| IVOD_ID |
16559 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16559 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-31 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-31T13:30:02+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-31T17:10:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:39:58 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b73ade72829c64ed84f0cb0beb0459e041854146fdf8e2ad1c35f50c34d2eafac58cac2dd03c5a415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-31T14:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會 第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員暨行政院國家發展基金管理會召集人劉鏡清率所屬單位就「國家發展基金投資如興股份有限公司及聯合再生有限公司之決策及監督管理作為」提出報告） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:30:02 - 17:10:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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好 謝謝各位委員我們目前已處法定人數那我們現在就開始開會那請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會第三次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年1月8日星期三下午20時41分至46分地點群仙樓802會議室出席委員尤浩等13人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2164.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2189.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
請教委員一人 主席黃昭基委員國昌報告事項 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項 討論本會調閱文件與資料保管及查閱注意事項與其他相關事宜決議 以調查文件與資料第一點至第四點 均照委員林思明等七人提案通過發函請國家發展委員會及行政院國家發展基金管理會於一個月內提供本會所列之相關調閱文件與資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2192.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2219.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
查閱注意事項考量本會工作人員之人力配置相關文件與資料於調查期間每週一至即週四上午九十至下午五十陳列於本院群憲樓502會議室供本院委員親自查閱令每週二週三及週五則請本會委員於一天前進行預約一月時段將相關文件與資料陳列於502會議室並供本會委員親自查閱 散會宣傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2222.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2244.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有無遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處主席來請那個中委員嘉賓會議詢問今天這個我們的這個附件是什麼這個附件的內容那麼請會務人員說明一下這個附件是指什麼的附件我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2259.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2285.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
最後是依照我們上一次調閱的範圍然後請他們提供的會議資料的內容不好意思我先跟在場委員說明一下就是按照我們的調閱辦法跟調閱文件的內容因為過去的這段時間當中我們已經請 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2288.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2305.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
國發基金的同仁非常辛苦把一些資料都放在我們502的會議室當中了那各位委員如果有花一點時間去看調閱的內容就會知道裡面所有的文件都是在我們調閱的範圍之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2307.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2322.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那只不過說其他委員的情況我不是那麼的清楚那但過去這段時間當中我大概是就依照我們這個調閱辦法的規定所有的文件至於502那我都有去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2323.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2352.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那其他委員是不是有花時間去看這件事情我就不是這麼清楚但我可以跟各位委員報告現在下面在502的文件分成兩類一個密件的部分全部我們國發基金的統人就密件的部分有用牛皮紙袋把它密封起來上面標示是密件其他不是密件的部分也都在502的會議室裡面然後有全部 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2353.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2375.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
公開就是讓我們這個調查委員會的委員可以去閱來那上面的內容就關乎我們在調閱範圍之內相關公司他們的會議紀錄那以及國發基金跟他們彼此之間在國發基金相關的委員會當中所做的會議的決議在會議的時候他們所負的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2378.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2407.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
一些評估的文件的附件那全部都在目前全部都在502的會議室請問各位還有沒有其他的推薦主席你說了半天你的意思就是說這是我們上次會議議事錄裡面決議第二點這裡面我們這裡面第二點的調閱注意事項那個說明說502的會議室放了這四項資料的意思就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2408.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2423.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
是好請問委員對上次的會議議事錄有無遺漏沒有可以確認嗎好好謝謝好那請議事人員宣讀報告事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2425.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2442.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
報告事項 邀請國家發展委員會主任委員暨行政院國家發展基金管理會召集人劉靜清率所屬單位就國家發展基金投資如新股份有限公司及聯合再生股有限公司之決策及監督管理作為提出報告 宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2445.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2471.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
好 謝謝那我們現在先介紹在場的委員我們現在到場的有我從我左手邊開始一一介紹有鍾嘉斌委員陳超明委員蔡奕宇委員王逸川委員吳思堯委員那在我右手邊的有楊瓊英委員吳宗憲委員徐欣穎委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2472.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2494.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那今天也感謝我們國發會的主委 劉主任委員 劉靜欣主委那還有國發基金管理會有汪執行秘書廷安有葉副執行秘書淑芳有施副執行秘書明山那還有張子余組長 林怡暉組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2500.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2526.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
好 那我們現在因為來請中委員嘉賓那還是因為上次的會議是1月8號嘛1月8號到現在有一段時間了那想要請會務人員說明一下這四項的調閱文件的內容是上次 依上次的第一項的內容的程序通過的是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2527.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2538.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
是沒有錯我要確認一下嘛就是我們所謂的決議上次易思路記錄決議一就是透過表決之後通過的這四項內容是 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2540.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2561.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那個我再強調一次就是因為我們現在也要體恤我們恢復同仁的辛勞所以只有禮拜一跟禮拜四提供調閱那但是也有通知大家說禮拜二禮拜三禮拜五如果真的要去看的話就事前跟他們預約那他們會去開門讓大家進去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2563.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2584.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那現在所有的資料今天是禮拜一其實在502的會議室上面裡面通通都有那裡面的資料都可以讓各位委員來去越南好那我們現在是不是先請劉主任委員上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2585.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2594.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
徵詢問題來請王委員一串這次白蘭的立法要執行刑事法要重新違憲大法官已經解釋了調查中的案子監察院在查的 司法在查的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2606.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2617.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
就不能行使啊你現在是在行使什麼 現在叫國會啊國會今天報告這兩個案子都在進行中啊一個監察院 一個署在進行中啊所以我不知道今天這個法案為什麼可以開啊啊大法官 他們把這個郵寶箱就跟你說不行啊 還說你是聽不懂你就不能行使這個調查權這就是進行中的案子啊 你現在是在開什麼法好來回復一下那個王委員逸川的說明第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2636.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2655.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
目前我們針對國發基金調查委員會裡面現在在502所有調閱的文件範圍內容裡面完全不涉及到任何刑事司法在司法程序當中的案件內容這個是第一點的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2658.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2674.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
不然你那個題目就已經不能調查這兩個案子都在進行中,是不是?啊就已經在進行中,你要調查啊大法官跟你說不行,你還要調查啊我們這個開這個會有什麼意義啊大法官就說不行,做的調查,做的內容啊大法官也是說這些都是違憲的啊你怎麼...你衝這個要幹嘛? |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2675.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2698.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
沒有 我可能還是要跟各位委員說明一下針對憲法法院他們判決相關的內容 我想恐怕還是要詳閱比較不會出現一些不必要的誤會我再說明一次 目前...你很厲害 你不是很厲害 大法官出現之後你還幫大法官解釋 你不是很厲害嗎?你告訴維生 你不是很厲害嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2698.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2705.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
還幫大法官解釋?我看人家說你要幫大法官說五四三 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2705.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2726.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
好謝謝王玉川委員我想大法官在憲法法院裡面的判決每一個條文哪一個部分可以行使哪一個部分不能夠行使我們從成立本調查委員會開始到現在完全都是按照憲判制相關的議制在進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2727.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2745.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那我剛剛說明的客觀事實是說如果委員有到502會議室去看裡面相關所有會議的資訊的話就會清楚的發現裡面沒有任何調查中案件相關的卷證資料完全沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2746.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2754.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
裡面有的全部都是我們的國發會跟國發基金那他們跟相關調閱範圍內的公司彼此往來的韓文 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2758.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2772.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
而這一些東西全部都是在可以調閱的範圍當中那也請大家要信任我們的國發會的同仁國發基金的同仁都是相當守法的不會把不可以調閱的範圍送到這邊來 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2778.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2791.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
你自己去解說這都沒有關係 都給你說就好了你覺得國發基金的高材 他們高材高薪違法這事情要怎麼處理都要你做法官 都要你判定 這個可以這個不可以你沒那麼厲害啦 真的沒那麼厲害啦 你說那些都沒有就沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2796.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2821.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我可能還是要跟各位委員稍微說明一下各位委員如果有下去502看會議資料在502的會議資料當中發現他們有提供什麼不能夠調閱的範圍都歡迎各位委員能夠表達意見不過我所看到的客觀事實是說似乎委員們也都沒有去看那個會議資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2822.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2828.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
在沒有看會議資料的你又知道啊你又知道啊你又知道啊你又知道啊主席你會這樣說嗎你會這樣說嗎你推論別人的行為真正你只要有的作為嗎你講什麼花膏你不要說我做主席喔做主席我們平常就去看不去看喔在那裡伺服補導會議有沒有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2846.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2851.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以我現在就針對客觀的事實在回答問題嗎沒有關係啊那我們就按照客觀事實我要回答委員所提出來的問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2870.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2884.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們每次到502去看會議資料的時候上面全部要簽到嘛那是不是可以請會務同仁現在去502把簽到表過去從調閱開始到目前為止的簽到表全部都拿上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2885.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2914.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
主席 這是您的權責 您要請圈道表拿來都沒問題來 我先你們就做這個事情啊 主席 請針對問題回答本會員會的標題是國家發展基金會不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會要調查的是國發基金的不當投資跟管理失職這裡面 這個標題裡面跟我們今天 剛剛本席就跟您一根請教我們這裡面所附的調閱文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2915.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2935.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
是對應著這個國家發展基金會的不當投資及管理失職的調查所以請國發基金會提供他105年的直接投資組合當中的這些內容第二項直接投資組合的新興事業第三項105年開始所謂的這個作業要點當中的事股 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2935.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2951.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
政策評估會議第四項這105年起所投資的這些往來的韓文是請問這四項資料當中有哪一個字提到爐心哪一個字提到再生能源聯合再生因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2952.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2972.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我們要調查的是主體對象是國發基金有沒有不當投資所以調閱的這些內容是就一個原則105年之後的只要符合這些條件的通通調閱今天的會議通知您說這個不是您說啦就是我們看到的會議通知這裡面呢是要召開會議結果我們的會議呢開會是由 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2980.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2997.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
你要 我們開會是有寫喔 邀請國家發展委員會主任委員暨行政院國家發展基金會管理會召集人率所屬就國發基金投資爐心股份及聯合再生很清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2998.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3020.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
你要去調查國發基金有沒有不當管理投資這是這個調查委員的本質是但是您調的那些資料我們委員會調的那些資料沒有講到爐心跟聯合再生但是您今天要求報告的題目內容指明了爐心跟聯合再生那這裡面很清楚嘛我們立法院職權行使法第四之二第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3021.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3041.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
他說判決確定前之訴訟案件就其偵查或審判所為之處置及其卷證立法院不得行使調查職權那麼其他的依法應獨立行使職權之機關本與職權調查中案件一同現在調查中處理職權調查中的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3042.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3069.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
聯合再生目前是由監察院糾正我們正在調查當中那目前盧興他在制裁法案他在11年也有一個商訴至第18號的案件審理中台北地院11年他也是有個一審判決這些都告訴我們這兩個案件一個在司法審判審理中一個是在監察院的糾正調查當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3070.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3097.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那如果說您今天的標題是就我們上次這個本委員會上次所調閱的這些資料這一二三四四大點資料您說要從這裡面我們要來瞭解哪些不當投資那這還沒有抵觸到地法院職權刑事法第四六條之二的第二項但是你直接點名了爐心跟聯合再生那你如何去說明我們這些案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3098.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3106.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
哪些內容是不是監察院是不是司法調查機關他曾經調閱的案件你說沒有錯啊這放在502啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3111.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3133.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
連銀本啊 這個都是一樣的所以呢 當你特別指涉講爐心跟聯合再生的時候你就要適正啊 去說明今天你為何可以繞過46之二第二項你對於一個司法審理當中跟一個監察院糾正當中的案件我們本委員會如何來進行調查權 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3137.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3164.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
所以剛剛本席就很清楚跟你問嘛調閱的文件是哪四項很清楚啊那四項啊這四項文件當中都是針對國發基金啊有針對蘆星嗎有針對聯合再生嗎所以當時雖然縱使用表決通過上不發生立即抵觸46之2第二項的問題但是你今天的會議開會你就直接要求國發會來報告蘆星跟聯合再生那你要調查他們這兩個公司的什麼內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3166.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3179.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
至不至於違反立執法所規定這四項說明啊你不說明那就調查啦來 你問完了嘛來 我先回答鍾嘉斌委員的問題那吳志耀委員請稍後因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3180.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3205.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我們在處理問題的時候我們在處理問題的時候把層次分清楚這樣比較不會混第一個事情是說我剛之所以說如果大家有下去看裡面的文件的話就會了解那裡面調閱的範圍的內容完全都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3206.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3223.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
真審當中的案件也沒有真審當中的資料這個一定要把它講清楚啦因為我必須要幫我們國發會還有國發基金的同仁講話他們都非常的奉公守法嘛怎麼會把不可以提供的資料提供給本調查委員會呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3224.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3241.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那我剛剛用似乎這兩個字有委員抗議說我怎麼可以用似乎不是很確定大家是不是有去看那所以呢我就特別剛剛請了惠夫同仁下去把我們目前資料層列處查閱人員登記簿 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3244.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3262.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
的資料拿來了因為有委員要進去這個會議室裡面查閱任何資料我們問的不是事故是不是事實是你說的事故的這個是陳述啊跟我們要問的本題無關我們的本題是今天的報告事項當中要求報告如心跟聯絡戰聲跟我們502所呈現的資料有什麼關聯 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3268.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3291.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我們不是要質疑說這些資料當中有違反在射送當中的文件不是這個意思我要問的是說你為什麼剛剛的這些內容會變成這兩個公司先停一下我一樣一樣就回答嘛剛剛有委員說用市府這兩個字就不是很恰當所以我才特別請他們把登記簿拿來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3292.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3303.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那我看完了以後,現在不是失誤,是確實就沒有去看確實就沒有去看上面非常多人都沒有去看啊我上面只要看查閱委的簽名就知道了 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3315.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3331.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
