| IVOD_ID |
16581 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16581 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-10 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-10T08:32:02+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-10T12:00:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:27:58 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eadf824e3382b7a8d095600ace5e54deaf4af80a8cb003b9ba06e7373903de99a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會「公寓大廈管理條例30週年系列公聽會（一）：改善公寓大廈管理，政府應該做些什麼？」公聽會 |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:32:02 - 12:00:00 |
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105.492 |
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109.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
好多人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
155.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
155.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
這裏有個大廈 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
199.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
202.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
這裏是大廈的大廈 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
221.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
221.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
謝謝觀看 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1969.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1971.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
好大家早安我們現在開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1973.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1998.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
今天我們進行這個公寓大廈管理條例三十週年系列公聽會的第一場改善公寓大廈管理政府應該做一些什麼現行的公寓大廈的管理體制存在很多這樣的問題那麼解決之道其實需要及時廣益聽聽不同的意見那麼我們的政府機關該如何協助比如說一些疑難雜症比如說降低區分所有全員會議的一個爭議讓會議可以順利的進行有更好的素養 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1998.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2017.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
如何協助或預防經費不足的問題公共基金如何來利用如何讓財務更公開透明更具有公信力如何協助公益大廈的管理委員會因為管理委員會基本上都是由我們的住戶產生讓他們有一定的好的能耐本事可以來排解社區內的糾紛促進社區內的和諧 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2019.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2036.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那更重要的是如果透過民間團體的力量去協助我們的公益大廈管理去除錯誤 優化管理作為等等其實有非常非常多相關的議題值得大家進一步的討論我想公益大廈管理條例30週年也該到了徹底調整的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2036.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2064.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那我們都希望透過公聽會的召開聽取各位學者專家的意見並且在會議的過程中詳時記錄列入立法院公報作為公立大廈管理條例未來在修法時候的重要參考好那我們首先先介紹專家學者出席委員跟政府代表好首先是我們台灣公立大廈管理顧問協會饒樂理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2070.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2092.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
國立陽明交通大學建築研究所 柯桂聖助理教授福倫大學法律學系 黃志堅助理教授台北市不動產經營管理協會 林世俊理事長台灣物業優化經濟協會 張家榮理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2098.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2126.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
台中市物業管理協會黃振德理事長中華民國地震式工會全國聯合會林旺根榮譽理事長中華民國工業大廈管理維護商業同業工會全國聯合會高敏靜理事長台北市工業大廈管理維護商業同業工會潘瑞拼理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2130.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2157.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
以及社團法人台北市居住榮譽發展協會曾庭庭理事長政府機關的部分我們今天內政部由董建宏政務次長代表出席以及國土管理署徐彥鑫副署長我們補充介紹一下這個永信法律事務所沈巧元律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2160.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2188.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
好 那今天我們供應會的程序如下第一我們先請部會簡單的針對供應大廈管理條例的一些狀況做簡單的報告之後再請各位學者專家來發言我們依初期的簽到順序為原則每一位學者專家發言時間為8分鐘如果本院的委員要發言請到我們主席台我的本席的右手邊來做登記與兩位學者專家發言後安排一位立法委員發言每位委員發言時間5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2189.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2214.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那我們在第一輪發言完之後同意由與會的機關代表再次進行說明那也跟大家報告這個發言台的正前方的燈號是我們的倒數計時大家可以看到發言時間結束前一分鐘我們會按鈴一聲提醒發言時間結束就會按鈴兩聲請大家把握時間好現在我們就進行部會報告的部分我們請內政部董事長建宏來進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2223.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2248.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
主席各位委員各位學者專家各位女士先生大家好首先對於各位委員對於內政部公益大廈管理業務推動的關注跟指導我們表示感謝本貴委會今天召開公益大廈管理條例30週年系列公聽會第一個部分改善公益大廈管理政府應該做什麼本部應要列席報告深感榮幸那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2249.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2275.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
公益大廈管理條例呢從民國84年6月28日實施以來呢歷經了92年的修正權文94年修訂徵議條署規定以及102年因應兒童墜樓及受託人的爭議105年考量高齡住戶與公共基金的管理111年為強化公共安全等需求我們不斷地做適時的滾動的修正相關的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2275.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2292.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以在本條例實施屆三十年的過程裡面呢事實上內政部也因應以及配合大院的相關的一些意見我們因應社會的需求其實都不斷的在做一些管理跟討論那目前也著手去研議相關有關寵物以及充電裝蒸汽的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2294.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2313.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
另外根據我們目前的統計113年6月底全國共報被成立了58,117個社區管理組織為了協助公益大廈管理維護工作全國也培訓了大概11萬餘的各類管理服務人員以及成立了1000多餘家的管理維護公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2314.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2337.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
條例的本身的重點其實在整個的社區的自主還是要再一次強調公益大廈管理條例的重點是希望將整個公益大廈的管理的權責回歸到民間回歸到住戶由大家各自的自主社區的自主管理符合一方面彰顯台灣的民主精神一方面也透過社區自主的管理跟自治的精神讓相關的義務規定能夠明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2340.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2364.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那麼目前涉及住戶之間的權利除了法律已有規定之外那也以規約或者是區分所有權人的會議方式決議方式來規範那但是呢公益大廈管理常常因為住戶之間的認知不同互信程度不足導致許多的糾紛那麼即使已經有安排管理服務人員予以協助有時候能難以全面解決相關的糾紛所以還是仰賴地方政府組織公益大廈爭議條例委員會處理公益大廈爭議事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2368.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2387.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那麼稍後我們會就今日工經會所要討論的議題做一個逐步的說明首先針對政府應該如何預防或者是紓緩工業大廈所面對的經費不足的問題那麼本部認為說在條例裡面其實有規範設置公積金那麼面對重大的修繕成本的上升以及欠繳的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2389.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2408.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
讓面對重大支出的時候常常陷入經費不足的狀況的時候那麼住戶怎麼樣子增加對公共基金或提撥比例通常都會有很多的爭議或者是共識難以形成再加上建物隨時間老化所需要的修繕規模的擴大也加重了社區的負擔最終影響了居住的品質以及危及安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2408.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2431.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以在政府的管理角色上面我們除了在第18條規定啟造人繳交公共基金由地方主管機關的公庫代收之外在公益大廈成立管理組織之後必須要依法第57條的規定向地方主管機關報備由公庫代撥支付並且要求啟造人將公益大廈共用部分的設施及維護手冊以及廠商資料的移交管理組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2432.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2446.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那以利後續的工藝大廈相關的設施的生命週期的管理跟維護降低後續管理維護的成本以及修繕的費用另外藉由公立飯店員的培訓以及課程的加入那麼提升從業人員對社區設備的一些認識協助社區設備的一些管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2449.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2468.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那在公部門的部分當然我們就會透過第十條的方式來讓地方政府可以給予社區一些補助那透過這樣的方式來形塑整個更好的環境那我們也會引導整個公益大廈改善他的財務體質那麼規定我們的管理組織要定期公告公共基金的收支以及保管運用狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2469.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2492.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那對於在解職離職的管委會或者在改組過程裡面一定要把相關的資訊做完整的說明跟移交那保障利害相關人的閱覽以及相關資料閱讀的權利確保財務的透明化也讓住戶的了解完整所以我們希望透過這樣的方式資訊透明化的狀況讓大家對於整個財務的管理跟整個基金的運作都比較透明健全 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2493.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2509.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那至於怎麼樣降低區分權人的會議的那麼區分權人最常建議的就是說包括那個非召集人的召集會議的權益那社區特定人士收集會議出席資料那出席會議委託書那重新召集會議門檻降低的公平性等等的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2510.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2526.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那麼所以我們希望能夠提升那個意識的品質那降低正義所以我們首先會提升整個管理服務人員的本職學能透過這些好管理服務人員的培訓回訓的課程讓大家知道開會的程序跟整個程序的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2527.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2548.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
應有的具備的知識但同時我們也會在我們國土署的網站上面對於所有的管理自治的QA做一個明確的說明提供社區作為一個會議的參考那更重要的事情是我們已經要求地方設立公益大廈爭議事件調解委員會希望透過調解委員會的方式讓相關的爭議有一個好的處理的機制那也保障住戶的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2550.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2569.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那麼面對公寓大廈管理委員會排除社區內的糾紛呢因為公寓大廈它是採用立體式的集中式的一種居住型態所以呢住戶其實彼此之間的生活習慣價值觀點可能很多有些差異那住戶之間的糾紛就會常常有一些好發生那管委會有時候呢他站在第一線卻沒有公權力 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2570.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2593.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以我們目前相關的制止程序包括條例的第八條第三項第九條第四項第十五條第二項及第十六條第五項等我們會希望說透過這些相關法令的運作呢那麼讓整個區權會它基於社區自治的狀況呢透過規約或者是區權會所制定的管理辦法來共同遵守 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2593.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2621.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那透過這樣的一個共同遵守包括說讓這些規約能夠明確在跟地方機關機關有一些互動包括我們的那個協調會的方式那麼讓公權力有一個協助的角色所以我還是要再次強調基本上公益大廈管理條例的重點是社區自治是地方自治透過社區自治的原則那我們公權力在適時的可以輔助那透過公益大廈管理委員會協助解決社區內的糾紛事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2623.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2631.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們透過設立工藝大廈爭議事件調除委員會透過這樣的方式地方政府也扮演一定的角色協助我們的社區自治事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2632.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2655.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那麼對於政府應該如何另選相關的合作廠商呢我們在整個第四章裡面其實有規定服務人專章這個服務人專章裡面授權公益大廈服務人他們怎麼樣去找到相關的公司的資格以及受委託建物管理的範圍內容那協助公益大廈管理委員會執行該大廈的一個管理業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2656.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2672.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那怎麼樣找到合適的那個我們國土署目前已經透過證照的管理的方式相關的符合的人員以及相關的公司的資料在公布在網站上那各縣市呢也會針對這些公會以及相關的服務人員也有評選 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2672.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2692.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以評選結果也會公開所以民眾都可以透過這樣子一個公開透明的資訊網站呢去得到一些相關的資訊去另選合理而且合法而且具有管理經驗的人來參與這樣的一個管理事務同時相關的管理人員也必須要有防火避難等等的相關的技術所以這一些都可以讓我們的社區在 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2694.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2705.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
經營管理社區的時候找到最專業的人來協助整個社區進行安全上面以及各方面整個生活上面的一些相關的回顧跟自治的事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2706.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2726.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那麼典交事宜呢因為條例的第57條已經明定好那根據我們的消保法第17條也明確規定預售屋的地形化契約裡面都有針對包括機電消防各類設施等等是由賣方來負責相關的檢測所以檢測的方式就是有賣方跟管委會的管理人員雙方協議 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2728.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2731.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那麼對於起詔人在違反第57條規定的時候在第49條第8款的時候其實有罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2738.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2761.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那麼針對管委會第也對於在第18條第二項也有點交之後使得撥付公共基金的規定那麼目前在實務上可能會面臨一些在相關的檢核過程裡面有一些缺失無法有共識的時候大家如何處理所以我們會希望針對這樣子的上述的爭議我們再透過第三方的協助或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2763.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2785.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
整個地方政府相關條例的協助我們讓地方政府有一定的介入的空間協助那個買賣雙方去履行合約讓整個公社的點交可以明確化那如果確定點交的過程有瑕疵那可以得依據消保法第43條的規定向消負責服務中心或者是消保官申訴然後移民式的方式來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2787.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2808.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那麼現行的體制還有哪些問題呢當然啦我們從這個條例在84年6月28號公佈之後我剛剛也跟各位報告我們歷經了幾次的修正包括92年94年好等等的修正102年還有105年好111年等等的相關的修正這個修正的過程都是為了因應隨著整個社會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2810.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2837.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
進步跟整個居民環境的改變以及國家面臨少子化高齡化的問題我們都有不同的方式來面對來因應那我們也希望在整個配合國家淨零減碳以及大家在少子化議題之後那麼對於寵物的鑽養的需求我們也希望能夠透過一些由下而上的方式包括像今天非常感謝委員會能夠召開這樣的公聽會匯集所有專家學者的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2838.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2849.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
透過大院的指導共同來討論怎麼樣子可以有一個更好的方式將我們的相關的法令以及民間所需求的方式我們將條例裡面做一個完整的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2849.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2870.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那麼怎麼樣是透過民間的力量協助公益大廈去去除錯誤或者是一個優化的管理這個部分其實真的要再一次感謝立法院大院願意做這樣的公聽會畢竟公務人力有限我們整個的培訓其實是我要再一次強調公益大廈管理條例從一開始的制定就是為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2871.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2896.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
強化我們的市民社會強化民間的自主管理能力讓公益大廈回歸到住戶本身透過自治的方式的精神然後來管理我們自己的事務所以我們未來會將加強整個法令的宣導以及管理服務人員的培訓及回訓那麼另選優良的管理大廈組織以及管理服務人員透過這樣的方式以及跟民間團體的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2897.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2904.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
讓整個訓練的過程還有相關的資訊能夠更加透明化然後訓練能夠更加精實服務能夠更加服務到位 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2905.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2927.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
最後要再一次感謝趙偉以及各位委員還有學者專家民間團體對於內政部公益大廈管理業務的推動的相關的關注以及指導那麼條例的重點其實就在提升公益大廈的居住品質也希望透過這樣子一個條例的運作呢除了健全相關的管理制度之外更重要的是健全社區的自治來達到共同的利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2927.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2950.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那我想台灣是一個民主社會民主社會的重點還是在於說權利回歸於人民由我們的市民共同來決定我們的生活居住環境的空間應該如何管理所以我們再一次感謝大院的指導以及各位學者專家提供的專業的意見我們相信在未來透過大家的意見的共同的整合我們能夠提出更好更棒的版本謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2953.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2970.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
好謝謝我們董事長清楚的說明那麼其他單位的報告我們就請大家自行參閱我們會刊登在立法院的公報那麼接下來我們請學者專家來進行發言我們按出席簽到的順序第一位請台北市不動產經營管理協會林士俊理事長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2981.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3010.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
主席 各位委員 議會的場觀寫的專家 早上好今天非常高興為什麼今天特別早來然後登記第一位那我想我針對我們討論提綱有七項我分別來跟大家說明那第一項如果協助藝房跟書房公寓大廈面對經費不足的困境我這邊提出四個建議第一個建議是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3012.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3040.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
公共基金與公設典交要脫鉤 為什麼?因為公設典交是民事的事情公共基金的錢是誰交的?不是企造人給的是我們消費者買房子的時候支付在房價裡面所以這個應該要脫鉤的原因是這個因為我們貶協會 台北市不動產經營管理協會我們做很多的公益執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3041.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3064.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
