| IVOD_ID |
165592 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165592 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-19-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
11 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-19T10:45:25+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-19T10:59:08+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:13:43 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9c5448532e3833d15323b945bef7cb5b56e0913f8e9ddf6f45c75d439e1a44ecd60c73881cc9b1c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
謝衣鳯 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:45:25 - 10:59:08 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-19T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣中油股份有限公司董事長及行政院公共工程委員會首長就「中油三接案第二期遭檢舉浮報工程款項爭議」進行報告，並備質詢。
【11月19日及20日二天一次會】） |
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好 謝謝主席我想要請我們公共工程副主委副主委經濟部長工部長還有我們中油的董事長中油董事長 請 |
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32.009 |
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那个我要问他我要问他我想请教一下就公共工程的执掌来讲那就这一次中游的这个三接的工程案有没有违反任何有他的合法性 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
54.419 |
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跟委員說明就目前因為我們是從政府採購網上面可以公開取得的資料我們有去檢視過就形式上看起來我們沒有發現有什麼特別異常那因為如果依照媒體的這個報導它有可能會被質疑的應該是在巡駕的那個階段那個階段我們目前我們會啟動專案的集合那我們專案集合才有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
84.211 |
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92.638 |
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去看個案的其他非公開的資料所以我們等到專案集合去看了以後才有辦法看看說有沒有問題 |
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93.715 |
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那就政府部門而言如果這個採購案沒有任何的違法但是就目前民眾所疑慮的是整個發包的成本它是不是有合理性這個部分我們行政院有沒有相關的組織 |
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117.777 |
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有沒有相關的部門可以來釐清所有工程成本的合理性那如果我們沒有相關的單位可以釐清每一個政府部門公共工程這樣子成本的合理性的時候那過去以及未來我們工程裡面這個成本的控管如何來處理 |
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146.94 |
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跟委員報告當然在行政的流程上面有層層的一個控管包括那是行程控管但是成本合理性的控管呢公共工程有嗎我們有編了一些參考的一些資料因為每個工程的差異性非常大項目也非常多所以我們就是就一些共通性的一些以前結標的這些相關的價格的資料庫每個資料庫 |
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173.726 |
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那我們還有針對大宗的一些資產啊那麼也提供比較及時的有這兩個資料但是這個是政府的既定政策所以當政府的既定政策一決定以後那所延伸的就是那如果在工程大家認為政府必要必須必須要做的時候那會不會漫天開架會不會造成工程的浪費那 |
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200.64 |
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226.742 |
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我們行政部門怎麼樣子來做監督以及稽查那給予立法部門在審理預算期間相關的資料呢那如果政府部門也沒有相關的管考的措施的時候我們怎麼樣子確定這一次的工程以及給予立法院的預算報告是有合理性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
227.672 |
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根為報告就是說當然這一次的預算到底有沒有浮編這要經過調查啦那麼就整個採購的過程裡面他的一套的設計本來就是要確保這個預算編列的一個合理性那麼再加上 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
245.705 |
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270.901 |
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我們審計單位有事後審計的一個制度那就以本工程為例的話因為它涉及到專業性事後審計已經緩不濟急了是不是事後審計已經緩不濟急了審計目前的作業其實也不限於事後審計它可以隨時審計那麼就工程個案因為它涉及到專業性所以我們必須如果說機關本身不具這個專業性它當然必須委託專業機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
275.404 |
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289.176 |
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機構去來評估那麼再根據市場的行情以及相關的這一些關我提到的我們有一些資料庫去綜合比對所以這個東西要經過個案去看看到底有沒有福報是要經過這樣層層的查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
292.353 |
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318.746 |
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國務部長那就這個部分經濟部有沒有折承中油或者是你們經濟部部內就要開始對該項的合約的這樣子成本的合理性你們是不是有做相關的調查你是說事後還是事前現在啊現在有啊你們是不是已經開始在調查什麼時候可以給大家對 |
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321.835 |
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339.311 |
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就是剛剛中央公司已經講了就是12月中之前他會把那個調查結果報到我們部裡面來你們調查是對整個發包嘛但是對於這整個工程的合理性因為現在大家在質疑的是不是工程上面有福報嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
339.872 |
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361.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那你們看你們福報如果按照週刊所寫的是如實的話但會讓民眾認為你們福報金額這麼大那我們在立法院刪一個一億兩億中油就哀哀叫既然福報金額可能200億300億所以立法院如果刪200億300億那有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
364.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
387.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
是不是不是不是如果据我了解我看的那个资料来讲的话事实上世纪公司他有跟上因为一个工程他基本上这个材料多少钱他的施作多少钱事实上他有非常细的那那个东西以后他们当然有工程上他有一些技术性的问题那他综合评估起来以后然后他会 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
388.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
409.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