從頭到尾去查閱的就是只有我一個人啊對啊 所以你們其他人都沒有去看我從頭到尾都沒有說錯啊我從頭到尾都沒有說錯啊問的是資料跟盧溫馨跟林鄭什麼關係哎喲 每天都這樣亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3341.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3368.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那這似乎就是保留大家的面子嘛開會就是你提出一點主席才必須要說明就這樣子嘛你要提問題要不然人家說開會的時候就這樣你們也要講的講東講西有什麼好講的他答覆的非常清楚啦謝謝謝謝不好意思非常感謝各位委員那第二個是在下面調閱所有的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3370.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3395.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
涉及到的就是兩個問題第一個當初投資的決策第二個以及投資以後的管理第三個是事故的作業跟評估我再強調一次大家下去看就會知道只有這三樣資料第一個投資的決策第二個投資以後的管理第三個事故以後的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3396.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3417.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
至於剛剛你們所講的 什麼偵審當中的資料裡面完全都沒有 完全都沒有第二個部分 那剛剛也有委員吹詢那為什麼是針對有關於第五十二條 所有去看過的人不得已對你看過的任何東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3419.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3431.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
調閱調查調閱內容處理情形予以揭露你剛剛去你看過了然後你揭露了裡面的什麼東西然後告訴我們那些沒有司法真相你已經違反立法院職權刑事法第52條你自己知道嗎你看過的東西你就不能講欸開什麼玩笑 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3436.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3452.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
沒有啦 我絕對立法院職權行使法的解釋我等一下再回覆嘛但是我現在 你又大罵官啊 你又解釋啊我現在還在回覆總委員嘉賓所提出來的問題我是謙虛 因為你現在說的 你會違法沒有關係 那你如果覺得我違法歡迎你去台北地檢署告發 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3453.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3470.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
好那我現在就繼續把話給講下去嗎是是是等一下就歡迎你直接去告發第二個部分剛剛中委會說那為什麼今天挑盧欣跟聯合再撐我要跟大家報告的事情是 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3471.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3493.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我們今天在調查的範圍是從105年起投資的事業105年起投資的事業總共下面的公司序號我跟大家說裡面下面公司序號總共有37個公司37個公司的內容都在下面 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3495.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3523.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
這37個公司的資料我在利用過去這兩個月可以調閱的時間當中我都去看了我看完了以後發現裡面的資料量非常非常的大非常非常的大因為這個調查委員會我們最後是要出調查報告的是要出調查報告今天只是先就之前大家討論比較多的兩家公司排第一次的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3523.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3543.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
因為後面包括很多其他的公司所謂包括很多其他的公司全部都在調閱範圍之內的包括了有關台山水牛的包括了有關造園公司的包括有關KK Day的包括有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3547.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3565.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那一家公司稍微等我一下因為那家公司的名稱比較拗口一點佳樂再生公司的這些公司我們都會依序都會依序讓國發基金他們有說明的機會因為我們在出最後的調查報告以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3566.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3582.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
不好意思我先把問題給回答完因為這個講的事情我們當時在院會在通過這個不當調查委員會的時候就已經說要特定範圍你講的這樣等於是沒有特定有啊剛剛我不是跟各位委員講 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3583.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3604.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
37家這就沒有特定了啊你說不當投資你要應該要先設定哪幾家是不當投資然後才可以去去查這家公司的資料因為你剛剛念了這麼多公司這些公司你沒有設定他不當投資你就先把他叫來看然後看了後我再去找問題再去說他是不當投資所以我一開始就 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3606.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3627.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
呃在我們院會處理的時候我就說4至585號你要成立調查委員會你必須要有一個特定事項就是你主席你剛剛講的叫做包山包海這37家好你認定爐心你認定人和在心是屬於不當投資那應該就把在我們的這一個審查的委員會結果你剛剛講的就是你先你先劃拔 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3628.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3645.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
再射箭你把37家找來然後你再去找這邊那你這樣的話你就完全違法這個四字五八五號啊完全沒有特定啊我覺得這是一個前提問題我再跟那個蔡委員一語說明一下第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3647.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3656.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
這個調查委員會要調查的是是不是有不當投資如果我已經說我們一開始就在討論不當投資的範圍要確定不當投資的範圍要先請你去看當初院會我們提案的內容提案的內容是說是否有不當投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3666.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3690.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
是否不當投資這件事情你要先說好人家那你不是檢察官啊我們這裡也不是檢察官我們怎麼可以把一個原本是正常的公司結果你就去翻他的資料去看這些公司的資料我覺得我們不是檢察官立法委員權利不可以摸到直接手去摸人家的私人企業所以我們現在並沒有要進行任何的刑事調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3691.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3718.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
刑事調查但是你剛剛就在說我接下來要查台山我要查什麼KK什麼這些公司這些公司到底有沒有不當投資這件事情還沒有成立是就是這個調查委員會要調查的事項啊那是我們調查你怎麼可以先假設他有不當投資然後去拿他的資料對嘛所以我想你對法律的人權這件事情你應該有一個基本的概念吧是那請問現在侵犯到誰的人權這些企業啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3722.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3730.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
就是他除了蘆星跟人和再生是我們非常明顯特定的一個標的之外剩下的公司你要怎麼說他有不當投資呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3732.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3756.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
我必須要再跟蔡委員講過有沒有不當投資這件事情我們不會先設建再劃把倒不是剛剛你所講的先劃把再設建我們不會先設建再劃把那因此當然要經過調查委員會調查的程序才有辦法做認定嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3756.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3780.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那在這樣的情況之下剛剛您所垂詢的事項我再跟您報告一次喔這37家公司的資料是依照我們的決議我們給了國發會跟國發基金了以後他們所提供的資料這37家的公司我們當初在通過這個決議都已經把它特定出來特定完了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3781.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3805.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我在過去這兩個月我下去看我看了的確有很多公司沒有問題沒有問題我就不會排他們報告但看了以後有疑問的就要請他們做報告這個才是調查委員會我們沒有預設任何立場應該有的進行方式啊我如果說今天就已經認定了他有不當投資的話那那個才是先設建再劃吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3806.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3826.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
這個是調查委員會我們在進行的時候就是要去評估他有沒有涉及到不當投資有沒有涉及在投資了以後國發基金該好好管理卻沒有管理以及在相關的事股作業上是不是有問題這一些我們這個委員會這一些跟實施司法我一開始就在特定是爐心這點很改善37家公司的名單都在這邊怎麼會沒特定呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3836.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3853.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這個是你後來請他們去把105年請他們把有參與投資的對你就等於把他們有參與投資的都先把它做了一個叫做不當投資然後就把這些資料把它拿過來我還是要再說一次啊本調查委員的目的是就是否有不當投資要進行調查所以怎麼會 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3859.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3872.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
如同蔡委員所講的那個才是先設建再劃拔是否有沒有不當投資這件事怎麼會由我們調查委員來決定呢如果公司的股票跌了就是不當投資那你要怎麼認定是不當投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3876.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3889.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
是不是有不當投資這件事情請容我說明一下國發基金拿納稅人的錢去做投資是不是有涉及到不當投資的這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3890.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3918.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
但是不是你說的算啊也不是我們委員會可以去認出所以我到現在都還沒有做結論啊我們是立法委員我們沒有調查權去說他是不當投資那你現在要特定說因為現在盧鑫跟聯合再生有這樣的高度爭議現在我們的議題應該要限縮在這兩家公司你怎麼可以擴散出去變37家我從我們在成立這樣的一個調查委員會的時候上個會期我就不斷堅持這一點我們的手不可以直接伸到私人公司上面去 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3919.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3944.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
好 謝謝蔡委員您的詮詢 我有回答了那現在請吳委員私邀謝謝主席我想對於這個立法院要成立這一個所謂國發基金不當投資暨管理失職的調查委員會從成立之初 民進黨團的態度就非常的清楚立法院不要再違憲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3946.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3969.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我們不要去成立一個已經被大法官宣告是違憲的調查委員會從第一次開會我坐在這裡就已經親自的揭示多次黃國昌總召黃國昌召集人您忘了8月6號在憲法法庭您怎麼被黃昭元大法官洗臉的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3970.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3991.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
立法院不能为了调查而调查立法院当然可以有调查权但是它是辅助性的用白话文讲它就是不能为了调查而调查查弊案到底是不是宪法赋予立法院的目的性的权利呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3993.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4011.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那么立法院为了调查而调查之后能做什么是诉诸刑事责任吗还是像监察院一样可以追究弹劾呢这是8月6号黄昭元大法官在透过宪法法庭上对您做出的很多的提示 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4012.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4035.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那第一次在開這個調查委員會之前吳思瑤從頭到尾只堅持一件事情請召集人要講清楚說明白國發基金投資了百所千所的公司從重大投資案到新創投資案到我們現在吳思瑤一直努力的協助這些文化產業的投資案何其之多 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4036.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4053.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
你到底要調查什麼這個委員會到底你想要探知的是什麼那我現在終於狐狸露出尾巴了看出您所說的確實第一階段你優先要查的就是我們多次提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4054.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4075.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
已經有訴訟中的案件以及有監察院調查中的案件也就是如新跟聯合再生狐狸終於露出尾巴了你優先要查的姑且不論你剛剛要列出一個二三十間你後面要來查的有哪些這個階段第一階段你就是鎖定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4077.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4087.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
憲法不允許你現在可以把手伸到檢調機關伸到監察院的職權裡面的這兩間如新跟聯合再生 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4088.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4101.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
這是第一次在這裡開會 我們看到了具體的針對這兩間我就說這就是狐狸露出了尾巴 當初您都不敢承認好 那我再講過來 立法委員有這麼大嗎您剛剛講的 我們就是要查他有沒有不當投資所以來調閱資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4112.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4129.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
立法委員可以針對一個空泛的我甚至不知道你有沒有不當投資我就懷疑然後我就來是不是有不當投資我們就來調你公司的很多東西來這裡立委愛看什麼就看什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4132.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4155.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
502辦公室所陳列的資料我告訴你我們當然不會去我們不會做違憲的立委我們不會做違法的立委我們不會縱容自己成為凌駕檢調機關 凌駕司法凌駕監察院的這種太上立委我們當然不會去看因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4156.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4178.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
我們去看就成了共犯啦 違憲的共犯啦講回來 立委可以為了一個空犯你的想像 你的妄想是不是有不當投資我們先來調一團團股資料來看看您剛剛講因為國發基金投資的就是民脂民膏所以立委有權力查 那你就去質詢的時候好好質詢啊我可以舉個例子啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4181.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4208.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
某某政黨他的政治獻金也來自於民脂民膏啊立法委員可以因為我懷疑他是不是有違法收受政治獻金或是我懷疑他是不是有不當利用政治獻金或是是不是有黨主席把政治獻金放到自己的口袋或者是這個政黨有沒有用自己的黨工用什麼donate然後進到這個政治獻金然後又進到自己的口袋 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4210.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4212.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
然後立法院來成立一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4214.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4240.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
查查的調查委員會你如果針對某一個公司某一件事情就如同我講的監察院現在在查某某政黨的政治獻金是因為有明確被舉發他的違法之處或是涉及違法之處監察院才能啟動調查今天立法委員可以用你自己一個人你的假設你的主觀的假設 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4242.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4256.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我懷疑這幾家公司因為有國發基金的投資可能有不當投資是不是有不當投資不知道所以我們要來查然後把人家公司企業所有的資料都搬來這裡給你看個夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4259.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4277.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
如果這樣那立法院是不是也可以說我懷疑國發基金投資台積電台積電有沒有我們投資當中有不當投資所以要把台積電大大小小的資料搬到立法院502辦公室可能不夠用可能要用大議場 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4278.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4294.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
的空間 才夠你看 才夠你調閱我們可以在一個事實不明確 就奠基於您一個人的想像 甚至是不當的連結入人於罪 然後現在來調資料 來找出喔 對對對 找出對你自己有利 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4300.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4328.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
的說法立法委員不能這樣耶立法委員不能這樣耶我已經多次說了您要了解國發基金對於很多企業的投資是否有政策面的不當這應當到經濟委員會去好好質詢國發基金您也可以利用你們最會砍預算 刪預算 動預算啊如果你有明確認為國發基金對於某間公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4329.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4350.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那投資是不正確的那你可以透過你質詢或者是一決預算或者是修改法律案這是立法委員的職權但立法委員沒有一個可以比照檢調的調查權或是比照監察院的調查權那不是我們的核心權力領域啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4351.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4372.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
立法委員的調查權是輔助性的是輔助性的是輔助性而不是目的性的這已經在憲法法庭黃昭元大法官也好蔡忠貞大法官也好游伯祥大法官也好一再一再一再的打臉了黃國昌委員您現在還要做這個違憲的調查委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4375.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4394.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我還要說您剛剛在回答委員的題目的時候您有說我是要了解國發會呢對於這個投資的決策是什麼或者是對於這個投資後的管理是什麼或者是這個事故之後的投資有沒有得允 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4395.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4417.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這些題目不就是你在經濟委員會質詢的標的嗎我也要提醒喔國發基金就以您現在鎖定的如新跟聯合再生這兩個案子都有檢調在查都有監察院在查其實這兩個案子我們國發基金所佔的我們是小股東你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4418.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4438.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
您知道我們對於如心的投資佔比是股權是多少%嗎對於聯合再生是多少%嗎國發基金分別持有如心公司9.06%持有聯合再生公司6.09%你要求國發基金去介入這個公司的營運嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4442.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4463.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
你是逼著公務員去違法你知道嗎你現在不只逼著這些坐在這裡的在場的不同黨籍的委員逼著你一起去做違憲的共犯你甚至逼著國發會的這些同仁多麼辛苦去找出翻出你說的502辦公室你要他們提供的資料你知道他們多麼辛苦嗎因為他們提供這個提供那個可能都違法違憲你是逼公務人員違法欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4471.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4485.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
你立委你自己要違憲 那是你做的事你逼公務人員違法你知不知道你在502辦公室所調閱的資料這些公務同仁是多麼辛苦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4486.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4506.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
去避免踩到違憲的疑慮我現在講的每一件事情來辯駁沒有關係啊我講的哪一件事情在法律上 在憲法的機制上在公司治理的階段在立法院職權的行使我講的哪一個部分是不正確的 是不正確的呢我們好好來討論一下 不好意思 聰明委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4513.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4514.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我沒有提到你個人喔我沒有提到你個人啊不要說到刪預算 動議刪你們就跳腳不要這樣心虛好嗎我從頭到尾有講到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4538.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4558.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我是說你要行使對於國發會的監督你可以用你的法律的立法你可以用你審查預算的權利你可以用你這些憲法所賦予立委的職權去進行所以不要逼公務同仁違法也不要逼這些立委跟著你違憲我們繼續坐在這裡就是陪你黃國昌一個人做秀啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4565.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4570.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