每個禮拜多在做公益資金花姐很多社區成立以後一直在工作典交聚分跟起造年之間打官司打七班都被罷結還有行之十幾年的所以這部分我建議要脫鍋為什麼這個錢是來自於消費者繳的錢不是起造年無產給的就是我的論點那第二點是 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3066.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3082.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我們現在社區會面臨到公共基金不足的問題為什麼是因為我們提撥的錢是用工程造價這工程造價事實上是我們重建成本的營建成本裡面不到百分之三分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3083.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3094.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那應該要用重建成本為基底來計算公共基金那這樣的話包括以後的外廠更新 種種的費用就比較充裕 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3097.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3122.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那另外一點是在我們的歸約的一個範本裡面我建議要有印登記跟不得登記的但是印登記跟不得登記完了以後就要修歸約範本但是印登記跟不印登記了以後也要實時檢查為什麼要實時檢查很簡單因為我最近也看到很多來過公益知情的這些的消費者 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3124.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3143.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
他拿到的藝術合一裡面就發覺齊兆齡不應該登錄的東西太登錄了比如說他跟你講說你這個大廳的奧工到以後官員會自己申請室內裝修 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3145.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3172.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
另外他還登錄了很多霸凌條款所以事實上假如包括藝術都有規範但是包括我們的規範表都有規範但是沒有實時審查就會發生這個翻牆左板而且每個建築物都是獨特性的不可能每個建築物可以抄來抄去所以這部分的規範表企造人一定要委託建築師去好好的做為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3173.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3187.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
因為建築師是所有的建築裡面對建築的資訊掌握最充分的人消費者是對建築資訊是完全陌生的這個部分就產生資訊不對稱資訊不對稱就會產生消費者會被霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3191.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3216.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那爲什麽現在只會產生很多無理的抗拒或是反應都是因爲他來自什麽?因爲知性不對稱這是在第一條部分那第二個部分就是如果降低公益大廈七分十二前會議的爭議我這邊是我這邊的建議就是修幾個法條但是法條內容我比較練我只練第一個是比如修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3218.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3244.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
條例的第30條 內容請參加我的這個書面資料還有修我們31條這是在第二部分 七分十二前的部分那我們在如何協助工業大廈管理委員排除社區的糾紛我這邊建議修法條總共有有五條第一條是修第八條外牆部分那 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3245.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3266.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
第二條是新增八之一就是為外牆修正的部分這邊我們有這個建議如果書面資料那第三就是修正第三十七條那第四個是新增三十七條之一那第五個是修正三十八條這如果書面資料那如果協助工業大廈臨險合作廠商這問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3270.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3281.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
為什麼臨險廠商會很不好臨險原因在哪裡因為每一個的建築是獨特性的所以假如在所有的歸因裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3282.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3301.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
沒有把它寫清楚 我們社區的歸A換遍的時候在歸A審查的時候 做沒把錢清除 我們可以用其他的作業管理辦法譬如說 我們的請採購 驗收 付款 保庫管理辦法這個都是作業 都是在社區歸A裡面 換遍並沒有規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3304.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3317.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這個部分都要把它納入規定為什麼因為每個建築物很特別我的外牆貼瓷磚跟貼石材或是用粉刷 油漆粉刷完全不一樣的更新會用 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3318.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3343.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
所以這部分是誰的責任呢是企造人的責任那企造人不能把這個東西以後銷售完了甩鍋給我們全民所售所以這部分應該在這部分就好好的要做一些書面上的作業管理辦法因為我想列政部應該有很大的決心要做這次的沒有的話我們看到市長外強脫落砸死人怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3345.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3365.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
要國賠還是要怎麼辦那我們外牆這個防護板一架上去就沒有卸下的機會台北市台灣的建築物是多麼難看的台北台灣並沒有錢並不是沒有錢的國家是有錢的國家怎麼會建築物變成這麼醜陋是我們要去思考的問題所以我們應該要從新的 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3370.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3389.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
建造申請的時候就要嚴格的去執行這個工作不能在留祖孫在留我們所有前面的所有消費者這個應該要進行的那第五項是公益大廈要辦理供售典交事宜那這部分我有三個建議第一個是供售典交部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3394.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3412.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
應該要委託專門的第三機構沒有的話現在的公社典交我也擔任過很多的委員的一個國安會聘請的部分好我最後要講的比較重要是我希望我們的民間住宅要依照社會住宅的 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3412.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3427.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
的審查社會住宅所有的從規劃設計到興建到營運他都有一套的審查而且他是有降低所有的營運費用降低所有的總成本那請議會的來賓參與我的書面報告謝謝謝謝大家好謝謝我們林士鈞理事長下一位我們請台北市居住榮譽發展協會曾庭庭理事長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3451.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3475.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
主席各位委員那各位與會的人員大家好我是台北市居住容易發展協會理事長曾婷婷那今天很榮幸的那個接受那個大會的邀請來到這邊那針對這些問題第一個就是政府應該如何預防那個公寓大廈舒緩他的經費不足的問題因為我們目前都是跑比較老舊的社區社區其實的官會的組成他們其實並不 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3476.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3498.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
因為社區管轄的組成他們其實並不清楚管理費和公共基金的區別所以大家都把公共基金當作是管理費在收取所以其實他們沒有提出公共基金的那種就是習慣或者是依循的方式所以我們認為說應該在條例上面修正管理費的字眼把管理費和公共基金分開 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3500.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3519.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
然後再來就是我覺得應該政府應該要做一個那種讓人民可以依循的方式例如說我們可以請估價師來去估這個房子的耐用年限依照他的年限樓層面積然後依照50年後的那個本利倒算的比例計算每個月應該負擔的金額可以在以後一定的年限再增加繳費的金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3521.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3541.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這樣子在未來的修繕上面人民會有有所的依據就像在日本一樣啊他的那個建屋年限越高他每個月所要需要支付的公共基金就會越高這樣子在一定的年限然後人民需要支付更多的費用的情況之下這樣子他們才會有考慮到說他們是不是要修繕要重建這樣的話才不會弱造成人民的生活品質降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3545.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3569.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那至於目前經費不足的問題我覺得應該要請金管會可以修法讓他可能就是讓銀行可以借貸給管理委員會就是修繕的基金因為目前其實管委會其實就是想要做一些修繕但是問題是人民如果假設他的住戶不願意付錢的情況之下他們其實是非常的困難的所以我覺得應該可以說區選會過了之後然後呢你就可以借錢給 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3570.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3582.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那個銀行就是可以借貸給那個官委會讓他做修繕那人民可以他可以在那個所有權人上面做註記然後假設那個未來他賣房子的時候那個人那個新的承接者他該掛承受 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3586.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3611.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
然後至於那個區分所有權會議的爭議啊其實法條上面雖然寫得很清楚啦但是因為早期有很多的歷史共業啊譬如說一樓的住戶我是不是管理費要掃腳然後因為我沒有坐電梯或是頂樓你住的時候是不是漏水的時候我不要去支付雖然說法條上面都很清楚可是管委會也是去勸人啊也是住戶啊其實他們要再執行的時候他們其實是非常的困難的 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3612.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3639.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所以我們希望說在有爭議的時候其實我們可以比照自主更新會一樣就是政府方面他可以派員到現場來做指導譬如說假設我們當有去當管委會有重大的決議的時候是不是說可以委請譬如說有一些協會的專家學者然後到現場去指導告訴民眾說什麼是對的什麼是錯的對啊我覺得在有專家學者在現場的時候其實我覺得就不會有這麼多無理的那種就是抗爭這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3649.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3654.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那至於那個公寓大廈政府應該如何排解那個公寓大廈管理委員會的內部的糾紛 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3658.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3683.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我覺得這四條有一個共同的那個就是管理負責人或管理委員會予以制止就是說當不管你也許有什麼堆放雜物啊什麼之類的時候那反正第一線就是要求官委會去制止他那我假設監管處接到民眾的檢舉的時候他也是會用這條去告訴那個檢舉的民眾說OK我要找你們的官委會去制止他然後請官委會去就是回報給那個主管機關開罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3685.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3706.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
所以說這階條導致於很多的管委會其實它就不再申報了不再報備了對啊那這樣子的情況之下民眾就是投訴我們對我覺得主管機關應該擔起責任就是當你接到檢舉的時候你應該就是要派人去現場去勘察然後去直接去做開罰或是勸導的動作不然的話其實很多社區像那種大型社區他們其實就不再報備 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3709.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3722.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那如何政府如何協助公寓大廈遴選廠商我覺得政府在第一線的時候其實他可以就是可以提供有經驗的廠商的名單譬如說消防公安外牆檢測拉皮漏水等管線的問題那 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3724.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3749.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
他應該要每年去更新那另外的話人民他其實他人民其實就是很怕就是有什麼圖利的問題啊就是被人家講說你A錢之類的所以我覺得最好的方式就是我覺得應該有公版的評分標準就是讓我們知道說ok我們全廠商除了要價格以外還有其他的評分譬如說商譽啊做的東西啊什麼之類的就是像比照那個公務人員招標的公開招工程招標一樣做一個評分表 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3752.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3772.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
然後至於是政府應該如何協助公益大廈做公設點交事宜我覺得就是我們現在雖然有要求那個新的大樓提撥公共基金可是其實我覺得我們可以要求建商要提撥一個叫做公設點交基金因為人民在管理委員會剛成立的時候其實包括是沒有錢的然後那個公設點交其實動輒都是數十萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3774.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3788.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
對啊那其實基本上他們要去大家都不認識的狀態下要去籌措這筆錢其實是有困難的所以我覺得應該請介商就是在管委會成立的時候就提撥這個公社點交基金給管委會然後呢這樣有管委會去聘請這個專業的公社點交的機構來做專業的點交 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3791.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3808.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
但是這個連交公司常常每次都是開出數百條的缺失其實在國務會的時候其實說到這種數百條缺失的時候其實他們是非常害怕的所以我覺得最好的方式就是除了這個機構的專業協助之外我覺得最好的還是就是在協調方面如果有需要的時候還是可以委請公益課的專家練習來協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3810.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3826.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
因為常常買完房子之後那個建商不知道為什麼他就變臉了對啊本來買的之前大家是好朋友啊買後之後他就變成是仇人然後就會都會惡言相向啊就會覺得說你你你那個官員會要我的錢對啊我覺得那種都很難得去處理所以我覺得最好的方式還是請專家練習 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3829.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3858.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那公寓大廈目前的現在存在的體制我覺得就是像現在不是重要的就是大家就是修繕結構補牆外牆拉皮這樣的問題那國土署也有推出那個落成補牆的問題那像我們其實常常就遇到了就是落成補牆的時候我們這樣就去選會好不容易通過了錢也湊齊了可是其實住戶就突然就反尾說我不要不要你進來我家修繕其實我們其實住戶大概最需要就是有公權力可以介入來去調解或者是說今天可以有 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3860.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3875.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
就是可以有說假設你不願意的狀態之下當危險來臨的時候那你是不是應該有罰則之類的東西政府如何透過民間團體的力量來那個公益大廈除錯化的優化管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3876.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3906.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我覺得政府其實他可以做一個因為大家在做開會的時候其實很多老舊社區都是資本化資本化其實對很多社區來講都是很大的負擔然後計算比例什麼之類他很困難所以我覺得政府可以做一個那個物業的系統然後市長管委會可以就是進入系統之後自動自動的計算比例然後開會的會議記錄然後可以產生物質化直接上傳到公寓科直接做報備避免推薦跟浪費的油資再來就是我覺得可以做線上總幹事的諮詢提供管委會正確的解決方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3908.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3933.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
再來是我覺得應該委託一些協會或是外派人員去去一個那種多年沒有開區選會或是多年沒有報備的那個管委會去讓去協助他們去選主委讓他們做正常的運作再來是我覺得政府有很多的補助可是人民其實不會申請所以我覺得應該是委請專業的單位協助人民去申請這個管委會的各項的補助再來是我覺得應該要開設那個管理委員會的那個實務的實務班的訓練然後教導管委會的那個義務和權利謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3939.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3940.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
主席各位親愛的家人大家早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3958.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3964.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
感謝大家在百忙之中集聚一堂討論公益大廈管理條例實行30年來的制度檢討與未來的展望這不僅是一場關於建屋管理的對話更是一場相關人民生活的品質與公共安全的國家治理課題目前台灣公益大廈數量越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3990.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4011.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
且多数建筑的已迈入年龄已经超过25年以上的阶段租户组成多元社区治理需要日益复杂然而公益大厦的日常管理却处处受限首先我们来看针对许多社区市 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4012.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4028.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
依法成立了管理委員會並設有公共基金卻在對外的管理就是救老的管線還是外牆的剖落消防措施檢查等重大受傷需要實施就是無法完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4033.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4045.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
經費短缺問題也非管理不善而是結構性制度未能提供足夠的支持政府應主動設施公務大廈的專屬修繕制度的 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4048.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4056.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
補助還有提供最低貸款的搭配技術的輔導幫助社區度過老化與維修的高峰期避免建築危機租屋的安全再來管理委員的角色雖然是為租屋選出但實際運作時在機場不具公權力而陷入就是無力的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4076.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4081.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
無論是面對的違規住屋處理垃圾分裂公共等的爭議仍試圖排除就是淋漓的紛爭時常遇到的是講不聽高不成的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4093.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4098.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
讓許多願意投入社區的事務居民感到氣暖也影響居住的管理委員會的信任與參與的意願因此我們建議政府設置由地方政府主導 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4111.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4131.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
就是成立一個社區正義調出平台作為管理委員會的後盾並思考是否可以收權管理委員會一定的行政協助處理權限在特定事務上地方政府有明確分工於 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4133.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4147.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
支援的制度管理不再靠熱忱而是有制度有工具實務的支撐此外我們也觀察到的到各區所有全人的會議經常成為紛爭的溫床 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4152.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4156.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
會議通知表決方式意識記錄透明度都缺雜意識性的標準也許多紛爭並非立場不同而是程序不清溝通不良導致政府應設計一套標準化的意識流程模組並協助導入電子投票線上與系統提供出席率表決的效力 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4178.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4182.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
現代科技早已經大幅改善所以我們設計管理也是要一定的跟科技有關政府不能再觀望 討論 再討論這樣子的工具無法對我們的公益大學的落實再來關於各個合作 我們希望各個區的長期 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4204.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4219.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
習慣以最低價的標準來做唯一的準則導致就修繕的品質與服務就是沒辦法管控所以整合地方社區的保全 機電清潔等的業者評估記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4223.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4227.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
讓管理委員會參考數據做出決策同時也應提供簡明讓引導基本的企業協助社區避免資訊落差而產生紛爭另外長期就是我們疏忽的問題就是公社點機制的漏洞依法依據法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4248.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4269.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
建商應該交屋時完成碩士的驗收但時機中場是交接的草率資料也不齊全導致遺留未完成的行刑這次問題在新城屋交屋時但其後果卻未達到我們10年的租屋來的承擔建議政府會 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4272.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4277.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
第三方的專業驗證的制度並建立點交文件的登錄平台提供建商旅約透明化也保障住戶的權利最後談到制度的改喆我們希望說與我們的法條本身調整還有更應有整體性的制度設計政府應透過補助和培訓的機制輔助我們在地的 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4300.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4301.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
業務管理協會或者土地公會等專業的團體為社區輔導與支持的角色並協助進行制度的建設財務規劃與管理訓練所以讓我們的社區不是單打獨鬥 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4320.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4326.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我們在30年前的公益大廈的管理條例開啟了社區自主管理的時代但30年後我們今天必須我們要重視社區治理的結構的困難而提供資源與支撐我們期待政府能從財務 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4341.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4370.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
法律 制度 設立專業的知識層面真正與基層社區站在一起同時打造一個更具體的任性跟有效率希望我們的社區與管理委員還有我們的政府共同來去達成共識幫助我們的居民有一個更好的環境居住安全的居住 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4373.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4384.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
好謝謝我們麥玉珍委員的發言下一位我們請台灣公寓大廈管理顧問協會饒厚樂理事長發言大家早我是台灣公寓大廈管理顧問協會的理事長饒厚樂今天跟大家報告一下對於改善公寓大廈管理政府該做些什麼我們的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4402.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4430.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