报一个价钱给中油公司那中油公司会公开阅览让大家来看这个标案这个多少钱那也会去仿价我这个标案情况下的话大致上可以多少那不同的公司以后那司机综合以后他会报一个价钱去给中油中油呢自己再审查一次看合不合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
409.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
433.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那合理的話 那再做成案子 報到我們經濟部來我們經濟部也就會經過審查 然後再報到行政院去那行政院呢 他通常會交付給國發會做審查那國發會會再問相關部會 包括公共工程委員會他這樣的案子是不是合理那這樣的情況之下 行政院才會核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
434.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
450.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以當初是有這樣子一個流程的是不是所以當初你們並沒有發現有福報嗎所以最主要是在中油裡面還是在經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
452.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
475.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
是不是委員我做進一步說明好你說那麼剛剛部長所報告呢是針對計劃本身整體計劃的部分那會有經過部啦到國發會啦到院去核定這整體的計劃那至於這個計劃要實施以後對於各項的工程那麼所需要編列的預算去公告招標 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
475.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
495.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那這個部分的話是審核就在公司的董事會核定並沒有報到部裡面去了那剛剛部長也提到就是說講得很清楚因為這個工程它是牽涉到很專業所以對我們公司來講必須要委託專業公司來做這個海事工程的一個評估給我們報價 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
496.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
520.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那这个过程中会经过公开阅览经过厂商询价最后所定出来的提供给我们是253亿的一个预算公司这边接到253亿以后当然会去复核会去审核这里面所编列的项目的合理性那我们审核的结果是认为是合理的所以经过董事会之后才进行后续的采购 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
521.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
540.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
好現在民眾最質疑的不是當初你們認為是不是合理的而是到底整體的採購這個發包案到底在成本的合理性上面是不是能夠受公平是不是能夠更有效率的我希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
541.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
560.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
不管是公共工程委員會還是經濟部應該要責成行政院對於所有工程成本的合理性要進行你們要也許成立一個新的單位或是相關的就是跨部會的小組一定要對這個我認為鞏部長你可以提出的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
562.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
585.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
因为公共工程委员会它本来就有一个什么项目什么样的工程什么样的成本它有一个range让大家可以依循跟参考那你如果超过这个价格显然那会不会是range go我是说应该你们要有一个成本合理性行政部会要有一个成本合理性的一个公共工程成本合理性的这样子一个组织啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
586.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
607.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
你才能告訴民眾啊不然你們現在根本大家都在懷疑啊不是公眾會就是這個單位啊扮演這樣的角色我知道我是說他們要召開要來說明啊還有我還有第二個問題就是在挪威人這個事件上面那我想請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
609.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
623.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所涉及的因為我們在2022年有修了國家安全法對於商業間諜以及營業秘密外洩有相當就是說程度的規範這個是國家核心關鍵技術項目清單裡面有32項我想要請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
633.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
659.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
羅為仁如果把兩奈米以下的排氣墊的技術帶到英特爾去那這涉及到哪一個技術就是技術清單裡面哪一個項目報告委員就是說的確這些清單它的這些項目是我們經濟部來擬定的那當然經過相關的程序是確定下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
662.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
677.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
但是罗一仁拿走什么样的技术这个应该由台积电来认定我们也会配合高检署的调查来做说明他拿走的相关技术是不是符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
677.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
703.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
委員剛剛提到的這個清單裡面如果符合這個國家核心關鍵技術的項目清單的話那他就就是違反了國家安全法是不是有這樣的疑慮對是不是有這樣的疑慮那還是由司法單位來最後的判定那如果他違反了國家安全法的時候我們就要怎麼樣你們會不會要 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
706.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
729.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
起訴你們要 這個由司法單位才有辦法做決定對我是說你們是不是要去要要要提出 檢調單位跟司法單位才有辦法做那現在司法單位有做進一步的調查嗎 高檢署有開始在調查所以高檢署進行調查 對對對那台積電還沒確定這個我們就不知道因為這是偵查如果需要我們配合的話我們當然就會配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
730.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
755.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以你們目前還不瞭解台積電確認這個核心技術外洩的部分是到什麼樣的程度你們不瞭解這個要由公司來說明比較好那你有瞭解他們評估的進度是如何的嗎什麼進度就是他們要查明這個外洩的進度是說高檢署還是台積電 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
758.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
785.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
因为什么样的秘密泄露出去这个也是属于秘密这个我们还是要尊重台积电对可是我认为你们还是要去了解因为涉及到国家安全的国家安全法的相关规定还有这涉及到现在我们整个就是说半导体要移到美国去的这样子的相关的问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
785.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
807.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那民眾對於這個相關的到底關鍵技術有沒有外洩以及能不能留下N-1最核心的技術在台灣這都是我們目前民眾所關心的問題我們請部長回去好好跟台積電溝通了解可以嗎可以可以可以好 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
814.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
817.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
接下來我們請陳昌明委員請做詢答 謝謝 |