| IVOD_ID |
16575 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16575 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-09T08:31:22+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-09T13:25:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:53:38 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc9b2e70173c67771b4f7cda26dcb539f86e2c503bbdfdf4b6621649108217e0745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:22 - 13:25:00 |
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17581.72221875 |
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SPEAKER_08 |
| transcript.pyannote[3646].start |
17582.07659375 |
| transcript.pyannote[3646].end |
17586.66659375 |
| transcript.pyannote[3647].speaker |
SPEAKER_08 |
| transcript.pyannote[3647].start |
17587.17284375 |
| transcript.pyannote[3647].end |
17590.31159375 |
| transcript.pyannote[3648].speaker |
SPEAKER_17 |
| transcript.pyannote[3648].start |
17591.66159375 |
| transcript.pyannote[3648].end |
17591.94846875 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1717.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1737.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
報告委員會初席委員11人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會好我們現在開始開會先進行報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期司法及法治委員會第6次全體委員會議議事錄實踐中華民國114年4月2日星期三上午9時至11時13分 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1742.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1759.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員陳培宇委員12人列席委員陳妮菲委員等54人列席官員衛道主席莊昭吉委員瑞雄報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二邀請立法院秘書長列席就國會擴簽簽擴簽簽之進度及未來規劃進行專題報告並備諮詢三邀請立法院議事處處長列席就國會擴簽簽後議事廳之規劃進行專題報告並備諮詢通過臨時提案一項宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1777.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1796.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我們先介紹道場委員跟應邀列席官員首先我們介紹莊惠雄委員接著我們介紹應邀列席官員司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳廳長陳怡怡法務部鄭明謙部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1800.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1828.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
國家通訊傳播委員會主命黃文哲主命速發部長賜葉寧長賜社會部政賜張料萬堅政賜陸委會副主委梁文傑副主委內政部移民署副署長陳建成國安局副局長黃明昭先講清楚一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1830.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1856.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
其餘未介紹的列席代表請參與名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本日議程排定邀請市法院副秘書長、法務部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主委、訴發部部長、教育部部長、陸委會主委、內政部移民署署長、國安局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相關單位列席就言論自由不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1858.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1875.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
界限誰說了算國家政府特定政治言論的法律邊界進行專題報告並備諮詢現在進行報告每位發言時間三分鐘我們首先先請司法院陳一聽長報告 謝謝下一位會請法務部部長鄭部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1883.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1906.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
主席 各位委員 各位先進今天奉邀列席貴委委員會就本專題來代表本院進行報告那僅就本院的意見說明如下首先 人民有言論自由是憲法第11條所明定的而本院大法官就憲法11條言論或表現自由的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1906.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1919.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
先後有做成數則的解釋以及判決那其中也多次強調言論自由在於保障意見的自由流通使人民有取得充分資訊以及實現自我的機會國家應對 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1922.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1938.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
言論自由最大限度的保障但這也並不意味任何言論自由均絕對保障而不受到任何的限制那麼就不同類型的言論例如政治、學術、宗教、藝術或商業言論 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1940.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1954.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
會依其性質而有不同的保護範疇及限制的準則可以以法律明確規定而為合理適當的限制那麼就與政治性言論有關的憲法解釋或裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1954.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1978.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
既有這個四字445644以及113憲判五號的判決那其中445解釋指明集會遊行法相關規定乃是對於主張共產主義或分裂國土的言論使主管機關在許可集會遊行以前可以就人民政治上的言論來進行審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1981.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1995.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這個與憲法保障表現自由的意旨有違因此宣告違憲那麼644號解釋那麼也認為相關當時相關人民團體法的規定是使主管機關在許可人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1996.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1996.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2017.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2045.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
113 宪判五號是就有關刑法侮辱公務員罪及侮辱職務罪是否違憲作成判決判決理由也明確的指出國家對於涉及公共事務言論的內容以及觀點應盡可能的保持中立尤其是就直接針對國家機關政府施政或執行公務等公權力的異議或反對言論應給予最大的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2046.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2072.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
不應盡致動用刑法來直接壓制此等異議或反對的言論那麼因此檢視我國刑法的規定刑法一百條在八十一年修正之後如果僅是發表特定的政治言論而未為或者是預備為強暴脅迫的行為的話就不可能會構成普通內亂罪那麼最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2073.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2101.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
在具體的個案中政治言論自由的界限必須依照法律跟具體個案情節來參酌前述的司法實務見解做成判斷那麼本院執事司法行政對於已經細數或者是即將細數的個案不宜表示意見以維持審判獨立那麼以上報告敬請各位委員跟先進指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2104.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2111.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
好 謝謝庭長好 下一位我們麻煩請鄭部長報告那鄭部長之後麻煩張耀萬監正次報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2128.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2143.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天奉邀列席並代表法務部報告並被質詢 此報告如下那憲法第11條所保障言論自由重點在保障意見之自由流通使人民取得充分資訊及自我實現的機會而為淪為散播言 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2146.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2172.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
仇恨以鼓吹戰爭的工具那長久以來國家對政治上言論的保護一直是實現民族的一個重要的一個方式之一但政治上的言論與會政治上的言論之間呢並不存在絕對且唯一的標準具體個案中的言論性質種類及所應受保護的密度需依個案來做一個判斷那我國事現實務認為在高度政治上言論應尊重人民言論的表意權 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2173.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2199.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
言論自由的價值與國家安全公共利益今不可偏會依照憲法23條的規定如何防止妨害他的自由避免緊急危難維持社會秩序或增進公共利益所必要能得以法律來做一個限制那另外公正公約第19條20條保障人民言論自由同時賦予立法禁止鼓吹宣傳戰爭及仇視性言論的義務並強調必須遵循法律保留原則及比例原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2200.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2216.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那此以我國憲法第23條的規範是一致的在國際法上羅馬公約25條第三項規定叫所幫助促成實施魅覺種族危害人類戰爭及侵略罪者屬於犯罪行為應受處罰此外在拉脫維亞 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2217.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2237.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
芬蘭刑法設計對鼓吹戰爭行為的處罰規定而德國刑法第130條對仇恨言論擁護納粹言論亦有處罰規定另依照我國刑法規定以公然文字文字突發演說或他法上或他能犯刑法第100條內亂101條暴動內犯或103條通謀開戰罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2241.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2270.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
極有可能構成刑法153的散落貪婪犯罪的罪責那鑒於公正公約第20條已經賦予國家立法的一個義務本部隊是否就從性言論鼓吹戰爭言論徵射處罰規定將持續廣大各界意見在符合憲法第23條法律保留原則及比例原則的前提下盤點現行法制並積極妥適嚴厲兼顧保障言論自由同時維護國家安全及公共利益以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2274.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2284.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好 謝謝部長好 下一位我們請張亮萬間正次報告那接著再下一位我們會邀請梁文傑副主委報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2285.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2311.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
主席 各位委員 各位理事先生 大家好本次受邀列席貴委員會進行專題報告緊究高級中學以下教育階段教師教學專業自主權及言論自由之法令規範專業原則及因應作為提出報告第一 法律規範與專業原則那麼第一 有關憲法保障原則依中華民國憲法第十一條規定人民有言論自由言論自由為憲法保障基本人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2312.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2338.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
適用於所有人民,老師也不例外第二,教育目的、中立與專業原則那麼教育基本法第二條也規定教育目的在培養人民成為具有國家意識與國際視野之現代化國民那第六條也規定教育因本中立原則十二年國教課綱也明示教師應依專業標準以開放多元態度引導學生理性溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2338.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2367.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
尊重差异特别在涉及社会文化及政治议题时避免植入个人立场或意识形态确保课堂中立与学生事变空间那么第三教学专业自主与义务教师法第31条规定教师之教学及对学生之辅导享有专业自主权那么第32条也规定教师负有维护校育严守职份发良师道及专业精神之义务 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2367.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2389.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那麼第四教師自主自律本部中華民國教師專業標準指引及全國教師會訂定全國教師自律公約那麼教師應善盡教育專業責任那麼具備專業表現指標不得利用職權教導或要求學生支持特定政黨或候選人那亦不得有違倫理之行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2390.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2412.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那麼第二大項本部立場與因應作為第一小項教育以培養國家意識現代化國民為目的國家主權與國家認同是學校人才培育的重要課題本部保障教師言論自由為教師之言行對學生具有重大示範及默化作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2414.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2437.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
教師之音更謹言慎行那麼第二本部及各地方政府將持續推動教師研習與倫理課程增進教師對言論自由與教育中立界限之認識此外本部在今年3月28號以含義各縣市政府轉請所屬學校應落實教育中立原則強化教師專業自主 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2439.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2464.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那麼本部呢將秉持依法行政保障人權與維護教育品質之原則持續透過師資培育與教育宣導那麼協助教師民變言論自由與教育中立之邊界以利監固憲法保障教育中立與學生學習權益持續強化教師專業形象與公民社會信賴以上報告 敬請各位委員指教 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2470.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2477.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
謝謝 接下來我們請梁文傑委員報告再下一位我們麻煩陳建成副組長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2487.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2501.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生 大家好陳蒙貴委員會邀請然後針對言論自由不在界限誰說了算國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界進行專題報告那以下請提出本會說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2502.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2526.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
中華民國是自由民主法治國家在法治界限所容許的範圍內人民充分享有自由權利那依憲法第11條規定人民享有言論自由的保障但是憲法第23條則規定人民的自由權利如為防止妨礙他人自由避免緊急危難維持社會秩序或增進公共利益所必要者外並非不得以法律限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2527.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2541.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那我們司法院大法官歷來相關憲法解釋以及憲法法庭判決都指出憲法對於原任自由的保障並非絕對立法者於符合憲法第23條規定意旨之範圍內得以法律明確規定與適當限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2544.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2568.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那言論自由的核心在於實現自我溝通意見追求真理滿足人民知的權利促進多元民主社會的正常發展等等但如果言論自由遭到濫用威脅自由民主制度所賴以依附的國家主權與安全就違背了憲法保障言論自由的目的那臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2570.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2597.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
是依據憲法徵修條文第十一條規定授權來制定那對於兩岸人民往來所衍生法律事件之特別規定那鑒於兩岸政治經濟和社會體制具有重大本質差異兩岸條例和相關法令對於經過許可在台居留之中國大陸人士相關權利義務有特別規範那以確保台灣安全民眾福祉 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2598.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2618.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那司法院釋字第497號解釋也肯定有關中國大陸人民進入台灣之資格要件許可程序以及停留期限等是為了確保台灣安全和民眾福祉並沒有逾越母法授權的範圍而且與憲法第23條規定也沒有抵觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2619.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2635.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那我們要強調的是中共始終不放棄武力犯台對我們有強烈的敵意和侵台的野心所以我們對於來台的中國大陸人民對他的言行會有比較高度的規範而且要求他們遵守我方法例 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2637.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2658.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那近來有極少數大陸人士為了個人私利賺取網路流量在台灣散佈鼓吹武力侵略台灣矮化我國主權以及意圖消滅中華民國的不當言論那對於這樣的人士我們本會支持主管機關依相關法令裁處 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2659.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2686.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那如果這些人士他對於這個行政處分不服也可以尋相關行政徵送程序尋求司法救濟那本會強調大部分陸配都是熱愛台灣認同我們自由民主制度那我們也呼籲國人應該以友善包容的態度對待也不要因為極少數人士的不當行為就標籤化特定的群體以上報告敬請各位委員執教 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2704.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2714.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
主席、各位委員、先進、大家好本日貴委員會排定國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界專題報告本屬應邀列席說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2716.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2722.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
接下來就涉及本署選擇事項進行報告 敬請各位委員會議指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2724.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2750.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
1.近期案例的說明以法律依據依據《台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例》下稱兩岸條例第18條第一項第五款之規定進入台灣地區之大陸地區人民有事實足認為有危害國家安全之大陸地區人或社會安定之予者本屬得進行強制出境或限定其十日內出境 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2751.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2776.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
欲限定出境期限能未出境者,本屬得強制出境另一,大陸地區人民在台灣地區移居、長期居留或定居許可辦法下簡稱許可辦法第十四條及第二十六條等規定大陸地區人民申請移居、長期居留有危害國家安全或社會安定之餘者 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2777.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2798.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
不與許可者撤銷或廢止其許可二、近期的案例近期有三名中國大陸的配偶因分別在網路發布影片依據影片的前後脈絡依社會通鏈做判斷取等公然鼓吹 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2800.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2821.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
無統侵略、佔領台灣或消滅我國主權之違法言論,已造成目前社會爭議四起,紛擾難平,並升高各種對立氛圍,顯有危害國家安全或社會安定之餘,對公義有重大影響,原內政部依據上述法令規定, |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2822.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2840.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
以其等有危害國家安全或社會安定之餘廢止移軍或長期居留許可並限令於10日內出境其中兩個人分別在今年的3月25號及31號於限定期限內自行出境另外一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2842.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2858.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
與縣令出境其縣人位出境經本署依兩案條例第十八條第三項規定邀集律師專家學者於本年四月一號召開強制出境審查會並依決議於當日強制其出境 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2859.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2886.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
本屬於行政程序法相關規定於前階處分書載明行政救濟管道其中有一名中國大陸配偶委任律師申請停止執行經台北高等行政法院於本年3月21日裁定駁回駁回理由提及衡量其拘留之私權利與我國社會安定之重大公共利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2886.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2914.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
尚無准許停止執行之必要且兩岸人民信其往來無重大阻礙其配偶亦得前往大陸地區團聚非僅限來台團聚在一般通念上短期內難為會導致其等於配偶間夫妻關係破裂的難源令最高行政法院在本年3月27日駁回抗告駁回理由一旨指出 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2914.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2941.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
内政部因该名中国大陆配偶发布影片之内容任有危害国家安全及社会安定之余而作成相关处分难为合法性显有疑义二本属执行作为依两公约之公民及政治权利国际公约第20条规定任何鼓吹战争之宣传应以法律禁止之两公约施行法业于98年12月10日施行 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2942.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2955.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
依該法第二條規定兩公約所揭示保障人權之規定具有國內法律效力本屬並與依法行政針對相關個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2958.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2984.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
疑似有危害國家安全或社會安定之餘情形而涉及違反兩岸關係條例及許可辦法等法令規定均依行政程序法規定調查相關事實及證據經通知當事人陳述意見並會商大陸委員會及國家安全局等機關使依法審證做成相關行政處分等處置 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2985.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3006.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
三結語我國為民主法治國家公權力不容挑戰針對大陸地區人民公然鼓吹無統勳略言論之違法行為本署均依法調查並依既有機一致做成處置以維護國家安全及社會安定本署將根據配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3007.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3033.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
政策的指示我與國安團隊密切合作共同落實國安工作守護我國民主自由之核心價值以上報告懇請委員會執導謝謝好 謝謝那我們請問一下其餘的機關代表有沒有要進行報告的有沒有好 那如果都沒有的話我們先確認依事錄那請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3035.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3036.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
上次會議書有錯誤或遺漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3041.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3066.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
沒有的話那議事錄確定那今晚代表報告完畢那相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄現在我們開始進行詢答本委員會詢答時間為8分鐘必要值得延長2分鐘非本委員會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午失戀30分截止發言登記我們現在請發言登記第一位黃國昌委員進行發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3074.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3097.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩有請法務部部長部長早部長早喔這些詐騙洗錢的重犯啊一個一個跑啊 整個社會都很憤怒啊特別啊 是有特別的政治關係啊 顏色對的金融重犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3098.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3123.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
之前跑了一個諸葛隆,後來跑了一個中文智,整個社會群情嘩然上一次我在這邊質詢部長的時候是問中文智所牽涉到的另外一件詐欺洗錢的案子新北地檢是不是還在睡,到底有沒有在辦結果沒想到在我們質詢的同時,他另外一個三省定院的案子竟然跑了 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3123.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3141.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
跑了以後這個風波啊非常非常的大因為我後來問司法院司法院讓他增加保證金取代科技設備監控為什麼找不到裁定結果搞了半天司法院當初的高等法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3142.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3165.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
根本沒有做裁定這件事情越來越嚴重跟司法院有關係的責任我明天追因為今天來的是行政廳的廳長副秘書長沒有來問行政廳的廳長對他不公平司法院的責任我明天一定追但我接下來要請教一下法務部這個是我問法務部說 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3167.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3192.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
針對解除電子監控這件事情我們的檢察官具體作為是什麼法務部說在113年10月9號開庭的時候有表示建請法院對被告實施電子監控也就是我們的檢察官當庭有表示反對 這個是客觀的事實我向來說話 有一說一那但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3193.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3215.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
增加保證經濟不延長電子監控的部分啊高檢署沒有接獲高等法院送達相關裁定的紀錄這句話也是對的因為等到今年四月才補作裁定嘛那等到今年四月才補作裁定怎麼可能會啊 接獲通知但下面有一些具體的問題啊來 先請教一下部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3217.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3244.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
為了甩鍋高院為了甩鍋說我們那個時候做裁定以前有打電話去問檢察官問檢察官有沒有意見結果檢察官都說沒有意見前面甩鍋不成現在繼續試圖甩鍋部長有沒有去了解法官說他們有打電話去問問檢察官有沒有意見檢察官表示沒有意見這句話這個是真的還假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3245.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3265.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
跟委員報告,那這部分太高情有些要分那個調製案再了解那這個還要了解多久?這個我們會盡快來...拖多久啦?群情化欄啦當初誰接的電話,找來問一問不就知道了這個需要這麼久?這事情發生到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3266.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3287.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
然後部長您跟大家講的是高檢署現在成立調治案在調查要調查多久在調查半年調查一年調查到整個社會忘記這件事是嗎需要多久需要多久我們盡快盡快盡快是多久半年一年還是一個月給大家一個時間嘛全部都在講形容詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3295.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3313.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
現在高檢是在調捐贈嗎是所以需要多久這個還要再問訪詢那個沒關係你會後問高檢需要多久書面回覆給我可以嗎可以這是很嚴重喔為什麼很嚴重我進一步請教部長因為後來發現啊高等法院竟然抽換 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3315.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3331.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
電話查詢記錄表結果高院發聲明啦說沒有沒有我們是按照後來比較正確的記憶再重新補作一份如果到時候查出來當初根本就沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3333.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3357.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
當初根本就沒有說他們對電子監控的部分沒有意見那高院做這樣子的電話紀錄表這個是不是有公文書登載不實的問題來 請教部長各位報告 這部分是民眾有來告發了那現在北檢在分攤在正辦局快點辦啦大家看不下去了啦我們的高等法院跟高等檢察署誰說謊 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3360.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3381.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
有沒有公文書記載不死我老實跟部長報告啦不管是高院還是高檢署對台灣的司法公信力殺傷力都非常大啦兩個互踢皮球踢到最後一定要有人負責更離譜的事情是什麼更離譜的事情是說哇 發現事情大條囉趕快連電話紀錄都可以抽換喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3386.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3413.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
我們在辦案的時候啊 之前做過的紀錄啊可以用抽換的方式嗎 來請部長部長 您當過檢察官很有經驗啊你要不然就更正嘛 你更正才有紀錄怎麼會用抽換的呢部長您以前在當檢察官的時候有抽換過這種紀錄嗎我沒有碰過這種的情形對喔 我現在就問你嘛 作為法務部的大家長應該做這種抽換的事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3415.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3420.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
可以這樣做嗎還是因為司法院的代表坐在下面你面露尷尬不敢回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3422.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3447.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
可以這樣做嗎這個是一個法律清楚的基準嘛就不應該這樣做嘛沒關係喔你說方案調查了我們繼續看下去但問題是啊高檢署回答問題啊其實也不是全部都真的為什麼他絕對不是今年4月才知道為什麼不是去年4月才知道去年12月16號在有關於限制出境出海 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3449.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3465.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
延長初季的裁定理由當中就已經寫了啊就已經寫了啊高院的裁定裡面就跟你們講啊欸那個電子監控我已經解除了欸所以檢察官至少去年12月就知道了請問檢察官有什麼具體作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3467.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3496.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這部分因為這個是12月16號的延長的裁定的確是有收到但是這裡面是已經他裡面是有序名裡面是說他已經解決所以我才說檢察官一定知道嘛那這部分因為我們這部分沒有申請因為這屬於那個審理中的一個電子監控的一個當然啦是因為審理中所以檢察官才有立場表達意見嘛我一般的市井小民看的再火大表達意見都沒有用嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3497.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3523.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
司法院法院就講一個啊尊重審判獨立啊尊重法官啊而且他這個跟委員報告齁這個裁定事實是針對延長限制出境的並不是針對科控的這我知道我剛已經講過了嘛現在我要建立的事情只有檢察官早就知道了這件事最起碼12月就知道我現在的問題是知道了以後做了什麼事知道了以後一看雙手一攤很無奈因為沒有申請權嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3525.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3547.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
對嘛大家現在在問的就這個事嘛如果檢察官也覺得不應該檢察官也覺得很憤怒怎麼最晚到12月知道的時候什麼行動都沒有採取大家在問的是這個事情啊我想我問題講得很明確啦沒有什麼太難理解的問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3548.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3572.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
因為最主要還是因為這不是一個科控的一個裁定所以我們也沒辦法表示意見沒有辦法表示意見 真的你確定這個沒辦法做一個法律上的一個不是啦 部長你以部長的高度講這個話全國的檢察官聽了會嚇一跳然後大家馬上鬆一口氣哇 原來這樣子部長都說我們檢察官沒有表達意見那以後通通都不要表達意見是這樣嗎對嘛 可以促請他有促請他嗎有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3578.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3602.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
