| IVOD_ID |
165677 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165677 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
16 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-20T10:37:31+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-20T10:55:19+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:48 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/972124280c86b9131c395aab9e8be43b50d730950bdd7c8a43079a982cb9ebe0d542c67c48412d045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王定宇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:37:31 - 10:55:19 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-20T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍、農業部次長、衛生福利部次長報告「整合國家優勢輸出推動國際合作發展策略與進展」，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席 麻煩部長有請林部長 |
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15.944 |
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40.09 |
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在我開始今天題目之前我要提一件事情中國對台灣的國軍支通電軍軍情局 征戰局 新戰大隊以及我們的國會議員盧瀋伯洋用他們政治的理由用他們中國的法令進行跨境鎮壓 藏弊管轄昨天我們委員會本席提案那委員會通過了一個提案譴責 |
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59.33 |
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中國這一種蠻橫的野蠻的行為那也聲援這一些被中國無理打壓的人那就中國做這個事情我們外交部對國際的發聲以及像我們昨天外交國防委員會通過這個決議外交部有什麼態度 |
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61.682 |
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我們外交部當然就因為中共是沒有管轄權而且他現在講的所謂透過這個國際刑警組織啊或所謂這些其實大家一定都了解有些事是他不是他一廂情願可以做的 |
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| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
可是作為外交部我們一定要了解就是說所有涉及到的國際條約或是跟中國簽的這些包括發表的聲明還有他過去有沒有這樣的案例以及我們去交涉的時候因為這裡面涉及到 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
93.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
119.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
有一些國家可能不是這麼法治民主那種情形之下怎麼處理所以我們外管也啟動跟當地國家的交涉希望預防這個是我待會要問的我現在指的是說我們這事情政府有個態度嘛那個基本態度是中國管對台灣沒有死法管轄權你這種政治動作連interpol的審查都不會過那我們應該向國際發聲表達我們外交部不容許任何一個個人喔不管這個個人是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
121.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
143.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
都不能用這種政治的理由來進行長臂管轄跨境鎮壓這是我們外交部的太空管的中共連外太空他也都要管的管到地心他也要管的他的境外管轄無所不在嘛這個說實在真的是讓世界有時候覺得說看笑話啦我是不好這樣講但是委員講的我也覺得很有道理所以昨天我們當然我是比較遺憾 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
145.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
161.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
國會應該是一個保護民主的地方那面對我們的國人不管是國軍或者是國會議員面對這種無理蠻橫的打壓照理說國會應該要通過譴責案應該要聲援那我們的國會現狀沒有通過那還好我們外交國防委員會有通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
162.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
187.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我希望外交部可以把這個我們通過的決議善加運用不管是對國際發聲或者讓我們的國際友盟知道我們國會還是有態度的至少在委員會有態度那另外剛才你提到的就是說因為各國的狀況不一樣有的國家獨裁有的國家民主有的國家遵守國際法有的國家不遵守所以的旅行安全是一個相當複雜的行為所以中國要透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
188.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
203.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
國際行行組織發布的黃色或紅色的相關的通告當然國際行行組織有他的決策過程那因為我們不是會員國我們其實沒有把握還是要透過有盟國家那對於相關國家的旅行什麼目前外交部 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
205.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
226.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
會採取默契作為或正面表列或負面表列因為我擔心的其實不是沈伯陽他算知名人士我擔心是那些我們不認識名字的資通電軍國軍弟兄沒有人知道他他如果訊息不清楚到了某一個國家旅遊不見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
227.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
250.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那真的是叫天不應中國對我們沒有管轄權但是某一些中國的附庸國他不管國際法的他也不文明所以我真的是希望我們外交部可以思考這一種我們一般旅遊安全警示通常是對當地的政治經濟局勢發布不同顏色的警戒但這個很特別這是中國用政治的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
251.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
280.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
在找台灣人民的麻煩我們一些一貫到的到親到中國旅遊就被抓起來了到現在還沒放回來那中國他在國內這樣搞他在國際上那我以為我到這國旅遊了我搭哪一國的航空他有浮動主權的問題要不要注意我到哪一國過境有沒有需要注意或者我在哪一些國旅遊沒有問題所以我請教部長你們的態度是我們就一個一個溝通默契上處理但默契上處理可能只會幫助到 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
282.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
307.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
知名人士那要不要通案的正面表列或負面表列我們外交部的態度是什麼陳盧委員講中港澳一定是有風險的嘛中共直接可以控制的到那有一些他周邊國家基於一些他這個他們中共的影響力這一些我們也會提醒那另外就是所謂沒有風險比如說這一次沈伯陽委員到了這個德國 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
308.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
328.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
外面是說這是比較低度風險我就說沒有風險我開玩笑講我們應該集資讓他各國去跑然後跑完打完卡的都是安全的綠色名單所以我們內部作業當然都會因為我們有111個外館有外館的地方我們就有可以協助的一個不是 我這一題我簡單收尾收尾就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