那我想先做總結因為要報告內容很多怕等一下來不及要先做總結總結是什麼呢剛剛次長有提到說公寓大廈的核心就是社區自治那我們面臨的課題就是我們的人民不曉得如何自治所以要解決公寓大廈的問題其實是訓練我們的人民還有去幫忙我們的公寓大廈環境變得友善讓大家可以自治公寓大廈才有出路才有希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4431.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4437.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
三四年前我們通過供應大廈管理條例我們的法制化管理就開始了 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4438.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4467.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
可是我覺得我經歷這30年沒有看到一個典範轉移的發生我們看到有一部法律但是配套法律的觀念還有作為沒有出現所以公寓大廈因為法律背後的集體主義還有社會傳統的個人主義的對撞所以我們出現了很多的糾紛也所以說我們後來修法就修了一個我們靠一個公正客觀的第三人的介入去解決公寓大廈管理的爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4469.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4496.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
這個事情在40多年前李國鼎就已經預言了預言台灣因為缺乏群體關係倫理所以他會卡住社會的發展社會的進步那我覺得李國鼎的貢獻對大家來講是非常清楚的但是李國鼎他所提到的這一點是台灣社會所忽略的我們正在為忽略這個觀點而在付出代價我有個好朋友很多年前在電腦公司做事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4498.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4524.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
他有一天接到電話對方就跟他問說你們可不可以換電腦的置杯架他聽了就講說你這應該是銷售贈品吧我幫你轉到銷售部門去問問看好不好對方就講說 不不會是贈品它就在電腦的機器裡頭有個按鈕按一下置杯架就伸出來然後等我不用的時候我再按一下置杯架就縮進去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4525.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4555.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那他就開始摸不著頭緒這到底在講什麼東西啊在開始抓頭的時候呢旁邊的同事戳戳他說人家講的是光碟機這個就是我對於公寓大廈管理的體會我們台灣我們因為對於公寓大廈管理非常的陌生其實是很陌生的我們只好去沿用舊有的經驗去看待公寓大廈管理所以我們一直在把那個光碟機在當作置碑架在用 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4558.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4577.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這個很榮幸今天能夠跟各位公寓大廈管理的長官、前輩、專家一塊研討怎麼樣來改善公寓大廈管理那我除了希望說我們的法律能夠更加完善怎麼樣完善呢?比如說我們現行的公寓大廈管理32條它是為了要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4579.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4604.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
這個彌補我們公寓大廈的現況就是少數參與還有少數決策所以說就訂定了32條可以少數去制定我們公共事務決策但是我們前面的立法我們忽略掉幾個可能比如說它是一個少數決策所以要經過那個後續的徵求反對意見的程序可是如果說來的人很踴躍呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4605.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4624.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我們還要去踐行那個32條後面的徵求這個反對意見程序嗎那個要花時間那個要花作業的成本的所以我們只要說當這個狀況的時候我們在這個法律當中加一條就是說當你的出席的人數達到你的規約或者第31條的規定的時候適用第31條的規定問題解決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4630.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4653.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那同樣的就是說我們32條的標準不是說你做的假決議要靠過半數的區分所有權人去否定掉嗎那如果我們在這個重新召集的會議裡頭有過半數總數過半數的人還有比例做成決議他應該當場可以生效因為你既然有過半數的人同意就不可能有 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4654.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4680.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
過半數的人在反對這件事情所以這個就是我們可以讓法律變得更有效率的方式這個是就修法修法以外我希望我們今天可以了解一下公寓大廈管理的現況公寓大廈管理的現況呢就是這個我們缺乏的一些元素基本元素比如說我們現在有規約那我們的起照人要提供這個規約的草約可是問題是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4680.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4708.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我們沒有這個長期修繕計畫那我知道今天很多的前輩很多的先進會提到這個所以我就不多講那我只是去做一個比喻因為我們台灣沒有這個用規劃用估算還有事前的約定去幫忙去建構公寓大廈的穩定性所以台灣的公寓大廈管理那個狀況很像是今天我們把一群人通通叫到遊覽車上面然後開始大家討論去什麼地方玩 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4709.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4734.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
所以一個進步的概念就是當群體有人要去做事前的規劃事前的約定但是現況來講這個沒有再來我要講到我們現況是什麼東西現況是我三年前我在桃園市擔任優良公寓大廈評選的時候我那時候分配到一個新秀組新秀組大部分都是五年以內的公寓大廈很年輕很有朝氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4735.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4761.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那結果來我看了一下社區的資料跟這個主委在做溝通的時候我就問他說你們的會議記錄啊講說你們的會議因為沒有達到三分之二所以主席就宣布留會我說不對不對我看了你們的規約你們的規約是抄我們內政部的規約範本規約範本不是三分之二規約範本已經改成了過半數就可以我看你們的簽到記錄你們有過半數的人出席所以你那一天應該要開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4763.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4786.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
結果沒有人看規約沒有人在這過程裡頭去提醒主席主席主席我們過半數就可以開會所以你白白的浪費掉那場會議你浪費掉所有參與居民的時間這就是我們的現況為什麼會有這個現況我要接著去做一個分析這現況很普遍在我那一次因為我整組全部看這個問題一看的話不得了 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4788.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4805.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
來參加評選這些有自信的社區有三分之一犯一模一樣的錯誤所以我們的體制問題大了問題大在什麼地方呢我們的問題是我們的錯誤沒有辦法去解決或者沒有辦法去規避那這個我還跟這個主委開個玩笑說 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4807.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4822.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
主委主委你現在東窗事發你擔不擔心你們的規約裡頭規定說有達到那個人數的時候是要發一千塊錢的出席費現在回頭你大家來跟你要那場出席費那最後我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4824.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4843.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這個跟各位說明一下因為台灣公寓大廈管理顧問協會我們成立的目的就希望說能夠催生公寓大廈管理顧問還有推動公寓大廈管理2.0運動2.0運動呢各位可以在今天的書面資料裡頭可以做參考那我們如果把2.0運動的主張拿來去回復今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4848.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4872.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我們公聽會的提綱其實大部分的問題通通都有解決的方案所以非常希望說我們從另外一個角度去思考或許法律以外我們可以從我們的建制去著手去改良我們公寓大廈的環境去用政府的資源跟理性注入到公寓大廈管理那個公寓大廈才有出路 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4876.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4881.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
好謝謝我們饒後樂理事長的發言下一位我們請台灣物業優化經濟協會張家榮理事長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4891.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4909.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
主席各位在座的学者跟新那个先进大家早安报告人台湾物业优化经济协会张家龙理事长那今天很高兴能够参加有这个机会来参加这个公听会那如何提升与修法的公听会 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4910.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4932.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
今天針對這個七個議題我個人僅以第六項來提出個人的淺見與討論在此向各位報告與參酌有如有不足的地方再請各位委員及各位先進來來做個指導跟參考題目現行公寓大廈管理體制還存在哪些問題有何解決之道 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4934.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4957.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
這個題目我個人以四個方向來跟各位說明第一個就是協助購屋者取回法定停車位知自主權的權益本條例第58條第二項條文明確的指出建商起造人不得將法定車位讓與區分所有權人以外的特定人士設定 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4959.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4985.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
专用使用权依民法第799条第5项专有部分与其所有的共用部分及其基地之权利不得分离而转移或设定负担以上分析建商跟起造人于让让售专有部分应将专有部分其属规定的法定停车空间 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4986.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5015.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
应有一部分转移为购物者而该法停留的空间等其属区分所有权人之共有建商及起造人的条款默许下合理的将法定车位及获得专有使用权及出售与承购户此种行为为购物者经验适合已成合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5016.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5037.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
如此或行行為之違背的誠信原則已修法我們目前在社區有很多的規約上面或者說建設公司上面都會把這個納為他的利益所致所以是希望能夠在這個部分來加以做一個調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5038.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5062.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
第二个部分检讨召集人职务怠慢的因应措施区分所有权人的召集人多为具备区分所有权人的身份管理为主委员组委在召集产生职务懈怠消极不愿召开时虽有本条例的第47条不履行义务的连续处罚但 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5063.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5084.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
如召集人定願受罰而不召開事項會議在本條例並無解除該職務的規定恐造成管理事務的延宕雖可透過行政的程序彌補但勢必曠日廢時本文建議在召開 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5085.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5106.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
在有关于召集人不履行义务及限制限定时给予解除及并待卫待卫召开制度在桃园服务的一个案场那因为委员会就是因为是有这样的的的一个习性所以连续 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5107.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5124.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
六個月管理費都一直沒有辦法支給保全公司所以這個部分希望能夠重視第三個部分協助推動區分所有權的會議網路科技化這個部分剛剛有委員也有提到這個部分所以這個就請各位參閱 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5126.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5144.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
第四导入专业人从事公寓大厦的管理管理事务参考日本标准管理规约已设定有专业人士担任公寓大厦管理师的规划反观我国还停留在物业公司的包山包海的总干事的阶段 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5145.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5170.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
其缺乏法律素养与完善的教育训练在公寓大厦争议时无法提供专业的释法的措施或提供管理委员会正确的逻辑加上管理委员会亦非专业人士的组合在管理事务上面时效上面推动上面经常造成不确定的法律行为与释法异议 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5173.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5196.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
立法立法者應面對這個問題修訂偵涉證照制度及高階的管理人員如消防法第7條有關於消防管理師防災室的設施將物業管理公司的服務總幹事列定位為執行執行層面那高階管理人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5198.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5213.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
成為區區分所有權能與管理委員會召開的審查簽署機制如能有效的節省司法單位的訴訟能量且能確保公寓大廈的安定效能那 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5215.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5229.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
令全面推動物業管理人員防災式的培訓結合政府重大政策的推的執行意識導入專業人員從事公寓大廈的事務是最佳的示範 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5230.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5252.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
本協會台灣物業有優化經濟協會在下個月5月24號跟25號有在桃園舉辦的雙證照就是針對這個防災是包班上課包班上課所以我們希望能夠提升物業公寓大廈的管理是你我來共同來努力那 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5253.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5266.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
也感謝牛委員及各位的長官跟學者的重視以上的說明如有冒犯或不妥之處再請委員及在座學者老師們給予指導謝謝大家好謝謝謝謝張嘉榮理事長的發言下一位我們請中華民國地震市全聯會榮譽理事長林旺根先生發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5287.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5306.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
主席還有董正志還有各位委員還有各位先進大家早那今天很開心能夠參加這個公寓法30週年的這個這個公聽會我在立法的草案的時候就參加過討論到現在那這個是一個蠻不錯的一個一個經驗那我們這個立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5313.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5326.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
都是災難式的發生的時候產生的一些促進這個修法我覺得這個部分部裡面應該要針對現在剛剛理事長提的這幾個問題應該通盤的再去做一些檢討那這個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5333.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5347.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
當初在立法的時候就董正次有提到在當初黃南淵的署長時代發生威爾康那個時候就認為我們公益法應該朝向自治 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5348.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5369.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
自治的這樣子的一個方向那法要入家門的時候應該要有他的一些所謂的公共利益或者是權力利益的共同利益的違反的時候才能夠去介入這個是我覺得到現在那麼各國其實還是遵循這樣子的一個立法的趨勢這個是我們應該要做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5372.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5394.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
那這裡面希望說尊重自治然後讓他能夠運作才是今天的核心的議題那我們在這個最近的修法裡面是要強制入成立管委會但是我看了台北市的這個首善之區的成就也不是那麼的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5396.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5416.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
到去年的時候才只有應該我我減算是應該是76.47才是正確的所以所以這個顯見我們現在公寓大家的管理是有一些問題那麼今天的今天公聽會的主題是說政府能夠做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5416.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5430.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那我就從這個角度去看確實我們政府要做的還是增多但是能量還是有限這個部分也請我們公益大廈管理服務的專業者也要體諒 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5432.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5446.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那再來要內部的那個部分我覺得很重要的就是要建立一個所謂的財務正確的觀念這個財務正確的觀念我們在立法上面有公共基金跟管理委付經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5447.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5470.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
但是我們立法在18條裡面他起照人要提撥一定比例的供給一定一年內管理維護事項的這件事情其實是讓這個公共基金跟管理費錯亂剛剛理事長有很多提到有很多誤以為公共基金就是管理費 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5471.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5491.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
但是我們要看公共基金其實是在說人家說台灣一百塊要用的不是要親自的所以在這種狀況之下我覺得政府可以做的就應該趕快把它修法把這件事情把它釐清在2013年的這個修法的草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5492.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5520.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那麼已經有做這樣子的一個修正但是很遺憾那個時候的立法院沒有去完成這個修法那再來就是政府可以做什麼我覺得政府現在的籌碼應該把它整合有包括重大修繕耐震補強都更整建維護等等這些其實都是對老舊的建築物的那個部分那現在我們面臨雙老的時候尤其剛剛有幾位理事長提到我們應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5522.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5541.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
日本的機制很多國外的德國或者是法國其實他都有所謂的長期修繕維護的制度然後立這個把這個部分入法在建築法在本條例然後在規約裡面那麼建立這些機制然後將來在這個鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5545.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5569.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
新建的這個部分叫強制那舊的那個部分應該要用鼓勵補助的方式來做那區權會的運作的那個部分有我幾個問題內部的現在我們的區權會的決議在31條32條都是混搭的那我們早期的有重大修繕 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5570.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5595.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
重大的決議事項的時候應該要特別決那現在我們這個部分混在一起難怪剛剛有的包括老理事長有提到這個運作上面應該要再做一些釐清所以我覺得這個部分在2013年的那個修法的草案應該把它回復至少至少應該在在這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5599.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5604.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
至少應該要回到那個回到2013年修法之前的那個特別決議區權會的決議裡面還有一個部分就是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5627.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5654.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
召集人的問題召集人在各國都是在管理者去做召集那我們現在是另創一個召集人的這個制度其實是一個很錯誤的一個做法那我還是強力建議應該回到管理者然後那個管理者我們是借其就當然上司那個委員的資格那個部分也是不對應該允許他有所謂的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5656.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5679.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
過度守看守的這個責任那再來就是怎麼樣讓這個鼓勵現有的業者的這個部分我認為現有的制度管理維護人員現在訓練那麼多而且專業的公司那麼多但是我們允許管理委員會去聘僱管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5680.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5698.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
樓管人員這個部分產生所謂的反淘汰的這個現象其實這個都不太對那再來就是這個這個點交的那個問題點交我們現在面臨的一些厭惡的公司沒有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5700.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5717.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
法律的規範良又不齊的這種狀況其實應該跟搭配剛剛講我們應該從這個管理樓管人員裡面的專業者去把他訓練然後提供一定的標準作業程序然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5718.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5744.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
訂定相關的資格條件這個我覺得是目前蠻迫切的那另外法律制度上面那這個修法的內容各位可以參考這個現有的這個部分的機制因為現在有一些管委會要接管有一些不是管委會要接管這個部分是制度上有一些缺漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5746.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5772.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
