你說公文書原來製作有誤然後後面要修正絕對不是不行但是我們要進行一定的程序更不可能發生說你直接抽換而且還把日期一張倒回去概用印章我想這個是非常明顯的錯誤而且法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7804.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7816.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
做這樣的事情其實是很不得理這就是在等於是欺騙了嘛等於是對外就是欺騙嘛你在3月14號月券的版本都還出現舊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7818.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7831.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
的那個電話紀錄單上面有舊的日期章結果你在3月20號月卷的時候它的版本變成另外一個版本那個印章再怎麼樣都是稻田回去蓋的你等於是在114年的3月20號 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7835.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7862.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
倒田回去蓋113年10月14號的印章你等於是倒田回去 這很不應該啦所以麻煩治療院這邊也要詳細的了解到底狀況是怎麼樣那再來我想請教一下就你們審理的期間呢 就是需不需要確確那個拒保這個處分呢 有沒有送達檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7864.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7881.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這個東西你們到底有沒有控管因為檢察官總是收到他才能抗告嘛現在這一件的話他從頭到尾什麼都沒有那到底院方目前是怎麼樣控管這個動作就法官如果有裁定那他送達與否這個有沒有人在控管這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7886.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7887.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
有本職在記載是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7910.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7933.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
有本職在記載這些東西嗎不然你會不會有漏送啊或等等的狀況發生都會有案件記錄就是有控管就對了就是個案裡頭在電腦裡頭他都會有一個成案那更可以去了解說本案根本沒有裁定如果像您說的只要有裁定我們就會追蹤他有沒有送達那如果說照這樣看的話本案 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7934.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7951.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
就是沒有裁定啊如果有裁定你們會追蹤後面有沒有送達但本案從頭到尾都沒有送達過所以回過頭來看根本就是沒有裁定我想沒有裁定是一個沒有做出裁定書對我想這是一個事實啊您懂我的意思嗎您說有裁定你們就會追蹤有沒有送達 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7952.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7971.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那這個本案自始至終都檢察官都沒有收到、送達過那是不是根本就沒有裁定他們有做成 這個合議題有做成一個決定可是是把它寫在那個審理單上 有這樣一個決定那只是這樣一個決定的話 我們廣義也把它叫裁定那只是說它完全沒有做成那個裁定書去送達所以這個部分就是你們控管不到的 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7977.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7999.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
因為他根本 他連寫都沒寫他就是沒有做成正式的那個裁定書啊 對好吧 那沒關係啦但是不管如何 我剛剛最一開始我已經提到裁定有三種那三種模式嘛 看起來都不是應該不會說記載在審理單就叫做裁定吧可以這麼說嗎可以說記載在審理單就是有裁定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8001.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8022.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
這個個案的決定因為可能還會有救濟的問題我想我們就不再回答那我想不管怎麼樣這些案子我們這樣看起來就是最近的譬如說朱國榮的案子還有中文字林秉永等等的這些案子其實就讓人民有個感覺就是好像權貴犯案都可以逍遙法外 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8023.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8047.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
我今天為什麼犯案會被押 那就是因為我不是權貴 所以我就有逃亡之虞所以讓人民會感覺到到底法院本來應該所有的人在司法面前都是一視同仁那是不是在面對權貴的時候就完全不太一樣所以我想說在這次的案子裡面 還是要麻煩司法院法務部這邊能夠想出一個對策 不能讓這種狀況再發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8050.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8074.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那更何況 其實我們再參考一下中文字的案子前面那個紀法官 他多次對於這個被告他所提出來申請他希望出國等等的 他都拒絕那他其實他的裁定 我覺得我看完之後 我覺得他之前的裁定幾乎都可以當作教科書他寫得非常的完整 譬如說他有提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8075.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8094.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
罪名非清然後原審判決很重還有他侵害的這些投資人的權益也很大還有他獲利非常的高等等的再加上這個人之前他有多次譬如說他有用假的資料想要出國或者是說他曾經也被通緝過 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8096.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8112.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
還有這些等等的狀況其實他都寫在他原本的裁定裡面他其實後面的法官很容易就可以依照前面紀法官他所調查的資料就知道這個人他有非常大的逃亡可能性那為什麼還會在之前有一次是律師出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8115.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8138.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
而說當作保證人那這個被告就可以出國去香港這個也很奇怪因為我以前審理案子的話如果這個被告他有這麼多的狀況我根本不敢讓他出境啊甚至他曾經被通緝過都會讓我不敢給他交保或者是不敢讓他出國的最主要原因那這個被告呢他 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8139.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8156.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
獲利這麼高的情況下他之前有很多不良的對於這個不按期到庭等等他有不良的記錄那為什麼還會讓他讓他後來還可以出國去開會還可以這個卸除他的電子監控設備這個都是我們覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8158.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8180.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
很難以想像的啦 以我自己的實務經驗 我覺得這還難以想像但是法官總是獨立審判嘛 那我就不多說那我再請教司法院 高院現在有幾個金融專庭四庭請問一下 這次這兩位大家認為有問題的法官 他們還在金融專庭嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8183.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8201.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
那個目前還在那但是應該是會即將要做那個調整因為那個庭長他現在已經那個免件庭長了對是好那我們這都尊重司法院的決定好那我在這邊就跟那個複密這邊就是說一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8203.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8219.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
這個金融犯的防逃標準可能要麻煩司法院再訓練就是說我們對於法官我們不能以一句說司法獨立法官獨立審判所以我不能跟法官講什麼這個沒有錯這是對於個案嘛但是對於通案的教育訓練司法院真的還是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8220.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8248.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
對於這個金融庭的法官要跟他們再教育因為獲利高他本身他就有足夠的經濟能力在國外生活他就如果那個量刑的刑度又高他就有非常大在國外逃亡到國外生活的動機所以這部分要麻煩您就像我禮拜一的時候禮拜一我跟這個次長跟黃次長我們去那個士林地檢的二樓就是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8249.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8274.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
科控中心我們去考察的時候其實我當時也有說希望司法院能夠提出這些通緝犯前三大逃跑的理由還有出境的前三大案有還有棄保的前三大案有還有人數各式什麼那天我有請司法院要準備這些資料其實我準備這個我並不是說我要拿來做什麼用而是我希望這個資料完整之後給基層法官去做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8274.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8297.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
有這些狀況前三大理由就是他們最有可能跑的我想這個我們就是要替人民做一件事情就是不能讓人民覺得權貴好像都有特權犯罪獲得很大利益之後就跑光光了那我們也希望說不要讓法官就是一直在象牙塔裡面沒有啦 就很多人民都覺得法官檢察官都活在象牙塔裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8302.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8317.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
法官論壇其實有人就抱怨很多法官論壇就提到這次他講的這個怎麼會是這個劣勢裁定的這個說法其實就是被法官在法官論壇上面已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8318.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8339.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
就是攻擊蠻多的那這個其實我剛剛也都有講啦我個人從頭到尾都不認為這個是劣勢裁定劣勢裁定有但是在我們實務來說幾乎都出現在羈押因為羈押常常是很晚嘛很晚的晚上所以他可能有時候會用劣勢裁定但是不管劣勢裁定正式裁定等等的一定會有送達的動作這個我想大家都沒有什麼爭議啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8343.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8363.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
所以就是最近有些法官在法官論壇上面其實就是有在抱怨那檢察官論壇裡面也是很多人在那邊講說最近北檢等等的做法其實讓很多非北檢或甚至北檢裡面的檢察官也都有不滿所以為什麼司法會走到今天連司法官 法官檢察官自己都覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8365.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8389.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
這些同事做法不可思議那就請大家要注意一下最後30秒我想說其實林三田教授跟陳定南這兩個是我一個是在學生時代對我最大啟發另外一個是在我出來當檢察官第一年的部長其實他們都告訴我們心中 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8390.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8404.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
黑白是非要放在前面立場放在後面我一直都這一輩子我都還是一直堅持堅守的這個信念那林三田的這本刑法通論啊他曾經對外說過說這通論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8407.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8435.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