大家都沒藥沒錢跟部長講得很好檢察官可以促請他問題是大家在問啊沒有啊不僅沒促請他來我們再往下看後來蔥文智啊到1月還跑去香港去了三天啊我看了這個裁定理由我看的是目瞪口呆啊他說為了要協助我國企業達成碳中和的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3604.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3629.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
然後達成產業發展淨零排放的平衡所以他獲得了香港大灣區碳中和新區區市峰會然後特別找我們的金融重犯找我們的詐欺洗錢犯跑到香港這個碳中和的峰會來擔任主講人當初讓他去香港這件事情檢察官有沒有表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3631.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3658.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
因為這個不是針對那個科控的對我知道啊但是現在大家都在講啊他的逃亡路徑啊大家有沒有發現跟祝國樓很像都先去香港先去香港幹嘛去辦護照這個法官是沒有裁定這件事沒有裁定的部長你看一下好不好白紙黑字把高等法院的裁定都寫出來了這個證是沒有開庭的所以跟那個10月9號伊森10月9號所以檢察官有沒有表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3660.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3675.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
他是有做一個電話的一個記錄本案承辦檢察官表示沒有意見你有沒有看到裁定理由上面都有寫的本案檢察官表示沒有意見但是這個裁定因為他那時候裁定還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3677.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3702.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
沒有裁定理由就寫了嘛部長大家希望你展現的是一個破例啊不是在上面護航連基本的客觀事實都不對太難看了啦這個是跟委員報告我們這個還要再去做電話記錄我們還要再做一個查證我已經跟你講這是寫在高等法院的裁定理由針對允許他去香港這件事跟電子監控是兩碼子事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3703.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3715.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
部長您聽我指許要專心一點現在我們已經移到第三個問題了你腦袋還停留在第一個問題現在我的問題是准許他去香港這件事情路徑跟出國龍一模一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3717.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3734.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
先去香港把逃亡的路線護照都辦一辦 再回來更好笑的是什麼更好笑的是我在想說香港哪一個天才團體會找台灣的詐欺洗錢犯去參加這個碳中和的高峰會議還擔任主講人 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3737.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3762.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我追中文字的案子追那麼久我都不知道中文字對碳中和這麼有研究結果來看一下大灣區碳中和協會這個是在幫中國搞一帶一路的在幫中國搞一帶一路的有沒有開會 有開會有沒有演講嘉賓 有演講嘉賓結果我整個網站看完了以後我看不到中文字三個字我看不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3764.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3789.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
他不是說他去出席那邊聽取會議喔 採地理由來我再給部長看一次 擔任主講人 擔任speaker很厲害啊 讓世界看到台灣啊到香港去啊 讓幫中國搞一帶一路啊 看到台灣啊結果 完全沒有看到 那主講人的名單根本沒他 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3790.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3813.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
整個活動網頁裡面我試圖找出中文字三個字所有的主角列出來就是什麼就是沒有中文字今天司法院的代表有坐在這邊可能回去轉告副秘書長這題我明天問當初法官是閉著眼睛在做裁定嗎當初法官是閉著眼睛在做裁定嗎現在這件事情臭不可聞來最後我要呼應民進黨立委郭國文講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3817.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3838.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
所有跟中文字有關勾結的啊 徹查金流 部長贊不贊成這部分北檢已經立案再偵辦了 我想會全面來立案再偵辦是立案再偵辦嘛現在大家北檢立案再偵辦的案子太多了啦太多了啦 但是一堆案子都放在那邊睡啦有特殊關係的案子就不會動啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3839.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3865.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
我講話我負責啊下次質詢部長啊如果有興趣我一件一件點給你聽啊什麼叫做有特殊關係的辦了好幾年放在那邊還是睡啊現在是全面徹查喔不是只查特定的人喔全面徹查部長你就有一個部長的樣子展現一個態度啊說這個事情太可惡了法務部支持全面徹查會反映這個意見給台北地檢署部長可不可以這部分我想會總告給台北地檢署 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3867.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3893.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那是我的意見啦我相信台北地檢署有聽到了現在我要的是你的立場全面測查贊不贊成我們當然有證據到來我們就辦到哪裡部長社會已經大家已經看不下去了大家已經看不下去了我現在接下來等著看全面測查是查真的還是查假的不要等到半年以後我們在這個地方再問一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3894.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3912.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
你的問題還是 你的答案還是一樣檢察官依照證據有證據到哪裡就辦到哪裡 持續偵辦當中什麼時候會辦出來不知道會慢慢辦 繼續辦大家等著看好 謝謝好 謝謝那現在我們請莊瑞雄委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3926.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3934.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
好謝謝主席有請我們陸委會梁副主委麻煩梁副主委那個移民署啊來齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3943.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3964.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
廉政部移民署副署長副主委還有副署長好我想最近你們在清查陸配的一個資料要求去補交上市中國戶籍的一個公證書這個在社會上也引起了軒然大波 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3964.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3988.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
然後認為說這是不是因為雅雅案才搞出來的一個政治上的一個動作所以我這個地方是不是請副署長你先來做一個說明你們到底這個動作是一個政治上的一個動作或者說向社會大眾來說明一下為什麼突然會有這個動作是 謝委員這事情不是突然在做一直持續在做這是首先先述明的因為兩岸關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3990.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4017.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
是以單一戶籍為有序的一個交流依據所以在民國93年3月1日我們修正了兩岸關係條例的九條第九條之一裡面有規範要求台灣地區人民不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照以避免雙重身份而造成權利異物重疊這個大家知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4017.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4032.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這個大家知道 2004年有這樣的一個規定以後修法的一個目的 本來就是說你不要有雙重國籍 你也不要有雙重的一個身份那可是呢 我規定了以後啊你說要去叫嘛 證明說我已經註銷中國那邊的一個戶籍了 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4042.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4061.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
執行下來以後2004,20到2008又政黨輪替馬英九又幹了八年的總統,然後又到了蔡總統又幹了八年的總統那現在又到了賴總統,現在又開始了這二十年過了,你們說他要交,你們這個事情法律修法以後你們全部都沒有人動 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4062.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4073.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
或者說當初是什麼原因 有的時候越來越多你現在怎麼辦 按照法律的規定說你如果沒有補銷的話你會把他的整個身份給註銷的你趕快註銷你真的趕快註銷 來來來 副主委 梁文傑副主委法律規定 副署長說的是有 單一而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4084.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4108.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
真的敢做這樣 不敢吧這個如果是依法行政的話根據我們九條之一的規定就是當以2004年為界如果在2004年以前取得台灣身份的陸配那他必須在六個月之內繳回他取消大陸身份的證明文件否則就會註銷台灣的身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4109.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4136.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那這個是九條之一的明確規定這沒有解釋的空間只是說這個九條之一從2004年到現在已經有20年的時間這20年的時間過去據我知道應該就是說如果有人檢舉說他沒有腳如果有人檢舉說他沒有腳那移民署會採取動作但是現在就是屬於一個比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4140.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4164.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
根據我們的資料做一個比較全面性的查查跟了解那我請教副組長閉角沒有的話就是要註銷副組長講的是說有人檢舉的話就要依法行政那這20年來有沒有任何一件被你們註銷的有因為檢舉不註銷因為這樣的一個原因沒有繳交被註銷的 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4169.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4196.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
有676人676個那你現在還有1萬多個你怎麼辦你現在我在看你現在給的三種辦法看起來是有的選在我看來每一條都行不通每一條都行不通為什麼這樣講呢你說去海基會去申請副本但是當年也不是每一個人都是有走海基會的一個流程那你第二個說你親自到中國去辦聲明然後去公證 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4198.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4208.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
這個講得很輕鬆啦有些人根本其實也未必敢回去有政治風險的問題身為敏感的話你叫他回去這個也有點強人所難第三個說拜託親戚來幫忙拜託聽起來聽起來覺得很有道理每一個省規定不一樣有的會刁難有的可能會方便一點好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4219.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4231.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那你這三條路看起來你說依法行政可是你事實上把人全部都卡在原地那你當事人怎麼辦我的意思就是說移民署你要去正視這個問題你這個補件不是問題那問題是上面這三種方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4236.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4260.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我看都不切實際那是不是可以重新盤點一下替代方案就是說有沒有可能啊你針對說這些早年來台已經定居多年而且這個修法已經20年了嘛那生活比較穩定的這類的一個族群你去設立特別的條款或者去簡化它的一個審查的一個機制比如說你去設置一個信賴保護條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4261.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4289.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
對於居住一定年限以上的那沒有違法紀錄的那是否可以用切解或其他的方式來做一個處理啦那不然喔你沒完沒了啦副主委跟你講說法律實的沒有解釋的空間我也不曉得這20年到底出了什麼狀況啊為什麼大家也不去執行是哪一個署長 你的嫁給他 說那賣 那賠給民間 民衝的都有可能 都有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4290.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4305.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這情勢總會有所變遷可是放在那邊的一個問題的話法律在這裡那你說又撤銷到六百多個那其他人怎麼辦那如果有人嫌棄的咧看那個人不算嫌棄那個人嫌棄就算衰啊大陸出米加米又不大事那你怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4307.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4331.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
報告委員 依據我們的統計 目前歷年來 獲准在台定居的陸配約有14萬餘人那我們清查的結果 多數已經繳付上司原籍的證明現在你還有多少沒有還有1萬多所以我在跟你講說 你這是走不出的三條路嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4332.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4346.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
你沒有辦法處理那些人我們會針對這些尚未繳交上資源及證明文件的或許他可能有因為前陣子的疫情或者他個人的因素比方說他的健康狀態身體 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4349.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4375.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
這個都早就該做的啦早就該做的事我現在跟你講說好啦你這些都通知他的你也都依法行政的還是沒有我是在跟你講這個我們現在也跟委員報告我們現在的原因就是說如果民眾有無法實際上克服的這個困難沒有辦法順利取得所謂上司原籍證明的文件那移民署設有一個服務的電子信箱然後呢我們22個服務站 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4377.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4398.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
也多開放讓這些民眾來反映說他的個案的問題結論還是沒有怎麼辦我們來研商如何來尋求一個合理妥適的一個解決方案你跟我說一波也沒辦法換我了報告委員其實我們陸委會跟移民署最近都接到很多的陳情電話 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4400.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4428.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那有些的說他沒有辦法回去拿的理由我們聽起來是比較相對合理但是有些其實並不是那麼合理所以這些陳情的理由五花八門所以最後我們會跟移民署一起會商然後在哪些情況之下我們會認為說他的陳情是有理由的哪些是沒有理由的那這個我們都會來個別的進行幫忙謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4430.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4436.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
好 所以其實九條一其實沒有解釋的空間沒有交其實就是撤銷可是你經過了這20年 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4438.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4459.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
你沒有去做的話 剩下這1萬多個 我們確實政府有責任你也必須啊 這個確實用智慧把這個問題給處理掉了 好不好好 謝謝時間先暫停 那我現在再請我們文傑副主委請留步 國安局副局長好 麻煩副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4469.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4489.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我來請教兩位啦,就是說最近溫婕副主委應該知道台灣有一個很有名的歌手Tank那寫了一些80年代的人很喜歡,八年級生很喜歡聽的一些歌啦像比如說專屬的天使啦,給我你的愛啦但是那因為遺傳心臟病,那不得不淡出這個演藝圈 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4490.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4505.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那有嘗試重出歌壇但是也不理想他在去年的11月在中國完成的心肝這個同期的移植手術那前兩天他在個人的社群平台裡面表示感謝祖國然後並稱台灣這邊是一個台灣省這個聽起來其實有時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4511.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4528.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
心裡頭還是一般人聽了還是怪怪的但是一個需要器官移植沒有去移植他必須要可能生命會喪失的人對他來講的話在這個節骨炎裡面叫他做些什麼我相信他都會去負荷可是問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4530.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4558.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
從人道上來看的話這些都很正常可是在醫療上是不是讓這個統戰在醫療中無聲這樣的蔓延這個也值得去思考的問題那其實過去台灣我們也不擔心什麼叫醫療統戰因為我們這邊實在是我們的健保制度還有醫療的一個水準都非常的高可是我們台灣需要器官移植的人他就說你知不知道台獨有多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4561.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4589.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
各位報告這個數據我們沒有掌握等待器官移植一萬一千人這一萬一千人裡面如果說叫我叫一般叫這些人為了他的生命去唱一首奪這個盆墨整個中國共產黨甚至於更更來壓抑我們自己的台灣中華民國他會做 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4590.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4609.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
這人之常情 我認為他會做 他要活命嘛他要活命嘛 所以人道之間 這個也是很困難可是共產國家他這個器官的來源 這確實不透明這是很大的一個問題 那你接受了這個器官移植以後我相信絕大多數人會接受統戰 這叫人性 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4611.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4617.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那這些怎麼辦啊 換成你們的大人好了啦 也說你們的比較不好意思 我們旁邊的人 我們好朋友 他是大人 還是他自己要換器官禮職 他說你跟我說一下台灣剩餘是在外賣 你跟我說我共產黨不好 這樣你也做不夠 這樣不好給你換 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4629.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4645.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
所以在死亡的面前,其實人都很渺小過去我們不怕,可是現在一萬一千多人,這你顧不顧得了? |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4650.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4679.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
郭文貴報告 那個如果我們國安單位大概都是以收集相關的一個情緒那你們沒辦法 我要跟你們說明一下碰到這種狀況這個立場不同的人會很生氣那我相信那一萬一千件以後還是會很多這個真的是醫療統戰這個它就會無聲這樣一直蔓延下去蔓延下去所以你說國安 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4681.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4691.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
帽子很大,可是碰到這種人性,你也很困難你也沒辦法,兩手一攤,你說我們再來研議,你能這樣嗎?有辦法嗎?這個是一個議題啦,也非常謝謝委員點出來了這相信,面臨到這個問題,我相信我們會尋求一個研議一個方式來處理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4709.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4718.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好 兩位請為那個召委 抱歉最後再給我一個一分鐘的時間我請我們保護部部長還有司法院 今天廳長有來今天廳長有來 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4726.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4745.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
委員早我來請教最後一個問題啦就沒有問一下對不起趙委員因為趙委員今天開了這樣的一個題目就是說我們這個言論自由是在司法實務中是不是真正存在他的界線在哪裡誰說的算其實本席的立場很簡單啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4745.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4757.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
就是說言論自由當然在但問題是說他的界限啊不會是吳宗憲講的算不會我鍾愛雄講的算也不會法國部長講的算或者高官講的算那其實啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4758.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4783.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我們更講說不會是阿貓阿狗講的算那就是說啊 你去看看大法官 你去看看法律它的一個規範到最後都是要回歸到這裡嘛那我要請教的就是說 其實我們從四字在509號在講新聞自由 445號重新回溯去看集會遊行避免言論的審查的自由還有四字617號 這一些其實都是在講言論自由那 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4784.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4804.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
今天本席不打算來重複論述這一些啦 但請教兩位就是說就是言論自由跟國安發生衝突的時候 我們司法跟檢查體系你們要如何去審查 你們審查的標準又是什麼 我這很困難欸那現在大家在看 講到就是說 一個人本來就只有表達他政治上的一個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4807.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4820.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
但是現在社會上碰到一個問題 你說主張統一看起來又是言論的一個自由可是如果講說武力動後 煽動戰爭那這一些來看的話 部長跟廳長你們認為這還單純的言論自由嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4826.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4849.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
這不事實上這確實是一個問題那4445跟644其實有跨一條線他說有明顯跟立即的一個危險的一個原則那另外最高法院109年台商是3695號刑事判決也是揭示說有明顯的立即危險原則但我想這是一個原則一個揭示那是不是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4850.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4865.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
要來再做一個明確立法來做一個定義那我想我們這邊我們會納入秀法的一個參考我的意思就是說你政府如果要對於人民的政治主張你要去做處罰的話這要採非常嚴格的標準法律你要非常的一個明確啦我剛剛為什麼要提出這樣子的問題出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4874.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4899.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
就是說你以後碰到這些問題很多人在網路上一定會去做一個發表然後甚至於你現在沒有去做處理的話那你以後碰到的問題還會必須更多那所以本席提出具體的一個建議就是說你針對鼓吹戰爭宣傳你們要決定的很明確你如果稍微跟著鼓吹 稍微跟著戰爭 稍微跟著宣傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4900.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4929.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
你總是要把那個定義把它給界定清楚啊你沒界定清楚的話法律又不明確啊不明確你說我不曉得該怎麼處罰那你就繼續蔓延那每一次發生這種事情的時候社會上大家又來討論法律明確性啊這個明確性的一個原則啊那本來就是法律人的一個要求社會大眾也這樣一個要求可是我們也擔心你沒有去講清楚的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4929.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4952.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
變成說扯到國安大家變成對老百姓產生一個寒蟬效應這也不對啊這也不對啊所以我建議我講到跌倒了你看這個議題多重要談到這個議題就馬上這個是地震喔有喔是叫我不要問啊 趙偉這樣叫我不要問啊趙偉說叫我繼續啦今天喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4959.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4960.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
你如果說你模糊 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4961.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4989.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
一天模糊那接下來要審查來來去去你會變成一種到最後後天你會變成噤聲啦這個其實都不是一個民主國家的一個正常的一個常態啦所以我要請教的就是說我們法務部跟司法院這個地方那是不是應該啊 應該啊強化法律的一個明確性啊避免行政跟司法機關的過度的一個解釋聽著 我來請教你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4992.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5006.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
跟委員報告其實大法官也已經明確指出不是所有的言論都受到保障是還是可以用法律來加以限制的那只是需要符合比例原則跟明確性原則那至於怎麼樣來限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5007.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5024.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
就是個別實體法的規範必須要符合這樣一個原則那司法院是站在最後是適用法律來審查這些法規範來加以在個案中適用所以我們尊重主管機關的立法決定跟貴院的立法形成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5025.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5043.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
自由這樣Canton共我的主張很簡單雖然我是執政黨的一個立委但是我認為審查政治的一個言論是要以民主價值來當核心而不是以國安的藉口來壓縮空間所以就必須法律讓他非常的一個明確你法律沒有明確的話沒完沒了沒完沒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5044.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5069.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
所以我在這邊期許我們司法院 我們法務部 甚至於我們跟人權委員會這個地方我們趕快去做一個合作 推動整個制度的改革跟立法的一個精進否則法律不明確 大家開始都灰了 造成司法機關動輒得咎 開始辦一個案子 當成執政黨的一個打手這對你們也不好啊 好不好 這樣最基本的要求可以做到吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5071.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5095.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
謝謝委員 贊成委員意見 我們當作修化的重要參考我覺得你不贊成也不行 一個人這樣做 這是最基本的常識 好不好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝莊委員莊委員 後面非常感動而且認同 後面這一段好 謝謝喔 那下一位我們請林倩綺委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5105.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5128.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
好 謝謝主席張蕊在本席進行質詢之前本席想要做一個會議詢問因為本席看到今天出席的名單那在幾個這個部會有好多位應該您這邊邀的主管都請假好像司法院應該出席的副秘書長還有NCC國家通訊委員會的主秘也請假然後速發部的這個部長也請假教育部的部長也請假 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5133.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5157.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
大陸委員會的主委也請假內政部移民署的署長也請假國安局的局長也請假那我可以了解一下這是什麼樣一個狀況嗎他們各自都是有提就是說另有公務像那個陳王秘書長他是說有會議要主持然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5162.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5190.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
看一下那個NCC的主委他是只有寫一個因公其他的公務那速發部他他也是說只有另有要公然後移民署的中署長是要參加外交國防委員會的會議他應該是在另外一個委員會然後教育部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5192.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5215.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
政部長他也是說另有公務然後陸委會他也是寫另有公務蔡局長他是在國防外交委員會在另外一個委員會所以之後我們會再跟他反映因為今天確實非常多人說沒有辦法過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5216.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5245.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那如果說另有要工的話那我們在我會請助理去了解一下到底是什麼樣的事情那之後如果有其他會議的話我想我會跟他們的聯絡人先大家先說明清楚如果有什麼問題那提早跟我們說讓我們了解一下或看有沒有辦法協助他們去排除他們所謂另有要工尤其是今天的今天的議題在我個人認為我看到那麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5246.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5269.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這個政務官不敢來我想我心裡大概也是有底啦因為畢竟這個問題是比較尖銳一點那我想說好如果你有問題等一下再提出來我先沒關係OK好謝謝謝謝你對我的微笑那所以說我想說我今天大概看到這樣的結果我想我心裡也有底啦那沒關係我們想說之後如果有必要那我們再請 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5272.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5279.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
這幾位部長來就同樣一個議題去發表意見我想我目前的想法是這樣不知道我的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5281.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5307.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
好的 謝謝主席因為我也很少看到在過去的經驗裡面很少看到應該來的這個部會首長一整列這個請假所以有一些想要理性溝通的東西我覺得今天我可能要做一個很大的調整那也希望召委未來也有機會就針對這個議題那相關的部會我覺得這是一個溝通的平台所以如果可以的話那這些請假的應來的這個相關的首長那是不是請這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5310.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5337.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
跟委員說明一下一直到今天為止其實我並不知道會有那麼多部長請假我會知道有幾位沒有錯但是並不知道那麼多我說我之後可能會跟聯絡人討論一下就是說我們是不是將來有這個狀況能夠及早讓我們知道我們也讓各個委員知道這個狀況所以我們想要部長另有要工不是不行啦但是讓我們知道一下狀況然後我們可以比較好調配 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5340.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5365.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
謝謝趙偉 剛剛因為這個很多令有藥工或在其他的委員會那我想這個我就尊重趙偉的一個權責謝謝 謝謝趙偉所以今天大概有些東西我就做一些調整不過 好 那我就現在開始那當然今天今天的這個議題雖然有些人認為說很敏感可是我覺得正好藉這個機會大家可以做一些溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5365.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5392.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那原本我也是很期待這個副秘書長或者是司法院的跟法務部我們藉這個平台可以做一些對話但是竟然沒有我就要不然我一開始還是先請這個我們司法院的代表然後其實本來是主要是司法院那法務部長既然在這邊也很感謝那是不是也請您這邊我們一起來討論一下這件事但是我的重點麻煩廳長還有部長對基本上是在這個司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5394.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5416.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
當然今天的議題就是言論自由的邊界當然我相信大家在整個社會氛圍都知道其實這就跟我們最近社會上幾件大事以民眾的觀點來講看起來很多事情會蠻難理解的當然就會有一些想像所以基本上就是言論自由的邊界還有這就關係到兩岸的和平 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5418.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5433.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
當然這其實也看到了一個政策的轉變但是這個政策轉變其實觸及了台灣作為一個自由民主社會制度的根基不僅讓我們感覺到說當國家以國安為名在干預言論 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5434.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5457.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
以敵我為界在處理兩岸關係的時候那民主的核心感覺上已經面臨了侵蝕的風險所以我希望透過今天能夠有一些制度性的檢討那但是因為有一些首長不在所以我就簡化某一些我們應該在這邊談的這個內容所以我們都知道幾個案件嘛那個被驅逐回去的這個陸配 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5459.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5484.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
還有受大陸那邊電視台訪問的教育人員我們講歐老師好了還有中研院院士有許多的學者也針對言論自由覺得政府在做思想審查這樣子的議題也開了一些會議來讓大家知道所以現在讓我們擔憂整個社會是不是因為不小心講錯話就會失去工作資格或居留權 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5485.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5504.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那法務部長我其實在剛開始也跟您說我這邊代表一個民眾的觀點我不希望今天在這個階段先落入了一個法條的討論所以民眾的觀點是我這邊希望能夠對話的所以這個最近的事件讓我們感覺到國家權力已經介入了這個政治言論 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5505.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5526.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
然後整個制度有沒有開始偏離自由民主的憲政軌道當國家機器以國家為名但事實上在做意識形態為實的這樣一個鬥爭的時候逐漸擴張對言論的干預那這是我們今天提出質疑很重要的一點好 那時間關係我這邊提出對司法院提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5527.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5542.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