另外我在最後一點時間要跟大會建議因為三年多前我接受內政部的委託去做這個預售屋交易的糾紛慣需停車空間的研究裡面我們也提出來很多的這個建議包括建築技術規則的修正包括這個公寓法裡面的56條的修正這些修正的內容那麼將來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5775.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5777.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
部裡面審慎評估進行立法 謝謝好 謝謝我們劉漢根理事長下一位我們請沈巧元律師發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5808.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5820.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
主席主席各位委員各位專家學者各位在場先進那這邊先跟大家問好那我今天來做一個簡單的報告那首先 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5827.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5841.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
其實剛才這個主管機關這邊其實有提到一個重點公益大家關於條例立法精神中首要的其實就是尊重各個社區司法自治這是一個基本的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5842.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5864.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
也就是說呢基於各個社區啦或者我們稱之為他是一個聚落或是一個群體他在不同的地域文化環境或歷史上一些原油跟雞他已經形成不同的內部的社區的社區文化的時候國家公權力在尊重這些文化下面的情況下綜合考量資源的合理公平分配下那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5865.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5877.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
在是不是應該要在何種情況下那要給予一個一定程度的一個介入那這是我們這次好像這次的公聽會的一個主題那事實上就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5878.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5903.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
每個社區因為他自己有自己基本有自己型數的文化從管理委員的選任到管理委員自己對於社區治理其實都是一種微型的民主政治的一種體現跟演練那民主政治那就難免一定會有衝突那衝突發生的時候那就是會有我們剛才我們這邊議題上面提到的一些爭議出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5904.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5931.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那給予社區自己彼此透過一個民主的方式來磨合跟試措累積這種少數服從多數民主經驗的機會其實是有一定的必要性那剛才萬千萬也有報告全台灣目前是登記是有五萬多個社區那我自己本身是在比較熟悉是新北市新北市在去年還是前年就已經突破一萬個社區了 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5932.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5954.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那其實大部分社區的運作算是穩定那每個健全社區其實住戶本身來講都是有他自己的專長來提供為社區服務然後自己運作管理自己社區那有增值的社區當然是有那甚至有很多訴訟都是有存在的那這個東西畢竟可能還是相對來講是一個少數 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5956.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5963.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那當然如果一個社區的衝突已經到了一個極大化溝通可能性都已經被斷絕的時候那這個或者是說齊全仁帶多退縮他不願意參與社區的自治民主的這個情況政府應該如何活化跟改善這種陷入困境的社區那這個是就是政府需要可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5981.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6007.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
有要介入切入來協助的一個切入點那也是十分感謝能夠召開本次的公聽會然後正視這個議題但是從法律面的角度來看凡是涉及公益大廈問題除了前述我們剛剛講的司法自治這個精神本質之外最主要一點就是一般住戶是不傾向用訴訟的方式來解決紛爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6009.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6025.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那一方面是因為涉及重人之事那一階段大家不會想要用強硬的訴訟來解決而且一旦那如果是社區彼此之間的訴訟的話進入訴訟之後跟一般的訴訟不一樣的地方在於訴訟結束之後大家還是住在一起你還是住在我對面這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6027.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6041.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
所以說大家還是對於供應大廈的涉及供應大廈的議題一般來講都是會建議應該是要儘量朝輸送外的紛爭解決方式來處理那不論是調解或是調處稍後會一些說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6046.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6066.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
公益大廈的部分來講因為他司法自治跟他的一些這種特性我們實在是不太可能說在完全適用民法上面的一些規定或者公益大管理條例一些規定一板一眼的來依法行事反而會更加的圓滿在以上這些前提下我就這本次這個幾個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6069.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6095.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
簡單的發言那首先第一個議題就是所謂公立大廈經費不足困境那一般來講管理經費的來源一般就是實務上當然就是建商他在興建的時候一定會提撥一筆基金給工大科那公設點交之後就會取回那另一個管道就是建商他預收的這個管理費那在管理會成立之後移交給社區就會有一定的一開始的社區就會有一定的啟動費 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6096.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6114.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那前者的話涉及到我們議題五公設典交了那我們稍後再說那前者後者的部分就是所謂這預收管理費的交付其實也是會遇到這個移交款項你要如何去精算他的收支是不是正確的問題也是跟公設典交其實是綁在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6116.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6143.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
所以說這個部分在公共點價部分再來討論那至於關於公共基金的這個收取應用其實我們實務上市會都會建議說要善用物業管理公司他們會一些有職的物業管理公司都會提供就是所謂說社區的預算的收支的一些預估跟編列那用這種方式然後來形成一個社區的一個名義然後看說你是要挑戰管理費 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6143.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6169.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
或者是說那就是說要讓大家知道說社區有什麼樣的開銷那這個東西可以考慮的管道政府這邊能夠提供協助社區東西其實就是一定的法治教育就是說讓新社區成立一個新社區的官委會他能夠理解到社區剛才其實剛剛結惠有提到就是理解一個社區他的生命走起來長久下來將來可能會有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6170.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6185.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
一樣的花費那相機來講就是電梯大概十年左右七八年就要換了那漏水台灣因為地震帶關係二三十年一定會漏水了那還有就是一些外觀拉皮這都是高額的花費你如果不先預先存錢那將來都會出現問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6187.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6211.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那這些東西又不是每個社區的人都會了解有這樣子的問題意識那你這東西透過一些法治教育或一些宣導其實是可以讓大家產生這樣的幽幻意識然後去做然後再去行訴去向郵管委會這邊去推廣給全體的社區住戶拉了解到這個他的必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6212.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6230.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那至於這個議題234的部分來講其實都是我們律師在擔任社區的法律顧問或處理社區的法律問題的時候常會見遇到的糾紛區大的決議是無效或撤銷管理委員會的決議的撤銷或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6232.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6254.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
或者是說那間管理上面的一個適不適當那我們先講以最最最最接近司法就跟廠商合作這個東西基本上來講的話我是建議這邊是初步直接直接跳結論就是說其實可以比照類似像說公約販本的方式因為如果你今天有一個法律顧問的話基本上我們會協助社區制定說是超管辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6255.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6274.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
招標辦法或是招標續資契約的擬定但是很多社區其實沒有這個預算跟能力或問題意識要提早顧問但是這機關還是可以擬定這種類似的子辦法的這種範本來協助社區那至於這個區大安社區管理部分來講其實已經有現在有很多的生意調出的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6275.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6297.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
的機制 法律上也有說各縣市已經有要成立自己的公益大家調處委員會新北市有所謂的總指教師提供人民來免費諮詢只是調處委員會的機制目前好像只有六都市比較有在運作其實其他是沒有的這部分來講其實是應該是建議是政府應該要善用活化這方面的機制這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6298.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6308.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那現在就結束了還是可以繼續講下再繼續講下我繼續講下那最後一個在這第下一個就是有關公社典交的部分來講公社典交部分其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6309.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6333.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
條例57條裡面主要講到就是所謂的俗稱四大管線點交但是其實對住戶而言他其實他不太懂這東西是什麼他更重視的是建商你給我的承諾包括廣告不實或各種的買賣瑕疵或是營造上瑕疵政府現在在推行所謂的安全專案就是要區分兩者讓你條例趕快點交點交完之後我把錢撥給你那你至於你民間的各種瑕疵請你用訴訟機跟建商解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6334.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6349.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
可是這其實是違反了一般人民的人性因為人民跟建商談判都希望一起打包因為沒有人想要訴訟他不用這個公社點交東西來跟建商一起協商來解決是沒有辦法來處理的所以說 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6350.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6376.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
通常都會希望談判桌上一次把它解決那公司的典交部分專業第三人檢驗其實是可以協助人民管會知道這些建商提供的這些消防管線到底有沒有違法的違反法令因為這個執法令是非常繁複跟詳細一般人不會理解可是這種東西這種第三人的檢驗場上最多就是發現錯誤你仍然是要有一個談判的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6377.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6400.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
談判籌碼若建商不買單你也是沒有用現在的現行的公民大會管理法條例裡面其實根本沒有給予人民一個談判的籌碼可以去跟建商來談雖然說條例49條有說若是你建商不點交的時候我可以處罰你可是實際上裁罰的機率是非常非常非常少何況建商其實很容易講說我有機器在改善啊是你們自己不願意跟我去點交那 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6400.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6426.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
其實人民沒有一個談判籌碼的時候到最後都是可能說都是被迫去接受建商的一個點交然後事後發生問題的時候然後就就沒有辦法來解決問題那所以說這部分來講以公社點交部分來講是希望能夠有機會考量有一定的修法然後讓人民有一定的方向可以有一定的談判的一個比較公平的方式公平程度來跟建商做協商那 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6427.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6452.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
就做個簡單直接跳結論了那個就是說我是先建議我們還是要加強對於一般管委會管委會的教育跟宣導善用現行已經有存在的制度跟資源然後在以及在爭議衝突計劃的時候能夠適當給予一些專業的資源讓管委會可以使用那以上報告再請各位先進主管好那給指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6455.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6457.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
主席主席好各位先進然後各位理事長委員等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6481.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6502.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
其實公寓大廈的研究本身是後進但是也是有緣起因為這邊蠻多的部會跟地方政府其實我都有交流過原因是因為其實我本身也是A7合宜宅的主任委員第一屆主任委員然後那個時候就跟所謂的營建署 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6503.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6531.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
有一些交流過然後也在桃園市公寓拉下坑或者是說我在協助的時候不管是新北的社區或是甚至有新竹的社區有一些公文有一些文也是我擬的所以其實也是跑過點焦大概就是說社區的制度建立真的很辛苦就於管理委員而言本身就很累而且風險很大我先講一下我有七份不起訴署分數 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6536.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6556.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
這個也是起源有很多制度上導致不信任我今天大概就分享一些東西我先講結論好了其實我們我們是學者就會講一些學理但是我因為本身有食物的經驗我們社區是破千戶的社區我先講其實我們在看的時候是第一個社區 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6558.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6581.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
這個社區的這個社群到底是哪些人哪些是在團體內哪些是在團體外我們從公寓大家管理條例當然是現階段學者大部分穩定的見解會說是區權人團體也就是說以區權人為組成但是區權人的時候哪一些真的是真的實質區權人我舉一個例子建商請問保留戶而言建商是不是區權人 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6586.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6591.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
但是從跳出整體社區利益的話他事實上是買賣的相對人買賣的相對人這邊的權力分配本身是有點問題的然後另外一部分我們居全團體有時候是太廣因為沒有考慮到建商的特別的地位有一些是太窄 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6607.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6622.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
太宰是說在整個社區自治的團體裡面其實有一些不是區全能但是他有很大的利害關係例如說我們現在講說區分所有全能會議基本上由區分所有全能所組成但是請問一下獨立車位的產權人 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6627.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6655.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
或者是租戶咧我這樣講為什麼說租戶因為其實現在我們從這個住宅從所謂的自住變成投資其實蠻多社區基本上區學仁是不住在那的但是整個區分所有學仁會議的整個程序包含提案等等其實因為法規並沒有規範所以就變成說住戶有些權益他所謂的正當法律程序程序上的權益事實上被忽略了 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6657.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6679.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
然後最後遊戲規則可能透過區全人就這樣子決議然後產生很大的什麼紛爭很大的紛爭當然我們公益當下管理條例就有一些特別的狀況是有賦予住戶一個所謂程序參加權但它不是一個它不是一個廣泛的規範所以這也是為什麼會吵架像我最近在幫忙處理就是不給店面丟垃圾不給店面丟垃圾然後連非切入心理法都拿出來用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6687.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6714.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
甚至有人說這樣官員會收就違法會被罰在區權會上面住戶那個陳住戶要出去講話不好意思你不是區權人所以這個團體我們要先界定哪些是我們人是社區的團體這要先界定這是第一個部分第二個法規部分我要分清楚說哪一些可以做哪些不能做或是哪一些可以很快做 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6715.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6738.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我們在講法規有所謂的法律跟法規命令其實法規命令會比較快法規會比較慢那這樣子我就大概講一下說有幾個地方事實上我建議說可以主管機關可能可以參考一下我們先想一下在整個公寓大廈裡面除了管委會以外還有很多協力者例如說一開始點交的時候是誰第三方 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6739.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6761.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
但是本人在幫忙社區在審一些契約的時候第三方事實上我們的主管機關對他的規範是連定型化契約條款的範本或者是因記載不得記載事項事實上都沒規範的我舉個例子新竹那個case新竹那個case後來去找第三方驗證其實我有審過那個約 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6765.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6775.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
基本上像因為新竹之前發生過大火防火填塞的問題不好意思在他契約裡面這是不列入檢查事項這麼重要這非常重要啊我就提醒主委說主委你這個要修一下要不要另外加錢那一回事但是你要記得要查 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6786.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6811.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
所以有些這個地方協助的人變主管機關這部分就是沒有做一定的協助的話對消費者事實上是沒有專業能力這是很不利的這也是無法達到所謂的第三方的功能第二個常出現就是物業跟保全物業跟保全也是一樣的狀況事實上是有範本為什麼很多社區跟物業保全會吵架吵弄羞 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6812.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6827.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
其實那個範本上面有一些規範事實上是可以去做調整而且也沒有所謂的因記載跟不得記載事項所以我其實查過有些物業他把那個範本對他不利都拿掉保全也是一樣那個也是對他不利都拿掉而且還有放天價違約金 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6837.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6844.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
天價違約金所以這個事實上是幫忙管委會變成說製造麻煩的人而不是什麼而不是協助的人我當然不是說這邊有理事長我當然不是說你們啦我是說部分的狀況因為我畢竟在處理的時候有看到然後還有像保全也是有他的困難要協助但是對於社區而言最大的問題是有些罰則啦我這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6867.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6874.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
例如說對於社區最害怕的是我不知道誰來當我的保全白話文 獻金班喔這個有LINE的群組啊我自己也看過欸我那個保全因為現在缺人嘛現在缺人嘛有LINE的群組欸誰要來獻金因為有些人是那個會被強制執行他不敢不敢掛在保全底下啊這個這個這是根本都沒有在規範的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6897.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6922.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
對社區委員很害怕的啊為什麼會吵架因為我管理委員我發現奇怪這些人不是你當初工資給我的OK好然後最後的部分就大概是講說有關於像公下法則細則也可以做像最大的問題例如說像財報吵架為什麼其實事實上是沒有A錢但是每屆委員對於會計科目認定不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6924.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6936.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那個大部分是用公司法那一套齁那個所謂的會計所謂商業會計法那一套不好意思那個法院認為說不適用因為畢竟我講一個最簡單的擇救這件事情在公寓大廈是不可能出現的嘛擇救嘛所以這個也是可以做法規命令的修正齁好然後我大概再給我個兩分鐘我大概講一下就典交的問題啦典交的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6950.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6968.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
事實上我們是法規控缺例如說不動產交易不動產預收買賣契約書應記載事項是直接超公益大廈管理條例第57條但是我們會發覺有個地方很怪就是說專有部分專有部分是有規範要修繕之義務共用之部分不好意思沒有法院對於57條能不能當作請求權基礎是有爭議的 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6977.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7002.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
OK嗎?而且57條本身也有問題因為專有部分可以用尾款去卡共用部分能不能?不行這樣子對於建商而言我們要減少輸送嘛建商就不怕了嘛然後第二個其實建商有很多奇怪的條款例如開放公車試騰點交我有看過或是建商自己利用管理負責人那段時間自己單方點交這樣官員會做認帳 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7006.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7033.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這個東西在英記載不得竟然事實上都有問題還有建商也會掌控管理會的財政大權例如預收預收六個月的那個所謂的管理費到後來那個管理會成立啊他不給啊他說不好意思齁那是管理費不是公共經濟沒有移交義務啊欸他說契約有定喔契約是這麼定的喔所以我們可以看到說是預收物買賣缺失他只是把共用部分只規範57條這是不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7037.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7065.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這個讓管委會在談判上一定要透過訴訟我都跟管委在講反正那個賣生氣你們都簽了嘛對啊文哲用巧的不行就打官司他打很久這大概是就是相關的書面資料裡面大概再講一下最後我要講一下就是其實區那個建商他真的可以干預很多我有看到一個修正案修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7068.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7080.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這修正草案是說禁止收委託那個委託書所謂只能代理一戶為主但是要考慮一下第一次去搭住戶之間是不認識的但是建商還是有保留戶這樣我們小鄉也無法聚成啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7086.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7101.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
