| IVOD_ID |
165640 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165640 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-19T12:59:34+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-19T13:19:18+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:19:44 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d1c4ade78b39a4db917e24dce8f91e16ee662daff7a264498aeebc5b1f2304e56a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林淑芬 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:59:34 - 13:19:18 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-19T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心指揮官、內政部警政署署長、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、經濟部、金融監督管理委員會、個人資料保護委員會籌備處等就「太子集團涉詐案、跨部會防詐及打詐成效，以及參考新加坡打詐鞭刑入法之可行性評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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蛤很訝異喔我們這個司法院副秘書長沒有來他讓人失落了失望了沒想到廳長有來那我們只能問廳長好來聽聽你起來來有請廳長國民法第六條第一項第四款規定齁就是說這個嗯 |
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有這種例外的狀況可以這個不適用國民法官法阿上次你旁邊這個人叫什麼名字 上次當然回答我你是 女法官我們行事廳的法事法官你電話給我打電話 |
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| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
78.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我再問他說你們那個我問你們副秘書長結果你們與法官來回答我問你們說啊可以不適用國民法官法審理就是第一項第四款有規定被告就被訴事實為有罪的陳述我認罪了然後再來經審判長告知被告通常審判程序之指且依案件情節任不刑國民參與審判為適當 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
80.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
89.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我問你們說這個條文後半段是什麼意思什麼叫做依案件情節認不行國民參與審判為適當可不可以舉個例子給我聽聽看你們與法官講了他說涉及到生命法義的對吧法官你當時這樣講吧我再問你說什麼狀況可以不要適用國民法官審理 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
105.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
117.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
你再跟我講 涉及到生命法義的 那就是一定本來就適用了一定要用 我問你可以哪些不用用你回答我說 一定要用的你把我整笑了 來 聽電話你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
119.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
137.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
跟委員說明一下國民法官的立法意旨沒有不要跟我講那麼多時間有限你就回答我這第四款的這個文字第一個當事人這個已經認罪了後半段是什麼意思你舉個例子讓我了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
139.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
151.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
譬如說他量刑的部分他跟檢察官的求刑或是辯護的或是被告的對刑度的部分你現在是在亂講什麼經審判長告知被告通常審判程序之指 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
152.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
173.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
且依案件情節認為不行國民參與審判為適當這句話是在說什麼委員可不可以讓我慢慢把它陳述出來這個條文你們 你就回答我這個就好我不需要你再去論述法律是你們定的 條文也是你定的叫你舉例說明你舉不出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
174.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
203.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我要舉例的說這個是跟他講說可以行國民法官的時候對不對我們跟他講說你要不要認罪那你認罪之後呢他認為說他可能對相關的刑度或者證據調查他都全部沒有什麼特別的意見那法院認為說檢察官或是辯護人對相關的請求不行國民法官的請求任何適當的話就可以不讓他進行國民法官回到通常程序去審理 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
204.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
232.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
是這個情形啊對 你講得太好了所以我再跟你講有個案發生啊個案就是第一個 當事人認罪了啊量刑上他也沒意見啊然後跟被害者的家屬也和解了啊然後被害人家屬也表達說我們不想用國民法官審理啊然後你們的第六條第一項第四款也允許啊你們的法官不准人家不准人家 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
233.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
249.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
回到一般審理耶你這個個案是這樣 你這條法律定罪是在沒好法律啦條件通通都符合了 但法官就不願意 為什麼你知道嗎因為跟事務分配有關啊 第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
250.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
253.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
你這個法官把他交到交到這個國民法官來審理的時候我讓你折抵案件你分案量可以折很少但是你不能中途而廢也不能夠中途停止也不能夠允許被告退出你認罪了然後你呢對這個刑責也沒有意見了和解了他還是不准他退出為什麼你知道嗎因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
277.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
302.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
因為要到判決 國民法官審理到判決結束一個成審法官還可以再減10個分案還可以再折抵10個分案 多香多甜啊可不可以給我一點時間跟委員說一下各法院對於事務分配跟審理國民法官案件跟一般案情事案件的折抵進行 每個法院都不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
304.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
322.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
每個法院的分案方式也不一樣你說說看平均分案的時候折抵幾件判決的時候折抵幾件文貴你平均啊你不要在這裡顧左右而言我沒辦法比平均因為每個折抵方式完全不一樣以台中地院為例它是直接分給審判長的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
323.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
349.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那我也跟你講 教你這樣講你不要再教我 第六條 第一項第四款這個規定不好的 有什麼不好符合規定 你們的法官來硬要人家陪你們完成這個國民法官的審判不行國民法官 這是個例外我們不希望由當事人來選擇行國民法官或是不行國民法官所以這由法院來做最終的裁量 更個案的裁量來決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
350.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
376.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
你們其實就是要鼓勵要這個國民參審啦欸 這個問題這麼嚴重耶現在國民法官的問題還不只是這樣子喔現在我問你啦國民法官審理的時候職業法官跟國民法官可以事先閱卷嗎不可以事先閱卷 我們是採取卷證不併送對 卷證不併送 對嘛可是你們的職業法官都已經提早知道卷沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
