| IVOD_ID |
16570 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16570 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-5 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-09T08:31:06+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-09T13:55:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:23:54 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6859b2e70173c67771bea093030673645f96e2c503bbdfdf4b6bd9c179b2ced00bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:06 - 13:55:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1639.053 |
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嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1760.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1765.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
報告委員會 出席委員人數12人 一組法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1776.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1791.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
立法院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第四次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一十四年三月二十七日星期四九時至十四時九分地點群賢樓八零一會議室出席委員成委員招資等十五人 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1792.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1809.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
列席委員林委員德福等17人列席官員衛生福利部政務次長呂健德等相關人員主席蘇造吉委員清泉報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請衛生福利部勞動部國家發展委員會教育部法務部針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1810.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1838.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
少子女化衝擊如何營造友善托育環境進行專題報告並被質詢本次會議由衛生福利部政務次長呂建德勞動部政務次長李建宏及國家發展委員會副主任委員詹芳冠報告後委員陳昭芝等22人提出質詢軍經衛生福利部政務次長勞動部政務次長國家發展委員會人力發展處處長謝家儀教育部國民及學前教育署副署長許立娟 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1838.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1839.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
沒事啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1868.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1889.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有那我們議事錄確定那我們今天的議程大家都很有興趣邀請勞動部部長對於勞動部首署基金違規使用如何追討及究責進行專題報告並備質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1899.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1923.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我們現在介紹在場的委員林業勤委員王振旭委員陳昭芝委員那我們介紹列席官員勞動部部長洪森翰歡迎歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1926.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1953.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
勞動力發展署代理署長 陳世昌好 歡迎勞保局局長 白立貞歡迎 歡迎勞動基金應用局局長 蘇玉清好 歡迎治安署署長 周子蓮好 謝謝中和規劃司司長 王厚誠好 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1956.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1961.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
勞動關係師師長王厚偉勞動保險師師長陳美女勞動福祉退休師師長謝倩勞動條件及就業平等師師長黃維琛 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1987.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2010.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
勞動法務司司長 傅惠芝秘書處處長 丁玉珍人事處處長 江碧玲政風處處長 周志信會計處處長 林美信我們審計部副審計長 林李順寶 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2018.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2023.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
行政院主計總署公務預算處副主計長陳慧娟那我剛剛有講我們今天先請我們的副主計長報告完再請副審計長報告完然後接著由洪部長來報告,詳細報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2041.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2045.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
主席 各位委員 女士 先生 大家好今天應邀列席 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2065.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2089.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
第十一屆第三會期貴委員會第五次全體委員會議對於勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及救者提出報告以下請就該部所屬基金之運用及管理緊要說明如下依特種基金運作之管理機制首先收支保管部分依照預算法及 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2089.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2111.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
特種基金管理準則等規定收支保管及運用辦法必須展明設立的目的性質管理機關基金來源與用途預決算處理程序等所以各基金是按照它收支保管及運用辦法來運作再來就預算編制方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2113.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2132.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
行政院院班定有規範非營業特種基金應該設法籌妥長期穩定的裁員而且預算編列範圍應該跟公務預算明確劃分符合基金設立目的及基金用途者才可以在基金編列預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2133.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2155.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那至於預算執行督導考核按照管理準則的規定主管機關對所管各特種基金之營運績效財務狀況應該切實督導考核並得訂定督導考核相關規定那各特種基金收支之執行成效可以由審計部等相關機關依法隨時實地調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2159.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2182.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
所以附属单位预算执行之督导考核已经有明确的规定再来就劳动部所属就业安定基金纪念财务状况说明就业安定基金主要基金的来源是就业安定费的收入依照就业服务法第55条的规定专款专用与办理促进 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2183.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2208.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
國民就業提升勞工福祉及處理有關外國人聘僱管理事務等相關事項那該基金110到112年度的短處是因為疫情辦理紓困措施至於113年度決算已經從短處轉為剩餘那推估到114年度基金餘額有459億餘元可以供 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2211.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2230.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
以後年度相關支出之裁員三 勞動部已經就審計部審核意見採取精進作為審計部114年3月21日函審核結果就業安定基金有部分經費支出跟基金用途 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2232.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2237.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
關零性不高因與收回所以修正該基金113年度決算72246254元勞動部規劃將爭取包括編列以後年度公務預算規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2249.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2265.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
規定就業安定基金等各種可行方式另外勞動部針對基金制度面及執行面已經採取精進作為包括修正就業安定基金收支保管及運用辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2266.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2292.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
訂定基金預算適用原則明確規範促進國民就業等用途範圍另外活動影片及文宣製作等會採專案簽辦採購方式來辦理另外也訂定了宣導品採購及正發管理原則明定不得採購跟業務推動無關或非必要之宣導品建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2293.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2319.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
管控機制等相關管理規範最後本案基金審計部審核通知勞動部查明處理收回勞動部擬爭取由公務預算支應部分本總處將視其後續相關預算程序辦理結果託處我們也將持續追蹤勞動部對就業安定基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2320.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2331.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
精進作為之辦理情形督導該基金預算編制及執行等事宜以上報告敬請各位委員、理事先生會議指教謝謝那接下來我們請副審計長李順寶報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2351.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2370.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家早 審計部應邀列席貴園會來專題報告 深感榮幸那之江本部有關今天議程所列的就業安定基金整個相關經費的進行情形我們實際的審計的概況做一個扼要的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2373.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2399.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
在113年11月間媒體有報告JNT基金有移召不當使用的情勢那本部會的釐清相關經費支出的意義及各項採購作業的執行情形依照大院在第十一屆第二會期財政委員會的第十次會議的全體委員會議跟大院第十一屆第二會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2400.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2423.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
第13次會議相關委員的質詢內容的主辦事項我們在去年的12月2日派員赴勞動部跟所屬的勞動力發展署來就地查核那查核發現跟審計處理的情形 二要報告如下首先第一個部分是有部分的支出項目跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2423.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2450.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
基金的設置目的跟用途關聯性不高那勞動部在跟所屬在103到113年度期間運用就業安定基金辦理勞動節主題影片製作跟宣導等案子那這幾個案子裡面相關經費的支出項目經過審核結果跟就業安定基金的設置目的跟基金的用途關聯性不高 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2452.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2468.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那中間的相關金額經雷總之後大概大概是在七千兩百二十四萬餘元那本部已經在一百一十三年十二月還有一百一十四年一月分別散發審核通知還請勞動部來檢討查明收回 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2471.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2487.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那這個部分因為113年度的會計年度已經結束那依據憲法第105條跟決算法第26條規定審計部審核這個中央政府總決算是有法定期限這個法定期限是三個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2488.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2507.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那因為實現的關係所以我們審計部審酌相關的這個實際運作的情形我們就依據審計法第22條跟決算法25條規定在今年就114年的3月21日散發審核通知那修正就業安定基金113年度附屬單位決算 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2511.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2539.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那實際的修正內容是簡列113年度的支出是1203萬餘元以前年度的部分支出是6020萬餘元那這這個部分是增列為收入並且全數增列為其他應收款合計是7224萬餘元上開的修正事項勞動部已經在今年的3月28日函附同意本部修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2540.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2562.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那第二個部分是我們查核發現有一些基金管理跟執行面的制度面的缺失部分那舊安定基金他的管理跟執行我們發現舊安定基金管理會跟舊安定基金內部管控審核小組並沒有充分發揮原定的審議跟考核還有審核的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2563.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2573.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
另外勞動部辦理性別工作平等法20週年音樂會跟110到113年度期間勞動節主題影片採購案是採直接洽各該年度的文宣媒體通路採購的開口契約廠商辦理這樣的做法無法驗核這個履歷的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2589.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2611.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
另外實際在經費的運用部分並沒有明確來劃分公寓預算跟就業安定基金它的這個預算的執行範疇那最後是有關這個就業安定基金部分有關相關的採購的宣導品它的分送跟領用沒有一個制度面的一個規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2612.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2638.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那這些缺失本部都已經在去年的12月跟今年的1月分別散發審核通知函請勞動部來查明檢討那勞動部也非常積極在處理這件事情在今年的1月2月跟3月分別函附本部已經研提各項的改進措施這些措施我想等一下部長應該會詳細說明但我想這個部分我就把它列掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2639.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2658.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
再來第三個部分是我們查核發現有一些部分的採購案跟金管財務遺設有刑事責任那勞動部勞動力發展署北基宜花金馬分署我們簡稱叫北分署他辦理110年 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2661.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2676.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
新庄本部空间美化整修工程跟113年办理113年形象识别计视觉设计的采购案我们发现有投标厂商间已有刻意不为竞争的情况 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2676.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2694.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
另外北分署在金管部分的宣討品我們去實際就地查核的時候有流向不明的情形本部已經在去年的12月將查核發現的異常情勢有密送台灣新北地方檢查署並按來偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2697.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2716.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
根據新北地檢署114年4月2日的新聞稿該署指揮法務部調查局新北市調查處偵辦北分署公務員圖利案已經偵查終結相關人員有一部分人員有涉犯刑法的洩密 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2717.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2731.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
貪污自罪條例的侵占公用及公有財物圖利正採購法的以非法方法使開標發生不正確結果還有借用他人名義或證件投標等罪嫌 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2733.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2760.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那最後是有關這個其他的審計處理那我們審計部已經根據依據監察院在去年的12月23日的韓市把我們整個案子的查核發現把它中整之後在去年的12月27日呈報監察院那另外也根據法務部廉政署在去年12月19日的來函在去年12月我們也中整整個查核發現韓送該署來 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2763.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2779.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
參考那最後報告本案的後續審核列管追蹤那政府審計是一個持續的集合過程不會說在某一個環節集合完就結束其實他包括後面的follow up我們都是會 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2780.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2808.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
持續來追蹤機關的實際改正情形也會跟機關保持密切的互動來就執行的疑義部分或者一些自愛部分一同協同來找出解決的方法促進整個政府的良善治理所以在這個部分第一個在有關支出跟基金設置目的跟用途關聯性不高部分剛已經報告過我們最後是修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2809.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2813.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
7224萬餘元那勞動部已經同意修正那這個部分我們會督促勞動部來收回來歸還這個就業安定基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2821.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2846.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
第二個部分是涉及財務責任部分剛剛已經報告就是新北地檢署的新聞稿已經說明這個案子已經偵查終結那其中有一部分的人員涉犯刑法洩密跟貪污自罪條例侵占公用即公有財物等罪嫌那我們審計部會等到這個司法判決確定後會將案官人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2847.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2868.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
如果有違背預算或有關法令的不當支出我們會依據審計法的規定來辦理追繳的程序那至於案關有一部分是涉及民間的廠商民間廠商部分如果經過判決確定有違標或不正利益等情況我們也會通知勞動部依據政府採購法的規定來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2869.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2890.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那最後是制度面缺失跟行政責任部分那勞動部已經在去年今年的1月2月跟3月分別含糊說明檢討改進的措施並且已經參考本部的查核意見就這個基金的用途面管理面跟資訊公開面提出六項的積極的策定作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2891.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2908.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
另外有關採購案設有人員行政維持部分 勞動部已經提報人事考據會來處理那本部也會繼續來列管追蹤各項改進措施的後續辦理情形那以上請請請主席各位委員女士先生指教 謝謝好 謝謝那接續我們請洪部長來報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2926.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2941.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天貴委員會召開第十一屆第三會期第五次全體委員會議我應邀進行勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2942.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2965.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那本部主管基金包括救安定基金勞工保險局作業基金基建工資電廠基金及勞工退休基金包括薪製或救製那鑑於審計部近期針對救安基金經費使用情形進行專案查核那原本部救救安基金經費收支情形審計部審核結果及本部回覆情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2966.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2995.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
還有基金管理運用之檢討及測經作為以及修正檢列之經費如何追回及究責進行報告那第一個是針對救安基金的這個經費收支狀況那政府會促進國民就業平衡雇主應聘僱外國人從事就業服務法第46條第1項第8款至第10款規定之工作所衍生之社會成本及處理勞資爭議保障勞工權依據就業服務法及勞資爭議處理法規定設立救安基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2996.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3006.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
113年度基金來源用途預算數分別為284億餘元281億餘元執行數分別為279億餘元230億餘元那本期還剩49億元基金餘額為434億餘元那本部第二個本部同意審計部修正113年就案基金決算之審核決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3022.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3040.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那審議部查核本部及所屬109至113年度救安基金經費滯用情形的審核結果認為本部所屬運用救安基金辦理勞動節形象影片製作等各項支出與救安基金設置的目的及支出用途關聯性不高因與收回 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3041.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3064.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
修正救安基金123年度決算7224萬元那6254元那對於上開經費支用原油及辦理情形本部前已提供說明申付審計部這些支出項目本部當時認為是屬於業務推動所需並經評估符合救安基金用途規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3065.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3087.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
原由救安基金支應那但是審計部在114年2月8號來函認為本部辦理多項宣導案未審視業務需求積極爭取編列公務預算長期運用救安基金預算相關支出與救安基金支出用途關聯性不高屬於公務預算支用範疇英語收回本部予以尊重因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3088.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3107.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
該部在3月21日來函修正救安基金113年度決算72246254元那本部於3月28號同意修正那第三本部以救救安基金管理之管理及運用通盤檢討提出各項測驚作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3109.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3125.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那經歸納審計部針對本部及所屬機關使用的救安基金相關個案所提意見及本部就制度面及執行面通盤檢討結果有關救安基金運用的合一性爭議主要噪音在下面幾個部分第一本部公務預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3127.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3145.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
業務費編列不足長期營用救安基金來使用那文宣媒體通路採購開口契約之適用範圍有待檢討第三點宣導品採購及領用分送未定相關規範第四點救安基金內部管理機制需要更強化的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3146.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3159.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
針對上述問題本部已經在114年1月3號提出救安基金管理運用經濟規劃報告分別從基金的用途面管理面資訊面等面向全面進行檢討並提出合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3160.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3181.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
争取合理编列公务预算,律定用途范围与滞用原则,规范广宣经费使用,强化审议机制,强化内控机制并运用外部集合及增加资讯公开等六项精进对策,令旧文宣媒体通路采购开口契约制适用范围进行检讨,目前已推动相关策进作为如下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3182.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3199.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
本部將更謹慎評估救安基金預算執行效益針對與基金用途關聯性不高但何屬公務預算自動範圍之支出項目爭取別類公務預算來支應規劃修正救安基金收支保管及運用辦法以及訂定救安基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3200.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3222.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
致用原則明定不得致用於業務無關與非或非公務用途之項目及採購宣導品不得作為年節禮品等使用自114年度起本部文宣媒體採購通路開口契約之偽商工作事項將以網路平面電視廣播媒體等通路採購為主定定 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3223.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3249.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
宣導憑採購及政法管理原則明定不得採購與業務推動無關或非必要之宣導品訂定就案基金審議要點修正勞動部勞動立法人署就案基金內部管控審核作業要點重要計劃預算金額由五千萬元改為兩千萬以上需送基金內部管控審核小組審議以擴大管控範圍第四點 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3250.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3275.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
救安基金修正簡列之經費如何追回局舊者這些支出項目本部當時認為是屬業務推動所需並經評估符合救安基金用途規定現在既然審計部本期全責認為上開支出與救安基金支出用途關聯性不高也就是不宜使用救安基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3276.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3301.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
所以要求救安基金應收回這些款項因此本部將尋求行政院及相關單位協助包括以包括補編公務預算等可行等各種可行方式處理救安基金檢列收回事宜本案除審計部辦理專案查核外監察院亦對相關人員是否設有疏失責任立案調查本部 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3302.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3323.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
本部立場尊重檢調及司法最後調查判決結果如今判決確認有人謀不章或隱私等違法情形本部將配合檢調及司法偵辦結果追究相關人員財務責任結與針對近期外界質疑救安基金運用合一性質相關爭議本部將透過在用途面爭取合理配置公務預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3324.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3340.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
公務與基金預算 綠定基金用途範圍與資用原則 及強化廣宣經費使用規範在管理面強化審議機制 強化內控與運用外部集合 並提升基金運用資訊透明度等設計作為未來將持續滾動檢討基金是管理機制與 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3344.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3355.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
及經費運用成效以強化救安基金預算編列與執行之把關機制健全基金之管理運用 以上報告進行指教並預祝主席各位身體健康 謝謝好 謝謝部長有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊文公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3376.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3401.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我們現在開始巡打做以下宣告第一本委員會巡打時間八分鐘內席委員四分鐘十點半截止花園登記如果有書面質詢請於上會前提出預期不受理暫定我們十點半左右休息十分鐘十一點半處理臨時提案現在我們請登記第一位陳昭之委員花園 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3404.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3417.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
11點截止收案再補充一下,請您宣告一下謝謝主席,有請洪部長等一下,11點截止收案,收臨時提案,這個都要念了有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3425.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3448.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
陳委員早部長早部長就川普的關稅海嘯即將來襲那你目前的掌握哪一些產業的勞工會受到最嚴重的衝擊你手邊有這樣的評估嗎就目前其實因為美方其實在提供相關的資訊其實陸陸續續都還有一些新的資訊我想大家都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3448.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3473.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
所以應該是說目前還沒有具體的沒有應變的那個措施不是當然有我剛才講的是說因為美方確實現在他的相關的做法上面還陸續在提供一些新的資訊但我目前是有認為確實來自一些傳統產業尤其是製造業出口的製造業可能會是受到影響比較重比方說機械 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3475.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3491.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
汽車零組件包括橡膠、塑膠、石化、水五金等等我們其實重點在關注這些產業相關的勞工希望你的政策能夠讓勞工比較安心但是我要講說現在已經有企業開始裁員停工放無薪假了你知道這件事嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3491.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3513.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我們其實最近在媒體上面有看到有看到這事情那我們現在把通報的機制給建立起來包括這些資訊的回報的機制給建立起來那媒體上面有目前聽聞的我們也會打電話過去我們也跟他們主動的去了解實際的狀況會如何來掌握這些最快速的掌握這些訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3514.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3537.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
我的目的是告訴你那星期一我們也一起到行政院去跟卓院長共商國事啦那因為本黨立場非常清楚我們一定是國家利益高於政黨利益啦面對這個難關大家一起要來度過那如果說為了因應這個關稅的衝擊假設勞動部有任何特別的預算你要提出來那我們覺得只要是這個合理而且預期有效那我們一定支持好嗎我就先告訴部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3539.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3559.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
部長那我們還是要回到今天的你的報告主題啦就業安定基金啦那這個你當然在善後啦你現在在善後當然我相信你會很頭大我不曉得你睡不睡了早不覺啦那當然這個總統講了用了一句不太下當的這個做法至少我們還有音樂不過那個部長你知道現在音樂會不能再用就業安定基金來處理了嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3562.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3570.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
是不是以後就業安定基金不可以用在這個只有我們會把就業安定基金的用途做出更清楚的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3572.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3599.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
好 部長那我現在想請教你因為剛剛幾個部會所有人都報告了許前部長的演唱會記錄曝光他的法律依據竟然就是提升勞工福祉那個部分那審計部也揪出前5年救安基金違法大概有7224萬是不符合他們用的是關聯性不高啦那關聯性不高就是不符合法定用途對嗎不符合法定用途嗎關聯性不高 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3600.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3626.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
不符合嘛 我跟委員說明審計部的報告他的最後的判定是關聯性不高因於修正收回但是否違法這部分還是需要由司法單位來去做確認這個你的意思說不符合法定用途就不等於違法你這個邏輯人民的可以接受嗎不符合法定的用途就不等於違法你這個邏輯大家可以接受嗎那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3629.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3656.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我要說的是說 審計部的判定是和關聯性不高當然他是跟救安基金的法定用途來去做對照 認為關聯性不高但是否是違法使用 是否違法營私是否人謀不章 這樣子的違法這部分當然這是另外一個層次部長 我想要繼續請教你七千多萬被亂花了 只需要修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3657.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3667.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那你要怎麼究責目前我要看到的是不是修正的部分因為這是確定的部分那你這個究責的部分因為你說這個是歸納科目不當啦那這個很離譜啊我覺得這個玩文字遊戲啊那早期的蔡英文總統的那個專機啊明明就是那個走私他就說是超買啊那你現在這個東西這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3681.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3690.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
歸納成不當用法這個歸納不當那就是說意思是說如果用就業安定性辦演唱會不行那我們換個名目就行了嗎你的意思就變這樣啊所以是歸納的名目不當成為你用的應該是我在臉書上面其實寫的 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3699.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3725.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
這個我上面的說明是說明什麼叫做修正修正的意思是什麼所以我這句話的意思是如果被判定修正的話過去可能會有哪些種樣態歸納科目不當是其中一種樣態我的整個完整的句子是這樣的敘述的我也有繼續看你講了一句是說你要先行政院爭取編列明年的公務預算來這個歸還就業安定基金這個很離譜 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3726.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3732.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
意思是說 勞動部亂花人民的錢 納稅錢你現在要叫人民的納稅 再挖一筆錢來補這個洞這樣對嗎 這樣對嗎這個預算能不砍嗎你先亂花了一筆人民錢 現在叫人民的納稅錢再來補這個洞這是你的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3747.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3772.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
陳委員我向你說明第一個我們其實必須 勞動部是一個行政部門我們必須要尊重也依照審計部的審計結果以及相關規範來辦理那過去如果有被判定為修正檢列並收回的話編列公務預算來歸電是做法之一被判定為修正檢列 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3774.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3784.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
要追回那編列公務預算規定是做法之一那我是一個行政部門我必須要依照審計的審計結果跟審計的規範來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3789.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3808.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我們還有別的方法部長你現在在說明這個但人民能不能接受我們來談預算法第25條政府不得於預算所定之外動用公款那有違背的支出應該以民法的規定請求返還那我現在要請教你勞動部有沒有對許明春謝怡榮提告 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3810.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3820.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
這是預算法跟陳委員說明我們接下來因為現在我知道大家很關心比方說決策者的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3822.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3848.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
對不對你先說你有沒有打算提告大家關心絕對責任目前我們在關於追究責任的部分我們會配合檢調跟司法的結果來追究部長你又來了檢調他追查的是一個圖利貪污的刑事責任我現在談的是這個民事責任根據預算法這個是兩件事請你要先分開這個根據這個預算法你可以去打民事官司討回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3849.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3868.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
你不要什麼事都丟給丟皮球給檢調檢調辦的是刑事的我沒有丟皮球給檢調所以我請問勞動部你有沒有要對許明春謝宜榮提告什麼時候提告我們相關的責任的追究我們會配合目前檢調跟司法都在辦我們會配合檢調跟司法的結果來去做追究 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3870.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3890.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