一些想法你們剛才在講說你們很多東西尊重主管機關的裁決這就像剛才莊委員有講的你們這樣會讓人家感覺標準不一所以我期待司法院這邊能夠更積極作為這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5543.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5564.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
第二個部分是這一次陸配的事件我想問的是我拿聯合國代人權宣言委員會第34號的一般性意見其中有的內容要件跟我們有點憲法這邊有點接近就是明確性必要性比例性你們剛才也講到直接及 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5565.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5589.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
直接且及時的威脅那請問這幾個案例你們可以跟我們回應到底什麼東西是直接與及時的威脅嗎還有在過程當中做出處分前的整個程序保障有真正被落實嗎所以處分前有經過司法審查或者是給予當事人的程序保障或者是你國家有舉證 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5590.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5595.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
他們是如何危害及時而且事實上會影響的證據嗎這個不知道廳長這邊可以給一些回應嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5604.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5627.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
謝謝委員的垂詢我想首先先澄清一下就是我剛才回應莊委員的就是尊重各機關的這個立法的職權是基於是因為大法官是說其實言論自由不是毫無限制的是可以以法律加以限制的那我想剛才莊委員就說那這個法律的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5630.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5640.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
法律的條件或法律的標準在哪裡這個當然就是他剛才給你們的建議但是我想這幾個事件你們在作出處分前的程序保障呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5641.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5661.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那跟委員報告就是說那其實這一些怎麼樣以法律來在法律裡面來加以規範那這是屬於實體法的事項那現在行政機關就是那本席不希望今天落入法條或法律或者是法律邏輯上的一個討論立法原則的討論那對人民來講它就是生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5664.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5691.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
所以請你們積極的作為去了解這樣子的個案是不是在比例原則上程序上有符合相對的公義嗎這是當然的那不過跟委員報告就是目前委員剛才提到的雅雅案他的本案我沒有特別指出來好幾個這個中配案我不希望又個案然後又法條我今天要講的是整個社會已經被這種你們法律人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5692.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5717.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
隨意的解釋然後甚至還有某一些實際上的行為已經感到非常的焦慮所以本席在這邊提出來是司法院可不可以請你們可不可以更積極的作為而不是靜觀其變而已好嗎因為今天我們期待秘書長 副秘書長請假所以廳長請你把這樣一個概念是不是可以回去做個轉告 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5718.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5740.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
當然委員追尋的事我們一定會回去轉告不過還是想要說明一下因為剛才其實幾位委員這邊有提到所謂你們的回應也有談到司法救濟可是他都被錢送回國了那請問司法救濟過程何在這個是我剛才所提到的我剛才所提到的所以請你們做個思考從民眾的觀點好不好 從民眾的觀點好 謝謝部長還有這個廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5745.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5753.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那廳長就麻煩您把這個概念回去做一個討論好那接下來今天我想接下來可不可以請一下那個陸委會副主委麻煩副主委副主委您好我想過去就本席這邊所知道的那我們在對大陸的政策其實本來就 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5772.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5788.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
充滿爭議那過往的這個經驗大部分的幾個政府都以擱置爭議然後來尋求共識為基本路線但是近期我們感覺這個政府不知道是不是想要創造一個這個政府的特性 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5789.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5808.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
讓我們感覺到不斷的在激化統獨的對立而且透過輿論的審判和行政的懲處來建構所謂政治正確的這個標準塑造只有一種聲音的政治環境那麼這個其實讓人也有感覺好像在藉此獲取一些選舉的紅利 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5810.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5824.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這樣子的操作手法其實跟所謂的威權時期有一點像你不覺得這樣好像有點破壞民主的精神也會讓整個憲政機關失去民眾的信賴本席在這邊提出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5825.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5841.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我們可不可以透過交流來找出一個最好的避戰方式本席認為多做交流是最好的避戰方式最近經常在矛盾計畫當中那我們就看到許多國安政策的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5842.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5869.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
例如反滲透法中你們把中國界定成一個境外的敵對勢力然後又恢復了軍事審判軍事軍閥審判還有國防預算又要提高這其實一直有一種氛圍讓大家感覺到我們好像快要面對戰爭我是不是可以建議陸委會你們可不可以考量讓戰略模糊 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5870.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5878.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
來導引區域的穩定你們一定要這樣子壁壘分明嗎讓大家一直普遍活在恐懼的焦慮當中嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5883.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5911.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
是 其實委員我們對陸委會來講我們長期在兩岸交流的工作還有兩岸協商等等這些其實是我們陸委會的職長但是我們也必須強調陸委會還有一塊就是說還有一塊很重要的工作就是對於中共的滲透統戰等等的作為我們是必須想辦法去防堵的這個是我們陸委會的工作之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5911.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5934.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
所以你們現在決定強化這一塊然後讓全民跟著你們在這一塊周旋嗎兩岸這30年來有交流但是也有滲透也有統戰都有那現在的話我們這幾年看到的是這個滲透統戰的威脅越來越大而且往往是隨著交流而來的滲透跟統戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5935.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5950.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
所以這個對於國內的這個安全來說的話當然是必須要強化跟國務委員報告譬如說自由之家他在評比台灣的這個言論自由跟心言自由的時候他指出台灣對於中共的很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5951.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5969.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
策略跟作為實際上是令人這個防堵的這個作為不夠令人憂心所以自由之家他是把台灣列為最這個亞洲僅次於日本的新聞自由的國家但是他覺得台灣對中共防堵的不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5970.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5996.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
對 本席要談的是這個是你們所謂的專業對中共的防堵但是你們目前提出來的政策已經讓整個社會感覺到非常的焦慮本席這邊就提出來一個建議啦英國的戰略學者Barry Bouson談到說當一個相對弱勢的國家想要藉由軍事化追求安全的時候會造成臨近強權的安全焦慮結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5998.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6012.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
導致強化區域衝突的一個風險這種安全困境就是我們目前所面臨的核心風險本席在這邊語重心長的對你們提出建議你們或許有認為交流所帶來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6014.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6036.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
統戰的困境但是你們選擇的方式跟做法已經導致整個社會的不安所以有許多這一些個案讓大家看不懂也牽引到本席剛才所談的那在程序正義上或者是對個人人權的保障上已經讓人感到有不公平的現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6036.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6047.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
所以本席在這邊對你提出相關的一個建議所以你們專業上碰到的問題本席不希望全民一起陪進去讓社會處在一種焦慮的狀況當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6049.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6071.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我們會在執行相關工作的時候一定對於人權的保障跟程序性的保障所以本行在這邊作為一個人民的出口所以必須要提醒你們現在真的是導引了現在這樣的狀況那請陸委會再做一些檢討那我還是建議多做交流那至於交流後面碰到的細節 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6072.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6092.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
應該是你們陸委會專業要處理的問題是好 謝謝最後很短的時間我可不可以提一個那個司法人員我還是請一下廳長這個還是就請您把這個相關的訊息帶回去那後續如果還有機會我還是希望能夠聽到這個回應那可以請您上來一下大概一分鐘好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6093.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6122.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
本席這邊對於司法人員的過勞的問題我簡單講就是說其實目前的工作量很大本席這邊有一個相關的調查發現你們的離職率也蠻高的就是檢察官、書記官還有司法人員的相關法官大家評價很高但是對於流動性就是離職率高也是一個很大的問題但是本席實際的了解也就是說你們其實loading也很重 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6123.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6144.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
但是呢人數又沒有辦法擴大那你是不是可以針對這個部分跟本席做一個回應那後續有機會本席這邊也要再跟您確認目前這個部分演繹的如何好那最後一個問題是希望你們能夠看書面報告或者是來跟本席這邊回應一下也就是那個有關於我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6146.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6164.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
裁判費收費標準雖然很長時間沒有做調整但是呢你們在這個應該去年吧幾年前的調整一下子調的讓人家覺得很難理解就是那個訴訟費那這個挑戰你自己回去看一下這個比例你們那個訴訟費的調整現在有到了3%或者是已經超過50%這個您這邊有了解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6173.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6198.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
你們不太了解這個部分就民眾訴訟權會因為這個訴訟費突然間你們去年有一個行政命令然後調整的這個額度對一般大眾50%這是很高的您對這個問題不了解所以是不是會後針對這個訴訟額度的這個提高你們有分階段分層次但是對於一般大眾影響是最大的你們幾乎調了50% |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6200.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6213.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
所以請你就這個問題 惠後給本席一個相關的報告或是來跟本席這邊做回應 好不好好的 美女 再麻煩照委員的要求處理那下一位我們請王益川委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6227.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6232.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
主席 我們請教育部陸委會跟移民署好 麻煩三位上台好 首先 先恭喜 感謝這個我們陸委會 移民署你們最近幹的大事都是對的台灣人民都聽你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6256.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6260.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我們稍微仔細講講 哇 現在這陸委會叫移民署 這麼強的台灣人這麼強的處理台灣 叫中國的問題 兩個 先給你們感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6270.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6278.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
教育部次長,請問最近美國國務卿魯比歐外國核心要去美國討論要辦簽證,說要開始啟動社群言論的審查,你有沒有掌握這個訊息? |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6291.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6316.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
有看到報導,但是不清楚,詳細的內容你這樣沒認真,我早上睡就打,你都沒認真看他們就通令他們在美國的各外館美國在各地的外館,如果那些國家的核心要來美國申請學生簽證要對他的這一些過去的一些主張啊只要危害到美國,應該是美國利益啦他就會有一些心災啦就是我們台灣剛好在開始啟動這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6319.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6334.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這部分我們有涉及到國安或者是其他的那個陸委會或國安單位他們那邊會先審查會先審查對如果來申請要來做教育譬如教育文化交流的時候會先經過那邊來審查好那既然有審查那陸委會你們會怎麼審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6339.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6365.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
如果委員講的是學生的部分學生的部分我們目前對學生的部分確實是沒有我們是對於來交流的學者或是教育界或是文化界的人士我們會review他的過去的言論跟一些立場包括有沒有矮化台灣的地位等等但是對學生的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6366.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6376.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
目前確實是沒有所以是入台症的部分就對了對就是短期來交流的對沒錯那學生沒有學生沒有那你認為學生該不該審查好這題太難了你回答他先看看謝謝委員提示我們會去適合這個問題第二個你們有沒有發現有職業學生職業學生過去確實有有喔過去確實有存在有發現沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6396.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6408.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
有發現?有查到?要請他們回去嗎?過去確實有這樣的例子要請他們回去嗎?只要我們有發現,都會請他們回去你們有發現嗎?過去有例子你講得很保守 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6413.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6432.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那接下來 一樣就是說如果這一個不管是中國學生 外國人都一樣 教育部如果有這些人就對了 要來申請學生簽證來台灣要在社群裡面 每天都要發 台灣是中國的一部分啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6434.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6453.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
台灣是中國一部分,不然就像上次那些中國職業學生來台灣交流罵那些基金會那些什麼中國台灣隊、中國台北隊,這種的這個核心啊,像這種的像這種的喔,理政委啦,或是你們對於研究看來像這種的喔,要申請來台灣打車,過去不要來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6457.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6477.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
他的言論如果涉及矮化台灣有涉及到國安的問題我們也一樣會請那個外交啦或者是陸委會這邊來做一個審查就是說他們這樣的言論是否適宜來訪這部分是有一些管制的好我說這事情會越來越嚴重會越來越嚴重因為一定會職業學生的啦就訓練好才會來啦來這裡做統戰的啦第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6485.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6508.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
市長 教育部市長 你知不知道去年 一整年 台灣的學生被推到中國交流的多少團 多少人 你知道嗎目前 詳細的資料他都有登錄啦 有一個登錄平台那那個詳細的資料 我這邊這事情很嚴重的今天一個暑假 應該差不多200團有啦暑假喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6512.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6533.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
台灣的阿新喔 希望大氣中 這樣統戰我們兩霸團喔來 梁副主委喔 來我們台灣的阿新去那裡交流啊 去那裡坐桌子 叫人吃飯 開會啦各式各樣的民意啦 人家要跟我們統戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6535.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6544.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我們有一個高雄立刻起身說 別吃了 我們回家 搞什麼東西我們是來讓你們統戰的 我們是來交流的 有人這樣嗎?沒有 我沒有聽過那都聽到之後才回來聽到之後 這個有高雄歡迎議會嗎?沒有聽過沒有聽過 還繼續去?對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6556.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6574.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
繼續我們陸委會都不歡迎我應該這樣講就是說中國各個各級台辦他都有KPI就是一年要花多少預算然後要拉台灣多少青年學生到他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6575.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6590.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
譬如說湖北省或是上海或是什麼每一個地方它都有這樣的KPI要拉多少人去對 然後就到我們的高中大學嘛到台灣的高中大學那通常都不是透過校方而是透過學校裡面的某一個老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6592.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6600.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那老師有嚴重喔 人家是要用社團 用協會 還有那老師直接打給我開課總之我如果要做一段期的 通識課 要做一段期那去到那裡說教多少 教多少 教不到的 教不到就說 啊 那就有台商出錢啦所以同學喔 那台商對我們很好 所以你們基本也不用教那麼多啦 有這種的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6614.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6639.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
當然有啊 現在譬如說就是你只要出機票費 然後落地時數全包然後還有一些什麼阿這你都沒有管喔 這要用通來通去 你都沒有管這個我們是長期都有在注意那我們會 如果有必要的話我們就會動用兩岸關係條例33條之一的合作行為或是其他的如果有涉及幫中共發展組織的話 那個就是用反滲透法 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6641.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6646.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
第三個重點 台灣隊到冠軍進入決賽 中國團 中國核心 通緝記者說就是他要說中國台灣隊怎麼越來越厲害 那幾個 兩天可以來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6662.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6682.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我們都有對於相關人士的發言但我們會有註記註記意思就是說,當你想要再進來台灣的時候我們在審查的過程之中,我們就會把你過去的言行給考慮進去沒有啦,你就直接...那新聞就不可以再來,還要審查,還要這麼狠,還要審查中國本宮說明,我們一眾要吃豆腐,要去中國台灣隊黨是在中國台灣隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6690.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6714.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
這個委員你放心,我們所謂的註記審查就是很嚴厲的審查好啦,我看你們都為了兩岸和諧,我知道啦,可是你們這次的手法怎麼也不錯啦好來,第三,我們現在要捏,這可能移民署齁,這中國人要捏中華民國的新聞情啦是現在有一些那些算是在倒空的,說那邊六年,該做四年啦是 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6717.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6727.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我們的政府現在有講喔 我們現在境外敵對勢力就一共而已 叫中國了結果他們可以捏新穩定的連線是最大的外南馬來西亞越來越久 他們馬來西亞外南 什麼泰國 黑米我們的境外敵對勢力喔 他們要捏我們的新穩定 老闆境外敵對勢力要捏新穩定 現在最低他們是在爭笑的喔 在你們幾天啊 什麼幾天啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6747.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6756.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
沒有 事實上跟委員報告由8年轉到6年 這個也都是經過那時候所有的一個修法 陸委會 我們跟陸委會好 現在情勢變更了是 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6759.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6775.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
什麼改六改四 改到十啦 改到四 改回去 改回去十世界各國要來台灣捏新婚情的 都比照我們的外匯業 境外敵對勢力 要捏我們的新婚情 最低電到頭照 這樣對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6780.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6790.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
你是不是在驚訝我們會跟陸委會 因為這是兩岸關係條例所規定的那我想委員的指導 我們會跟陸委會陸委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6793.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6820.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
你過去要創一個最大的,中國人創最大的唯一境外敵對勢力,只有中華民國身份證是全世界最要來,只有中華民國身份證的外國人,期限最大的我應該跟委員報告一下就是說外國人他其實是四到八年,實際上是四年到八年你不要這樣講,人四年了嗎,你告訴我那大陸人是四年到六年他們有四年了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6821.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6848.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那實際上外國人不可能四年就拿到不可能四年就拿到所以其實確實因為我們兩岸之間特殊的關係那從這個兩岸人民條例1992年到現在其實中間經過很多次的政黨輪替那很多的規定老實講就是在那個年代它有它的道理但是現在未必有道理最後我問一個問題要申請入台證 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6850.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6872.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
申請來台一親的這種居留證要申請中華民國身份證這三個證有哪幾個他要宣誓效忠中華民國以陸配來說沒有以陸配來說都沒有中國人要來納中華民國身份證要宣誓效忠中華民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6873.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6891.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
沒有 目前的制度沒有這個部分我們有看到很多立委提出來要修法的工作所以我們覺得這個部分如果委員們的討論有取得共識我們也支持你啦 你在煮湯啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6893.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6913.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
你要中華民國身份證,不免宣誓效忠中華民國先來說我是中國人,我國家是中華人民共和國我就是因為我拿中華民國身份證而已,我沒有認同你啦,我就是中國人啦中華人民共和國他就比較好人啦我沒有認同你中華民國,我就是要拿那張啦,這就不太合理啦這你也比較主動的,我們這個立法院喔,一大堆在那裡倒空的喔,那群都不會有這個行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6922.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6947.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
國家要有台獨 國家要有台獨 台灣人在看的是台獨美國這沒辦法 美國這大罷免跟我說處理事情嘛啊 可是我們的政府要有台獨啊我們的政府這條 我在講什麼四年 八年 六年最早啦 你不要說境外敵對最早你也叫各國的都一樣要全世界 台灣唯一的境外敵對勢力你要中外民國新聞局 你要最快 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6949.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6968.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
現在還要逼四年 要修啊 你要四年還不用效忠中華民國好 謝謝委員提醒 這個部分我們會去做制度上的檢討好 加油啦 這次陸委會叫移民署表現得很好繼續加油 我要跟你們講一件事你們要緊表態 加油 臨時再回到我再問一遍好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6977 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6977.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
主席好 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6998.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7024.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我應該是要等一下要請這個我們司法院的列席代表不過今天我們這個來是我們行政訴訟的這個懲戒廳廳長那可能跟我們今天主題,我盡量但是因為是司法院有一些牽涉司法院的選擇還是要等一下請這個我們陳廳長上台,等一下那這個我想我們今天的主題我們今天主題列的我們這個主題叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7027.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7047.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
這個言論自由不在,界限誰說了算,國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界,進行專題報告這個想法,我想這個,它大概就是,其實它有兩個層次第一個就是說,在我國現在的制度裡面,言論自由的界限在哪裡,這是第一個層次的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7048.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7067.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
第二個是說第二個層次是國家介入特定的政治言論它的界限在哪裡它其實是兩個層次啦一個是廣泛的言論自由另外一個是說這個國家介入特定政治言論那這個呢這個這個有很多的這個我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7069.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7096.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
主席今天會列這樣子的主題我想應該就是跟這個時事有關要不然為什麼今天不是討論我國宗教自由之界限而是討論言論自由之界限因為主席對於現在的這些時事有一些認為說有一些討論的必要他才會列這個主題所以今天這個主題有很多種討論方式第一種你可以像政論節目一樣的討論你也可以做法學跟學術相當學理上面的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7099.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7119.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那但是這種時事議題你難免你就會牽涉到對於這些政治的評價所以我現在想我們還是先從學理上面來談我盡量希望從學理上來談而不是以政論節目的角度來談那我現在是不是請司法院我們的城廷長麻煩廷長委員好廷長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7127.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7152.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
這個我們有關我國言論自由的界限包括這個國家介入特定政治言論的這個界限言論自由的界限這些東西事實上在我國的法治上面過去的大法官會議解釋跟現在的憲法法庭判決事實上我們是不是沒有討論過這件事情啊我們主席間列這個案子是不是說因為我們過去我們的法治上面都沒有在討論我們言論自由的界限 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7155.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7173.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
委員其實大法官已經做了多號的解釋多號的解釋啦 我的PD上面都有寫啦這個大法官做了無數的對於言論自由界線做了非常多的解釋那我們就學理上面來講我想這個我們學理大家學法律的應該這個都看得懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7175.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7193.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
這個有關言論自由大概就幾個層次的討論一個是事前審查的問題另外還有一些象徵性的言論像焚燒國旗我沒有講話但是我用動作來表達言論這種象徵性言論這兩個大概不在今天討論範圍內再來就是事後審查是一個重點事後審查目前學理上面大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7194.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7218.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
採取就是這個所謂雙軌跟雙接這個理論這個聽講知道吧知道嘛雙軌所謂雙軌就是非針對性言論的內容跟針對言論性的內容就我不是針對言論的內容的問題的言論自由問題例如說我受刑人能不能對外通信我受刑人能不能對外表示什麼就身份他跟內容無關的另外就是跟內容有關的這樣雙軌對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7220.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7233.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那雙軌裡面我們今天討論的大概就是針對言論內容是限制的今天主席所列的這個所謂特定政治言論顯然就是指針對言論的內容那針對言論內容裡面大概學理上面把它分成雙階對不對兩個不同階這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7236.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7263.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
不同階層的言論他的審查到底寬鬆還嚴格是不一樣的對不對一種叫做高價值的言論一種叫做中低價值的言論這個你大概知道吧所謂高價值言論就是什麼呢就像這個有關於政治我們今天列的這個政治、宗教、文學、科學、藝術這高價值的這個要做對於他言論自由限制要比較寬鬆他審查要比較寬鬆 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7267.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7291.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
對於中低價值的言論 什麼叫中低價值的言論 像商業的廣告 商業言論啦毀謗啦 像這個猥褻性言語啦 像仇恨性語言這個都是比較低階 這個要做嚴格的審查 對不對是不是這樣子 廳長這個理論你知道嗎所以一個 在學理上面它分的其實很清楚啊一個是高階的 一個是中低階的啊那我們今天就來看看這個個案啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7292.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7319.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
什麼叫做政治言論什麼叫做仇恨性言論一個是高階的言論自由一個是中低階的言論自由我今天如果說我主張台灣獨立這個是政治的言論對不對這是高階的保護他必須要比較寬鬆我主張台灣獨立這個可以吧但是我今天如果說我主張用暗殺來達成台灣獨立我主張用恐怖攻擊來達成台灣獨立 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7321.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7344.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那這個就不是政治言論了喔這就馬上掉到所謂仇恨性言論對不對對不對好那我今天主張兩岸統一這個是政治言論對不對這個OK這個高階的受比較寬鬆的保護我今天主張學習台灣我主張用武力用戰爭用侵略用暴力 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7346.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7365.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
來達成兩岸統一我主張五統這個就不是政治言論了對不對這跟剛剛一樣他現在就掉進了所謂仇恨性言論了對不對是不是 廷長我剛這樣講對不對這是委員的見解我們尊重一個是政治言論一個是仇恨性言論這是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7367.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7387.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
就像我今天說我想跟你交往這是我的言論自由但是我跟你說你如果不跟我交往我就打你這就不是言論自由了對不對是不是廳長我想跟你交往我可以這樣講嗎我跟任何人都可以這樣講對不對這是言論自由我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7388.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7410.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
你若不跟我交往我就打你這是不是言論自由這當然就不是言論自由了嘛這就是仇恨性的我剛剛講的仇恨性言論了嘛分的這麼清楚所以不要混淆現在這個案子到底是所謂特主席所講的政治言論還是我剛剛講國際公約裡面所講的仇恨性言論這個要分清楚當然啦這個仇恨性言論 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7417.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7443.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
這個仇恨性言論什麼樣限制言論自由都應該要有法律依據啦這個剛剛大家都有講那我國對於仇恨性言論自由的限制有沒有法律依據廷長有沒有法律依據我告訴你因為時間如果按照委員剛剛舉例子那可能像刑法有一些的規範刑法有一些啦齁另外整個普遍的仇恨性言論有 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7445.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7465.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