就是陪你公子讀書啦 請跟中國人發言好嗎?我們可以以為華為公司 柯林不當投資所以我們如果他公司所有的東西搬來 你可以看我們可以這樣嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4570.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4571.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
你看他有這麼大嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4588.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4596.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
國發基金投資如心圖,投資聯合在社會不到10%我們可以要求國發基金去主導他們公司所有的割測,可以這樣嗎?可不可以這樣?這道理要說得清楚啊國發基金不能介入公司的實質經營啊不要逼國發會違法我最後一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4611.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4624.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
如果黃國昌 趙偉 您認為你確實掌有了聯合再生也好 如新也好 新的犯法的事證非常好您不應當包庇或隱匿 直接就去檢調機關 相關機關去舉發 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4628.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4644.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
這是您該做的事 這是您該做的事而不是基於你一個無限想像力的 虛妄的這種假設它可能不當投資 是不是有不當投資專播公司的資料刮刮來 大家看清楚不可以這樣啦 公德力 依法 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4650.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4672.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
不要再違憲我今天講的每個事情我沒有動氣我非常理性的就法理就憲法來跟大家來辯論歡迎來辯論我們的大檢察官吳宗憲一直露出很奇怪的表情沒有關係如果您是捍衛法律人的尊嚴的話您的微笑好像怪怪的好不好謝謝你的微笑謝謝你的微笑 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4673.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4688.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
好謝謝你善意的微笑不是詭異的微笑是善意的微笑所以我們應該好好的我再次說違法的會議違憲的調查委員會真的我們不可以做違憲的立委而民進黨的委員拒絕做違憲的立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4690.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4711.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
好,謝謝吳思耀委員因為裡面假序假意有很多的意見意見表達我們都尊重不過我再次的跟本委員會的委員說明第一個下面不是裡面公司什麼內部營運的資料全部搬來沒有這樣的事情大家只要有去看就會知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4712.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4736.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
國發基金的同仁他們是很守法的他們是很辛苦的要配合您的要求去伸出你想看的東西還是請吳委員尊重一下主席啦因為剛你在發言的時候我似乎都沒有插嘴嘛就讓你盡情的講嘛那不要說你講話的時候我沒插嘴我在講話的時候你就恣意按麥克風插嘴這樣恐怕不好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4737.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4751.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
我還是要再度的說明大家有下去看下面的資料就會知道公務員他們就是依照我們這個委員會以及院會的決議的範圍讓他們提供的文件讓大家去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4752.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4770.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那看完了以後大家也會很清楚的知道這個完全都是在線判製做完了判決了以後所設定的範圍所提供的資料裡面沒有任何跟司法案件相關審理的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4771.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4799.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
大家只要下去看就知道了因為你不能不去看然後又說那裡面有不應該提供的範圍那這樣子我們事實上很難本於事實在事實的基礎上面討論好那我們接下來是不是就可以請那個來請中委員嘉賓謝謝主席主席剛剛到現在的答詢答覆詢問就一個很清楚的完全是基於事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4801.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4829.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
就是從上次委員會透過表決通過決議要求調閱的四大項的資料只有黃昭偉一個人去看過這說明了什麼這似乎說明了這個委員會是黃昭偉一人的興趣委員會因為調的這些資料只有黃昭偉有興趣有時間有意願去查閱這是第一個呢我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4830.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4856.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
接下來要說的是第三點就是結論的建議第二點從剛剛的發言並不是去指涉剛剛那四大項資料當中有違反我們立法院職權行使法透過憲判說這些資料裡面已經有設在審理中的勸忠不是這個意思不是這個意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4856.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4885.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
這些資料之所以列成這四大項就是因為他沒有抵觸這些資料的內容是沒有抵觸我們的憲判制的解釋也沒有抵觸立職法所以列了那四個資料但是為什麼後來那個決議會寫成這樣的一個內容呢請大家回顧一下當時在院會提案的時候是直接提案人直接指名要調查盧鑫跟聯合再審 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4886.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4908.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
就是直接指名盧欣跟聯合再生啊但是因為憲判之後盧欣跟聯合再生他本身一個系屬法院審理當中一個是監察院調查當中都不能成為我們委員會我們本委員會進行調查權 行使調查權的對象所以所以這個提案呢就轉了個彎說是要調查國發會的不當投資好 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4914.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4929.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
不當投資總是要有一個事蹟吧到底是哪些讓我們覺得他有不當投資或許提案人認為發生了爐心的弊案發生了這個聯合再生被這個監察院調查中或許國發基金真的有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4933.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4946.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
基於這樣的一個懷疑通過了要調查四大項資料就是先押人後取供這個吳宗憲召委很清楚就是覺得之前你們家被偷了 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4947.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4968.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
你們家被偷了 現在一個可能涉案人被抓在警察局 要送到法院 一個在做筆錄所以認為管倉庫的人有問題 所以要把管倉庫的人調來把管倉庫所有的進出的記錄都拿出來 看看是不是管倉庫的人沒有管好勾結 堅守 治道 才會發生了可能疑似的竊案 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4969.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4997.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
所以基於爐心跟聯合再生已經依在司法審理中依在監察院調查中都不能成為立法院自宣刑事法的調查人士的對象所以改為要調查國發會是否國發基金管理不當這個已經非常牽強了也是為什麼我們上次在委員會的時候我們認為這個標題你根本沒有辦法說出國發基金哪裡管理不當那個具體是由就是硬是要調查所以框了包山包海框了四大箱資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4998.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5026.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
好了 如果框了這四大項資料呢真的被一人召委興趣看到的有其他的公司有類似還沒有被司法偵辦調查沒有被監察院調查的 有類似的情節你覺得呢 立法院要率先來調查那這個公司 可能的公司是涉及到國發基金不當管理的那你可以把這個公司列出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5027.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5050.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
但是這個公司不應該是李如欣跟聯合再生啊因為只要入國發基金管理上有涉及到如欣跟聯合再生相關的不當他都已經在法院的審理範圍跟監察院的調查範圍所以如果說我們的招委一人只有他一個人有興趣看到這所有資料他真的覺得如欣 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5051.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5071.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
跟李和再生真的有涉及到國發基金的不當管理那應該趕快他把他發現的這些事實送交給正在審理中的司法單位去看一看說不只這個爐心這個爐心呢他上面呢這個國發基金的有些管理不當可能也涉及違法請你們一併調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5073.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5088.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
又或者是認為聯合再生監察院的糾正調查當中你發現不只是這個監察院調查的對象你發現國發基金哪一些公務人員也涉及到可能有組織適當請監察院一併調查不是在這裡我們針對爐心跟聯合再生我們來要求國發基金國發會來報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5097.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5103.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
他如何能報告這兩個案子他要報告說我沒有投資不當我沒有管理不當嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5105.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5133.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
國發基金如果真有管理不當真有在爐心或者說這個案子上設有一些為師那也應該是司法權 司法院傳訊的對象啊怎麼會是我們這個委員會在調查呢所以最後的結論建議主席如果真的您花了那麼多時間只有你一位去看了那四大項國發會所提供的這些資料那你發現除了聯合財政跟爐心之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5133.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5148.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
您發現有類似情節而且不只是涉案公司可能是涉及到國發基金或公務員國發基金會 國發會有管理不當的你就把它拿出來告訴我們可列為我們今天委員會的討論標的也請國發會就您所發現的這些內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5153.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5166.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我反對我們有不同的看法沒關係我講完如果說你認為是這樣那你好歹不能是爐心跟聯合再生我再強調一次我並不見得認為我們待會看的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5168.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5184.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
在502的那些資料502是不是屬於目前我們歷史法當中所限制的資料但是至少不是這兩個案子那我們也尊重其他委員所以表示我們委員對於今天要討論的內容我們有各自的看法那我也是建請主席要了解說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5185.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5202.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
主席不好意思他不是要我說明嗎所以現在是要我說明還是不要我說明所以你是建議我要說明我不一定要說明是嗎因為我也要確定清楚嘛所以現在到底要不要我說明現在是需要我說明還是不要我說明主席我剛剛最後一個是建議建議說我們的標題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5205.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5229.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
可能我們表達重新怕我們的發言被誤會我剛剛說主席不斷地強調我們在華語502的資料當中有屬於例子法限制不能調查的內容我說不是我是說我認為今天的標題不能叫國發會來報告這兩家公司或許主席有發現其他的公司值得我們來了解國發會是有不當管理的這樣子說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5230.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5254.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
所以總委員希望我說明嗎好來先請蔡委員我先講一下就是說主席這是兩個層次的問題第一個層次是爐心跟聯合再生因為這個是一開始我們在成立調查委員會那大家說因為這個有弊案所以你想要去把這個弊案去做發掘然後去說國發基金在投資的時候是否有不但 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5254.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5281.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那我強調就是說在於說我們成立調查委員他本質上立法院的調查權是一個輔助性的權利那輔助什麼就是輔助我們立法委員我們要有法律我們法律案預算案人事同意案那如果說盧興跟聯合再生有涉及到不法好牽扯到要修法牽扯到我們對預算的通過是有意見的 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5282.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5308.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那這兩案就夠了啦就夠我們去行使我們因為這是一個輔助性權利這個權利就夠了我們先不要講這兩個案又有沒有涉及到4至325或791號有另外的問題但是呢我們現在成立了調查委員會後我們卻把所謂調查委員必須要對於特定事項才可以調查這件事你把特定事項放得這麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5310.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5329.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
105年後的投資全部是我們調查委員會假設他不當投資把他假設不當投資後叫他調組了來看主席我跟你說你不要用這麼青睿的態度去面對你現在做的是侵害人權侵害到每一個公司他自己的一個一個營業秘密喔我覺得我們每一個立委你說502你要不然你是用這37間公司我們不可能去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5339.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5356.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
看了就違憲欸怎麼可以這樣主席你看 你在笑 可是你再自己思考一下我們是立法委員欸吳宗憲檢察官 我們不是你像你有檢察官你現在也不是檢察官了你怎麼可以對一個還沒有違法沒有人去舉發他違法不是我們立法委員的職權你就叫他逐條傳播過來我在場我是直接要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5370.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5378.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
盧鑫跟林鄭再生如果這件事在我們不當調查委員會這還有爭議這個資料把它保留剩下35家公司都退回怎麼可以這樣立法委員怎麼可以把我們的調查權輔助性的權利去某人的私人公司這亂搞欸所以蔡委員是基本上是意見的表達嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5399.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5419.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
對那我要說明的事情是我們從院會過了決議那到委員會提供了調閱的範圍那我們的議事同仁也依照委員會所通過調閱的範圍發文給了國發會跟國發基金不是這樣的當時在通過的時候我們都講清楚要有特定事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5420.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5440.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
是特定事項就是說獨行跟銀河再生啊那個請蔡委員再回去看一下院會當初過決議的內容在委員會就調閱的文書的範圍也通過了決議我們依照這個決議主席你要針對你違憲你去侵害人權的事要抓國民黨來背書嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5442.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5461.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
那個蔡委員我尊重你個人的意見發表不好意思我依序回答好我依序回答好嗎因為你們這樣大家搶著麥克風要發言因為我覺得聽起來絕大多數都是個人意見的表達嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5461.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5465.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我再把程序講清楚這是憲法層次 對不起不要評價委員的提案這是憲法層次的問題不能違憲 你說什麼我們是個人幹嘛 個人意見而已嗎那這個委員會就是你個人意見而成立的一人委員會啊一人作秀委員會啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5479.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5503.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
你做這樣子的人身攻擊我是沒辦法接受啦不過沒有關係啦我要再說明的事情是什麼整個程序上院會做了決議委員會做了決議我們的議事同仁依照決議的內容發函給國發會跟國發基金國發會跟國發基金也依照調閱的特定範圍送來了這些公司的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5503.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5523.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那這些公司的資料我也再三的跟各位委員很相似的報告裡面不是什麼這家公司裡面所有營運的資料就沒有這回事只有他們在決定要不要投資的時候的評估資料以及投資了以後他們的管理資料因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5524.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5537.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
國發基金針對每一家公司他們有董事席次的在國發基金每一次他們的董事會要開董事會的時候針對董事會所議決的事項都會請國發基金表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5543.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5567.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
國發基金在每一次董事會旁邊都會有一個審核意見那個審核意見就是他們代表國家的立場派去的董事在針對那一次的議案他們所要表達的意見大概資料就是這些東西那至於說剛剛委員有提到有關於憲判制的 您說的沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5569.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5586.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
不符合憲判制的東西完全在下面的502都沒有提供啊這個是我一而再再而三的說啊所以我很相信我們的國發會跟國發基金的同仁他們的專業去違反憲判制的東西他們怎麼會提供呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5587.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5613.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那至於說還有委員在講說那個什麼監察院調查中跟法院判決審理中這個我覺得可能還是要把話講清楚啦因為有的時候你在發表一些意見的時候如果不是用事實當基礎這樣會沒有討...這樣很難討論第一個聯合再生的部分聯合再生的部分監察院已經調查完也糾正完了是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5618.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5629.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
沒有 都結案了 就結案才會發糾正文啊他一定要先調查 調查完了認為有違司才會發糾正文啊沒有 他還沒有結案喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5631.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5655.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
你可能回去再把你回去再把糾正文看清楚啦如果調查沒有結束就發糾正文那我們的監察院不是違法亂紀嗎先調查調查完了以後才會發糾正文這個順序我先跟大家說明清楚第二個針對有關於爐心的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5656.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5667.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
大家去看一下在盧新的起訴書他涉及到的範圍是什麼他涉及到的範圍是當初依照政交法在公告的併購範圍明明就 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5671.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5691.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
明明就併購的時候明明就應該要有河南的孟爾羅公司結果後來偷偷把它剔除在外那個是違反證券交易法的部分跟這一次我們所在調查的國發基金他們的投資有沒有不當 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5692.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5717.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
以及投資以後的管理有沒有不當是兩件完全不一樣的事情今天不是一個特定的公司他有因為特定的案件而射送那不管他射送的範圍其他通通跟射送範圍沒有關係的全部因為這家公司射送所以其他跟射送範圍沒有關係的全部都不在調查的範圍之內全部都在違憲的範圍之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5719.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5745.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我想恐怕這客觀的事實還是要做說明那最後我還是要澄清一點就是說所有的資料調閱來了以後大家都可以按照規定去調閱那我也是按照規定去調閱其中的一個委員那至於說其他的委員認為有沒有調閱的必要這個我都尊重我一點意見都沒有就好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5747.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5760.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
之前2013年的時候立法院那個時候針對是不是有非法關說是不是有違法監聽成立調閱委員會的時候那個時候我雖然還不是立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5761.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5782.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
但我那個時候是院外由立法院請的調閱委員之一等於是院外委員那個時候我在中央研究院服務那個調閱委員會的文件我真的有去看因為我受立法院的委託我就很負責任去看我看了一個禮拜結果當初成立那些調閱委員會的委員都沒有人去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5785.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5811.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那當時我也不會去質疑啊質疑說難不成2013年的時候成立那個吊躍委員會而且還是民主進步黨的委員提案成立的是為了讓院外的黃國昌作秀所以才成立這個吊躍委員會所以我覺得你有沒有去看這件事情在邏輯的鋪陳上面啊恐怕這樣子說不是很恰當OK 好 那我們最後再請吳委員施養 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5815.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5841.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