你就是不想按照預算法來處理民事行政的部分看來你是不會做這個提告你還是要納稅人權來補動那我現在下一題我問你這個警消組工會你在上一屆跟本屆立委的時候 您都有連署喔這個支持警消組工會的法案我想問你 你現在立場還一樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3894.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3903.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
部長因為你簽署過嘛你的立場還一樣嗎你不要跟我說時空背景不同你最新的一份是去年五月不到一年不到一年沒有時空背景不同的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3905.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3924.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那個跟陳委員說明目前其實針對這個相關組工會的問題目前我們這是兩院在做討論目前考試院還是目前考試院會是以公務員學會法的方式來去處理團結權是但是我說這一個議題是兩院在討論目前在行政跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3933.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3946.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
因為公會法是你管的那我可以問你的態度你的態度是什麼就是這個議題是兩院在討論那目前考試院還是希望用協會法來去處理包括警校跟公務員的團結權跟協商權 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3949.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3970.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
你擔心罷工權對不對你是擔心罷工權嗎你是擔心當初你連署那我先問你一件事老師可不可以組工會教師可以組工會現在教師是可以組工會的那教師沒有罷工權嘛對不對現在是組工會跟罷工權是可以討論的嘛第一個層次是你要不要讓他組工會然後再來才是說你要有哪些權利嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3970.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3995.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那你的態度是什麼所以我跟陳委員說明在這個議題上面兩院目前的討論是希望用協會法你是勞動部的 你一直在跟我說兩院啊你的工會法你在管啊 你的態度是 但是我是兩院的成員之一啊沒有 你就代表勞動部去談啊 談這件事啊對 但是我的意思是說我這樣講可不可以就是說如果警消不給予罷工權那你同意他們組工會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3997.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4022.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
陳委目前確實在兩院在討論這件事情的時候目前還是以公務員協會法現在都不當勞動部長了就是病院的部長了好啦那我問你齁你們家柯總召說警消組工會會造成中共侵台你同意嗎你同意嗎寫得很清楚喔你同意嗎你就告訴我你同意這個說法嗎我尊重柯總召的你尊重他的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4023.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4033.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
他這個抹紅基層這個員工警消的這個姓抹紅他們你還是打擊工會存在的意義你尊重他的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4034.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4060.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
陳委員我的意思是說這是柯總召他的認為我問你嘛 他的說法那你同意嗎你認同嗎我還是回到在兩院在討論這些相關議題的時候我們還是希望能夠盡量的去協助團結權跟協商權罷工是很不得已是最後手段你知道政府要爛到一個程度罷工權才會處理我問你你知不知道醫院已經有工會了你知道醫院有工會嗎那你擔心醫院會罷工嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4066.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4085.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這個上次我說那個盧媽媽的事情她叫盧媽媽你叫盧媽媽那你就回到家庭去服務就好了我問你說為了性平你好好在那個時候做一個宣傳這個性平那你也不肯你說你們總召做這個你們也不肯現在總召說這個會清台景霄的主公會也會清台 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4086.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4097.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
你也沒有態度喔?你怎麼這麼軟趴趴?你什麼都不敢講?你只敢罵我們家國昌喔?你只會罵國昌對不對?我不想講他的名字,他在去年審議宣的時候,他說他要保證三道讓國人有感 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4108.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4135.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我問大家我們的總預算被這樣亂刪亂砍你有感的嗎你憤怒嗎我知道已經憤怒到都已經坐不住了對不對人民當然憤怒啊你把這個錢拿去開演唱會拿去裝潢豪華的那個辦公室人民當然這個憤怒啊所以這個我覺得部長我再跟你最後講一句話我禮拜一進去行政院的時候因為卓院長說這一次的這是我面對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4137.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4159.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
關稅的那個海嘯我們有很多事要請立法院配合不是只有關稅部分有很多這個非關稅貿易障礙的部分還有一些法規要鬆綁他希望我們配合我跟他講了一句話我說好你要大家配合那你現在不要搞這個你在搞大罷免這個部分那如果說民間團體我們尊重他立法院我們尊重他但是行政官員你現在要立法院配合啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4160.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4181.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那我可不可以勸你一句話你聽聽看因為我也跟左院長這樣講的可不可以行政官員行政人員不要上台不要去上大罷免的舞台去高談闊論發佈假訊息你可以嗎你可以嗎你做得到嗎我這樣跟左院長講的第一個事情是這個罷免與否跟行政部門的關聯比較不大那你上台啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4183.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4190.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我上面講我其實是復述黃委員的說法因為這個保證三道讓國人有感這是他講的話國難當前我剛剛就跟你講你要拿公務預算去補一個公務人員亂花的錢這個錢不砍怎麼行啊所以車委員我還是要強調關於審計的部分我們必須尊重也依照審計的結果還有相關的規範來去做辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4208.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4222.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
好啦部長你要記得你是勞動部部長不要動不著跟我說病院病院兩個人一起談你都沒有自己的態度這樣行不行部長你自己要記得勞動部長好謝謝謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝部長我們都說尊重某某人的花園但是不同意他的看法我們大部分都這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4243.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4245.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
主席麻煩我們的勞動部部長林委員早部長早就業安定基金在113年底大規模大概就是350億元了那的確110年到112年這三年是因為疫情要動用這些來做紓困跟促進就業 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4272.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4283.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
的措施所以產生赤字那不過整體來看的話就安定基金的收入事實上是逐年成長的可是支出也是逐年成長甚至去年 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4284.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4310.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
11月還爆發出我們的就業安定基金使用的一個爭議所以就想問就是因為就業安定基金這個所謂提到遭受濫用這個姿勢體大所以部長你在去年12月26號上任的時候也召開了就業安定基金的管理會提出了討論幾天後在今年的1月3號就提出了三面六向 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4311.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4327.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
策進作為所以想問部長這三面六策進作為的政策宣示提出來至今大概三個月了那你那個落實狀況是如何好跟林理委員說明目前其實現在這個三面向六作為其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4328.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4350.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我們正在執行這是現在進行式那也包括這個我剛才說到我們會合理的來跟行政院來爭取編列公務預算這其實也是這次很多救安基金使用爭議的一個源頭那這部分我們也跟行政院在做討論了那也包括綠定用途使用範圍包括我們在收支管理辦法裡面這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4352.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4376.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
過去大家覺得有部分的項目比方說裡面有一個第12款其他大家覺得這好像過寬我們也會把這其他這一款直接給修掉讓它的範圍的規定能夠更加的清楚那包括這裡面其實我們目前其實也針對救安基金的支用的原則這些目前都已經相關的草擬已經訂定出來所以這些都是在進行中的 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4377.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4399.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
工作那我們就一定會照這個往前走部長大概什麼時候因為現在監會安排這個樣子的議題因為從去年發生到現在那你這些的測驗作為看起來事實上是蠻具體的那大概什麼時候可以有一個讓國人比較安心的一個成效你自己預估 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4404.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4426.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
現在我們這些相關的法規命令的修訂應該目前都在修訂中嘛對不對應該這一兩個月應該就會年終之後應該就會完全所以這個會期大概就已經會有一些具體的修訂完成我們目前在宣導品的正法管理原則還有救安基金的審議要點目前都已經訂定完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4427.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4449.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那還有應該是還有包括像剛剛說的這個收支管理運用辦法跟這個志願原則因為這個要抱怨所以這其實也在程序中所以未來所謂增加公開資訊這些東西都會羅列成這已經進行了甚至都已經在救安基金的管理會裡面之前都已經納入討論了就是已經拿資訊公開來討論了 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4451.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4468.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那省紀部也因為這樣針對109年到113年這五年當中的救安基金的張冊查賬就認為勞動部過去五年運用拍形象影片然後經營臉書還有辦理僑親活動跟發春節的紅包跟購物購山節禮物 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4474.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4491.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
這些都不屬於救安基金的法定用途可是實際上各部會也都會去因為我們還是要讓人家知道說我們到底做了什麼事情一定也會有所謂的臉書粉專和我們的形象的影片製作只是他認為是現在不屬於放在救安基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4492.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4511.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
就要來問因為要填補這個5年7224萬的基金缺口有人指控就是說這是全民買單可是我說剛剛講其他部會也應該辦只是今天放的項目不同所以我不知道部長對這個事情你的看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4512.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4537.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
跟林委員說明因為確實現在審計部在3月21號給我們相關的判定是認為這7000多萬過去在救安基金的支用和救安基金的用途的關聯不高希望我們修正跟收回那我們也必須遵照審計的這個結果來辦理那過去被判定修正減劣跟收回其實當然編列公務運算規定是做法之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4539.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4553.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那但是我覺得具體的做法當然我們也願意再跟主計跟審計來去做討論那可是我說因為勞動部是一個行政部門其實我們有義務要遵照審計部審計的結果跟規範來去 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4558.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4578.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
不管是做回應也好或者是依照這個來做相關的作為也好我們是一個行政部門我們有義務要來這樣做可是具體的作為還有沒有更多可能性當然這部分我們可以再來我們願意來跟審計部主計來做討論但是編列公務預算規定是過去在處理這些相關問題裡面的做法之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4582.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4598.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
救安基金事實上收入百分之八十是來自移工雇主每月按照繳納的救安安定費就安定費剩下的就是基金的支息所以法定用途是在促進國民就業跟提升勞工福祉 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4600.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4624.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
在處理有關外國人聘僱的這些事務上所以想問郝部長在基金運用上有13.43%用在本來政府應該負擔的移工、聘僱跟管理的行政支柱可是86.57%是用在本國勞工跟企業主的各項補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4625.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4634.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
的還要紓困上所以對於移工的雇主跟本國勞工跟企業主採取兩套的運用的邏輯所以想問部長這個是合理的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4635.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4662.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我想其實那時候在訂定救護法的時候為什麼會把促進國民就業納入在法定的自用的用途裡面其中一個原因就是認為其實移工的一些聘僱可能會對本國的就業市場也會產生一些影響所以從這個移工的聘僱的過程裡面有收取到的救安費也用在其實協助本國勞工的這個就業促進上面主要是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4662.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4687.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
主要是這個用途 我講的是比例啦 因為這個落差很大所以有沒有在這次的救安基金檢討中 我認為事實上是要一併討論去檢討因為這個落差比例 因為畢竟事實上當初安基費那怎麼去促進外國移工在台灣的一些的相關的措施是不是應該 我現在看到經費事實上是落差蠻大的啦所以應該要去做考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4688.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4709.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那在過去2008年到2010年的金融海嘯也好或者是2019到2022的疫情期間都動用救安基金來做產業的紓困跟就業促進甚至包括衛福部的長照的喘息服務跟我們疫情期間的移工的檢疫跟移民署非法滯留移工子女的遣返的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4710.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4736.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
甚至有學者說是不是應該要用救安基金來貼補我們的照顧育嬰津貼所以想問部長救安基金應該不是政府的應該不但是政府的小金櫃可是也是救火隊因為有時候有需求像疫情來了紓困甚至要怎麼去促進這疫情期間的就業所以動之救安基金提案的理由就是會五發八門所以來自 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4737.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4766.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
各部會政府各部會甚至來自民間的倡議所以部長說如何確保救安基金的管理會面對這些提案的時候能夠抵抗各界的期待跟壓力來秉持做出比較好的判斷就像委員現在其實列出來你列出右邊的這個圖的第五條這應該就是我們的收支保管運用辦法我們其實這一次的修訂裡面會把現在裡面給有一個第12我們會直接把這個其他有關支出給刪掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4768.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4789.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我們會把這個直接給刪掉也就是說大家覺得可能過去這部分會不會口太太大了或者太有彈性了我們會直接把這個刪掉所以我們接下來是希望就按經驗之用應該要更密切的來跟剛剛那三項包括促進國民就業包括提供勞工福祉也包括外國人聘服管理相關業務所需更緊密的確認連結 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4791.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4806.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
所以我們會在收支管理用辦法上面來去強化這部分的連結比較能夠去確認救安基金的使用不會超出這個法定的用途之外這部分我們又會用機制上面或者是這些相關的辦法來去確認這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4808.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4834.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
所以最後本席還是希望救安基金對於外國勞工跟僱主的分配使用上還是需要考慮到合理性公平性而且希望勞動部是不是可以釐清我們救安基金的支出範圍避免腐爛他制度上保護救安基金的管理的時候可能就是要獨立行使的職權來抗拒壓力所以能夠完備救安基金的整個管理的法制作業來獻起達標再麻煩部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4839.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4844.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
謝謝 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長那接下來我們請陳清威委員質詢謝謝主席 謝謝委員 謝謝官員 我想先請審計部 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4867.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4891.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
你好這邊第一個我是要問的是我今天有幫您印出來這是您之前做出來的一個救安基金支出項目上面很明顯的寫了衛福衛福基金設置目的還有基金用途規定我先幫您把衛福圈起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4893.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4907.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
所以您從3月的第一份報告就寫到說救安基金呢經過你們的查視未符合基金設置目的還有基金用途規定情形昨天來了兩份報告 您知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4908.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4932.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
我知道我幫你比較一下左邊跟右邊的報告一開始的報告您還是維持這個版本你說衛福我也請這個CHAT GPT幫大家翻譯翻譯什麼叫做用途衛福啊用途衛福的意思就是說實際使用方法跟原本規定設計或允許的用途不相符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4933.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4962.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
結果呢 這個你們的聯絡人貴單位的聯絡人忽然在兩三小時後把這個第一份報告收回傳了第二份報告來那這兩份報告唯一修改的地方就在用途未符 用途規定未符這些字全部變成關聯性不高那我再幫大家翻譯翻譯關聯性不高的意思就是說雖然可能沒有違規或誤用的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4967.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4968.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
那時間可以暫停我們的電腦 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4996.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4997.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
電腦斷了可以啊好時間可以繼續所以呢最後就改成關聯性不高我想問一下你們這兩三個小時內到底發生什麼事因為你三月到現在都是說衛福 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5023.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5046.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
結果第一份版本也是未服後來改成關聯性不高請問有沒有什麼上級的施壓要配合勞動部報告委員就是沒有上級施壓那我們審計機關是獨立機關也不會配合勞動部那跟委員報告就是我們會文字處理是因為我們後面在校對的時候發現一個問題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5048.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5076.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
我們跟勞動部來來回回的公文其實從去年底一直到今年歷次包括我們的審核通知包括勞動部後面的申複還有我們在合附回去的公文來來回回其實文字啊大概這兩個文字都有在用意思是說在你們從去年年底至今因為我這邊手上有一本你們跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5078.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5100.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
勞動部申付的資料我早上8點10分才能才拿到啦謝謝部長讓我這個培養速讀的習慣很快就把他速讀完了那這個你們更改是因為說後來覺得部分是關聯性不高那還是有未符的嗎還是其他本來你全部覺得是未符合現在全部都變關聯性不高你可以舉例嗎在民系裡面齁其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5106.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5130.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我特別把這個整個背景稍微報告一下就是因為就業安定基金他有一個收支保管及運用辦法那剛剛部長有特別說明說他的第五條的第一項是規定基金的用途在現行條文裡面他的第十二款他就有一個其他有關支出那我們在審計的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5132.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5153.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這個JOND基金這個收支保管運用辦法他的解釋是主管機關在解釋就是勞動部在解釋所以就會有一個很大的行政裁量行政裁量這個就是剛剛我們我一開始報告說勞動部願意進行改正把這一款拿掉我覺得在審計外部監督來看他就是一個進步的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5154.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5168.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那產經部可以稍微告訴我們一下您列出來這些裡面當然包括演唱會啦包括印紅包袋 包括送禮包括影片的製作 媒宣啊等等您覺得關聯性最不高的是哪一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5170.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5183.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這個是有些是很主觀啦因為跟委員報告就是比如說剛剛講他的基金的用途其實就很確定三大項一個是促進國民就業第二個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5185.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5208.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
外國人聘僱管理跟許可還有提升勞工福祉及勞工權益的輔助那我們洋洋灑灑列出來我們修正的這7224萬餘元這個所以你的意思是說其實我幫您做了這張表跟剛剛講的那三個理由您都覺得關聯性其實不高但是沾上邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5211.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5218.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
是吧從我們因為這個部分我們會希望那個勞動部來說勞動部其實他們在生物內容列舉出來謝謝謝謝謝謝沈基部那我們請勞動部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5227.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5253.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
先幫我放一下這兩段影片這兩段影片是20天前,我在黃國昌委員後面諮詢勞動部回審計部的立場到底是每一分每一行都浪費到的錢要做回來還是幫過去所犯的錯誤再問過是非其實看迴函是最清楚啦我這樣直接跟部長說好了齁如果這個不是密件的話,那是不是請會後勤勞動部來提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5255.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5276.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
呃 應該是可以吧好 可以嗎 好好 下一段可不可以也給我們未還委員會的委員可以啊還有我們國民黨黨團我們也想看這個七千萬您到底要如何發揮你的魄力把它追討回來好 那這個是我們的責任因為民眾希望可以追討回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5279.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5285.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
昨天您也跟黃國昌委員說您會去找許明春部長溝通請問您至今溝通了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5287.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5315.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我想跟陳委員說明包括你剛才在這個影片上面的內容其實我們在審計部的最後給我們的審計的認定是在3月21號我們收到然後3月28號我們正式的回函給審計部同意審計部要我們修正的這件事情所以3月28號是禮拜五所以3月28號隔天的應該是禮拜一或禮拜二其實我就把3月28號我們回給審計部的函提供給 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5317.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5330.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
包括黃委員包括各個在各政黨跟委員會3月28號的函等於是我們最後我們比較完整的包括我們的立場跟我們的改進我們其實當時就已經提供了 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5331.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5358.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
好那我今天是8點10分收到的啦收到這一份當然裡面包括了很多您跟審計部之間種種的回覆因為您說有一些部分您想要申付他還是跟救安基金有相關性等等的我這邊稍微揭露幾個奇聞共賞我等一下也會放到我的社群讓大家知道說其實國人最在意的這個演唱會啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5362.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5386.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
我們這個演唱會其實神蹟部有幫我們算出來演唱會總共花了368萬那您有在這個申付內容上面寫到說因為這個演唱會其實大家在網路上都有看到新聞媒體也有看到2.5小時的演唱會許明春一個人唱了半小時並且旁邊還有很專業的舞者等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5387.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5404.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那這是國人非常在意的368頁但是您幫他寫的身負理由是可以促進國民就業我也想知道這個可以促進國民就業您的KPI到底是哪裡來的啊再來還有一個整個入處的party喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5406.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5421.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
勞動部僑簽典禮活動勞動部入處紀念勞動部僑簽政策宣導影片這三個加起來總共是415萬但是呢大家從我們現在的slide上面看得很明顯 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5422.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5442 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
你的入處影片 你說這個活動415萬是回顧勞動政策推動的歷程但大家看到那天是星光閃閃 有非常多的握手 合照等等上面這個許民進部長是有專業的這個妝髮 形象照 還有這個舞裙等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5443.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5465.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那我是想知道說你當然幾乎我看了這一大本你7224萬幾乎都身負了並且都講到說的確是跟國民促進就業有相關還有這個性別平權宣導有相關禁止歧視等等的你是怎麼評估出來的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5466.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5489.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我跟陳仁說明我們在申複的內容裡面主要是同仁是回顧當初為什麼這些計畫執行其實相關的思考 當初為什麼為什麼這樣思考那這些補充的說明提供給審計部但我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5490.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5499.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
會有一些委員對當初的這些思考會有不同的看法這部分委員尊重那最後審計部當然就是判定審計部就是判定 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5500.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5524.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
關聯度不高不該使用救安基金這部分我們當然必須尊重審計部的判定我說實話裡面有部分的做法就我來說如果是我主觀的來說其實你不認同我也不會這樣做這是你同仁一起寫的申複印同仁是把當初在那個時間點上面為什麼會做這樣子的選擇或為什麼做這樣子的規劃的說明讓審計部知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5529.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5557.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
好那這個是您給我們的新聞稿上週我們本來禮拜三應該要開勞動部的委員會嘛所以我來翻譯一下您的這個新聞稿總共分成四大段第一段是說審計部要勞動部收回7224萬元認為勞動部就是在亂花錢但是您現在還在身負這個我知道整本都是你身負的理由那第二個大家最不能接受的地方就是小偷從納稅人的身上偷了錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5559.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5572.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
來辦這個東西300多萬的演唱會說是促進就業415萬的橋籤party說跟就業安定有相關已經被說名不符實從3月開始說未符合未符合申請資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5573.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5600.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
最後還是用納稅人的錢來補這個洞這是你上面寫的未來距離向行政院爭取編列年度公路預算歸還就業安定基金這就是大家不能接受的地方啊那當然你的這個新聞稿還有好大部分在講你未來會進行改革但是你對於人民最關心的亂花錢的細節到底是什麼你要怎麼追討反而是不到一半的篇幅啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5601.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5623.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
這個我相信不是國人想看到的新聞稿所以我可以跟你說明這一個新聞稿的內容主要是我們在收到審計部3月21號的判定之後其實我們的回應我還是必須強調審計部的判定給我們的判定是認為關聯性不高必須修正予以收回那如果從審計的規範來說的話從過去審計的規範來說因為它不是判定剔除 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5628.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5655.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那他是判定修正予以收回那簡單來說就是他認為這不應該是救安基金使用不應該使用在救安基金應該是使用在公務預算那所以從勞動部的角度我們是一個行政部門我們必須按照審計部給我們的判定來往下執行我們必須來做他所謂的修正檢列並收回那編列公務預算規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5656.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5672.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
是過去被判定為修正跟收回的做法之一當然我們現在我們也願意我知道現在大家對這個看法會有一種覺得好像是不是全民買單或者是又是用納稅人的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5673.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5698.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
可是就審計相關的規範這個審計的結果跟規範勞動部必須遵守因為現在的確是有人被收押剛起訴他也是花到了救安基金的錢所以如果你還要用公務預算來支付這筆錢還回去我想這個是大家常識上是不能接受的啦陳委員我跟你說明當然現在大家我說大家關心可能會不會有個人的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5700.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5721.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我們說我其實也不斷的在說明勞動部我們會配合檢調跟司法來去做如果有個人責任的所以不該從公務預算的最後你不會從公務預算是嗎如果真的司法判定下來是有比方說欽佔那該去追回 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5722.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5732.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
也許就該追回因為大家對您的期待蠻高您今天上任的時候說您對救安基金是絕不護短絕不護短到現在都沒有改變但是現在很多揪出不服的是審計部去送檢調的也是審計部倒是沒有看到勞動部有什麼內部調查或是勞動部來送檢調 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5742.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5766.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我跟陳委員說這段時間檢調都在查我們是全力配合檢調不只檢調在查包括監察院都在查但是因為現在大家關心的是這些相關法律責任的問題這些法律責任有沒有不法有沒有不法的隱私有沒有不法的這些事情當然他也是必須由司法來做判決你剛才講的謝前分署長他也是現在是在司法的過程裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5766.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5780.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
是是是這個是剛剛林月琴委員也有跟你講到你說有六項策進作為但是這個我看了一般網友啦上班族啊他們說如果他們是這樣子寫的話肯定是被老闆電死的我也念幾個給你聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5782.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5803.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
你說你未來有六項策進作為其中有一項是使基金使用範圍明確化不可致用於與業務無關或者是非公務用途的項目這句話簡直就是常識一般常識 聽君一席話如聽一席話再來 民定不得採購年節禮盒 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5805.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5819.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
這也是一般常識更何況你的申付內容有一個寫得很特別他買了年節禮盒你的申付內容理由是說提升多元單位能見錄還有商品價值這個是113年部長春節禮盒設計30萬然後這個你還幫他申付你這邊已經寫說不得採購年節禮盒結果你的申付理由還有這一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5830.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5854.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那再來囉 各計畫應該確實依照業務性質及宣導對象評估達成要效益 何時偏略廣宣預算這也是你寫的 這不是知識 這不是常識嗎但是你剛剛的生父理由也有說我這個演唱會是有促進到就業所以我真的不知道你的生父理由到底跟你未來要趕下來的計畫到底搭不搭得起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5855.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5873.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
還有你寫基金管理會開會會提升計劃科目之用明細所以之前都沒有之前你們委員會都沒有提供計劃科目之用明細陳委員我跟你說明剛才說申複上面的內容就是業務單位他其實是在針對當時為什麼做這樣子的選擇進行說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5878.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5901.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
所以確實當時包括他當時可能認為說他的年節的禮盒的採購他採購的對象可能是我們因為勞動部下面有有輔導一些多元的單位是跟他們來採購當時是這樣但是接下來已經很清楚我們已經很清楚規範不可以再拿救安基金來採購年節禮盒不管是不是跟誰採購都不行我們現在已經做出很清楚的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5901.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5924.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
但您的六項經濟之後我希望可以更大刀闊斧一點因為這個在網友的眼中看起來真的是一般公司很common sense的規定確實過去有一些規範模糊的地方所以你會看到一些大家其實覺得會不符合大家嘗試的或者是不符合期待的部分我們現在就是用直接白紙黑字的明定把這些東西絕對就禁止了 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5925.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5932.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
好那我們來講一下因為剛剛您的身負條件其實裡面寫到很多都已經跟促進就業相關改善勞工平權減少歧視等等結果這邊我想是全國人民會覺得的確勞動部部長可以幫得上忙可以改善勞工我們有一個國家發展委員會的會議出席成員是包括了所有的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5948.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5963.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我幫你們精算了一下 你們是唯一一個部門 連續102次 五屆的部長全部都不是本人出席 有的是他人代理出席 有人甚至不出席 我細數給你聽國家發展委員會第25次到第38次 國防局部長應到未到 全部請人代理 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5971.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5980.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