有關於公民與政治權利國際公約也就是所謂的公正公約我國是立法院通過審議通過實施的對不對是按照公正公約裡面的第20條第一項任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳因應法律禁止之這個是不是跟國內法等同國內法的效力是是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7467.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7488.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
所以在國內現在這個案子我們鼓吹戰爭他就是違反目前的國內法這個是毫無意義的因為公正公約我們還立法了立法了一個公正公約的這個經濟社會文化公約兩公約的施行辦法已經把它國內法化了已經把它國內法化了好我們不要講國內法我們再講國際法我們講國際外國的判例在德國德國在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7496.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7499.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
德國在2020年9月有一個叫做尼克斯 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7501.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7528.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
訴德國的一個案子他去求職結果他求職沒有被錄取原因是因為他在社群媒體上面有一張照片他的後面有一張圖是過去納粹的這個希姆萊親衛隊希姆萊的照片川軍服的照片掛在他後面所以他用這個理由不錄取他結果他訴訟到憲法法庭在德國是連掛個照片都不行納粹照片你比個納粹手勢都不行為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7529.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7544.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
這就是我講的仇恨性言論美國最近2025年1月17他們聯邦最高法院就直接他們就說有關TikTok不賣就禁他不違反憲法沒有違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7545.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7566.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
他的理由是未來現在Ttalk在收集的這些個資會危害到未來如果我們跟中國發生戰爭的時候危害到未來戰爭上面的危險他不是現在立即的危險喔他是針對未來的危險我現在就可以禁止所以這都非常清楚了所以在這次的這個案例 亞亞這個案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7568.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7590.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
我們大家在講 居然還有人跳出來把言論自由針對言論自由把政治性的言論跟醜恨性的言論分不清楚我剛剛講的 我主張台獨是政治性言論我主張用恐怖攻擊實現台獨這不是政治言論我主張統一是政治言論我主張戰爭 武力 學習台灣 武統這個不是政治性言論 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7598.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7606.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
所以我們來看看這次這個案例齁這次這個案例我看一下齁這個網紅齁網紅他在網路上講說大陸武力統一台灣已經不需要其他理由這是他講的他說這個遲遲不如統這是不對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7625.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7643.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
他說希望四川艦隊軍功利第一這就是收復台灣這就是武統啊這就是武統啊現在我請陸委會對不起請回這個廳長請回我請陸委會梁副主委你在上來的時間我闡述一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7645.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7669.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
你在飛機上面講說我要炸毀這台飛機這當然不是言論自由我在集滿人潮的捷運車廂上面說我要殺光捷運所有的乘客這當然不是言論自由我到鄰居家門口說我要放火燒房子這當然不是言論自由那為什麼我到這個國家來說我要武力學習你這個國家變成言論自由呢為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7673.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7698.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
主委這次這案子這三位網紅他們有沒有中華民國的國籍他們有沒有領中華民國身份證他們沒有中華民國的國籍只有居留他們只有居留嘛換句話說第一個我們所討論的層次有關於國民的所有的保障跟他們都還沒有關係對不對他們還不是國民嘛對不對是對他們只是居留許可而已是根據兩岸人權關係條例的居留許可對不對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7700.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7724.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
這就好像住在你家裡的人如果是你兒子你老婆他是家人如果是你朋友從南部上來住在家裡你說可以我可以住你家嗎你說可以那你就是拘留嘛對不對但是你今天是我兒子你來住我家裡那你是家人啊那你今天一個客人你說一個朋友說我來住你家你說好到你客廳以後說我要放火燒你家我要殺光你全家 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7727.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7739.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那我說我沒有打他我只說不好意思我就不讓你你就不要住在我家請你出去這是不是很合理是那我們這一次我們這個撤銷居留許可是不是就是這樣的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7741.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7760.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
對我們來說就是任何人如果他只有居留身份的話所以他實際上並沒有辦法和中華民國國民做到同樣的權利義務沒有錯所以他如果只有居留身份的話那我們就是根據兩岸關係條例處理沒錯我們這次所有都是根據兩岸關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7761.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7770.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
兩岸關係條例上面的規定所做的行政行為根本就不牽涉到言論自由的問題對不對所以我想最後現在這社會是似是而非的這樣的說法這概念這麼清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7783.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7809.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
北一女還貴為北一女的老師說什麼我們把中國視為境外敵對勢力那我們家人住在大陸我的親人住在中國我的親人變成境外敵對勢力講這種沒有常識的講法二次大戰的時候你有去跟蔣介石講說你為什麼對日宣戰我有家人住在日本啊你為什麼把日本變成敵人那我的家人不就變成敵人了毫無常識啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7814.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7839.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
所以這一次這個就是一個照妖鏡這就是海水退了你就知道誰沒有穿褲子在這個時候這次這三個網紅的案子跳出來講言論自由的人請大家就看清楚他們有沒有穿褲子以上好 謝謝那我們先做那個會議的程序宣告稍後再胡適耀委員訓導完畢後休息五分鐘那下一位我們請王宏威委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7847.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7866.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
好謝謝主席主席在那個發言之前我想要做一下譴責就是因為今天呢我們邀請非常多的單位但是呢邀請的首長很多都用請假的方式那有一些當然因為在可能其他的委員會我知道他們有這個業務報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7868.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7886.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那這個就情有可原但是也很多也不曉得為什麼就直接就用請假方式我覺得這對我們司法法治委員會是相當的不尊重這部分一定要這個云以譴責來那個表示我們的意見好那接下來我請我們的移民署今天是是副署長還有陸委會也是副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7901.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7921.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
王委員有關今天有很多人請教這件事情我們剛剛有處理剛剛有委員有提出來那我這邊的意思是說因為有一些人之前也都沒有跟我提那我今天早上才知道那確實有兩位部會首長是在國防外交委員會那邊對我知道有的是其他的他就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7922.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7945.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
給我們的理由就是因公務啦那事實上細節是什麼我們會再了解對因為主席我剛剛就講就是說因為我知道有一些首長他是有在其他的委員會而且事前請假那如果是還臨時性的請假只是說用公務我覺得這是非常非常不尊重我們司法法制委員會而且你要請假你也可以提早來說而不是這樣臨時性的來通知這個我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7949.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7966.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
招委跟主席這是非常非常不禮貌的所以我們當然予以譴責謝謝主席今天的我們的主要的這個題目叫做言論自由事實上過去包含民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7967.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7986.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
非常遵從的鄭南榮先生百分之百的言論自由賴清德總統在選舉的時候也說他支持百分之百的言論自由到了最近呢賴清德總統又去祭拜鄭南榮先生仍然在講百分之百的言論自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7987.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8002.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
但是現在看起來民進黨執政之後這個所謂的百分之百的言論自由這個百分之百它的含水量變得非常非常的高因為它加了很多的前提好 可是今天呢我為什麼來找移民署跟陸委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8005.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8018.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
因為最近這兩天 大家都可以看到不只是網路上的炸鍋 還有我們各個民意代表選民服務我相信包含民進黨的委員因為在你們的選區裡面 在你們的選民裡面也有很多來自於陸配或者陸配的家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8026.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8036.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
特別是最近所去調查的要求來台灣尤其在這次影響最深的就是民國93年之前而且你取得身份證的這些陸配所以可以看到最近其實我們收到的很多的選民陳情是來自於他們的子女是來自於他們子女因為他們到台灣來嫁到台灣來都已經二三十年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8056.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8077.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
結果我們現在呢我們的陸委會跟移民署卻是一個鋪天蓋地的要求已經來台灣二三十年的陸配要求他們在三個月之內必須提出證明在中國大陸已經撤銷戶籍撤銷國籍的相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8081.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8102.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
證明否則的話三個月內就要被除籍就要被除籍所以可以看到陸配的家庭一片哀嚎有很多的子女說今天難道我的媽媽要變成政治人球了嗎我的媽媽來了二三十年她很多的原生家庭可能原生家庭都不在了 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8103.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8126.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那他如何到已經來台灣三十年了然後突然要求他三個月內去拿到這些資料否則你在台灣就被取消戶籍所以我想請問一下移民署跟陸委會我也看到你們昨天也分別的宣布一些補救的措施因為這個實在是我覺得對台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8127.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8135.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
來講台灣真的應該還是很有人道的而且對於陸配的家庭你如果說你今天說什麼以國安調查就是你來台灣可能幾年內那他比較好去取得這些資料可是事實上因為在後來我們的疫情之後這些其實都已經清查過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8147.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8171.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
最先影響最大的一批反而是來台灣二三十年的這些陸配所以我想請問一下陸委會或移民署你們的補救措施是什麼還是說通通只是用個案處理還是某一些程度你們可以用通案的方式去處理不要造成這些陸配家庭他們的大恐慌 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8172.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8195.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
跟委員報告一下 其實根據《兩岸條例9-1》在2004年的修法就是說在2004年修法之前 已經拿到台灣身份的陸配他必須在六個月之內繳回在大陸儲籍的證明否則就是要去除掉台灣的身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8197.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8222.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
現在有發生很多啊他2004年民國93年20幾年前而且那個時候拿到身份證要8年對不對所以他很多都已經來了真的二三十年了當時他拿出來的時候他說他都已經繳過那現在他拿不出來所以我還想說你們現在都是要用個案處理還是有通案處理辦法委員講的沒有錯就是說其實按照法律條文如果要嚴格執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8226.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8241.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
這些都沒有繳的 實際上政府機關就必須要把他台灣的身份去除掉你們二三十年不執行這個法律所以因為有這樣的問題所以我們現在做清查然後給大家時間回去拿其實就是在法律之外三個月之內要繳出來時間合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8253.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8264.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
呃 我覺得我們現在街道他來台灣三十年你讓他三個月內找出來不然的話你就變成政治人球你要讓他淪為政治難民嗎我們現在有街道他的原生家庭可能都不在啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8265.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8286.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
原生家庭在不在跟他有沒有辦法回到那邊的派出所取得文件那是兩回事情就算他家庭不在了他如果能夠回到那邊的派出所取得文件那個還是可以的三個月之內要回去那我們現在的三個月之內要回去他即便臥床了對不對跟委員報告一下他有任何的原因了沒有錯所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8287.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8310.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
任何人任何這個家庭他如果說他覺得他提出說他確實有什麼樣的困難譬如說他說這個當年他的身份證件是從什麼救災總會來幫他申請有特別提到有的已經交給當時的中華救災總會了那這個東西我們都要去了解到底有沒有這回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8311.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8331.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
所以我覺得現在對我們來講的話就是說我們願意讓所有的收到我們通知的這些家庭或是陸配他們提出來說他們有什麼樣的理由是確實有辦法拿回去因為這兩天我知道我剛剛講過其實因為我們其實服務案件是不分藍綠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8332.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8341.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
你能講說陸配只投給在野黨嗎我真的覺得門心自問副主委你也是明代出身你該講你當時的選民沒有陸配會來自陸配家庭嗎今天讓他們雞飛狗跳 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8348.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8356.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
讓他們覺得飽受這些壓力合理嗎你於心何忍我要問的是今天很多的委員通通來找昨天移民署也來我辦公室來做說明我們看很多委員都在急著在處理這些選民服務因為他們非常著急三個月其實很短的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8371.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8396.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
好 所以我才要求再透過這一支諮詢我希望 包含陸委會跟移民署你們應該要有一些通案性的解決老師說 我們在很多有法律的部分比如說我們什麼追稅 即便是確定的欠稅它的追溯期也是15年啊通緝犯可以通緝幾年 對不對你只有30年之前 你要求你給我交出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8397.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8411.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
你覺得合理嗎是不是我們如果在很多的法律上都有一個追溯的期間老實說啦如果他們是共匪他們是共諜潛伏在這邊二三十年你們自己政府都不執法啊剛講說這是依法執行對啊什麼時候定的法呢2004年啊民國93年距離現在多久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8421.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8436.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我說難聽點 這個裡面國民黨執政 民進黨執政 民進黨弱權這個很重要那你們過去九年在睡覺嗎是不是 為什麼要讓老百姓這麼痛苦好 我因為我時間有限 我可不可以請移民署你們有 我知道你們今天也被罵爆了啦 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8439.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8464.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
所以請問移民署有沒有一些相關的一些通案的方式可以去解決呢謝謝委員在這裡先跟委員說明一下其實兩岸分配以來有36萬的大陸配合其中已經獲得在台定居的共有14萬多人那我們經查大多數的人都有繳付上司員籍的證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8465.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8489.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
那目前這個部分沒有繳納的這個部分我們現在大概有多少萬我這裡有好幾萬人一萬出頭那這個部分可能我們也是在想說它是不是疫情的關係或者其他的因素比方說它的健康的因素或者有少數政治風險比方法輪功的 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8490.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8515.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
比方假設這些他們沒有辦法返回中國大陸來辦理我們會就這些個案我們來做處理那民眾如果在實際上有真的無法克服的困難那我們也開一個設有服務的電子信箱還有我們全省有22個服務站都有電話我們也希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8516.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8531.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這些個案他即使來反映那我們針對這些特殊的個案我們會同陸委會跟海基會來嚴處然後尋求一個妥適的解決之道我要講的就是說我們現在各委員辦公室說實在你們也確實 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8532.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8541.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
也一定疲於奔命 但疲於奔命也是應該的 因為大家都碰到我們現在有的委員甚至說 我們大家聯合起來聯合起來 因為我這邊有兩三個 其他委員有兩三個 都有這樣大家聯合起來一起把它說清楚講明白所以我希望我在這邊 為什麼要透過諮詢 我希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8553.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8563.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
移民署還有陸委會能夠延伸一個就是他可以適用是屬於比較通案型的有一些 比如說在什麼樣的狀況之下你可以給予他緩衝的期間比如我剛剛講說有的因為他在臥床啊你讓他怎麼去啊你要讓他怎麼去呢 對不對或者他現在真的就已經沒有辦法他認為他真的原生家不是說你原生家庭啊沒有關係啊反正你就去啊 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8581.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8607.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
不是每一個 這個陸配尤其他可能有一些年齡了 對不對所以我覺得我們今天在處理這個事情的時候第一個基於人道的處理 好不好因為其實我們現在接獲的大部分都是來自於陸配的子女而且他們憤憤不平覺得怎麼會突然他的媽媽要變成有這樣的一個待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8608.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8619.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
好不好 所以我希望你們能夠在最短的時間內有一些可以通案的就通案 我剛才講了嘛第一個 我們先要怪罪是什麼政府你不作為啊 是不是二十多年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8624.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8645.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
你如果依法是二十幾年前定的法律你政府不作為現在造成人民他的不便請問一下錯誤的是人民還是錯誤的是政府請問一下副主委這個事情其實從2004年到現在藍綠政黨都輪替過所以這個事情我認為就是它不是藍綠的問題而是這個制度的問題然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8650.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8678.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
你執行就有問題嘛沒有錯那所以委員講的沒有錯啦就是說我們會去設計一些這個怎麼樣的標準譬如說年齡或者是健康這些東西我們都會把它考慮進去但是因為現在的法律規定就是這樣子我們也沒有辦法說透過解釋然後做不執行所以目前的話我們會在法律跟人道之間做一個最大的權衡謝謝而且我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8679.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8705.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我覺得這個當然因為現在很特殊我覺得該修法就修法我剛剛講了我們在很多的法律上的追溯我們都還定定追溯期了對不對然後現在是無限期的這樣子一直直接的追溯所以我覺得這個當然這是比較長期的但是在最短期我希望能夠有一個比較屬於通案性的來協助這些不知所措的這些家庭好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8708.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8716.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
謝謝那我們現在會請吳思耀委員發言那依照剛剛會議宣告吳思耀委員詢問完畢之後休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8726.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8754.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
謝謝主席在我進入質詢之前我也有權宜問題要表達一下我非常支持剛剛主席所裁示還有王洪瑋委員所說的如果說來列席委員會被尋的官員要經一定程序的請假這是尊重委員會也是尊重召委所以今天如果有部分的官員沒有尋這樣子的程序是到現場主席剛剛召委才說才知道請假的話那當然不應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8755.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8777.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
要檢討那要譴責我也保留我也覺得OK啦這是共同的決定那同樣我就要想到4月2號那一天上週三我們的排案召委叫做莊瑞雄委員他排案的是國會擴建簽件的進度報告邀請列席的官員是周萬來秘書長以及議事處的高百祥處長而當天呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8780.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8802.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
現在坐在這裡的是吳昭偉 當天是莊瑞雄委員他七點就坐在這裡等著開會了到開會前 他手上拿著出席名單還是周萬來秘書長跟高處長 沒有請假 沒有請假所以我們的委員都很認真提早到場準備諮詢可是呢 居然會議時間開始昭偉才收到一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8804.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8831.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
韓國瑜院長燙金的一個書函替周萬來秘書長請假所以如果比較這個標準當天當然在場的委員會的委員當然多數是民進黨的委員我們認為這就是不應當就同樣的標準居然是比今天的狀況還離譜喔主席還是今天到場的時候請假單已經有就是說已經有載明哪些人沒有辦法來 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8832.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8844.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
當天的狀況是我們都在這裡請假單沒有周恩來要來高百祥要來可是主席在那裡要已經宣布開會才姍姍來遲的一張還是由院長替秘書長請假 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8847.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8868.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
這當然該譴責 同樣的標準當然該譴責 更何況當天韓院長的請假函居然是引用立法院各委員會組織法第二條為了替周恩來請假 什麼離譜的法條都可以來硬掰胡扯 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8870.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8879.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
意思是說他當天引用的法條是說以後我講白話文以後委員會排案審查的議案必須是由院會交付如果這樣成立的話主席今天沒有辦法排這個案欸因為這個專案報告並沒有經院會交付欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8888.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8912.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
立法院每天各個委員會因應重大的事件因應大家關心的議案 召委的排案權當然可以排專案報告就如同今天吳召委所排的案子應當好好探討言論自由啊那為什麼當天韓國瑜院長為了護航周恩來為了護航義士不公的人員然後引用錯誤的法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8914.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8939.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
給予他們不用來規避、迴避、監督的這個保護傘更進一步的剝奪了立法院委員排案的職權審議議案的職權如果那天韓國瑜院長引用的法條成立的話今天很遺憾啊這個專案報告沒有院會交付也不能排啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8940.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8955.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
所以不要來剝奪立法委員的排案自由不要來剝奪立法委員的言論自由所以我同樣一樣的標準該譴責今天沒有經請假程序就沒有來的官員該譴責該檢討但是當天 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8960.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8982.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
更加的嚴重離譜的開會之後才讓教委收到一張燙金的院長代替請假以後請問可以由卓院長、行政院長在各個委員會開會當天然後現場提一個卓榮泰院長替法務部長鄭明謙請假卓榮泰院長替我們陸委會梁文傑副主委請假不能這樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8985.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9010.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
所以就程序 論程序 該譴責就譴責 標準一致就如同我今天要講的言論自由一樣好 謝謝主席 不好意思我表達了我的意見那沒問題 就這個部分我想說我這邊會思考一下看價值來說沒關係 我們都尊重您的採釋我只是說大家委員會標準一致今天各位委員的發言我也都尊重那我們的委員會是這樣 因為我當召委就是部會首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9011.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9034.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
不是不能請假 如果真的有事情當然是可以請假那我們以後大概就是一個方式嘛就是我們可能多久前告訴然後讓我了解一下理由就這樣就好我從來不會認為不能請假而且我對於制度的要求就是一體適用不管是我們立法院的同仁或者是其他院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9035.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9058.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
同仁都一樣就是一體適用非常謝謝主席不愧是檢察官所以我相信你一定會支持當天立法院民進黨團在這個會議上譴責周萬來的提案一體適用我們先定一個制度出來我們先講定一個制度以後就照那個制度走那如果之前沒有那個制度我們不知道因為以前我們這個慣例那至少我們現在開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9059.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9062.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
其實今天談的主題就跟我剛剛說的立法委員的排案自由也不容剝奪 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9078.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9105.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那言論自由也不是無法無天立法委員的排案自由不可剝奪但是他會受限於一些當然如果有法規排除的就不宜列案嘛但是言論自由一樣不是因為他是自由就可以無法無天他同樣要受制於法規的規範所以呢鼓吹戰爭仇恨及暴力都是法所不容就是世界皆准的不是只有在台灣下頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9107.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9128.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我多次在委員會分享吳思瑤我個人從政是因為鄭南榮先生的自焚那時候我十多歲爭取百分之百的言論自由在那個時代對於一個青少年吳思瑤來講我是無比的震撼因此在公共事務的堅持跟捍衛上我們要爭取百分之百的自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9129.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9147.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
但是呢以剛剛國民黨的委員的發言我真的要很遺憾的說當年鄭南榮先生之所以選擇非常極端的手段結束了他的生命來捍衛彰顯台灣需要言論自由當初他對抗的就是執政的威權獨裁的中國國民黨到今天我要說言論自由有兩種 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9154.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9175.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
一種是絕對的言論自由人權的言論自由另外一種是被政客、政黨濫用以政治為目的來操作的言論自由就這個標準來看大家心中有個判準今天剛剛大家都垂詢了陸委會的副主委我要說中配也有兩種 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9177.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9193.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
一種是在台灣釋放的支持武統血洗台灣的這種中配當然依法規我支持公權力來執行另外一種中配是複查柏中你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9195.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9212.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
這個出版社的負責人他是中配他在台灣就因為出版了他的出版社出版了一些中國不愛不喜歡的出版品他到中國去被抓被監禁前陣子被判重刑他沒有經過公開的審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9213.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9236.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
陸配有兩種國民黨人為什麼支持的是要血洗台灣鼓吹戰爭的陸配而我沒有看到國民黨的任何人出來聲援支持復查他同樣是陸配他在中國遭受的司法迫害國民黨人沒有人站出來替他說話所以說國民黨沒有變 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9238.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9266.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
本質上沒有變把言論自由拿來作為政治操弄的工具這一點沒有變但國民黨某種程度也變了過去的國民黨反共現在的國民黨不反共我今天所說的任何話是我的言論自由我願意受公平這是言論自由的範疇但是我沒有逾越任何法律的規範下頁部長 您知道有國有器官這紀錄片嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9269.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9270.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
很抱歉我沒有看過 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9271.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9300.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
這一部紀錄片是加拿大的紀錄片花了七年的時間他們拍攝了而且是具體的一個軍醫啊他是親眼目擊者當事者他的見證中國為了高官可以延壽為了高官的生命要延長啊不惜對這些被迫害者多數是法輪功的異議分子進行器官的活摘這一部紀錄片 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9301.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9305.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
拍攝七年前陣子我們都還希望他能夠獲得奧斯卡的紀錄片的提名 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9308.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9336.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那這個紀錄片呢在台灣各縣是播放在澎湖播放的時候受到恐嚇說要如果你敢播的話呢就要給你放什麼樣的炸彈還是什麼的但是澎湖縣政府不受威脅他們認為表意自由言論自由創意創作自由不容被打壓這是在澎湖 下一頁但是換了到台北市 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9337.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9362.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
您知道嗎 同樣的一部片在台北市是青年舉辦的 本來要播後來就喊咔了同樣的理由是說他們也接獲了恐嚇性揚言要在播放電影的現場進行槍擊投擲汽油彈所以台北市政府就決定喊咔不辦他基本上受到的恐嚇跟澎湖是一樣的我在這裡沒有探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9364.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9386.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