一切的規定從所謂的預售物買賣紀念書的範本炒約等等到管委會區大開會等等到後面的所謂可決數32條的五分之一等等不好意思喔建商只要10%就可以說一件的事情了甚至我們公立單位管理條例只規定了表決權沒有規定選舉權五分之一限制不及於選舉權 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7113.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7116.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
這就是為什麼民間會傳出建商怎麼控制管委會這個權力分配本身就出問題哪些是團體內哪些是團體外最後我提到最後一件事這個是請各位自己看好像網路上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7130.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7153.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
最後我要提到一件事是說其實公寓大廈的管理是都市計畫的一部分我相信嘛它是一個階層但是我們的修繕權限對管理會最頭痛的是重大修繕我說白話一點我們社區那麼大每次消防檢查一檢查出來就是八十萬重大修繕幾萬 三十萬我要開區大嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7158.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7184.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
因為也講得很清楚啦,一天到晚都開不成啦要不要修?出事了國安委會會不會被告?可是不好意思,重大修善跟公共經濟使用權和核准全都在區大我在修的時候,甚至我們社區也有電信室燒起來對外聯繫權斷要不是我本身念法律的,就說這個東西應該要趕快修事後再追認,可是有幾個族,國安委會敢這麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7186.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7207.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
沒有例外條款啦包含頂樓漏水也是一樣法院也是寫啊這個通常事情可以慢慢決議啊侵權行為不能慢慢決議啊這個是涉及到所謂的群體關係嘛好大概就這樣啦詳細的部分是希望說以後有機會再跟各位學者專家互相交換意見謝謝好謝謝我們黃之堅助理教授下一位我們請台中市物業管理協會黃正德理事長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7231.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7232.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
主席各位貴賓我是台中市務會管理協會理事長目前擔任我們台中市爭議條署委員會的委員那我剛剛借很多先進有講過的我們條例裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7257.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7270.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
第18條只有公共基金沒有講到管理會只有規約裡面有寫到管理會所以說這個管理會是不是要把他納到條例裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7271.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7289.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
很重要就是說如果以基金我們條例49條不繳就可以罰了可是管理會管理會要經過兩期的催收我這個是歸裡面那個那個才有管理會的管理會的那我們在七分所有錢大樓裡面大樓裡面常常的糾紛就是失權 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7300.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7310.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
所以說剛剛我們處長有講到我們中央訂了很多很好的有沒有去落實這個最重要最重要所以說規約呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7313.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7331.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
規約是我們自治管理的一部分可是規約是不是很重要?協來訂定是不是很重要?所以說有的我剛剛有講到剛剛大家都是物位管理公司對不對?可是我要糾正一下我們根本沒有物位這兩個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7334.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7354.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我們在大樓裡面是保全公司跟公益大廈管理維護公司所以說為什麼大家都統稱為物業我們在講物業就是保全跟公益大廈所以說這個部分是不是也要把它訂正一下是不是物業到底要不要把它統稱物業 要不要統稱物業 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7359.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7383.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
在這個糾紛裡面大家講到說要自治管理我們處長剛剛也講到要回歸住戶的自治管理可是住戶具有專業性嗎一般的管理公司管理公司的專業性有的就不足了所以這個要做什麼中央有義務責任要教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7383.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7409.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
教育我們的社區的委員教育我們管理公司的各階層幹部譬如說事務委員的政策你怎麼發他拿到一個政策就去執行大樓可是他對大廈管理條例都一知半解那管理條例我們有設定很多很多正義性的很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7410.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7438.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
都各自解讀才會衍生到爭議很多比如說我們管理公司有的在開會的時候召集人召集人到底是人還是管委會還是公司當然是人對不對可是很多都寫管委會召集人很多都寫那個建設公司起召人起召人沒進去喔就寫建設公司召集人還有更扯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7439.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7458.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
有的建設公司有信託對不對那這個召集人是誰我這個都要把它擬清楚那我們內政部營建署有個函令沒有召集人的會議是無效對不對那他通知的時候沒召集人根本無效 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7460.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7486.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
如果去舉話你們會認定嗎會認定嗎所以說爭議點是很多的比如說我們在條例裡面有很多都是各自解讀譬如說第10條第12條還有還有我們我講個例子我們大樓有一般灑水系統對不對那灑水系統是專有部分還是約定專用還是共用我這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7489.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7512.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
大家都各自解讀因為在建築法規裡面11樓以上才要有灑水系統跟那個商家那個才要設置灑水系統那這個灑水系統如果是區分所有的專有的人把它關掉怎麼辦怎麼辦這個就是要把它擬清楚擬清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7517.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7540.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
還有再來有一種不解的地方就是馬桶馬桶的下方的排水是不是是不是以前舊的就在樓下的那個那個那個浴室的坐著那個天花板在上面那個熱水在以條例裡面就是要共同來分擔可是樓下的有新湖嗎他說你樓上在在用使用的熱水為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7547.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7566.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我要來分擔所以說這個種種種種是不是是不是要把它寫的說清楚講明白不要才會產生爭議我再舉個例子35條對不對我們住戶都可以利害關係人都可以去影印對不對有人要去影印什麼呢那個合約書主委不給影印那個區前人的簽到簿主委不給 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7576.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7604.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那這個是不是在條例裡面或者我們解釋函裡面把它弄得比較清楚一點才不會產生那個爭議好那我從第一項怎麼去紓解對經費不足當然大樓大樓在三十五十年以後在外牆的脫落外牆的部分修山就比較多那這我建議政府要去編訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7606.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7625.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
編訂這些預算還有你要納入法條將管理會提撥基金的要不要一定要強制這個就是以後修繕的問題再來如何降低7分所有錢人會議的爭議7分所有錢人會議的決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7630.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7641.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
現在很多剛剛我們那個黃教授也講到多數暴力對不對你店面的管理會以前都是打折現在把它調成百分之百所以說我們要把它講得很清楚為什麼店面會打折為什麼你不給店面丟垃圾這個就是產生正義的問題還有初期決議的人數比例計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7657.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7686.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
尤其在區權會比例計算決議比例計算很不好計算很不好計算因為大家用舉手表決或書面表決都沒有比例都沒有比例我直接來進入我們政府的協助典交57條規定的很詳細水電機電設施消防設施各管線 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7687.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7714.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
進行檢測確認政府單位沒落實都去什麼去改個章你檢查好了沒有檢查好了沒有去改個章這個其實你們規定的很清楚要去會同見證點交會同去檢測有沒有所以說中央一定要建立一套點交的SOP標準作業流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7715.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7739.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
社區的委員有利可行有利可行再來現行我們我們要委託委託第三方的公正典交部分包含土建還有我們實際上我們委託第三方來檢查的時候累了一千多條的的缺失這個也是不合理這個也是不合理是不是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7740.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7760.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
要做一個很明確的這個電政典交的委託廠商是不是誰來支付當然管委會一直說講你建商有賺錢是不是建商來支付那有的建商是事先就請機電消防來做檢討報告了可是管委會不信任他 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7762.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7787.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
是不是也建請建商要做的時候等管委會來再來一起做不要花兩條錢還有最大的爭議最大的爭議就是剛剛我們黃教授的預收管理會合約書買賣合約書有時候預收管理會他可以支出所以說在未成立管委會之前建商都把這些錢花光了 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7788.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7814.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
因為有一所管理會那站在管委會的立場是你應該是從管委會成立以後這個經費才是由管委會來支付之前的之前你請的管理公司這個錢應該是建商來支出為什麼呢因為第一你在做房屋點交的時候也是在服務替公司在服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7815.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7843.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
第二你建商裡面的設備設施誰在看管也是在幫你看管不是幫管委會幫管委會是管委會成立以後才再來做這個事情所以說我是建議在未成立管委會前建商要來支付這個管理福威這把納入法條納入法條還有在最後最後因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7844.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7871.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
講到典交問題有的社區一點就是一年兩年三年就是典交產生那個糾紛再來我們最後那個我們第28條有規定建物登記建物登記一半以上三個月內要召開成立管理委員會這個也不明確為什麼不明確這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7873.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7891.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
一半以上是指過戶完一半以上還是家屋完一半以上這個也要很明確的好 以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝我們黃振德理事長的發言下一位我們請台北市預管商業同業工會 白惠斌理事長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7900.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7920.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
主席還有我們在座所有的先生女士大家好我想剛剛所有的專家學者應該報告很多了我比較從比較大的方向來談這個事情我先介紹一下我從事這個行業快30年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7922.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7949.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
擔任縣市的爭議調除委員會也8年到9年的時間了從開始立法我就擔任爭議委員會的委員到現在那我們大家覺得公益大廈的問題好像非常的多不過我以15的這個經驗從事30年跟8年的爭議委員到目前為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7950.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7978.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我還是非常肯定我們現在這一步的這個這個管理條例因為目前大概真正的爭議我認為不會超過太多的比例因為我們也服務這個現場很多社區這麼久所以我想第一個先跟大家報告這一步的這個管理條例我想大部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7979.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8005.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
已經把目前所有的這個事件大概都有做一個規範但是因為公寓大廈本身本來就是包羅萬象他沒辦法規範到所有的法律所以呢適用相關法律的時候呢我相信他就可以用其他的法律譬如說民法去解決那剛剛各位專家學者所指教的呢我在這邊再補充幾個重點第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8008.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8032.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我覺得今天八個提綱我認為還是回到社區自治的精神有些部分可能不太適合特別為它去考慮因為我想公共利益的立場剛剛大家也都知道公益大廈管理條例從84年到現在30週年歷經了很多次的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8033.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8058.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
修正但是呢都是小修啦剛剛我們這個林老師特別提到都是碰到重大災難才會修啦都是小修一條兩條那我不曉得大院這邊應該了解我們主管機關在2013年大規模的召集了所有的專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8059.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8071.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
也討論出一個大修的版本大概從16個方向如果那個版本通過今天8個提綱大概應該全部解決了我還是建請大院聽說連委員會還沒有排進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8079.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8093.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那可能可以跟這個國土署這邊來了解一下2013年有一個大討論的版本那個我想林老師應該也很清楚那我們所有的專家學者已經討論過N次了 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8095.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8119.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
但是就是排不進立法院也利用這個30週年在這個地方懇請大院把那個版本拿出來其實有很多都可以解決我想這第一個我先說了第二個我想我們在這些爭議事件裡面有一些社區的爭議事件裡面以我實務從事爭議調處委員的立場來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8123.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8151.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
原則上其實也沒有什麼大問題其實就是公民參與不足的問題包括比例 包括什麼其實我們也有授權規約可以去制定所以各個公寓大廈你可以根據你自己本身的特性要調高門檻 降低門檻我想這個都是有解的目前的法律條例都是有解的 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8151.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8171.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
所以我覺得沒有特別需要為了這個事情特別再拿出來討論因為就回到這個社區自治的精神包括他經費不足經費不足如果我們給他給予補助或給他政府有什麼其實這公平正義立場是不應該的 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8173.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8193.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那我是不是每個管理會在繳的時候就故意繳低一點然後讓政府來補助所以這個是不可行的啦這是不可行的不過有些部分我覺得倒還是可以在藉由這一次30週年討論的時候在立法的時候特別去考慮譬如說包括長期修繕的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8194.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8208.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
長期修繕的部分應該要給公益大廈所有的委員會因為他們其實都是不太清楚慢慢學習不過已經這個學習效能越來越好了很多公益大廈已經很上軌道譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8209.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8235.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我們實務經驗是這樣 大概約當你收的管理費大概七成付給這個事務管理人跟保全 人力的部分兩成是在做一般的開銷 十個Percent當作公共基金提撥可是呢 很多公益大廈他在一開始的時候都是期待我少繳一點啦 可是他沒有長期修正的觀念 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8235.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8256.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
但長期修繕這對於未來延老又變成這個延老的問題所以我覺得還是要鼓勵公益大廈做一個標準讓不管你管理會怎麼收但是你一定要有一定比例提撥公共基金修繕基金我覺得這個才是根本之道 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8257.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8273.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那其他的部分呢我想大家都提過了不過有些部分還是可以專案去補助啦這是專案補助的立場不是固定這個立法譬如說跟公共安全有關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8274.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8298.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
比如說外牆 延老 老舊社區這個我想政府如果行為餘力還是可以撥一些預算來鼓勵公益大廈從事整個外牆維修的部分鼓勵他或者是剛我提到我們整個公益大廈實施到現在最大的問題就是公民參與不足為什麼參與不足基金很多的搶著要 搶著競選然後長期把持 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8302.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8328.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
基金不夠的你怎麼推都沒有人要出來當委員所以整個鼓勵公民參與這件事情目前的經費只有在文化部文化部有提撥叫做社區營造的經費但是社區營造的經費我覺得還是比較大的program大家還是搞不太清楚你要弄了很多的補助的計畫才能夠去申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8329.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8354.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那我覺得這個倒是可以回到主管機關國土署這邊因為文化部離公立大廈有點遠因為那是在社區營造的部分那來鼓勵公民參與我覺得這才是根本解決這個問題的地方那再來最後一點我要建議我當了八年的正義調處委員老實講真的工人不髒為什麼工人不髒因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8356.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8364.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
沒有人最後來協調結果是我一方不來我就協調不成立了所以他沒有強制力所以是不是加強爭議調出委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8368.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8389.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
這個的部分的功能我記得大院好像也有人建議這個討論過這個議題就是怎麼樣去讓他在調處的結果視同司法判決一審判決因為就有點檢疫法庭的味道來解決這個爭議事件的問題以上 謝謝好 謝謝黃耀兵理事長的發言下一位我們請中華民國預管權聯會高敏進理事長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8415.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8442.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
主席以及各位在座的學者專家 大家好我是中華民國工藝大廈管理維護商業同業工會全國聯合會理事長 高敏靜我想在這裡我就是回應一下剛剛我們這個台北市工藝大廈管理維護商業同業工會潘瑞斌理事長的這個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8445.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8458.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那我們在其實應該在2011年的時候那個時候就是那時候是營建署應該是高文廷組長還有我們的朱慶倫的副組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8462.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8477.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
就是原定應該是在那一年5月開始已經啟動了再一次就是針對102年的這個法令還有加上一些我們全國的這個縣市政府各個公寓大廈這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8479.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8493.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
建管單位的意見以及有一些我們這個業界的產業聯盟的這個工協會的意見原本是在那一年的五月一直到 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8494.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8522.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
重啟這個修法的進度預定是在當年度的年底希望能夠讓他受利潤能夠通過可是因為疫情來了之後就把這個修法這個部分又耽擱了所以我也回應一下就是趁著真的在這個30年的時候我們希望這個公益大家管理的這個條例能夠盡速的能夠排入議程 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8523.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8549.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那我想針對剛剛就是各位專家學者所反映的這些意見的確公益大壓管理條例其實它這是一個自治的精神所以有一些它的這個的確我們這個政府的力量除了在現有的公益大壓管理整部的這個條例其實它是非常足夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8550.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8568.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我們全國的公益大廈管理維護公司的這個因應業者預計這個條例到目前為止其實它是非常夠用的當然還有一些小部分其實真的可以去做這個調整補修那我想大概也針對一些議題我也大概說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8578.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8604.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