書外皮是他設計的我想兩位一定都念過啦他說為什麼他設計這樣的外皮他的用色只有黑跟白因為他生前的時候講說他心中他對於法律以及對於這個社會運用法律的想法就是黑白而不是立場所以我很希望說我們全國的司法人員一定要記得這件事情像陳立南也是跟我們講啊心中是是非對錯而不是立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8437.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8461.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我出來第一年的時候在當一個基層的最菜鳥的檢察官的時候他就親口這樣跟我講然後學生時代的03年他也是這樣跟我們講結果到今天我們看到司法人員也開始學著騙人開始學著發一些前後不一致的新聞稿我想說這都是我們自己要檢討的啦那這部分我希望司法院以及法務部能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8462.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8481.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
很重視這個事情好不好就是說不管如何我們還是希望司法人員要當作人民最值得信賴的一群人絕對要記得法律跟制度一定要長治久安不能配合政客或執政者在搖擺好 謝謝兩位謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8495.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8514.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我們先做會議宣告稍後叫翁曉琳委員請答完畢之後休息五分鐘現在我們請翁曉琳委員進行發言請司法院副秘書長 王秘書長麻煩副秘書長還有警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8516.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8537.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
警政署的長官 林副局長嗎好副局長我想首先先請教司法院還有警政署就是針對目前在台灣的我們的通緝犯人數還有潛逃出境的人數有沒有做過統計通緝犯人數應該是會有數據啦那個會後我再跟委員補 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8546.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8547.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
通緝犯人數潛逃出境的人數到目前為止有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8563.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8579.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
司法院有是不是這是司法院所那個發布的在那個113年發布通緝的是4128件多少4128但是這是司法院所發布的因為可能還有包括那個檢方這些我們就沒有列進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8580.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8607.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
是那我想說之後可能今天的質詢會後麻煩司法院還有警政署這裡都可以給我一些相關的數據比較精準的到目前為止那麼有多少的行蹤不明的通緝犯還有這個潛逃出境的人數因為可能這個通緝犯的人數我們也許在新聞上面可以找得到但是對於潛逃出境的人數其實並沒有特別的統計所以我本行想要了解相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8609.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8626.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
數字所以請兩個單位到時候提供給我知道那麼還有另外就是我們知道其實現在實施這個科技監控雖然說案件數不多但是主要的犯罪類型是違和那麼這個部分不知道你們現在手頭上面有相關的數據嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8632.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8633.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
對於目前實施科技監控的犯罪類型 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8641.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8660.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
在過去大部分都是以性侵害犯罪類型為主或是緩刑的那從近年來大概從113年之後因為整個實施科技監控的案件數明顯增加我想這個應該也是因為審計部曾經有做出一個報告說 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8661.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8673.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我們雖然花了上億元去成立科技設備監控中心就在高檢署底下設置科技設備監控中心但是使用率偏低 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8674.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8678.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
所以我可以看到從110年到111 112年其實當時的案件數都不多大概從113年之後突然之間的案件數就提高比較多到目前為止大概就是217件但是事實上跟我們花了上億元去成立這個科技設備監控中心來看的話其實使用率仍然是不高那麼對於防範 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8699.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8712.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
被告的這個逃逸仍然是杯水車薪所以本席希望就是你們之後能夠給我提供一個比較詳細的數據就是實施科技監控的主要犯罪類型有哪些現在可以簡單講嗎我們現在這邊有那個報告就有個統計那個前三名其實是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8720.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8731.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
是毒品危害還有違反銀行法跟貪污因為我們分得比較細第四跟第五是詐欺跟違反政交法所以總結來講的話其實大部分都是重大的經濟犯罪是 這個部分的話其實跟其他國家的做法比較不一樣我們參考像是韓國或是日本 德國這些地方當然德國基本上認為說實施 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8748.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8765.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
電子監控設備可能有嚴重侵害人權之虞所以他們非常審慎的使用那但是像是韓國等國家基本上都還是聚焦在就是以性侵害犯罪的類型為主或是有這種暴力犯罪但是台灣現在看起來反而是 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8768.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8775.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
實施電子療靠可能是在貪污或者重大的經濟犯罪的部分那麼這個部分的話本席是認為是不是有檢討的餘地因為實施電子療靠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8782.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8810.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
就是實施這種電子腳銬或是手環的這樣的一個去監控犯罪監控這個受刑人其實在過去都會被認為這是有侵害人權之虞而且它實際上它的監控效果如何我覺得這個基本上是應該要去檢討的那麼當然接下來本席想要請教就是說為什麼到目前為止我們的科控設備的使用率會偏低 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8813.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8832.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
就是如果說你們說這是涉及到重大經濟犯罪的話實施這個電子療靠可是以目前看起來的狀況我們其實台灣重大經濟犯罪案件非常之多炸漆罪等等的但是實際上目前開案的案件數是低的這是什麼原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8837.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8857.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
科技監控它是替代羈押的一個處分法官要不要使用這樣子的一個處分他需要考慮的事項很多譬如說他如果說是在一審或是說起訴了是涉及的犯罪的刑度是很高的或者是案罪情節 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8858.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8874.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
還有說對被告影響還有就是說他還沒有其他那些處分可以替代他考量那個事情非常多我們也必須就是說有些法官也許對於就是說這樣子的一個設備畢竟它是一個新的 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8875.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8896.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
整個流程不是那麼清楚所以我們這幾年來呢就是說司法院也很強力的就是在做這種賠利就是說一個叫雖然是法官的那個禁修那還有就是說開放他們讓他們到實際上去參觀這個整個科控中心怎麼個那個運作的讓他們那個熟悉這套制度的運作好是謝謝富米剛剛的說這個解說明喔那麼事實上確實目前我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8902.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8925.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
這個實施科技監控要考量的因素很多按照我們現行法官來講因為他並沒有像是韓國他是把聚焦在特定的罪行所以很多的案就是幾乎就是各式各樣類型的案件如果說法官認為有需要其實就可以實施科技監控但是這樣子的個案認定坦白說又可能過於寬鬆那麼本席是認為說司法院是不是應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8927.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8954.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
去提出一個就實施科技監控的一個作業辦法或是一個實施的標準對於哪一些重要的犯罪類型可以國立法官們實施科技監控那哪一些其實是不必要的那麼因為我們知道其實像以這次柯文哲他這個雖然說涉及貪污的這樣的一個罪行但是畢竟他還是當時在羈押當中然後就懷疑他有串供之虞所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8956.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8968.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
施以科技監控而要戴上電子镣銬但是這個對於國人的印象來講會認為說這過去大家都認為是性侵害犯罪者然後才會實施電子镣銬那現在不管是柯文哲或是謝榮 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8970.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8994.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
這樣子一個情況固然可能他們或許有犯罪嫌疑但是有必要要去實施這個電子镣銬戴上這個電子腳銬嗎這對外界來講會覺得說就算是戴上電子腳銬好了這個有可能會防範他們會有串供之魚嗎因為我們知道現在其實電子監控的它的效果是有限的 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8996.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9023.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
對不對它的GPS的電子監控最主要的那個目的事實上就是防逃啊那跟串供這個地方對的那個一個目的事實上是比較沒有相關是那可是如果說以柯文哲案子來講的話會有可能會逃亡嗎也就是法官其實在對於這些個案的認定的時候坦白說我覺得確實是過於寬鬆然後完全是法官自己的心證他要怎麼做就怎麼做這是所以我認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9025.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9050.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
司法院其實應該要召開相關的會議或是要負責任的提出相關的標準而不是說是給法官太大的空間然後去做這樣的一個裁定接下來我還要再談的一個就是說這次中文制的氣保潛逃案裡面其實可以凸顯出一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9052.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9081.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