縣市政府的決策但我要說的是兩個縣市政府他對於看待這件事情的立場是不同的這就是判準的自由以及依法執行有不同狀況的判準但我要問如果這一個打恐嚇電話的人說我要來槍擊要來汽油彈這是言論自由嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9388.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9397.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
當然不是言論自由嘛 對不對所以台北市政府就基於這個他認為市民的安全更重要他認為那個當下要喊卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9398.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9427.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
我用這個案例來分享就是公權力的指使也就是我們在言論自由如果對於公共利益造成及時危險迫害重大而且是及時的話基於公共利益政府公權力是可以採取作為的所以以國有器官的這件事情台北市政府一度喊卡我非常希望台北市政府能夠來捍衛創作自由讓它可以恢復播放 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9428.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9454.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
但我不評論市政府的作為但我要說的公權力在那個當下他有他判準的因為恐嚇要暴力丟汽油彈槍擊就不是言論自由嘛對不對他就是犯罪嘛我們要預防嘛是所以說所謂的國家安全跟言論自由它不是單選題它有很多複雜的問題但是我希望台灣的政治工作者立法委員不要簡單化 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9456.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9466.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
不要政治化下一頁言論自由應有限制是放諸四海皆准我上次也分享過不管是聯合國的公民與政治權利公約 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9468.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9497.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
或者是聯合國的言論自由特別報告我今天特別找出來的是這個聯合國的言論自由特別報告2001年就頒布了都在一次的揭示鼓吹戰爭仇恨煽動歧視等言論都應當在民主的程序下去進行必要的限制國際的規範去這樣下演我今天也花了很多時間我去整理了各國的立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9498.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9519.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
德國禁止宣揚納粹的意識形態明確的在他們的刑法來規範面對歷史的傷痕要慎防種族仇恨的意識所以德國的刑法針對這些納粹的言論鼓吹都是有法的規範跟限制也有刑責下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9520.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9538.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
看看英國對於煽動恐怖主義也是在特別立了一個恐怖主義法2006年所以任何的煽動恐怖主義行為的言論就屬犯罪這是英國的立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9539.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9567.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
要有重罪15年下一頁看看法國他們同樣刑法來禁止鼓吹恐怖主義的行為而且更與時俱進因為現在的社群網路的使用非常的發達它造成的危害是更及時的所以法國甚至進一步的在刑法的修正當中嚴格針對網路煽動或鼓吹恐怖主義的言論是加重刑罰的 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9568.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9592.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
再下一頁芬蘭芬蘭在世界都被認可是自由度非常高的自由民主人權的國家但是芬蘭也有長期以來因為地緣政治承受戰爭的這種威嚇所以他們特別在刑法當中針對軍事或政治危機會被煽動戰爭也處以重刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9596.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9614.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
這是芬蘭跟台灣的狀況非常接近下一頁日本日本不管是中央的立法仇恨言論對策法或是地方縣市政府對於仇恨言論都有不同程度的立法來予以禁止再下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9615.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9640.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
當然我分享過美國最高法院九位大法官已自覺對於TikTok的禁令是核限的他們認為國家安全的風險跟TikTok1.7億用戶的自由權利 孰高孰低他們選擇了國家安全 這是最新的一個判例這些判例都告訴我們什麼呢 夏業 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9642.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9669.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
台灣跟國際接軌言論自由不論是保障面人權面絕對百分之百言論自由的那個面向憲法層次的或是國際公約層次的不論在保障或是必要的限制立法限制針對仇恨戰爭暴力等等都是截然所以台灣的國內法的規範有違逆國際趨勢或是台灣有因為這樣就戒嚴了嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9672.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9693.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我希望你們下次報告的時候都可以把國際法規一個一個來分享給國人跟立法委員我說的都對嗎不管今天我們講的兩岸人民關係條例入出國移民法或者是刑法對於暴力仇恨歧視跟鼓吹戰爭就是與法所不容而公權力當然要依法來執法好 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9695.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9716.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我甚至要舉一個大法官釋字623號我們聽長可能比較熟悉他是針對為了防止消敏兒少性交易所以對於憲法保障的言論自由非絕對做出必要的因為他影響兒童的身心發展的重大公益 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9717.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9740.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以必須對言論自由採取必要的限制廳長你有沒有就這個部分簡要的跟大家分享因為大家可能都在講國家安全的那一塊我最後特別針對兒少的這一塊我們過去的大法官的解釋也都告訴我們保障言論自由非常重要但是對於傷害兒童身心發展的也是需要必進行管制的來廳長你可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9743.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9772.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
剪刀剪刀說明嗎最後解釋最主要是針對那個兒少性交易防制條例29條是不是規定違憲做出來的解釋大法官也在闡釋就是說其實這個性交易的這個也是屬於商業言論所提供的訊息相關的廣告這樣子那為了保障他的內容必須是真實無誤導性而且交易目的交易合法為目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9772.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9790.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那所以應該受到憲法言論自由的保障但是同時也揭示言論自由的保障並不是毫無範圍的全部保護的可以用法律來明確規定所以我們的和尚相關的法規並沒有違憲嗎它是合憲性的下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9791.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9810.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
所以這是我最終的一個結論我上一次質詢的時候我也拿了這一頁但很不好意思我也很遺憾我的言論自由被斷章取義了被某些黨派的委員去剪成影片說吳思瑤說言論自由要嚴格管制我說的是說對於言論自由的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9811.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9830.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
要嚴格非常嚴謹非常嚴謹的去予以限制他的目的需要為重大破戒制政府利益就如同剛剛的兒少的事件或者是台北市政府針對國有器官他認為公權利益可能會有公共安全的危險對不對而且手段與目的之間必須有重要的關聯 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9831.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9854.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
所以我希望透過這些國際案例的分享 國內法規的檢視以及我們大家都能夠判準的一個基礎的紅線我相信你去努力問 不管是買菜的朋友 還是坐捷運的上班族言論自由是什麼?很重要很重要 言論自由沒有人可以強害在自由民主的台灣 大家都有這樣子的共識 但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9855.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9874.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
永樂自由不能去說要帶人到幾個月了不能說叫我再來打台灣 血洗台灣這是正常的一般的公民朋友我們的公民素養是非常高的所以謝謝主席今天排這個案讓我們可以進一步的探討我也希望大家能夠站在法裡面來看待這個嚴肅的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9876.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9892.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
鄭南榮是犧牲了他的生命來爭取跟捍衛言論自由所以這珍貴的言論自由不能被政治所誤用跟濫用這是我的開場 也是我的結論好 我們繼續加油 辛苦大家 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們接下來休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10257.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10281.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
好 我們繼續開會 那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言好 謝謝主席 我想首先先請 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10285.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10300.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
陸委會和移民署是兩副主委嗎兩副主委和陳副署長所以委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10302.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10316.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
副主委好還有副署長好我想就是從昨天到今天在整個新聞上面還有我包含本席也收到很多的民眾打電話來抱怨 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10319.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10343.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
陸委會跟移民署發了這個通知書就是要求這些陸配他們要檢附在大陸的儲戶證明然後在這裡你們寫的法令依據是兩岸人民關係條例的第九條之一以及第十七條第五項第三款的規定我首先想請教移民署你們這次發出去多少份的通知書 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10345.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10367.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
八號委員我們這次共發了一萬多份多少一萬多少份一萬兩千多份那麼主要發出去的對象是民國93年之前取得身份證的嗎還是有哪些人我們有包括就是93年3月1號施行 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10368.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10395.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
兩岸關係條例修正的3月1號修正以後必須要在這個之前取得身份的陸配他必須在6個月之內繳付除籍證明這是第一個第二個就是從93年之後因為疫情的關係我們有這一些到最近都還沒有繳交除籍證明文件的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10397.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10413.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
所以簡單來說就是有一批人是民國93年之前就已經取得了身份證的還有另外一群是在近期疫情期間取得身份證的我想請問一下在93年之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10413.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10442.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
取得身份證的當時應該是依據舊法因為在兩岸人民關係條例是在民國92年年底的時候修法施行是從93年開始施行所以呢在你們現在講的這個依據是依據第九條之一然後要求這個93年之前取得身份證的陸配必須要再補繳這個證件我想請教就是在九之一條的這個規定它的規範對象是包含哪些人 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10444.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10457.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
他所有大陸來台取得定居的這些陸配是只有那所以呢如果我們台灣地區的人民我們台灣人在大陸那裡有涉戶籍呢93年之前有涉戶籍的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10459.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10481.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
報告委員 他這一條的意思就是所有台灣地區人民都不能夠在大陸涉及如果你在大陸涉及 你就要在六個月之內取消那邊的身份 放棄原期證明所以這邊所謂的台灣地區人民就是在那個時候擁有台灣身份證的人 就這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10482.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10508.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
好所以呢也就是說九之一條的規定基本上它的規範對象是全台灣人對不對在台灣地區的全中華民國民只要是因為就講嘛第一項嘛不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照嘛所以就是說在93年的時候這條九之一條規定是所有的台灣人包含我們現在所有的人都不可以在大陸設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10509.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10528.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那我現在要質疑的就是說你陸委會如果說你今天質疑說現在台灣人可能有些人是在大陸地區有護照或是有戶籍你為什麼你不全面清查你為什麼只挑93年之前已經取得中華民國身份證他理論上他就已經是中華民國國民了 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10530.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10556.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
跟委員報告就是說在93年之前如果他是陸配他取得台灣的身份證但如果他也沒有交那個撤銷對面戶籍的證明的話那我們肯定他就有這一條的適用我想請教一下93年之前的當時這群陸配他們申請身份證那時候的法規裡面有要求他們要付儲戶證明嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10558.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10575.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
93年以前沒有可是據我了解這也是很多的就是本溪街道這邊有民眾陳情那時候其實他們也有檢附一些主婦證明好像是當時交到另外不同的機關裡面去那麼更何況現在已經事隔這麼多年那看起來這次的陸委會其實就是特別就是針對陸配是你們推定他們這些人在大陸都有戶籍或是護照嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10587.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10608.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
戶籍我應該這樣講在大陸如果說他是陸配他在大陸一定有戶籍那他將來台灣他拿到身份如果他沒有繳交撤銷大陸戶籍的證明的話除非他在大陸是無戶籍國民因為當時他們可能來台灣的時候就已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10609.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10624.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
已經除戶了已經放棄戶籍事隔這麼多年二十幾年那麼我想要再請問的就是說因為從最近陸委會的種種的措施來看基本上就是找陸配麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10625.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10645.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那麼不管是之前找雅雅的事情然後或者是現在要求所有的93年之前取得身份證這些陸配一定要檢附儲戶證明這些其實說實在話到底現在陸委會你們是有查到多少人你們自己可以依職權調查你們是有查到多少陸配或是陸配的子女在大陸有戶籍的 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10656.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10680.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
當然有啊有有多少當然有有多少你們自己有醫職權去調查嗎我們這幾年調查這幾年依法取消台灣身份的有676人這幾年有676人所以這是你們自己依法去調查還是人家檢舉的檢舉調查都有檢舉調查你們現在是透過什麼樣的管道去調查你們可以知道可以掌握到這些陸配在大陸有沒有戶籍嗎譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10688.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10706.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我舉個例子他可能他他號稱自己沒有大陸的身份但是他可能他去出入出國或者是這個他就不小心用了他自己的護照那這種狀況被我們察覺那他就會被我們取消台灣的身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10707.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10715.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
是 所以代表說其實陸委會不是沒有能力可以或是移民署不是沒有能力可以去查那麼你們就可以依職權去調查那麼去了解到底陸配他在對岸有沒有戶籍可是你們現在呢卻這個採取了一個就是把所有的人搞得 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10726.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10730.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
雞飛狗跳人仰馬翻然後非得要人家去拿著護照去取得儲戶證明我認為這樣子的方法其實是極為不妥的那麼我要講的就是說在第17條裡面的規定是所有的大陸地區的人民他要取得中華民國身份證他可能是依據的第17條既然依據第17條他已經取得了他當然就是我們這裡講的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10752.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10764.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
這個視為是台灣地區人民所以如果說盡量依據第九之一條裡面去要求他們要檢附這些儲戶證明你留意三更是全台灣的人民你都要發這個通知啊那你為什麼要特別去針對他們更何況我現在要講的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10768.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10785.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
移民署 怠惰如果說93年這個法規就已經通過了如果你們當時就認為說必須要求這些大陸地區已經取得身份證的陸配必須要檢附儲戶證明20年來為什麼你們都不作為老實講這個事情我們也很困惑因為這20年來有藍有綠都輪流執政過 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10796.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10813.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
所以麥欽德上任之後特別在意這個事情特別認為說我們現在台灣裡面都充斥著匪諜是不是委員我跟妳報告一下如果根據九字一條今天如果任何人檢舉某一個陸配 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10814.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10837.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
他沒有繳交的話那麼我們根據九十一條就是可以直接把他除去台灣的身份的那我們之所以沒這麼做而現在採取說是只有陸配嗎你的話基本上就不合邏輯我只是舉例啦如果說有任何人截舉今天台灣人在大陸有戶籍有口罩你就不要特別去針對我們前一陣子就處理了好幾個嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10838.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10859.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那現在我跟委員報告就是說如果今天有人檢舉某一個人他在大陸確實有身份那我們就是可以根據九之一條然後直接把他除掉除掉台灣身份那我們之所以不這麼做而採取現在的先發通知請你回去拿文件的做法就是已經有相當的考慮了 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10860.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10879.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
副主委我要這樣想一下在我們的行政程序法裡面有些規定我想不知道是陸委會不知道還是移民署不知道雖然說在第95條之3裡面有講兩岸地區的人民往來有關事務是不適用行政程序法的規定可是我要特別提醒你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10880.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10892.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
在立法理由裡面當時講得很清楚 是不適用行政程序法的程序規定實體規定還是要適用的所以在這裡我要告訴你們 我給你們上點課行政程序法裡面有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10894.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10912.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
這些重要的基本原則行政行為要受法律及一般法律的拘束要符合比例原則要依行誠實信用的方法為之就是要符合誠信原則要保護人民的正當合理信賴同時你要去注意當事人有利不利的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10913.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10938.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
因此行政程序法裡面也有特別講到就算是你們今天認為沒有補件的陸配當時核給他們身份證可能是有違法的行政處分但是違法行政處分的撤銷也是有期間的限制你兩年之內不作為撤銷權可能就過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10940.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10958.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
報告委員他這邊是知有撤銷原因實就是說行政機關知道這就是我講的你權利失效的原理請你們要記在心裡面行政法上面不見得說是沒有適用權利失效的法例你行政機關你怠惰二十年你不去追你突然之間告訴大家講說那你全部的人都要負都要檢負這個儲戶證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10964.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10987.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
那你今天應該要求全台灣的人啊都到大陸那裡去申請個儲戶證明去證明自己說沒有這個證明沒有這個大陸的戶籍我覺得你們的邏輯不對你們今天基本上就是沒有把陸配當成台灣人我覺得這就是你們最大的問題你們的上位概念你們的想法就是根本不把長期在台灣居住 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10988.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11010.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
愛護台灣的這群陸配當成是我們自己的自己人所以從一根本你們就認為他們就是有問題所以20年了30年了你還是對他不認同啊不就是這樣的嗎所以我要講就是基於誠信原則法的安定性原則我基本上我非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11013.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11023.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
我基本上是認為今天移民署跟陸委會你們就是權力濫用你們標準的權力濫用 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11025.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11048.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
有很多的措施你們可以是採取更緩和的手段去進行的包含雅雅的事件我基本上我並不是認為說今天雅雅的言論這個主張武統這樣的言論是對的即便是她這樣言論自由我都認為應該要有所限制問題是你行政機關你對待像這樣子的案子你有符合比例原則嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11050.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11073.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
你們有太多的措施你們可以要求他的影片下架可以給他警告更何況大家看在我們的兩岸人民關係條例第14條第二項裡面也有講你要驅逐出境你要撤銷他的居留許可你要考慮到他在台灣有沒有未成年子女有沒有難以回復的損害 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11076.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11096.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
委員這個行政法院已經有判決行政機關應該開始在做這樣子的一個決定的時候你們就是濫用行政權我現在很遺憾就是這個不管是雅雅還有歐貴志的事件也是一樣的我想請教一下教育部請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11105.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11127.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
老師或是像我們講的一般的這個大學教授學者們到底可不可以接受陸媒的採訪有沒有違法當然是沒有違法接受陸媒採訪沒有違法沒有違法要看情況他的言論內容要看言論內容所以呢這個從您剛剛的回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11129.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11137.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
讓我就感受到就是如果說上陸媒的節目去批評賴清德批評賴政府批評賴17條這樣的言論就不行這樣子就是違法是嗎那是他的言論自由是你說是誰的言論自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11143.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11165.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
那是他個人的言論自由但他的行為他作為一個老師他另外有一些專業的倫理必須去守他有沒有遵守教育基本法這是你們自己教育部寫的說這個是教師法第32條嚴守職分本於良知發揚世道及專業精神請問一下以歐貴貞老師的事情你告訴我他有違反他的職守嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11166.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11186.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
這是提醒他他沒有本於良知嗎我想北運女他們本身學校現在也對說這個他接受這個中共的官媒的訪問他認為不合宜我現在不是問北運女北運女的做法她是這個也有這個明顯的違法我現在是問你教育部的立場對教育部的立場是說歐老師的言論自由沒有問題有違反師道嗎有違反專業精神嗎這見仁見智吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11194.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11221.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我想台灣就是有言論自由所以他的言論自由是被保障的但是他的言論內容被批評我們也必須去保障可以批評的人是那既然如此那你教育部幹嘛還要台北市教育局去處理歐貴之的事情不是不是是因為我們有就是台灣是言論自由的地方所以也有我們收到13封的檢舉信認為他這樣違反教育中立所以我們請 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11222.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11248.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
本於這個直覺我們請地方政府去了解有沒有那我想這種這種行政調查所以最後我要問一下我最後再請教次長的就是簡單來說現在老師大學教授學者接受陸媒採訪沒有問題不違法沒有法律去禁止沒有法律禁止沒有問題沒有違法那麼如果說在陸媒 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11251.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11277.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
接受陸媒的採訪批評LINE17條有沒有違法受不受到言論自由的保障是啊 受啊受到言論自由的保障我認為是受但是我就說他的言行他的行為作為一個老師他適不適合去講這樣的內容我作為一個法律學者見仁見智吧或是其他我們現在有很多的法律 政治 社會 經濟各方面的學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11278.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11301.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
這個基本上對賴十七條都很有意見的是啊是我們在台灣我們可以大大方方的講這有沒有違反我們的這個所以說我說言論自由上是保障的他的問題在於言論內容上引起社會上不同的反應正因為台灣是言論自由的國家所以有不同的反應也有支持也有反對那教育是本與中立那我們提醒他 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11301.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11315.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
教育本於中立的意思不就是在課堂上我盡量維持中立我要講有人支持賴十七條有人批評賴十七條這叫教育中立對不對我在課堂上面維持這樣子的中立性但是在課堂之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11317.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11336.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
在其他的媒體投書新聞投書批評賴17條不行嗎這是言論自由所以我今天就是要得到次長您剛剛的說法我講的是說言論自由是被保障的但是言論內容引起爭議引起各方的批評證明台灣是言論自由的國家如果說這樣的言論 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11339.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11341.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
引起了社會的討論社會的批評那麼因此教育部就要去干預我想歐老師他也有心胸去接受各界的批評因為你講這種高度爭議的政治性言論 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11354.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11360.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
一定會引起台灣各界的一些不同的反應這是叫高度政治性言論嗎我覺得基本上我覺得你在中共的官媒去批評台灣的元首的這個國安政策當然是高度政治性所以賴慶德是不能被批評的當然可以我剛才講說可以啊所以呢我在台灣的媒體上面批評跟我在大陸的媒體上面批評這有什麼差別不是當然是可以批評啦委員我剛才一直強調在台灣的話就被認為是這個是不可以我們就是要被打壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11383.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11402.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
不是委員我剛才提過嘛就是說在台灣正是因為言論自由所以對於歐老師的言論內容批評也有很多不同的看法那我們本部是收到了13封這個檢舉信所以我們請地方政府去了解這個過程裡面完全是基於行政中立的作為跟了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11403.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11421.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
自由是被保障的是內容批評我今天至少質詢的部分我可以得到次長一個肯定的答案就是在台灣的老師教授學者們接受大陸媒體的採訪違法同時如果在大陸媒體上面批評現在賴政府的作為批評賴清德也不違法因為這都是受到言論自由的保障但是言行自己要負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11433.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11436.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我們先處理會議時間上午的會議時間我們持續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止接著我們請陳委員培餘進行詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11456.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11466.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
好 謝謝主席那有請法務部部長 政部長還有教育部張亮萬堅次長 謝謝好 次長 部長午安 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11478.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11507.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
好 我還是想要談一下言論自由因為我看到邱垂正主委談的是配合統戰那梁文傑副主委談的是國家忠誠那我認為台灣一向對於軍公教我們有非常好的照顧跟相關的就業的保障所以我們對於軍公教他們在國家忠誠度的要求這件事情我想請教育部先表達一下你對教育人員在國家忠誠這件事情上的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11507.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11522.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
我們當然這個本來按照這個教師法跟相關的法令就是對於培養學生的國家意識或者是國家的這個認同都是非常重要的一個場所在學校所以老師正扮演這樣角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11523.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11549.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
那如果老師扮演這樣的角色我們當然對於老師上所謂敵對國家的官方媒體我的定義是這樣敵對國家的官方媒體發表配合統戰的言論表達出他對於國家認同的不忠誠然後再加上我們收到民間的檢舉信然後你們有相關的行政調查並且發函給地方縣市政府去做相關的調查跟處理以上我的邏輯是對的嗎是的並不妥 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11551.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11564.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
所以並無不妥嘛而且我們目前我們現在不管台北市政府處理的態度我認為教育部要有自己的態度我想要問一下次長目前在我們的教育人員任用條例第三條裡面就有談到所謂的忠誠義務對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11566.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11584.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
好 那在教師法的第四章裡面呢根據所謂停聘解聘不續聘的要件有談到老師在言論上的法律底線是好 這個是我們辦公室研究後的結果你認為這件事情如果我們拿出來談我們希望不要針對歐老師單一事件我們認為在國家認同上 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11585.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11596.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
這麼多年發展下來每一個人有自己的選擇跟態度但是對於目前台灣的中央政府已經定調為中國是境外敵對勢力的情況下教育部未來在這塊如何補強 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11598.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11627.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
對我們將來當然會來加強各種這個有關怎麼樣去實踐教師專業另外呢就是在言論的自由上如何去界定這個界線要有一個比較明確的地方譬如說剛才我提到就是說當然歐老師在中共的官方也是所謂現在國安單位定義為境外敵對勢力的官媒裡面去發表他的言論他的主張基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11627.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11653.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
