| IVOD_ID |
165632 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165632 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-19T12:39:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-19T12:53:02+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:02 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d17d2516e55c143d657e24dce8f91e16ee90886039ce1be0fd5195ddf4f073bf875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
李坤城 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:39:00 - 12:53:02 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-19T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心指揮官、內政部警政署署長、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、經濟部、金融監督管理委員會、個人資料保護委員會籌備處等就「太子集團涉詐案、跨部會防詐及打詐成效，以及參考新加坡打詐鞭刑入法之可行性評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席我們先請法務部曾部長調查局陳局長銀行局的童局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
20.205 |
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大家好 辛苦了這個在上個禮拜三的時候其實我就在金管會我們就問過這個問題了那時候我是認為說我們都是要等到美國的司法部還有財政部要求台灣配合調查之後我們才開始展開這個行動所以那時候我也問了這個同局長就是說你們這個申報的資料到底有沒有交給這個調查局還有有關的單位那時候同局長的答覆是說有有做了52次的申報 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
48.261 |
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那這方面我先請這個同區長再做細一點的答覆這52次的申報是從2019年開始嗎那是分幾年申報了幾次還是都是在2019年申報的 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
62.063 |
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一半的這個量是在2019年的時候申報的一半 一半 26次 2019年那之後勒大概就是其中有22次的部分是集中在2019年的時候就108年的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
80.248 |
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94.413 |
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那之後呢是因為有些案件是因為他金額的往來並不是很大那因為被媒體揭露了之後呢這些金融機構才進行相關的申報那所以後來到最後是申報是到哪個時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
95.673 |
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105.816 |
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就是到最新的大概是現在為止到現在為止那分佈時間也很久啊從2019年你說20幾次22還26大概22次22次申報那後來還有30幾次就是從2019 2020年到現在也5年的時間陸陸續續會申報好 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
114.358 |
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129.788 |
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那我問了之後那這個可能要請陳局長來做答覆了那我想說那52申報為什麼沒有任何的舉動啊沒有採取任何的行動啊那隔天你們就發布了新聞稿就說有你們有去做了延邊加值金融情報26件就表示這26件是有情報價值的 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
132.229 |
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142.935 |
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這可以繼續再追查下去的對 會診出來又覺得更有可疑的我們就把它研編出來然後分送給那也是在2019年的時候嗎不是 這從2019年到現在陸陸續續陸陸續續好 那我問了26件你們認為說有這個情報價值然後勒之後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
152.23 |
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按兵不動等到美國的司法部財政部要求要調查之後我們才開始做謝謝 謝謝委員給我們有這個機會說明其實在這個過程裡面其實就是點點滴滴我們透過這樣子的一個金融情報去標定到特定的人然後從特定的人再去標定到特定的公司然後從人 公司再去標定到和平大院的這些資產跟這些豪車還有銀行的帳戶那當然這中間有包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
181.816 |
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調查局也有包含刑事局那所以這五年的時間你們是怎樣埋伏然後暗兵不動然後要等待什麼時機咧一方面清查然後一方面我問局長就是說為什麼沒有採取行動那還是部長可以回答我為什麼沒有採取行動我就可以回答因為這個部分必須要有前置犯罪洗錢的犯罪必須要所以那時候沒有認為說他們有洗錢的嫌疑嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
207.529 |
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有嫌疑但亦來亦去欸我們50萬就要通報了耶對啊 沒錯他有嫌疑嘛但是我們就要找到說那這一筆錢他到底前置犯罪是什麼因為他這是一個跨國的一個詐騙好 那所以他在台灣他從這個2019年開始之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
226.073 |
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242.509 |
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在台灣買了8棟的豪宅8戶啦8戶的豪宅然後金額總共花了38億然後這個豪宅都是登記在同一個人身上那個人的忠義叫做林忠良這個你們都有掌握到嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
243.69 |
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266.525 |