就是停止監控的程序可能出現漏洞那麼剛剛幾個委員其實都有談到為什麼會出現有這個法官做了裁定但是他其實只是個審理單並不是個正式的裁定書所以至於在科技監控設備中心那裡可能就已經解除了相關的這個就已經解除了相關的電子監控那其實本席有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9082.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9088.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
依照法院辦理科技設備監控處分之處理原則第六點裡面有一個問題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9090.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9118.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
科技監控如果期間限滿而沒有延長的時候呢是必須要到科技監控平台去進行結案的可是呢在這個中間可能會出現有一個漏洞的程序就是法官或是書記官這邊做了裁定那可是他可能並沒有在時間上可能並沒有通知到檢察官這裡所以未來有沒有可能可以做一個double check的 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9119.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9142.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
的這樣的一個機制報告委員就是說您在這裡所揭示這個情形呢他是指說他訂了一個期間然後期間到了之後他沒有再那個延長那這個其實事實上都有各種那個機制事實上是會提醒這個法官說原來這一個時間已經那個已經快到了就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9144.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9160.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
有各種 我在這裡就不詳談 他事實上是有各種機制會通知法官是不是要去延長 那所以說像就是說那從法官再去通知到這個科技監控平台 因為這看起來就是書記官自己上科技平台自己去進行結案 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9161.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9184.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
因為法官他要決定要再繼續延長的話他就會再下一個裁定那他這時候如果說他沒有說要延長的話這時候就是命書記官會直接上這個科技監控平台去進行結案嗎因為他的時間已經到了所以本來理論上如果說他沒有再變更就譬如說用其他的處分去替代 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9185.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9205.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
甚至於有可能就是說那就直接回到其他但是在進行結案的同時會這個檢察官這邊會知道嗎檢察官這邊會不會知道當他進行結案的這個動作的時候他上網去填表有沒有一個double check機制就是說他同時這個結案的這個通知 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9207.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9230.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那麼可以同時間就是去複製或是同時同步的讓這個承辦的檢察官因為原來在下這一個定期間的那個科控處分的時候其實這個裁定原來的那個本來檢察官他也會知道他會知道說這個期間是到什麼時候就已經那個時間就到了他原來就會知道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9231.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9242.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
對 但是大家不會一直會盯在那邊然後去算我一卡那至於說科控中心除了通知法院這邊會不會檢方這一段的話這個部分我可能就不是那麼清楚 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9244.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9265.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
總之就是說從周文智這個案子裡面也凸顯出整個法院的科技監控平台其實他可能並沒有一個double check雙重認證的一個機制如果說未來法院進行結案的時候是不是相關的資訊都應該同步的要告知這個檢察官那邊可以做一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9266.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9278.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
這個如果說他們到時候認為其實是要提起抗告等等的這相關的措施我覺得這樣的話或許今天鄭文智的案子就不會發生這當然就是我們在檢視相關流程的時候有發現這樣的問題本席也是就提供給這個司法院這裡做參考那麼可以將這個相關的流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9288.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9315.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
研擬的更細緻就是避免出現像是中文制的這個案子好那接下來我還要再請教的就是如果說今天這個違反了這科技監控規定的相關的就是受刑人如果說他違反了科技監控的規定那麼目前看起來是沒有任何的處罰的規定他只是又重新 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9317.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9330.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
這個就重新再被羈押譬如說我們以最近看到的遠航的動作張剛維那麼因為何怡婷收到就說科技中心的報告說他有七次都違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9331.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9333.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
這個科控規定的這個警示狀況而且看起來他就行進的路線有經過漁港所以法院又裁定羈押那當然張高為他那裡有他自己的說法那我們這裡就不再去就他這個說法來 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9348.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9370.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
來請教司法院但是我現在的意思是說其實GPS的定位一方面它可能會有誤差因為它會有飄移實際的位置跟GPS接收器所收到的訊號不見得會一樣那麼再說就是我們也看到韓國的例子韓國是之前它也是有個性侵犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9371.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9377.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
他洗滿出浴之後他回到他妻子的住處後來又發現說他佩戴腳鐐然後這個但是在夜間就擅自離開住處那麼最後這個警方檢方是以他違反了韓國的電子設備安裝法的罪名然後再給這個罪犯處以 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9392.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9416.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
一年有期徒刑還有罰款那麼簡單來說就是對於我們現在相關的法規裡面如果說是受刑人那麼他違反了電子腳鐐的等等的科技監控的規定除了就是再回去被羈押之外那麼有沒有可能要為了我們可以朝向修法還要再處以罰還或者是再處另外的這個罪名 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9423.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9447.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
這個部分應該是涉及廣義那個防害司法公正罪那今天下午就有個會議這個未來會朝下就是防害司法是是有個黨團協商是立法院黨團協商可是這會涉及跟防害司法公正罪有關嗎是的這事實上也是屬於這一個也是屬於違反法院所下的那個命令啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9449.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9455.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以包括如果說它有違反科技監控的規定的話都有可能會納入在妨害司法公證罪的類型裡面我想我今天並不是針對中文制的個案來進行詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9469.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9471.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
而是廣泛的針對電子監控的相關的事情那麼從本席檢視相關的法規裡面也發現可能在程序上面還是有些漏洞那麼經過這幾個案例之後本席希望說司法院可以好好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9485.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9501.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
去檢討未來是不是應該要修訂相關的辦法那麼甚至如果對於這個妨害司法公認罪除了罪之外是不是還可以科處其他的罰金那麼甚至如果有可能是當成是一種特別行政罰款來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9502.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9531.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
那麼這個部分的話就希望司法院可以通盤檢討好 謝謝委員那麼至於本席要求的相關的資訊就是通緝犯人數 潛逃出境人數還有施以科技監控主要犯罪類型的資料也麻煩司法院會後再提供給本席那只是潛逃出境這個部分因為司法院不是主責機關所以我們沒有統計法務部嗎 還是警政署這裡現在是法務部跟司法院他們各自 潛逃我們也沒有我們就是通緝犯好 那就麻煩請法務部這裡提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9533.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9552.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
各位報告當然偵查中跟執行中通緝人數是可以但是潛逃境外的這沒辦法統計因為潛逃境外他到底因為什麼原因而潛逃境外我們是不同理解的他也許是非法的潛逃境外也許是他雙重國籍潛逃境外所以潛逃境外的確確人數是沒有辦法統計的但是目前在 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9553.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9569.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
以前到現在我們偵查中的通緝人數大概三萬多人累積了那執行大概一萬多人加起來大約五萬人左右的執行人數到這些數字我大概這部分都只可以提供給委員所以您說是非法潛逃到海外的對 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9569.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9598.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
人數你沒有辦法統計我們現在有通緝的人數但通緝之後他有可能藏匿在國內有可能藏匿在國外藏匿在國外他不是按照正式的通關程序出去的他也許是非法偷渡出境的他也許另外拿雙重國籍出境的所以這部分的話他沒有辦法確切去控管境外通緝的人數這個是沒有辦法的還是說可以就是這樣就是說就是你們目前手上可以知道的境外的通緝人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9599.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9628.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
就是不排除偷渡的這些可以這些數字你們是有的嗎我們盡量收集但事實上它是事實上它有事實上的困難是沒有辦法收集啦那我們盡量的收集看看就是如果說是可以有相關的數據的話還是請次長可以提供給我我想這不是機密吧這不是確定這不是機密嗎不是不是不過呢我知道你們現在很為難嘛全部都要經過行政院長核可是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9629.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9653.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
是不是 本席最近也有向法務部請求一些資料你們有在報院長核可嗎坦白說我很希望卓榮泰能夠看到我每一份所知因為我發現他不是很認真也不是很用功的院長讓他了解立法委員所知的內容我覺得這是很必要的好 OK 不為難次長就先這樣 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9659.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9681.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
卓榮泰那說法非常荒謬,絕對荒謬,然後院長要先審核立委要怎麼治療,破壞我國憲政體制而已剛剛有宣告休息五分鐘,不好意思,那我們就先休息五分鐘,耽誤大家時間,不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10116.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10117.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