只要不違反我們的國安相關的法令他有他的言論自由但是內容妥當與否就是這個是問題就是說他引起台灣社會的高度很多不認同那產生的批評我覺得這個也是歐老師他必須去面對的不是說如果有外界有批評或者說有檢舉政府去調查就是去干涉言論自由我想這是兩碼事啦言論自由是被保障的 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11653.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11671.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
但是他的言行是否違反專業倫理是否跟教育基本法的精神這個教育中立以及教師法相關的規定是否符合我覺得這個是必須要去言行內容是自由被保障的但是他妥以不妥他是要被檢視的 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11672.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11699.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
好 謝謝次長提到所謂專業倫理事實上在我們台灣的教育現場一直都沒有所謂的教育專業倫理準則我們有非常多的法不管是教師法 教育人員任用條例保障老師們的權利同時也規範老師的義務但是對於專業倫理這件事情一直在台灣的教育現場是缺乏的但如果回到這一次國家認同還有所謂的配合統戰這件事情或是未來會有更多我認為歐老師絕對不會是最後一位老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11700.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11721.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
那我們如何站在保護國安然後奠定國家認同的程度上我覺得我們未來有機會進一步討論教師專業倫理準則這件事情我想聽一下次長是不是可以簡單回覆一下我們尊重立法院的意見事實上目前就是根據這個剛才我提到教師自主自律因為我們在報告裡面提到就是說中華民國教師專業標準指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11723.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11740.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
還有全國教師會裡面有訂定的全國教師的自律公約都有提到行政中立專業責任的問題譬如說在專業表現的指標上他不得利用職權來教導或要求學生支持特定的政黨或候選人也不能支持特定的意識形態那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11742.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11765.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
這個是不是不得違背倫理的行為我想這個就是一個比較像倫理性的規範所以剛才我一直強調歐老師有他的言論自由但是他的言論的內容引起批評他必須去面對是否適合所以後來北一女他們也要求學校的教職員不得接受中共官媒的採訪 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11766.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11781.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
可是我認為其實是整個對國家認同國家忠誠的問題還有配合統戰這件事情可能在一般的教職員現場現行的教職人員的認知可能都有普遍的差異我想在後續我們要再加強那至於教師倫理準則我們還是希望有機會跟你們討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11782.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11811.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
雖然剛剛次長已經講了有所謂教育人員專業指引的部分包含中立的部分但我認為普遍在現場的認知絕對有很大落差好嗎好這個部分我們就先講我們會繼續往下追蹤下一個部長兩位都還請留步我們今天要來司法委員會裡面談教育這件事情因為跟法務部有關我們在看到創意私房的案子裡面呢辦公室注意到了有一個行為人的身份非常的特別我來跟兩位說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11812.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11823.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
這個人他下一張這位老師根據檢方的起訴書有一位誠信男子從民國104年起在台北市多家補習班任教並且從108年起開始在某一個國小擔任帶課老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11827.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11855.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
他在110年8月到112年7月之間多次邀約國小學生爬山爬完山之後去他的住處浴室洗澡趁機偷拍少女洗澡的影片那當然後續就做了很多數位犯罪所以才會在這一次的調查當中我們在看到判決書裡面有相關的案例這個是真實的案例不是我捏造的我要強調一次他是現行學校的代課老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11856.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11879.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
也就是說他在被查獲這個事情之前沒有人知道他在對孩子們下手做這件事情等到創意私房案爆發了檢察官發現有這個加害人那檢察官就要開始去調查對嗎調查到起訴通常平均值會多少會多久假設我抓六個月好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11880.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11906.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
部長假設我抓六個月從開始調查到獲得起訴假設會有六個月這六個月的狀況裡面這個人會不會繼續在學校教書這部分因為我們會通報要依據兒少性剝削條部長你要確定喔你確定你們法務部會通報你們只會好就是下一張沒錯來下一張部長你講對了你們會通報社政系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11907.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11930.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
社政系統根據兒少法49條根據兒少性剝削防務部的檢調單位這邊確實要通報就是一旦查析但是這個通報的系統是為了啟動被害人保護機制什麼叫被害人保護如果他需要相關的心理輔導社會資源的救助或者是他的原生家庭出現任何的困難問題導致於等等等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11930.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11949.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
孩子因為這個事情所受到的傷害我們在社政系統就會啟動保護機制我們的通報的原因是為了這個我們並沒有回頭去影響檢察官正在進行的調查但同步要回到教育部來在此時此刻社政系統知道了但教育部毫不知情教育系統毫不知情 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11950.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11966.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
這個是現行的困境我要講的是這一位誠信老師假設在過往的法律當中有一件事情很重要我們要針對現行的教職人員要定期的進六個系統去查對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11967.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11981.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
但是過往就有案例有很多縣市政府很多學校並不會定期的去查所以我剛剛為什麼問法務部長在這個調查的過程當中假設是這六個假設是平均只是六個月好了知悉到起訴假設我就抓最短六個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11982.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12008.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
我們給檢察官好的工作時間辦案時間去調查這六個月當中學校系統毫不知情教育部毫不知情我不會說是法務部的錯我不會說是檢察系統的錯我會說過去沒有這個形態的犯罪導致於過往不知道原來法務系統要跟教育部系統做這樣的嫁接 對嗎因為它是新形態的犯罪好 那回過頭來看我們可以做什麼事情下一段我們現在想要積極的建議而且我認為兩個部會必須要主動開啟討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12011.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12027.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
我們希望司法系統一旦查析或者開始起訴而上性剝削條例的行為人要如何通報教育系統讓教育系統去做勾結開啟行政調查但是我並沒有要在這個調查的檢察官調查期間讓這個人失業我沒有要這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12033.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12051.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
但是我認為要讓這個人積極的離開小孩什麼叫離開小孩我知道教育系統現在最常做的是把這個人就派去教育局他就碰不到小孩了對不對但是他依然要配合司法調查對嗎或者是呢把他放在學校裡面的行政職但這邊我打一個問號因為行政職還是會接觸到小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12053.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12081.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
可是一旦教育系統知道了這件事情必須要開啟行政調查但現在可怕的就是檢調單位沒有法源依據沒有義務要去跟教育系統通報這件事情你們確實跟社政做了通報而且一直以來都做得很好但教育端怎麼怎麼辦以我剛剛那個陳老師的案例他就繼續在學校當代課老師他繼續用邀請學生去爬山然後去他家洗澡然後偷拍照繼續做這個事情我們怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12082.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12107.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
我想那個陳委員就是你提的那部分那個檢查系統他是依照這個幼照法是不是有兒少犬法 兒少犬法49條他只會通報社政對對那我們本來認為說社政其實跟這個教育行政就是都同樣政府應該是不會的不會的市長不會的那如果說是法令的缺漏造成這個部分有缺漏那當然我們也會啟動相關的包括教師法 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12108.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12122.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
針對全國教師還有幼兒幼照法學前教育的部分我們如果有必要修法我們去研議來把它能夠同步勾結讓犯罪嫌疑人在調查階段遠離孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12122.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12149.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
市長這樣好不好 我認為修法真的太慢了主席不好意思 我超過一點點時間因為這個問題現在真的很難解我認為修法太慢了我剛剛的建議是我們可不可以快速建立一個不要增加檢察官辦案壓力也不要增加檢察官辦案複雜度的一個通報系統讓檢察官可以第一時間一旦查獲我認為是一旦查獲就要除了告知前一個條影片除了告知社政系統之外我們要同步告知教育系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12150.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12167.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
那教育部這邊也要趕快出現一個窗口或是趕快設計一個平台在行政調查的部分就已經可以讓學校是掌握了那教育部你們透過國教署的系統發給地方教育局處地方教育局處就不能推託他就要趕快發給學校趕快讓這個人離開現場這個來來回回的公文搞不好都要超過一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12172.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12180.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
那如果要再去修法我都覺得太難了但是我的認知是其實做行政的行為就可以了這是我的認知不知道部長跟次長你們覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12183.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12205.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
各位很抱歉,那個案件偵查中我們是沒辦法去通報加害人的這一部分我們回到前一張設計我們那個是通報被害人但是加害人因為那個案件還沒有確認是他這個行為的一個確認所以部長的意思是要等到判刑到起訴所以你認為起訴就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12208.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12223.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
起訴這個部分 就可以通知交易系統再來研議看看有沒有辦法去通不用研議啦 那個部長我要求求你 拜託因為現在兒少網路性剝削的犯罪樣態已經遠離我們這個世代的人越來越遠了我們知道現場在座最年輕的是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12224.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12242.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我現在自己都已經快要50歲了可是我的小孩在網路上他就算他不是犯罪的人他也不是去加害人但是他也不是被害人但是孩子們現在在網路上所接觸到的各式各樣的拐騙行為就很可能讓他們淪為是那個被害人但學校系統毫無知情這件事情我們真的還要再研議嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12243.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12270.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
就是嚴厲那個聯繫的機制那個我們贊同是委員的意見嘛在起訴的話我們就可以通報那我們嚴厲看如何再做跟交易單位還有怎麼做我們有沒有機會在一個月內我們辦公室可以邀請法務部跟交易部一起來開會討論這件事情一個月內我們辦公室會積極的拜託你們跟你們一起討論等一下你的幕僚要看起來跟你切切私密一下這個法規的主管機關是衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12272.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12274.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
不是不是不是等一下主席我真的對不起你但是你讓我講完 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12276.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12303.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
兒少法49條或者是兒少性剝削站在保護被害人的機制他當然是會服補可是你不要忘了我剛剛講的是那個老師他就是不適任老師可是全世界只有那個檢察官知道他是那個不適任老師因為他正在查獲的階段他甚至都還不到起訴可能只有他身邊的人知道說這個人是老師然後他對小孩做了這個事情還有只有那個檢察官知道還有陪同那個檢察官一起辦案的警察知道沒有人知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12304.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12317.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
我要講的是 關鍵是我再回到前一章我真的不應該這麼激動但是我要說的是在前一章這個陳老師他就是在那個判決書裡面我們看到是這個樣態他的犯罪期間長達多久110年到112年連續兩年的期間那如果要等到所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12325.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12352.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
你們要在研議或是你們要法源依據沒有辦法做任何行政措施我們要放任小孩置於這樣的狼爪風險之中嗎我要講的是沒有人知道然後檢察官他不能打一通電話去給任何縣市教育局處說我手上有一個案例喔你們要注意他不能做這個事情所以你們要你們要讓這些有良心的檢察官不知道他下一步該怎麼辦嗎這個是偵查不公開的一個問題我知道我知道對所以他不能做這個事情所以我們現在有保護那個被害人那一步機制已經啟動了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12353.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12367.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
我現在是部長次長你一定懂我的意思我們要讓那樣不適任的老師他是徹徹底底的不適任吧而且我要講更可怕的是那當然法務部這邊他是因為那個有分查不分查那我們在行政通報上 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12369.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12392.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
我們在做可以做非處分的一些行政調度來講那這個部分我們跟法務部會後來看看有沒有辦法有一個通報機制我們不是去確認說這個犯罪嫌疑人是否犯罪但事實上有關不適任教師他的判定不是以他犯罪與否而是他行為與否如果他行為上已經有造成被害人當然在通報上 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12393.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12416.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我們會請檢察官看有沒有什麼方式喔能夠我不要再假裝工作給檢察官我認為我們真的認真坐下來討論我們辦公室很願意跟兩個部會坐下來討論站在保護而上的立場我當然知道衛福部那邊已經有做事了可是在教育系統我要再次強調這件事情從頭到尾教育系統都不會知道甚至回到他起訴後他被起訴囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12417.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12433.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
還沒判刑確定以前你們教育系統也不會知道我要再講一次還沒有被判刑確定以前教育系統也不會知道我再回到我手上有一張紙主席我真的對不起你但是讓我講完我們現在所有現行的老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12434.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12463.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我們現在所有現行的老師他們如果要被查在系統裡面他有沒有不適任的問題有非常多系統可以查可是呢一個是剛聘任要剛進去的人我會被調查陳佩瑜要進去某個地方interviewinterview完確定我可以進去要查那我要進去的時候我可能沒有問題另外一個是要做定期調查現在很多縣市政府是沒有好好在做定期調查的所以我陳佩瑜被請進去教書之後我可能中間的犯罪都不會有任何人知道只要那個縣市政府疏於定期調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12467.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12468.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
主席是不是請這個陸委會移民署陸委會移民署 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12510.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12531.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
兩位首長現在從昨天這幾天軒然大波在我們的國家面臨全世界核彈級的經貿危機的時候連賴總統 卓院長都希望大家一起朝野一起共赴國難 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12533.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12545.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
此時此刻對於這14萬的陸配是不是有放棄國籍證明這個事情現在決定要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12550.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12567.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
好 謝謝委員其實我們這個事情不是現在才做其實在去年我們就整個清查所有陸配還沒有繳交除籍證明的這一些人因為如果依照兩岸關係條例9條1那時候的規範他必須在 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12572.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12593.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
台灣地區人民在大陸地區取得戶籍或者使用大陸護照他必須放棄在六個月之內在當時的立法的時候去年什麼時候開始我們去年下半年開始我們就根據這一些因為現在處置的方式是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12593.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12617.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
是要請還沒有我們至少他沒有檢據放棄原籍證明的這些陸配他必須要來補正相關資料沒有補正的話無法補正的情況會怎麼樣其實在無法補正我們也正在跟陸委會在做一個協調我們針對所謂他因故無法 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12618.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12643.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
去回到大陸也可能他是因為年紀比較大或者身體的一個健康狀況所以導致他無法回去那這些事情我們現在其實移民署我們已經有所謂的設立專線還有專友提供民眾政府的專線確定可以處理事情嗎我們是要把 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12644.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12668.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
民眾他這一些沒有辦法回去提示這一些除疾證明的這些人把他們困難點回饋給我們我們彙整各種態樣它是什麼樣的一個狀態那處理的標準是什麼當然現在正在做所以我們希望說所以還沒有標準還在那沒有標準的話你們處置的方式已經出來了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12670.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12699.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
是幾個月內沒有完成會怎麼樣現在目前是三個月之內那如果說看民眾的一個那你太陽的規則標準都還沒有出來就已經準備先處置了嗎應該我們還在研議那這個時間應該先豁免一下吧各種太陽不同的話要如何處置你要一個standard出來嘛你不能說現在立刻就來執行三個月的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12700.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12717.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
梁副主委也有什麼話要說應該是這樣我們根據法律原則上我們會要求凡是沒有繳交的都要繳交這是原則那現在我們收到有一些民眾他陳情說他有什麼困難他沒辦法回去拿 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12718.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12745.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那針對這些澄清的個案我們會個別來甄別但是我也要跟委員報告在這個事情並不是從現在才開始就像副署長講的從去年就開始清查那在清查過程之中有一些也不是現在才有人說他沒辦法回去但是有一些狀況是他可能當事人講的不一定是真實的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12747.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12770.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
有些當事人他只是不願意或是懶得回去或他不願意花機票錢或者說他在大陸有欠債或是刑事責任等等這些所以這些東西不能一概而論那我們的原則上就是大家所以副主委剛剛有說明到有很多不同的態樣但請把它條列化出來好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12772.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12785.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
條例畫出來讓大家有一個讓人民幸福的一個準則法律必須要很清楚的我們可以盡量去做但是因為陳情的樣態其實千變萬化 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12788.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12814.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
千變萬化政府存在不就要處理這些問題嗎那你到目前為止我們比較可以有共識的譬如說你是因為長期臥病在床健康因素你沒有辦法回去拿這個部分我覺得應該是會比較有共識但是其他的部分他說有很多各式各樣的理由那我們不一定都會採納梁副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12816.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12844.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
我想不是今天的詢問而已 這個問題受到大眾的矚目請你們去商量以後 條例是很明確的公告周知 讓大家有所預詢的方向主席我想這個事情 本席從今天早上聽到現在不能這樣含糊過關一個很清楚的方式是什麼 要讓人民能夠知曉 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12847.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12871.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我們會再開會 也請陸委會還有移民署要很明確的遊戲規則讓我們了解梁副主委 我很清楚請教一個問題我們現在是把一萬四千名陸配所有不管任何年限 現在都要繳交是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12872.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12897.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
根據法律是的那請問你法律什麼時候訂的2004年修改的3月1號對那2004年3月1號以前的呢法律規定就是2004年那次修改之前如果他沒有繳交初期證明的話他就必須要在六個月之內繳交如果他在六個月之內沒有繳交就是取消台灣的身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12899.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12925.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
法律規定就是這樣2004年3月1號加6個月9月1號9月1號以後你如果入委會還沒有執行移民署也還沒有執行是不是也過了已經追溯年限了就算大家當時拿一個假的來都已經超過了追溯期的20年 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12928.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12951.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
二零零四年九一號到現在是多少年那個報告委員從我們兩岸關係條例來講這個不能有雙重身份這件事情沒有什麼追溯年限的問題你就算過了五十年你也有雙重身份還是不許剛剛這個秘書來past你一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12952.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12971.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
那這一點為什麼之前都沒有公告周知呢這個是我們覺得這是我們的根本原則這是政府的疏失啊政府的疏失應該自行承受啊怎麼叫老百姓來承擔呢政府官員廢食職務從2004年修法到現在這中間兩黨輪流之戰現在梁副主委本席現在要求你 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12982.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12997.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
沒有關係 哪一個黨都有疏失但是不可以規則於人民就這麼簡單所以未來要如何執行請回去把確切的準則公告周知 可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13000.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13025.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
這個部分我們會去研究但是我還是在跟委員報告因為陳情的理由有各式各樣有些是真的有些是假的政府存在的價值不就處理各式各樣人的問題嗎本席在這裡已經請陸委會跟移民署把這個事情早日承來落定有沒有任何補救的措施跟辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13027.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13053.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
要一併公告 來請那個部長政部長政部長 麻煩部長 三年關兩年罵歷史上主要留下你的痕跡啊您覺得你擔任部長到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13055.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13079.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
臺灣的言論自由是更加的自由還是更加的緊縮我們臺灣的自由程度是在亞洲是言論自由這個是言論自由是亞洲第二在整個國際美國自由自家的一個評比所以你從520就直到現在十個月因為我們的言論自由是增加的 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13080.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13099.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
充分的被保障 依照法律來保障沒有關係 那本席來慢慢請教為什麼 為什麼台灣現在是應該要不分族群 不分意識形態應該好好團結的時刻結果卻有發生這個各種 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13108.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13137.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
對言論前置的危機已經公開的發生而且這個危機不是一兩個人在講是大家都在講那個部長本期請教一下這個中研院陳培哲等75位學者聯合聲明聲明什麼部長請把聲明告訴我們好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13142.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13146.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
75位學者聯合聲明什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13168.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13195.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
這個是整個學者的 中央學者的一個聲明嘛那這部分我們都 我們就尊重尊重 那聲明的內容是什麼聲明內容這裡面有寫啊這裡面有寫 這個不是我講的嘛沒有關係 部長嘛 那他說什麼你參考一下嘛跟大家分享一下嘛 大家分享一下嘛這個裡面有寫的不用我講嘛 這個大家都看到了嘛所以 部長 你要有這個勇氣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13196.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13222.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
面對各界的質疑你要有承擔跟接受挑戰的勇氣嘛已經講了嘛為什麼這麼多偏綠的學者都已經講了嘛這個戒嚴時代思想審查機制啊已經到了台灣的上空啊嚴重破壞台灣民主法治的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13225.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13252.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
部長這是你第一張成績單啊算是偏綠的學者啊發表的聲明啊所以啊 部長鄭南榮先生是哪一天是我們鄭南榮先生我們言論自由的紀念日是哪一天四月七日啊 四月七日 好謝謝你啊你還讓全國國人知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13253.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13275.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
我們現在為了紀念鄭楠紅先生所以言論自由我們是紀念日而不是追悼日言論自由的紀念日不是追悼日本席在這裡再跟部長言論自由這是民主最可貴的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13277.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13305.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
不管你主張台獨你主張統一你主張維持現狀這個都是各種言論的自由都可以表達本席請教部長你應該常常要網羅要收集各方的資訊對不對語情觀察對不對是嗎這部分會我們語情會有一些的注意啦應該部長嘛日理萬機要了解語情嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13307.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13328.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
不管是有線新聞網也好還是網媒也好我想部長應該都常常在涉獵訊息對不對是嗎 這個我們都會注意部長 你有沒有發現本席被青衣社的綠媒 綠網 綠嘴 綠團 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13334.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13359.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
你看 這麼多人關心言論自由 連那個都飛進來了部長 北西被罵了三四個月北西只有兩個字 各種言論尊重這就是中華民國民主可貴的地方大家可以有不同的政治立場 但是我們要彼此的尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13362.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13382.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
部長你的成績單除了剛剛中研院的院士以外我不曉得你從哪裡去看到是用多少的業配去找來的這個這個所謂的國外的評比TBS剛做的這個民調你了解嗎TBS剛做的民調你了解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13385.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13413.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
TBS剛做的民調我們的言論有沒有自由有沒有更加的開放還是更加的限縮部長您上台以後現在我們言論自由認為限縮的人高達86.7%這不是本席做的民調這TBS公開的民調部長這是你的成績單我們國家的司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13414.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13442.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
已經逾越了自由這個我不同意沒有關係同不同意因為這個是一個很客觀的數字啦因為不是本席做的這是我在網路上看到的你可以去質疑TBS沒有關係啦那個部長不過還是要跟您共勉之啦這個福爾泰啊法國的哲學家我想你也都非常了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13444.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13468.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
我可以不同意你的觀點但我誓死捍衛你說話的權利部長認不認同認不認同這個是胡爾泰講的我是認同好 謝謝這就是民主社會那最後呢我想今天啊言論自由既然是今天主要的課題 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13469.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13492.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
所以本席一定要在最後最關鍵的拜託一下部長挺直腰桿政治司法不要介入言論的自由政治司法不要介入言論的自由看一下美國開國的國父 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13498.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13522.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
George Washington為什麼一個政權要禁止言論自由只有三個解釋第一個 他過去做了什麼壞事怕人們提起第二個 他現在正在幹什麼壞事怕人們批評第三個 他準備做什麼壞事怕人民揭露所以 拜託一下部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13523.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13544.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
言論自由是我們民主國家我們要合乎到憲法言論自由是憲法保障的基準的權利但是也要23條憲法23條的一些的法律上的這個也是那我想法官解釋也對這樣就充分的做樣的一個解釋了 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13547.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13573.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
保障這些法律及憲法一旨的言論自由我想這個是可以所以我們台灣才會成為世界被公認的言論自由國家部長又提到世界你又再次拉到世界本席更加的敬佩你再拉到世界我們再一次的強調聯合國的人權宣言兩公約言論自由是必須得到充分的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13574.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13602.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
不需要太多太多的干涉好不好那今天啊我想今天召委排這個課程啊跟部長共享啦分享啦好不好好三尼瓜兩尼麻啦好當來的時候意氣風發都有工作結束的時候要人家常常的很思念懷念你我想公共生涯就是這樣好不好公平之謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13605.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13631.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
剛剛那個陸委會還有那個移民署剛剛委員有提到要你們準備東西麻煩你們提供給委員還有委員會那接下來我們請徐議政委員進行發言謝謝主席我們請陸委會梁副主委以及移民署陳副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13641.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13669.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