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你們沒有認為說他是不是洗錢啊為什麼在和平大院買了8戶然後總共花了這個38億然後都是集中在2019年密集買入而且這些8家公司都是空殼公司都登記在豪宅裡面你們沒有任何的懷疑有當然有懷疑有懷疑然後呢所以我們現在因為這個本案的主嫌從110年出境他就沒有再進來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
268.768 |
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286.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那在台灣沒有任何人了嗎台灣就是他的這些我問局長如果沒有美國司法部財政部要求我們配合調查的話所以繼續在那邊等待嗎其實本案美國沒有要求我們配合調查本案美國在起訴的時候他也沒有通知我 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
287.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
302.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那為什麼剛好大家都是14號15號開始他一公告制裁的時候我們就知道就是說大家都動了所以當然這個時候我們也有默契我們就馬上要啟動這個案件這個相關的這些資產的扣押這也是有通知我們嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
304.46 |
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318.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這個不用他通知嘛我們其實看新聞看上對有默契啊這個大家國際之間大家有默契我那時候說如果如果不是在那個司法部起訴之後列了這一個有台灣人的名字然後還有酒後在和平大院裡面你們不會採取行動嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
320.286 |
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338.427 |
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他是說9家公司啊美國也不知道有資產在理大院我的問題大家的疑問我早上聽了這麼久就是說你們已經有情報了然後也知道說在這邊有掌握有掌握啊然後呢就沒有然後了啊所以就是說在美方公告制裁以後我們在兩國內我們就要馬上執行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
340.789 |
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368.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
宣告制裁之後我們才開啟行動嘛對不對那大家的疑問就在於說那如果沒有美國的這一次制裁的行動的話那我們是不是就繼續在那邊安兵不動繼續的等在那邊我們也想要抓到陳志啊講白了一點就是這樣子啊你們又想要抓到他如果祖賢他沒有入境的話我們怎麼會去除了祖賢之外難道旁邊沒有周圍那些小弟嗎你沒抓到大頭沒有用啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
369.663 |
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396.648 |
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那所以你就在那邊一直等嗎我的意思是說就在那邊一直等嗎而且你對於他們洗錢洗把這個錢洗成說這個豪宅名車你們沒有任何的一些警覺性嗎這個就算你們這段期間做了很多的努力這個14號之後當美國的司法部一起訴之後你們馬上就說有我們都準備好了你看我們都已經知道說誰是誰了豪宅名車我們都知道了隔幾天就馬上去追了 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
398.226 |
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421.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
可是如果沒有美國的這個行動的話那是不是都還是在那邊大家彼此都還在情報交換其實大家也都想要去抓到這個層次不是啊那你現在層次也沒有進來我們還不是要照抄因為就是說大家通通都已經曝光了嘛那當然我們不執行不行我們不執行的話他的資產萬一移走我們不是更糟 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
422.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
437.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這個就是大家在懷疑的地方那這個也是到目前為止我認為啦因為我早上也有聽我認為就是不論是部長局長或是說各位沒有把大家心中的疑點說出來你就是等到15號之後才開始行動了嘛之前都是準備埋伏 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
440.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
463.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
對啊是這樣子啦所以你是要等到美國的信號是這樣子美國的信號開始之後才開始追嘛包委員還有另外一個重點啦因為他這個整個的犯罪其實是在國外啦那以我們台灣的部分來說他把錢洗成豪宅跟民車把資產藏在一部分啦是洗了45億耶一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
464.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
491.058 |
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其他國家更多英國有1.3億的美金我說在台灣至少有洗了45億嘛對不對是 他把資產藏在那邊那為什麼你們沒有按照什麼洗錢防治法做任何的對 所以就我剛剛跟委員報告了嘛洗錢防治法它有前階段的前置犯罪我們必須要掌握到前置犯罪50萬就要申報了50萬就要銀行就要金融機構就要跟你們申報了申報是沒有犯罪啊申報對 申報沒有犯罪那就有警覺了嘛對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
493.933 |
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519.177 |
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所以你們認為說之前都沒有犯罪的行為就對了所以沒辦法去抓他我們在監控啦因為在國內其實因為他的犯罪在國外在國內我們也還沒有找到我們國內是洗錢不然我們現在是用什麼去抓他組織犯罪條例組織犯罪條例那如果按照局長講的這犯罪都在國外那我們為什麼用組織犯罪條例去抓他 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
521.291 |
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547.539 |
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因為這案子還有前段的一個過程就是112年的時候他們有內訌他們其實彼此互相告過好 那又是另外一個story了沒有 現在就是大家大家的疑問就在於說如果沒有美國的這個起訴書的話我們就是在看說好 那就等這個城市哪時候會進來或是說等發生什麼事情再來做處理就對了大家還在合作啊大家各國都要抓到 想要抓到他 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