329.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
344.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
外交部會不會傾向一個正面表列這些地方沒問題或者一個負面表列這些國家不要去還是我們不會做這兩個工作我是會建議用原則啦我們內部當然是有個案因為這裡面有一些在很微妙的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
345.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
360.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那有一些沒有風險我們就講沒有風險那這一題本席要要求外交部跟跨部會如果你沒有所謂的正面或負面的表列對於這些人不管是國軍或者是個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
361.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
375.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
有涉及這樣子的風險的你們要個別通知到位因為我再講一次知名人士也許沒有風險但是對於那些辛苦捍衛國家的國軍其實我很遺憾我們立法院沒有通過那個決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
377.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
402.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
最先三波被發布通緝的是我們國軍弟兄欸那應該要告知他們說哪些地方去沒有問題哪些地方去要小心哪些航空不能搭以及發生問題怎麼尋求協助我們外交部做不做得到如果你們不公開正面負面表列的話那你要掌握這些人然後告知他風險能不能做到這件事情我們來跟國防部會一下意見因為相關人不見得只有國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
402.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
424.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
對 或者是國安單位 或者是涉及有一些這個能不能盡快做到被中國點名的 我們不要被他恐嚇到但對個別人身的安全 我們身為政府應該要照顧這點我拜託部長 儘速通知相關人那我剛才開玩笑講的就是 沈伯陽現在是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
425.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
446.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
也不能叫地標啦就是說我們如果極致讓他他出現在西班牙出現在布魯塞爾出現在哪裡那個國家大概他都很安全那我們大概都沒問題他是一個旅行安全指標啦那我接下來要請教另外一個議題我們把我們的目光移到洪都拉斯 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
447.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
476.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
洪都拉斯在下個禮拜吧一個多禮拜要投票了11月30號他們的總統大選目前主要的候選人當中有兩位呢公開表達他說如果他們當選要跟台灣重新建交那背景當然有他內政的因素啦他要跟執政黨做政治市場區隔也是原因之一另外爭持的因素是來自於經濟因為2023年以來洪都拉斯 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
477.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
491.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
坦白講見利忘義那到底誰得了利我們也不知道但他們國家的蝦農真的黑黑黑 迷迷茂茂那產生經濟重大衝擊所以對他們來講發現跟中國建交之後答應的沒兌現 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
493.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
509.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
白蝦出口銳減 倒閉60%而中國的廉價品大量的傾銷造成了洪都拉斯在地的中小型企業垮的垮 倒的倒所以他們其實是面對這個問題事實上中國的一帶一路國家都有類似的症狀 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
511.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
533.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我要請教的是宏都阿斯的主要的在野黨已經有這樣的表達意願我第一個請教部長宏國畢竟長期跟我們中華民國是有邦交關係我們在當地的人脈網絡人際關係還在不在在還在嗎訊息的掌握應該還算是 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
534.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
561.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
還算是可以因為有一定的認識的人脈不管是橋頂啊平常就有可能會互動的嘛對對對所以其實消息管道都還在而這些消息管道是bilateral是雙方的他們也知道在那裡我們也知道在那裡我請教目前外交部這個紅國的這兩位主要的總統候選人有沒有透過相關的人際網絡訊息管道跟我方進行聯繫 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
563.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
587.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
因為他們兩個都公開講啦不管是NASOLA或是ASPURA他們這兩位領先第一名第二名都有對外講他們如果當選總統要跟台灣恢復邦交嘛那我們也都聽到了至於說其他的有沒有什麼其他的我們就不方便講因為這兩位現在民調蠻高的耶民調是蠻高的不過他們也算是接近啦但是我從美方那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
589.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
612.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
部分朋友聽到的是 怕他們是連選舉可能都會有被沒收的危險所以現在國際官選團都有到啊對 很注意這次選舉的公平性是他們國家內政 是自由民主國家所關切但是他們如常進行選舉之後兩位主要的 甚至於現在民調名列前茅的候選人公開宣稱要跟台灣恢復邦交 那他 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
613.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
633.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
公開講我們聽到了那私下有沒有透過特定的管道跟我們聯繫你剛才部長表達不便在這邊談論我尊重但是我覺得外交部要做好因應因為11月30號要到了這個因應包含了什麼樣的狀況發生我們有什麼樣的備案劇本那部長你們應該有準備幾套劇本 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
634.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
651.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
當然外交部平常做的就是這個事啊就是要準備好我們期待啦好不好那我們尊重紅國人民民主的選擇他們選擇之後我們再來看後續那我接下來請教高市早苗的部分最後一題幾個幾分鐘高市早苗 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
652.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
670.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
他是在日本其實是最重要的委員會日本國會的預算委員會是日本國會議員最重視的這個委員會NHK實況轉播這個委員會國會議員要提問不像我們這樣急問急答喔是要先把問題提出來內閣交給各 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
673.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
694.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