39到50次林美珠部長一樣陰道未到有時候請人代理都沒有再來部長許明春坐最久第51次會議開到第120次會議全部由他人代理但是他有空去開演唱會然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5987.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5992.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
再來是何沛山部長他從121次會議到124次也是應到未到然後再來是您的兩次125到126您也應到未到請他人代理我們來看一下會議的內容會議的內容有婦女及中高齡就業 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6005.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6028.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
有這個少子化有勞動部共同提報投資青年政策執行人口移民政策聘外國專業人才你這樣子從上看到下到底哪一點跟促進就業不相關你這個正式的會議不去然後你再幫救安基金寫身負我覺得這個是國人不能接受的所以這是兩件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6029.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6057.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
申付是審計部要求我們要做申付的說明的我覺得不用把這兩件事情混在一起我先給你看一下你這個125跟126次啦125他的題目是產業轉型所以一定是有人要轉職有人會失業有人會需要即職的訓練第126次的會議呢是關於職場健康還有勞動保險年金服務永續等等我想跟你是再相關不過的那你看一下其他人 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6058.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6062.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
環境部部長去了文化部部長去了衛福部部長去了其他的部長都到了但是在這個過程中我是很不好意思放您這張照片但是您的這個宣講剛程道志委員員看了 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6077.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6098.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
也去了 您當民主的側翼我也很希望用您這張照片可是上面的新聞標題是寫說您願當台灣勞工的靠山因為這是您當初說盡忠職守 恪遵國家法令結果勞動部卻變成一個連續國家發展會議所有主題都是跟勞動部相關的喔連續102次部長親自衛道的部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6104.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6113.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我們剛剛查了一下 比方剛剛提到的12月19號我們沒有到過那天在立法院裡面審勞動部的預算就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6114.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6135.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那你下次可以到我覺得當然如果有時間我當然會盡量到我們期待你下次可以到剛剛包括剛剛陳委員其實提到的這幾個主題其實我們在行政院也常常跟不管國發會或者是跟經濟部或相關的部會其實很密集的在做討論並不是我沒有親身到這個會議上就代表對於這個議題不重視並不是這樣就像剛剛那個會議的時間其實我們是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6139.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6157.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這個委員會裡面我知道 但其他部長到了所以我這邊也稍微給您看一下其他部長蠻重視的 是我也希望說您未來也可以當一個民主的部長然後把您部長的職責也都做好如果沒有其他更重要的事情的話當然我們也要當然應該自己親自出席 對不起交給我最後兩個問題因為就是有人拜託幫忙問好 這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6162.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6180.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
低硬度的MOU 去年我們2月就簽了MOU但是11月勞動部召開記者會說未來每兩個月就會開一次會議那必要的話就線上會議所以今年1月我們應該要開結果今年1月沒開你1月的時候說2月會開那至今開了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6181.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6203.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我們第一次工作會議已經開完了我們也開了第二次工作會議前的會前會那目前跟台印雙方在印度移工的引進上面其實大家溝通是很密切的那目前的狀況是因為包括委員們都比較很重視我們其實職聘的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6204.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6223.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那所以現在目前的階段是我們也在更進一步的去了解這個應方他其實相關的聘僱的系統他們有一套系統那應方也在了解我們其實對於職聘的期待其實大家關心的是現在是在會前會已經開完了那現在是要在約下一次的工作會大概是幾月 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6224.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6244.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這要看跟運方這要看運方的討論 對可是跟運方的互動是很密切的不是責任在運方這是雙方可是跟運方的溝通包括跟運方的討論是很密切的所以你們以後會按照你們原本約定每兩個月開會照樣跟我們當然希望盡量的但是現在是會前會開完 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6245.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6271.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那大家正在彼此熟悉對方一些細節的操作的做法所以年底這個進度你覺得可以如期完成嗎我們希望假設一切順利因為前面只是一千名的小規模的示範那我們當然希望順利所以也是因為希望順利所以我們其實跟硬方私底下面再去了解他們做法上面的細節這個是很密切的 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6271.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6300.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
好我希望下次還是可以維持兩個月可以開會一次就依照你們的MOU最後一個問題就是之前劉建國委員曾經提出你們這個事辦計畫彈性運價事辦計畫非常的糟糕所以曾經簡略還有凍結100萬的預算待改善之後書面報告可以動之林淑芬委員也說勞動部不願意聽取民間團體的意見一意孤行成為一個註定失敗的事辦計畫那我在想現在小子化非常的嚴重剛國發 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6302.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6308.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
就是您之前的部長可能沒有親自到場的這個也討論過這件事國發會橫向溝通非常重要嘛請問一個月內可以給我一個書面書面報告等等我會寫一個臨時提案假使我們從公部門開始來做這樣子的事辦計畫您是否願意跟各部門做一個溝通呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6324.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6350.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
因為現在很多民間的單位都希望以日來作為這個申請的單位我們現在確實是在規劃來擴大跟過去事辦的範圍又不一樣其實我們希望來擴大規劃的階段但是你是公部門你如果覺得以日為計算並且以申作則並且從公部門先行我想是一個不錯的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6350.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6377.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
當然如果公部門要先來做我們當然不會反對可是我們現在在想的是民間部門這裡面有幾個條件包括裁員包括裁員的部分包括一些排班的做法上面怎麼讓勞資雙方其實可以都在一定的可運作的範圍之下這個我們在私底下溝通是當然謝謝 朝委謝謝謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6384.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6390.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
接下來我們請王玉明委員質詢邱政經委員質詢完後 我們休息十分鐘好 謝謝主席我要先請我們審計部的副審計長李順寶副審計長王委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6410.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6427.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
副審計長您好我想就教您我們審計法第21條的規定是什麼審計法第21條主要規定說審計機關對於各機關違背預算或有關法令的不當支出得踢除追繳制 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6429.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6431.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
得剔除追繳資嘛那請問你們根據審計法第21條你的去認定他的違法需不需要經過司法機關還是審計部就可以進行認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6443.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6467.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
要看個別的個案的案情像有些案情他其實他涉及刑事責任那刑事責任就包括從檢調的偵查處理然後最後提起公訴然後進入法院的審理因為那個相關的案情會影響最後財務責任如果他有涉及財務責任他的範圍跟金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6469.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6488.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
另外一部分是監察院他如果已經立案調查他那個調查結果也會影響我們對相關剔除金額的判定有沒有你進行認定的 有審計部進行認定的過去你在監督中央跟地方 有嘛對不對另外跟委員特別報告就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6490.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6508.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我們21條訂的這個條文的背景當初是在民國60我印象中是60年的時候訂的當時因為對個別公務人員他的行政救濟跟保障的相關法制比較不健全那當時沒有相關的法制 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6509.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6529.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
但是現在我們如果直接採剔除去處理其實在實務上會有很多困難因為剔除去處理的話根據審計法78條規定是要限期追繳也就是說我們課則機關因為我們是追繳對象是要機關去追繳限期是三個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6530.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6554.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
然後機關要做出行政處分那現在的法治這個行政處分到個人到公務人員身上他會尋各種救濟程序包括保訓會包括訴願然後行政法院訴訟那個就會拖很長實際上就會有這個問題所以你們就變成不敢使用嗎不敢使用剔除嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6555.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6572.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
還是很多案情非常單純好 那我就要直接問你了針對這一次整個救安基金違法使用這個七千多萬你們一開始在認定上面是用途規定衛福也就是違反了它原來的使用規定對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6574.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6587.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
曾經用過這個文字不是曾經你們一直到昨天下午的2點55分送出來的4月8號2點55分送出來的報告其實都還是用途未符 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6588.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6602.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
一直都是這樣子但是在4點37分的時候我們收到的報告突然就改成了關聯性不高你們這個是不是就是關關相護想要去大事化小 避重就輕是要幫勞動部解套 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6605.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6632.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
因為如果是用途未符的話那就是要依據你審計法第21條它已經違反了法令所以依法你們應該是要剔除應該是要追繳但是你們為什麼過去都是用這個現在突然變成關聯性不高關聯性不高有沒有違法呢有沒有違法使用呢用途未符是不是就是違反法令規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6634.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6654.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
你知不知道這個名稱被改變了你們審計部的報告誰下令的沒有誰下令是我們在短短的時間改變喔這怎麼可能沒有人下令呢沒有這個是因為我們誰改的嘛你改的沒有我們是重新再核對包括說勞動部要求你改的沒有跟委員報告沒有這是我們自己來做處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6655.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6674.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那你們就是自己審計部的職權 你們自己治降你們的職權啊該引用的沒引用 該剔除的不剔除然後幫勞動部開脫 用一個關聯性不高所以關聯性不高 他就不用剔除 也不用追繳所以就可以重新再去由公務預算裡面來編列 是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6675.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6691.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
不是 那個跟委員報告其實我們修正那為什麼要改變嘛 你告訴我為什麼用途不符就是用途不符就是沒有按照規定嘛那你為什麼要改變成關聯性不高嘛理由何在嘛 你講一個理由出來是 跟委員報告就是我們在給 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6693.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6719.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
勞動部的審核通知還有歷次勞動部深入內容其實來來反反這相關的文字其實這兩個文字都有用到包括用途不符因為一直都是用用途規定未符其實你們一開始的措辭還蠻強烈的而且你們還說要追繳要剔除追繳你們回去掉錄影帶在去年底的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6719.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6743.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
你們公開在院會接受答詢的時候你們是說要剔除而且要追究而且要追究相關人員的責任結果到今天委員會正式專案要去討論的時候你們說了你們變成是關聯性不高也沒有剔除也沒有追究相關的用詞在整篇通篇的報告裡面通通都消失了被消失 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6745.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6752.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
你們審計部 你們本來就應該要擔負起你們應有的職權為什麼現在變成是輕輕放下 關關相護呢委員 這個以這個維法的事證這麼的明確連謝英勇本人都已經承認犯罪包含在這七千萬裡面結果你們竟然用一個關聯性不高 當事人都承認違法你用一個關聯性不高來包裹這七千多萬 這合理嗎 這對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6771.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6789.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
跟委員報告就是剛剛個案涉及刑責部分如果以後確定判決我還要跟你追究另外一個另外一個就是演唱會的支出這一筆你們為什麼沒有追究呢這個涉案的事情這麼的明顯完全違反使用規定你這個也要用關聯性不高這是徹徹底底的違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6796.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6803.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
辦個人演唱會跟救安基金的使用這個在你們審計部的眼中是關聯性不高而已嗎這不是違法不當使用嗎為什麼不引用你的審計法第21條去究責 去剔除你連這一筆你都不敢剔除你說其他它有一些文宣品 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6816.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6832.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
加減跟勞動部的業務有關請問這一筆呢這花的都是這個整個都在做演唱會的錢啊你審計部為什麼這一筆不敢追究這一筆為什麼不敢挑出來就直接用剔除用追繳去追究個人責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6833.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6843.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
而且你這一筆你有送司法嗎?有送檢調嗎?有送監察院嗎?根本不知道 這個有送監察院這個有送監察院?那既然都送監察院 你在你這個審計的權責裡面為什麼這一筆你不敢主動去剔除?這個怎麼會只是關聯性不高呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6852.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6872.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
根據這個 違法這麼的明確影帶製作 影像拍攝這些東西跟救安基金的使用用途 跟勞工的就業這個會有 在你們的審計的看法裡面這個會有關聯嗎這完全不關聯吧所以你的行政權 你的審計權現在等於是 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6874.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6903.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
放著不敢用嘛如果按照你剛剛的描述就是你要等監察院認定的你要等這個檢調認定的但是我看過你們對於地方政府的剔除啊有一些你們說剔除就剔除啊那我再看司法機關跟監察院的沒有啊那你這是雙標欸怎麼會聽到這件事情就轉彎呢不會不會轉彎不會轉彎要不要剔除涉及司法部分最後確定判決我們還是會追究財務責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6905.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6920.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
你這一個部分你都不敢從你審計的角度就是去追究責任你們這個就是輕輕放下嘛你沒有上面的壓力嗎有沒有人來告訴你這件事情該怎麼辦怎麼會一開始你們的態度那麼強硬到現在整個都縮回去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6921.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6936.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我們審計部始終如意啦從頭到尾包括你沒有始終如意連報告都去偷偷修改那個字眼了什麼關聯性不高你還你這個審計部我希望你審計部啊各部會有各部會有權責做錯的事情該糾正的該是你審計部的該去剔除的該去追繳的這是你的責任啦是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6942.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6957.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
你們要硬起來 這個368.7萬我要求審計部你們要去剔除跟追繳你們回去好好再審議一次啊這個部分為什麼連動都不敢動我覺得這有問題啊不要讓人家覺得你想要護航這個前部長啊我也不希望這後面有人下令啊去做這樣的事情啊因為追繳一定會追繳到許明春個人的責任啊這是他做的權責啊 那為什麼謝義勇有事許明春沒有事 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6972.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6980.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
對 但你沒有引用你的21條去剔除跟追繳嘛我現在在講的是這個嘛你不敢動用你的審計權嘛這個就是問題啊這個部分我希望這個副審議長你回去後跟你們審計長報告今天在委員會裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6987.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6993.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
我就是要揪出有這樣的事情我希望你們該剔除的就是要剔除 該追繳要追繳因為這個是國家的錢 好嗎不容是個人去濫用之後 又不追繳還要用公務的基金 然後來墊付這個全民也不會同意的好 你先請回 接下來我要問這個勞動部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7014.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7033.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
部長同樣的問題我問你許民村開演唱會的這三百多萬該不該剔除追繳追究個人責任剔除與否這當然是審計我已經要求他們一定要剔除那站在勞動部的立場呢你這一筆錢你的救援基金就這樣子被濫用掉了嗎要不要去追繳我們從審計這邊得到的是修正檢列 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7039.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7061.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我在問你的立場 部長不要閃躲 你在外面去講話的時候 演講的時候 慷慨激昂 民主側翼來到委員會的時候 要你表態的時候 你都支支吾吾我沒有閃躲 我從頭到尾我們的態度就是尊重審計部的判定你勞動部有自己的態度啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7062.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7084.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
從一開始這一份大家現在引用的是審計部的報告來的我們從頭一開始從12月到現在的態度都是我們會尊重審計部的判定尊重審計部的判定審計部說要剔除追繳你就會依法辦理這個如果審計部他判定剔除的話當然在法律上面我們就會有責任要去追繳 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7085.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7110.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
你會依法辦理這變成是法律對於機關的要求了另外接下來我要問你高關稅底下的這個衝擊高關稅這個是現在勞工非常擔心的一個問題因為它衝擊的範圍可能可以到2008年的金融海嘯那麼的大但是我看到現在勞動部裡面端出來的措施我只看到一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7111.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7138.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
而且這一項裡面你的雇用安定措施裡面呢你只有補助橡膠製造機械設備其他運輸工具還有零件製造業為什麼是設定這幾個行業你們對外公告的只有這一些你們要去補貼長達6個月減班休息勞工的薪資差了50%跟文說明我們的相關的措施不是只有這一項而已當然不是只有這一項那還有什麼你可以告訴大家來 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7140.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7163.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
第一個當然現在包括如果有發生減班休息的話我們其實給減班休息有相關的充電債出發那我們現在也在調整跟檢討包括這些相關的適用的範圍包括適用的對象包括是不是要做相關的加碼那所以現在當然不是只有這個雇用安定措施的這一項你們對外講的就是這一項我們對外講並不是只講這一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7166.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7194.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
那還有什麼呢?你有補助經營就業計畫嗎?我也沒看到啊有有補助公部門擴大經營計畫嗎?有有2019新冠疫情嗎?2019新冠疫情所有的措施你們現在通通都有跟王老師說明其實我們現在相關的措施包括對青年的包括對失業勞工包括對可能會減班休息的我們計畫都列出來那我們現在是希望要再把它規劃一個因應關稅的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7195.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7211.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
因為比方說像這個新冠疫情的時候主要針對的是服務業服務業的勞工可是這一次可能因應關稅不只過大它的業別也不同它這次可能是製造業是出口業跟過去是服務業的狀況不同所以我們要規劃一個因應關稅的版本新冠疫情的時候是556億的救安基金加150億的就業保險基金總共是706億 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7222.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7243.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
你們現在你說你的高關稅衝擊你會擴大比新冠疫情你的措施還要多結果你現在是150億那請問你是怎麼做的我跟委員說明我們目前現在是先先框150億但如果還需要還要再擴大的話目前以救安基金跟救老基金所以你剛剛講的就是假的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7244.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7257.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
沒有假的為什麼是假的?一百五十億為什麼可以做到這個新冠疫情的706億的事情而且還比他多這就假的跟委員說明虛的其實這都要看產業實質衝擊的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7259.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7274.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
所以表示你們現在還沒有準備好嗎你說有 其實都是只是一個方向而已不是只是方向 現在這些措施我們要規劃一個因應我們現在正在規劃因應關稅的版本所以還沒有定稿嗎 還沒有定案嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7276.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7286.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
因為現在的關稅的衝擊我們還要看實際的狀況所以我跟瑋瑜說這包括可能還會有地區別的不同所以還沒有具體方案出來不是沒有具體方案有但是這裡面的情境跟參數我們其實現在還在看現在實質發生的狀況來做要因地制宜那我就問你就是這一次因應2025高關稅的衝擊你的方案會完全比照2019新冠疫情有的一個都不會少而且還會再加碼是這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7307.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7330.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
呃不不只是不會這個要能夠用得上的因為當時真的有些情境是不同的比方說當時很多是服務業現在有很多是製造業所以當我們要來協助製造業可能他會受影響的失業勞工他要去希望雇主擴大去聘用他的時候這也會要看當地因為你很難叫一個台南的勞工他到台北 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7330.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7335.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我知道 現在不管 你要安勞工的心所以勞工會想要知道你現在因應高關稅衝擊的這個補助的整個勞動部的規模會不會比照至少會有2019新冠疫情這些所有的措施一個都不會多不會少措施都在我們現在是正在規劃經濟跟因應關稅的版本的方案甚至如果需要的話我們還會再加碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7359.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7386.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
所以都會有我可以這樣講嗎這些措施都在都有這些措施都有這些措施都在那我們現在是要再做因地制宜包括因接下來的情境的這個更精準的設定那甚至需要的話包括擴大對象跟加碼這都是現在正在進行如果你150億不夠的話你下一個階段你的錢要從哪裡來目前確實包括救保跟救安基目前還有一些餘裕 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7388.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7412.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
所以還是從救安基金來嗎 救安跟救保對 那你的救安基金 那7000萬的追繳就更重要了我提醒你 因為你那邊虧掉了7000多萬 你現在是400多億你比之前的新冠疫情的你的556億還要少所以7000萬 大家都希望 部長 你在這個位置上面要幫老百姓做一些事情要去把他追繳回來 讓救安基金更充實 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7413.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7440.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
跟委員說明要跟個人的追究我想我們是行政部門我們也需要有法律上面的依據當然但是你行政部門的職權也不要晾在一邊不會就是不想去做不會當然不會好謝謝謝謝王委員謝謝部長那我們更正一下洪孟楷委員執行往我們休息十分鐘那要上洗手間的自行前往來繼續我們請邱政經委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7451.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7471.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
主席好我們請部長部長請部長好我請問你你上次在這裡說育嬰停留領不到是口誤對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7474.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7495.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
但是產檢家、陪產檢家確實是有被刪減馬上又補了另外一個謠言就包含你在那天在板橋大罷免宣講的造謠會場講得慷慨激昂你能不能重複再講一次總算對新手爸媽會有什麼影響就是產檢家跟陪產檢家是有被砍 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7496.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7525.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
這不是謠言 這不是謠言 這是真的所以這個預算編在哪裡這個編在這個我們勞動平等勞動條件集就會平等的相關的預算裡面那今年編多少 編多少錢8500萬好 那講補助費有三減還是凍結有凍結有三減也有凍結哪一筆沒有三也沒凍結哪委員有哪一筆啊 你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7526.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7551.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
委員 三減被刪了八百 凍結應該凍了一千九 大概兩千我看到這邊資料怎麼只有六百咧你的資料不是很正確三減 院會三減的部分是啥兩千一百八十五三減 三減了八百凍結凍了將近兩千所以一定會影響到賠產減價相關的薪資補貼這是為什麼會影響到新手爸媽的權利的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7557.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7569.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
所以我們勞動條件及就業平等師業務一共編了9714萬元那我這邊資料是你是講統三的部分嗎就是這一項裡面被刪了800萬跟被凍結了2000萬左右但是裡面有8500多萬就是用在產檢價跟賠產檢價的薪資補貼所以一定會影響到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7589.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7599.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
所以影響多少 這樣影響會多少在下半年我們相關的這些津貼的合法商一定會影響到的在下半年 那前半年不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7604.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7631.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我們其實當然希望都不要影響到新手爸媽的權益但是很遺憾的是就是會影響到你們有為這個事情提出來了嗎有沒有提出這個意見你們的意見我們在之前其實就已經要提出來說這筆預算是關乎新手爸媽的權益可是現在就是會影響到了所以我沒有在造謠這是真的會發生的事情那你趕快提出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7635.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7651.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
你不要在外面講嘛那你是不是可以馬上我們不是只有在外面講我們說我們提出復議可是復議被否定你不能做追加嗎所以那時候我們在委員會行政院提出復議可是很遺憾復議被否決不是我是說你為什麼不在委員會來提 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7652.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7665.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
因為這個是一個整體的影響所以當時行政院是提出複議的方式但複議被否決啦我們希望透過複議能夠爭取這些相關的預算能夠再有多討論跟審議的機會可是在複議被否決啊那這邊不能提我正要問的你不要再講到院會嘛這是一個整體的你不能 你不能提解凍嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7676.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7699.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
所以我們要說第一個確實六個山洞是有影響的第二個是我們也想要解決問題那你應該在這邊提出副意你如果有這個問題你是不是現在要提出來我們當然希望跟各政黨能夠再做一些討論如果你真的是為了我們年輕人著想那你為什麼現在不趕快做這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7700.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7709.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我們是為了年輕人才好所以編列這個預算所以不希望這個預算當時被這樣煽動所以你被這樣影響年輕人你要怎麼去處理這個問題就一直喊就好我們沒有喊所以當時提出的副議啊你要不要做嘛我們提出了副議但副議沒有要提出來什麼時候要提出來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7719.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7735.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
你不要講婦嬰婦嬰已經否決了對不對婦嬰否決就是讓人遺憾的事情那你現在咧現在咧我們是不是有講過你如果有自在難行你是不是可以提出來是所以我們提出婦嬰什麼時候你講那個廢話還在婦嬰現在廢話就沒婦嬰就已經結束了還在還在要繞回去怎麼可能呢你還在還要繞回去還硬喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7747.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7757.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
委員這不是硬喔那你現在怎麼處理嘛我們當然可以我們接下來可以大家再做跟朝野各界來做討論你可以提出來啊叫你提出來什麼時候要提出來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7758.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7781.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
我們這個相關的案子 我們會跟行政院來討論一定要提上面 你自己不會提 討論就對了沒有一次討論不提那等上面指示 你們可以講才講是嗎那等大罷免結束之後 你們再來為年輕人來著想是嗎還是這個事情你要來利用一直燒到大罷免 結束我們正是為年輕人著想 所以當時才不需要你如果真的是想要處理事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7784.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7804.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
這個三點跟凍結是事實事實我現在沒有說不是事實這個三點跟凍結是事實年輕人心想辦法的權益被影響是事實你要不要提出來解要不要提出來解嘛所以當時為什麼我要提出來解你就閉嘴那麼我現在問你的是你現在什麼時候要提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7807.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7818.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我們會找適當時機會來提相關還可以再做的做法只是我們必須表達確實這個刪減跟凍結就是事實好那我現在問你那你盡快好不好那我們問審計部一下救援好救援基金裡面7224萬元用途不符本來就是用途不符為什麼要給我們的報告改成關聯性不高 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7837.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7865.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
跟委員報告就是我們跟審計部發的審核通知跟勞動部的歷次的申付其實這兩個用詞都有在用為什麼要臨時蓋嗎沒有我們只是把它文字再重新整理所以是你的意思沒有因為我們內部在校對的時候就覺得跟所以你認為這個說法比較正確沒有就是我們等於是大家一個比較雙方都可以共同認同的說法你113年底給財政委員會的報告也是且用途不符 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7866.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7887.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那這一次是誰叫你改的沒有這個原來我們就就內部在校對就做這樣的處理那個好用途不符就是用途不符改幾個字不反我用的事實會改變嗎不會那現在就是欲蓋彌彰嘛對不對把事實呈現給大眾有那麼難嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7889.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7907.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我們從這個案子我們調查跟揭露還有移送檢調在後續偵辦還有呈報監察院的我們都是按照我們查核發現的證據完整呈現給相關的單位我們沒有任何掩飾那救援基金濫用的部分為什麼你用檢列不是用剔除 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7908.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7925.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
其實公文包因為現在113年度他的決算已經編我們現在在審決算所以這個追討手段可以用剔除直接進入強制執行嘛檢列腳褲是由財政部追討那如果只做檢列就是財務審計做個樣子而已嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7929.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7943.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這個兩個 顧委員報告我們其實修正決算7224萬餘元修正這個都要增列其他應收款這個事後都還是要追蹤腳褲的那實際動作呢 你要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7944.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7961.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
後續一樣這裡面其中有包括有涉及個人財務責任部分我們還是會追究你們怎麼追究一樣就是等判刑有一部分涉及財務責任有送了嗎那個部分移送法辦的部分判決確定我們還是會追究個人的財務責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7963.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7988.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
好 那你這個要多久這個司法判決這個部分我們比較不容易掌握了因為現在以那個北分署的案子現在目前是甄決起訴嘛所以可能在法院那邊處理所以這個部分我們就會靜待司法判決確定我們會後都會繼續追蹤好 那你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7990.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8012.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
進度喔 我想你大概每個月跟我們報告可以嗎我們盡量啦 因為這個恐怕因為涉及這個根本沒辦法 這包括我們移送給檢調部份就涉及司法行政責任部份另外一部份是監察院在調查中你已經送了沒有還沒送這兩個都送了已經送了是不是都送了那我再請教部長你發新聞稿說 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8019.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8028.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
編公務預算要把許民春演唱會還有他拍沙龍照這些不法挪用的錢補回來對吧補回基金嗎你有講過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8032.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8053.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
我們說的是說如果要我的我的說法是如果要跟個人來追究決策者的責任的話我們會配合檢調跟司法局追討你在基金裡面拿出來的錢怎麼補呃現在按照審計部給我們的這個審核的通知是要我們修正簡列追呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8055.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8079.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