再細究一下昭緯這裡所發的調閱文件跟資料的四大點的範圍第一點是行政院國發基金對於美國105年起所投資的直接投資組合中的重要新興事業當中的歷年持股比例變化歷年投資金額歷年供股的代表名單歷年投資績效與虧損情形這是第一大項 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5842.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5860.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
第二項國發基金對於民國15年起所投資的直接投資組合中央信息業所評選所召開的所有會議的會議記錄會議簽到等等這是第二項第三個您要的是國發基金召開的市股政策評估會議的記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5863.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5882.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
會議資料 簽到表最後一項呢 您所知的是調閱的是國發基金和國發基金管理委員會呢105年起所投資的這些東西的所有往來的韓文範圍非常多 非常大容我提醒一下黃國昌 昭偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5885.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5895.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
剛剛我們為什麼一直在講大法官解釋585號以及這次憲判第9號所有的內容因為他一再的提示了我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5896.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5917.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
委员可以有调查权立法委员可以有调查权但它是辅助性的权利而不是目的性的权利这就是立法委员不是为了查弊为了调查而调查你所行使的调查权必须回应在你审预算的参照或者是你审法案的时候你所要来参照或者是参考 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5918.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5940.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
所以容我提醒您黃國昌委員您在這個院會成立這個委員會的時候您確實第一次的時候你並沒有照大法官解釋輔助性權利的部分找出一個你要修法的標的後來在院會成立委員會的時候很好你知道不怕幫了所以你去周出了一個呢你是為了要修這個產創條例30條你是為了修產創條例30條這個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5947.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5960.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
所以你要調閱這些東西大家想想它的關聯性就您所提的你要修的產創條例30條的第一項您是要修第五款 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5961.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5979.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
第五款您要修的文字是說前項國發基金之運用不得用於三項情形這是您想要修法的第一個企業虧損之紓困第二個投資主要生產活動位於中國大陸的企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5980.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6004.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
第三個投資過去三年違反環保勞工食安等法律而且擒諜重大之法律你是為了要修你這三個產創條例第30條的第一項的第五款的後面的這三點你的增修條文那你是為了就這三個增修條文你去調了剛剛我花了一些時間附送了你你去調閱的這四大類的資料有沒有大炮打小鳥 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6011.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6036.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
有沒有包山包海不符合比例原則我也不曉得你調了這些資料對於你修這個法的直接關係在哪裡我可以直接的告訴黃國昌委員就您修的這產創條例30條如果在經濟委員會排審的時候我們可以好好充分的來討論您說國發基金呢不要來投資於主要生產活動在中國大陸的企業我絕對支持啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6038.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6044.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這個不用調如新不用調聯合再生這麼多資料我就告訴你多數委員會支持國民黨委員支不支持我不知道我們會支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6047.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6075.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
你的第三項呢過去三年違反重大的什麼食安勞安這些東西我告訴你我也會支持的但是你的第一點說國發基金用於只要是企業虧損之疏困就不能用這一點要好好討論國發基金本身它的存在不是為了獲益它是為了扶植很多很多的新創很多很多的重要新興產業所以它背負的政策的任務不必然就是一定要盈餘盈餘盈利盈利 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6076.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6085.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
所以說您的修法的這一點不能投資於企業虧損之紓困這一點我覺得容我們來討論像瓊英姐是經濟委員會這麼資深的召委我們都可以好好來討論所以說你調的這些公司跟你要修的這個法你的輔助性的權利你修的這個法我們可以直接在經濟委員會排審了然後你去搞這麼龜縮皮我就從頭到尾指示這個大家心知肚明啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6106.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6128.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
你就是對於這些東西 你有你個人的想像 你覺得你要查他 你要查他 那這樣立法委員 我要修政治獻金法我可以把民眾黨所有政治獻金的資料 要求你送到立法院來嗎我為了要修政治獻金法 我也可以把國民黨民進黨所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6129.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6158.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
政治獻金所有的名目我不知道他有沒有違法喔我是為了要修政治獻金法我把全部的都調來看看來看看他有沒有違法或者是來看看有什麼東西線索來提供我修法的參考我們權力沒有這麼大我們權力沒有這麼大然後回到剛剛我要糾正一下昭緯喔對於聯合再生案喔您直接上監察院的網站就看得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6159.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6184.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
他确实是做出了纠正案文但是呢他的案件状态案件状态冒号尚未结案他的案件状态尚未结案他的案件状态尚未结案Google一下就能够知道所以劳烦您这个部分请再慎重好吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6186.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6211.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那個前面的說明我想應該都很清楚啦這個當初可能大家把時間序列搞清楚就知道產狀條例的修正案我是先送的送完了以後才提案要成立這個調查委員會這客觀的事實不用不用去爭執第二個剛剛吳委員私謠所講冒號三維結案我會說明一下你可能對於監察院的運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6213.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6235.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
可能有一些誤會我沒有誤會喔這是網站上的資料所以嘛網站上為什麼寫三位結案我沒有誤會喔對 我說明一下因為當他們對行政機關提出糾正的時候行政機關必須要針對糾正要改善改善的狀況要函附在還沒有函附以前都沒有結案 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6237.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6246.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
所以我講尚未結案你是被我抓到了我就告訴你他就尚未結案啊那個不是調查還沒有結束調查已經結束了調查已經結束了只是你的認知跟我們的認知不一樣你不能說別人搞不清楚狀況嗎是你才搞不清楚狀況吧剛剛你在講話的時候我都沒有插嘴 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6259.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6287.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
沒有我靜靜的聽你講完那你要我回覆所以我就回我就回覆你三位結案是什麼意思嘛他的監察院的調查調查終結了沒有調查終結啦就是調查終結才會出糾正啊那糾正完以後上面為什麼寫三位結案很簡單嘛因為針對他所糾正的內容行政機關還沒有處理完畢還沒有函附嘛這個是所謂三位糾正內容並不是這件事情監察院的調查還沒有終結 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6289.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6291.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
監察院調查沒有終結怎麼會出糾正文 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6293.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6320.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
好我剛剛其實很尊重各位委員大家發言的空間跟時間都讓大家暢所欲言那剛剛也說明的非常清楚了這個調查委員會是為了要修產狀條例是不是有這樣子的狀況我們輔助性的權利所成立的調查委員會那目前國發會國發基金他們所提供的資料也符合我們調閱 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6321.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6331.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
的範圍那剛剛各位委員在說明的內容沒有關係那個蔡宇委員剛發言你的發言啊我們都有會議紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6336.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6354.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
是我們上次在調閱範圍的時候其實民進黨的委員針對調閱的範圍上次在開會的時候也都表達過意見了在立法院公報裡面也都清楚的記載了那但是我們做了決議發了函請他們提供資料他們也提供資料了 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6355.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6369.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那蔡英文委員剛剛又發言反對我相信不僅是全程直播啦在立法院公報都會詳實的把每位委員的意見把它記錄下來好 我們現在是不是有請是不是請國發會的主委 劉主委來報告這個會的委員會要報告什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6375.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6387.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這是違法的會議要報告什麼?是 那個上次你也表達過這樣的意見是不是顯尊重主席的意識主持你拿這個違法的會議要報告什麼?對啊 這個會議是不是違法恐怕也不是王委員自己決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6389.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6414.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
是不是可以尊重主席的意識主持這個會議就違法了要報告什麼這個會議是不是違法恐怕也不是王委員一個人說了算這個事情我們上次都討論過了也做了決議了所以國發基金才會送這些資料過來那今天我們國發會的委員國發基金的同仁都到這邊了那你總是要給人家有說明的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6417.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6439.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
是來請中委員嘉賓那個看起來召委召開這個會議這樣一路下來我的聚焦始終就是說報告內容涉及爐心跟聯合再生這個我們在之前完全沒辦法產生出這兩家公司是 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6441.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6460.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
國發基金不當管理的主要標的我們現在產生不出來這兩點那如果國發會他要就整個基金的管理要做就是通則性的說明還是可以針對蘆星跟聯合再生因為我真的很擔心啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6462.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6479.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
剛剛為了聯合再生剛剛我們的資料說是不是在糾正糾正完了之後呢監察院是不是還要行政機關函附如果說今天監察院對於聯合再生有發函糾正那麼也要行政機關函附那今天等於是我們在國發會針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6482.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6504.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
監察院的糾正之前我們請國發會就他們國發經驗的管理來跟立法院報告這當然我覺得還是有點風險啦那至於說如果國發會裡面所針對的爐心案因為還有一個案件在審理中我也不清楚會不會講出現在所謂法院審理當中所必要的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6506.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6510.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
所以我是覺得今天這個標題剛剛有委員認為是違法會議不過我認為限縮在這個標題的內容要請國發會來報告那這裡面針對爐心跟聯合再生我覺得這個標題的內容應該委員會我們並沒有同意當然了 招委可以排議程 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6529.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6552.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
好 招委可以排議程的標題啦但我覺得這標題的標的要報告的標的呢應該委員會要有一個共識到底像我跟蔡委員我好像有點不太一樣他是就資料的部分只能留聯合再生跟盧興我說的不是資料 我說的是我們今天要國發會來報告的標的不能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6553.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6573.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
指定是盧興跟聯合再生因為我不清楚為什麼要他就這兩個案子來報告所以我自己說對主席提出一個質疑就整市報告的主題是否包含是否專指聯合再生跟盧興是不是應就我們本委員會做一個詢問以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6574.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6594.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
好 那個回答中委員嘉賓的詢問這一次調查委員會調查的範圍是從2016年以後直接投資的公司沒有包山包海 沒有上百家 沒有上千家就只有是是是 那個就讓我回答問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6597.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6615.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
不好意思喔真的你們在講話的時候其實我都沒有插嘴不管我贊成不贊成我也都是很尊重各位委員的發言嘛我讓你把意見表達完了那你說的是對或是不對沒有關係社會大眾大家都可以共同的評價因為立法院公報都還是會做足字稿嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6615.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6635.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那我只是要回覆的事情是說因為這一次符合調查範圍在2016年以後的公司直接投資的公司是37家我也跟各位委員報告了37家的資訊量非常的大所以我會依序的排我會依序的排主席我反對37家資訊量非常大這些資訊我們不可以去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6643.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6661.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
怎麼可以這樣 一續的排他們公司有什麼問題嗎而且你為了修產創條例30條一個條文的第五項你為了修一個條文可以這樣去調三十幾家公司的資料喔這大炮打小鳥嘛你的修法大家可以直接經濟委員會審法案的時候來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6663.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6680.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
你的目的跟手段這實在太過檔了真的太過檔了一個財窗條例30條我們可以好好來就修法的部分來討論嘛對不對經濟委員會的召委要不要排行審查這件事情我百分之百的尊重啦也不是我可以智慧的 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6681.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6697.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那我們現在成立的這個你如果真的關心你的法案被審查快速審查你應當會去請經濟委員會的委員幫助你排案這應當是如果你真的在乎產創條例30條的修法的話你應當會這樣做我們任何一個自己推出修法的委員我們都會這樣子用我們在乎的法案趕快去請求該委員會來排案 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6702.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6715.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
對不對 審查 應當是這樣可是您好像沒有 您就放著那個條文在那裡沒審沒關係 然後繼續讓你有個理由然後來掉兩家不夠 再掉37家這個目的跟手段是不是過當 社會看得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6721.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6748.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
是 社會看得非常的清楚我再說明一次經濟委員會的委員他們要排案法案的審查我尊重經濟委員會的召委當然我有去拜託人家排不排不是我可以自會的但是這個跟我們依照立法院職權刑事法憲判制以及院會以後的決議所成立的調查委員會是兩件不一樣的事情主席我就是經濟委員會的召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6749.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6754.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
你沒有跟我拜託啦那我也可以說我也可以排你要的這個產算條例的條文但是呢你不可以去查你這個爐心跟聯合再生之外的公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6762.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6781.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
這是我身為經濟委員會我認為對於這樣的民間企業我認為我有這個義務要對這些事情講清楚這樣的公司他們沒有違法為什麼我們立法委員可以去把他們公司他們的營運翻增國發基金投資他們當時的評估的內容我們可以把它拿來看除非你說它有違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6785.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6813.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
你有具體有人告發那我們在另外在院會大家再討論再針對哪一家公司某某某公司我們再來調查在另外的調查你怎麼可以這樣包山包海啊你都說我好我後一屆我就要查對一間啊還預告再下一次我還要排哪一間不斷預告那你用105年那也可以用啊從國發會成立之後為什麼要設定105莫名其妙啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6814.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6836.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
這個是院會已經通過決議的事項跟各個委員做報告院會沒有講105年後所有的所有投資組合的重要新興事業都是調查事項院會沒有這樣通過請不要亂講來我跟大家說明一下在立法院公報113卷第98期院會紀錄從57頁到58頁院會通過的文字剛剛蔡委員一語說院會沒有這樣通過請容我再說明一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6844.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6861.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
登載在立法院公報113卷第98期的院會紀錄第57頁到第58頁院會通過的範圍的內容在立法院公報白紙黑字寫得非常的清楚就是105年以後所直接投資的公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6863.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6876.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
這個是院會所通過的事項所以就是拉國民黨來背書啊 可以這樣嗎人家是民間議員 當時民間主委我站在我民間前顧 我有驚愈 他沒有驚愈曹民兄 你覺得這樣不行嗎我有舉手 舉手 舉手義士背書 我來聽了那麼久 我們今天的會議程序就要仔細採寫我告訴你 需要停止討論 不然我聽了這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6890.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6909.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我是很不客氣的講,我們這裡都是台大法律師,我可以跟你說是主法、玩法、違法,但是他又不犯法,我聽到尾巴就是這樣。所以我對法律師治國我沒有信心啦,那我是指張停止討論,會議的進行就要進行,不然扁扁玩啦,廢話怎麼這樣在開。 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6914.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6914.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
好 謝謝陳昌明委員的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6929.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6934.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
10票就是輸啦 何必這麼獎勵看我們的立體党调查 我不是這樣講好不好 這個原則討論必須開會 好不好好 我聽不完 聽不完 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6947.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6962.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我們可以去釣戰天蝦嗎?我們可以去釣他們兩間公司的資料在這裡看嗎?你們也能去釣戰天蝦嗎?那是什麼違法的事情?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情嗎?那是違法的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6973.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6987.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我們法律的人啊 常常是最不公平的啦利用你們的專業法律知識 但假如蔣東也是你們的蔣西也是你們的 蔣天上蔣地下都是你們的我跟趙薇如律師來競爭 失禮失禮失禮 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6993.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7020.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
好 謝謝各位委員那各位委員我相信程序上面的事項的垂詢跟意見我們開會到現在快一個小時了大家也都充分表達了那我現在有收到一個書面由鍾嘉斌委員 吳思堯委員 蔡議員 王毅川委員所提出來的一個書面的動議那案由是今日報告事項主標題除去如新 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7021.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7029.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
股份有限公司及聯合再生有限公司欸聯合再生應該是股份有限公司不是有限公司所以你要不要改 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7032.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7056.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