各這個內閣的部門的常任事務官擬達之後由內閣首相或者相關的官員審視之後才來這邊回答所以日本的國會議員最重視的其實是就是這個預算委員會那高市早苗在這裡面對的所謂的安全事態的詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
695.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
720.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那高市早苗回答的是台灣如果面對中國的武力侵犯包含了可能的這個封鎖等等那最差的狀況有可能會影響他講的是有可能影響到日本的純利事態也是我們講的存亡那接下來他就會根據他們的憲法他的主詞是用日本跟自衛隊跟安倍講不一樣安倍的主詞是美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
721.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
739.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
跟日本他這個主持是日本跟日本自衛隊呢這個有權號發動集體自衛權那這個是他的大概比較完整的論述那這個論述呢坊間討論很多我就不贅述了目前為止日本因為對台灣安全的重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
740.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
767.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那引起了中國的文攻武嚇加經濟制裁你知道我看到中國現在對日本做的事情我差點以為中國要逼日本承認他是中國的一部分就是我不買你的這個我黃海演習然後怎麼樣子好像要逼日本承認他是中國一部分中國的羅馬布就是這樣你身為我們國家的外交部長對於日本國這件事情我們國家對高市內閣的態度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
769.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
788.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我想高市早苗首相他自己說到他言所當言那當然他的身份一定是要遵守他們的法律的規定他也講了一些情境之下所以他並沒有要收回那當然至於說有人不高興那怎麼去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
790.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
814.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
避免身高衝突那這個是另外一件事情那我們台灣對日本的支持這又是另外一個事情我們事實上日本是基於自己的國家的利益尤其是安全他去思考跟對外去說包括不管是政策法令或者是聲明裡面提到台灣有事就是日本有事也就是日美安保有事 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
815.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
841.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以這裡面涉及到一個美國的角色不是日本單方面的行為那中國對台灣一再的霸凌你講的文攻武嚇 經濟脅迫 無所不用其極嘛然後前一陣子用在菲律賓嘛也一樣啊 也是官方課程 什麼都不行現在用在日本嘛 所以問題在中國嘛所以是不是誰有事沒事 是中國在找事啊那他找事就找理由那我們要好好的去管理中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
842.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
868.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我們跟美日非理念相近國家要好好的管理避免中國擦槍走火我們是當作一個危機預防至於他在很多的行動上我們也要了解實況是如何你對日方政府有沒有什麼樣的代表我國政府因為外交部就是國家的發言人我們是支持高斯坦首相他的政策他的印太政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
869.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
872.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這個戰略以及他對於這個我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
875.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
894.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
第一島鏈 包括台海 東海 南海他相關的這個立場那至於說中共他想要升高衝突因為今年是他所謂三個八十年嘛他想要動員民族主義那是不是要轉移到內部的焦點或藉此來怎麼樣去擴張那我們就必須要去釐清然後這些我們必須大家台灣 日本 美國周邊的國家要一起好好來manage |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
902.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
917.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
去管理中共的製造事端造成可能的威脅或是失控的狀況中國對日本家租的不管是黃海軍演現在延長八天對於他的旅遊的禁制令還有現在的水產的禁制令我國態度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
918.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
945.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我跟委員講他那個演習是平常都在做規模很小可是他透過央視把它誇大他離日韓很遠這其實在黃海在中共的這個岸邊啦但是日本就很清楚嘛因為他們從地圖看可是台灣的媒體就把它擴大就變成這個一再的在操作嘛被運用啦這也是認識作戰啊我們必須要了解事情的實況然後也不要要很 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
948.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
970.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
關心這個事但不要去過度反應那剛好讓中共可以操弄他的認知作戰那透過這樣的方式啊旅遊跟經濟的部分呢旅遊跟經濟中共齁什麼東西都武器化所以跟中共來往要小心要去風險化甚至現在美中是根本就是所謂的脫鉤了嘛在稀土在這些新興科技上 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
971.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
986.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
可以赴日旅遊啦 或者台日我覺得日本在這個時候最需要台灣人表示對他的一個支持當年中國莫名其妙糟蹋我們關廟的鳳梨我們現在第一大輸出國就是日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
987.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1014.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
所以我也是請台灣人我們能夠以行動來表示對於高市早苗首相跟他政策的支持多到日本去觀光旅遊現在呢應該是好季節我最後一句話就是其實當中國莫名其妙選擇228連續假期我印象2019突然間宣布把我們剛開始要出產的鳳梨 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1016.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1034.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
就找一個隨便的理由就不讓他出口了想要傷害我們的農民當時是日本 澳洲讓我們的水果往那邊銷售對所以有自由的鳳梨啦這些都跑出來當時的川普的國務卿也吃鳳梨酥啊等等那後來澳洲 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1035.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1056.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
因為得罪中國 他的葡萄啦 紅酒那台灣 我們也產生同樣態度去買紅酒所以這一次 中國這種蠻恨流氓的行徑我覺得我們身為好朋友 而且人家怎麼對我們人給我們一口 我們贏人一刀啦這是我們台灣人的天性所以我請我們國人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1058.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1065.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
多去日本旅遊 然後多購買日本的產品來表示我們台日的友好 |