修正減劣追回那按照修正減劣追回的話他的其實意思是他不應該用在救安基金但是應該是用在公務預算裡面所以在過去相關的判定裡面在還沒有公務預算的時候他就已經可以用掉了嘛那你現在用公務預算去補對不對你的意思是這樣嗎這個是過去如果被判定修正減劣追回的話的做法之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8081.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8096.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
他只是減劣嘛 那你現在我的意思是說你是不是要準備用公務預算去把它補回來這個是做法 只一旦具體的做法我們還可以跟審計部跟主計處再來討論因為審計部劣 減劣就是認定這個動之不合規定我們副審計長 我這樣講有錯嗎減劣就是認定動之不合規定嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8113.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8142.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
好那你現在說那你現在要怎麼樣用怎麼樣用納稅人的錢去補回來的我還是要跟委員說明勞動部是一個行政部門我們必須要依照審計部的審計結果跟相關的規範來辦理那審計部判定的就是修正減劣跟追回所以過去在這做法上面所以這樣是合法就對了這樣是合法就對了哪一個事情是合法就用公務預算補就是對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8144.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8151.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
過去在如果被做這些相關的判定的話編列公務預算來規定是做法之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8154.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8173.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那如果這樣子的話我們用納稅人的錢來去補這筆錢你認為合理嗎所以我剛才跟委員說明具體的做法當然我們還願意跟行政院跟審議部來做討論可是確實當時在新聞稿裡面寫說編列公務預算來歸電這是過去被判定相關的類型的時候他的做法之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8174.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8192.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
好 我希望你們這個部分一定要給我們國人一個好交代把它講清楚 絕對不能說如果有違法的部分你們一定要依法來追究 來做處理如果有違法的部分 尤其如果是司法判決的話我們當然會依照司法判決來追究好 謝謝好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長那接下來我們請盧縣議委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8207.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8208.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
主席有請部長部長早我今天就按基金的那個管理設置就是委員會這個設置我想詢問幾個問題就是說它現在這29人是如何產生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8231.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8249.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
這29人裡面其實有中央機關的代表有地方政府的代表然後也有勞工團體、雇主團體、資方團體跟專家學者都有因為發生了這麼多事情而且是7000多萬我是覺得說到底基金管理委員會有沒有這29人裡面有沒有任何一個人在開會的時候提出質疑過 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8253.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8279.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我想我們其實在這一次的檢討裡面我們其實有說明我們其實是我也不想把責任都是說只是因為管理會的審查的狀況我們會來強化整個基金管理的機制我想知道說你這邊是中央政府8人地方政府3人共11人嘛那勞工團體僱主團體大概10個人專家學者這邊有我們的法律人才主計人才嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8283.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8312.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
主要可能他們的專長是包含在就業服務或者是也會有一些是弱勢團體的代表那他們在他們自己特定的領域裡面所以這麼龐大的一個基金規模400多億而我之前還有到500多億那我是覺得說如果沒有一個所謂的專業的專門在管錢的人然後才會產生這些7000多萬的這些我們所謂的主總有代表在裡面是嗎有嗎有好那我比較想知道說因為主席就是部長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8313.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8340.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
對不對是所以等於是部長要全權負責這個七千多萬的事情啊不是嗎我想面對這個事情勞動部當然有一定的責任好那我們再來看一下就是我們審計部當然已經在查了那我就不再多講那我想知道說那就這個就暗地基金管理委員會的我們一直在質疑他是不是形同虛設的問題也就是說當初現有這個問題到底是誰正好他可以這樣這麼做你覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8342.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8364.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
跟路人說明 我不認為到有到尋同虛設想尋同虛設也對這個管理會的委員們不公平但是我們也認為這裡面很多管理的機制跟管理會運作其實我們覺得有可以更強化監督的空間可以去買禮品 可以辦演唱會這些事情在你們在管理委員會開會的時候都沒有人去質疑這些事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8365.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8381.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
29個人都沒有一個人來質疑過嗎所以我們覺得其實在這個包括在會議的資料上面或者是其實相關的審議的過程裡面這也是為什麼我們定定審議我們接下來定定審議要點那來協助委員們然後做更強化的把關 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8381.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8398.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
那謝業榮這個案件如果你要怎麼來預防如果按照我們這些委員會這個這個層級的話跟路人說明我們其實接下來會在致用原則上面直接就明定不可以做跟業務無關的使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8398.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8416.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
對我有看到你的管理面什麼資訊公開面這些那在用途面我剛剛講的是在用途面我們會來訂定基金的資用原則所以在資用原則上面我們希望就直接就把包括大家現在很詬病的禮品的採購或者是跟一些跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8418.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8440.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
比方說大家最詬病的是那個軌道燈的使用直接在這個適用原則上面就直接規定以後就是直接禁止的這甚至都不用進到委員會裡面我看到你們今天開了兩次會那我想知道你們開會有真正落實到檢討或者是說督促嗎當然其實我們在上一次的委員會裡面的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8441.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8469.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
就已經是用新的強化把關的機制在運作包括提供資訊包括相關的審議了我有幾個建議就是說你可能勞動發展署這邊你的牽涉的議題非常的廣非常的複雜還可能牽涉到其他機關所以我是覺得說你們是不是應該也要分組像我們之前在我們原轉會好了就是我們之前蔡英文總統的那個原轉會他會有分教育組有分土地組有分什麼組 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8470.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8496.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
所以當然我講老公的問題當然有很多種那29個人裡面是不是可以去分組把工作來消化不然那麼多資料給大家可是你有時間去看這些東西嗎你有時間去消化這些資料嗎所以我在想應該是你們要去專業化個別來討論這個所謂的層層負責或者說每一件事情來去看它的是不是符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8497.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8519.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
所謂的法規所以我是覺得應該是要這樣不是是虛設一個29人在那裡可是29人到底在做什麼沒有人知道有人就像你上面投影片上面寫的我們從原本是5000萬以上會納入內控現在其實已經擴大到2000萬以上而且我們還會設定一個外部的這個外積的集合的機制這個部分是現在5000萬變2000萬是內控 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8522.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8533.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
可是我們還會設定一個外部的集合由法律跟會計專業背景的人來幫我們在這些特定大家特別關心的議題上面直接做集合這都是我們在強化整個基金管理上面的具體的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8534.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8552.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那我看到對啊 那2000萬是很像看起來是比較嚴格可是實際上是更增添我們委員們的審議及監督上的難度因為會更多 會更多量對不對 本來以前是2000萬以上嘛現在是2000萬以上嘛所以會更複雜所以是不是這個部分你應該再去想我剛才所謂的分組的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8556.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8574.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
最後因為我是原住民當然還是要聽原住民講話最近在1月份的時候有收到一封信就是關於我們原住民的就是就業服務這個部分那其實在原民會一直有一直有一個叫做原住民就業服務員大概是2007年設置的可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8576.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8589.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
勞動部這邊在2022年的時候成立了一個所謂也是就每兩萬人以上可以設立原住民特殊文化需求的公立就業服務機構也就是說這兩個單位其實是他們所做的事情是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8590.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8607.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
所以會重複性會非常高所以我會覺得說就資源浪費上面或者是說我們所謂的資源整合上面我是覺得這個需要你們跟原民會來溝通或者是來努力因為我知道你們現在在青年職業這邊有有針對青年人的也有執訓中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8608.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8621.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
原住民這邊到目前為止沒有針對專屬原住民的一個所謂的一個機構其實是可以的因為你在原民會有在勞動部這邊有這麼多的人力如果說合併在一起是不是可以更好可以更全面 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8622.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8646.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
跟瑞恩說明我們其實現在跟園民會是有一個跨部會的這個溝通的機制那我們也很樂意跟園民會在這方面來討論尤其是相關資源的設定因為工作性質雷同所以他們常常會去比如說我是屏東縣的園民會的就業服務員我是屏東縣政府的就業服務員可是他們會互相來抄取資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8647.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8661.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
或者是說為了報成果大家成果都是一樣的啊我的意思是說其實就是要去盤點不要做這些重複性的事情當然我們增加工作機會是很好所以台東化你也需要可是我的意思就是應該把這個兩個部會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8662.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8688.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
所謂就業服務能夠整合然後在中央的園民會那邊是不能預缺不補然後在地方是預缺可以補的又造成他們PTC上面的一些內心上面的一些比較會認為說怎麼地方的就業服務比較好所以即使這些部分都可以去溝通去協調可以嗎部長當然如果我們能夠能夠做到更好包括跟地方上面的原住民的就業的資源中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8689.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8699.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
補助的就業的資源 我們怎麼樣來做準 這我們很樂意跟人民會起來討論這件事情好 那我就期待 謝謝謝謝羅委員 謝謝部長來 我們接一系請黃孟愷委員質詢主席謝謝 麻煩請我們審計部副審計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8723.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8738.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
我剛剛聽了五位委員的質詢啊勞動部現在就是全部都推給審計啊因為審計說認定之前這救援基金7000多萬的使用是可以認定是修正簡列不是剔除 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8739.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8766.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
所以說勞動部就好像領到了聖旨一樣他就沒有去追討他就用公務預算來編列讓外界都覺得是說好像左手補右手公務預算救安基金這是不是都是人民的納稅錢來源是是好所以我為什麼會要針對審計部的部分因為我很重視審計部給我們的資料給我們的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8768.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8792.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
審計的報告我想審計長你也有看過你覺得裡面這樣子的濫用公務預算真的合理嗎大家都是公務員我剛特別看了一下我也就教一下說那內容來我們先看一下審計長請教一下這個是我們大家所關心所謂的這個許民村的演唱會他總共 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8793.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8817.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
花費多少錢300多萬元那300多萬元裡面到底這個演唱會他的製作燈光音響效果舞台用在哪邊有沒有找出來各位報告這個前段部分我們都有移送給監察院是移送給監察院我想請教確認跟你確認嘛是 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8818.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8830.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那個演唱會我們看到燈光音響舞台包括說舞群表演人員不只許明春一個人唱歌嘛是還有前面還有兩個歌手不是嗎對那那個演出費編在哪邊有沒有編在哪邊 花多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8845.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8864.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
是不是沒有嘛勞動部他們那時候是就用開口合約而你們的報告裡面寫的開口合約沒有這個項目只有製作影片的項目所以後來就讓他們用直播的方式以及直播完之後剪成7支影片的方式給核銷368萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8867.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8877.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那一支一個直播跟7支影片而這個7支影片還不是新拍的是把直播的畫面剪成7支影片然後來核銷這樣子報了368萬合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8883.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8907.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我們認為不合理不合理所以我因為我們提出的一個審計意見其中就是他運用這個開口契約用這個方式來核銷來處理其實是是不合一般的荒謬嘛是是如果說可以的話那就用公務預算啊為什麼那時候用救安基金就代表是說救安基金感覺比較便宜形式比較可以暗度成倉啊來這是單一個案嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8911.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8922.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我們再看下一個大家都是公務同仁喔可以看一下這樣子的一個做法如果發生在各自部會上面可能大家都已經被抓去關了來這個是我們審計的報告喔一樣他說什麼他說總共金額有632萬元要製作5支影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8937.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8953.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
內容講的是說我要五支影片製作632萬結果他到最後怎麼做他到最後是拍了一支影片之後把影片剪輯成五支短影片交付驗收然後請領632萬來來 沈記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8958.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8981.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
哪一個公家機關單位可以這樣子來做標案我標案寫的是我要製作五支影片來投標的廠商也都知道說他要做五支影片結果到最後他驗收的時候是給那個廠商做一支影片然後剪成五支短影片然後就變五支雙胞胎啊 三胞胎 五胞胎啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8982.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9008.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
一支影片變成五支短影片然後就變五支然後就可以有六百多萬的驗收通過這有沒有構成圖利啊我對外的標案講的是說我要拍五支影片所以廠商他可能不敢來因為覺得說六百多萬拍五支影片價格有點高我可能成本不合沒有來結果真的來投標的我不知道這廠商是誰但我要求應該要查 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9009.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9029.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
廠商來他就講是說我來投標那可能其他人會覺得說奇怪你怎麼會來投標就原來是因為到最後驗收很簡單啊驗收是我只要拍一支剪成五支短影片part 1 part 2 part 3 part 4 part 5結果承辦人員就讓他驗收變五支影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9031.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9042.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
陳記長這是單一個案嗎我們所有的查核發現其實就跟提供給委員的資料一樣這是單一個案嗎應該類同的狀況應該蠻多的應該蠻多的沒有錯你的報告我客氣了112年勞動節主題影片是這樣子辦你的報告裡面113年勞動節影片也是這樣辦而且更貴 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9062.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9079.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
831萬結果要做兩支影片兩支影片他變成是拍了一支影片叫搬家片結果分上下集然後再拍一個30秒的短片沒有重拍喔也是一樣把那個搬家片變30秒短片結果請領了831萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9085.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9103.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
這更簡單了他連剪輯都懶了三支影片兩支長片一支短片831萬就他拍一支分上下集然後再剪一個精華30秒出來就可以核銷578萬跟96萬天體下有那麼好康念好康報大家知道吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9112.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9136.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
有多少青年朋友苦哈哈創業沈機長我再請教知不知道外面行情剪一支影片多少錢欸...不瞭解有沒有去問沒有沒有因為我們只是個案查核就裡面不合理的部分我們蒐集證據把他把他揭露出來會不會覺得真的非常離譜我看到你們報告我都覺得非常離譜啊800多萬500多萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9139.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9158.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
是這樣子濫用人民的納稅錢這樣濫花而且更不要講過去三年就業安定基金其實是虧損的三年虧了兩百億結果我們的勞動部用這樣子的花錢的方式啊為什麼我要問你是因為勞動部長屁屁啊啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9160.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9183.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
他從剛剛到現在只要講的都是講是說依法行政 依法辦理審計部告訴我們修正簡略不用剔除所以我們就編公務預算我們拿2025年的公務預算來去補2021年2022年2023年上下起手出去的預算上下交鄉賊啊 左手給右手啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9184.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9209.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
時空旅人之期啊2025年的預算來補2021年已經出去的預算然後他的核銷檢驗是這樣子一個狀況驗收是這樣的狀況合理嗎那你這樣子我們還要還要堅持講的是這個叫做什麼預算不相關然後不是相符 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9211.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9238.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
還要在昨天你們送來的報告之後然後之後再換報告 換字眼然後還要看你剛剛的這個辯解還是講是說沒有啦 都有用啦文字都有用啦我光點這三點都是你報告裡面的內容這三點我覺得如果說是做工程的話早就被抓去關了你怎麼會發包一個標案講的是要做到這個我要蓋五間房子 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9239.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9265.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
結果變成是我蓋一間房子五層樓就驗收就通過會受害嗎公務員報告因為他這個案子齁他剛剛前面我也跟其他委員報告因為這個案子他的處理方式他是用開口契約啦齁那我們覺得這個開口契約裡面其實他開口契約可以變成是我們公務預算濫用的理由跟藉口嗎當然不行當然不行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9267.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9295.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
因為開口契約的所以我們審計單位現在為什麼一直跟您堅持在講說審計單位出來報告很重要你們認定到什麼程度行政部門就可以拿著上方保健如果你們認定就是他現在只要修正簡列行政部門就上方保健啊我就編預算來補就好啦啊之前的責任是誰哪一個承辦那個承辦怎麼驗收的有沒有圖利的嫌疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9297.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9303.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
為什麼廠商就只有這家廠商知道可以這樣驗收其他廠商都沒有辦法我5隻就是5隻沈記長還有沒有再調整的空間還有沒有要再修正的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9316.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9337.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
還有沒有要站在中華民國政府把關預算的空間真的不能濫用我相信有良知的公務同仁聽到我剛剛這樣子解釋這幾個大家可以歡迎大家去看這審計的報告奇聞共賞真的太離譜了就是因為看到那麼離譜的報告出來之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9339.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9346.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
你寫出來的狀況才會讓我們看到過去那幾年救安基金被濫用的有多離譜這有送監察院已經呈報監察院你覺得監察院會有效果嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9360.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9377.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那麼沒信心 對監察院那麼沒信心但我知道 我也說你送給監委嘛 是不是沒有沒有 我們就直接整個案子傳報給監察院那對監察院內部的審查 監察委員有立案調查了嗎立案調查了目前還在調查中目前還在調查中 是不是沈警長 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9381.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9396.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
互相尊重立法部門跟監察部門其實我們都是站在人民的這一面要求督促行政部門我不會又要馬好又要馬不吃草所以救安基金如果當用用在刀口上我不會反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9397.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9416.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
但是如果說花這種情況你們都白紙黑字寫出來了然後結果還可以放任行政部門沒有去追討相關的責任而是編列2025年的公務預算去把他給回繳然後就傳過水無痕就沒事了我們會嚴正處理不會傳過水無痕我們一定會依法來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9422.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9435.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
沈機長 本席看你剛剛講嚴正處理 依法處理會是什麼樣的狀況這個案子我還要繼續追希望我們下一次再見面的時候你真的可以給我們一些國人交代跟責任 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9469.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9469.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10237.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10240.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
好 我們現在繼續開會 請黃振旭委員質詢謝謝主席 我們有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10256.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10281.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
王委員好部長好今天接續著剛剛很多委員針對今天的主題就基金後續的處置那早上大家也都有聽到包括我們審計部還有主席總書的說明那當然部長也做了非常完整的說明不過開始之前還是針對關稅的部分先來請教一下部長我們也知道自從這個川普 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10282.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10303.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
總統他提出了相關的這個關稅的處理模式以後相信對所有的國家造成的影響都非常的大那在這邊也知道說勞動部也提出了四大因應的措施來處理那這個四大因應措施裡面我想部長也利用媒體跟大家做了說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10304.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10324.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那這邊想要多了解一下部長當初有提到所有主動訪視的部分那我就依序來請部長再針對於勞動部是否能夠掌握目前相關如果產業受到影響的無薪假還有失業的情形的掌握狀況第二點部分就是哪些產業適合 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10326.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10346.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
趕快來主動出擊的我相信產業的這個屬性不同他所造成的衝擊也是不太一樣那另外就是大家很關心如果事業單位他領取了相關的補助後來他又發生了這個違反相關的這些要求的話那勞動部有沒有哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10349.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10366.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
好那個跟跟網友說明確實我們其實現在非常非常關注其實可能產業會受到衝擊產業受到衝擊之後後面可能就會是機會受到衝擊所以我們現在會先以我們會先優先是鎖定 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10369.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10394.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
有高的風險會遭遇到這次關稅衝擊的幾個產業就像之前大家講到包括像機械業 汽車零組件然後甚至現在大家講到像水五金像塑膠石化業等等等我們會先鎖定這些相關的產業那包括這些產業下面的相關的工會所以目前我們其實已經在主動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10396.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10411.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
跟這些工會來進行聯繫那也包括如果有相關的資訊的話我們就會主動的來訪視跟確認這訪視當然因為勞動部其實我們有很多的這個包括發言署下面有很多的分署 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10412.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10427.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那有些房市我自己接下來也有相關的房市的行程來一一的來聽尤其是像中部或者是在南部其實會有一些我們的出口製造業他有可能最最容易受到影響的部分我們會來房市那 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10429.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10448.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以這個部分我們目前會把這個衝擊的回報的機制給建立起來這裡面我們會跟包括地方政府包括跟工會包括跟我們分屬甚至跟我們產業界裡面的工協會來去做合作所以現在可能大家在媒體上面就會看到有一些相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10449.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10464.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
的新聞出現有這些新聞出現的話我們也會有機制就立即的去做確認到底現在有沒有所謂的減班休息或者是解雇的狀況出現我們會把我們現在正在這個禮拜正在把這個機制相對完整的建立起來知道部長已經很忙碌了 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10466.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10484.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我相信部裡面的所有同仁也都非常忙碌不過看起來有這個需求的話可能還是要請部長能夠再抽空多了解一下主動出擊也去關心更多的這些產業跟相關的勞動朋友的權益的這些部分如何再做更好的維持這是有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10486.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10514.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
這個部分那另外救安基金的處理的過程裡面今天其實大家都非常熱烈在討論當中那部長能不能夠再稍微說明一下是不是同樣維持由行政院來編列公務預算規定這個處理方式有沒有做經過今天早上其他委員的討論以後有沒有希望再做調整的部分那另外如果最後司法判決有違施的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10515.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10533.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那勞動部應該要如何來救責好呃跟萬元說明吼呃勞動部是行政部門所以我們必須照審計部給我們的相關審計的結果跟相關的做規範的做法來做後續的作業那以編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10535.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10560.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
明年之後的公務預算來歸電是過去被認定為修正減劣的時候的做法之一可是具體的做法我們願意來跟行政院包括審計跟主計我們願意再來做一些相關的討論但我知道現在會有些人會說啊那你這不就是還是是用全民的稅金來去歸電嗎可是我必須說確實過去在被認定為修正減劣的狀況之下這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10565.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10592.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
去處理這個這樣會計上面決算上面的帳戶上修正的方法之一但我們也可以也願意再來跟大家來做做討論那我應該講到是說因為大家現在也很關注就是關於責任的追究然後那責任的追究部分現在包括監察院包括檢調司法都在查如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10595.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10607.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
這個檢調司法最後判定是有所謂非法隱私或者是有違法的人謀不章的話當然我們必須依照這個司法的判決去做相關的追究跟追討他的財務責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10608.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10637.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
好 那因為我們了解這個前分署長謝育榮在這個過程裡面他也造成了另外一個霸凌的問題那個霸凌的問題我目前也在透過修法希望能夠把一些內容可以做得更完整那目前的草案裡面也了解說如果能夠考慮很多相關在這個職場當中帶來這個霸凌的問題能夠做得更完整更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10638.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10658.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那依據目前預告的草案裡面針對於如何能夠在調查過程裡面在進入司法程序之前萬一這個申訴的機制不夠完整的話可能造成這個帶來的影響會更大所以包括說以前就是要連續性 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10659.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10682.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
那如果不是連續性的話就是情節重大的情形下就可以有機會來針對霸凌防治的問題做一個更完整的規劃那請問一下如果是有所謂的這個情節重大的部分萬一第一次判定是認為不需要的話那後面還有沒有救治的機制可以讓他做得更完整這部分部長的意見如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10684.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10703.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
其實我們針對在大零的定義上面的情節重大主要是針對過去其實會有一些法院的判例這法院的判例裡面都會要求它是有持續性所以會有一些案例因為看起來它不是持續的所以會被法院判定為好像這不是霸零的狀況可是我們在這裡面把情節重大這部分給定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10705.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10723.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
這個單數給定出來的時候如果有單一一次或個別次數的這個情節重大的發生的話不一定一定非得要是所謂的連續性或反覆發生的狀況那等於是在大齡的整體的定義上面能夠一個更完整的去建構我們大齡的相關的房置 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10724.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10742.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
那這是第一個事情那第二個事情是說目前在我們目前這個草案裡面的修法版本是如果你是事業單位裡面的最高負責人的話那當然是直接進到這個地方的勞工局去做相關的調查跟申訴這部分是很明確的 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10743.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10771.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
是 所以如果將來需要的話可能也要麻煩部裡面是不是能夠設立類似那種裁決委員會或第三公正的單位來處理相關的這些後續我們其實這個我們其實因為在這個進攻法的修法裡面他其實有相關的相對應的這個性評會來處理所以我們當然現在也在考慮跟討論怎麼讓因為我們不希望企業他要自己要去設立 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10772.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10782.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
可能很多個類似的委員會好像部分委員會處理性評估部分委員處理霸凌其實很多企業可能也沒辦法所以怎麼樣來協助企業把這些相關的功能可以整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10783.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10807.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
把這功能給整合有些部分包括屬於性騷擾性評那他同時也有處理霸凌的功能我們可能要協助企業把這些功能的整合他才能夠比較好的去運作不然太分散的話可能和對很多企業來說尤其台灣這麼多的中小微企業也不一定受得了是的確這個企業的治理的部分這部分未來可能面對的問題會更多是如果好的方法的話可以減少最後們的困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10808.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10831.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
那很快再請教一下有關於我們知道目前在醫界或者是醫院裡面碰到一個蠻困難的問題就是這個護理人力的不足那這邊有沒有考慮到未來在針對於這個開放資深移工擔任副佐的進度的部分目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10832.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10849.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
掌握的狀況如何那我們也了解這樣當然對於護理的專業人力的安排可能會造成他們就業上的衝擊那這方面不曉得有沒有什麼因應措施在準備當中其實我想這部分他這個目前是在預告中 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10850.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10865.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那只是我們這個其實他是用讓資深移工來轉為所謂的這個中階的互助可是對於中階的互助其實我們是有設定門檻的包括薪資門檻包括技能門檻甚至包括語言上面都有門檻並不是沒有門檻的 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10867.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10891.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那相關的配套當然我們認為現在衛福部也在做衛福部來做這樣的申請我們也希望衛福部可以把說到底這跟專業跟護理師就護佐跟護理師之間那個工作的分工的界面其實應該要把它設定清楚那這也是相關的配套才能讓這個分工或者衛福部當初來跟勞動部提出這樣的申請的時候怎麼樣這個分工可以真的是有效是 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10892.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10910.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
好因為接下來下一個問題就是有關於很快可以請部長稍微說明一下關於職聘的部分我們也知道透過職聘可以讓不管是農業或者是機構看護職工的義工的部分可以有更迅速的應應現在的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10914.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10936.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