不是股份拿掉,是你股份兩個字要加上去吧對,它這裡就寫,你們的標語就這樣寫是聯合再生有限公司等字樣,這樣是不是對它的說明是抵觸立法院職權刑事法的規定好,那針對請問那個提案人的這個提案認為報告事項要除去這些字樣請問在場各位有沒有意見支持啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7061.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7074.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那如果有意見的話,那我們就贊成這個議案的請舉手剛剛已經討論了一個小時了提案委員要不要講一下提案委員要不要講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7077.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7098.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
因為剛剛你講的是權益問題啊我們應該是針對今天的主題你上次的議事錄都已經確認了啊因為剛剛鍾嘉賓委員您的發言就已經把這裡的意見表達得非常清楚嘛那你現在提出程序上的動議,那我就要來處理這個程序上的動議嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7099.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7116.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那所以說啊 因為剛剛沒有提案在場啊對呀 對於這個程序上面的動議 請問在場的委員有無異議這個不是程序上的動議耶那請問這不是程序上的動議的話這是今天的報告事項那如果這不是程序上的動議 那我就不處理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7120.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7149.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
我們改標題呢對啊所以你今天的案有事今天報告事項要除去這些字樣嘛是那針對這些我剛剛詢問了在場的委員有沒有異議大家有異議嘛那既然有異議那我現在就依照議事規則處理啊對啊我完全按照議事規則在你送書面的動議我也收了我問大家有沒有異議大家有異議那我們就來處理嘛朱熹 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7151.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7164.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
這個調查委員會從設立到現在你們就是用人數 政黨比例的人數設定了一個民進黨走腳走手也是輸啦所以沒關係 主席要依這個會議程序處理不過一開始你們的設定就是民眾黨跟國民黨就是贏所以我會通過這個主題跟上次調閱的這些範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7181.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7193.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我只是要執行這件事每次就是這樣就是沒有要討論就不要管OK好來謝謝謝謝各位委員那針對鍾嘉斌委員所提議贊成的請舉手好四位委員贊成反對的請舉手五位委員四位贊成五位反對鍾嘉斌委員的提議不通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7209.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7211.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那我們接下來是不是請國發會的主委來報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7213.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7233.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
來 有請主委但主席這就涉及了我們的提案就是彰顯我們對於今天這個會議的內容很重要的一個本質上的不同了解 這個都已經會記載在立法院公報上你這樣的 吳東憲不要急著拍手只會表決贏就拍手我覺得這種違法違憲的會議然後要逼公務人員跟著你違法違憲這實在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7239.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7242.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
沒有看過這種立法院啦我們不會違法違憲的會議背書啦我們真的不會違法違憲的會議背書啦不會違法違憲的調查來背書啦辛苦了你們國發會同仁要被逼著違法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7255.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7266.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
要被逼迫回法,我不知道辛苦了沒有意思喔,我是會議主席,你表達完你的意見在立法院公報裡面都會記載請劉主任委員進行報告好,謝謝,來請劉主任委員來,請劉主任委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7286.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7300.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這個我想要抱歉一下,因為我們黨團認為這是一個違法的會議你們黨團在講什麼話?你今天來這邊叫你們黨團講什麼話?我要提醒一下國發會的主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7306.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7328.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
是中華民國行政院國家發展委員會的委員不是民主進步黨國家發展委員會的委員這個是第一件事情這個是第一件事情那個蔡議員對不起請你尊重請你尊重我的會議主持現在我正在講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7330.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7356.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我主持我都讓大家好好講話你現在也在兇我我在兇你什麼你現在也在兇我全程全程都在轉播我剛剛我剛剛是請國發會的主委我跟您說您今天我們發開會通知請你來列席說明你也給了書面報告這個書面報告應該是國發會給的吧是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7360.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7382.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那這個國發會給的書面報告我現在給您機會是請您針對你們國發會給的報告來進行說明今天國發會我必須要跟劉主委講再提醒一次您是中華民國行政院國家發展委員會的主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7384.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7410.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
不是民進黨黨團的主委所以您剛剛講的那個話我了解啦你可能是一時口誤那也請那個吳宗憲委員是報告主席如果他說口誤我絕對可以接受我也常常口誤但是我們不能接受在民主國家黨國不分的概念放在裡面當年民進黨就是痛恨國民黨的黨國不分那我也非常認同民進黨的這個觀念 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7410.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7429.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
所以我沒有辦法接受有任何黨國不分的說法那如果說他說是口誤我完全接受以上是不是先請那個國發會的主委針對你們今天所提出來的書面報告因為我看你們書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7432.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7451.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
還把針對國發基金投資這個公司的依據然後以及投資它原有的說明後面的監督管理的作為然後投資機制的改革你們連投資機制的改革都已經寫出來了是不是可以先請主委來報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7453.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7474.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
好 我在這邊報告我想請主席也允許我讓這裡可以講真話那個主委是不是可以上來台上這樣子我們立法院轉播系統大家才清楚這樣關心這個會議的同仁才可以清楚的聽到您表達的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7476.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7494.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我在這裡也請求主席能夠讓我們把國發會跟國發基金內心話也能夠講出來因為您這邊一直要求我們要講真話那我想得到主席的同意我們報告的同時也表達我們對這個事情的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7497.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7511.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
是不是主席可以允許我們我現在我跟主委先說明一下我們目前整個會議的議程就是按照立法院職權行事法立法院的議事規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7513.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7527.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我們就是按照這個程序在進行的之前發開會通知給你們的時候為了擔心說開會的通知太短你如果還記得的話本來應該上禮拜三這個委員會下午就要開會了 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7528.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7547.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
但是後來我們這個管理委員會的議事同仁跟我講說我們因為作業的關係所以到上個禮拜一才發開會通知然後怕到禮拜三給你們時間太短我還特地改期喔改到這個禮拜一的下午 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7548.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7565.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
等於是我要給你們充分的時間我要給你們充分的時間在給你們充分的時間的情況之下然後才今天排這個報告之前也發了會議通知請你們提書面資料你們也把書面資料給提了 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7566.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7583.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那現在整個會議議程的進行是到要請你針對你們今天所提出來的報告來進行說明這樣子的議事規則我希望主委能夠理解我其實啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7584.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7602.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
為了要讓你們有充分的時間可以準備我還特地的把會議的時間本來是上個禮拜三要開然後延到這個禮拜一的下午我相信這中間的過程你們在會議通知上面都可以清楚的反映出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7603.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7613.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那我現在就進入按照會議的議程進入國發會主委您口頭報告的時間那是不是可以請國發會的主委來進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7622.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7639.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
好 那我就謝謝主席還有各位先進委員的大家好我就針對今天我們國發基金投資爐心及聯合再生決策與監督的作為過程進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7641.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7666.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
而國發基金投資如新與編合再生的法源依據是來在於產狀條例第29條加速產業創新加值促進經濟轉型及國家發展而設立同時在國發基金在105年的7月修訂了產業創新轉型基金作業要點當時就本人了解是基於很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7668.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7692.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
這個認真經營的公司遇到了一定的困難希望國家能夠再提供一個可以紓困跟轉型的一個協助轉型的一個機會而設立這樣的一個轉型基金當時匡列了一千億元辦理產業創新轉型基金那這個基金的目的是投資於有創新轉型需求之企業且不以財務獲利為目的而設立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7695.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7706.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
所以這個基金在成立的過程中主要是希望透過與民間的合作協助國內企業合併、收購、分割及其他有助於企業創新轉型之投資計畫那針對盧興公司當時 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7711.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7730.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
盧興公司依據這個條例申請了創新轉型的基金當時盧興公司主張他要併購香港的酒地公司期望能夠成為牛仔褲全球最大的代工廠商並為知名的品牌Levis提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7733.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7755.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
提供主要供應商及導入自動化環保製程辦理現金增資130.2億並於106年4月減送向金管會申請生效公開說明書申請國發基金投資14.88億但是在申請的過程中被金管會推薦金管會認為當時的投資價金 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7758.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7786.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
並沒有明確的評估後來由會計事務所提供評估也被推薦因為呢當時只有一個評估方法之後再由當時的會計事務所補辦的這個整個的評估計畫然後呢認定3.8億美金是認為這是合理價金那本會呢基於這個部分得到這個資料以後呢經過今晚會已經同意的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7787.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7809.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
該公司來向本會來申請本會也派請了也委託了會計事務所那雙方所找的會計事務所都是全球四大會計事務所那所以呢我們的會計事務所也要依據當時會計事務所的這個出具的調查報告進行二次評估那這個評估之後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7811.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7830 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
認定合理以後進到了我們的三段式評估第一個是跨部會的政策評估會這個是由跨部會組成的一個評估這個評估認同它符合國家發展這個政策創新轉型政策之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7830.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7853.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
通過以後經過投審評估會議投審評估會議是由外部專家所組成的當時投票是8票對1票8票贊成1票反對所以透過這兩個獨立性的階段之後送進管理委員會在管理委員會是由外部評審顧問加上各部會代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7854.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7858.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
所成立的一個委員會這個委員會經過集體討論之後通過此項投資國發基金始於106年6月參與爐心14.88億元的投資在這個過程中整體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7872.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7893.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
報告完成之後呢在國發基金就開始進入投抽管理那在這個過程裡面發生了這個爐心併購酒地出現他的質疑那這個質疑呢當時呢整個國發基金就依據金管會當時遵守他的建議是請當時的這個爐心公司必須保留20% |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7895.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7912.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
避免酒地公司沒有辦法達到當時的財務的目標所以他扣留了20%分六期支付那投資之後呢發生了重大事件就是說當時呢整個基金投資因為違反了這個證券交易法有價證券詐毀 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7916.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7945.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那隱匿申報因為當時呢出現的這個一家子公司呢已經在投資前已經被賣掉了當事人當時的當事人都刻意的隱瞞這個部分因此呢這個部分就並且呢造成了這個隱匿申報以及發行有價證件詐毀以及特別背信罪嫌遭台北地方法院起訴國發基金為了維護權益所以就參與了投保中心受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7946.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7966.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
與投保中心共同提出團體訴訟該案正經商業法院審理中國發基金目前還是有在關注日前以後有一個判決當時兩位經理人判決有罪我們也委請律師進行給予意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7967.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7985.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
律師所給的意見就是這個判決有助於我們的團體訴訟第二個部分是國發基金如果要獨立進行訴訟的話並不會增加刑責因此我們尊重律師的建議那同時呢整個案子目前我們就等待司法的調查結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7986.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8000.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
再來我們針對聯合再生的部分聯合再生當時是因為整個太陽能產業面臨的中國太陽能產業的低價競爭於是整個太陽能產業希望能夠組成一個新的聯盟 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8002.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8022.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
吸力光能源為主導那規劃了將玉晶、深陽等光電合併然後呢更名為聯合再生股份有限公司並向國發基金申請的轉型基金參與投資22億國發基金接受投資之後呢也邀請了相關主管機關進行調查也請了安永 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8024.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8043.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
這個會計事務所協助進行調查三家公司的財務跟評價出具了盡職報告並於這個當時並依據這個結果申請了三段式的調查在第一個階段政策委員會的通過之後投資評估審議委員會當時是以8票對3票通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8047.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8061.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
八票對三票通過都超過了三分之二的委員同意所以呢在經到了國關基金的委員會化部會委員會也審核同意之後進行投資那因為當時呢這個投資的過程裡面呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8065.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8084.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
這個我們因為不超過最大我們是跟頭所以我們不成為最大股東的原則下我們最終投資參與13.91億那這個過程裡面到了後來呢聯合再生再增資之後呢我們又依據比例參與投資的0.52億就5200萬那 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8089.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8105.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
但是呢,國發基金參與投資之後呢,我們就進行例行性的管理那後來呢,經過黃國昌委員質詢,在立法院質詢,在媒體揭露了張彬這個工業區的案件,這是51號案 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8107.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8129.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那產生之後呢我們依據委員的建議之後我們就開始進行調查我們第一個是函請該公司說明這個案件的原由同時我們再去函到經濟部我們做雙重的查核確定這個案這個理由到底正確與否我們依據這樣的一個結果進行我們的調查那之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8136.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8157.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
黃委員所提的幾個案件我們全部都有去調查包括永良公司在國安部使用到的德國製中國產的德國品牌中國製的逆變器我們都經過了調查然後也因為這樣在董事會提出要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8159.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8179.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
修改本身的作業流程能夠改善這個公司治理所犯的錯誤那我們整個過程目前都在每一個過程我們大概只要有目前只要有看到任何的事件發生我們都會找律師來了解我們能做什麼那為什麼要做這件事我必須強調一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8181.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8206.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我們只佔聯合站6.09的股份也就是我們無法代表另外那94%的股份我們無法代表另外94%的股份我們也依據公司法跟公司治理我們並不具備實質控制權也不具備從屬關係我們與該公司不具備從屬關係我們唯一依法能做的是在董事會提出我們的主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8206.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8221.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
所以我們在董事會多次提出主張要求改善要求說明包括現在51號案目前的行政訴訟的狀態我們都要求說明然後也經過評估那這是我們現在唯一可做的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8222.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8248.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
黃委員希望本會一定要去管理那這個會形成股東干政違反公司治理以及公司法實質控制以這個跟從屬關係的影響所以我們除了依照律師的說法我們沒有能力去管理那個公司因為國發基金是一個投資公司不是實質管理也不是金管會我們也不是經濟部我們違法實施 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8248.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8270.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
中央目的事業主管機關所執行的公司治理以及案場的管理但是我們都跟金管會與經濟部都密切的聯繫做雙重的查核我們希望能讓事實有真相為什麼這個事實的真相很重要其實聯合再生有一千多個員工跟家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8271.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8297.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我們在瞭解這個公司的治理有問題的同時我們必須兼顧到這一千多人的生計因為員工往往是比較無辜的所以我們希望平衡所有的事情然後仔細的調查有問題我們才會去改變那為了基於這兩個案件所產生的問題國發基金就特別做了總共五個步驟的大調整第一個投錢管理的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8298.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8312.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我們過去對頭錢管理的這個轉型計畫對於組織的調整我們並沒有特別的要求我們現在會新納入新的要求第二個我們對於轉型能力的評估過去我們評估的比較少一點我們現在會強化再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8314.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8337.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