委員好副主委還有陳副署長好我想剛剛已經有很多委員有提到有關這個移民署要求大陸配偶補交出籍證明的澄清包括我辦公室也收到非常多這樣的澄清就是說只要在海基會沒有驗證資料的都要補交請教一下陳副署長請問是誰要你們這樣做的沒有 這個其實長久以來我們都有在做這個事情長久以來是多久以來 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13670.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13684.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
其實只要因為移民署負責在省陸配的長期居留從一清居留長期居留到定居這個階段那請問一下陸委這個移民署一直以來都有做嗎我們依據的是兩岸公園這20年來都有做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13685.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13712.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
我們依序都有在做都有做那為什麼還有這麼多還沒有補交如果你20年前就有做的話不該有這麼多人沒有補交嗎跟委員報告其實陸配到台灣來兩岸分配總共有36萬餘人我想請教一下陳副署長我們得到的訊息是在2024年也就是去年的10月是陸委會要求移民署要逐步清查這個陸籍配偶放棄戶籍證明的請問是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13714.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13736.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
這個我們長久以來都有做那我剛剛的問題是去年的十月份陸委會有沒有要求你們要逐步清查陸籍配偶的這個出戶證明其實長久以來我們都在我想我沒什麼時間在這邊鬼打牆我覺得有就有 沒有就沒有如果沒有你就說沒有有你就說有陳副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13741.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13769.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
這個部分是不是說好因為那個我也不要為難你啦好你答案已經告訴我了所以我想請教一下就是有關這個部分就是洛委會要求移民署清查的這個喪屍原籍的證明是民國93年3月1號實施的這相關的辦法但在此之前是不需要提交這個喪屍原籍的證明那所以大家我想大家也都接到很多陳情很多都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13769.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13784.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
如果是以93年開始起算的話很多都是來台灣已經二三十年的這些陸配那所以他們有可能在當地第一個可能親人也不在了第二個有可能因為你要他已經被除籍三十年以上再到原地去 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13785.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13808.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
要求這個他們以這個無戶籍的身份回去辦理本來就有實務上的困難所以已經造成了我想不管是配偶還有陸配的家庭他們都造成嚴重的一個恐慌喔那之前我們也有問過移民署喔移民署回覆我辦公室的說處理方式有三個第一個以海基會提供的請海基會提供驗證副本 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13810.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13833.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
第二個自己回大陸申請第三個請大陸親友代為申請這三種方式剛剛其實也有委員提到了都是不可行的方式也就是說現在在93年以前要清查的人數還有1萬多人剛剛副主長有提到了那目前剛剛不管是副主委還有陳副主長都提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13834.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13862.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
未來如果有沒辦法做到這三剛剛講的三種方式可以用個案來去處理那我想請教一下目前還有一萬多個這樣子的一個狀一個這個還沒辦法處理的方式那未來如果都要以個案處理的話我不曉得是不是因為現在陸委會跟海基會實在是沒什麼業務喔這個吃飽太閒還是怎麼樣都要用個案來處理的話那真的有辦法來處理嗎所以能不能用通案的方式來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13864.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13865.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
請教一下副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13867.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13896.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
我再跟委員報告一下很多人他提出的很多理由有些理由是聽起來是合理的也有很多理由聽起來是其實是沒有那麼合理的如果是有剛剛我想我也在旁邊有聽到副主委有提到有的不合理的部分那我們認同這就把這個不剔除那有沒有辦法用通案的方式來協助所以我們的原則還是這樣比如說啦一定原則上大家都要都要繳交證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13897.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13922.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
當然但是如果說你真的是因為不可抗議的因素我們現在講的是93年以前的嗎從法律規定來講是全部都要交就是說我們可不可以以簽署竊竊書的方式來替代應該是這樣講就要看他是不是真的無法回去真的無法回去取得文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13922.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13938.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
因為我剛剛提到這一萬多個如果你們都要用個案處理的話相信大家不管是這個陸委會不管是移民署的業務我相信都沒辦法來處理所以這部分希望剛剛我想我們國民黨團總召也特別希望你們能夠提出一些樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13939.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13952.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
那什麼樣的方式是可行 什麼樣不可行盡量我覺得還是應該用通案來處理那真正由剛剛您講那個狀況再用個案處理我覺得這樣的方式可能也可以解決大家共同的一個困擾啦那另外再請教一下法務部鎮部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13959.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13981.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
請教一下鄭部長就是針對陸委會要求移民署清查這個放棄出戶證明若無法繳交要撤銷戶籍登記請問這是不是屬於行政處罰的行為行政處分行政處分那行政處分有沒有失效性的問題這要看那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13985.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14004.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
因為如果依照你們行政法法第45條的規定應該是有這個制裁處期時效至本法實施日期算三年嘛也就是說早就通過了那個追溯期啊好 這個是要 這個不是 這是行政處分這是刑處分 那這個也就是行政處罰處罰 這不是刑處罰好 那有沒有時效性 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14013.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14016.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
請問一下剛剛提到這個行政處分有沒有時效性 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14031.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14060.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
那這個應該因為他沒有義務的違反如果沒有義務違反就不是屬於行政的處罰那也有一種行政處分叫做管制性的行政處分那做成這樣一個行政處分我沒有看過相關實體法的規定不過剛才答詢的內容好像是說有從自知悉時起可以做這樣子一個處分那以上那所以是有還是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14061.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14077.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
時效嗎?對就是如果實體法的規定是是從資息機關資息時起算他可以做這樣一個處分的話那可能就是要具體的去認定機關到底什麼時候是可知可得資息的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14078.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14095.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
那所以這部分應該要請梁副主委回答是嗎根據我們兩樣人民關係條例九之一條的規定你可以看他的條文他基本上是沒有任何時間限制的也就是說一個陸配他就算在台灣生活了五十年六十年 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14096.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14117.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
他如果兩邊的身份都有的話只要被我們窒息那我們就要處理好 那針對這個部分就是要麻煩梁副主委就我們剛剛所要求的能夠盡快的提出一個同案的檢討 謝謝謝謝 那接下來我們請羅志強委員先代理主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14135.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14154.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
有請吳宗憲委員我們麻煩教育部政次、陸委會副主委、法務部長還有司法院廳長教育部、陸委會、法務部還有司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14158.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14183.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
好那首先我先破題的簡單講一下就是因為我們其實這段時間我受夠了很多不明的不明的這些網軍總是對我們的發言斷章取義所以我現在這邊先說明一下第一個我今天所有的質詢都不針對個案那你們也請不要用個案來回答我第二個對於所有 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14185.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14202.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
只要是對我們這塊土地的有侵害的外來武力我們都予以反抗我們一定都會出來反抗而且所有希望以武力來顛覆我們這塊土地的我們都予以譴責但是呢 回過頭來我講到 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14204.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14224.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
重點但是有些言論雖然不被我們所能接受但是不代表國家就可以動用公權力來加以限制他發言的理由也就是有一些言論他不被我們喜歡但是是不是有到達違法或用法律加以處罰其實這兩個東西是完全不同層次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14225.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14242.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
的概念所以我自己在上個會期的時候我有提到在1990年的時候我自己參加野百合學運一直到後續也有廢紙動力勘案次序臨時條款然後後來我再去參加了廢除刑法100條的活動其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14243.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14265.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
我一直在追求的就是所謂的百分之百言論自由所以今天很多民進黨委員來這邊講說鄭南榮多麼啟發他其實鄭南榮一直他的言論他所謂的言論自由一直是我追求的一個重點所以他所說的在面對槍口之下他也是追求百分之百言論自由或是像楊兆所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14267.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14282.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
鄭南榮到死他都還是堅守百分之百言論自由我想說這些東西現在目前在有一些民進黨的政客的嘴裡面其實我覺得他們是在褻瀆鄭南榮的精神我想先提一下 當年為什麼參加廢物刑法100條 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14287.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14307.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
的這個活動當然當時那個主要原因是因為當時我的學校導師是劉初之教授嘛他先生是林三田那林三田本來就是廢族刑法100條的領銜人所以一直以來我們都是追隨著他們而且我們希望當時流亡在海外的異議分子能夠平安的回到台灣我們當時是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14308.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14334.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
我們的都在追求這個甚至在刑法100條在修正之前其他第二項根本就是一個思想犯的控制那他第一項他在修正之後也加上了許多必須要強暴脅迫的實際行為這時候才會加以限制所以我們在這麼久以前就知道要去廢除刑法100條來追求我們人民的言論自由為什麼到今天反而走回頭路 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14335.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14343.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
那我想請問一下法務部跟司法院如果有人在網路上面發表說我要顛覆賴清德政府請問這有沒有成立內亂罪這應該很簡單吧請問這有沒有成立內亂罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14359.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14389.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
好 就是沒有成立內亂罪嘛 對不對我想這結論 我想這非常簡單啦所以呢 其實賴總統他前天說的他說任何鼓吹剝奪台灣人民自由主張讓中華民國台灣消失的倡議都不是台灣社會能夠接受的言論自由而百分之百的言論自由 更不是利用自由來消滅自由基本上啊 我大部分還是認同賴總統說的話畢竟沒有國家了 那大家也就無所依附了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14389.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14407.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
所以講台灣消失的言論 這個不會被主流民意所接受啦但是違不違法 這是另外一回事我再講一次 很多言論不被主流民意所接受但是違不違法 它是另外一個層次的問題所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14410.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14438.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
我想言論自由的界限在哪裡 這個很重要我們必須告訴人民什麼能講 什麼不能講但是政府對於這個東西似乎是完全沒有很明確的規範就像這次法務部你們跟司法院都有提到的4至445號跟644號其實它已經講得很明確了就是說國家不可以單純因為集會遊行的團體主張共產主義或分裂國土 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14439.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14464.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
不能因為主張這個就限制他們或拒絕他們集會遊行的許可所以從這個四字我們很能夠明確的了解就是所謂限制人民的言論自由它必須要有兩個要件第一個要明確所以我們法律要有明確性第二個要有立即的危險所以當有這兩個的時候你加以限制是完全正確的但是今天如果不是的情況下 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14466.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14476.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
那實際不應該立法加以限制啊你只能說他是一個不入流一個不好的言論但是不至於到我們要用法律去規範他嘛所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14479.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14495.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
過去民進黨追求100%研究結果 但到今天似乎又變了那我再請教一下教育部政策我想請教一下 部長最近的發言他認為說 教育人員在教學的時候要讓青少年具有國家主權的意識要確保國家認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14498.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14520.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
我跟你說我認同這一句話因為我從小我爸爸就告訴我叫我做到兩件事愛國還有孝順這我公開講過很多次我爸從小就叫我這兩件事一定要做到所以對於國家認同對於愛國我是非常重視這個行為好那我請教一下部長這麼說那鄭次郭想請教你喔是那 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14521.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14548.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
今天你們要求老師跟學生要這麼做要求老師要這麼宣導那我請教您一個問題所謂的國家認同是一憲法所講的中華民國還是二兩岸的民關係所講的台灣地區以及大陸地區或是三台獨就是台灣獨立 主權獨立的台灣國還是四蔡英文政府她所說的堅持維持現狀的台灣還是五 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14551.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14576.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
小時候課本寫的做個堂堂正正中國人請問這五個是哪一個叫做是我們的國家認同我想部長已經講得很清楚那你等於沒回答我他就是中華民國的教育工作者你等於沒回答我請問一下這五個是哪一個我講一個最簡單您今天貴為次長您也是政治人物出身我非常尊重您但是如果貴為政次而且是政治人物出身的人都無法告訴我所謂的國家認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14579.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14606.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
愛國到底愛的是什麼樣的到底是什麼我剛剛講的就五個這五個也是非常明確第一個憲法第二個兩岸人民關係條例第三個大家講的台獨第四個蔡英文前總統所說的維持現狀的台灣第五個還是小時候課本說的台灣真正的中國人這五個是哪一個我要效忠哪一個或我要認同哪一個那個才叫做符合教育部部長所說的國家認同請教次長他有講到憲法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14608.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14619.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
所以呢我剛才在報告的時候也有提到我們享用的言論自由是根據憲法第二條這五個選項很簡單嘛憲法上現在是中華民國嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14621.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14644.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
所以今天你說的是你認為部長所說的國家認同是憲法的中華民國你秀出來就有提到不要忘掉身為一個中華民國的教育工作者所以這個講得很清楚沒有問題沒關係我剛剛就講有五個但是今天似乎實際上在政治圈大家不是這麼講 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14646.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14669.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
還有人大言不慚的說中華民國憲法是災難本來一開始說中華民國是災難後來趕快改口說中華民國憲法是災難那我就不講誰 大家也都知道所以現在其實我跟各位報告搞到今天所謂的國家認同都只能講台灣你不能講別人 你講台灣以外就叫做中共同路人所以打球打贏的台灣隊 打輸的叫中華隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14670.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14694.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
這只會出現在荒謬的台灣才有這個狀況其實這很離譜但是我還是跟各位說我不討厭民進黨的人我不痛恨他們但是我超級熱愛這塊土地所以我認為我就是熱愛這塊土地所以我從小就認為愛國是一件很重要的事情可是你今天反而混淆了我到底我的國家認同要在哪裡那如果說今天連 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14696.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14711.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
上面的長官們自己都搞不清楚都無法確定了或是說的跟做的不一樣就像部長在喊說台灣國的什麼什麼這是部長 不是教育部長啦連劉部長都說了我們台灣國怎麼樣那我要 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14712.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14727.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
老師怎麼教學生 要學生怎麼遵循就我剛剛講的 這各種都是不一樣啊所以 好吧 反正這個不是教育部講 所以我也不適合問次長說有部長在台上喊台灣國 這個大家想法是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14728.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14755.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
所以我覺得這種搞下去台灣變成很對立對立的社會似乎你不認同民進黨口中所說的那個國家的那個概念或他的定義那你就是中共同路人事實上我剛剛講的我不恨民進黨員我以前也很堅持的支持民進黨的青年情緒愛鄉土但是今天他變了是他變了不是我變了所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14756.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14781.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
他對這塊的土地熱愛 其實我是已經看不到了那我再跟各位報告一件事情DPPS前幾天的網路投票其實有77.4%的人認為戴總統上任之後言論自由被限縮很多9.3%認為被限縮了一些也就是說超過8成5的民眾感受言論自由的限制是比過去更嚴重這個請給各位參考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14782.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14799.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
這個不是我所追求的百分之百言論自由也不是我一生尊崇的鄭南榮他的言論自由所會引導出今天台灣的這個現狀所以一些言論即使在言論的市場不被大家喜歡但是不代表它就是違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14800.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14822.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
不被人民喜歡的言論他也不代表就會動搖台灣現在的安全跟國際的現狀所以我想這給各位講一下那我再請教一個問題法務部跟司法院我請教一下我國目前有沒有規範鼓吹戰爭罪請回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14829.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14839.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
這份委員報告,那個現刑法有可能涉及到鼓吹戰爭的言論,包括就是仇恨性的言論,這個譬如說刑法100條、101條、103條、309、310、還有153條,還有涉違法的63條。309、310,公然侮辱不當。這個就是妨害名譽這邊都有涉及仇恨性的言論啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14853.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14876.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
誹謗跟共產主義這是仇恨性的言論這跟骨髓戰爭有什麼關係309、310不可能啦那骨髓戰爭的言論這部分骨髓戰爭的言論的話我們看可以更明確化但是有涉及的條文是有這些跟仇恨性的言論我覺得那部長你這樣講太包沾包海了這講出去會被唸法律的人笑啦我說實在話我想這個我們就可能我說可能有涉及到這部分仇恨性 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14876.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14905.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
因為這個戰爭有時候是仇恨性的言論我沒有講仇恨性的我講一個就是戰爭簡單來說就是譬如說有人喊武統這個我國目前到底有沒有制定這個法律有沒有那還是廳長如果部長你總是搞不清楚那廳長呢我不會搞不清楚啦好那你跟我說哪一條你再跟我說一次哪309、310講出去線上看到的法官檢察官應該會笑出聲音我們就先說在整個內亂外患通某開戰這部分嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14908.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14925.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
這跟鼓吹沒有關係啊那我來跟各位報告那至少我自己基本認為啦目前我國並沒有就鼓吹戰爭這個行為加以立法那我再跟各位報告一下我國是成文法國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14926.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14951.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
以及我國的罪行法定原則也就是你的行為除非法律有規範它犯罪否則基本上它是不會構成犯罪所以我國是堅守罪行法定主義以及純文法國家的這個概念那今天有兩位民進黨的委員一位省姓委員一位無姓委員他們兩位一直在講公正公約二十條他說某人 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14952.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14978.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
鼓吹 蔣無統這個部分呢怎麼會沒有違法這個公正公約第20條結果他們也唸了公正公約20條的條文結果他唸的條文跟他講的解釋完全不一樣他連法律都沒有搞懂公正公約20條任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳應以法律禁止之也就是說公正公約20條它所刻意的義務是國家必須訂出法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14979.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15005.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
是這個規定 國家必須訂出法律 而不是告訴人民說 你講這個就是違法什麼情況下會違法 就是當國家訂出法律之後 人民加以違法 那叫做違法所以這就回到我剛剛說的 這是我國的罪行法定主義 是這樣所以今天這兩位委員 一直提公正公約二十條 所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15005.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15022.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
今天有人在網路上面講無同兩個字這個是違法其實這是完全錯誤的概念這個也是對於法律認知的思考的跳躍這個邏輯完全中斷思考的跳躍才會發生這個說法所以公正公約二十條第一項我們該檢討的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15024.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15042.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
過去的立法院以及過去不管藍綠執政的行政單位為什麼沒有趕快把這個法律立出來為什麼沒有2009年公正公約就已經生效了為什麼十幾年下來國家卻沒有把這條法律立出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15042.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15069.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
結果今天有某一個人他在網路上面講了這句話之後你就說這個違反公正公約20條可是公正公約20條他是要求國家去立這個法律我想這很明確那至於說有一些人他要思考跳躍的去解釋法律那我就予以尊重所以又回到我剛剛說的我國目前沒有鼓吹戰爭罪嘛至少從構成要件來看有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15070.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15089.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
好 那不管有沒有 那我再請教一下有網紅啊 在他的歌曲裡面啊 就是要求中國大陸求你趕快打過來 你到底打不打那請問一下 這個有沒有違反 違反法律規定這個是不是鼓吹戰爭我想請教兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15094.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15123.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
好吧 那沒有辦法回答就算了我想我們不能always雙標在面對國人尤其是法律跟制度應該長治久安你一方面可以說有人在講武統或武裝那個我也很討厭那個言論我也絕對譴責講這些話的人但是他在法律上面要怎麼去定位法律是不是要符合法律明確性告訴大家言論自由的界限在哪裡而不是今天你非我族類 那你就違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15124.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15142.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
你是我同一掛人所以你今天你講叫中國大陸趕快打過來你到底打不打啊就沒事所以我這邊必須點出這個從法律的角度來告訴大家公正公約第一個被很多政客自己隨便亂誤解公正公約它刻意的對象是國家以及行政機關立法機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15144.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15170.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
那今天我國只要還沒有完成這個立法程序之前人民你不能說他這個行為違法你可以說他不道德你可以說他這樣不好你可以說我譴責你這個說法但是你沒辦法說他違法我在這邊跟各位做這樣的報告好 那我這次跟法務部要資料 部長啊我跟你請教一下說到底你這個鼓吹戰爭罪什麼時候要立法你們給我的回覆是研修小組在113年4月2號已經開過 有開過一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15173.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15185.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
那現在一年多了啊那到現在到底是怎麼樣卻沒看到第二個你又說我跟你要資料你又給我回覆說不提供會議紀錄因為依據政府資訊公開法18條第一項第三款這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15189.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15207.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
這個研修紀錄是不能公開的但是呢請你看一下那一條有一個但書那一條的但書就是跟公益有必要的時候得公開那我今天覺得這個東西跟我們國人言論自由的範圍有非常大的關聯性跟公益也有關聯性甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15207.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15222.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
一個人他到底在網路上面能講什麼不能講什麼或者是有人講被辦有人講沒事那到底範圍界線在哪裡這毫不明確所以我還是認為說下次我還是會形容跟你們一樣但是我想說如果你再跟我說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15224.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15250.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
你要提這個政府資訊公開法來不給我的話我想說這個跟公益有關我還是希望你們能夠公開另外一年多了這東西到現在沒有進度這也是我想要點出來讓大家知道法務部這一塊你就是怠惰在處理這個事情最後我想請 不好意思喔耽誤到大家的時間最後我想請問一下那個陸委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15252.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15281.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
陸委會我有拜讀你們的資料還有剛剛陸委會主委也有提到剛剛在做口頭報告的時候也有提到一個點就是說你說陸配的言論自由程度跟公民不同因為要有較高的管制那這個我不評論我都予以尊重因為你說這個是境外敵對勢力等等的這個說法所以必須對他們有高強度的管制我先不評論這件事情我想要請教你的那所謂的陸配的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15283.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15310.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
第一個如果只有居留權的陸配才要高強度的管制嗎還是第二個取得身份證後的陸配也要高強度的管制第三個如果是中國大陸出生成長受教育但是事後入籍他國或港澳然後再與我國人結婚那這三種請問一下這個管制上面是一致適用高強度管制還是有所區別請教副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15312.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15334.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
如果他只有居留權 他能夠住在台灣是因為我們特許他我們給他特許讓你住在台灣 但我們可以隨時取消這個特許權所以他的管制就會比較更高一點譬如說他不一定要居留 也許他是來停留或者是來觀光 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15335.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15355.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
他講出類似可以會違背國家利益或是干擾社會秩序的言論那我們就不歡迎那他如果拿到身份證或是定居但我們在定居留許可辦法之中也有相對的條文至於你說第三種狀況是說他 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15360.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15384.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
中國大陸人士他拿到美國籍然後跟台灣人結婚那我們會看他說拿到美國籍或是拿到其他國家國籍有多久的時間基本上我們會用五年來算就是說你拿到其他國家的國籍五年之後我才四年之後我才確認你可能已經放棄了中國的國籍了這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15388.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15396.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
第一個只有居留證的陸配你們認為是要比較高強度的管制那有身份證的我剛剛沒有聽清楚有身份證的話你們怎麼認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15397.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15422.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
有身分證的話 因為我們在定居留尋可辦法裡面也有相應的條文跟這個居留的部分是有點類似所以這個部分呢 我應該是這麼說就是台灣跟大陸之間 它的狀況很特殊所以我們在兩岸條例從一開始設計的時候它就跟國籍法不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15423.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15452.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
我們在處理兩岸人民關係的時候跟台灣跟其他國家是不同我也認同我的意思是說我都沒有意見啦就是說台灣跟中國大陸之間的關係很特別這個我OK但是我的意思是說不管怎麼樣對人民我們的任何行政處分都要明確嘛法律明確性原則這是一個法律最基本的概念所以呢我現在確認的是第一個有居留權的陸配這個管制上面會比較嚴格那我剛剛請教的如果領有身份證的當初的陸配 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15453.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15477.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
那這個要不要嚴格我只是要問這個問題而已應該是這樣講就是我們既然給他身分證原則上我們是把他當作是中華民國國民就是他的言論自由的審查程度不會像只有居留權的陸配那麼高好像得到這個有他國籍的這些就是以四年來當作判斷的標準那這個我可以了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15478.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15500.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
好那最後我還是一樣就是說我提到一個我還是反對任何武統言論或者是只要有任何武力要對我們這塊土地要侵害我都願意出來對抗所以不要扣我們什麼帽子只要不認同民進黨就叫舔共沒有這種事情啦台灣是大家的台灣是我們熱愛的這塊土地不是我不認同你的邏輯那我就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15500.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15512.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
那個誰的同路人我跟你講這個就是把人民二分法搞激烈對抗然後獲取政治利益而已啦這其實很沒水準啦所以但是呢不管怎麼樣我覺得我對言論自由的追求 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15514.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15534.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