380.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
400.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我們還特別在法院組織法第四條之一你們要開庭的時候強制處分庭跟國民法官法庭要把它分開本來審理的法官跟強制處分庭的法官分開沒關係你現在不要說理論的理論上是這樣子但實際上就不是這樣子為什麼要卷證不併送 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
401.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
413.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我們就避免偏見跟欲斷對 避免偏見跟欲斷可是呢 法官沒有卷你們在開準備庭程序準備的時候是不是這一個職業法官在開的 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
414.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
416.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
但是他看不到內容 他只有看到證據的一些清單跟名稱而已 阿伯公 阿伯公你們在準備庭的時候檢察官會開示證據 然後要申請證據調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
431.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
434.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
開示證據是開示給辯護人互相開示這個是證據開示我再問你他要申請證據調查你的職業法官會不會問啊問說啊你這個為什麼要這樣主張否則職業法官怎麼判斷要不要給他看他是根據他的所謂的他主張要申請調查證據他說明證據的關聯性 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
452.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
456.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
證據的關聯性就會講到案情啊所以你們預斷啊 先入為主啊有心證啊 怎麼不會呢他要判斷要不要給國民法官看是職業法官在決定這個職業法官必須在審理 審查證據之後才把證據提出來交給當場調查證據完畢之後 相關的證據才復卷 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
479.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
487.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
檢辯會申請要調查證據法官要裁定要不要提供證據給國民法官看法官要怎麼裁定的標準會問他們為什麼需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
495.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
517.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
對 沒錯為什麼需要的時候就會講到關聯性關聯性跟必要性的調查但是不涉及到裡面的內容關聯性 必要性就是資訊你的法官 職業法官就不是空白跟國民法官一樣空白好 為什麼不給國民法官看證據這個要不要給他們看 這個事情很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
518.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
531.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
有可能啊 某一個被告他做了四份筆錄有沒有可能檢察官申請 我只看兩份有沒有可能這是慎選證據的結果啦 對啊但是檢察官會怎麼慎選證據 你知道嗎他可以把不利於被告的 他可以你常常 我不跟你講喔 你要聽我說我問題要不說 你在搶著干擾我的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
542.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
570.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
某個被告他做了四份筆錄檢察官有沒有可能把這個不利於這個被告的就申請請求提供要提供這個證據筆錄給這個可能兩份而已給這個國民法官看可是一共有四份他只申請兩份有沒有可能的確有可能那他是不是篩選過的 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
572.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
589.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那職業法官在審理的時候在那裡他要裁釋 如果職業法官真的不知道沒有看過卷證 他們不知道有幾份嘛他就說好 裁定兩份 可是事實上有四份四份裡面有可能有利於被告的他可能就沒有申請了 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
592.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
596.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
然後呢 被告你沒有 我訂禮拜來這裡你不會來 所有被告 都簽沒有法官普通法官不該發這種訴訟然後呢 有專報 將近九成都是法服的律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
607.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
632.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
如果檢察官做了四份筆錄把不利於被告的兩份去申請來看了結果呢法服的律師也剛好沒有看到也不知道事實上有四份筆錄所以他沒有去主張那個被告的辯護人他沒有去主張或是他主張了法官不採其他另外兩份要拿出來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
633.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
651.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
所以送給國民法官看的證據是職業法官裁的他可能知情也有可能是不知情的他裁定了請問只提供兩份這有沒有可能有篩選過了誤導了國民法官了你證據的提供這個是誤導國民法官的 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
657.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
679.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
然後誣導國民法官以後國民法官看到兩份而已嘛所以他就判了 他就誤判了然後誤判以後 能不能改判來 能不能改判我們國民法官法對於判決有特殊規定喔特別法有特殊規定 什麼規定來 你可以回答了行國民參與審判的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
681.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
697.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
他判決以後有什麼特殊規定如果要上訴有什麼特別規定他會違反論理法則經驗法則之後才可以上訴好 你講對了所以前幾天有報紙說國民法官判決的二審都沒有人推翻 廢話因為這是法律強制規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
701.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
708.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
法律強制規定除了國民法官違背經驗法則或論理法則顯然影響於判決者否則不可以改判 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
716.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
735.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
不可以改判這個91條 國民法官法 91條跟92條意思是什麼 除非啦 國民法官喔說兇手是女的 結果你判男的有罪這一種才可以改判啦 否則全部不能改判所以我剛剛講啊 我從程序面來講從程序面來講 你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
740.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
750.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
職業法官在準備程序的時候呢在準備程序的時候不管他到底是不知情 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
751.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
770.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
也有可能是故意包庇啊或是故意的啊知情的他對於這個申請調查證據的時候他可能知道有四個筆錄但他只提供兩個他也有大部分我寧願相信他不知道有四份筆錄所以檢察官申請兩份的時候他就核定了然後呢在這種狀況裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