其實這個公寓大廈管理經費不足這個部分我想大家都是現在都是管理委會都是量入為出所以我也贊成最重要的就是必須要的一個長期修正這個是攸關於現在政府一直在推的都更圍牢公共安全甚至可能是消防等等的這些管理維護 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8606.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8629.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
這些運作所以我想長期修正這個立法我覺得是贊成的這個是一個可行的方向另外就是區分所有權人會議爭議其實我們現在對於區分所有權人的資格參與代理等等這些都有一個很清楚的一個規範所以這個並不會有問題我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8635.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8657.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
這個社區裡面的爭議常常我們自己產業非常清楚有時候真的就是可能就是委員之間的派系對立或者是利益的這樣一個派系的對立我想這個部分並不是我們公權力可以去解決的 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8659.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8679.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
至於在爭議調解我想就誠如剛剛潘理事長所講的我們現在的調解其實除了區公所還有各個縣市都有爭議調解委員會甚至如果說你可能就爭議調解不成那當然就是進入訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8680.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8691.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
這是又是曠日廢吃所以我想如果能夠把這個爭議調解的這個把它的這個法制性能夠加強一下入法我覺得這個也是可行的另外就是公益大廈這個點椒的這個食物 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8702.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8731.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那我們就是在新的這個建築物 新的比如預售屋或者新的建物由起造人負責檢測的責任可是我們工藝大管理卻沒有針對這個部分去明定這個費用由誰來負擔所以我建議可以把這個由起造人檢測的責任把它明定這個費用是不是由起造人來負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8735.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8739.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
這個就會維持典交的程序能夠順利進行另外就是公益大廈我們平常管理公司的評選我想我們各個縣市政府都有在經常舉辦公益大廈管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8759.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8769.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這個優良公寓大廈的社區以及優良公寓大廈管理公司的這個評選我想我們等一下在座的也有幾位的這個專家他們都是這個評選的這個委員所以我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8775.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8797.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
還有我們各個縣市政府針對一些補助方案裡面其實現在都有其實有一些縣市政府它有提供外牆修繕的補助還有公共區域維護修繕的補助甚至可能是社區裡面的潛能設備的補助其實我想各個縣市政府都非常用心 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8799.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8821.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
他們當然就是在經費可以許可而且也鼓勵尤其是我們現在全國的老舊建築物幾乎30年以上幾乎達到500萬戶所以這一個我們也看到這個縣市政府在這個公益大家管理上琢磨其實也是非常的用心那另外就是如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8827.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8855.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
現行公益大樓管理的這個標準的作業流程我想我們代表就是全國所有公益大樓管理公司其實我們都知道我們社區一進駐的時候我們就一定會擬定一個社區一個全能度行事曆以及長期修繕等等的這些所有的現在的標準作業流程現在不管是社區各個方面的設施設備其實我們已經走上專業分工 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8857.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8881.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
如果這些標準作業流程我想全聯會這邊可以提供一些我們這個業界的管理實務這些標準化的作業流程我們可以把這個實務上當然可以提供出來讓我們的主管機關來做參考以及如果有需要的這些社區可以去作為一個參考使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8888.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8896.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我想站在一個 全國聯合會的一個角度來看我覺得目前為止 供應大廈管理我們這個產業我有幾點的建議我覺得現在呢 老舊建物這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8903.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8917.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
我們應該 我想現在縣市政府我想都有在成立 輔導成立公益大廈管理委員會的這樣一個我想我們在座也有幾位專家他是承攬這個成立管理委員會的這個組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8920.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8939.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
如果這個老舊公寓它並沒有成立管理組織你更不要談既然沒有組織更談不上說要去落實任何社區自治的這樣的一個權利所以加速成立老舊公寓大廈成立管理委員會這個組織我認為必須要持續的推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8945 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8957.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
另外就是危險老舊建築物的推動更新修繕管理這個是必須要持續的能夠來政府來繼續推動然後維持這個公共安全的管理第三個我們最近很夯的一個議題就是高層大樓的防災室剛剛我想前面專家也有提到高層大樓的防災室 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8974.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8999.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
因為去年新竹的一個社區的失火我們可以看到這個高層的防災室現在又被重視起來這個本來法律是有的但是現在就是嚴格執行之下我想有一個問題是我們防災室我們公益大廈管理人員我們願意去配合但是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9002.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9023.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
委訓的單位其實是不足的非常不足現在全國只有三個單位因為消防局把這個訓練的這個責任現在劃歸給民間來做甚至於昨天一位高雄市的議員提出來現在去上一個防災室的一個訓練課程要7200塊那請問這個費用這麼高到底由誰來買單 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9030.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9047.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我們從業人員他是不能負擔起的這對他而言是非常大的一個負擔所以我建議就是說這個防災室的這個訓練我希望在我們這裡大院我們能夠去協調各部會甚至消防局這邊來解決這個困難還有另外一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9054.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9079.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
現在有一個現象就是所謂的物業管理公司他也可以承攬社區的公益大廈管理我知道有一個有一個有一個比如說以基隆市來講他要成立公益大廈這個當地的維護商業同業工會可是礙於因為找不到這個公益大廈管理公司願意加入為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9080.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9097.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
因為他們只要憑著一個物業管理公司他就可以去承攬社區的這個管理的業務然後藉此規避所有我們應該遵守的一些法令所以這一點物業管理公司他去承攬社區的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9099.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9117.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
管理的業務 我認為這一點我想我們必須要能夠正視這個問題希望能夠杜絕讓我們真正合法的公益大廈管理業者能夠在這個政府的監督執行政府的法令之下能夠真正把我們這個管理的這個公益大廈管理產業能夠做好另外還有最後一點建議就是針對公益大廈管理服務人員的職能因為我們現在回訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9128.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9152.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
跟職前訓練的這個課程都是非常制式的而且非常久了都是那一套的教材一直不變所以我也建議說這個課程是不是能夠為請專家學者一起來匯集能夠針對現在的實務跟法令能夠去做成一個真正能夠有用的不管是職前或者是在職這樣一個訓練的課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9155.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9166.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
好我想就在針對代表全國工業大管理產業的工會的這個我是提出上述幾點的這個建議喔好謝謝好謝謝我們高明進理事長的發言下一位我們請陽明交大建築研究所這個柯慧聖助理教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9186.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9211.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
主席還有各位先進還有我們各位長官大家好我是陽明紮嶽建築所柯佩勝今天很榮幸能夠來參加我們這個公聽會之前我們很多的先進講得非常多我想我就開始今天議題然後來表達我自己個人的一個看法第一個就是我們對於這個公聽大會不足為問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9213.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9240.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
那基本上呢我們最近幾年的這個房價就偏高所以大家都以這個建築物的一般的維護那大家都能夠去藉經濟能力呢他都能夠去支持但是呢有些老舊公寓他有這種一個困難那事實上呢在之前先進有提到過這一個是比較有私利益的部分那這個公部門要投入多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9241.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9268.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那這個是值得考量我倒建議說我們現在的這個國家住宅中心那他現在在推動我們社會住宅那也許呢在經費的通知之下他還可以進一步去跟這個比較老舊社區的屋主那他們去談這個都更的重建或是先這個架構然後做社會住宅那以後呢再做這個都市的一個更新重建這是我個人的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9269.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9282.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那第二個呢 怎麼降低這個軍售權會議的一個爭議那這部分呢 事實上是 我想這個是我們今天公立會議很重要的一個重點那這個軍售權會議呢 是我們這個公立大廈這個軍售權共同體的最高級的機構所以他要做一個決議 也就是說我們這些共同體 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9291.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9316.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
這些全體的軍售全人要做方面的一個意思表示他要經由一定的程序然後來做一個決議那這個程序呢事實上就是一個意思規則或是我們講的一個會議規範那雖然我們在這個條例第三章裡面有提到過這方面的一個規定那但是呢他的一個組織他的一個組成他並不是以這個軍統會議的 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9320.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9331.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
過程的一個流程來排序所以我是建議就是說這個我們如果能夠去主管機關能夠訂一個區分所有人會議的一事規則範本那這個對於這個從事人員也好對於這個區分所有權人或官員會也好我想這個幫助都很大那另外就是說我們在條例裡面對主席尤其對這個區分所有權人提案權 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9350.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9373.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
然後異常秩序等等它沒有文明的規定那這個也沒有關係那這個也可以在我們的規約裡面來訂定那我們規範本對作畫面也似乎沒有詳細的規範那這個也可以提供日後我們在修規範本的時候也可以加進去或是在條例修正的時候也可以把它加上去那我現在看到的比較多的爭議的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9380.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9408.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
有幾個 第一個就是提案前被剝奪那第二個就是主席沒有明文的規定那再來異常失去那第四個就是會議通知或是會議記錄的這個送達等等這個是我們常看到的一些爭議的一個部分那我們建議呢除了剛剛這一個建議我們主管機關來訂定這個遵守會議的議事規劃方便以外那還有另外一個就是管理委員會的議事規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9410.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9417.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
範本也能夠訂定因為這個群眾會議的議事的規範我們條例它規定了一半所以這個有賴於我們規約來去做加強另外我們管理會議的議事規則事實上我們條例只有一個條文所以這個東西這部分由這個規約或群眾會議去規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9435.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9456.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那我想如果能夠有這方面的一個範本的時候呢我想會更好那另外就是說在推廣這方面的觀念的時候呢也能夠做一些這個議事流程的一個這個短片那推廣這方面的一個知識然後提升這個效率降低9分 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9459.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9464.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
再來就是說現在的這個線上系統那現在軟體很多但是比較少針對於我們這個群眾會議能夠去適用的一個線上系統或許我們主管機關也可以來製造一個這方面的系統免費的來供這個社區來使用那這個也可以這樣藏好那今天第三個議題就是管理委員會的這個糾紛 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9489.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9517.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
準備去排解或是協助好那第一個呢我認為就是說以現在來講我們管理委員會委員或是主委那大部分對於我們這方面的法令條例的規定事實上他的認知的程度還不是很多所以呢我們除了在培訓我們這個管理服務人員以外呢事實也能夠開班然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9518.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9535.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
來培訓這個公益大家主任委員我們可以前面先做這方面的一些的教材然後進一步開班讓有心能夠加入委員會的委員能夠來接觸比較專業性的一個訓練另外一個就是我們這個條署委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9544.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9558.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那我擔心泰文會也將近一二十年的時間那我的心得是有兩個第一個就是說他的一個效率上是不錯的是不錯的雖然他沒有一個法定的一個效率但是呢很多的糾紛就基於雙方對法定認知的不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9566.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9582.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
所以這個東西我是給他一個高定的肯定所以第一個那第二個呢我倒覺得他的效率不髒為什麼呢因為這個我們這個特殊委員會呢他的主稱就是有長官學然後各種不同的專業人員組成然後一開會就十幾位委員在那一邊好那也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9586.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9612.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
他的這一個開會的一個效率那如果我們能夠去參照這一個鄉鎮市調解條例第七條的規定他只要有三個委員出席經過就可以開會了也就是說我們可以針對於這一個爭議事件的屬性然後安排有幾位對這方面有這一個專業背景的這一個委員然後來組成這一個調處 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9615.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9643.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
這個是當時可以參考好那對第一點呢就是這個臨選合作廠商呢我想就是說這一個呢我們加強我們目前屬裡面的這個入伙網能夠呢公布一些不合格的主動公布不合格的這個管理公司那另外一個呢就是能夠去制定這一個工業大廈這一個採購企業的範本那也可以給設計來做參考那順便能夠設置一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9646.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9665.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
這個採購網這個是我們第四點的一個建議那第五點呢就是公設典交那事實上我們現在五十七條的這個公設典交呢事實上它是一個行政的典交而不是一個私權典交那這個假設私人典交它占百分之百那我們五十七條的行政典交大概占百分之七十因為它還有行政法 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9666.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9695.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
所以我是覺得這兩個要把它分清楚需不需要我們供應條例適應到事前點交我想這個是一個法律制度面的一個問題那第六個我們現在提示要哪一些呢那主席的容許我把這講這個是最重要的就第一個事實上我們現在主管機關我們這一個國土署主管機關的這一個預算不足人也不足我想這一個是能夠再去加強那第二個也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9697.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9723.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
幾位先進所有提到過我們現在的一個教材好幾年都沒有更新法律都是舊的我也建議說這個能夠趕快去更新一個好的教材那第三個就是回訊的制度那回訊制度呢是這個有16個小時那這個但是它是採取集中上課的一個方式那我相信呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9724.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9752.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
這一個8加8的一個上課的一個情況他的效果一定是不是很好不是很好而且五年前的教材跟五年後教材都一樣可能講的人都是一樣聽的學員都是一樣這個是一個問題事實上我們是採取可以採取一個積分制譬如說像這個建築師像其他的這方面的一個專業技師他們的一個做法採取積分制的一個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9754.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9783.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那另外呢就是說這一個我們管理費的這一個收取的一個金額好那常常有時候呢我們在規裡面會有一個空白授權的規定就是我們就是管理會就授權這一個管理委員會是自訂好那這個東西呢是說在我們這一個第四條裡面呢能夠來證定管理會不可以授權由管理會或是管理副鎮來訂定這個是一樣的建議那第六個呢也是今天我覺得最重要的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9784.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9810.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
一個議題一個主題就是說我們現在區域所有權制度尚未完善那什麼意思呢我們在這個民國18年的時候我們799-800就有承認區域所有權所以呢我們在台灣雖然從台灣本土裡面就沒有所謂的一物一權的制度我們就是一物多權的一個制度這是第一個那經過66年以後呢在民國84年我們在訂入公共大會管理條例的一個一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9812.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9826.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
法律然後呢針對專有部分我們做出明確的一個定義但是呢在這個16年以後在我們98年在修訂民法務全篇的時候好那我們在這個799條對專有部分也做一個定義但問題是兩個定義不一樣就差一個這一個構造上的獨立性以產生為目前這個行政機關對專有部分的認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9842.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9866.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
跟這個大部分法院的判決會不一樣尤其是外牆的全署我是認為說已經16年的已經16年了那這一國兩制的這個法律制度什麼時候可以結束那這個問題比較大因為還進行到這個司法院法院的問題那我想是不是大家能可以重視這個這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9869.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9878.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那最後呢就是這個最後呢就是很感謝很感謝這一個委員能夠這一個來開這一個公聽會讓我們民間讓有這個機會然後表達我們的看法意見以上謝謝好謝謝柯貴聖教授下一位我們請社團法人台灣社區培力學會陳世宏執行長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9901.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9928.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
主席還有各位先進大家早上好那我先自我介紹一下我是台灣社區培育協會的執行長那我有擔任過公益大廈500多戶的主任委員然後也擔任目前擔任四個縣市的公益大廈爭議事業調組委員那也擔任了我們管理服務人的培訓講師那我為什麼要講這些不是在凸顯一個問題我在凸顯一個什麼東西我今天來到這邊我自己成為專家學者我覺得蠻汗顏的 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9931.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9954.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
主要是大學的教授 博士級以上的才可以參加 參加中大學的可是我們公益大廈沒有博士啊 為什麼台灣的所有的公益大廈的學系全部死光光啦所以這個 這個為什麼我們沒辦法去提升我們的公益大廈呢因為我們這些人可以讓民眾幸福嗎我不知道 我自己對我自己是打一個問號啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9955.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9965.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
所以說這個部分我先提我沒有要冒犯各位先進的一個意思這個是我們值得去思考的一個問題這也是我們要提供給我們主辦單位的我們如果要提供一個提升一個產業一個事情的時候是不是應該要從專家學者專業的角度去切入那這個部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9976.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9993.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
是不是應該要強化我們所謂的大學的部分的相關的參觀的科系甚至於說如果公寓大廈管理條例是跟我們的人的生活息息相關的時候是不是要延伸到我們小學教育跟社會的公民的教育裡面去讓他們從小 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9995.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10014.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