好,我們繼續開會,接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10150.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10153.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
私法正義公平很重要更不能讓人民打不起官司我們最近訴訟的裁判費怎麼一下子漲那麼多委員可以給我一兩分鐘報告嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10176.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10204.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
很多人在陳情欸你搞到人民都打不起官司你騙不騙騙這樣喔是好來一分鐘啦好不好短一點我再五分鐘你拿走一分鐘來像委員報告說第一個這個事實上是有法院那個依據的就是說法院是可以調的那我們法院端呢在民國九十二年調了之後二十幾年來這個是二十幾年來第一次調那因為我們收了裁判費之後就所有花了這些費用啊像 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10204.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10222.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
那個法官可能要出差就是或者是說這些那個時數什麼車費的還有最重要的這些油資事實上都是這些錢那20幾年來呢就是說我們就是這地方有有去查就是我們的那個消費消費者物價指數呢不管是油電或者是基本工資呢調漲的是17%到那個66 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10225.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10246.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那我們這一次其實增加幅度只有一點那另外呢就是說這個其實在那個司法法制委員會也有那個也有就是兩度就是有在這裡公聽會還有委員也希望說可以那個主張增加那最後一個跟委員報告是其實整個制度的那個設計都有考慮到就是弱勢者因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10247.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10269.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
大部分的這些費用是一般人用的那但是就是弱勢者這有考慮到就是說如果說他們真的是攪不起的時候其實都有那個訴訟救助那最後那個事實上只是預爭就打贏的時候這些關那個費用事實上他還是有轉嫁謝謝委員給我時間報告其實這兩個陳情講的不是你剛講的一點這條太大點了你來我們看一下這個條文看一下這個條文你本來這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10279.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10293.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
第77-2對不對77-2你這個最大條譜就是三就是那個二分之一嘛蛤對啦不不不我說不是啦我說你這個條譜來上個條文給那個給富民看一下上個上個條文對沒有錯77-277條是27嘛齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10297.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10321.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
本法應徵收之裁判費 各高等法院得因這是有授權給你沒有錯 你看但其加徵的這個數額不得超過原額數的十分之五 對 二分之一嘛你這本 用最上線這條欸跟委員報告 對不對而且那個是最普遍的人 對不對最普遍的人 我給你看 因為你已經用了一分鐘 我給你看一下了 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10323.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10341.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
已經十萬塊以下的 已經十萬塊以下的原裁判費是一千嘛 對不對你這邊要跳幾元錢 這個拉得太大了如果是一百萬的 以前要花一萬九百塊喔你現在一下跳到一萬三千兩百塊錢那如果是一千塊的這個標的十萬 一下跳到十一萬八千五百塊錢這個幅度真的太大了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10350.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10375.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
不是你講的一點啦太太點那個忽密抵紮最近有引起一個很大爭議就是那個進口那個3C產品750塊之亂有沒有是是你這樣下去也是變成會是一個新的750塊之亂啊現在是很多陳情說調太高了啦我覺得有沒有750塊後來就連行政院長都出來踩煞車嘛對不對NC也踩煞車我覺得適度看用什麼方式這個幅度有機會可以稍微再調調價嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10377.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10396.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我可以再讓我解釋一下就是說其實我們那個所謂的那個調招十分之五有沒有這個只有在十萬以下的就是說小額那我們是希望說民眾因為台灣事實上使用那個訴訟的成本真的非常低我們希望民眾就是說他們有紛爭的時候他們可以想一下說 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10396.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10418.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
到法院來這是不是一個好的一個經濟的符合他們經濟的一個效益所以我們是把十萬以下這個地方就是做一個大幅度那反而是說像那個一千萬或者是說數額比較高的這個條幅都比較低啊就是因為那個十萬以下的最多嘛我給你看那個案件數你看一下這個影響的人最多啊對不對你對那個最多的人調的最大要嘛你就那個最高的人調高一點啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10426.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10429.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
10萬以下的這個建築占你112年的時候占你所有樹中縣市的41.24在111年的時候也是41點多 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10442.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10455.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
這比例是最大宗嘛結果你影響的人影響的人最多然後你調的幅度一二十二分之一那怎麼對 應該是對的應該是訴訟費用越高的人調越多啊是不是這樣啊結果你現在最多人的影響最大啊應該對的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10457.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10476.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
委員可不可以容我再說明一下因為這地方其實是有一個司法政策的一個考量因為台灣真的進入到使用訴訟的那個太容易進來了那事實上我們有很多的像我們有調解各種的那個機制可以使用那所以是讓人民呢就是說他在十萬以下就是說那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10477.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10499.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
就是說這一種標的不是很大的他可以去想一想這叫什麼以價自量你應該對於如果有爛數或者是扶爛去提的人你要有一部分那個機制去解決那一部分嘛因為那部分然後去影響到多數人對不對啊邏輯是不是這樣你邏輯應該比我好啊你耳環多了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10501.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10528.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
對啊 如果是你講的那部分那應該去處理那部分啊不要影響到最多人了啦我知道今天這樣問當然因為你已經開始實施了嘛很多人來請願嘛來陳情嘛這個結果弄到後來就是有些人就打不起官司嘛對不對是不是這樣那你應該適度我說我剛剛已經跟你講一個很重要的就是那個影響最多人那個你這次調稅都調二分之一五十趴嘛那錢也不多啊從那邊去做一個適度的調整好不好如果真的是金額很高的老蔣我也沒有太大意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10530.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10551.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
現在多數人啊 多數人那一塊 你再想一下好不好所以我具體的要求 來來看一看來我具體要求第一項我們來檢討這個裁判費的收費的這個基準適度去調降一部分我本來是要整體要調的 可是我今天很明確的跟你們講你針對那個比較 比較多的一般民眾會碰到的那個那部分做一個適度的調整第二個對於弱勢跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10552.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10578.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
低收入不法 平均所得比較低的訴訟費用你給一些優惠或者提供所需要的幫忙這你本來有在做對不對有在做是不是第二點 你現在那個司法院有在做這一塊嗎就是法律明白規定的訴訟協助制度 對會做嘛 OK好來 第三你應該是先請去做一些司法改革落實司法的爭議以後再來檢討這個裁判我剛才說你要答應啦你要調高之前要先去回去做自己的自己的檢討第四個 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10580.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10587.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
你不要變成是以價去質量你應該去檢討那個 如果有些人是爛數或者他剛剛跟你講的很容易進來 你是做一部分的處理好不好要再給你30秒嗎 可以嗎這4點你給我一個比較具體的回應好不好 來現在回應嗎要給你多少時間 你要帶回去檢討嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10602.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10630.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
因為第一二項剛才已經有跟委員報告過了就是說司法院當時就是這個其實主要是高院高院的權責高院所那個調的啦那就是說當時的那些那個考量跟那個司法政策剛好跟委員報告過那委員就是有其他的那個指示的話我覺得這個部分我們是我們可以再做一些那個研議啊那至於說三四這個部分我想這是一個並行的沒錯就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10631.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10645.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我們怎麼樣去提供一個人民比較好的司法給付這個確實是我們司法行政一直就是我們應該要去做的事情這個我們也知道說我們一定必須也要更好的落實但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10647.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10667.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
台灣的那個司法資源其實不只是台灣全世界都面臨司法資源非常那個短缺那所以我們現在我必須為我們同仁說一些話就是說我們那個同仁就是過勞的那個情形不管是法官或是書記官都非常非常的那個過勞那所以呢我們也一直呼籲就是說我們的民眾當然他們有困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10669.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10690.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
國家必須提供一個司法給付這是應該的那但是也是希望說他們在使用這個的時候呢能夠真正很慎重的去那個考量那我想這個是一點那至於說那個爛數呢這個確實是我們一直就是一直有在做的那但是也許幅度我覺得還可以再更多的那個精進那也謝謝委員就是跟我們這一些指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10691.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10718.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
司法人員很辛苦啦普遍上水準也是很高啦這個你們應該有的預算我們會支持也幫你們加油所以不用客氣你們該有的要跟爭取我相信不是只有台灣民眾黨大部分的立委應該都會支持這沒有問題好不好可是老實講可是如果發生了司法院發生了像中文職這種事情臉上就無光了我知道你們也非常生氣啦我今天只有問兩個比較簡單的別的那邱宗義跟那個陳永松啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10719.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10735.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
你們除了把這個邱中義那個庭長拔掉之後你們說要開始要調查跟送評鑑對不對是這事情不能拖太久跟委員報告那個就是送法評的申請書在昨天已經送到法評會了 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10736.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10759.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