請部長也說明一下跟印度啊或者是原來的這些移工的國家有談論到這部分的有的因為立法院其實對於在印度移工的引進上面非常關心職聘的問題所以我們其實也把就是台灣我們台方希望在職聘上面的期待很清楚的來跟印方來表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10938.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10962.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
那但是現在確實大家是在這個執行面的技術上面的狀況大家還在做一些磋商但是我們但是因為國會也非常關注所以我們也好幾度的在跟印方來表達我們其實對於在台印之間的移工引進的問題上面我們對於執聘上面的期待好那今天就用這些問題來跟部長請教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10965.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10971.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
謝謝王委員 謝謝部長那等一下在蘇清泉委員執行完畢後我們處理臨時提案我們下一位請蘇昭偉先答 請謝謝 謝謝主席我請我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10995.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10997.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
副審計長跟副主計長主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11012.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11035.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
主席總署嘛 你是行政院的是副審理長 你是鑑產院的鑑產院的今天這個日子在說鑑產院 鑑產院你就是鑑產院的 你都這樣撒來撒去好 我們這個預算編列到預算執行到結算之後我要請問主席處裡面的 主席總署裡面的角色是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11036.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11055.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
跟我們報告就是說基本上從預算籌編開始那我們就是會請各部會來提需求那我們就是會進行會診那會再區分他如果是屬於公共建設科技等等會有一些新奇 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11056.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11080.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
計畫的這個審議機關像國發會科科技部等等那最後我們就把這個會診的結果經過一個會議審查以後提報到行政院院會院會通過以後就送立法院大概我們的角色是這樣所以你們是先前譬如說明年115年的預算你們現在就開始在張羅嗎那你們開始邊邊邊你們是負責前半段嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11085.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11105.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那各個部會怎麼編怎麼編 這樣嘛後來大家上行政院 院會後通過 再上過來立法院嘛那立法院審查像這次有一些凍結的有一些核酸的那你們在報回去之後 請問你們是怎麼分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11106.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11119.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
我看那邊主席長都在哀哀說什麼沒辦法分配沒辦法凍結的他沒有辦法分配到底這是怎麼一回事你要講清楚因為沒有多少人聽得懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11120.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11121.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
所以你就卡在哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11148.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11175.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
因為那個就業部長我在高鐵上跟他同車他也一直在抱怨說桶山下來的錢到底我分到多少是不是這樣所以他也不曉得要怎麼做行政院也不曉得要怎麼做是不是這樣就是對目前就是有一個636億不明確是要刪減什麼項目好那你現在互利也沒有過了那你們現在怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11177.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11206.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
現在基本上就是說就跟那個剛剛部長講的是一樣的問題嘛譬如有的刪有的動那再來就3到600多億那個怎麼分法定部要分到多少要分到多少是不是這樣委員報告就是因為這個636億的不確定性就連動到後面要採取什麼的措施就變成一種困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11207.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11215.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
所以現在已經四月了 你們現在怎麼辦因為六百多一直還是不確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11217.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11225.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
所以咧?我要怎麼知道?我一直叫勞動部、衛務部趕快來申請解凍解凍是另外一個啦這個600多億是統3的嘛,是不是?要講清楚喔對,就是900多億裡面有明確項目的扣除以後還有636億是不明確所以是3的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11245.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11254.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
是刪減的部分所以這張卡在這裡不知道要怎麼補是好那沈济浦你的感受是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11256.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11276.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
跟委員報告就是大院審議中央政府總預算案通過了像總統如果公佈之後他們各部會就會把那個每個月的分配預算都會分配分配之後審計部的主要的職長之一就是會監督預算執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11281.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11293.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
從這個會計年度一開始到結束我們都是包括平常的會計報告的審核分配預算的查核到實際的派員就地去財務收支抽查另外一部分是專案調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11295.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11306.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
所以你114年的預算現在呼籲也沒過了所以呢現在總統府也公佈了所以你是114年按頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11309.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11336.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
跟攤每個月都有在追蹤考核是這樣嗎每個月都有審核還是等到115年都不料啊我們的審核包括書面審核書面審核就平常透過資訊系統跟機關送過來的會計報告我們也會線上去看他的交易憑證這個是平常就在做然後也要例行派員到各部會去就地抽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11338.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11361.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
這個是從年頭到年尾都好那剛剛主計處那邊講的600多億未定那你們怎麼弄我們根據他確定的就是他們確定的不會確定的我們根據那個數字來所以主計處你現在那個600多億你說未定你們現在要怎麼談你還沒有ideaI have no idea |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11362.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11389.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
就是說因為這個不確定涉及到行政跟立法的這個部分所以變成他沒有辦法透過行政部門這一邊獨立去解決這個問題所以這個變成說可能就必須有看是不是透過進一步的協商還是什麼就必須行政立法再度的來處理這個問題好 了解好 那你們兩個請回吧部長 瑪莉亞 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11400.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11428.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
書人好今天要講的這個題目事實上也不是你任上花生的啦這是去年甚至前年的事情那你是一個政務官嘛那你講白一點你拍拍屁股就可以走人啦對不對所以受苦受難的是我們勞動部這些事務官公務人員我覺得他們是很辛苦的他們的士氣蠻低迷的 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11429.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11440.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
阿你大家又有人搶 你有在搶嗎 我不知道啦搶沒有啦 那個公園是我們部裡面最重要的資產 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11442.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11469.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
沒有 公務人員是我們的資產國家的財產我們都要疼惜啦這個是不管藍職陣 不管綠職陣這些公務人員他們都是要幹到退休的那我是一直覺得我們公務人員好不容易要讀書讀到要死然後課高考 課特考 課薪水那麼低來這邊天天被罵我是覺得那是我不太想幹啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11470.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11497.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
真的真的所以我們要給他們加油啦給他們打氣因為以前真的是有點脫序那現在你來就更嚴格所以一磚一瓦都管得那麼嚴我是覺得有時候也要檢討啦也是要幫他練的啦一陣緊一陣鬆另外也是一樣啦所以我建議就是好好的來 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11500.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11513.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
檢討檢討啦我看你從上任到現在都非常戰爭津津啊我有問你好幾次啊你說你都用那個腎臟腺素在維持我不曉得真的還假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11515.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11541.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
好 我問一個 我們現在救援基金現在是現在有多少錢 現在目前有400多億那這一次這個美國川普這樣亂搞那我們已經很多 有中部的一些譬如說紡織的 或者是做螺絲的他們已經被美國的客戶已經通知說先不要出貨三個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11543.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11546.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我現在問說要不要出國三個,大家就不理我不慷慨了嘛馬上出問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11551.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11571.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
那換無薪假也罷 領半薪也罷你們現在是打算怎麼去幫助這些勞工 這個最實際喔跟蘇緯說明喔 確實在這個禮拜裡面陸陸續續其實聽到一些來自包括美國的進口商跟我們台灣的製造商或出口商開始有一些在討論訂單上面的變動的狀況 這是有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11575.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11602.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
那當然下一步會看這一些台灣的廠商他有些他可能會調動他的產線有些他可能會做他自己內部上面相關排班的調整可是我要說的是說我們是很不希望是走到比方說會是解雇的這個狀況或者是大量解雇那我們當然也會我們會在相關的機制上面做一些把關我們也不希望企業來濫用像這個減班休息的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11604.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11617.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
俗稱減班休息有人會俗稱無薪假可是他並不是真的無薪因為台灣的減班休息其實都是要還是要給最低工資的那是要給最低工資但是如果最低工資這一段你們有沒有補沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11620.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11643.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
如果有准班休息的狀況的話我們其實有相對應包括像充電才出發或者是有一些包括像雇用安定的措施來可能可以來去協助這個勞工他在收入上面的做法我們其實過去是有包括疫情的時候金融海嘯的時候是有這樣的經驗那我們也把過去的這些措施這些措施都還在 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11643.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11668.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
但我們也在規劃一個更針對目前關稅因應關稅的版本來去更清楚的因地制宜或者是來去設定現有的情境下面怎麼樣包括他的適用範圍甚至會不會在某些部分需要支持力度的加碼其實我們都在目前在做一個這樣子量身訂做的設定對好那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11669.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11674.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
百姓、公民、一般民眾的情感每次都在問你這件事要怎麼回答我是認為像這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11683.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11710.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
再出發的這個是乍臨的 再下一張你要去追這些錢回來勢必要有有憑有據嘛你不能說你部長想說要人家賺錢 你是必須要人家賺錢所以一定要換你判斷說他有安若度安福利或是說有中保私囊這個一定要判決你才能幫我去要嘛 對不對 部長是不是這樣我們如果要跟個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11711.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11740.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
包括甚至包括決策者要去做相關的追究或追討的話當然要有法律上面的依據那如果朋友把錢放在自己的口袋裡面你會說他是圖利啊怎麼樣不然的話你要去最後要去把他追錢窩香沒有那麼簡單耶所以就是看說還是要看有沒有法律上面的依據如果有這個法律上的依據的話那當然該怎麼做就要怎麼做啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11741.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11747.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
可是前提是所以這是為什麼我們說我們會來配合檢調或司法的結果來做相關的追究 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11749.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11776.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
像陳基普講的說 要擔心他判刑 現在都起訴嘛起訴之後 一審 再二審 再三審要不然到底判定 沒有兩三年搞不定啦就我們目前看到檢調的起訴書上面的內容的話如果剛才蘇緣講的是謝前分署長的狀況的話看起來他在檢調寫的上面 他已經把他不罰所得其實已經有返還了 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11777.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11780.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
好像有一百萬拿多少已經繳出去了應該不是這個數字兩萬多塊兩萬多塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11785.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11807.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
所以那個前部長 前前部長跟盧派借訂我看他只有唱歌而已啊我看他沒有幹瑕事啊所以那個要怎麼去追前我是覺得大家情感歸情感啦不管是要回歸講道理跟回歸法治面啦所以那個審計部叫你要從邊或者怎麼樣這個也都可以理解啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11816.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11822.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
啊不過汪洋普老你往後的要更嚴格我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11846.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11847.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
謝謝好 謝謝蘇卿委員的發言 謝謝部長的答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11862.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11892.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
我們現在處理臨時提案總共有四案那請一件一件先宣讀一件一件還是一併一併一併先讀第一案請省紀長於二周內提供就業安定基金109至113年度相關審核之資料含省紀部及原編造決算之機關間往來含文集附件與查核報告及審核報告之內容及出處提案人委員陳金輝蘇清泉邱振軍第二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11892.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11917.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
要求勞動部需於一個月內啟動辦理完善之社會對話作業並於各縣市辦理工會法修法意見公聽會並收集各基層勞工新生事後並於半年內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝 蘇清泉 廖偉祥 邱振軍 王育敏 盧憲一第三案 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11919.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11931.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
勞動部應積極向行政院人事總處提出要求進一步將公部門單位均先行納入事辦計畫與所有公部門事辦彈性育嬰假制度原要求勞動部於三個月內協調有關單位完成公部門機構納入事辦計畫之規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11938.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11964.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
提案人委員陳金輝、蘇清泉、邱振軍第四案要求勞動部應立即啟動行政調查查明相關責任人並依據公務員懲戒法將涉案人員移送懲戒法庭處理此外應主動將案件及相關物證移送檢查機關偵辦勞動部應於一個月內完成上述事項並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告辦理情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11965.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11975.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
以确保就业安定基金真正用于保障国人就业权益落实基金设置宗旨提案人委员陈金辉、邱振军、苏清泉宣读完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11978.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11993.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
好那我們一件一件處理請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見報告主席跟各位委員第一案跟審計部有關倒數第四行建議文字修正一下第一個原請審計長建議改成原請審計部 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11997.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12019.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
於兩週內提供就業安定基金109年度至113年度相關審核通知那個資料建議用我們法定的用語就是叫做相關審核通知那下面文字那個括號建議都劃掉因為審核通知裡面附件都包括這些資料都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12019.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12038.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
然後括號結束那個與查核報告這個留著然後後面那個及審核報告之內容及出處因為審核報告像113年度都還沒有編所以在兩個禮拜內是不可能提供的所以建議把那個及審核報告之內容及出處建議文資把它刪除謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12046.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12067.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
因為省政府剛剛講到這個括號裡面的內容全部都已經有包含了所以也沒有刪的必要吧就是文字上我們是這樣建議啦那尊重委員最後的決議我覺得可以保留括號裡面的內容那其他的照您的修改好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12079.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12088.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
如果委員這邊的文字因為我們是建議這樣調整啦因為整個審核通知裡面包括附件裡面其實內容都會附在裡面這個我們來配合處理好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12104.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12112.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
你後面改的地方原請審計部於兩週內提供階安定基金109年度至113年度相關審核通知審計部及 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12128.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12139.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我看原編造之決算機就不用寫了就是及相關機關間之往來含文及附件與審核報告與查核報告好的 這樣可以 謝謝是好那第一案就修改後通過那第二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12159.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12163.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
這個明天會有公聽會明天是廠廠公會不是嗎公會 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12187.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12208.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
跟委員報告好有關參訪工會的修法我們是依據憲法法庭判決第七號要兩年內要在母法上去明定我們當然也參考憲法法庭的判決也認為是我們合理的去限制參訪工會成立要求一定的要有人事跟會計獨立避免牢牢相爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12209.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12232.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
然后造成很多的会晤架可能造成更多的劳方的冲突也认为这样的一个规范是合理的当初我们在订的时候也是要开过对话也召开邀请的劳资双方都有来表达意见大致的方向也都朝向说把它移到魔法这个方向所以修正条文已经送到委员会来了 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12233.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12259.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
是不是這個部分我們這樣的一個提案呢能不能只留下在收集基層勞工的意見我覺得可以我們再來收集一下勞工的意見那至於社會對話的話再把勞資雙方再找來再來討論這個部分恐怕因為資方對於工會的成立他一定有一點他們本身的一些看法因為有會務假的問題然後再把勞資雙方再找來對話 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12261.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12277.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
恐怕對這樣那個修法可能會找人也比較沒有這樣那個需要所以可不可以就留下最後那句話就是收集各基層勞工新生然後前面那一段啟動辦理完善之社會都要作業並於各縣市辦理修法意見公聽會這裡可不可以就不要放 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12280.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12294.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
這個是蘇昭偉還有邱政軍委員以及我都有接到一些團體的陳情啊他們是希望跟你們對話不是跟資方對話所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12297.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12315.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
對應該是說還是他們是還是希望可以表達他們的聲音對那個跟陳成為說明因為如果是所謂辦理社會對話就會一定是這個所謂社會對話就會有資方啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12320.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12338.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
我覺得都可以吧因為我們只要邀請來讓大家有意見可以表達那當然我們沒有預設立場因為大家聽一下大家的意見綜合起來再做決定可不可以我們我們可不可以讓我們其實可以來就是說收集勞資雙方意見也可以你要怎麼收集 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12344.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12365.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
我們其實用各種方式來收集因為我想跟不是啊 那這個公聽會也是一種嘛因為明天就會有公聽會嘛對啊 明天不是就要開了嗎明天就有公聽會 其實就會來嘛對啊 那如果明天辦完公聽會就是一種收集的話那當然 這我們也OK啊你們有一間嗎明天是未還辦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12376.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12396.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
其實這個議題我覺得比較是你們跟工會的溝通到底有沒有真的進行相關的溝通因為當時知道說委員會要排這個案子的時候的確很多的就是地方的這個工會團體他們是很緊張的因為他們覺得長期以來都是種 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12397.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12413.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
就是如果說他有各地分會那大概都是總公司那邊的公會代表但是他代表不代表他們地方的一些聲音跟意見所以這個議題我相信你們也理解那這個事情其實不用那麼的匆忙你們那時候想要很快這個委員會就是過 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12415.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12440.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
但是這件事情有那麼急嗎?我個人覺得其實沒有到那麼急你其實可以再多收集這個大家的意見因為基本上工會的成立是希望可以達到多元聲音的表達而不是變成制約成一種聲音或者是說這個工會他可能就是因為這個資方他比較是去跟他溝通然後就會變成跟資方的立場很靠近但是其他比較遠的在地的 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12440.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12466.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
他們那些員工的心聲反而下情都沒有上達我想這個部長你自己過去跟勞工團體有些接觸重點是在這邊那怎麼避免防止這樣的情況發生跟網友說明第一個確實這一題在工會界是有不太一樣的看法就是正反都有那正反的意見其實我們也都有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12468.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12480.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
那就失效上面的话确实有一些时间的压力因为这个修法其实是来自于宪法法庭的判决宪法法庭是判两年内他的那个办法会失效 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12481.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12503.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
所以為什麼其實是有一點時間壓力的點是來自於憲法法庭他應該是5月17號5月17號會失效所以我們為什麼在時間點上其實是希望能夠在這段時間裡面趕快來處理這些相關的問題的原因是這樣子那當然也很謝謝委員會明天辦相關的公聽會那讓大家的意見可以併成 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12504.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12523.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
那可是我的意思是說其實各界的意見都清楚那我們也可以看明天的這個公聽會的狀況可是我們自己覺得時間上不宜再多拖因為多拖的狀況下可能會讓這部分變成是沒有一個相關的規範然後可能會衍生後續的一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12526.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12550.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
主要時間點的原因是在這件事情上面因為修法法庭是判是5月17號相關的他的這個原本的這個辦法就會失效對是但是我們現在就希望是能在在之前但是因為這個修法本身其實他就是修一個公衛法六之一的一個單條對 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12560.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12568.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
但是我說他如果出現了一個空窗那空窗可能衍生的問題會更不好處理因為他等於相關規範消失 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12574.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12590.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
其實這個事情是需要有一定的規範但內容怎樣我們可以討論可是我說內容可以討論可是時間點上我們真的認為是有時間的緊迫性的今天這個臨時提案這個你要怎麼改 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12593.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12615.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我們可不可以改成說特決議要求勞動部在一個月收集各勞資或者不要寫勞資啦就是收集各界勞工意見然後後面半年內向本委員提交訴明報告應該沒有問題吧對不對好不好在那一邊好了就是最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12625.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12645.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
可是這是對但是這是這是原本的文字啊你你剛不是說到5月17你沒有時間壓力現在又半年後才提交半年是上面所以如果改成一個月我們也可以啊就是最後一句話改成一個月內向本委員會提交書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12646.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12672.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
如果我們衛環委員會辦一場那你們也就辦一場這樣子是你們做得到的嗎我們可以辦啊可以啊好那就各各辦一場吧衛環委明年辦嘛對不對那我們也可以辦一場這樣子你是勞動部自己辦就對了對啊可以好那現在陳委員就照他這樣修正可以嗎可以就一人辦一場好 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12673.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12678.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
好 謝謝那第二案就照修改後通過第三案劉建國召委你有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12688.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12703.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
來 第三案第三案的部分在這邊跟委員報告那陳委員 蘇委員 邱委員提案的是希望說把所有的公部門都來做一個彈性運營流行的事辦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12705.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12726.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
計劃但是這邊的話因為是所有的公部門都要那先先納進來示範那在三個月裡面的話要來協調有關單位並且重點是說要完成啊那這個部分的話因為涉及到有其他的單位那有軍公教那這個這個運營流執庭心有涉及到軍公教的都有適用這個法令 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12727.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12753.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
那所以這個部分要到能夠完成這件事情可能是不是有其他單位有沒有我們現在想不到的問題或是會遇到的困難所以是不是建議這樣子可以在三個月內協調改成會商有關單位然後研議完成改成研議就這兩個有四個字就是協調改成會商有關單位那再來研議公部門機構納入示範計畫的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12757.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12784.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
好可以可以不過這個就是部長一直想做的事情嗎是所以這個這個村委員提的這個提案的概念上面我是贊成的只是就是就時間點上能不能夠在所謂三個月內去完成去協調全台灣這麼多的公部門這個事情我們覺得可能不一定可以可是甚至我們其實想做的不只是公部門啊我們甚至是往想往私部門去啊對啊好那就照 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12785.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12787.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
照你們這樣修改謝謝我請問一下部長這個預運價是一般是半年低流停對 半年那你這個好像要改成好像可以單天請這樣一天請這樣不知道要不要再過六年 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12810.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12838.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
也不是不是就是說總共的現在大家的倡議的概念是total還是是6個月可是可能可以拿部分的這個部分的流停他變成可以單天來去做請領的做法但還是在這個原本的6個月還是在183天內對他不是在外加的這樣子對概念是這樣子好那第三案就修正後通過來最後一案來 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12841.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12867.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
第四案主席以及各位委員那關於第四案的部分因為審計部的審查報告也有要本部追究相關責任那同時那那個提案裡面也有提到說監察就是移送懲戒法 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12868.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12891.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
的部分因為按照懲戒法的規定本部對於檢任久之等以下才有辦法直接移送懲戒法院那只要是檢任以上的按照程序我們要移送給監察院那監察院調查認為有違法失職以後他提起彈劾案來移送給那個懲戒法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12892.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12916.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
那監察院已經也立案調查了剛剛部長在答詢時候也有提到那至於說司法偵辦的部分那本部在第一時間檢查新北地檢署跟台北地檢署在偵辦的時候本部已經積極配合偵辦把相關的證券資料都已經提供給新北檢以及那個台北地檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12917.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12937.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
那因為新北檢最近針對分屬謝毅榮的部分已經提起公訴了所以呢要求本部把案件跟相關的卷證再移給檢察官來偵辦這部分在實務上我們可能會有困難所以這個提案我們建議可以修正為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12938.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12952.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
原此提案要求勞動部應依審計部審查報告追究相關責任並積極配合監察院及司法機關偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12954.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12980.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
那以确保相关违法行为能受到适当法律处置劳动部应于两个月内完成上述事项并向立法院社会福利及卫生环境委员会报告办理情形以确保就业安定基金真正用于保障国人就业痊愈落实基金设置总值以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12982.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12988.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
齁 要嚇死啦 你在說什麼 什麼什麼欸 你改改跟提案的 兩分鐘 休息兩分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
13013.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13033.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13050.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13050.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13078.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13102.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13113.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13113.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13151.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13163.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
好啊是在說什麼?這個第四案已經講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13171.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13189.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
第四案剛才就是我們的修正意見剛好跟陳經理委員說明一下我們再唸一次好不好我們後面那邊寫原此提案要求勞動部應依審計部審查報告追究相關責任並積極配合監察院及司法機關偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13191.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13202.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
然後後面這個跟懲戒法跟懲罰的部分刪掉然後接上以確保相關違法行為能受到適當法律處置然後勞動部應於兩個月內完成上訴實項這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13206.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13218.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