還是一樣百分之百言論自由但是我不容許任何政府或個人假借民主的民意或抗中保台口號的民意或國家安全的民意在沒有法律授權法律明確性的情況下去侵害人民在憲法第11條的言論自由的基本人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15535.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15557.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
那就看是誰是人民啊我們現在這次處理的幾位他都不是我們那個副主委我已經說了我一開始就說我不講個案那我剛所謂的百分之百的言論自由我絕對沒有排除掉所謂的人民所以我跟你講我從年輕二十幾歲的時候就在 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15558.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15584.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
十幾歲跟著野百合學院二十幾歲跟著廢書刑法一百條我一路這樣走過來那我們以前追求的是什麼對啊那今天鄭楠榮變成很多人的提款機但是他還是我心裡面我覺得我堅持的理想啊那你今天你要扣這個帽子扣別人講一些有沒有我不是不太能接受但我也尊重各位的發言的內容鄭楠榮是前輩啊但是他並不是神主派 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15585.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15605.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
我沒有說要繩子款 我說大家不要把它當作提款機來用好 那謝謝各位接下來我們請羅志強委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15611.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15632.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
主席有請司法院陳廷長 法務部政務部長然後部委會梁副主委 以及內政部陳副署長我想先念一段陸培子女的話給各位聽一下 請問各位感受如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15634.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15662.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
我母親從小教導我要愛台灣守護這片土地她來台三十多年奉公守法照顧家庭繳稅納保未曾有任何違法行為一生為家庭付出為社會安分守序如今卻因為無法提出一份三十多年前未被要求現今更無從補辦的文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15663.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15690.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
竟然可能面臨撤銷中華民國身份失去他所屬家園的命運讓我們一家人痛心無助我也忍不住想問這真的是我們從小認識以憲政自由與人道為根本的中華民國嗎我念這段話我想要請教在座的首長們 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15692.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15715.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
真的不是用黨派的角度去看這件事情請大家用為人子女的角度來看這件事情我想請教一下我們的司法院的陳廷長你也是一輩子的法律人你覺得這是你從小認識以憲政自由與人道為根本的中華民國嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15720.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15745.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
這個一直都是我們追求的理念追求理念如果說您的父母跟他一樣被要求提出一個三十多年前未被要求現今也無從補辦的文件如果交不出來他就要被趕出去 驅逐出境離開他的家園 離開他的家人請問你能接受嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15747.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15776.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
我想我的感受可能會跟委員剛才念的那一個子女的心聲是一樣非常好謝謝你陳廷長我想請教鄭明謙部長請問將心比心如果說今天是我們的父母要他拿一個30年前這20年我知道政府也沒跟他要他補辦突然我們賴清德總統上來就要他補辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15777.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15801.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
補教啊然後他也無從再找到這些東西了可是你找不到就離開台灣為人子女你覺得你的心情會是什麼我想我是法務部長救法援華那這個也不是我本部全管的一個部分部長其實你的答案我都知道你從來就這樣學學成廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15805.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15834.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
作為法律人要有法律人的柔軟的心來 我想請教請教我們的那個移民署的陳副署長請問如果你的父母被要求交這樣的一份文件他真的找不到啊三十年其實真的我覺得人之常情啊找不到是人之常情啊你覺得你身為子女看著父母親要被趕出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15835.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15860.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
你心中做何感想我們會很難過可是在我目前我剛剛稍早有一些委員的指導副署長我跟你講我能夠理解你在現在政府部門擔任事務官的為難所以我不會勉強你但你剛剛講的那句你會很難過我很感動也請部長好好聽一聽來請我們的副主委請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15865.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15866.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
你的感受是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15868.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15895.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
從我們陸委會的立場我會先確定說他所謂無法補辦是什麼意思因為我們碰過很多人說他無法補辦但是後來都證明他其實是有辦法的你們發了多少信出去要求他無法補辦如果他是真的無法補辦經過我們的甄別真的無法補辦的話那我們絕對會保障他的權利副主委我問你啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15896.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15919.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
你們發了多少信出去要他們補辦就是大概一萬吧已經是解禁無差別的一個要求沒有無差別所以一萬份都是被檢舉嗎沒有無差別一萬份都被檢舉嗎病居的14萬人這一萬份是不是93年以前的大部分不止 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15921.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15946.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
一萬份欸所以我剛剛講的還不是一個子女的心情是一萬個家庭子女的心情沒關係啦 副主委我也知道 你是政務官啦所以你有為政策辯護的一個職責啦沒關係 我想請教你下一個問題我請教下一個問題三十年三十年 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15948.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15967.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
不是三天 不是三個星期 不是三個月 不是三年 是三十年要你交三十年前的文件 要你治政去交三十年前的文件 交不出來就把你驅逐出境 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15968.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15996.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
驅逐離開台灣是這樣嗎不會的好謝謝你非常謝謝副主委現在我請我們烏魯佩今天聽聽就我們副主委今天被問出來我們不是叫你交30年前的文件請副署長來而是30年前你沒有去申請這份文件副署長謝謝你剛剛副主委講了交不出來也沒關係因為30年前坦白講跟副署長講 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15997.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
16023.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
真的 你以一般人喔 不要用政治色彩我請所有的 我們的台灣民眾 以人人的角度出發你要人拿30年前從大陸拿文件出來有難度吧我不要講說不可能 我講有難度總是很公道吧所以在這裡跟委員報告因為我們這幾天也接獲一些民眾來 我問一下部長部長有難度吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
16031.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
16043.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
我沒有說不可能,我是有難度吧?我是當然非常期盼他們能夠找出來,能夠在台灣安居樂業。我告訴你,部長,你又是,什麼叫期盼他能找出來? |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
16044.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
16059.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
我告訴你 你怎麼會把所有的責任都加給民眾這個不是我全管的 我當然我也是希望說我知道啦 不是你全管的所以因為有主管機關在所以我要請教你下一個問題我要請教我們的那個 梁副主委是發了一萬多封通知要他們交捕 要交件是你剛剛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16075.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16104.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
我想請問為什麼蔡英文總統沒有發這1萬多件通知出去老實講因為這個2004年到現在藍綠政黨轉換我也不清楚說到底為什麼以前沒有執行我跟你講為什麼陳水扁有沒有發這1萬多封通知信出去馬英九有沒有發這1萬多封通知信出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16106.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16130.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
你都跟我講你不知道不懂不了解因為任何做一個人以子女的心情來講蔡英文總統就知道你接近無差別一萬多分你不要跟我講是有差別接近無差別大規模有交的做這件事情的時候凡是有交文件的我們就不會發就不會發通知啊有請副署長有請副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16137.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16163.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
這個法規是93年定的嘛93年3月1號兩岸關係條例修正的9條1好 20年了今年終於發了一萬多封叫人家要補件然後如果交不出來有可能面臨驅逐出境剝奪身份嘛我想請問蔡英文總統8年有沒有發這一萬份的通知書有沒有沒有謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16169.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16190.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
梁副主委好好看看人家怎麼回答問題我要繼續請副署長你知道陳碎邊有沒有其實跟委員報告了所有在訂這一些馬英九有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16191.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16197.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
馬英九總統有沒有我沒有針對說93年3月1號為什麼蔡英文沒有為什麼陳水扁沒有為什麼馬英九沒有無能嗎 這三個總統無能 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16215.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16237.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
對陸委會來講因為兩岸條例是我們主管的法律所以當我們發現有許多人從來沒有繳交過相關的文件的時候這個部分就必須要處理所以蔡簡總統在他八年任內他竟然沒有發現何其怠惰 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16238.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16261.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
是這個意思嗎就你們偉大的現在在競爭總統上來你就發現了我不能這麼說非常謝謝你當然不能這麼說如果根據現在的法律你當然不能這麼說任何人只要檢舉某一位路程我們就可以立刻處理我們之所以不這樣做而是選擇發通知要他們補件其實是出於人道的考慮梁副主委我當然知道你現在的立場我怎麼會不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16269.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16296.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
我告訴你 絕對不是蔡英文總統無能蔡英文總統任內雖然也有很多我們意識形態不一樣的地方她也不是每一個政見做法我都認同但是蔡英文總統心中還有一份柔軟她沒有拿著刀斧對著這些陸配 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16299.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16307.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
他沒有拿著刀斧 拿著一萬把刀對著這些陸配報告委員 我們現在的做法就是因為柔軟 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16309.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16331.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
所以啊 我告訴你啊 如果你們把這個定義為柔軟的話那豈不是定義蔡英文為無能因為現在任何人如果去檢舉某一個人他有大陸身份 我們就得立刻處理我們之所以不這樣做 而是給人家補正的機會就是因為注意柔軟所以你接到一萬多封的檢舉信了就是因為柔軟來來來 你還柔軟咧副署長 請問有沒有接到一萬多封的檢舉信 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16337.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16347.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
沒有接到幾封檢舉信我這樣問好了 問精確一點這1萬多封發出去有幾個是接到檢舉信發的這個我要回去查看看你不用回去查啦 你給我個比例嘛有沒有1%啊 還是10%啊 還是100%因為我在實務上也有發現說這1萬份裡面有一份是檢舉 有10份是檢舉100份是檢舉 還是1000份是檢舉這一點 總的概率你總知道吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16368.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16387.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
所以要再查一下再查 好沒關係啦待會發新聞稿告訴大家啦好不好來 請副主委你很柔軟 真的好柔軟你柔軟到讓我都覺得已經是欲哭無淚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16388.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16414.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
你剛剛講有人檢舉你都還不一定查就這一萬份沒檢舉你都查你說有人檢舉有時候你還要體諒大家你柔軟你還不一定查結果你柔軟到沒檢舉的你也查所以我才跟你講你跟無差別到底差別在哪裡一萬多個家庭一萬多個子女這真的跟意識形態無關啦跟意識形態無關啦最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16418.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16432.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
因為時間也到了我還是回到一句話身在宮門好修行在台灣三十年了他不是台灣人到底誰是台灣人 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16434.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16449.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
在台灣30年了你說的所謂無法補正或是什麼這些東西我們都必須要看個案然後如果他是真的無法補正因為身體的理由或是什麼樣的理由完全無法補正的話我們不會把人家趕出去絕對不會請部長就你法務部齁我們剛剛陸委會柔軟的陸委會說要看個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16463.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16468.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
看個案就是主管機關裁定不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16469.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16495.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
他這個可不可以留下來這個如果說有駁掉的話這是訴願再訴願的行政訴訟這個要 但第一道行政處分是行政機關做嘛這個是行政機關跟後來要打行政訴訟這是司法院 我講的行政處分是誰在做啊如果你的行政處分是誰在做這個不是法務部這個完全不是法務部 我說如果啦這個要問司法院因為這個屬於行政的問題你是一路走來始終如一啦這個因為要打行政訴訟沒關係我做一個很快的結論很簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16499.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16523.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
很簡單看看蔡英文總統看看陳水扁總統看看馬英九總統他們絕對不是無能這三個都是法律人總統他們非常知道什麼叫信賴保護我作為一個人在台灣生活三十年 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16525.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16553.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
作為一個法律人或也作為一個任何人今天一個陸配來台三十年這段期間移民署也好 陸委會也好你在九十三年法律訂的時候要他六個月內交他也交文件 不交文件不管你二十年的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16555.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16578.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
你身份還是給他他身份繼續保留這不就是信賴保護嗎結果你現在打翻這個信賴保護而且說實在剛剛已經承認了沒有檢舉也做啊至少裡面很大部分是沒有檢舉啦至少不是全部都是檢舉啦因為你沒給我數字我也不敢講是什麼蔡英文總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16585.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16608.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
能夠知道這份柔軟馬英九總統能夠有這份柔軟陳水扁總統也有這份柔軟我希望身為人 身為人子也能有這份柔軟 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請張綺凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16636.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16660.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
請梁文傑 梁副主委還有這個移民署的陳副署長好 副署長委員好文傑我們兩個認識三十幾年了年輕的時候我們心都是柔軟的可是心不要變硬更不要變成是壞的 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16662.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16665.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
特別人在公門要好修行政府存在的目的就是服務人民啊不是製造問題啊你知道從今天一早這麼多人在問你的你們把它定位成是陸配我看到他們的陳情有些很多都是他們小孩陳情的他們貼的文章 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16692.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16716.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
如果是我們很年輕的時候文姐你跟我都很年輕我覺得你應該是會掉眼淚的我很希望你那個初心是還在的我看的是難過的是明明本來沒有事情啊為什麼搞出來這麼大的一個讓那麼多的家庭不安我昨天在緊急找了副署長到我辦公室對不對你們發出去的這個一萬兩千封欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16723.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16748.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
你剛在講檢舉 你有檢舉你就辦 可是檢舉要辦你也要舉證啊你怎麼一下撒一萬兩千多封出去 一萬兩千個家庭而且你知道你現在對象是誰嗎這些人已經來台灣三十幾年 四十幾年 五十幾年他們不只是台灣之子的老婆台灣人的老婆 台灣之子的母親 他們就是個台灣人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16749.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16759.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
你做台灣人做二十五年 做三十五年 做四十五年很多年紀都很長了 六七十歲了你希望我叫他去拿二十一年前 三十幾年前的東西出來你不強人所難嗎我剛剛在講政府要做什麼事情 政府要服務人民嘛你海基會 你的陸委會的功能在哪裡你的移民署功能在哪裡你叫他去補證件 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16778.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16785.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
很多政見政府應該幫他找啊是不是我先提五個最具體的我們先來看一下五大具體的要求我先從第二個開始講你現在叫我們這個陸配你在民國93年3月1號修了兩岸人民關係條例之後你說本來要他註銷他的戶籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16804.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16826.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
你本來六個月內要完成啊你本身沒有好好去追對不對這是不是政府本來就是失職 怠惰責任在政府嘛政府要去幫忙解決問題啊所以我第一項我基本的要求民國93年3月1號以前他已經定居了對啊 文哲你也說啊他如果已經取得身份證 從寬嘛對不對我明確要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16827.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16857.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
在這93年3月1號之前已經來台定居了就排除了也就是你這次花了一萬兩千多份不要再追了這是第一項你這樣是不是就解決問題了我剛剛講了那麼多的台灣支持的父母的母親台灣人的老婆那麼多的台灣人就不會有這個困擾了嘛把這個時間點定出來第一項 現在要做的事情啊你就叫他補正啊 海際會為什麼要存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16858.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16873.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
為什麼要存在海基會海基會為什麼沒有被裁掉 為什麼要設立他不就是要幫我們人民服務嗎他要做認證的工作啊 是不是所以現在有碰到問題了 因為打電話或者到海基會去申請就好不是去找那個台六要回一趟 任何一個人要跑一趟大陸多遠啊不用工作嗎完環要多久 去還要再辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16884.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16896.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
海基會存在的目的是什麼所以讓我們的陸配 我們的人民直接到海基會去海基會扮演它應該有的功能海基會跟大陸 海協會是對口的嘛去查啊海基會去查 到底他的戶籍還在不在啊對不對啊如果沒這問題 為什麼跑那麼一趟海基會存在才有它的價值嘛要不然就拆掉啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16912.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16939.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
另外接下來就是移民署給你入委會的功能第三點你的目的就是要他放棄大陸這個戶籍嘛 對不對你做一個公版的申請書啊我就是要證明嘛 對不對然後你給他一個公版的這個申請書他簽名 簽完以後到這個法院去認證不就完成程序了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16941.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16966.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
所以從政府的角色從海基會一直到你入委會到移民署這問題不就解決了嗎為什麼搞這麼複雜呢為什麼要擾民呢甚至還牽扯到身份的這個檢驗還有歧視的問題只要你回到初心以前的梁文傑 笑臉的梁文傑心是軟的 不是硬的 不是黑的政府該有的功能要扮演做到前面這幾項問題是不是都解決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16969.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16995.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
好 很具體的啊 對 所以我要再問一個你現在很嚴重就是叫人家三個月內要完成這個事情你們自己人家打電話去問 你說什麼程序要多久你們要回答說至少大概兩個月 給你們多一個月時間太緊迫了啦至少把這個時間延長多於兩年另外我一個要求 除了做剛剛的現在很多人民都碰到問題了我們有特別跟你講 這邊你們刨掉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16997.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
17021.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
你不只製造了社會的對立 你刨掉了台灣很重要的根民主 法治 人權跟人道 都台灣很重要的你把這根刨掉了然後製造了社會的對立 讓很多人惶惶不安等於老實講 你們也刨掉了民進黨自己的根啦你去看看臉書上面還有很多來陳情的你們連民進黨的立委現在 辦公室電話都被打爆啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
17023.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
17045.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
裡面有些留言說我長期都是民進黨支持者啊你現在有媽媽回去找一個三十幾年前 四十幾年前的東西找得到嗎連民進黨那些青鳥 那些支持者都反彈了你們在刨自己的根啊這些人本來就是在台灣人啊 人家住這麼久啊為什麼要圍爛人家呢最重要的 政府的角色扮演完以後你要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
17046.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
17062.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
就可以完成這個法律的程序嘛 對不對所以我明確要求你在最近一個月內北中南去辦公開說明會請聽到底碰到什麼問題幫他們解決問題文傑跟移民署副市長我們來做這五件事情好不好委員可以讓我們有時間回答嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
17065.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
17091.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
對我們來講其實不管是93年3月1號以前還是之後其實我們都是不准有雙重身份那今天之所以會有3月1號這個事情是因為當初的修法我們現在是follow法律如果說立法院覺得說這個93年3月1號以前應該排除那老實講這個不是我們行政機關可以答應的 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
17094.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
17112.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
你當初在九十一年三月一號修兩岸人民關係條例的時候你當初很多人就已經拿到身份證了耶那你要的話你當初你就一直追他說你六個月內沒有完成放棄對不對你六個月你自己沒做所以我說你是帶動又失職啊你這個轉嫁變成要人民來負擔這個事情咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
17113.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
17135.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
法律追訴期間第一個 沒有那麼長啦 都是知道當初我也不是陸委會 你也不是立委嘛你現在這麼晚 你還在那邊堆你現在來追 是當初的陸委會 陸委會失職啊那你怎麼反而現在怪到人民身上 要人民來負這個責任不過委員提出的一個方案 其中第三點我一再強調 就是說如果他是當事人 真的沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
17136.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
17158.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
拿到文件的話我們會有別的措施我們絕對不會說你真的沒有辦法拿到文件然後我真的把你身份取消我們不會這樣做但是很多人我還是要再強調一遍很多人都說他自己沒辦法拿到但是實際上最後都是可以的 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
17160.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
17170.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
我只能夠這樣子所以我說你政府自己要先辦年好嘛你就讓他去海基會海基會去幫他查啊你陸委會的功能你移民署的功能你把那個放棄的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
17171.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
17199.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
公版的申請書給他就好啊你給我這個問題啊是要達到法律上要的二跟三趕快做 可以嗎關於如果他真的沒有辦法那用切結的方式這是一個可以考慮的方向用切結的方式對 如果真的沒有辦法拿到文傑 不要用個案處理啦你給一個公版嘛你所謂切結就是說他現在是找不到對不對他確實很困難嘛由入委會跟移民署提供一個公版切結說我確實已經放棄了 找不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
17200.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
17226.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
那你經過這個法院的認證嘛 對不對那就完成這個程序啦OK齁所以陸委會跟移民組會做這樣的事情齁在這裡跟委員報告那個副組長他是你的指導單位嘛 對不對是不是你除非是要推翻他的要不然你不用再說了趕快做這件事好不好那個等一下等一下讓副組委先講那個你什麼時候可以把這個公版拿出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
17228.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
17250.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
這個竊竊的這個官板好不好一個禮拜可以讓大家自由上去自己是可以下載嘛那個委員我再說明一下對於那些真的沒有辦法回去拿到文件的人用竊竊的方式是可以考慮的方式但是首先我們要先確定他到底是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
17251.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
17278.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
真的沒有辦法拿到否則我們對那些真的有回去拿這些文件然後回來繳交的這些陸配也不公平你這樣跑一趟就已經是擾民了也不公平你存在價值就是服務民眾你本來海基會可以做的因為現在14萬定居的13萬人都交了嘛那比較近期了嘛對不對比較碰到問題大部分都是在93年3月1號以前的啦你那個一萬兩千份最主要就是這個嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
17279.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
17308.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
是不是跟全民講清楚為什麼今天那麼多人這麼氣憤是因為你現在發出的一萬兩千份都是九十三年三月一號以前二十一年前的他放在這邊就住了四十年五十年這個都是連長的我看現在上面的抗議的人都是二代啦都是年輕人啦媽媽在這裡住這麼久啊你叫我現在六七十歲啊七八十歲啊你要想要叫我拿三四十年前的東西這不是擾民不是獅子是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
17309.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
17334.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
我覺得對我們來說身體健康跟年紀這些我們都會考量最關鍵的我們要解決問題你剛剛說要有一個切結是可以的那你一個禮拜內把這個切結的公版寫出來放到網路上讓大家可以下載或者有需要的人就到移民署去拿我看移民署現在大概每天都是一缸子人去 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
17336.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
17351.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
電話被打爆了現在是忙到連電話都打不進去了對不對那你要想辦法解決問題啊包委員我們已經設有專線還有專友也就是讓民眾可以傳輸的一個便利那 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
17352.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17368.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
我們本署的網站也會公告專用電子的信箱諮詢的專線還有對外的Q&A然後我們會製作懶人包讓民眾知道要怎麼來處理那最重要的是我們要請聽這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
17371.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
17396.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
接獲通知的民眾如果他不能回去大陸他的原因他的狀態是怎麼樣我們收整把他分類然後再跟陸委會來做研商現在我接到的這個投訴還有在網路跟媒體上看到的很多人根本就是去電話打不接的打進去了你們就叫他第一句話嘛去回大陸 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
17399.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
17426.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
你去把文件找到嘛 來公證嘛你地雷太沒用 地雷你變成轉機啊你不是個轉機而已啊政府存在的目的你要幫人民解決問題 要找到對的方法嘛 是不是剛剛我們有新的進展了那個陸委會的副主委 文姐我剛剛講的 切結這個事情 這是一個地雷盡快給一個公版的 大家可以有一個依循這是地雷 地雷好好去檢討一下 跟海基會討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
17428.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
17453.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
海基會如果要存在你本來就要幫人民做這個認證啊等一等我可以去你那邊查說到底以前我有沒有這個文件嘛對不對有沒有撤下這個文件嘛它本來就要保存啊啊沒有的話它存在功能它就是跟對岸它有對接啊它可以幫人民查不是嗎如果只有二跟三這個解決了根本就連大陸就不用跑問題就解決了啊委員跟你報告能查的或是海基會有存檔的 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
17454.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
17475.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
都有查了所以現在在通知的就是沒有就是沒有存檔也沒有所以你看 海基會就沒有標籤這年代這麼久很難查你強人所難嘛所以幫忙解決問題啦好不好 另外剛才你一個重點我剛才說過你說 你說如果沒有如期完成的你不會把人清除出去 趕出去喔 對不對清楚跟民眾講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
17478.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
17493.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
不會 這個要保證喔要保證喔不要發生這樣的悲劇如果真的沒有辦法拿到這些文件政府絕對不會做出這種驅逐的舉動這個和前一陣子那三位中配的案子不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
17494.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
17516.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
這就是我們 都像台灣人 做這麼久了 要保護自己的台灣人現在特別 你看 這裡高關稅那個海嘯這麼嚴重 怎麼每天都結社會啊草野都是一新的啦 各行各業 別在裡面又製造一些衝突跟這些擾民的事情這裡面老實講還有歧視跟身份檢查問題 都真的很不好啦我們今天都是解決問題喔 每個東西都很具體喔 好不好好好檢討一下 要檢討一下 如果在93年3月1號以前呢 可以排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
17524.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
17549.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
我會努力 當然你如果要修法 立法委內 我們可以來提案可是我覺得你如果心還是軟的 行政部門本身也應該做我們蠻期待的啊 陸委會行政部門自己提案啊留下一個心還是軟的 有幫人民在服務的政務官當官都是一時的啦留下來不要是汙名 要是美名 好不好還有機會 我們趕快幫我們的陸培跟我們台灣人 改發問題 好不好好 大家 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
17552.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
17570.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
好 謝謝 那下一位請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員蔡義瑜委員 蔡義瑜委員 蔡義瑜委員鄭振淺委員 鄭振淺委員 鄭振淺委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
17574.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17590.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
好所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢詢答結束委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關請出送交個別委員及本會本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家 |