昨天送到法輪功那有進度現在全民都在盯著所以就是要快啦好不好不能夠拖延而且這個整個那個開過那個過程那個過程我覺得要不要比較對人民要是有一個比較清楚的一個說明不要不要人民現在擔心的是蓋牌啦或者不清楚啦那我們看最後最後一個Ending最近你有看到那個台灣民意基金會1月份有一個調查嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10762.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10785.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
1月份的這個調查 超過49.2的民眾對司法是沒有信心的那你講 你在說什麼呢那你講說司法是皇后的徵抄嘛現在看起來有一半的人民對司法是有有些話的問號的所以中文字這個事情最近司法院碰到一些問題加快 加速 給人民一個清楚的交代 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10790.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10815.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
謝謝,那下一位我們請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員,鄭正前委員接下來我們請林岳勤委員發言好,那就麻煩一個月內,好謝謝,那我們請林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10826.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10841.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
主席麻煩我們的法務部部長跟我們的矯正署署長部長他請假然後現在是次長好那就麻煩好次長還有署長好委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10843.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10862.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
市長好 市長早市長在去年差不多這個時間我大概也是進來這裡質詢我們少年輔導轉弦的這個議題今天我要針對法部部回覆我的書面資料來進一步跟兩位做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10867.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10879.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
這張圖我相信兩位都很了解要做好少年的輔導轉型我們需要跨部會的全面性的合作大家今天只有法務部我就只針對於我們部內跟署內的業務來討論那下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10885.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10904.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
首先我想指出我們逆境社工他的困境為什麼這麼講他說他孤立難遠難以落實他要做的工作現在我們在看接見制度實在是非常的不友善接見的方式不論是視訊或是窗口都無異於 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10905.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10920.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
第一線社工他在協談跟家庭的一個修復工作所以想問署長現在這四個矯正學校是否有規劃可以進行家庭工作的一個友善場域 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10923.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10947.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
因為我們四所矯正學校依照那個108課綱跟以往在還沒成立矯正學校的時候不太一樣所以他白天或許要有一些安排如果說有相關的社工可能要事先約定一些時間至於這個接見的場所我想我們四所矯正學校會盡量來配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10949.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10972.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
可是你看 隔著這樣子的話 連人都不見得碰得到可以互動的話 坦白講不是一種好方式我記得在2021年 那個兒權公約第二次國家報告 國際委員來審查的時候他主席Duke就講過說 一定要有一些友善的環境來能夠讓他才可以回歸到家庭去 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10973.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10987.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
然後呢回歸社會去否則的話這樣的方式根本都甚至韓國都有一些住宿讓家裡在住宿跟孩子相處我們都還達不到這樣可是這樣子一個會面都沒有辦法讓他跟親人有一些互動所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10990.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11018.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
像這樣的我認為是不是請署長這邊是不是提供給我目前的場域跟你的制度規劃針對這一題跟委員報告我們一般接見跟社工的接見會不太一樣一般的接見是少年的家屬來接見但是社工他可能有因為有公務關係我們會另外安排可是現在民間本來就有在做逆境少年的這樣服務他們是會陪同家庭進去我講的是這一塊所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11019.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11038.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
否則如果署長這邊的話就把這兩套方式你們都提供出來因為我們現在衛福部有在做逆境少年的這樣的一個服務裡邊事實上是社工會陪同家庭去可是一樣不能接觸到人的話基本上無助於我覺得未來要歸附到社會我們會後提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11039.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11063.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
好 再麻煩我們的署長另外 我諮詢第一線社工 他們跟我反映矯正學校常常拒絕提供在校的輔導記錄那就要問 次長跟署長這邊 欠缺完整的資訊以後如何有效去協助少年出校的準備因為上次我就講過 去年我就提過最好不是資料轉嫌 要關係轉嫌 要讓他們有接觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11065.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11089.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
未來離開教職人學校的時候我覺得社工才能夠把他們接住否則藥頭比我們更容易接觸少年幫派比我們更容易接觸少年社工反而很難因為如果沒有前期的接觸關係的轉型的話事實上是有困難的所以是不是能夠去做這樣子的一個協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11091.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11117.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
就是能不能提供出資料來各位報告事實上我們在轉嫌少年要離開我們矯正學校這三個月內我們都進行相關轉嫌措施他離開我們矯正學校之後我們也要追復達到一年的時間所以這個制度上是有這當時他機制上也在運作只是說資料上要提供到什麼樣的程度以便事後的追復我們再請這個矯正學校再看看再麻煩次長為什麼我也知道就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11119.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11141.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
醫兒少全法本來68條就是規定要追蹤一年可是在追蹤一年之後通常雙失的比例就往往激增譬如說失血失業高達到95%這不是我們熱見的畢竟他如果要能夠在這社會生存的話他要就學或者就是他是去就業可是這都所以通常往往 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11142.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11154.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
會讓這個在做逆境社工的人他們就是會有難為之處可能要去考慮問題二就是想問署長矯正學校歷年來有多少霸凌事件你們有沒有統計數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11157.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11157.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
目前是沒有統計數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11187.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11205.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
拿同樣的問題去問你們業務單位所知的確矯正署回答我說沒有辦法統計竟然是因為沒有定義這個我有覺得有點讓我有點錯愕說定義不能夠因為教育部本來也有那個霸凌準則你也可以嘗試用他們的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11207.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11233.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
可是你去看監察院過去四年內他針對於你們霸凌跟不當管教糾正過至少兩次就已經有再三提及為如實通報的話違反CRC跟欠缺問題處理機制的話缺乏內部監督這都是你們的問題所以部長署長霸凌防治跟處理具體措施就像剛剛署長提的就是掃腳條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11235.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11257.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那到底何時可以完成 從2022年到現在 到現在還在收集資料 為何跟委員報告 少角校條例是在去年的3月我們部裡面已經函報行政院那至於少關所條例 這個都少年部分在今年的2月也函報行政院 在審核中 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11257.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11276.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我覺得要進述 因為已經拖了很久了那我再看問題三就是說雖然沒有正式的統計數據我相信我們很多第一線的實務工作者都跟我提到這個我們教政學校的學生普遍存在身心健康的議題我相信署長也相當清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11278.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11295.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我知道過去幾年這個議題一直重複的在各種會議當中被討論署內也說要積極強化但可是我感覺到有一些問題什麼樣的問題呢也就是想問的是你們的合作醫院是否都具備有 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11296.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11314.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
所謂的兒少精神專科醫師甚至也想問的是你們是不是在健康檢查是不是有包含身心評估跟心理衡鑑為什麼這樣問 上聯合國就有規定所有入校處遇都應該特別關注到身心議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11315.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11329.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
或是關注在身心議題所以想問一下署長現在目前的健康檢查是不是有包含身心評估跟心理衡鑒還有你的特約醫院 簽約醫院有沒有具備這個兒少精神專科醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11331.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11355.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
我們千葉醫院一般我們所知道的他一定會有精神科醫師我們也都會引進至於他的精神科醫師他要受有什麼專業訓練他的專業訓練是不是除了成年之外還有包含少年這個應該就是衛福部他們所主管那一般我們的健康檢查應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11357.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11378.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