好 那就到修正後通過來 臨時提案全部處理完畢我們接下來請陳穎 陳委員 質詢我們中午不休息啊 要吃便當的就吃了 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13246.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13248.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
好那我們請黃秀安委員質詢謝謝主席我們請部長歡迎好 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13264.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13284.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
部長好 今天就勞動部的這個救安基金違規使用的部分那我是希望未來不要再有這樣類似的狀況那針對這個之前這個基金使用不當的這樣的一個狀況那我想請教就是說我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13286.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13303.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
原本我們用救安基金去從事可能就媒體文宣或者是購買一些紀念品那原本這個應該也許我看到主計好像這個是不是說原本應該是要在公務預算裡面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13305.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13333.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
那後來你們是用這個救安基金用救安基金來使用是審計會觀念不高那未來譬如說你們今年或者是明年原本一些媒宣這個文宣的這個部分啊或者是你們可能這個勞工的一些可能辦什麼樣的比賽那可能原本都用救安基金那你們未來如果這個救安基金不符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13334.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13361.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
這樣的一個規定的話那你們要怎麼去用公務預算那公務預算如果你們又編不足的話那你們這些業務要怎麼執行跟黃委員說明其實保安部一直長期以來我們都有公務預算編列不足的狀況那這部分當然我們現在也跟主計跟行政院希望能夠合理的爭取至少在其他部會他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13362.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13384.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
用公務預算的部分請也讓我們是可以編在公務預算裡面不然我們過去其實常常我們的公務預算的規模反而是縮減的那才會變成說有一些業務的項目會變成是用救安基金來使用那就會衍生產生爭議的問題所以第一個我們其實在救安基金的改革裡面第一個開宗明義就是說希望能夠合理的爭取編列公務預算這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13385.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13396.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那第二點是我們也檢討了雖然剛才包括很謝謝這個審計部其實給我們的一些指導那我們會做安全遵照審計的指導來進行可是我們自己也做了內部的檢討這個內部的檢討包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13400.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13428.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我們自己確實認為這裡面會有一些管理機制不夠的問題所以我們也提出來了這個救安基金的強化管理的策進的方案也有部分我必須坦承說我自己覺得也有某些業務的執行可能有過於鋪張或者是效益不佳的問題我們也提出相關的檢討那剛剛很多人也講到關於開口契約的問題我們其實也把相關的開口契約在去年12月的時候就直接完全的停下來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13430.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13451.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
也就是現在我們的開口契約不能夠再像過去這樣子的使用它的範圍這麼樣子可能彈性過大的狀況會不容易管理或不容易範定所以這些機制面的改革跟改進我們現在都在進行中而且已經改進了這部分就是希望要避免剛剛黃媛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13453.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13472.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
未來再發生類似的事情我想其實這大家都不樂意見到所以我們用機制的方法用制度的方法來去杜絕過去可能大家不樂見看到的這些爭議這是我想這段時間我們跟很多公務我們部裡面公務的同仁很努力的一個方向那現在也很有成果了 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13472.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13493.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
好那我們當然就是說不希望有再有類似這樣的狀況可是先決條件就是說你原本需要做的一些業務你可能就要在公務預算你就要把它編制要不然你變成說你公務預算你沒有錢那你當然就是說救安基金就類似一個小金庫那我可以可以從那邊這個用預算來來 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13496.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13510.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
支付 然後可能你們辦一些活動我之前有參加過我們勞動部辦的勞工的歌唱比賽我有去看 我沒有唱啦 我有去看啦我覺得說 其實這對勞工來說其實很多勞工他們是真的非常喜歡唱歌 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13518.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13547.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
這真的這個不是只有勞工是所有人應該都很喜歡唱歌啦而且如果又有一個舞台的話其實對勞工來講他們是非常開心的那我覺得說那如果說未來當然我覺得救安基金後面已經被弄得好像有點就是說你們如果沒有用在正當的這個活動上面或正當的業務上面可能就會會讓人家詬病嘛那我覺得如果未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13548.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13575.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
該做的還是要做那再來就是說公務基金我覺得該編組你們就是要把它編組不要再去挪用不要再去挪用那個救安基金救安基金可能有它更大的一個功能歡迎我想跟你說救安基金確實對我們很多勞工不管是就業不管是很多的勞工的福祉非常非常重要我們為什麼現在希望做出一個更嚴格的管理規範的原因是因為我們真的不希望救安基金再被外界誤解 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13576.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13596.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
或者是被外界某種汙名化過去可能有些爭議但是我們就徹底的檢討了所以希望未來救安基金的使用他就是能夠讓大家覺得清清楚楚回到正軌那該能夠拿來幫助勞工的我們其實就好好的來去使用讓他能夠幫助勞工勞工也不用覺得這個錢好像是來自救安基金就會覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13597.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13614.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
好像是不是來自一個不正當的地方沒有我們就在機制上面都已經改革了就是該做範定的該限制的我們就把它直接限制出來就救安基金可以使用的範圍是在哪裡我覺得你應該要把它規範得清楚就像剛剛大家講到我舉個例子就像 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13616.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13632.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
我們現在是把救安基金使用在它必須要是直接服務勞工的那些地點比方說你的救福站比方說你的訓練中心這是直接服務勞工的地方這個地方的運作你可以用救安基金我們認為這是幫助勞工有道理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13632.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13652.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
可是如果是我們這個可能分署或我們署裡面或我們部裡面的這些行政支出這不是直接服務勞工的我們未來就認為這個就不該使用救安基金他就該回到公務預算的編列來去做使用是不是直接服務勞工這一刀是切在這裡面的那至少我覺得這是相對清楚的一個切分 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13653.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13664.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
好那我想請教就是說呃現在就是說這個呃7224萬好那呃你們有說要用公務預算去歸電嗎好目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13667.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13694.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
我們目前第一個還是是我們會依照審計的結果跟相關規範來做那用公務預算編列來規定是過去被判定修正檢列追回的時候的方法之一但具體的做法我們當然還是可以來跟行政院主計包括跟審計來討論可是過去公務預算規定確實是做法之一那如果說這個立法院這邊如果又不同意的話那你們怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13697.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13719.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
我們當然還是希望盡量的說明因為就目前審計的潘修正檢列裡面的話某部分他的要去救安基金追回跟檢列其實第一個你還是會需要一些這個經費的來源所以我們也只能先盡量的說明但具體的做法我們會跟行政院這邊再做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13719.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13739.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
好好那另外我想請教部長就是說你們在4月7號有宣布一個多元陪伴照顧服務事辦計畫4月7號開始正式上路那我看到你們的那個服務這個計畫是只有編列35名的這個看護 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13741.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13769.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
那整個這個服務的這個金額就是24小時然後是落在2600到3500這中間那這個跟一般的這個可能移工的那個薪資可能一般人如果他在請那個移工的話其實可能薪資可能沒有那麼高那如果說申請那個台籍的看護的話薪資是差不多的再更高 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13770.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13793.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
其實是差不多的24小時差不多三千多三千多差不多也是落在這個中間我跟黃委員說明這個計畫確實現在是一個小規模的事半計畫那當然相關的規定也好收費也好未來當然都還可以滾動的檢討來討論但是這個計畫有一個很重要的地方是 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13794.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13816.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
他其實目前設定的主要是針對這些臨時短期緊急的需求那可是如果在目前在自費市場上面如果是看到這些臨時短期緊急的話他可能他的收費會在比長時間再來的更高一點所以我們主要是目前是設定在這比方說會有一些他從醫院出院他還來不及接上長照 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13817.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13846.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
或者從醫院出院他的失能狀態還沒有辦法很清楚的判定沒有辦法申請到相關的這些長照的資源的他可以用這個計畫來做短期的銜接那這是主要的目的但我知道大家外界目前對價格的部分會再做一些討論我覺得你們可能要再做一些參考就是說參考其他的可能要去討論一下有時候訂這個價格下去我覺得可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13847.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13870.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
如果訂的太高我們一般的那種家庭是不是有辦法負荷那也許可能會造成其他的排擠啦我覺得說這個價格我覺得應該可以再去做一個討論那另外就是說你們4月1號開始試辦那你們預計是要試辦多久目前是試辦23年 對多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13875.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13878.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
三年三年那你們多久會檢討一次我們應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13883.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13911.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
半年我們就會檢討 半年會檢討一次因為我看你們其實規模也很小啊只有編列35名的 它其實是一個小規模就很小我不知道說到底會有多少人來跟你們申請就是多少人會來申請這個我覺得會存疑耶目前六家的機構是有一些相關的其實已經來做申請了這樣子就是從4月7號開始已經有一些來陸陸續續來申請了但確實他們都會有一些他們特定的需求就是剛才說臨時短期緊急的一些需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13912.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13923.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
好那我希望就是說半年後如果你們檢討完之後也可以讓我們知道就是說他到底成效是怎樣好沒問題好謝謝謝謝方委員謝謝部長那接續我們請陳妍陳委員謝謝主席麻煩請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13948.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13973.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
部長好我想先請教一下部會首長跟這個各單位的一級主管事實的輪調這是一種常態那透過這個輪調這樣的一個機制其實是可以減少這個機弊的發生那當然事實有新人的注入新人有新氣象那有時候包袱也少一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13973.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13993.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
就像這個當初總統交付任務給部長的時候那這些任務可能就是有些是這個前任的部長們他們沒有辦法處理好的事情所以我想請教部長就是說你覺得這個部長大概任期做幾年比較剛好 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13998.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
14022.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
我想我的任期其實是要讓社會或者是整體的政務來做評價我想我問這個其實他沒有一個標準的答案啦我就單純的問說您個人的看法這樣子那你如果不好意思講自己的話那我就再請教那你覺得一級主管呢我覺得都沒有標準答案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
14023.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
14030.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
是都沒有標準答案所以你就3年5年8年10年還是20年我覺得沒有我恐怕都不一定有標準答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
14031.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
14060.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
好那我想有時候也是要看表現對不對好你說沒有標準答案那因為每個人表現不一樣所以那沒有關係那我們就是也可以透過一些數據上的檢視我們來看看好那我想接下來我們就來檢視一下這位任期贏過各部會所有部長以及所有一級主管的資安署署長我們來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
14062.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
14065.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
在過去署長就是說你們勞動部有一個這個營造業墜落打擊年的計劃請問有沒有達標 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
14088.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
14094.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
報告我們最後打幾年的計畫是去年我們希望降30%確實沒有達標好沒有達標好謝謝那這個這個計畫主要的績效指標你剛剛講可以再講一次嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
14104.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
14120.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
謝謝委員關心 營商業是台灣的痛所以我們希望去年能夠營商業最弱降百分之三十那最後數字是沒有降到百分之三十 只降到百分之十幾而已確實是沒有達到最多減債的標準主要當時主要的精進作為是 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
14124.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
14152.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
包委員當然除了強力檢查之外我們透過部會合作還有營造團體一些來做促進因為包括公共工程跟民間工程都有大量的工作在進行所以我們不是只有勞檢在做促進的還有希望所有的那個資源都有加入有很多的這個方式並行嘛那我再請教就是說那署長回想這個回頭這樣回想檢討那為什麼沒有達標原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
14154.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
14170.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
報仁我們發現就是第一個是承攬管理是還是沒有做落實特別是有些業主在交付給營造廠作業的時候業主負安全的責任也相對偏低所以我們其實在去年就開始著手希望修職安法把有關營造業相關的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
14171.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14190.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
透過法治制度來做機制上的處置跟處理那這個有關修法的部分也要請委員及各界來給我們支持跟指導我想有效的有用的我們都會支持那你覺得說這個沒有達標的這些原因有沒有跟部署的表現不好或者你自己個人的領導統一有問題有關係呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14195.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14217.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
縣委員我們設定目標是大家往前前進沒有達到目標當然是首長負一定的責任但是我還非常肯定我們各檢察機構同仁為了要營造減災我們也不會讓到每個檢察機構他有降低的目標值當然有些地方的檢察機構包括比如說某些縣政府檢察機構沒有達標但我們也請各檢察機構首長做進一步的檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14220.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14236.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
我問這個問題我沒有責備的意思啦我們就是提出來檢討嘛有些問題可能所以我覺得重大的政策目標假如沒有打標我們是整個勞動部尤其是政務部的首長我們都必須要一起來檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14237.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14255.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
所以事務的沒有關係我認為政務的首長的責任也很大我是這樣子在思考自己的責任我有去檢視職安署的這個宣導網頁啦其實有很多的海報資料提供的事業單位你給它索取或下載 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14256.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14282.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
這個資料其實也是都是做得不錯啦那可是呢就是說資料是很不錯但是還是有這麼多的勞工在墜落那部長你從一個客觀不是職安衛領域的部長你覺得這樣的原因或者是說換一個角度來看當你不清楚狀況或原因的時候你當下你會想要知道什麼樣的資料或訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14284.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14302.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
當然因為我上任以後其實對於這個罪惡的問題其實我非常非常關注所以當然我們其實也跟治安署幾度的討論怎麼樣精進的原因也包括接下來會提治安法的修法可是也不只治安法的修法也包括這裡面其實有些做法上我覺得法尊上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14303.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14329.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
我覺得你沒有回答到我問題就是我剛剛問的是說你不清楚當狀況跟原因那個當下因為事件發生嘛你最想要知道的這個資料或訊息是什麼我想你不會去想要修法的問題啦不會立刻馬上要看修法嗎我想這個比較接近的答案應該是說我們想要從這個職災調查報告上面去分析啦那 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14330.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14346.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
就是說有哪些真實發生事故的情況那是當初沒有設想到或者是說沒有落實的部分我們應該是會想要從這些調查報告去反省嘛去看看問題出在哪裡嘛而且就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14347.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14371.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
這些資料應該是開放給外界都可以使用然後讓許多這個職安衛的這個專家都可以共同來診斷的問題才對嗎我不曉得部長有沒有同意好那可是呢你們號稱這個目前的職災資料有揭露公開我們看一下這個這個PowerPoint裡面的內容我認為是在這個虛擬故事敷衍了事 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14372.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14393.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
就說如同這個簡報所揭露的我們來這個幫你們截圖來看你們自己問一下看一下這樣的資料是不是在部長當初您擔任立委的時候所要求的水準這樣的資料公布公開有什麼差別呢那到底這樣的資料我們能夠從這些資料能夠得到什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14395.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14421.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
好 我跟陳仁說明其實我到部以後其實我也跟資安署說過我們其實要非常非常善用資訊公開的這樣子的一個工具來讓我們很多的事業單位必須承擔更多的社會上面的責任跟期待所以如果在資訊公開上面其實有做得更好的地方我覺得就請陳仁就即刻的來讓我們知道那我覺得能做的我們就趕快來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14421.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14447.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
我想我肯定部長的態度啦就是說那我這樣聽就是說那在那部長的意思就是說那你願意要來全面公開這些資料嗎就是作為未來職債預防的參考當然在在有包括個資法等等相關的授權之下我覺得能夠公開的部分我自己的傾向是可以擴大公開所以這個是不夠的嘛很不足啊我們看不出就 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14447.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14462.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
沒有辦法從這些資訊裡面你只是講一個開放發生的地點然後死亡人數的檢查機構看這些要幹嘛呢能夠知道什麼呢對未來的預防沒有太大的幫助啊我覺得對公開上面的dataset的細節我們可以討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14463.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14490.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
資訊的部分當然各自我們要盡到保密的責任那其他該公開的要公開那同樣的道理就是職災預防的措施我們還有這些職災地圖啦職安卡的配套那你覺得說我不曉得署長認為說這些措施的功效在哪裡啦因為事業單位跟勞工有因為你們這些設計然後就改變變得更安全嗎我剛剛是說署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14495.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14510.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
建委的指教任何的我們推出的政策、測試我們都會再做進一步的檢討那跟委員報告是這個重大災害公開網確實是為了讓全民能夠了解在哪個建案、在哪個工地發生過什麼事故那不管是民眾要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14511.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14532.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
那個你也是講很多啦 就是說有沒有 這比較起來有跟沒有而已其實答案就是沒有啦 因為我知道你們做了很多的事情好啦 今年我有特別在檢視老人所發布的這個113年的原住民的職災發生率我在這邊我要很難過的講 就是說已經連續下降4年了連續下降4年喔 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14536.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14541.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
去年就再一次上升一下子又回到三年前的水準 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14543.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14567.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
你們不要跟我講說是因為災保法通過之後投保人數增加的原因千萬不要講這個理由那111年開始實施以來齁它起碼就是說畢竟它這樣實施以來就是連續下降兩年然後113年又一下子增加了7%總共增加了64件的重大職災那這個營造業的職災是最多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14568.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14591.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
所以這個部分部長你覺得有什麼可以評論或者要回應那個跟陳報告看到這樣子的趨勢的話我認為當然我覺得會需要重點的來做檢討跟原因的分析因為這等於是有點他是一個趨勢的反轉他不只是這個放緩而已而是趨勢的反轉所以我們當然我會來跟我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14595.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14623.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
那针对这个数据背后的原因我们来做一个彻底的了解千万不要有那种美化数据的情形发生计算有很多的方式那这个因为劳动部的精进作为应该是说建立已经是建立在不错的基础上希望可以做得更好才叫精进那这个全国劳工产业这个全产业的这个值在千人率113年是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14624.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14630.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
署長有數據嗎你們現在有資料嗎這個數據也在網路上做公開我們113年的你什麼時候在網路上公開我們勞動部網站就查到現在是多少113年全部的數據是2.375所以這個是什麼時候出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14651.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14677.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
你們什麼時候公告的我是請教公告的時間我們的統計處就會定時的公告啊對啦 定時是什麼時候啦每個月都會update一次每個月update好 這個月是第一次公開嗎還是現在四月了所以你們是公開我的理解是我們勞保局統計出來的結果資料會給我們的統計處統計處會到我們官網做公開我知道啦 我是問你什麼時候嘛你說我現在不知道你待會跟我講沒關係啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14680.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14681.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
因為你們的5年職災減半的經營計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14700.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14712.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
不曉得就是說跟之前那個113年的這個打擊年的差別有沒有在哪邊然後跟針對這個墜落的部分有沒有新的措施跟方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14713.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14738.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
有還是沒有 公務員報告 去年最弱的打擊連沒有達到我們的預期目標 各界都跟我們指教所以我也跟所有講的機構首長開過的原商會議我們當然今年是希望朝這個目標去努力除此之外 我們修法也可以把營商會同業公會還有國土署他們的力量 建管的力量一起拉進來 希望能夠把最弱的打擊做得更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14740.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14764.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
所以你5年職災減半計劃是有還是沒有就是有沒有把罪漏含進來有 報告委員我們是2030年職災減半計劃好啦 那個半秒鐘可以回答的問題可以你的老毛病又犯了那是這樣齁 就是說也要提醒 要問署長就是說職安署的這個組長跟科長等主管未來會不會有很多人要提早退休或離職啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14766.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14785.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
報告委員非常謝謝提這個問題因為我們確實看到我們的工作其實是壓力蠻大的同仁有些是為了要照顧家庭有些提早退休有些剩下規劃確實也有一些同仁是想要先離開那我都誠心希望同仁能夠繼續來跟我一起合作跟努力當然有幾個同仁就是為了照顧家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14785.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14806.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
要提早退休那我就是講那麼多看起來就是真的那我只是要講說因為你現在講的理由都是從你嘴巴講出來的真實的理由可能大家會放在心裡面那我要提醒就是說這個預防職災這不是一個表面上政績的數字是 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14807.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14825.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
那麼而是每一個這個職在勞工家庭的血淚故事那反映的是這樣所以我希望勞動部真的可以好好的檢討那不管是萬年的主管去掌控了這些資料開放不夠的問題或者是求援兼裁判也有可能這樣的問題或者是讓內部機構劣幣驅逐良幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14828.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14852.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
好這樣的情形也是有發生所以這些都是直接間接去傷害到勞工然後讓這個職災會持續發生的一個兇手這些原因所以我想請部長好好的去想一想那怎麼做呢到底要怎麼做才能夠有顯著的改善所以你剛才講的這些這些狀況的發生我想我作為一個首長都有責任那我們會來治好這麼檢討謝謝好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14857.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14861.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長接續我們請劉建國召委諮詢好 謝謝主席有請審計部理副審計長劉委員好副審計長好審計部最主要的詞權 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14886.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14904.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
簡單說明好不好主要是監督預算執行還有考核財務效能跟核定財務責任核定財務責任嘛是也有稽查財務上的缺失嘛違失嘛對不對核定相關財務的這個責任嘛是所以基本上你們是在監督各級政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14905.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14918.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
機關的整個這個財政上的這個收支的情況然後也要這個審定這個決算等等最主要最主要還是有個財務上的這樣的一個維持都是你們在做這個稽查沒有錯嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14920.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14941.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
所以基本上我們要監督人家的這個機關那要對外整個調查整個集合整個審查的報告要非常非常的精準不為過嘛對不對好所以今天今天你能不能就蘇昭偉排的這個勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追悔及究責這個題目表達你簡單的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14946.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14971.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
這個議題剛剛前面已經報告就是各界其實都非常關注那關注我想分為兩個部分一個部分是過去發現那些疏失以審計部的立場必須針對過去發生的原因還有根據我們查核發現的相關事證那我們會做一些財務上的監督上要做的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14972.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14993.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
那另外就是後續後續就是這個事情既然已經發生後續怎麼樣就那個救安定基金這樣救安定基金本身是一個獨立的財務個體他本身基金設置有他的目的我們希望能夠從跟這個行政機關一起來努力讓這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14995.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
15015.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
從我們查核發現外部的角度觀察到還有各界的意見我們把它中整提供給勞動部來參考希望能夠在制度面能夠做一些改善好 謝謝副省長我的時間有限了那我們就從第一個面向來談你剛才討論到了嘛那你看今天張偉白這個主題到底是違規還是違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
15018.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
15022.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
有違法的也有違規的有違法亦有違規違法部分因為檢調都已經處理了有違法亦有違規就是副審議長對這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
15038.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
15057.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
今天主題的這樣一個看法嘛對不對好那我就請教一下你們給勞動部的含糊是民國109萬到113萬的總共有7000多萬都接受安利基金在使用上與基金業務用途關聯性不高是沒有錯嘛這是你們所寫出來的報告嘛對不對屬公務預算資應換籌也沒有錯嘛屬公務預算資應換籌 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
15063.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
15092.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
這個文字我們其實是其實後面有其他文字因為我們覺得說那個部分我們尊重勞動部是勞動業務的主管機關他認為這個跟我整個勞動業務有關我們不能有其他的不同意見這個我們尊重好 所以關聯性並不高就是說不能使用在這個救援基金上面跟基金的用途是關聯性不高但是他應該可以屬於用在公務預算裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
15093.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
15112.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
這個必須勞動部他們根據自己個案因為裡面個案非常多我們列舉出來包括演唱會或者是宣導部分那個部分我想有一部分應該都是跟勞動業務有直接相關是嘛有相關嘛對不對但是跟救援基金的關聯性不高不高應該是這麼講嘛我應該對你這個報告裡面的這樣的一個解釋應該是理解的嘛跟你要表達的應該是看完一致嘛對好 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
15122.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
15124.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
那如果這樣有沒有所謂的違規違法因為這裡面我們現在就針對這個範疇就好有違規跟違法嗎違法部分其他違法部分就不談嘛可以在公務預算去動之但是不能在居安基金這邊動之那基本上有違規違法的問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
15144.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
15167.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
如果從預算法25條來看因為預算法25條規定是不能在預算外動之經費所以這個部分是需要審酌相關規定審酌相關規定 對但是如果說陳磊所講的他們拍影片做相關的宣導然後在各部會其實原本的預算裡面也都有編列這樣的一個計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
15169.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
15178.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
那在這個救援基金基本上不應該來編這樣的一個經費所以就回歸到公務預算去做支應 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
15179.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
15200.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
才屬於合情合理合法嘛對不對應該是這麼講嘛好所以就是簡單講就是矯正回歸到公務預算來做這個支應嘛如其上是這樣嘛對不對好我是必須要這麼講啊如果他如果以這個困所裡面他並沒有違規違法的問題只不過他動之的情況確實有違反到相關的法令那簡單講 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
15202.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
15220.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
再比較從第二個角度去思考它還是有違規之前啦但是是否涉及到違法我覺得那倒不至於啦是這個幻蟲這我個人的簡單看法你看到各部位都拍了這麼多片 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15221.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15231.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
我倒要幫這個勞動部講幾句話這麼多部位拍了這麼多片勞動部到2023年還拍到這個勞動萬歲為勞工拍的影片的萬歲還入圍到2024的坎城創意獎然後也得到這個國內的32屆的4A創意獎最佳長秒數的廣告也得到這個金獎其他部位我看還沒有得到這麼多獎項 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15250.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15266.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
總而言之業務總之反正他不應該編載救援基金就是不應該編載救援基金啦是他就是要回歸到這公務預算去支用嘛對不對所以我今天要表達這樣的一個論述基本上以審計部在審查在查額在 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15267.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15282.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
整個處理這個相關的預算支應過程裡面,是我有為師,也是你有義務範圍那我們就要把他校正嘛,對不對好,那謝謝副審計長的答覆,請副審計長可以回座位謝謝委員來,有請部長部長,我跟副審計長的對話很清楚嘛那為什麼這些錢一定要在居安基金,不在勞動部裡面去做支應 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15292.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15314.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