當事人經營者的市場口碑調查我們也強化第二個再來產品的趨勢分析我們也去了解那接著我們增加了公司治理貧困門檻如果公司治理不加者我們一律不予投資那我想今天也聽到了黃委員希望我們能夠對於虧損的公司也進行比較大的管控這一點呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8339.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8363.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我們內部會需要一些比較多的時間討論因為原來國大基金也辦了一個救火的業務那這個救火的業務尤其對於新創公司幾乎99%都不會賺錢那我們會重新來檢討那會後我們會去檢討他那投資審議的部分也是一樣我們強化了審議機制我們增加了外部評審委員人數我們大幅的增加人數那另外讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8364.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8385.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
更多的人進來以後可以得到更公平的更周延的思慮那未達共識的會議我們過去是一次會議會進行投票我們現在會進行多次會議才進行投票沒有達到共識就不投票所以只要委員有意見我們就會再次召開會議再來我們過去提高我們提高了表決門檻從原來二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8388.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8413.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
的決定變成三分之二或四分之三依據不同的等級狀況所以最低的部分也要符合三分之二的同意那如果他的條件比較嚴格的部分我們會採用四分之三那在合約的保障我們也要求我們現在在新的合約也會有一個保障的權益我們希望付買回條款第二個我們不再是一次付款我們可改Milestone付款多次付款 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8414.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8438.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
來確保我們的權益不受損再來我們要求公司要承諾協助國發基金取得持股比例的董事席次那投後管理的部分我們依據監察院的糾正我們已經將會跟人事總處申請設立投後管理部門過去國發基金的投後管理是由業務部門來執行的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8440 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8459.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
坦白講他的頭後管理是兼職在做那他的管理的能力是的確有改善的空間第二個我們設立預警系統我們在整個我們會進行財報的預警跟這個投資這個市場的預警那再來是依據國發基金獲利的情形優化管理分類我們過去是以純財務來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8461.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8474.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
但是事實上投資是看投資獲利來看所以我們會以股價上市公司會以股價來看因為股價代表了未來性那舉個例子藥華藥我們是一個虧損的公司但是國家基金賺了45倍賺了45倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8477.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8492.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那我們依據過去用財報來看就把這個賺45倍的公司列為高風險的這個追蹤戶這個是不正確的做法因為代表我們投資還是看未來性我們以當才講的KK Day我們也跟各位報告KK Day我們賺了58% |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8495.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8511.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
他還沒賺錢但是他已經700多人的公司是國內少見的獨角獸新創獨角獸在國內裡面KK Day已經是獨大的獨大的一個旅遊公司新型的旅遊公司所以我們也會支持這樣的公司但是就財務來講的確新創企業的確還沒賺錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8514.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8531.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
但是就投資而言以他最近募資的金額來看我們賺了58%所以我們也因為這樣進行改變我們把我們的管理報表進行優化然後我們定期舉行投後管理委員會我們請外部的顧問給我們對產業的趨勢跟這個市場的變動給予我們建議另外我們爭取投後成立 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8537.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8551.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
頭後管理部門我們最近會向主總提出申請那另外在退場機制部分我們現在也在修進我們希望修改我們的退場機制過去的退場機制的確造成很多的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8553.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8582.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
我們的確需要去修改然後呢這過去也會有很多擔心擔心影響股價擔心影響很多人民的生活所以他的顧忌比較多但是我們現在是依照機制我們五年到了我們就希望能夠達到扶植的目的之後我們就會考慮退場那對於公司治理不佳者優先退場所以我們現在也正進行某家公聯合再生的退場機制那這個是我們在目前整個投資機制的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8582.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8611.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
的做法那我在這裡呢這個整個就是我們針對這兩個案子跟各位做報告那這個爐心我們在等待那這個靈兒再生我們依據黃委員有三個案子包括包括一個是我們投資之前新日光的投資新日泰新日泰投資到洗衣洗衣到台灣綠能我們也去調查了這個案子那這個案子是在我們投資之前的事情新日光時代的事情但是我們也進行了調查那 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8612.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8637.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
我們跟經濟部也密切的合作我們跟經濟部也取得了整個整個股權架構跟投資的狀態那我們大概也對整個案子也有所了解那所以呢這個委員的報告委員的要求我們每個案子目前都是有找律師來做那我們針對所有的投後我們現在進行了以上的管理這個我想跟委員報告我們現在的執行的狀態謝謝委員的聆聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8639.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8662.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
好,那個謝謝主委,是不是就請主委先就座那個剛剛主委報告的內容你應該很清楚就是我給您非常充足的時間讓你做完整的說明我也沒有限制你任何 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8663.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8689.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
發言的時間就讓你好好的做說明因為我們委員會在進行的時候除了請你們提供資料調閱請你們提供書面報告之外那我們總是希望說讓行政機關的官員大家有機會能夠針對你們所提出的書面報告針對你們所提出的書面報告來提出你們的觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8691.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8719.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
這樣子的話我們在整個進行的過程當中程序才會比較完備這個是第一點那第二個事情是說剛剛主委在報告的時間當中因為有點名我所以我必須要說明一下我從頭到尾就知道國發基金他就是最大的股東他在裡面也只有一席的董事不管是哪家公司有董事沒有董事 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8721.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8733.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
其實一看就知道你持股百分之多少你有懂事國發基金對於公司的管理本來就是透過懂事來參與公司的治理 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8735.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8760.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
這個是天經地義的事情我向來的要求也就是國發基金的董事必須要善盡董事的職責我相信在公司法下面在政交法下面一個董事他應該要履行什麼樣子的責任這件事情主委應該也非常的清楚那第三個事情是在剛您的報告當中你也非常坦率的 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8761.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8789.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
就承認了這兩家公司治理的確有問題這兩家公司治理的確有問題我們從這個有問題的公司治理以及國發會在管理的過程當中過去這幾年所累積的經驗你們也發現了就真的有問題這是因為有問題所以您今天所提出來的書面報告才會有所謂投資機制的改革嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8790.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8804.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
這些投資機制的改革每一點這都還不是本委員會任何委員所提供的具體的要求或建議完全完全完全是國發會 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8806.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8828.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
從過去這些失敗的例子當中所得到的教訓才會去精進整個投資的決策跟投資以後管理的那顯然就是從過去發生了嚴重的問題那現在知道要改革所以才會提出這些改革的方案出來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8830.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8845.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
那這個就是我們國會在進行監督的時候所謂向前邁進是什麼所謂向前邁進就是你要怎麼精進整個國發基金的管理針對這件事情提出你們的改革措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8846.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8864.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
因為在比較早期的時候,有立法委員提案是要用法律,國發基金的管理要用法律來規範不是用行政規則來加以規範在這樣的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8867.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8879.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
目前我們還沒有到用法律規範的層次那行政機關按照立法院監督的內容發生了錯誤那在發生錯誤的情況之下本來本來 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8882.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8893.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
國發會以及國發基金管理委員會來進行管理來進行改革這件事情本來就是大家共同的期待那針對剛剛主委的說明我先簡單講然後我們現在會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8900.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8918.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
繼續的進行那現在呢就本次會議的主題那我們的主委已經報告完了那委員如果有垂詢的話那可以做發言的登記那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8921.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8945.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
主席我們的開會中心沒有寫並備質詢報告完全結束沒有並備質詢提醒一下主席沒有關係啦請尊重請尊重主席會議上面的進行我們到目前為止全部都是按照立法院職權行事法跟我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8946.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8973.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
有關於運作的要點在家裡進行的那各位委員如果有臨時提案的話是不是拜託各位委員也在4點10分以前來提出那我們是尋答的情況再來進行處理那我們現在是不是先請登記第一位發言的委員徐委員來發言都可以看你要上來還是要坐在這邊我都尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8978.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8979.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
你的開會通知沒有寫並備諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8993.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9016.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我先跟中嘉賓委員清楚的說明一下我們目前在整個運作上面都是按照運作要點跟立法院職權行事法在進行的現在委員針對國發會所提出來的報告他們有問題要提問這件事情我必須要尊重每一個委員的權限那你反對他 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9018.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9035.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
跟行政官員提問啊那個我先跟中委員講現在是我在主持會議所以官員要不要備詢這件事情恐怕不是由您來加以決定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9041.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9057.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那我們現在是不是先請第一位登記發言委員的委員你沒有寫並備質詢我們不會登記發言啦我們是要處理事項你沒有寫並備質詢每個委員會都去委員會如果寫並備質詢我們就會登記發言要質詢來列席的官員你會議通知沒有寫並備質詢我們當然不會登記發言啦上面有沒有我們登記發言沒有並備質詢登記發言要登記誰誰啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9070.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9094.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
主席 意識規則再看一下意識慣例沒有登記發言沒有並備質詢就沒有登記發言今天只有報告四項報告完了沒有並備質詢以後發開會通知請注意立法院的議事常規你沒有寫並備質詢我們來參加的委員不會有去登記發言質詢的所以你們放那個表啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9096.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9117.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
對行政官員來講那是我們內部的事情至於你要臨時提案那我們委員會要內部討論那是內部討論的事情官員已經報告完畢那也沒有要他們備詢我們委員也不曉得他要備詢也沒有要來登記發言如果這時候允許來質詢就侵犯了其他修道開會通知的委員的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9118.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9138.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那個相關有關於登記可以提問的順序在一點鐘的時候都已經放在外面的台子上面相關的登記全部都放在這外面我還是請鐘嘉賓委員你一開始在程序上面發言我都很尊重你們發言的權利跟機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9140.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9154.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那現在已經到了下午4點02分了前面也有委員他們登記要發言那你總不可能你自己一直站著麥克風只有你一個人發言其他按照規矩登記的委員通通都不能發言吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9155.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9182.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
委員可以登記發言啊 可以證明主席同意登記發言啊 但不是質詢喔發言會發言喔 不是質詢喔 我們沒有並被質詢喔請總委員注意 現在會議的主席是我我收到你的提醒了 非常感謝你的提醒現在是不是我們請登記第一位發言的委員 許新穎委員主席 全議員您的官員要不要離席了 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9183.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9205.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
對不起喔,現在會議的主席是我,我還沒有請官員退席現在不是,您不是會議的主席喔請中委員嘉賓,你如果有問題要問,現在可以去登記那你如果因為今天的會議議程沒有寫並備諮詢我們不知道可以質詢官員請了解會議的程序我再說一次喔,從一點的時候登記發言的條件都是在外面 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9208.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9227.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
你的會議通知沒有寫 就是沒有並備咨詢好 非常感謝鍾嘉賓委員現在我們是不是請登記第一位發言的徐欣穎委員好 謝謝 謝謝主席本席想請這個劉主委想請 就叫劉主委 可以嗎來是不是有請劉主委來 有請劉主委你在這邊做這樣指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9237.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9261.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
沒有關係啊來請劉主委請劉主委那個是不是可以請在場的委員尊重徐欣穎委員的權利是不是尊重徐欣穎委員的權利人家已經登記發言在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9262.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9284.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
然後在這邊這樣子繼續干擾其他委員在會議的進行這樣不好了好那我們那個現在那個發言登記截止我們從一開始一點放到現在夠了那在場的委員有沒有要再登記的都沒有嗎好那我們發言登記就截止了現在有請徐欣穎委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9286.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9304.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
好謝謝主席那劉主委本席剛剛聽了您的報告想首先請教您您有特別講到如昕那他目前他目前盈虧如何你報告裡面沒有寫這可以講吧目前他屬於虧損狀態但是虧損多少虧損多少目前是虧損12億12.38嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9313.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9314.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
對 12.38億所以我們投14.88億目前已經虧損12.38億整個虧了83.2% |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9324.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9345.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
那剛剛但是委員你一定要注意到我們每一年還是有貢獻280億的獲利你整個國發基金嘛我現在是針對我現在一直覺得我們一直被同仁其實都沒有被就是我們投資的獲利或是績效沒有被公佈但是我跟委員報告一件事你剛剛說每年貢獻多少280億 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9347.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9350.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
我們大概280億左右每年賺280億我很快跟委員報告一下我上來之後我針對這個爐心的狀況我做了一個裁試因為這個狀況我們現在只有兩個可能一個就是四股當時四股的價錢大概在兩塊左右兩塊多一點沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9365.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9394.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
沒關係那我們當時呢就找了那個我有問你的你再回答我們問一下這個到底有沒有機會在股價往上走如果有機會走的話可以我們試股的話就會造成更大的損失所以我們決定等待那目前已經回到3塊多最多有到過4塊所以我們呢在期待它因為它現在每個月都有十幾億的營業額所以代表它的營收還是存在那現在整個全掌握在 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9394.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9414.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
台灣人手上所以它還是一個值得所以我們正在等待這樣的一個公司的改變對啊 因為不知道等待多久但是本席還是要在這邊因為您剛剛有講每年我們國發基金還是賺了280億所以我在這裡肯定我們國發基金的我們的所有的同仁就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9419.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9432.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
國發會的同仁還有這個基金會的同仁但是因為這個如心也是今天您報告的兩家公司其中一家那您剛剛也有提到說當初你特別有報告當初這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9435.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9453.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
如心我們在決策要不要投資之前那這個投票最後在這個2017 106年這個投票的時候您還剛報告的時候特別講8比1那本席好像了解你們整個委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9455.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9461.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
大概多少人整個那一天該出席就是整個的這個決策的委員應該要有11位11嗎15吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9468.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9487.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
所有委員跟委員報告我們委員會有一個pool然後去抽籤順序出來然後必須要在那個pool裡面過半的這個出席才能夠去對過半的出席但是我的意思是說你發通知的委員應該有15位吧發通知的委員是11位只有11位11位真的嗎你們確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9493.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9507.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
你們發通知只有11位跟委員報告一下本席手上的資料你出席人員你列了15位跟委員報告一下我們這個委員會的召開方式是這樣的就是我們會有兩組委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9508.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9513.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
一組是屬於企業經營組你們的會議紀錄你們自己針對那一次投資評估審議會的會議紀錄你們出席人員就列了15位然後有6位請假難道不是嗎怎麼現在變11位我們開會的條件是每一組委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9530.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9549.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
對開會條件他是一定可以成立的就是說人數達到一定可以成立我現在指的是你們預計出席的人啊你發通知的在我們手上的資料是有15位啊我們開會通知都會發給所有的委員因為他們對我問的就是所有委員嘛是不是15位呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9549.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9563.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