還沒有那麼專業到那個身心評估跟心理的橫線所以醫師是沒有在做囉我剛講聯合國又特別提醒說我們所有的入校處遇都應該要特別注意到我們是有一些編制新設人員的編制包括說我們145位從今年開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11382.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11410.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那個委外城南改為A用還有我們署本部會成立一個少年的少年科增加七位新設人員增加這些新設的資源來保障少年的最佳潛意如果是這樣的話學校端到底要如何落實我們的個別化處理措施所以這也後邊也麻煩你們提供相關的資料那事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11413.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11427.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
最後大概就是想針對於充實我們的新府特教專業人力的問題我上次也問過了輔導人力的部分我肯定法務部的努力可是特教師的師生比針對這第一線的協助我認為還是有相當不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11431.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11458.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
所以現在矯正署的回覆是說參考高中以下特教班禁用辦法以1比15的目標努力不過署長你可以看到城鎮中學是1比20喔如果你說你們已經用這個1比15的目標努力那城鎮中學都還要再更加把勁喔那我想問署長既然比照一般學校的師生比那矯正學校能否依據學生狀況來聘用學生助理員 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11460.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11487.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
來努力喔 也聘主我們的特殊教育教師我們現在的平均特教師是1比15了嘛那將來我們會盡快再把這方面再來補足那可以聘學生助理員嗎欸 對不起聘學生助理員依據學生的狀況聘用學生助理比照一般學校學生助理員在研議中 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11493.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11506.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
可不可以完善接近制度然後規劃適當場所而且建立出校準備公案的合作機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11506.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11525.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
否則真的幫派跟藥頭比我們更容易接觸孩子那不利於孩子回歸到社區去所以提供我們少年跟家庭的處遇工作的具體支持第二個是不是儘速完成我們的少角條例那還有我們少年矯正學校霸凌防治跟處理的具體措施來完善我們的矯正 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11526.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11549.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
教育的制度還有我們比較期待的是強化入校的身心評估跟心理衡鑒制度不是剛剛講說你又講成人像我們現在是今天進到那邊的都是兒少所以來衝刺兒少精神專科醫療的資源還有落實個別化處遇還有盡速補齊我們的心腹特教資源的源額還有依照三級輔導體系明確化五類的專輔人員的分工機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11552.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11571.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
所以請這個兩週後是不是可以把這相關的資料回覆給我好的 我們就委員的指教我們會積極來努力辦理好 那謝謝次長跟署長 謝謝好 謝謝那下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11584.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11589.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
謝謝主席 有請我們司法院副秘書長還有我們法務部次長兩位好 今天其實召委定這個題目這個前半段有一點我看起來是有一點文不對題這個其實有一點畫錯重點啦 有一點畫錯重點啦但是我今天非常清楚啦召委的意思就是在講這個劣勢裁定說重點是整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11612.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11636.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
在我們做出裁定以後啊 那院方跟檢方中間到底發生了什麼事啊你說 類似裁定其實啊 以招委定的題目來看的話我也不知道什麼叫 什麼依據啊這個名詞其實我也沒有聽過啦 那但是呢貫文生義啊 應該是講比較簡單的一個裁定啊應該是比較簡略的一個裁定啊 你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11637.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11666.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
今天我聽了這麼多委員還有你們的答詢我有很大的一個感慨我們在三權分立底下就是說我們司法享有這麼高的一個超然還有優越甚至於一般稱的司法高權那反映在我們實務上裡面我就感受到司法體系從這個案子來看的話如果為這個案子來下一個定義的話叫司法體系封閉然後精英壟斷然後不透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11667.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11690.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
這會造成什麼樣的一個效果呢就是說你給你這麼崇高的司法威信但是人民的信任那你怎麼樣去畫上等號幾位都是法律人坐在這邊剩下幾乎都是法律人那我一個最大的一個感觸就是說你這個整個案子這個案子 鄭文智這個案子裡面讓人覺得非常詭異的一個地方就是說啊你在 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11693.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11713.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
高等法院的法官在113年11月14號做出這樣一個裁定啊那我看到你這個整個114年3月28號好像這個案 這個裁定才送出來那個副秘書長可不可以解釋一下這個到底是什麼意思這段期間到底發生了什麼事 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11714.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11744.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
發生了什麼事然後次長你應該也要跟社會對話你們到底是什麼時候收到還是你們全部都沒有收到本席的問題就很簡單法官也是人憲法保障你這個終身的一個保障司法的一個獨立問你們問題你們講說這個都是個案好像講的個案都不能問哪有這種事要看個案是怎麼樣的一個個案這個哪叫個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11745.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11760.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
法官也是人欸今天是因為說這個我們三權分立底下大家認為說我們把司法就交給你法官你來代表國家你不能亂判欸你亂判還是枉法裁判也不行欸所以這個案子我很大的一個感慨就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11761.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11776.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
我不跟你爭執什麼劣勢裁定你下了一個判決裡面一個裁判就是你不是用判決不然你就是用裁定你裁定的方式你口頭上也可以你說我在審理單裡面我來註記也可以或者說我用書面正式的書面來製作也可以問題來了你做出來以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11784.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11805.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
這是我法官的意識 不 這不是法官的意識這代表國家的意識一個人到底要不要關 一個人要交保多少一個人到底要不要用科技監控 這都不是法官的意識你代表司法 你代表國家在執法好啦 執法完以後你不是你說了算啊你說了算以後你要讓人家表達有沒有其他的意見啊那總要讓檢察官知道吧檢察官到底知不知道複密 到底有沒有通知檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11812.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11831.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
謝謝委員那個指證就是很遺憾的這個案件確實他真的就是以一個違反程序規定啊我不想知道有沒有違反程序規定那當然違反程序規定是說檢察官知不知道那檢察官知道以後兩件事情嘛第一個就宋達嘛我法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11832.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11848.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
我代表國家表達這個意思表示完以後我要讓外界周知那至少呢我就跟你說好你這個當事人你這個被告你現在這個科技監控不必了那你這個加保2000萬那可以你代表國家做出這樣的一個裁定可以可是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11849.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11866.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
你明明知道說做出來以後檢察官可以抗告的啊那檢察官抗告以後那你總是法官這個小學生也知道你法官的素養你也知道那資深法官呢你總要讓檢察官知道說他是可以抗告的你總要通知吧是用打電話的方式還是書面送達的方式早上我都沒聽到咧告訴我答案那個 次長你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11874.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11900.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
各位報告那目前台高檢察署檢查這個調查的確診兩個事實第一個第一個是10月9號檢察官的確有在延長科控的這個開庭的時候有確定的表達要要求要繼續的延長監控這第一點第二點是到目前為止檢察官沒有收到任何有關延長監控的裁定或者是宣示這兩點是確定的阿咱咱別說命啊不命 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11901.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11906.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
你會不知道這個案子就是違法嗎就是因為他是那個違私的違反那個訴訟法規定的也因此呢就是高院的自律委員會啟動那個自律那也決定把他們送那個法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11920.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11946.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
這個有點開玩笑 這個社會喔 社會實在是你說要建立好不容易這個司法的威信你們說你們很努力 法官依法來審判然後呢 我是很權威的 全部都不能給我干涉個案是啊 社會上誰敢跟你們干涉個案現在台灣已經走到這個以現在台灣 現在大家對司法的一個要求可是你們有這個威信可是做出這樣子 你不覺得荒腔走板嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11948.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11969.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
郭文貴市長你不是覺得這很奇怪嗎這個如果要惡意去評價的話就兩種狀況啊一種狀況 你是臨床酒醉的喔 忘記了喔專業都忘記了的啊 第二你就是要偷偷放人嘛 就這麼簡單嘛你叫我解讀 我完全想不出往正面去解讀耶市長不是嗎我這樣解讀有錯嗎 還是我腦袋 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11977.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12001.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
錯亂 我跟人 我的腦袋瓜不正常張偉我這樣想很合理吧你也做過檢查關的咧是不是這樣說所以我都覺得這個案子喔非常非常的一個荒唐啦所以這到底隱藏了些什麼 不知道但是我要求啦這個案子要好好去做徹查啦複密 合理吧總要回應社會的一個期待啊可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12005.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12015.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
行政調查的部分司法院一直在進行至於說有沒有涉及到其他的更高的犯罪更高的圍屍這個部分檢方也已經有啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12019.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12033 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