就可以體會到所謂的公益大廈的區分所有群眾會議的這些問題好這是我要先說明的第二個延續剛才兩位工會的理事長說明的我個人教了這個總幹事十幾年了我個人認為公益大廈目前的版本的公益大管理已經十分完善了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10015.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10023.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那是什麼問題呢是人的理解性的問題跟執行上面的一個問題而且我建議一個法的安定性如果說我們對現行的法律已經不夠了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10030.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10045.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
已經沒辦法去了解你不斷的去修改它你更不了解它那你這樣子的話是不是有點有點本末倒置我們是不是應該像要讓民眾先了解我們現行這部法律它的真正的用意是什麼意思是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10046.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10064.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那如果有不足的地方我們再來加以修正不過有一些有涉及到時代的進步像充電樁啊這些東西是值得要去修改的因為什麼因為現在他們的目前的條例的規定是不符合我們整個政府的一個一個所謂的綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠這個是有必要修改那其他的我們應該要從加強民眾的一個法律的一個認知上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10072.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10095.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
尤其是管理服務人的一個一個本職學員的一個強化裡面才去著手那在執行的過程裡面才可以去深刻的體會到到底民眾你想想看民眾了解了以後我們才會知道法律不足的地方嘛民眾對法律都不了解我們幾個人就說這個法律不足我覺得這個是也有點也有點需要打一個問號的一個地方好那針對幾個問題呢第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10097.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10121.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
有管理經費不足的問題剛剛有理事長也提出來嘛私領域你們覺得我們大家覺得私領域適合拿很多的公務部門的資源進去嗎管理費不足就調到管理費那個就是他們自務自治嘛而且重點是要有一個地方所有的民眾知不知道政府部門相關的局處有編列相關的預算在補助公務大廈不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10122.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10142.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我坦白跟各位講四年前我出來擔任我們社區的主任委員我一年可以跟新北市政府申請一百三十幾萬的補助回去這樣子哪有什麼金費不足的問題如果說這些訊息能夠適時的傳達到所謂的所有的工業大廈的民眾那唯一需要提補助的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10143.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10167.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
現在因為城中城大火在福島的老舊公寓大廈這個是需要去檢討的因為他們就是沒有錢沒有錢那怎麼檢討呢我會覺得應該給予所謂的利息補貼或者是他成立了以後成立了以後那我們從內政部去跟銀行協商是不是可以給那些老舊公寓大廈因為什麼他一成立馬上面臨建築公關廠要申報消防設施設備檢修申報的修繕這些人 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10171.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10175.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
他們一聽到這個就嚇死了我成立我當主委又是馬上抓去關我沒有錢啊你馬上要我面臨這個問題那你說政府部門無止盡的去編列預算補助我覺得這個是也是沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10187.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10210.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
沒辦法完全的那是不是可以請銀行給他們所謂的免息的貸款或者是內政部給予所謂的一個利息補貼的一個部分那再來就是有關於爭議事件調處的部分的話有關於兩個爭議事件的糾紛的話我贊成剛才我們工會的理事長所提議的因為我本身擔任四個縣市的爭議事件調處委員會的委員我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10215.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10237.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
以台北市來講啦一個月調一次只有4萬到5萬啦你覺得這樣子叫做台北市天下太平嗎這個重點是什麼沒有人知道有這個調出委員會啊沒有人知道啊不是說大家不調是因為沒有人知道有這個調出委員會所以說這個部分也是一個訊息傳達的一個問題再來就是強化調出委員會嘛每次來了以後講一講 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10239.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10248.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我們都要跟他講一句話本調出委員會的紀錄不具代表法律效力他們就冷了啊那我今天來這邊幹什麼我的調出委員會跟調解委員會不一樣那我來調出委員會幹什麼所以說這個部分可以去做一個改善跟一個強化再來就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10259.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10270.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我們遴選廠商的部分其實我們政府部門不要再跌床駕屋了每一個縣市是不是有做優良公司評選優良公司評選的時候就有評選出所謂的優良廠商那這個機制就交給他們機制就好了為什麼我們還要再去搞一個評選廠商的機制不然我們可以比照什麼交給崔媽媽基金會類似崔媽媽基金會有推薦什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10284.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10310.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
優良的搬家公司啊這個有關你相關的這個機制都可以現行的相關的制度都可以去都可以去參考所以說不是說不是說沒有我們是可以去參考再來點交講到點交我現在一直我跟協助幾個縣市做點交手冊我們在調處的時候也一直在跟民眾講其實公益大管理條例的點交有我們想像的點交那麼困難嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10311.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10334.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
根本沒有啊 他叫你點的是什麼 點的是管路設施啊對不對 可是現在人什麼 把漏水混在一起搞在一起搞到做什麼 點交三年五年點交不出來然後公共基金領不回來所以說這些問題我覺得都是 那像我們桃園市政府就針對這個問題就訂定了一個地方自治法 規定什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10334.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10352.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
起造人你如果沒有如實的跟管理委員會講說57條跟非57條的差異性的時候罰錢這個慢慢的問題就可以解決那這個部分或許可以納進去公衛大的管理條例的部分好那最後我要講的是什麼我要講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10353.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10377.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
今天我們整個早上都在講法律各位公立大校只有管理維護嗎我們為什麼一直在談法律因為非正式控制力消失了以後才要不斷的強化正式的社會控制力嗎這個不是一個好的我們如果可以追回以前體能唯美的一個精神的時候我們還需要法律嗎對不對那很多的部會都在做可是多頭馬車啊舉個例來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10379.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10393.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
社區營造剛剛有人提到社區營造現場有多少人知道公益大廈有沒有在做社區營造沒有啊文化部今天沒來文化部四年前推動一個都會請社區營造我當計畫主持人推到一半喊停沒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10395.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10422.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
沒了然後第二個我們今年是邁入超高齡百分之八十的老人家住在哪裡住在公寓大廈各位公寓大廈老人家你這種天氣還要讓他走出去可是我們現在所有的社福照顧機構住在哪裡剩在公寓大廈以外你這種天氣還要讓他走出去情何以堪而且他去公園公園運動的結果是什麼被殺了 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10423.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10450.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
被一個陌生人殺了那如果說我們可以讓他在公益大廈裡面活動的時候是不是很好各位部會有沒有在做有衛福部四年前開放開放什麼開放管理委員會可以設立社區公法據點各位知道嗎剛剛連內政部有講我們現在總共有將近六萬多個公益大廈報備對不對你們猜猜衛福部四年前開放公益大廈管理委員會可以做社區公法據點 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10451.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10476.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
四年來全國有幾個公立大廈設立社區公開據點四個台中三個新北一個我們社區只有我們社區全時段你知道我們一年拿衛福部159萬這個不好嗎我如果把這些人經營好了以後我還需要公立大廈管理條例嗎我還需要歸約嗎所以說這些東西才是我們值得去思考的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10478.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10493.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
所有的人大部分80%人住在公寓大廈不管是老人還是年輕人還是什麼人全部都住在公寓大廈我建議我們的政治應該由內政部做一個火車頭把相關的部位文化部衛福部請過來好好的談論這個問題你把人經營好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10498.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10512.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
不要每天在一直在講規約法規約法法到民眾都覺得住在公寓大廈是一個很很痛苦的一個很恐怖的事情如果我們把人經營好了把非正式的控制收入控制力再找回來的時候這個時候請問我們還需要有那麼多的規約去規範嗎以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10517.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10538.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
鄉村哪來的哪來的規約啊對不對大家大家守望相助哪需要那麼多的監視器啊所以說這些東西才是我們要去思考的一個問題沒有錯這個或許已經脫離我們公立大會管理條例的範圍了不過我也要借重這個機會跟各位跟各位先進還有我們的主管機關跟各位的大委員裡面呼籲 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10539.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10562.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
我們應該要好好的去思考人的經營的一個部分人的經營的部分是目前為止公益大廈最缺乏的可是也是最重要的我希望能夠有一天我們今天有一天的公聽會是能夠去談一談公益大廈如何落實社群營造如何落實老人的社福照顧這樣子我覺得才是民眾所需要的以上說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10564.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10571.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
好謝謝我們陳世宏執行長的發言下一位我們請台灣物業管理學會郭繼子理事長發言好這個主席各位機關的長官各位好朋友大家好我是台灣物業管理學會的理事長郭繼子我跟各位報告本學會 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10592.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10619.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我是这个台湾大学土木工程系的博士政大地震系的硕士我们学会里面有四十几位博士以上这些教授副教授分布在我们各个学校的相关专业科系里面我们每年办今年已经到第18届 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10620.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10648.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
物业管理研究成果发表会每年都会发表几十篇论文然后我们有学报每年还会颁发论文奖所以我们是一个学术团体第二个我要介绍的是我们这些年来传染了好几十个政府的委托案件包括优良供应大厦评选 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10649.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10679.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
包括社區的輔導公寓大廈的輔導包括社會住宅的評鑑等等包括公寓大廈管理手冊的擬定包括我們去年又幫台北市政府草擬了台北市公寓大廈長期休餐計畫及收費指引等等本人這三年來擔任相關計畫主持人三十幾個案件所以在座的 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10679.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10703.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
各位我們雖然是一個學術團體我們做了非常多的努力希望能夠做到公私協力然後共同創造一個良好的居住環境品質那麼在這個過程當中我也有非常深刻的體會和很深刻的感受所以這是我要報告的第三點我覺得我們的政府機關很辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10710.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10722.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
今天的題目是政府能做什麼其實此時此刻我站在這裡的心情我想問立法院能為我們做什麼修法政府早就有答案了各個地方政府每天因為掌握整個地方的全局所以他非常能夠了解掌握到社區運作的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10739.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10750.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我相信我們的科股長我們的成本都可以非常清楚的回答拿洗條例具體技術性要怎麼修可是有修嗎不是沒有提是沒有修所以尤其問政府能做什麼我認為應該要問立法院能做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10762.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10790.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
本人去年的6月25号早上在楼下一楼跟国民党的罗志强等三位立法委员开共同记者会那天我们五个人为了外墙坠落风险灾害防治的问题想要修法也提了具体的方案我那天心情非常好很开心因为联合报也很帮忙用头版半版再加上里面两个整版报道 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10793.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10810.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我回去很開心我想就修這一條應該可以修過吧而且國民黨還是多數黨團所以我就寄予很高的期待很可惜到今天為止我還沒有看到這一條法連署有任何的結果或者修法通過已經快一年過去了所以今天站在這裡我對我們劉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10819.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10828.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
主席以及台上的各位表示非常誠摯的敬意就是能夠來關心我們公寓大廈的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10831.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10852.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
法律的修正的問題今年公立大學條例頒布30週年有這樣的第一場活動我們必須要給您數大拇指讚但是我們基於期許希望不要我們就是盡量少一些失望能夠真的能夠爭取我們通過第五點我想表達的是我們現在的條例本身 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10859.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10875.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
可以说经过30年的淬炼相当的完善现在要修正的并不一定要全面性的修正因为全面性的修正对于社会的基层影响冲击太大了 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10876.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10901.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
你受不了老百姓也受不了沒有人受得了因為我們公寓大廈管理條例和其他法律不一樣不一樣在哪裡它是調節社會基層它是在做真正的我們社會的基層治理它也是一個城市治理很重要的一環它涉及到千家萬戶的權益和他每天住在那裡的生活你不要把它修到得精神病所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10902.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10932.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
建議與時俱進我們做部分條文修正就是很重要的急需要辦的那些事情例如大家都共同提出來長期維護修繕計畫的部分例如說寵物的部分例如說電動車的部分充電裝的這些部分等等都是急需修的包括公共安全的外牆最多傷害這一部分這些比較急的要做部分條文修正這樣才是好的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10933.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10956.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
这是我要表达的这个第五点第六点我认为今天在立法院这里我要跟立法院的报告民意代表也好还是地方首长也好明天又要选这个市县长又要选举了得适的居者 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10957.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10979.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
得天下如果你們沒有敏銳的感受到社會基層治理社會基層結構的變化這是反應有點遲鈍的因為過去李林長的制度是在什麼樣的制度上產生的是在什麼樣的基礎上產生的社會基礎比較分散可是我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10982.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11011.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
台北桃園等等这些城市90%以上的居民也就是你们的选民都住在公寓大厦里公寓大厦管理组织一个一个是独立的林林长走得进去吗他能发挥影响力吗我们的管委会影响力非常大本人写了一篇文章在专门谈社区权力结构这个部分你们可以参阅所以社区 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11012.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11028.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
这种巨大的变化也孕育了我们台湾非常好的民主所以社区有争议我从来不觉得奇怪因为本人在全台湾跑了两千多个社区开了三千多场区分数学会议 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11029.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11048.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
出湯圓出掉了大概1萬件以上的正義事件我想我在這裡可能有可能是台灣的一個小小的隱形冠軍因為本人是黑手本人是在太陽下在社區奔走的那一位所以我有很多的感觸時間很短講不完但是就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11049.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11074.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
這個不管你誰未來都要重視社區這一塊我今天在立法院非常強烈的呼籲立法委員民意代表和這些首長們重視這件事情最後我要表達的是社區不是沒有錢大家都說沒有錢實際上社區不是沒有錢我在一個社區開會的時候一個阿嬤八十幾歲了她名下在台北市有一百多處房產 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11075.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11100.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
為了五塊錢的管理費在那裡跟住戶吵得要死氣到最後滿臉通紅他說我不跟你們開了啦氣到我高血壓我一條老命都要跟你們玩掉了為了五塊錢可是他在台北市有一百多戶房子然後他要求我我去輔導他要求我說政府不是跟老舊大樓有補助嗎你代表政府來你為什麼不幫我申請補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11101.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11120.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
各位補助真的非常的不公平這件事情是非常有時公平的一件事情但是也有非常困難的社區例如說我在高雄跑去一個社區因為高雄市有全台灣最嚴格的公寓大廈自治條例去一個社區強制人家成立管委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11121.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11147.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
然後我就拿著機關的公文說你們不成立在縣級內然後就會被罰款那個住戶跟我講說郭先生你本事很大權很大你來罰看看有單子拿來儘管罰我這裡60%以上的住戶是靠社會局生活的所以也不是罰款就能解決所有的問題因為那裡面住了很多的社會經濟弱勢戶所以我們的政策不能一刀切要分門別類 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11150.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11177.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
放錢給地方政府最後一點我要幫地方政府再講幾句話政府很可憐沒有錢沒有人強制力不足很卑微這個是立法院要面對的我站在前天我站在某個股長的旁邊跟他聊天股長說你看我這裡做的產辦已經離職三朝了 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11180.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11197.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
就是现在公务员民不聊生官不聊生根本就是一纸离职缺人缺得要死然后想要委外又没有经费然后现在最大的学汉工厂我刚刚讲我做了几十个计划组织人承担政府的案件但是我觉得 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11198.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11222.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
剝削我最大的血汗工廠就是政府因為那個採購的價格完全不符成本我賠了鑰匙我在桃園前年頒一位讓各位大家評選排一百萬去年排一百三十萬今年又得標了以上報告謝謝各位好謝謝郭記者理事長的發言最後一位我們學者專家我們請OS都市改革組織彭陽愷秘書長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11228.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11248.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
主席還有次長還有各位的先進大家好那很榮幸來參與這個特別今天在座非常多都是公寓大廈實務上法令上非常多的先進然後奧爾斯當然是長期關心居住的議題那關於說我們對於公寓大廈的看法抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11255.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11278.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
看法呢 其實我們大概基本還是認為公寓大廈其實是攸關居住的公平品質跟安全那事實上我們其實最優先關注的是公共安全那是剛剛非常多先進也談到說我們其實有點災難式的立法那特別就是我舉上一次為例嘛 城中城大火然後我們公寓大廈就提了29條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11280.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11303.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
49條之一的修法那時候我們其實針對這樣的公關安全我們很重視的修法裡面我們當時候在上一屆我們在提出一些建議那當然有些委員的採納只是說最後在立法上沒有被通過可是我覺得今天來我也本來我看了一下報我其實很想瞭解當時候我們行政部門覺得29針對那種就是長期因設立 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11307.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11324.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
成立管委會未成立的公寓大廈面對很多問題我們要透過29條之一49條之一來解決那樣我們就我想說等一下也許可以次長或看哪一位可以回答從我們立法到現在三年多我們的績效如何我們到底全台灣輔導了幾個本來沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11327.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11342.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