但是我們好了沒關係你回答嘛是不是15位15到17位都會發然後能夠出席的就是說要達到會議的話要三分之二嘛目前是三分之二嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9566.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9587.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
各辦好各辦好各辦過半出席然後出席的必須要三分之二過半出席才能開會然後要三分之二才能夠通過對所以我們發現說你這麼多的委員那但是出席的只有九位只有九位再來再來就是這你看喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9588.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9610.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
這麼多年下來 如新這家公司它的整個的虧損這麼的嚴重八成整個虧損當然我們的主委你認為說我們期待它起來但是我們現在要看的就是說在當初決策的時候就我們所知你們整個的把關 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9611.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9627.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
在報告中你說是很審慎嚴謹但是我們看起來是不審慎嚴謹的為什麼呢因為這個如心投資案我們國發基金它是要用於產業創新高科技發展但我們看到這個如心它是傳產 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9629.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9652.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
也不是產業創新也不是高科技發展這第一點第二點就我們所知當初一些外部的專家明確的指出他沒有專利權而且這個專家學者也都反對可是你們還是讓他投票通過了這個為什麼為什麼會有這種情況就我了解為什麼不採納專家審查的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9658.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9687.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
因為這個是一個整個機制過去都是用共識決共識決的就是每個人都有不同的意見充分討論之後進行投票以投票的結果為準就像剛才我們在委員會大家有不同的意見這邊也是採取投票然後以投票為準5比4剛才我在現場所以這個會不會很可怕就說你除了你除了人來投票之外沒有一些指標一定要通過的嗎包括我們的國發基金它只能用在某些 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9688.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9715.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
符合國發基金投資的標的這個廠商那你傳統產業你不是產業創新也不是高科技發展還有你的淨值調查很多的疏漏那這些疏漏產生了我們只要大家出席的人同一半以上然後又投票多數通過我們就讓他通過這樣我們民眾的納稅錢不是很沒有很沒有保障嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9716.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9734.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我們找的是從財務跟產業雙方面去熟悉這方面的人來進行投票的跟評估的那您剛剛講的但是我們擔心弊端我想因為我們是替民眾把關當然你找的專家或學者什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9735.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9756.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那今天我們總是還是要防弊嘛對不對我們要防弊的情況下他雖然掛著專家學者可是睜眼說瞎話或者是這個明明看到整個的評估報告不管這家公司的財務是有問題還是投資標的物不符我們國發基金該投資的那你都可以投贊成票這個是有問題的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9760.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9775.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
跟委員報告就是國發基金他的評估機制就是擔心行政人員譬如說他看到一個特定的審查委員他的意見是負面的然後就片面把他否定掉或者決定要投所以他這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9776.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9804.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
外部委員的意見通通會如實的呈現給這個投資評估審議委員這些專家從財務面產業面各個方面來看那委員都看到了這一些反對的意見贊成的意見財務的法務的會計的滴滴的這個評估調查然後他去做出他的這個投票的行為然後是秘密投票然後對但是你沒有回答我的問題我們在防弊的時候有些人為的 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9806.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9831.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
他可能只是就是說各種的調查結果那都是不符合的可是他還是要投投這個贊成票我們就要防弊啊每一個委員只有一票啊對啊所以那你們這個委員怎麼選出來的你在專家學者或在各個領域你們這是誰決定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9833.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9854.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我們這個是由我們國際基金會去洽詢這個市場比較具知名的人物然後變成一個像資料庫資料庫怎麼挑隨機挑出來之後呢隨機挑的對再到像最近的話是再到我這邊我在隨機從裡面去勾選然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9855.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9875.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我們是有一點懷疑啦大概我們也擔心有些專家學者他不想躺昏睡他是不是覺得好像這個案子有一點壓力好像要過那有些專家學者覺得我不能違背我的良心我就不出席了那有些人呢可能是這個跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9876.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9901.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
跟這個主政的或者是想要過的假設是站在一起的那他當然出席這個弊端要怎麼防範這個您提的這個其實在很多年前這個就已經做了就是說他是早年早年是要簽名的所以委員覺得有壓力後來做了修正之後是委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9903.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9926.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
簽完名之後把他的名字那個地方是折起來封起來也就是說我們可以看到這個委員同意不同意跟他的意見但是看不到這是誰的意見然後他當場就封起來就密封起來等到這個案子出現了有任何的問題之後才去把它打開來然後看一下這個每個委員的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9926.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9937.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
那現在呢獨興的案子會看到就是因為呢後面有意見以後大家把它打開來看裡面每一個人的意見好OK那現在我最後再問一個問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9940.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9963.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
如新他應該是我們可不可以設定一些標準就像我們人的評選也一樣他要過關最後他才可以最後參加最後的比如說口試或者是什麼那如新這個公司如果他在各項的指標他都沒有符合我們的規定那就應該就打掉他就應該進步來給我們來做評選嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9966.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9991.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
我現在不是針對如新我是以如新為案例未來我們不希望這個就有一些公司他不管他的這個發展性創新他就不符合了還有我們也看到其實在投資前我們就知道他們這家公司的資金各方面是很有問題的所以最後他以小併大這個海外併購那也產生現在產生像現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9994.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10010.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
這種虧損的情形都可能很有關所以是不是你們的這個標準可以在我們要評估前你鎖定了什麼樣的廠商那你要先做一些他的標準上的一個篩選嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10012.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10033.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
現在有沒有這個機制這個是這樣子我們可以再來檢討一下但是我要跟委員報告一下我們在外面有很多的新創他在找尋資金的時候其實他面對的很多的Venture Capital他本身會有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10034.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10050.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
會一些比較嚴苛的投資標的機制那當時呢很多的其實包括至少他要符合都是有希望我們能夠盡量去扶持這些新創公司的時候我們的機制其實是比較相較外面寬鬆的 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10053.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10067.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我懂你要表達但是你沒有抓到我的point但是你講的是說比較屬於大型的例如說一家公司我要的是電子電機的那你念土木的我就不符合那所以除非你 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10068.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10084.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
電土木可是你有電子電機相關總之你要符合那個標的那它已經不是產業創新它是傳產然後它也不是科技那你都把它納進來那就不符合我們這個國發基金的投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10086.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10109.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
像這種我的意思就是說我想我也不要浪費大家時間所以我們希望你們要有一些明確的然後在他初步有一些包括這裡面應該也有我們應該長期以來也有一些就在譬如像淨值調查裡面不管他的這個財務他的各方面資金的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10110.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10116.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
那只要它不符合標準的你應該就要把它淘汰掉不能再放進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10117.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10140.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
對 我們現在就增加了您講的我們要求他提供轉型計畫那尤其是組織的轉型我們要求的很多因為要不然的話過去來講很多來申請的時候他的組織並沒有改變那第二個部分我們也要求也去檢查他的能力不是說他想要轉他也要能力那如果能力不足我們現在也聘了專家會來做事前的檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10141.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10167.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
他想要轉的方向到底他有沒有能力這些都是我們就是委員剛才提的幾個那我們前面會去做比較嚴格的要求所以我們真的希望人民的納稅錢不要丟到海裡好 謝謝好 謝謝許新穎委員那因為我們那個臨時提案的時間已經過了那我們就先處理臨時提案是不是可以請議事委員先宣讀提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10172.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10172.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10174.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10202.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
民主提案第一案有鉴于行政院国家发展基金不过三位外部学者专家持反对意见执意投资如新股份有限公司导致纳税人惨赔原请行政院国家发展基金发函询问2017年6月5日行政院国家发展基金产业创新转型基金第一次投资评估审议会即2017年6月9日行政院国家发展基金管理会所出席之委员为何不顾三位外部学者专家反对仍决意图 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10203.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10230.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
仍決意投資如新,並一週內將匯入內容提供本委員會。提案人徐欣盈、陳超明、吳宗憲、楊瓊玉、林思宇、游浩宣導完畢。好,那個針對臨時提案的第一案請問委員有沒有要說明?沒有OK,那那個國發會有沒有要說明?沒有,所以是可以遵照辦理嗎?是不是?可以好,謝謝,來第二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10231.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10251.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
第二案有鉴于行政院国家发展基金不顾三位外部学者专家持反对意见执意投资联合再生民营股份有限公司不仅导致纳税人亏损更是弊案连连援请行政院国家发展基金发案询问2017年12月31日行政院国家发展基金产业创新转型基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10252.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10274.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
第四次投資評估審議會即2017年12月27日行政院國家發展基金管理會所出席之委員為了不顧三位外部學者專家反對仍決意投資聯合再生並一週內將回覆內容提供本委員會提案人徐信 陳昌明 吳宗憲 楊瓊英林思明 游皓 宣傳筆來 請問提案委員有沒有要說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10276.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10296.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
請問國發會有沒有意見這沒有意見但是我針對臨時提案第一點可能要更正一下因為他不是三位委員是一位委員林和寨是三位委員反對盧鑫是一位委員反對所以提案一的不顧三位委員可能要改成一位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10297.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10321.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那個我這樣講好了就是說針對那個提案的內容那個委員到底是贊成還是反對其實你們的文件都已經送來了嘛那為什麼立法院要查這些文件是因為之前我們在進行監督的時候我們針對那些委員他們為什麼贊成根本沒有人知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10322.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10345.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
那你們資料送來了以後我們才有機會去看嘛那看完了資料以後才發現說原來之前送外部的學者專家評估的時候評估回來的報告其實都很負面那可能從主委的立場來講因為那些報告我也可以跟主委說明我全部都看完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10346.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10362.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我全部都看完了您說盧新只有一個反對其他兩個沒反對但是您可能在看那個報告的時候人家是寫的比較客氣因為我看完了整個報告以後我認為他的意見是反對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10363.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10387.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
那當然到底他的意見是贊成還是反對的這件事情我把整份報告看完了以後我認為提案委員他的說明並沒有不對那如果主委認為說那個外省的專家意見其實不是反對是贊成的話其實你們也可以就這樣含糊譬如說因為你之前已經沒意見了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10388.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10409.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
沒有意見對那你如果發給他他說沒有其實我的意見是反對那他就可以寫他的理由那或者是說其實我的意見是贊成沒有反對所以就沒有所謂不顧的問題這樣子的話就可以把誤會給李一清嘛主委您懂我的意思嗎懂我們就針對這兩案都提 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10410.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10417.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
所以第二案臨時提案你也沒有意見嗎?沒有意見那我徵詢提案委員給他們兩週的時間好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10426.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10445.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
提案委員是不是同意給他們兩個禮拜都可以嘛第一案跟第二案我們就按照就是剛剛主委的要求提案委員同意了我們就修改文字後通過好那現在進行第三案 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10448.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10462.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
第三 聯合再生能源股份有限公司得標經濟部工業局張斌工業區太陽光電出租案違約出售套利2.63億事後經濟部要求聯合再生買回並主導經營權聯合再生淨於甲乙種 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10463.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10489.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
刑事特別股欺騙經濟部創造有60%股權的假象但實際只有約10%出資額及表決權比例有建議2022年9月14日聯合再生董事會討論上開欺騙方案時行政院國家發展基金及所派任之公股代表載以知情實際僅有10%出資額及表決權比例根本不符合經濟部之要求不僅協助遮掩 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10489.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10515.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
更於2022年11月欺騙國會 宣稱取得60%股權原請行政院國家發展基金 徹查並追究相關人員責任並於週內將調查結果提供本委員會提案人 徐信 吳宗憲 陳昌明 楊瓊英 林思敏 游皓 宣傳筆請問提案委員有沒有要說明沒有 那請國發會你們有沒有意見我們請同仁可以 請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10517.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10544.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
跟那個主席還有各位委員報告一下當時聯合再生他這個使公司的股權轉售之後那我們其實是有去問這個經濟部主管機關那他給我們的回覆其實當時的我們在這個院裡面其實我們是如實的表達只是後來委員這邊有在那個提出說他這個特別股的方式是只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10545.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10568.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那個股權沒有表決權所以我想跟委員還有跟提案主席跟提案委員這邊就是說國華基金的這個統領其實並沒有說刻意要欺瞞這個大院以上報告喂那個齁我先跟你們說明一下齁可能你們問題的意思會比較清楚一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10570.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10591.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
國發會的同仁你們現在帶的電腦裡面應該有你們在2022年11月提給立法院的書面報告吧有嗎?因為其實我都有整理啦你們如果需要的話我現在馬上秀PPT給你們看那個同仁是不是把那個PPT插到電腦上這些資料我全部都花時間消化完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10605.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10628.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我現在沒有在尋答,我是在協助國發基金的同仁知道這個提案在說什麼你們要看嗎?還是你們自己手上有資料?沒關係,我們回去查我真的這邊都有資料你們要看嗎?所以第三案你們也沒意見了? |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10630.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10651.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
我想這個意見在這一邊確實憑良心講因為這個案子它有它的複雜度然後牽扯到其他沒有啦 因為我跟國發基金的同仁講一下就是說當資料回來以後當我們去看了這個資料以後實際上面掌握的狀況就很清楚我為什麼說實際上面掌握的狀況就很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10653.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10677.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
當初他們在騙社會說他們有60%的股份的時候但是你們回去看一下那一次董事會提給國發基金簽核表示意見的時候在那一次的簽核意見單上面很清楚的寫喔他其實實質的股權其實只有百分之十不是百分之六十白紙黑字 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10678.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10705.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
你們國發會的同仁甚至在那個PPT上面寫說這個跟經濟部的要求不符用手寫的喔用手寫的那一看就知道是你們國發基金的同仁就用手寫的說跟經濟部的要求不符那時候我下去調閱的時候我看到這一張我臉都傻了那證明你們早就知道那是10%不是60%但是在你們知道以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10706.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10719.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
那個時間序我全部都整理好了在你們知道以後你們送給立法院的報告白紙黑紙又寫60%所以我就覺得很奇怪你們明明就知道了你們為什麼送給立法院的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10720.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10738.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
還是完全做跟事實不符的描述所以我相信提案委員大概也是因為這樣所以才會有相同的困惑請國發基金的同仁跟國發會的同仁理解一件事情我們在進行調查委員會的時候不管執政黨的立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10739.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10758.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
他們要進行什麼樣子的批評或者是無敵放矢但是我們在進行的過程當中我們是很嚴謹的依照你們提供的資料看到的問題讓你們機會表達意見而不是在沒有讓你們表達意見機會的情況之下我就要做成調查報告因為這個調查委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10761.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10788.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我們一定會做成調查報告的我們一定會做成調查報告而那個調查報告一定會很清楚的去反映在你們移送給本委員會的所有的資料當中在2022年的幾月幾號第幾次開董事會你們已經知道那其實是10%的股權不是60%的股權因為現在資料都已經拿來了以後有白紙黑字的證據大家都不要再爭辯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10790.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10811.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