一個很大的原因是因為長期以來其實勞動部的這個部本部的預算的編列真的都不足工預算都不足所以後來其實有很多的支出就開始好像就會越來越依賴專基金那這也是很多我們現在看到的一個問題的根源系統性的根源的來源所以你們有做怎樣的矯正嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15316.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15325.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
第一個是我們其實那時候在提出救安基金的改革做法的時候我們第一個步驟就是先跟行政院跟主計來表達我們未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15326.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15352.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
在其他部會如果他們照理來說應該是用公務預算的我們要爭取我們也要用公務預算比方說有很多的宣傳這些宣傳就像剛剛劉燕說的其實我們有很多宣傳這些績效他甚至上了國際的舞台他其實是好的可是因為我們的公務預算邊內不足變成他要去用救安基金這時候就會判定跟救安基金關聯不高或不該用救安基金問題接下來這些我們都希望能夠回到公務預算這是第一個第二個事情是我覺得有確實有一些部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15353.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15379.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
我認為我們在這個執行上面是可以在做效益上面的檢討的那包括這些相關的規範也包括這次在審計裡面有講到開口契約的問題我是覺得我們的開口契約也該做更嚴格的規範不用像 不該像過去這樣這麼這個所謂開口契約的彈性這麼大也很容易引起爭議你開口契約怎麼去做一個改善你能不能簡單在委員會說明清楚好 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15381.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15409.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
過去其實在開口企業裡面你會看到很多影片或者是活動它都放在開口企業裡面其實容易出爭議的就會是這些拍攝影片或者是活動的辦理未來我們會把這些影片跟活動的辦理都從開口企業裡面拿出來也就是它該依照採購法來去做相關的採購招標的就走這個路而不用只是把它放在開口企業裡面這個部分的改革已經從12月我們就開始去年12月就已經開始了 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15410.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15422.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
所以我們把那時候開口契約的標案是直接給停下來的OK好那另外另外一點你特別提到預算如果不足的情況之下要怎麼辦我們要會當然現在是要跟你爭取不到又要怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15425.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15453.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
我們會就是不能再從這個不相關聯性的的資應裡面去中救安基金去動之吧你做得到嗎對你當部長你做得到嗎當然對不對對不應該把這個事情再發生嗎對如果我們做出多少的成績反正關聯性跟救安基金沒有相關的你就不能從那邊動之嗎對未來就是不能做因為我們就是在用途面直接做出了限定了好了所以請能不能不要自行檢討清楚了避免未來的這個誤用跟錯用好不好好那最後一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15454.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15468.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
救援基金回歸到本題救援基金其實他最主要目的就是促進國民就業提升勞工扶植但是他在疫情的時間他也扮演著救火隊當時兩年是變了多少錢你記得吧要應付整個勞動市場這樣的大變動要應付首位的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15476.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15485.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
這個自營作業者還有無一定的雇主的生活補助以及勞工這個紓困貸款的利息補貼我們算了一下3年多應該是有400億左右嘛對不對3年多那我們這次要應變這一個關稅大戰的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15495.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15525.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
行政院在勞動部的範疇裡面變了多少錢同意你變了多少錢現在我們因為這次關稅的因應的時間長短還不一定我們目前是先框151但如果需要的話也可以再增加如果需要的話也可以再增加絕對需要也一定要增加所以你可能部長要積極的爭取未雨綢繆因為到底要打多久的關稅戰不清楚而且像川普這樣的一個政治狂人 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15526.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15538.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
你跟他講零關稅他要請你要再多拿一些錢來談甚至於他從這個領域裡面他又會跑到另外一個領域現在又講到我們下個禮拜或許我要特別跟蘇貞偉來討論要不要請物行委員會來針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15542.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15561.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
這個相關藥品的進出口的問題因為他又點到這一項了所以全世界皆因川普而要趕快做相關的機器的應用跟佈局跟還有一些跟長治久安的規劃尤其勞工的這樣的一個市場裡面這樣的環境裡面可能會衝擊到更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15564.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15588.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
我想這邊列舉的應該部長都很清楚嘛對不對出口最深的產業是電子資訊、鋼鐵、金屬機械、汽車零組件、建材、家電、農業部位還有蝴蝶籃、毛豆、茶葉以及烏龜魚、鬼頭刀、鱸魚等等等這全部都是勞力密集的中小企業及傳統製造業還有農業所以可能會很快的遇到很多的無薪假很多的被裁員 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15591.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15617.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
這個絕對不會亞於疫情的時間所受到的衝擊而且他來的速度會更快多久的時間不清楚我們會把財源都做好準備對OK你們之前有一個10萬的這個這個這個滴滴滴的貸款對不對那利息你知道那次10萬塊而已沒這個但是要還只不過免利息推這個案的時候總共幾個案幾個件數 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15621.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15633.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
幾個件數 你們還記得吧這10萬塊賺到多少錢 扣到多少工資是很好用的不用理性的 不用理性的生態的件數總共幾案 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15635.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15647.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
公務員報告一下,在109年跟110年有辦了勞工紓困貸款,總共合訂的件數有159萬多件159萬多件,一百五十九萬就對了,受理的過程其實就花過很多時間那我們要去補貼這些利息,勞動部花多少錢? |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15660.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15676.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
這兩年我們勞動部是補貼他一年勞工貸款第一年的利息那包括後來央行升息那我們大概總共花費了兩次的貸款總共花費了30億所以補貼利息這兩年我們就貼了30億了對不對等於佔現在關稅的這一個因應的錯是150億的五分之一了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15685.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15695.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
對不對 歷史補貼對啊 就歷史補貼而已歷史補貼就佔了你這一次應對關稅大政的151的五分之一的額度了嘛 對不對那你什麼時候要啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15696.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15725.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
這一次什麼時候要啟動?什麼時機?有評估過了嗎?目前看起來因為其實我們現在只是把相關的政策工具準備那有些部分會先實施有些部分後實施那比方說就像大家現在比較關心的可能減班休息的部分我們會優先的來先做實施所以剛才在講說包括像勞工的紓困貸款這是當時在疫情的時候可能比較中斷的時候會來推出的做法所以我們目前其實也是在盤點不同的政策工具它上路的工具上路的時機點 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15727.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15742.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
我只是提醒部長這一次的換手裡面很多都是屬於密集勞工的相關的一些產業跟農業跟傳統製造業嘛對不對這次來的速度可能會更快150億真的會不夠用所以我要請部長是不是很快速度一週內吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15744.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15764.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
因為你看川普不用一週內他就變化萬千要變大家要一起跟著來應變不然會到時候連變都來不及變那我們就會我們會再盤點一下經費的可能好是請整個盤整勞工的衝擊的影響評估還有可能所需要的實際經費同時也能啟動勞工紓困貸款利息補貼的時機好不好OK好謝謝謝謝趙偉謝謝部長謝謝謝謝劉委員謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15773.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15775.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
廟仙翔委員質詢謝謝主秀 也要邀請我們的部長 洪部長部長好 您的就任就是在處理一些您就任前之前發生的一些爭端就是社會的一些爭議性的一些東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15803.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15822.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
那當然您一上任的時候那您就宣示我們直面爭議絕無袒護當初我們的宣示是這樣嗎是 是嘛應該沒有抹黑你還是誇大反正就是面對問題解決事情但是我今天看了我們的報告就交給委員會的報告那審計部有審計部的報告那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15827.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15847.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
這個勞動部有我們勞動部的報告啦但我感覺在我們報告的部分就有些逼中就輕了啦包括我們審計部的報告裡面很明確就有提到當初社會議題討論最大的那一層演唱會我們審計部在專報裡面有提出來它是使用不當的至少是使用不當 有沒有違法不知道 使用不當但是在我們勞動部的專報裡面我們在檢討這件事情的時候卻沒有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15853.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15865.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
這個這件事情我想確認一下這件事情是我們的同仁一開始就沒有寫上去嗎還是部長有要求這個演唱會不要寫到報告裡面不是這個關於那個音樂會基本上就是在那7000多萬裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15867.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15891.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
那你們寫的一些 從一開始到後來都在七千多萬裡面所以對 我知道我知道就是你們七千萬裡面有很多項目嘛其實全部這個成績簿給的也不止這些啦它很多項目嘛那我們都挑一些重點上來就是社會關心的項目嘛對不對那包括影片製作等等的你們都如實羅列了就大眾最關心的演唱會你們好像就不敢寫上去不是不敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15892.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15900.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
我們就沒什麼好不管這是大家都關心的事情今天整天早上大家都在討論這件事情所以這只是做一些摘要的列舉我們也沒有迴避 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15901.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15929.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
在這個音樂會上面辦理的事情這個音樂會辦理的檢討我們也做了所以這個只是好沒關係那這只是一個劣跡同仁本來就沒寫進來嘛部長沒有我沒有怪給同仁但是我的只是很簡單因為這些所有的項目就是以審計部給我們因為我們有時候在看一份報告的時候我們可能就從裡面我們願意成立的一個項目來看我們勞動部願意檢討到底有沒有真心願意來檢討我們可能就從裡面書面支票先來看一個部分嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15929.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15950.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
那另外我想跟部長確認一下就是可能我不知道你前面有沒有提到我之前有新聞有提到說就是這個報告出來了嘛這個審計部的報告出來了那我們部長是說會用公務預算去補嘛所以我想跟部長確認一下會不會你會不會有一毛錢是要跟許明春或者是謝怡龍來求償的 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15951.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15968.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
會不會有一毛錢我跟廖遠說明現在大家都很關心決策者的責任是那勞動部會配合檢調跟司法的結果來去做追究檢調他們可能就是刑事嘛這當然尊重但是我們內部的行政作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15969.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15982.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
既然我們的審計部已經要求我們追回了追回就有兩種方式嘛對不對一種就是部長講的嘛就是隔年度的公務預算去補回來另外一種追回的方式是跟失職的公職人員去求償這兩種方式應該沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15984.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
16010.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
跟六人說明保安部是一個行政單位我們如果要來跟個人追討的話也需要有法律上的依據這法律上的依據比方說有司法的判決或者比方說如果有判定是要剔除這些是法律上面的依據但我們就有責任要去追回但是我今天要跟任何一個人追回我都要有法律上面的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
16012.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
16025.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
目前的法律依據就是審計不有所以如果後續檢調的辦理行事歸行事嘛我們行政歸行政啊你求償是民事吧如果今天檢調判定是有不要侵佔 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
16026.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
16041.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
那我們該追回啊那使用不當嘛你認為這個使用不當是機關的責任還是決策者的責任嘛鳳姐這邊他不一定有刑事責任他不一定有刑事責任我認同啊跟廖遠說明我們現在就是必須依照我們現在就是依照審計的審計結果跟相關的規範來判來後續的執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
16048.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
16071.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
所以你們有兩步路可以走嘛兩個方向可以走嘛所以你們現在就是選擇走用公務預算來補你們目前沒有要對這個許明春以及謝以榮追償嗎追回目前沒有嘛待會你這樣講有點簡化現在檢調跟司法都在偵辦中我們會來配合檢調跟司法的偵辦如果在檢調司法的結果出來這個結果出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
16074.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
16085.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
該怎麼追我們就怎麼追部長如果說什麼東西都推給檢調的話那審計部也不用出報告了啦您的部長上任也不用宣誓了啦這不是推給司法我們要跟個人的追討是要有法律上面的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
16097.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
16115.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
審計部請你們追回你們就有法令依據就使用不當你有兩條路走你選擇用公務預算來補而不是向個人來求責教員審計部的報告很清楚他是寫修正簡列追回好啦部長修正簡列追回不要審計部的報告是修正簡列追回 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
16118.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
16131.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
周恩傑我們一上任講得很好聽啦好不好 我不希望我們常常就是上任的時候宣誓的講得很好聽啦結果啊 我們的有一句台語啦 一句閩南語啦 叫做講到一本機啦做不一趟棋啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
16134.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
16153.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
常常會有這樣的說法啦我希望就是我們說什麼當初給社會的期待是什麼以上那個給大家的期待是什麼我們後續就依據大家的期待來做我們從一開始就是說我們尊重審計的結果我們會依照審計的結果來去做相關的辦理這個立場從一開始從12月到現在都沒有改變好沒關係部長謝謝再給我一點時間我請我們的副審計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
16161.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
16186.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
副審計長 幾秒鐘的影片看一下這個去年時訓審計長的這個影片對 追回的對象我那時候很明確的就問審計長我們那時候應該就是確定會追回了我一直跟他追的是追回的對象我們會不會很明確的寫但是很遺憾我們這次審計報告沒有寫追回的對象是誰那剛剛依照我們的紅部長回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
16187.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
16195.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
目前他現在的這個手上他可能自己的判斷他在等這個檢調單位的這個調查嘛所以說我們目前的方向是由公務機關來這個編列預算來彌補這個追回的一個問題嘛那剛剛就我們這個沈議長講的要去釐清這個對象如果說我們的勞動部是用公務預算來補的話那你們願意替他背書嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
16215.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
16235.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
這個跟委員報告這個沒有背書的問題啦就是目前我們是修正就業安利基金的決算省計長說看責任在誰嘛對不對責任在誰那現在部長他認為應該是用公務預算來補救好了嗎那你們就認同他這樣的做法嗎我當初很明確的就是要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
16236.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
16251.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
許銘春跟這個謝以龍有沒有這個責任嘛責任會不會是在他們要不要跟他們追回當初那一場你應該也有在聽啦那沈記長很明確就是說看責任在誰看責任在誰就跟誰追回我的理解是這樣子吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16253.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16273.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
沒錯 至少現在勞動部不認為責任在謝宜榮跟許銘春嘛這個我不方便幫勞動部答覆 但是審計部能做的第一個司法部分我們移送檢調那這個要等他最終的司法規司法不討論 這個個人報告一定 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16277.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16293.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
司法他如果是因為這樣個人的行為除了觸犯刑法以外他還造成公帑損失這個我們要追究財務責任啊造成刑法跟造成公帑損失兩個不一定有這些關聯嘛一個是刑事責任 一個是刑政責任我們審計部 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16295.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16302.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
並沒有司法調查權所以我們沒辦法去釐清相關的對照關係沒關係 我客觀的講就是針對勞工部目前打算用這個公務預算來補這個要追回的錢我們審計部是沒有意見的沒有 這個是要尊重他們行政機關就尊重沒有意見嘛沒有 不是沒意見這個預算的籌編是行政院的責任是部會責任 不是審計部啦審計部是監督預算執行那我們能做的不是你的責任就沒意見嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16325.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16345.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
不是 不是 我們有我們自己的獨立的審計立場我們發現 包括剛剛廖委員很關心可能有特定的首長他要負責任這個部分我們都移送到監察院這個監察院他會有好 沒關係 以上我只是想藉由今天的質詢來瞭解一下各個機關立場而已 好不好謝謝 謝謝 謝謝部長謝謝廖委員 謝謝副審計長來 繼續我們請楊瓊英委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16362.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16365.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
謝謝主席 陽勛發言 邀請洪部長根據審計部日前報告指出 針對我們就業案基金有高達7224萬元的支出它的用途跟法定的促進就業穩定勞工生活的宗旨明顯有不符 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16391.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16411.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
該巨額款項的用途不僅暴露出整個基金管理機制嚴重疏失也更引發了社會大眾對於勞工權益基金是否遭到不當的挪用決策過程是否透明化等這些產生的疑慮進而衝擊到勞工對政府的信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16412.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16438.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
其實這個安電基金老闆有出錢之後他的目的就是希望能夠將勞工的權益那麼能夠保障而且能夠穩定我們的勞動力那所以在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教目前我們聽聞以及媒體報章上面據文室部長您說要編列公務預算進行規定 是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16440.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16460.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
跟姚委員說明現在審計部的審計的結果是修正檢列並要追回那編列公務預算規定是過去如果被判定為修正檢列的時候的做法之一當然具體的做法我們也願意再跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16461.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16483.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
行政院跟審計部來做討論所以換句話說外面高度質疑的以公務預算明年度的預算來規定這個還沒有定案是不是我可以這麼解讀嗎我們可以來跟我們我是願意來跟我們願意跟行政院來討論但是勞動部我們是一個行政部門我們必須依照審計部的審計的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16484.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16510.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
跟相關的規範來做後續的辦理你現在外界都認為你是要編列明年度的預算來規定這目前啦那你現在的說法這個是過去類似情境的做法之一那你現在的說法就是說你還希望能夠跟審計單位我們願意來跟行政院主席來做相關的討論這一筆錢到底要怎麼處理你現在最新的想法跟預計要怎麼做是不是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16511.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16532.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
我們我們願意來跟大家討論但是都說編列公務預算規定是過去在遇到類似的相關的問題這個案子到目前為止你並不是一定要如此做而是還要經過討論本席可以這麼解讀嗎我們可以來討論怎麼樣子做法能夠比較符合審計現在的這個樣子這樣子的結果但是這是做法之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16532.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16559.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
是之一所以我要給社會大眾了解我們也不希望社會大眾有很多疑慮也就是希望說大家好好做怎麼依法來做既然碰到了問題我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題所以到目前為止在之前所說的本席再一次請教也就是說要用明列的公務預算來規定還沒有定案是不是可以如此的說呢這是做法之一 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16560.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16578.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
所以不一定這麼做但我們會要來跟其實相關的單位來討論因為你現在是部長所以我們要了解目前的進度也就是還沒有決定哪一種方式是不是如此我們之前有說我們會來想要來爭取但是有說這是做法之一所以還沒有決定哪一種方式因為這個也要勞動部還沒有呈現出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16580.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16598.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
我們之前有說我們想要爭取公務預算的規定因為這是過去遇到修正檢列並追回的時候的做法之一我們現在是要讓社會大眾了解我們政府預定要怎麼做所以現在您所提的這個是預定之一所以還沒有真正到最後決定要怎麼做是不是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16599.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16626.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
我們會來討論 會來討論所以還沒有決定嗎是不是還沒有定案我們可以這麼說這是我們做法預定的做法之一預定的做法之一所以你還有之二之三是不是如此因為你現在是行政部門所以還要跟相關單位來討論所以我們可以給社會大眾說之前您說的要編列明年度的預算公務預算來規定還不一定是這個方式還在討論中 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16628.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16657.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
對 我們可以跟相關單位再討論你這個對 我們會繼續來討論因為剛剛審計單位 組計單位都有說明那麼您之前也說如果這個有狀況當然要配合整個司法的調查但是我們也了解到整個行政責任的釐清跟追究它畢竟會蠻長的一段時間曠日廢時有很長的一個司法程序所以我還是建議也就是我們自己內部 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16658.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16674.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
因為包括了之前發生的這個狀況審計單位也提出那可是未來在執行的這個當中我們要怎麼樣去執行那我們的內部是不是應該要去討論我們要怎麼做讓大家有所依歸請做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16675.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16688.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
姚苑你講的跟我們做的是完全一樣的我們就是做了徹底的內部檢討這個徹底的內部檢討下我們其實已經把過去很多我們可能認為管理過於寬鬆 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16690.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16710.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
或者是我們在制度面機制面有問題的部分其實在今年初一月的時候就已經提出了改進跟改革的方案現在已經在執行中包括救安基金的管理的做法包括對開口企業的做法包括對宣傳品流向訂定相關的規範管理規範這些事情都已經完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16710.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16732.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
好把你們精進的方案請順便資料一份給本席沒有問題那麼也就針對這個案子你們主動調查這個內部的行政調查嗎我們做了內部的徹底的檢討徹底的檢討那針對於確實有責任歸屬的部分呢有做處分或做整理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16733.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16759.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
關於責任歸屬當然有些部分如果責任歸屬的部分現在監察院在調查那我們完全的配合監察院完全的配合這是應當但是剛剛我們說的行政院我們所屬的勞動部是我們整個勞工非常重視的一個部門所以內部的行政調查本席認為您也應當要有內部的行政調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16760.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16770.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
權責歸屬應該要去理解我們其實做了徹底的內部的檢討檢討不代表你有做權責的歸屬啊關於權責的歸屬行政的歸屬的部分政務人員的行政的部分現在是由監察院跟檢調單位都在調查中 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16779.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16800.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
這個就是本席剛才所說的因為司法的部分呢跨日會還要蠻長的時間我們也希望你內部可以去檢討的應該你可以去檢討我相信你有這個能力必須要徹底去檢討到底責任的歸屬啊也符合你未來在運用整個司法才有所依歸啊你要超前的去做嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16801.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16818.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
你認同嗎是把你的責任歸屬給本席最後一個議題我功課給你因為全球暖化的問題我們看到這個夏季氣溫持續的在拉高那整個我們勞工的一個工作權的一個健康保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16819.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16838.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
那避免高氣溫的環境引發的熱疾病因為本席看到我們雖然有訂定危害的預防規定但是審計部給你查了2021年到2022年勞動部檢查的這個部分在戶外的失業單位違反的超過三成 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16839.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16868.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
分別是33.7度跟32.8度在這樣的情況之下你們又去檢查有193場次違規的是141場次它的違規是73%部長違規是73%所以在這樣的情況之下數字審計部已經告訴你了你要怎麼樣去調整你的熱危害的預防措施來保障整個勞工工作的安全跟健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16870.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16888.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
市委員其實為了熱危害大家都面臨同樣的問題那我們其實我們去年已經修了我們設施規則針對現場的戶外作業有立即危險沒有提供飲水沒有提供遮陽降溫措施我們就可以立即罰了所以因為你的立即罰結果審計單位告訴你是73%的你們去檢查190幾家你是141家是73%不符合部長你同意這樣子73%不符合嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16898.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16911.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
包委員過去是通知改善不改善才處罰那營燒工地改善是比較能夠快速進行的那因為我們去年訂了這樣子比較嚴格的機制那事業單位就開始做一些改善我們有信心進來做專案檢查讓這樣子熱危害違反的量態能夠降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16914.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16936.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
好部長您聽到這個說明但是給你的答案是審計單位說你們自己去檢查73%是不符合的所以針對這個議題因為生命誠可貴我們要好好照顧我們的勞工不管是這個工地方面怎麼去改善還是你們的督導我希望能夠以保障我們勞工的安全為基準 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16937.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16961.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
跟楊蘭說我其實非常關注這個問題那確實我們現在看到有一些戶外工作的業主其實對這個熱危害的觀念還不夠了解所以這裡面包括規範包括要讓大家產業界更了解這件事情我們會盡力來做這部分我們也不希望說一直罰一直罰你罰了也沒用你要讓大家有這個概念來保護我們的勞工嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16962.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16980.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
罰當然是一個法規執行落實的手段但是我們不是說一定非得要靠罰可是重點是讓這些相關的規範能夠被落實罰是做法之一所以結果論是不滿意的73%的檢查是不合格的我們就有精進的方向好不好 謝謝謝謝楊委員 謝謝部長圖前級委員改稱書面執行接續請楊耀委員執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
17000.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
17002.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
謝謝主席 主席請下 洪普澤 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
17010.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
17035.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
部長好 部長上個禮拜勞動部有發布新聞稿說就審計部查核了109年到113年度就業安定基金經費支出者情形的審核結果對不對 是那其中有認為就業安定基金辦理勞動節形象影片製作 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
17037.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
17056.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
臉書粉絲團經營、僑簽活動、春節紅包袋、三節禮品等各項支出和就業安定基金支出的用途相關聯性不高應該要屬於公務預算支出的範疇,應該要收回 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
17058.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
17067.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
那部長對於這樣子的一個報告大概有對外說明了說勞動部預計要分幾年來歸電對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
17076.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
17100.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
因為審計的報告最後的結果審查結果裡面是判定這個是修正檢列要追回那從過去大概修正如果判定修正檢列也就是說他不該使用救安基金那應該這個因為這些業務是在業務上面有執行他的需要所以應該回到公務預算來去處理那所以過去用公務預算編列公務預算來歸電是 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
17102.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
17126.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
如果被判定修正檢列的方法做法之一對以前有過有過例子嗎有規定因為我我我編列公務商規定這是過去會有的做法你這邊有有有什麼有什麼例子嗎因為因為規定我覺得怪波普呢是事先 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
17128.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
17138.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
從公務預算把錢到給基金這個是事事先那基金已經先不合目的使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
17139.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
17159.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
再編列預算那你預算科目要變在哪裡其實某部分就是說這意思是說這個支出是在業務上面支出只是他不應該用救安基金也就是他應該用公務預算所以等於有點像是公務預算的範疇要編回還給救安基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
17160.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
17179.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
它是一個還的概念我知道因為就歸店的字面上意思來看也知道是還我現在只是說在預算法上的依據是什麼我不是很清楚你們勞動部有誰可以回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
17180.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
17197.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
然後你們可能會要怎麼要編列在什麼預算科目這個算是新增的預算跟姚委員說明第一個是我們確實勞務部行政部門我們還是必須依照審計的結果來去做辦理跟相關的規範來去辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
17199.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
17228.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
那但是這個編列供預算規定是我們認為可以做的做法之一但我們知道現在外界會覺得好像這是不是會是用全民的稅金等等的這個看法但詳細具體的做法我們會再跟行政院跟審計來討論我現在還沒有討論到是不是會用全民的稅金我現在是在講一個預算上的東西就是說規定它本身是預算法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
17230.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
17250.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
規定的報告委員因為根據我們這次我們部裡面就業安定基金這個5年的這個支出因為審計部審核的結果是修正減劣收回所以依照這樣子的一個審定的結果我們的做法就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
17252.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
17271.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
就是代表說這個基金的用途可能審計的看法是覺得這個關聯性不高那是相對來講的話我們基金要收回來的話那就是過去的做法是有這樣子的例子就是說可能還是要從公務預算來撥補這是另外增編這個預算來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
17273.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
17290.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
這是一個過去可能可以處理的方向那我這邊有提供一個例子是過去曾經我們的就業安定基金在民國90幾年的時候有內政部某一個計畫那那個計畫是就是屬於這個當時是 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
17295.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
17321.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
請向我們救安基金來申請補助這個失能老人跟身心障礙補助使用居家服務的計畫那我們當年度這個計畫有來申請我們救安基金的補助但是這個經過審計部的審核結果也是認為說應該要修正簡列所以後來這一筆一億多的這個申請補助就 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
17323.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
17335.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