關關相護 我會跟你這樣講 我會覺得這樣不好外界會做這樣的一個解讀真的不好啦 真的不好另外我要來就教的就是說我們今天談到的就是科技監控這個部分 我反而會覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12034.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12055.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
我反而會覺得這個部分涉及到整個專業訓練的一個問題啦你當然科技監控來看的話我們整個訴訟程序裡面你說在進行當中你要去保全這個被告保全這個證據我們又怕過度去侵害到人生人生它自己的一個自由所以好像是又把它給降低了又有科技監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12056.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12072.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
另外呢 受刑人的部分你認為說要讓他復歸社會啦也未必要讓他出來以後又怕這個整個社會的一個安全網那所以再加這個科技的一個監控可是呢 我反而會覺得對法官 對檢察官來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12074.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12102.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
這個部分反而不是他們的在行不是他們的在行怎麼樣實務再去加強教育的訓練科技執法這個過程裡面保障他的一個對被告的一個保全或在過程裡面不要有任何損失這個部分我認為司法院也好或者說我們法務部也好這個部分應該專業的部分應該是教育訓練應該再去加強好不好那我想最後一個問題我要再來請教的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12103.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12118.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
國安的部分我有一個很大的感慨最近我們看到這幾個月共諜案幾乎成月經文每個月都在爆發年年這樣在曝光從現役的軍官 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12119.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12136.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
退役的上校一路到民間的協作者幾乎各行各業幾乎都淪陷了這些共諜案它其實不是捕風捉影這查出來了也起訴了也送到法院但是問題是說查得多判得清社會也未必看得下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12137.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12162.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
我就拿那個退役上校簽署那個投降承諾書那件來看法院最後判了七年六個月看起來是合理我覺得七年六個月大家也不會覺得輕跟重大家覺得法院判了嘛也不會太輕嘛可是呢你再去看看司法院跟法務部你們知道民間討論的是什麼嗎他們在討論的是說一個軍人偷一台這個洗衣機破十幾噸啊簽投降書的破七噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12166.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12187.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
方向到底有沒有搞錯很難去評價因為法官獨立每一個人對案情的一個掌握判斷會有所不同但是呢這個社會不是反對依法審判但是人民看到的是說法院可不可以對得起這個國家的一個風險量刑的準則我們講了很久了講了很久了你很難去我們要求說法官獨立審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12192.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12214.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
然後呢又給他指指點點可是呢我們2021年我們就講說要設立一個量刑準則委員會也送出了刑事案件妥適量刑的一個草案現在2025年了啦2025年了啦 也不快到了到底什麼時候準備要上路我看遙遙無期啦我們司法院這個地方有沒有什麼打算沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12216.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12216.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12247.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12250.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
因為在那個基礎設施那個部分我最主要就是說案件的審理依法審判我們都可以懂但問題就是說我們很怕案件到最後相關類似的國安案件到最後都是法官自己看著辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12274.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12301.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
自己愛怎麼判就怎麼判我們最糟糕的就是最怕的就是這個雖然檢察官對於整個法院的審判他可以依法來提起上訴可是常常會看到很多案件跟社會上落差太大了你像比如說我們並不是要求關案件一個人全部都要去涉案的人全部都要關一輩子但是呢如果有些案件你去看收了敵國或者收了我們一般講的都是講中國收了 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12304.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12324.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
中國那邊的錢 然後我們也去洩密然後也簽署了投降文件你說這個不叫危害國安 什麼叫危害國安那甚至於過去還有去判緩刑的國安案件如果說證據明確 那還可以去判緩刑還有犯貨態度良好的 也有去講說一時失慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12329.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12349.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
然後誤觸法典 然後用這樣的一個方式來判緩刑啊這個啊 我都會覺得莫名其妙啦我建議啊 我這樣要求好了 不只建議我們司法院 或者法務部這個地方啊可不可以整理一下這幾年類似緩刑的一個案例 國安案件的來送交我們本委員會好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12350.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12375.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
是 可以齁 合理嘛 我們再來好好的去檢視一下我們現在法院裡面 現在有沒有國安法庭有 有國安法庭了 有專庭有這個專庭了 那就案件分到誰的手上就看運氣了就變這樣子了 法官有的判重 有的判輕那對於這個部分 國安我倒覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12376.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12392.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
真的是不能是空話 量刑也不能去失衡那量刑的標準不依的話我們很怕 很怕很怕到最後 你說甲烷去抓了那麼多那判下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12393.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12412.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
那跟人民的一個對於法律的一個確信或者是期待相差那麼大你說國安法的案件你最多判到12年公安罪可以判到死刑那你情報人員協助人員協助洩密的限制的沒有加重然後退伍的還要加重像這些邏輯都錯亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12416.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12442.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我今天最語重心長要講就是說其實請司法院真的要正視這樣的一個問題國安的問題不能變成司法的一個盲區所以我要求我們司法院可以再針對於這三年就好了這三年國安案件判緩刑的這些摘要跟理由我們稍微做一個分析我們再來看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12443.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12471.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
好好的去做一個檢視才不會讓社會會覺得說這個法院的一個判決裡面是不是法官的一個恣意我這不是要干預判決我是要問我們司法體系裡面到底有沒有辦法扛得住整個國家的一個安全因為制度賦予法官獨立審判制度賦予法官享有這麼多的一個保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12472.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12472.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12521.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12536.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
好 那個我們現在先做一個會議宣告那上午的時間繼續進行製作登記發言委員訓導結束為止好 接下來我們請張家俊委員張家俊委員 張家俊委員好 下一位我們請羅志強委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12544.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12550.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
主席有請司法院王副秘書長 法務部政部長想請教我們副秘書長以及我們次長目前我們的科控載具大概有幾種 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12569.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12594.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
四種嘛對不對腳環手環還有這個手機以及這個這個那個居家讀取器啦那有關科控處分的命令大概有幾種類型科控處分在116條之二他有各種他有八款嘛他有各種排列組合去做組合包括預防逃逆嘛禁止進入禁止離開禁止騷擾接近電子報導對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12596.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12620.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
那也就像司法院的報告裡面說的採用科控的目的是在於用科技設備監控來防止逃亡嘛那來確保審理程序順利進行那我想請教一下從110年4月科控防逃新制啟用到今年3月底法院的科控件數是多少95件嘛對不對對報告上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12624.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12653.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
那檢查機關是多少123件所以兩者合計218件那今年1月我曾經向司法院所知詢問過當時就在關心這個問題那當時回函告訴我就是說這一段期間各法院使用科控的案件裡面都沒有逃逆的情形發生嘛是不是所以成效還算不錯啦都沒有逃逆的情形發生那我想請教就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12658.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12665.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
在法務部的報告裡說科技設備監控開案件數也大幅增加112年到113年從30件成長到97件 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12670.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12692.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
然後這個漲幅3.2倍今年前三個月就已經到80件所以按照這個速度來講今年渴望大幅增加看來是很多好像也很樂觀可是我想從另外一個角度來問一下法務部你知道過去這幾年每年棄保潛逃的拒保人大概有多少棄保潛逃的人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12698.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12706.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
一千多人 我要回覆過委員我把這個也是你們給我的數據啦對 一千多人110年到112年拒保件數是18,058件拒保保證金沒入件數是3,491件棄保的比例高達19.3%等於是五件就有一件棄保那棄保的那個件數 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12726.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12740.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
非常的驚人一年的話劍數就將近要一千劍這個其實是蠻恐怖的數字沒錯吧是對 蠻恐怖的數字那這數字其實高得非常可怕就是變成是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12741.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12756.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我們也變成是我們今天犯罪偵訪的犯罪偵查以及說我們今天刑事訴追的一個很大的破口那這也是為什麼我不斷在推動棄保潛逃罪立法的初衷 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12757.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12782.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