沒有依法成立的我們修了29條之一49條之一到底有沒有做那這個東西就來呼應我想談的第一個事情是當時我們覺得如果從公共安全的角度上我們可以優先在注重什麼樣的事情好幫我按 對 不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11357.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11378.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
當時我們提的第一個事情是我們要不要有更強的機關的檢查權特別是針對公共安全的部分要去介入檢查的部分那我覺得這在實務上我就不多說了當時我們提到應該賦予我們純正公安消防部有更強的檢查權不然很多人就是沒有成立或拒絕檢查的部分怎麼處理好 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11380.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11407.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
第二個事情是關於所謂機關違規的處理權的部分那我覺得這件事情上也是這樣通常就是說有一些違規都先請管委會要是什麼勸告 制止要一個什麼東西覺得沒有做的事我們再報主管機關可是如果涉及到有些很明顯的公共安全的問題上要不要授權管委會有一個更即刻就直接就通報機關要來處理的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11409.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11438.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
下一頁謝謝那另外一個當然是強化管委會的公安消防的職責那就包括像大家很關心公安什麼牆壁掉落問題我們當然想說實務上很多是說每次都還要因為要這種修篩要區全會同意嘛然後就開會又開不過怎麼辦這有沒有可能在真的涉及到已經被相關主管機關認定是一個重大的公共安全的瑕疵的部分上這件事情上有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11439.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11452.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
直接可以處理的方式不用再經過就是說可能從管理人角度他就可以來去執行這件事情不用再經過所謂的屈權那事後再屈權會報備的事情這是當時的想法 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11454.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11469.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
第二個再來一個是強化公安的改善補助機制因為我們現在條例裡面是講說可以補助管理會第一個他很籠統像什麼清水溝為什麼要補助他呢第二個是要實務上也沒有錢去補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11470.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11499.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
所以我們當時的講法是說我們唯一應該要補助的就是跟公共安全消防有關的修繕而且只限定29條之一就是說已經成立了之後你們因為那些沒有成立的你要輔導他成立嗎他一開始面對很多問題針對這個事情我們應該真的要有些專案的補助相對而言我對於其他已成立的國安會我們的立場是政府不應該有什麼補助應該回到他們自治的精神下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11500.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11527.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那當然最後就來看29條之一我們當時候當然也提出一些比較多的部分是說我們政府要不要有一些更積極的輔導措施要不要編列預算給地方政府他真的可以開很多輔導的作業來做嘛實務上我不知道怎樣所以我等一下真的特別請內政部這邊報告你們過去照你們29條之一跟49條之一你們到底成功的輔導了全台灣成功的輔導多少件的社區沖 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11529.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11538.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
未組成而且有你們講法是有安全之餘的集合公寓轉成了是一個公寓大廈管委會的部分好 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11540.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11558.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
最後部分我大概 第二個也是從公共安全角度來談的事情第一個當然我簡單呼應 一個是結合現在內政部我知道次長也在 你們也提出虛憑改革的方向那我也覺得車位這件事情應該配合 如果有機會應該配合在這次公寓大廈條例的修法裡面來去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11560.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11574.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那另外剛剛我也呼應剛剛有個先進講是說如果對於有一些公寓大廈原則上不應該補貼可是如果他們有重大優善我們是不是可以評估用一種叫長期的低利融資的專案就是來協助是一個融資概念的協助不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11575.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11589.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
借錢給你的不是補貼的那最後一個我要特別談一下其實今天非常多先進談的就是說維護跟中長期修繕的依據我覺得這個是非常的重要可是這個部分上我們要問的是說第一個是這個計劃由誰來定 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11591.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11613.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
是誰來定這個計劃?第二個公共基金是要有多少的比例才是一個合理的?要有一個規範嗎?那第三個是從政府的角度我們怎麼引導?剛好這個事情我就稍微去整理一下幾個我想也許最後談幾個國家的制度,包括日本、德國、新加坡、法國相對於臺灣,例如像說有一些國家他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11615.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11633.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
編訂這個計畫是建商的責任像新加坡就是建商你要做這件事計畫那個中央有些當然是回歸到我們所謂的管委會的責任像日本啊法國啊德國那有些國家是強制性一定要做那像日本是比較是引導性可是基本上實務上多數的社區都會做這個計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11634.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11661.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
那第二個事情是他們在法規上是很明確的設置要有修繕基金他的概念跟我們現在的我們現在是有點混淆啦就是他把這個修繕基金跟日常維護的錢是分開是這一筆錢專門存起來是為了中長期修繕的部分上那每一個國家也有些不同做法是不是非常多是強制設定設立而且他們甚至有一個叫比例的要求例如說你一定那個儲備比例的要求等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11662.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11684.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那最後一個部分我是覺得是政府的部分上應該特別談我覺得這個事情是重要包括我知道現在因為社會住宅的部分事實上我們國土署包括住都事實上也非常認真的在談說台灣的整個中長期修繕的成本有多少所以說政府像我是建議像比照日本日本國土交通省他會有一些叫做標準執行的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11686.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11700.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
可以供社區參考就是說怎麼樣來推估你的中長期修繕成本那甚至他們有些中長期修繕計畫的一個認證制度要鼓勵社區來去做類似這樣的事情那為什麼我會特別談這一頁呢我最後再講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11702.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11724.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
我還是從一個公共安全的角度來談最後意思是說現在應該是說現在我們的集合公寓大廈大概有兩類第一類是要因成立而未成立的部分基於公共安全的角度我們要不要一些更積極的作為輔導他們來去成立管委會而且優先解決他們馬上面臨的公共安全的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11725.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11744.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那第二類是針對已成立管委會的部分上我們其實是要避免說他可能過十年二十年三十年之後因為沒有中長期修繕又重到了原來的問題所以我們第二部分是說一定要把台灣引進這個中長期修繕的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11744.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11760.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
那我覺得我最後還是強調公益大現在是大家所有權的集體財產所以我們應該政府的角色是應該尊重他們自治可是我覺得像類似中央銀行市場是我們應該提出一個規範讓大家要提撥合理的比例的錢去做儲蓄 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11761.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11775.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
因應可能未來十年二十年有待我覺得這件事情一定要制度化如果我覺得國務卿再不做事過十年二十年之後這一線又重蹈跟你們談要補助啦要督更啊我覺得這個事情一定要趕快來做好謝謝好謝謝我們彭洋楷秘書長的發言這我跟大家報告一下本來本席也想要上台發言但是找不到代理主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11788.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11812.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
所以我知道用宣告的方式跟大家簡單的報告這場公定會的初衷其實我們自己在地方跑行程我個人最喜歡參加就是大樓的區選會這不只是剛剛我們郭理事長特別講公寓大廈才是票場不只是因為這樣的理由而是因為我非常清楚我們從事政治工作其實都很了解社區大廈的區選會其實才是真正的民主第一線 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11813.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11829.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
如果有好的大廈管理品質有好的社區的氛圍禮人為美的精神那其實不只是鄰里會和諧整個台灣的民主素養也會提高所以我都非常喜歡在第一線去見證這些事我甚至有的時候都很雞婆在他們吵架的時候我也當一當公道伯 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11830.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11855.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
還有幫忙處理的一些事情所以某一些層面來講我個人在政治工作的生涯裡面我也貢獻了一點點在這個公益大廈管理這個領域我也算是有點努力那我對這個領域非常有興趣也希望可以有具體的進展所以今天來排了這樣子的一個公聽會如同各位所見這個領域雖然有其專業但畢竟對於大部分的政治人物來講它其實是一個陌生的東西大家都知道大廈很重要大家也都希望拿到大樓客的票 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11856.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11880.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
但問題到底要怎麼去做它就像要學習一門新的知識一樣其實這是一個藍海而且我期待大家共同來開拓因為只有大家都共同來重視而且把大廈管理的品質提升之後台灣才會有好的民族品質所以我想我們今天用召開公聽會的方式其實也就是先走希望這個笨鳥先飛嘛我們就先在這個地方努力先了解一下這些大家在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11881.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11899.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
領域上面不管是學界也好或者是實務界也好的工作者大家的想法到底是什麼我們先做一次意見的收集我們之所以叫他叫系列公聽會也是跟大家預告我們還會再開未來就是針對不同的題目我們可以再充分來聚焦以利收縮意見變成修法的一個參考今天你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11899.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11918.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
哪怕是我們只有四五位專家學者在這個地方討論就有些人認為應該要大休有些人為先為條有些人覺得先易後難有些人覺得可以一步到位到底要聚焦在哪裡其實有待進一步的釐清那我個人也會走訪我們自己在我們選區裡面的各個大廈的管委會的官位去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11918.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11939.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
到底第一線真正比較迫切要緊的問題在哪裡所以我們還是希望今天會後大家還是可以繼續持續的提供寶貴的意見我們辦公室隨時歡迎大家的對話我們不預設任何的立場我反而希望聽到各式各樣不同的聲音然後在這樣子不同的聲音裡面找到好的交集我們至少要跨出第一步我想這是我們今天公聽會非常重要的意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11940.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11968.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
這很多人都感嘆公寓大廈管理條例啊這個從10週年到20週年到30週年好像每次都因為災難才修這個我也挺遺憾的我自己身為立法委員但是我也蠻清楚這個環境呢這個民生法案常常因為缺乏關注而缺少推動的動力但我們不能因為這樣子的一個環境我們就放棄在這一部分努力所以希望大家貢獻心力我自己我答應大家我們也會持續的努力希望公寓大廈的管理條例可以在我們這個任期之內至少有一點點像樣的進展 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11970.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11987.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
好 所以我們既然只是用宣告的時間 不能講太久齁這個請問各位專家學者我們先二輪發言好了好 我們請問各位因為大班互相聽了彼此的意見各位專家學者有沒有要第二輪發言的我們再請那個內政部統一回應之間有沒有還有二輪發言的沒有齁好 那我們就請內政部在針對今天聽完大家的高見之後有沒有一些簡單的回應喔所以我們請董事長再次來進行報告 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12006.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12022.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
好 那首先我要謝謝那個趙偉召開這樣子的一個相關的那個公聽會也要感謝今天出席的許多我們的學者專家提供了許多專業的意見我想就如同剛剛趙偉所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12022.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12046.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
工業大廈管理條例其實是一個國家非常重要的法令它奠定在 也包括許多專家都提到它是奠定在台灣是一個民主的社會我們在強調的是地方的社區自治那我也跟各位報告其實在我的博士論文在寫作的過程裡面我的老師也問我說那你認為台灣有這麼多對空間上的問題那我們怎麼解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12047.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12070.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
剛好當時台灣已經通過了公民大廈自治管理條例也通過了一定的程度所以也執行了一段時間所以我們當時會認為說社區的自治跟社區的參與其實是很重要包括在座的許多的學者專家其實都講到這件事情那只是說重點是在於說社區自治推動的過程裡面既然涉及到人他就有兩件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12070.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12085.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
一個是人對許多事務執行的時候的認知這個部分怎麼樣子透過我們對於一個環境互動的方式或者是群體互動的方式去學習可是第二個部分就是剛才各位所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12086.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12115.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
法律我們再怎麼樣在法規上面有一些更明確的規範讓大家清楚知道說我透過這些規範我可以做什麼樣的事情所以運動部在這裡我們感謝各位委員所提出的相關的意見那麼我們包括幾件事情我們在後續的時候我們會開始積極做就是說在法律沒有修訂之前我們可以做的事情是什麼首先我們會跟文化部跟衛福部我們一起討論包括之前的社造的推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12116.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12142.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
那甚至我們也會跟國發會建議我們許多的地方創生我們是不是來跟我們的這些管理協會我們一起合作引進這一些相關的人力進入參與讓我們的所謂的物業公司的物管這些部分有更多更人性化更不一樣的方式一起共同來參與這是第一個部分那第二個部分其實是更重要包括剛剛楊凱理事長所提到的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12143.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12168.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
整體的我們的針對這個房子的維修他的相關的比例許多的專家都有提到那剛剛昭偉也特別提到了我們這一些房子他都總是會老舊在老舊的過程裡面我們怎麼樣子讓他其實就有一筆存款有一筆基金可以作業那我們會積極來研議也去試算到底合理的比例是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12168.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12185.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
在現階段我要處理我的公共設施我的相關的物管之後我應該要有多少比例是放在這裡面那畢竟大家現在這個景氣都不好整個狀況我們還是要先試算一下合理是多少那以 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12186.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12214.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
這樣的方式那過去未來政府在相關的政策的時候我們也可以有一個對等的基金來做一個支持那第三個部分就是本部在今年我們會積極的去研擬討論有關於老宅延售的一個相關的計畫跟想法那也就配合總召跟各位學者專家所提到的那一些在公益掛下管理條例出現之前的這些老房子我們要怎麼樣來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12216.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12233.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
他沒有基金他沒有相關的預算可是我們也不可能說國家全面百分之百的補助那我要怎麼樣子透過跟銀行團的協商透過一些法令的規範那我們讓他有一個機會可以透過不同的方式趕快進行環境的整修 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12234.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12251.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
那當然更重要的事情是整個公立大廈管理人員的一些授訓這裡我們也非常感謝相關的協會願意接受本部的所推動的防災室的訓練那這個防災室的訓練我在這邊也再一次澄清說明整個防災室的訓練的費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12253.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12278.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
那個消防署總共有19個認證的訓練機構那我們的訓練時間大概是兩天左右就是每次8小時的這樣子然後訓練的費用我們大概在3000塊以內所以我們會再進一步的積極透過我們的消防署跟國土署的合作把這些資訊公開在網路上也跟各個縣市政府說明讓我們的務官也特別跟我們的物業公司大家一起合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12279.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12302.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
因為站在部長還有站在國家安全的立場我們防災室的訓練就是要訓練大家在面對整個緊急災難的時候尤其是天災的頻增像昨天又地震了這個怎麼樣子面對這樣子的一個地震的狀態或者是急降雨的狀態我們有什麼樣子的防災的作為這個其實是非常重要的所以我們這個部分會去積極去作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12303.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12329.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
那最後有關於整個區權會大家都有提到區權會怎麼開會好相關的糾紛什麼等等其實區權會大概目前最大的困境就是我們缺乏完善的會議規則跟議事規則那這剛好是本部相關民政業務我們會來積極來協助討論我們會找相關民政的專家跟我們的物業管理公司還有一些整個公益大廈管理委員會的這些協會我們一起來討論我們來制定一個相關的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12333.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12352.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
開會的規章這樣有一個明確的規章就像我們民權初步一樣這樣子大家就會很清楚開會怎麼開會議的過程怎麼推動那這些都是涉及到就是說在行政作為上面我們可以去處理的事情那我們也會積極處理那至於說在修法29條之一跟49條之一之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12353.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12373.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
那事實上我們在各地方政府其實我們都有明確的補助每年大概2000萬去協助這些那也相關地方也回報大概有大概300多個地方應該要去成立這些委員會那這些委員會在福島成立或者是整個公安的協助狀況之下在去年度已經降到119件 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12374.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12399.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
也就是說有很多地方他不一定成立管理委員會但是他已經把他的公安狀況都處理掉阿偉跟各位報告其實陳宗辰事件發生的時候我個人剛好在高雄市政府擔任新聞局長所以那整個處理的過程我們都有在參與那事實上地方政府是非常盡心盡力第一時間動員了現行的法令的狀況就由消防局出動還有公安公務局出動 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12400.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12415.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
去做所有大樓的公寓的管理的檢查也積極的排除許多相關的危險環境的座位但是我想就如同各位委員各位學者專家所提到的其實大家要住在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12416.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12438.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
他的關鍵就是人與人如何的互動那人與人如何的互動一定涉及到兩個在法律程式的規範之下那我們還有哪一些應該去學習彼此溝通的那這個部分我們真的會透過跟文化部跟衛福部跟國發會的合作透過社造的運作讓大家學習更多不同的人與人互動的方式以上做簡單的報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12443.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12465.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
好謝謝我們董建宏次長的報告好那麼感謝各位專家學者今天提供寶貴的高見那麼我們所有初列席人員的發言以及提供的書面資料還有我們高精素美委員還有本席牛許廷委員所提的書面資料除了刊登公報之外我們還會另外製作公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及所有初列席人員參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12467.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12480.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
所以大家剛剛有一些因為這個發言時間很短被精簡掉用書面方式的補充的話趕快送過來那麼我們再一次感謝各位的參與這大家來今天中午有準備便當這不能讓大家餓肚子謝謝大家今天的公聽會到此結束現在散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12491.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12517.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
你們思考一下 因為他剛剛有講2013年有一個大學的版本我們回去研究一下因為主要是藉其不審藉其不延續 我知道 我去撈一下資料但我意思是說要用什麼樣的方向可以先有概念如果你要先走小的 有共識 有迫切性的也可以現在最主要其實是專業的社造跟人民的社造你要怎麼去結合嘛 所以我的意思是你正願一定會有一些你想要做的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12552.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12553.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
谢谢观看 |