776.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
794.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
在這種狀況裡面檢察官一定站在對自己有利嘛未來審判的時候有利於他起訴的這個要件的這個立場去申請調查證據嘛然後辯護律師我來囉辯護律師的問題是什麼法服你們付多少錢法服律師都通常一個案件收多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
796.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
806.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
法輔辯護律師一個案件收多少錢我們北法輔他可以複數的委任他可以最多可以辯到三個法輔律師好啦 多少錢啦7萬3千塊7萬3千元是7萬4千元 欸 明年明年 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
812.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
841.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
10年以上的通通都要適用國民法官法大概會有274件我要講這個喔我講這個是知識體大現在的是重大的殺人死亡的這個案件喔可是明年是10年以上會有什麼案件你知道嗎比如說公務員違背職務收賄明年用在國民法官法的這個審理上面你知道貪賭案件卷宗 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
842.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
851.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
多非常多 比殺人 酒駕撞死人的卷宗還要多百倍也有可能 數十倍 百倍你們付給人家7萬元你相信更多是3萬 5萬而已 法服的律師他們會花多少時間他們能有多少時間收到3萬 5萬 7萬你不要講那個極端可以一次聘3個的 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
870.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
882.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
然後呢 仔細看 看得很清楚然後呢他可以充分的為這個被告去辯護所以在這種狀況裡面這個姿勢體大 很嚴重啊上級審 你在 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
888.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
916.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
申請調查證據的時候法官都不知道是真的不知道還是假的不知道我們說他是真的不知道了真的不知道這個證據有幾份然後就同意檢察官的申請然後呢影響了國民法官然後造成了誤判誤判以後一審以後還不能夠二審不能改判一定要遵照國民法官的審判法律規定不能改判 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
917.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
935.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
這樣這件事 感到這樣感到都完全不需要檢討的啊 制度都做完畢都不用檢討啊跟委員說明一下我們相信檢察官有客觀義務他對被告有利不利的他都要注意啦你現在不要說這種的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
938.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
962.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我現在在說的是這個制度你們不覺得這種制度其實應該可以要討論一下嗎你們現在在這裡就直接強力辯護一路辯護到底你們整個國民法官法你們的施行細則你們沒有訴訟法國民法官的訴訟法你們全部定在施行細則341條多如牛毛而且在裡面都用特別架構 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
963.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
980.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
然後在施行席則裡面然後呢直接說我排除其他法律的適用這個都已經很荒謬了所以我在講有沒有一種可能啦我幫你們講救濟的方法你不給人家救濟的方法你在制度面執行上真的有可能會有問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
985.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
994.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那你需不需要思考另一種救濟 譬如說被駁回辯方申請調查的可以上訴到二審 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
996.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1018.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
對不對比如說你們的這個證據調查的準備程序的時候呢你還有原來的職業法官去決定要什麼東西給國民法官看什麼東西不要這個過程職業法官不會多多少少都形成新證嗎他絕對不會跟國民法官一樣是 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1020.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1045.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
空白的來聽的不會絕對不會你不覺得這種制度在準備程序的時候證據調查的時候有可能你需要配套式讓別組的法官來處理這個準備程序而不是受命要處理這個審理這個個案的法官直接來處理這個準備程序你不覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1047.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1057.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
真真正正職業法官跟國民法官同時接觸到這個案子這樣子才是最好的嗎謝謝委員的指教我可以回答嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1060.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1077.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
就關於剛剛委員左指教的細則340幾條的細則有沒有排除相關的刑事訴訟特別規定事實上如果委員有仔細看國民法官法第四條的它就寫本條有特別規定除本條有特別規定還是適用刑事訴訟或其他的法律規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1078.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1082.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
所以在上次委員在質詢的時候有關八十八條你現在算概括性啦全部一句話就全部都排除啊連訴訟程序連訴訟程序你們都訴訟程序都定在這個施行細則裡面施行細則都可以排除母法了不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1099.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1101.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
國民法 國民法 國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法國民法 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1124.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1142.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
因為大家我想麻煩那個林委員因為我們今天時間已經超過很多了然後呢明天明天我們正好會繼續開嗎明天而且主要是司法院明天主要就是因為司法院然後我們明天再來對副秘書長也會到明天主要就是司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1142.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1146.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
因為今天其實聽了林委員他針對國民法官制度的問題非常嚴重其實本行有觀察到所以我想很多的議題是不是就留待明天然後再來繼續拷問好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1164.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1178.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
也請聽長剛剛林委員提到的那些建議我們會把陳孝平委員會有提到相關問題需要討論的問題今天都通通提供過來我們把它用書面給委員參考今天通通就都要提供過來了沒問題那我們這些問題明天可以繼續討論好 謝謝謝謝林委員 |