那我想請教一下之所以不採取羈押用拒保是不是就是因為司法體系認為被告沒有逃亡之餘或逃亡之餘很輕微可是現在卻顯示出司法實務有大量棄保潛逃的情形那麼等不等於我們司法機關某種程度也嚴重錯估了被告逃亡的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12783.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12787.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我請兩位都回答好了先請我們司法院的副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12788.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12816.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
那個跟委員報告齁就是在那個去年一一三年的時候呢院方就是院方自己齁發布通緝的有四千一百二十八件那但是其實這一些那個案件呢真正那個分析起來他不見得真的就是所謂的那個跑走了啦他有時候事實上是這個人他可能就是比較居無定所的所以那個短時間那個找不到我講的不是通緝啦是我講的是那個棄保潛逃這一塊啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12818.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12842.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
對 那但是所謂的那我講你承不承認 你會認不認同確實有很大的落差存在剛才我講的數據你也應該覺得很嚴重吧那可是實際上在採取所謂的不管我們講說是相關的那個我們講形式偵查的程序的手段那很重要的目的就是實現我們形式的正義嘛可是那為什麼有這麼大的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12844.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12851.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那是不是因為我們錯估了今天逃亡的可能性棄保潛逃的可能性有這個可能性嗎還是我請那個次長來回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12852.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12881.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
委員提到的是為什麼要不用羈押要選擇羈押替代處分的理由他是不是沒有這個逃亡的可能性 倒不是他用選擇這個羈押替代處分他是有羈押的原因事實但只是沒有羈押的必要性在必要性的時候他認為不需要以羈押來作為這個我懂啦 就算覺得程度沒到這個地方啦那必要性他其實是考慮一個比例原則的問題可是我告訴你喔 那我就要進到下一個問題我已經講了也不只是羈押的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12883.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12909.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
很顯然保金這件事情對所謂的防逃的效能跟效率至少看到就有一個千箭破口一年我剛剛那個比例已經講得很高可是我剛剛前面為什麼要講誇你們的科控的成效你們在進行科控的部分都發現沒有這個問題就沒有逃走的問題是不是還是你們資料給我是錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12911.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12933.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
上面講那個科控的那個狀況 只要在科控狀況之下目前為止進行科控的還沒有發生有具體逃亡的事件 進行科控的所以我就要講就是說 這個實際上現在的那個科控的以今年來說 一年來說的目前科控的大概只有97件那比起現在免軍千件的棄保潛逃 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12935.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12962.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這科控的比例似乎也是蠻低的那你是不是又變成我剛剛講的第二個層次問題你不是講羈押 羈不羈押跟隨棄保潛逃的判斷問題那科不科控呢科控的狀況比羈押手段的輕微性要低得多啦 沒錯吧那為什麼在採取所謂的相關防逃措施的過程當中科控的部分的使用的比例這麼的低 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12965.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12991.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
就檢察官的角度來看檢察官如果認為他有相關的事業檢察官原則上他是以羈押為優先最容易確保被告的未來的道庭所以他首先他會用羈押來做處理那在必要性或者比例原則的考慮之下他才會選擇用科控來處理所以案件上科控會比較少我跟你講 我跟次長說啦很顯然這些有一些系統性結構的漏洞跟盲點存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12994.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13019.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
當然我也覺得說你可以省著必要性可是事實擺在眼前就是這麼多的人逃亡不管是棄保潛逃還是用別的方式逃亡那以你們前面跟我講科控逃掉的件數是零比例是零的時候科控的所謂的手段的強制性又比羈押要低的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13020.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13048.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
那我就馬上就問一個問題最具體的案例啊中文字的案例如果採取科控的話他棄保潛逃的可能性是不是就會大幅下降是不是這個個案我們要談嗎這個抱歉我跟你講我覺得我真的是在這邊好像變成是什麼個案恐懼症還是個案的矛盾症這不是個案啦我只是講說今天這種情況之下科控的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13051.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13056.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
從這個事實面來講他在進行科控當中他事實上是沒有逃亡的從這個事實上來講他是沒有在科控的時候逃亡的 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13063.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13087.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
然後下一個就是另外一位遠東航空前董事長張剛維他有七次違反科技監控的警示行為有兩次出現在漁港附近然後他就被緊急拘提了 對不對改採羈押所以就避免了他的逃亡行為我在這邊其實都在肯定目前科控的效率 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13088.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13115.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
沒錯吧所以因此在這邊我是真的是誠摯的提醒一下不管是司法院跟法務部當然我知道也要尊重法官的裁量權啦可是法官的裁量權跟我們現在實質上犯罪這個所謂的那個防治以及所謂的實現我們刑事正義的這個需求人民的期待也不能落差這麼的大我像剛剛講是普遍的例子就跑了這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13116.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13135.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
那跑這麼多事實上就等於我們犯罪我們今天國家的刑事正義不能夠去加諸在這些所謂犯罪者身上的話那就是台灣人民就是受害者啊那更何況還有一些重大的案件最近引發了極大的爭議那甚至都有司法人員要受到追究了嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13136.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13164.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那這種情況之下我覺得法務部跟司法院真的是非常有責任來去檢視這整個系統性結構性到底對於所謂的目前我們這個犯罪逃亡不管是氣泡剪刀或其他的太陽怎麼去防止特別是科控的工具如何使用我覺得這個真的是拜託大家啦就好好的來在這一部分來去把它加強琢磨可以嗎好沒問題好那這麻煩兩位謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13169.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13183.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、傅坤祺委員、傅坤祺委員、傅坤祺委員、沈發慧委員、沈發慧委員、沈發慧委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13185.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13206.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
都沒有到那所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢 詢問結束委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或書面答覆者請相關機關請訴 縱交個別委員會及本會我先補充一個東西就是司法院還有法務部這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13209.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13232.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
我想請教一下就是因為我們星期一的時候才去看科控中心那我看完科控中心的時候我有想到一件事情但當天我並沒有提到那我想說請市長院跟法務部可以研擬一下看怎麼做就是我們在拒保的時候我們都會有拒保人那我們在像譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13237.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13250.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
財務的所有連帶保證人等等這些規定我們科控中心對被告適宜電子監控的時候我們是不是可以強制他提供緊急聯絡人 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13251.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13269.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
或者是說司法院在法官下裁定的時候可以要求被告指定一個緊急聯絡的人才不會說被告他一時聯繫不到然後我們就不知道要找誰可不可以就是做這個研擬看看能不能講因為我知道現在會 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13270.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13286.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
非強制性的會問他要不要那我們可不可以把這個當作是一個強制的規定譬如說法官在下裁定的時候就請他提交一位或兩位的緊急聯絡人那在法務部這邊也是這等於是 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13287.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13312.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
為我們的電子監控能夠再多一個多一個作為啦因為我們那天去看的狀況是電子監控設備譬如說手機等等的如果他設備沒有損壞或不是沒電那確實那個客戶中心是可以聯繫他請他用視訊的方式讓客戶中心人能夠了解他當時的狀況還有所在的位置但是如果說是因為設備的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13314.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13327.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
聯絡不上的話那至少我們要可不可以有一個緊急聯絡人或兩位緊急聯絡人我想說是不是請市長院跟法務部能夠研擬一下這個做法那天禮拜一我看完之後我的一個想法目前它是沒有調節規定但是在1.6之1等於在第二項以否所列的但是事實上是法官在下任科控的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13351.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13367.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
目前我看是可以但是並沒有一個強制的規定就剛剛複密所說的沒錯那所以我的意思是不是說能不能夠原理把這個當作是一個強制的規定就是說當事人他如果法官要對他下這個裁定我想說他 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13368.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13397.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
這一定是被告想要爭取的就是以電子監控的方式取代羈押那是不是說可以要求他必須提供緊急聯絡人我想說這是那天我看完的一個想法那再請兩位能夠回去研究一下這對人民我覺得是有很大的意義大家不想看到權貴犯罪就跑掉好 謝謝本次的會議就到此結束現在散會 謝謝大家 |