549.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
578.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
他沒有出現我們也是照辦對不對因為美方已經動了我們當然就是要動答案就是說美方動起來我們才動我們其實是國際同步執行好 我再來問一下那個童局長來 謝謝局長這個案子我看你們今天的報告你們有提到說有10家本國銀行跟太子集團旗下10家公司還有關聯戶有存款的往來有沒有包含這個公股銀行目前沒有目前沒有 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
579.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
591.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
然後呢 這個最早開戶追溯到2018年然後你說三家銀行 這是你們的報告三家銀行有受信的往來這什麼意思是有跟他們受信買豪宅 買豪車嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
594.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
612.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
最主要是借户他在銀行他有定存美金那他想要用定存單的把美金的定存單直接出來變成台幣去買他的標的物所以這個受信往來大概就是借户他本身跟銀行有定期存款 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
613.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
640.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
你說白話文一點是什麼意思就是說他在銀行本來就已經有存定存那存定存不是只有在這三家十家都有不是嗎但大部分就是說他會跟這三家所謂有壽性往來最主要是因為他有存美金的定存那他因為他要去買比較高價的標的物所以他不要把美金的定存解出來他就說好那我把美金定存直接出來借成台幣去買那所以這些豪宅是這樣子買的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
641.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
657.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
就是太陽不一但是只要大額交易可以交易銀行都有盡到他該申報的義務那所以這三家銀行沒有問題嗎我們有進行相關的經檢在洗錢房子申報的過程裡面他們都有盡到該盡的義務所以沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
659.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
686.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
就洗錢防治的申報義務作為這個部分是沒有問題的那我覺得蠻奇怪的啦這個你們或許有你們的精簡的一個原則因為上次我有問那這個彭主委他有提到就是說未來啦有關於這個洗錢你把它洗洗到買豪宅洗到買豪車民車這個幾乎是這個詐騙集團的標配了那我們沒有任何的防治的作為嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
688.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
699.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就是說像你有提到說這個資料不是只有給調查局比如內政部 他有這個地政室然後呢 經濟也送到協防中心等等這個能不能串起來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
700.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
722.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
就是說因為現在大家都知道說要去把這個錢洗成豪宅啊洗成民車啦那沒有任何的規範嗎根本也不知道現在洗錢房子法的規範是我們這些監理機關會要求所轄的機構把相關的情資統一送到我們國家的FIU就是洗錢房子處所以我不會把洗錢房子處是調查局的吧然後勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
723.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
735.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
所以包括你這邊所講的像地政室他也納管就是說在做這個大筆的不動產買賣的時候他也必須要把相關的情形這次有嗎這次有嗎這次買豪宅有嗎有嗎 局長有嗎沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
743.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
759.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
委員你問到重點我之前都白問了就對了依照那個洗錢防治法除了金融機構他有申報的義務其實那個不動產經濟業還有地震室他也都有申報的義務他有申報嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
760.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
788.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
對 沒有 沒有申報以本案來說啦就是說我們未來還需要再進進的地方應該就是我剛剛提到這兩部分但是就銀行來講我剛剛已經有講過銀行他該盡的責任他已經申報了但他買了這麼多豪宅其實在這中間會經過不動產經紀業者也會經過地震室那不動產經紀業跟地震室其實應該也要去做KYC啦那接下來漏洞要怎麼補起來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
790.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
796.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個大概我們會跟相關的部會去建議應該這是監理的問題這是哪裡 內政部嗎監理的問題我們有提出建議你們要趕快把這個洞補起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
806.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
833.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
这个如果每次看到新闻诈骗集团被抓到之后他们就是住豪宅就是开民车大家觉得说就住诈骗集团就好了对这个本案虽然其实我们有成功的扣到这些整个太子集团的这些资产但是台高检署其实也针对本案也召开了各部会的一个会议来研究说就这个案子来说我们还有没有什么可以再精进的地方就像你刚才讲的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
834.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
839.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那委員問的啦對啊 就是這個要把它補起來這段時間把它補起來好不好謝謝委員 |