在當年度就被修正了那後來內政部在後面的年度他有編了這筆預算來還給我們救安基金這是過去有的例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
17338.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
17363.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
我剛剛跟委員報告你們是配合內政部的活動嗎不是我剛剛有跟委員報告這個案例是內政部來申請救安基金的補助的案例那也曾經發生過審計部審核的結果是認為說可能跟基金的用途關聯性不高所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
17365.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
17384.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
當年的審計的審定的結果是要修正跟我們的這個案子是相同的錢必須要還給救安基金這個是沒有問題的只是說在預算上所以有過前例是這樣子就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
17388.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17413.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
那我再問就是說就業安定基金的使用項目上面現在就是有幾個項目是被認定跟基金支出用途關聯性不高其中呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
17415.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
17444.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
其中有紅包袋有紅包袋春聯紙圖頭那就我所知春聯就是只寫只寫了部長的名字紅包袋也只寫了部長的名字這個我的認定就不是關聯性不高而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
17445.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
17471.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
這個是沒有關聯性部長你聽懂我的意思嗎我可以理解楊委員的意思那當然關聯性不高這是審計部可以判定但是我就說這些相關的做法如果是我的話我不會這樣做我知道我知道我知道所以我並不是想並沒有要為難你的意思我現在的意思是說像這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
17473.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
17484.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
你們有沒有可能檢討看看有沒有不當得力的問題如果有不當得力或者是違法營私的話目前檢調正在辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
17486.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
17512.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
可是不當得利是公法上的民事關係對但是我說這部分你們並不一定你們並不一定要這個跟刑事案件是兩回事懂我的意思嗎跟我的說明剛剛像講這些我們這些包括春聯啊等等等目前我們已經很清楚明定救安基金未來就是不能夠做這些事情了不是我是說過去的這一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
17514.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
17540.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
你們會不會考慮做不當得力 民事上因為部長剛剛有講嘛形勢上的問題已經是檢調在做處理這個我們不置評現在是說看起來紅包袋只寫部長的名字沒有任何跟勞工就業 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
17541.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
17565.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
勞工權益勞工福祉有關的東西這個我的認定這個是有不當得理的我想跟姚元說明這些紅包袋或者是春聯它其實比較它也是發給勞工朋友的不是它是發給勞工朋友但是它的用途可能是比方說會辦一些活動的時候它發這些紅包袋 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
17566.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
17585.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
他作為比較能夠去吸引這些勞工朋友來參與相關的活動當時他去設計這些紅包袋的用意是這樣也就是說可能我們辦了一些活動那你發送這些相關的文宣品比較能夠去吸引勞工朋友願意再來多參與當時他的用意是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
17587.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
17614.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
部長我這樣子講,就是說我其實是想要問一下你們的態度因為我向來不是很喜歡去追究離職的人也不想要為難不是造成結果的現任者的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
17616.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17634 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
只是說我自己的認定我並不覺得說辦活動然後的文宣品上面辦活動本身政府部長的講法是跟勞工福祉有關文宣品上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17635.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17655.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
全部就都沒有這個是是可以的啦這是我我個人的看法我意思喔我知道我知道蔣委員的意思對啦那我最後還是還是還是要講啊就這個就是哎從許民村部長在任的時候我一直在講我上我我 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17655.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17681.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
我在審基金預算的時候也講過啦我覺得就業安定基金的收支保管和運用辦法裡面第五條裡面講的辦理提升勞工福祉四項我覺得這個規定這麼籠統的規定假如你們不想辦法把它具體化 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17683.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17694.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
我相信紅十三部長在任的時候不會有問題啦不過法規不夠明確就是會因人 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17697.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17725.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
因為誰當部長而有變化啦我跟姚委員說明現在關於救安基金的收支管理用辦法我們正在修訂中我們現在把那第12款拿掉以外其他款我們也希望能夠讓他的這個更加的明確目前其實也在修訂中更加明確然後當然我們我們也不要也不會希望說勞動部因為這個事件所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17728.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17750.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
就安定基金的時候保障勞工權益的時候綁手綁腳啦我們也不希望這樣子啦就是該應該要用就用可是一定要用在勞工的所以這也是為什麼我覺得應該把規範給規範清楚在這個線內就是大家可以安心的使用而不會用的心驚膽顫這也是我們希望把規範規範得更清楚的原因好謝謝部長謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17751.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17757.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
好 謝謝央委員 謝謝部長接續我們請林淑芬委員質詢好 謝謝是不是部長你再喝一口水慢慢來喝好了再上 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17781.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17781.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
部長今天大家談了很多但是我因為時間的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17794.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17818.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
所以其實我不太想要再談就是說因為你們所屬基金違規使用的這個問題不過裡面有一個審計單位講了一句話我覺得我還是忍不住就問一下但你也不一定要馬上回答就是說他們採購的禮品分送的對象不明分送的對象不明沒有照冊也不曉得拿去送給誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17820.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17837.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
這個事情就不是違規使用而已這個問題可大可小好那我就不問你這個了我是要問你有比這個更令我擔心的啦因為這個這個問題是大家違規使用大家都已經講很久那也 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17839.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17854.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
政治上也報導很多但我要講一個是跟人民比較相關當然就是最關注的就是川普政府他舉著這個保護主義然後的大旗然後一個美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17856.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17879.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
再度偉大的這樣的一個大旗高舉所以國族主義興起那在2000年我們要加入WTO的時候當時對WTO的遊戲規則我們至少我個人當時就大家在討論就覺得只有一招可以對付WTO的這個遊戲規則因為WTO的遊戲規則裡面對勞工對農業對環保是最不利的 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17886.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17898.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
最弱勢的那當時在二三十年前我們就預見了說唯有國族主義可以對抗WTO的這個遊戲規則當然國族主義牽涉的層面很多比如說都開放都進口都零關稅但我們全部都不用不買這是一種方法但沒想到21世紀的2025年國族主義是 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17915.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17929.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
乾脆把WTO的整個遊戲規則和架構都給它瓦解掉所以今天我們不是看到加關稅32%不只是看到這個憂慮其實我前幾天蠻焦慮的因為這個被瓦解是一個WTO的這個架構那貿易的遊戲規則 瞬間大家都可以呼呼的頂來 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17941.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17965.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
你對我關稅壁壘 我也對你關稅壁壘所有的一切 從多邊主義變成一對一 單邊然後都要重來 重談你對我 美國可以這樣對人家中國也可以這樣對人家市場大的 大國都可以這樣對任何每一個好欺負的那這樣子 這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17967.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17991.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
台灣會倒我們是以出口為導向的我們的經貿沒有出口賺不了錢我們會倒我們不但沒有市場我們也沒有資源沒有能源所以在這裡我其實更擔憂的是說不是舊股市而已股市股災人家說股災的受限就那些人雖然全台灣股民已經一千多萬了 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17992.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
18017.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
一千多萬幾乎家家戶戶都有玩股票了這當然很嚴重可是經濟產業就業這個是更嚴重的那我其實很擔心你們很擔心你們的原因是說我們真的很想要知道說你政府到底有沒有掌握到掌握到雖然我們沒有辦法去預判到未來的遊戲世界貿易 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
18020.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
18030.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
的遊戲規則會怎麼演變也不敢去也不用這麼急著要去去擔憂不用杞人憂天但是至少跟美國的經貿這一次的32%的加稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
18035.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
18062.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
如果沒有轉圜如果從今天就要生效那對我們國內的產業的衝擊會是集中在哪幾個產業別你才能夠告訴我說受衝擊的勞工會有多少而衝擊的對象他們需要什麼樣的政策來銜接來給他們保護起來這個保護網是足夠於網住他們讓他們衝擊不要太大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
18065.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
18089.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
部長你們有沒有討論過不只討論其實也做了評估那目前確實看起來針對這32%的關稅美方提出來32%未來在談判過程裡面會不會調整這個還要看談判的狀況可是如果就這32%來看的話大家其實最擔心的事情是關於這些傳產的出口產出口製造業傳產一句話不要這樣一語帶過要更精準的了解到包括機械 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
18091.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
18107.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
包括汽車零組件包括像是一些金屬製品的水五金包括扣件業 螺絲螺蟒你確定嗎我把你的朋友叫盧祁鴻他寫了一篇他的資料給你看來台灣對美國出口七成集中在十項類別看清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
18117.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
18125.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
對還有包括剛才說包括電線電纜我還沒講包括電線電纜然後這個是產品而已這個是產品來我講他的資料來台灣的這個出口裡面前十類是這種第一類是自動資料處理機器還有磁光 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
18146.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
18173.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
讀取器第二名統計上第二名是特定設備的零件與配件HS8473再來是電子集體電路及零件這個不討論因為這個是ITA對這個還沒有公佈是我不見得我不認為他會是豁免他只能說還沒有公佈再來是電話機加智慧型手機再來是光碟磁帶固定儲存設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
18175.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
18202.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
然後未分類的產品螺絲、螺栓、螺母、卯丁接下來是拖拉機運輸車輛零件和配件再來是變壓器、轉換器還有電感器零件最後才是運動器材和設備好這個是產品可是這一些HS開頭的編號這些產品對照到產業別是真的如你所說的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
18204.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
18216.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
機械產業還有什麼是嗎OK來他們對照道產業別應該是電子零組件製造業那這個電腦電子產品及光學製品製造業電力設備及配備製造業機械設備製造等好來那這幾個產業我剛剛講這幾個產業嘛這是你的好朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
18233.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
18238.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
他自己去找資料 拔書出來的我在官方部門 我至少 你有看過這樣的統計嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
18241.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
18267.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
我有看過 該部門有相關的統計我們從勞動部的角度我們會特別關心的事情是因為包括我們還會關心說他是不是中小企業的比例特別高因為如果中小企業的比例特別高他遇到衝擊的時候他可能承受衝擊的能力會再比大的企業再來的更差這是我們從勞動部的角度來說那你的好朋友關注的角度 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
18269.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
18273.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
他是從總體來講因為我在官方沒有看到這個統計然後他看到台灣過去2023年全台灣的GDP比2000年因為2000年台灣剛要加入WTO |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
18287.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
18292.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
我們增加了12.91兆元就是這23年來台灣的GDP增加了12.91兆那其中32%是由剛剛對應的這四項產業所貢獻 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
18307.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
18335.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
所以過去二十幾年來的貿易自由化的這個極盛的時期台灣經濟成長主要的三成以上都來自這四項產業就是我剛剛念過電子零組件製造電腦電子產品和光學製品電力設備及配備製造業機械設備製造業這很關鍵喔三成以上台灣GDP成長的貢獻來自於這四大產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
18337.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
18347.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
而且現在就講到重點 受雇人數你們有沒有評估到 你說關注的是中小企業那有沒有評估到衝擊人數會有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
18348.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
18376.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
我們其實有把這些相關的產業他的受僱的人數大概做了一些掌握重擊大概有多少但是我沒有辦法說那個產業裡面所有的勞工數字就是一定會受衝因為這裡面也包括你講得太好了因為也包括有一些產業他並不是他所有的訂單都是只有對美國你講得太正確了但是我還是要告訴你你的好朋友說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
18378.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
18394.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
這個受僱人數啊這一些產業它的產業特色是資本和技術密集度高一般GDP的成長全台灣成長了這麼高但是呢我們的受僱人數整體這20幾年來沒有什麼成長但是呢這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
18403.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
18409.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
成長的大部分GDP成長然後大部分都是在工業及服務業的人數成長了16%但2000年的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
18415.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
18432.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
2000年的話這些產業的僱用人數就是四大類整體是服務業在成長這20幾年來可是偏偏這四大項的產業的受僱人數它從84.8萬上升到2023年是124萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
18440.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
18461.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
所以說這20幾年來這四項產業多僱用了40萬人在工業人數逐漸的佔比在下降可是這四大產業人數多了40萬的從業人口所以它還逆勢的佔整體工業及服務業受僱人數比重從14% |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
18464.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
18477.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
上升到15%所以我們現在看得到的就是說這幾項產業出口到美國的前幾大商品它對應的產業別它的受僱人數是大幅成長的 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
18480.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
18489.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
如果他受到衝擊 那衝擊很大可是他到底有沒有受到衝擊所以你的好朋友 他講了幾個觀點嘛就是說我們32%的關稅你放進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
18495.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
18510.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
我們會不會受到大衝擊要考量幾個一個美國自己有我們的產品是不是無可替代啦是第二個消費者的價格彈性低再貴都會買如果是無可替代的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
18512.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
18534.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
你就要給我買啊 你不給我買就不會贏的啊就是這個關稅是由誰來承擔啦 對啦再來就是說 我們一樣賣東西到美國主要的競爭者他的關稅如果比我們高那也沒關係啊我們的主要競爭者如果是越南越南幾% |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
18535.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
18551.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
越南之前是46那如果我們主要競爭者是越南他們關稅課比我們高我們會取代他們嘛搞不好因為這樣子我們還獲利呢所以就要來檢驗了那檢驗的狀況是這樣子台灣的生產成本其實如果美國貿易部門公佈的有幾個比32%以上的我們就叫它高關稅國 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
18562.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
18580.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
那如果是10%到32%的叫中低關稅股好了那加拿大墨西哥就不在加徵範圍內就不討論喔那台灣的產品喔你看一下我們的主要競爭者這幾類裡面喔你來看一下喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
18585.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
18592.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
前四項 前四項 前四名啊 前四名就是HS8471、8473、8517還有8523 抱歉我念錯了 8542和8517 8523沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
18602.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
18622.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
他們輸出到美國 在美國的市佔率是46%他的市佔率僅次於高關稅國跟高關稅我們比高關稅的其他國家還要少一點 他們加起來但我們跟所有的高關稅國加起來市佔率是73%所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
18626.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
18642.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
高關稅國加我們加起來在美國的市佔率是73%那如果出口到美國前十大類的商品來看就是這張圖表來看這個高關稅國的市佔率很高那我們是高關稅國裡面32%是最低的有可能我們還要替代掉他們因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
18652.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
18662.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
我們可能比他們關稅還低那我們就有市場價格的競爭性這樣子然後再來就是說他這裡講到 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
18664.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
18689.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
八四七三 八五二三 七三一八 八七零八 八五零四就是特定設備的零件和配件 八五二三的光碟磁帶固態儲存設備螺絲 螺栓 螺紋 錨釘 拖拉機 運輸車輛零件和配件 偏壓器 轉換器和感電的零件等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
18690.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
18703.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
OK 這個高關稅國的市佔率不高可是我們都知道高關稅國他現在所公佈的那幾個國家包括越南 泰國 中國 印尼他們理論上價格的競爭優勢很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
18707.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
18725.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
他們的製造成本很低理論上他們的市佔率應該在美國很高可是並沒有所以他們 你的好朋友說消費者或許重視品質更勝於價格但是呢 其實這個8523 7318 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
18731.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
18733.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
8708 8523 8708 8504他又覺得說這個被替代的可能性也是蠻高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
18742.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
18765.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
所以在這種狀況裡就是說美國自己國內有然後要我們雖然不是無可取代但是他們要自己製造這個太難了但是就是說有一種是我們價格比較高但是因為品質比較好所以人家消費者需求的是品質而不是價格而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
18766.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
18783.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
但是呢我們真的是擔心就是說短期裡面我們或許看不到說馬上我們就有來自美國自己本土製造或是其他中低關稅國就把我們的產業產品都替代掉但是呢我們比較擔心的就是說你從這裡來看出口產業在面臨貿易自由化如果WTO架構瓦解的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
18798.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
18805.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
這個未來都有可能那在這種狀況裡面我們真的是產業的寒冬可能會來臨產業的寒冬會來臨 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
18810.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
18831.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
光是短暫的評估美國的這個衝擊我們還看不出到底是所有的產業都會受到衝擊或者是只是部分那這個勞工怎麼辦那我們就想到說那你端出來的政策夠不夠你的就業安定安定就業的四大措施夠不夠在這裡面我就想要跟你討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
18834.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
18861.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
之前我們一直關心的就是無薪假津貼無薪假津貼那因為上一屆我被人家踢出去未還委員會我從2016年就關心無薪假津貼那到持續關係到我被迫我不准參加未還委員會來然後終於看到2023年我們的無薪假津貼你們已經修正了就是就業保險促進就業的實施辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
18862.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
18887.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
你們說只要勞僱雙方 有人開始協商要減少工時就是好聽 我講說你們講的很好聽叫減班休息 其實就無薪假那經評估有必要時 勞動部得召開雇用安定措施的諮詢會議然後去辦理雇用安定措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
18888.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
18914.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
好那我的意思我的問題跟跟跟我的說明其實減班休息雖然外界會認為是無薪假但他並不是真的無薪台灣的減班休息是要付基本工資的我知道很多的國家他的無薪假是不用付不用付基本工資但台灣的所以講無薪假有的時候會讓人家真的以為他是真的無薪但並不是真的無薪 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
18914.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
18931.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
好你們要用減班休息也可以但是也有人真的是說你不希望你不是要無薪的話他可能給的沒有給到全薪喔這個是執行面的問題是他會不給全薪但至少他要給不給全部的基本工資喔也有喔但是大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
18931.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
18936.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
大家不好說 這個就不要講了當然你要講說他不符合而且違法可是勞工沒有談判的籌碼有時候他就是要多這個錢好 那我現在不爭執這個名詞我現在要問的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
18948.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
18964.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
到底你們什麼時候會我們重點是當你們不早一點啟動這個機制然後當衝擊來的因為今天4月9號要開始嘛然後你們的安定措施諮詢會議你認為你什麼時候可能會召開 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
18966.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
18980.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
跟委員報告我們過去其實會有一些關於安定就業相關的政策的工具我們在把這些政策工具現在也在做一些經驗的彙整可是我們目前是要來去規劃出一個因應目前關稅的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
18981.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
19009.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
這個因應過去關稅的版本的意思是說比方說我們過去可能把這些相關的工具它是用在疫情的期間可是疫情裡面其實它很多是服務業可是這一次很多是出口的製造業它還是會有情境上面的不同所以我們希望能夠把這些相關的工具它可能啟動的條件或者是適用的範圍包括是支持力度如果需要加碼的話都有一個相對在這一次關稅的量身訂做的做法那這也不是只有針對剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
19010.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
19036.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
林委員說的這個公安訂的措施其實我們相對應的好幾個就業工具現在都在做這些情境跟條件的重新的盤整我再提醒你一下你的就業保險促進就業的實施辦法裡面不是限於服務業喔不是限於服務業喔你剛剛講的好像說在疫情期間才這麼寬鬆不是這個是一體試用而且就是工業服務業通通一體試用製造業都一體試用而且我再提醒你一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
19037.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
19049.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
第一個要件叫受景氣因素影響導致停工或減產那這個美國關稅的這個衝擊夠不夠成這個第一個要件的第一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
19050.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
19053.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
如果造成衝擊我認為當然是符合的所以這裡也包括我們在跟經濟部針對這個問題在做討論因為我們的就業保險促進就業實施辦法裡面第一句話就是要受景氣因素這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
19068.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
19088.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
你認為是 OK那很好再來就是說中小企業的平均壽命中小企業13年那傳產的或中小企業的傳產裡面很多勞工從業人員我們都知道整體的勞工大概有八成都是在中小企業就業 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
19089.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
19114.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
所有企業提供了八成的勞工的就業機會全產裡面從業人員也都是資深人員居多當年輕做到資深都是中高齡而這一波如果受衝擊的就是中高齡中高齡的人真的如果放了無薪假然後再重新出發有那麼容易重新就業嗎大家都知道是問號 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
19115.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
19120.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
沒那麼容易所以你現在的安心就業你們的四大措施裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
19122.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
19129.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
維持雇用安定薪資差額補貼減班休息可是你諮詢會議都還沒開充電再出發然後叫他們去參訓那他們要參訓什麼產業他們能夠參訓什麼產業鼓勵企業辦訓在職訓練中小企業都沒有在職訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
19147.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
19156.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
辦訓的能力協助微型創業利息補貼中高齡失業也不太有這個能力自行去創業 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
19158.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
19175.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
所以你這個對製造業的中高齡勞工而言可能距離很遙遠所以我們其實希望要特別針對現在的情境去做這些你針對現在的情境就是第一個製造業 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
19176.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
19180.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
不是服務業嘛優先稱職業是製造業再來就是中小型的製造業中小型的製造業然後呢中高齡然後你說辦訓中小企業辦訓這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
19194.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
19208.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
我們也可以辦訓所以我們也在調整我們的辦訓因為也有一些工會來跟我們說他們也希望說如果要有一些把他們轉換到其他的產業的時候他們希望我很樂意聽到你說你們也願意辦訓或是委託其他職業工會來辦訓因為你端出來的時候是講鼓勵企業辦訓我是跟你講這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
19220.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
19228.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
我們也在這個裡面 包括我們自己在多辦訊 而且辦訊的方向也希望能夠去符合接下來新的產業的需求你講對了 可是新的產業這些中高齡有辦法馬上上手嗎而且中高齡成功轉換行業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
19238.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
19263.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
這個統計你們有看得出來留任率高嗎其實我們看到相對於年輕族群中高齡尋找新工作的過程都是很辛苦和漫長的啦光是要找到願意聘僱自己的僱主都很難的所以最終他們都是面臨到淪為流動性最高低薪低技術的派遣勞工或者是提早退休或者是失業經常是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
19265.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
19282.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
所以你端出來的牛肉要能夠網得住他們銜接可以接得住他們那要很務實啊跟林委員說明我們其實現在當然因為台灣的人口結構包括勞動結構確實一定會往中高齡去所以我們對於中高齡的協助包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
19283.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
19305.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
有一些相對應的措施不管是訓練也好甚至職務在設計也好需要更細緻的來協助他們你在這裡講這幾句話都很容易啊但是你設計出來很具體的很務實的是什麼那就不容易了那光是你第一點你四大安定措施裡面第一點就是所謂的無薪假津貼我們不講無薪假叫簡班休息津貼我就問你的你們的諮詢會議沒有辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
19311.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
19324.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
你就沒有辦法馬上立即及時第一個第二個第二個其實你不用怕太早辦理因為太早辦理你們的實施辦法裡面還有一條狀況OK的情境景氣變好了隨時可以中斷沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
19326.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
19337.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
所以不要怕太早啟動你們的諮詢會議所以我再問你一次你覺得可以儘早來啟動這個諮詢會議你們評估這個衝擊有沒有可能什麼時候會開始這個諮詢會議如果你們諮詢會議啟動了我們才有辦法去申請津貼啊我們應該可以在下週就來啟動這個諮詢會議好 謝謝謝謝林委員 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
19358.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
19386.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
王宏威 王宏威 王宏威委員不在張祺凱 張祺凱 張祺凱委員不在黃國昌 黃國昌 黃國昌委員不在鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在葉元之 葉元之 葉元之委員不在蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜委員不在鄭振全 鄭振全 鄭振全委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
19388.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
19400.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳我人不在本日會議審打全部結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
19405.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
19433.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
委員 涂謙吉 邱若驊 許欣盈所提書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報現在作以下決定第一 報告及刑法完畢第二 委員執行未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期所定本日會議到此結束 現在散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
19446.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
19447.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
歡迎光臨 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
19459.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
19459.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
對呀,對呀 |