但是大家現在困惑的事情你們早就知道只有10%但是送到立法院的報告還是寫60%這是怎麼回事我相信提案三是在處理這個層次的問題啦好我們把它釐清之後啊能不能還是給我們兩週的時間那我要尊重提案委員啦那個提案委員給他兩週的時間可以嗎可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10816.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10828.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
我們就善意的 我們都好 那個也謝謝提案委員的善意那我們就依照國發會的要求那個把它文字把它改成兩週後通過好 那第三案就通過 第四案 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10830.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10858.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
第四案 知恩王立川委員於立席時對國發會主委稱報告就是違法國發委員會主委居然於口頭報告時附和稱我想要報道抱歉一下我們黨傳認為是違法的會議顯然忘記自己擔任國發會主委的身份以違反行政中立原則並藐視本調查委員會原提案請主席要求國發會主委道歉提案人吳宗憲 劉浩 徐欣盈 陳超明 楊瓊英 宣傳筆 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10860.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10881.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
請問提案委員有沒有要說明那我在這邊就直接說明那我主要提這個是因為剛剛發生的幾個狀況第一個就是在民進黨委員離席的時候那他直接請官員不要回答那他說如果主委報告的話就是違法那我認為立法委員的職責是在於監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10882.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10907.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
政府而不是護航官員但是主委後來的回答是說我想要抱歉一下我們黨團認為是違法的會議既然是國家的官員那就不應該黨國不分當年我也陪著民進黨一起對抗議國民黨的黨國不分我也陪著民進黨過現在我不能容認說 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10909.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10916.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
你現在自己執政的你反而就是在演黨國不分的這種戲那這個是這個是不被接受的那我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10919.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10939.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
人民對於國家我們還是有一定的要求我們認為不能以黨領政這是不對的所以我認為主委講了這句話他應該要出來做個道歉因為國發會並不是民進黨的投顧公司那國發會主委也不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10939.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10966.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
民進黨的頭顧老師所以不應該這麼做那後來甚至還有我們剛剛在抗議的時候那又民進黨的立法委員跑進來說我們怎麼可以罵官員那其實民進黨平常怎麼罵人我想大家都有目共睹啦甚至我上個禮拜還被謀因為民進黨委員罵髒話我想那個才叫罵人那我們對於一個說錯話而且是在國會是非常嚴重的一件事情尤其在民主的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10966.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10995.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
你把黨國不分以我們的黨團認為這個怎麼樣那這是由一個內閣的官員口中所說出來尤其是在國會裡面我認為這個是極度的不妥啦那我剛剛也有說得很清楚的每個人都有可能會口誤我自己講話有時候也會口誤那所以我們希望說由國發會主委自己來說明那如果是有需要道歉的話也要麻煩主委能夠在這邊跟大家說一句道歉的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10997.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11017.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
好 謝謝提案委員的說明那現在那個主委有沒有要做一個補充的說明或回覆我做個說明喔其實我來這裡我不求什麼我犧牲了我很多包括我身體的病痛來到這裡我只想為國家做一點事我並不想捲入任何政黨的鬥爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11018.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11024.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
我不想捲入那是為什麼我今天坐在這裡但是我今天黨團認為這是違法非議那個標誌也在那裡我闡述他認為這是違法非議 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11030.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11058.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
我不認為我有什麼樣的錯那如果今天大家要認為我應該捲入這個政治的風暴裡面來那我個人願意承擔這個後果因為我今天因為我在執政黨的團隊裡面我願意為這件事負責我也跟中線委員抱歉我願意負責所以我很抱歉我只能這樣子那至於貴黨團要怎麼做呢我基本上也尊重那我必須要我的風格 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11059.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11071.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
我先補充說明一下我先補充說明等一下我先補充可能主委忘了剛講所以我剛講一個就是說第一個我要先說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11072.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11097.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
主委以前的資料我都有查過所以主委就是國家人才這一點絕對沒有問題我也非常尊敬主委以及他的專業知識這一點我從來不否認那剛剛我說的是因為主委說了一句話說我們黨團我想這個我還請我的助理回過頭去調錄音那個錄影是不是我講錯了就發現是主委說我們黨團但是跟主委說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11099.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11118.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
你來這裡不管你的政黨是什麼我們都沒有意見那你的政治傾向是什麼我們絕對予以尊重但是在這邊如果說我們黨團剛剛說了什麼這句話是不妥的所以主委是不是口誤那就是主委就這個部分去說明那主委對於國家有非常大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11119.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11140.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
認同非常大的熱忱以及犧牲這個我都絕對認同這件事情我沒有否認過主委的專業能力以及主委對這個國家的貢獻我從來不否認我只是說在國會的殿堂不宜說我們黨團這一句話那個主委有要再補充嗎我沒有補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11142.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11149.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
你沒有補充嗎我沒有補充那請問針對這樣子的一個提案是在場委員有沒有意見都沒有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11154.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11184.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
他已經說他抱歉那我覺得我們只是希望這樣那我們從來沒有要求說黨團或什麼要做什麼樣的處分我覺得那是沒有任何意義的我也不是做任何政治攻擊或追殺我們只是釐清這個事情OK好那那個所以就要測案嗎好那我就尊重委員的提案測案那因為下一個換我發表意見我要發表意見不太適合在主席台上所以是不是可以請中線委員來站帶主席一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11203.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11216.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
下一個我們請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席我其實不太想要讓主委為難理由是說我必須要老實講 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11218.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11234.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
我看完這些投資案幾乎全部都不是在你任內通過的但是這件事情整個國發基金的管理運作機制必須要徹底的檢討否則會一而再再而三的發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11236.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11256.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那因為我不想要讓主委為難,剛剛主委說他身體好像有一點不太舒服,那所以就請主席直接問主委,就是您希望單純的聽我講,還是您希望有機會可以respond,因為我如果不給你機會respond,對你不公平。 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11257.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11282.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那但是好像我一定要你講又好像搶你所難所以主委是不是可以請主席先詢問一下主委他是想要單純聽我講他們事後用書面補題因為我再跟國發會還有國發基金講一次喔我點出來的問題都是希望在最後做調查報告以前給國發會有respond有回覆的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11284.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11302.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那現在我接下來要講的你們是希望說現在有答覆的機會您願意上來還是您不管是身體不舒服還是基於什麼樣的理由你只希望單純聽我講不希望回覆是不是可以請主席徵詢一下主委的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11304.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11325.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
請問主委那剛剛黃委員有提到就是說主委您是有希望說有回應還是說就單純黃國昌委員他說明然後主委日後再回應看主委的意思好我們回應好那這樣子的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11328.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11354.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
那如果他要回應的話是不是可以請他們上去要不然他們坐在那邊我站在這邊這樣不是很好吧好那就麻煩主委主委您現在身體狀況還OK嗎還好不是你會不會累或者是身體不舒服因為我剛聽到你說你身體好像有一點不太舒服我有點擔心沒有沒有現在OK齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11356.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11374.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
你如果身體不舒服隨時跟我講你要回去做就請主席才是就好其實主委講的沒有錯就是說整個國發基金每一年從累積起來是有獲利但是我們看2016年以後投資的這幾家賺錢的有六家 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11380.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11394.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
慘賠了大概19家這個是我整理到2022年的經歷拉到2023年其實狀況差不了多少那這些數字其實也不是我編出來的這些數字其實我們大概去看你們所提供的財報 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11396.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11412.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
就可以寫得出來因為裡面有一些不是上市公司裡面有一些不是上市櫃公司所以我們在外面的公開資訊找不到那我看完了以後其實我很贊成我們的總統府秘書長潘孟安在當立委的時候講過一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11413.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11434.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
他說國發基金不要成為紓困基金國發基金不要成為紓困基金那個時候民進黨在野的時候本來是希望透過法律來去管國發基金的作業要點那但是現在就沒有這樣子做嘛所以我們還是在產創條例的授權之下其實管理作業要點完全都是授權國發會 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11437.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11459.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
在訂定的法律沒有介入這個是2016年以後我們所看到的狀況我們2017年6月的時候投資了14.88億這個是主委有講當時投資的一些背景脈絡但是我為什麼說大家覺得很困惑覺得很困惑的第一個問題就是說到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11461.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11477.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我看到最新的資料到去年9月的時候已經虧了12.38億了這個是國發基金提供的資料投資了14.88億現在虧了12.38億這個是針對爐心的狀況那當然我們會去追啊追是說因為當初我在追的時候國發會說投資評估過程嚴謹可遭公信這是當時的國發會主委陳美玲在國會備詢的時候說的但這是你們提供資料以後我去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11492.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11514.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
參與投資的評估意見炮聲隆隆不是質疑就是反對不是質疑就是反對三個外省的專家意見大概都是這個樣子大概都是這個樣子那看完了這些外省意見了以後我接下來看這個是國發基金管理委員會的會議紀錄15位委員裡面有6位請假諸位 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11519.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11529.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
你會不會覺得很困惑外省的意見這麼負面15位委員有6位請假然後這個案子就這樣子過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11532.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11549.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
這個是我們希望國發基金能夠解釋的第一件事但是你是新任的主委這也不是你任內過的案子要你說明很困難所以在野的委員才會有那個提案意義那這個主委您說您需要兩個禮拜的時間回覆對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11552.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11565.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
對嘛所以我也願意啦給你們兩個禮拜的時間回復因為如希重大投資案不是代理就是請假現在我看了所有會議記錄以後我有另外一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11567.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11593.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
因為其實那個管理會應該是最後最重要的一個會議但是你看了所有的投資的紀錄以後主委你會不會發現其實絕大多數裡面的委員通常都是找代理要不然就請假很少自己來開會的主委你有沒有發現這件事還不是只有在盧鑫的案子其他的案子都這樣可以可以可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11595.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11620.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
跟委員跟跟委員報告就是這個管理會的成員有七個是部會的首長那確實憑良心講部會首長每一次都到確實有困難但是他們雖然說派代理來但是意見在內部都會去做成合然後來的這個代表是去陳述這個該部會的這個意見所以你認為每個部會都好好的去去去討論過了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11622.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11632.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
這個我們不敢替其他部會這個就是我的問題了解因為你一個管理會我們理論上它是一個最後最終做final decision的地方嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11634.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11656.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
我也坦白跟那做這個final decision的地方委員都不來那你們要不要重新的去檢討說那管理會的要點哪些人當委員這件事情我們要不要重新評估因為我其實不太想要走到最後一步走到最後一步就是現在給你們國發會定的管理作業要點全部用法律定你們希望這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11658.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11682.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
了解那就是我剛剛只是跟委員補充說為什麼那個部會會有一些代理的這個對這個就是我現在我講的還不是只有盧祥鑫的這個案子其他的案子你們全部去看通通都一樣都代理都是代理那我就覺得很奇怪啊如果都代理的話那為什麼委員要找一些明明就沒有空來開會的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11684.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11708.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
這個你們要不要再重新想一下這個代理的你如果是外部的委員他是不能代理的那代理的委員都是部會的首長的委員這個我回去來檢討看看的確您現在提到的就是我們怎麼去看看我去看一下是不是法律的問題我們有什麼樣的改善的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11710.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11738.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
可以嗎?可以可以可以這個就是問題嘛這些問題你沒有攤在陽光下面全體國人不會知道嘛那你也同意了嘛針對這個問題看了就很誇張啊因為大家都在問啊外省都是負面意見來開會的請假一堆代理的更多這個投資過到底誰要負責現在納稅人沒有辦法接受的事情是看起來是沒有人要負責嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11739.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11766.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
因為也不知道是誰做的決定因為我老實講像陳美玲這個案子她卸任了國發會主委以後她一天到晚在喊冤說她雖然是主委這案子根本不是她決定是別人決定那但是現在根本沒有人知道這一件事情到底怎麼發生誰要負責任到底誰要負責任因為現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11768.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11790.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
之前的主委龔明星說他比較倒楣被騙了我在這邊不要做什麼政治性的發言我在外面記者會全部都罵過了納稅人聽得下去聽不下去每個人心裡都有一把尺到底是國發會倒楣還是納稅人倒楣大家在問的是這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11792.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11813.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
國發基金那個時候承諾我要成立專案調查小組但不肯提供專案調查報告這個是我那個時候在追這件事情的時候客觀發生的狀況那也感謝這一次也感謝這一次我們成立了國發基金調查委員會我終於看到了當初的專案調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11815.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11829.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
我終於看到了當初的專案調查報告那個主委或者是國發主委很忙,主委可能自己沒有時間看這個調查報告那個國發基金的同仁有看過這份調查報告嗎?有啊你看了以後你的感想是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11832.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11857.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
這一個調查報告由我跟委員報告一下其實也是國發基金代表在董事會去提案你知道為什麼國發基金代表會去提案嗎是這個就是也謝謝委員指正出來所以我先停一下所以我還是要苦口婆心跟主委講一件事主委你當初你剛剛在上面報告的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11858.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11885.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
所以我要求國發會去介入人家公司的經營主委其實你這樣的發言不是很妥當我坐在上面聽了不是很舒服但沒有關係啦你可能也認為說你是執政黨的官員可能要講一些話給交代但從我的立場來講如同在你旁邊那位國發基金的同仁講當初我要求的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11887.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11914.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
國發基金的董事善盡公司法裡面所賦予董事的權責這本來就是董事應該做的事主委您認同吧董事該盡他的職責是應該的對嘛所以他就因為我提出了問題他回去董事會要求提進行調查小組嘛沒錯好那調查小組調查出來的結果我那時候追半天 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11916.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11934.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
當時國發基金都不給我完全不給我我現在終於有機會看到了我看完了以後我自己感觸很深那我只想請問國發基金的同仁你看完這個調查報告了以後你們認同那個結果嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11937.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11957.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我們必須尊重那個調查小組的報告因為裡面包括讀董包括國發基金派的代表包括會計師事務所那當時沒有提供當時我不在任但是我去看了我也是這一次看到這個調查報告裡面確實有涉及到一些機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11958.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11985.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
誰去把這個東西提供出去我們同仁確實會有那個責任直到這一次的這個調查委員會成立了來調閱資料我們也不敢貿然提供所以我們是問了這個律師的意見才提供出來然後用這個機密的這個方式處理大概就是用這樣的一個機密不機密是一回事啦現在你也問了律師了嘛你們所有的處置我都尊重啊現在我的問題是你覺得那個調查報告有反映現實嗎當初好好調查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11989.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12016.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
就我看到的董事會要他們調查的11個事項那另外他們也增加了三個事項然後哪一些不符合這個內控的這個程序或者說離職人員的這個面談分析記錄必須要留存等等這一些部分他是有這個調查報告裡面去顯現出來這一些東西那至於說我個人是不是完全滿意對不起這個部分我比較超出我的這個判斷範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12017.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12035.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
沒有啦,我其實從來不會問你們個人的看法我其實只有一個問題對於這個結果從國發基金的角度,因為國發基金不是有派董事嗎?董事總是要表達意見嘛這個董事對這個調查結果背書嗎?其實這個是我關心的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12036.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12059.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
是這個董事在那一邊是表達就是說這一些要進行改善那各個權責部門也要提報這些改善的計畫並由集合式因為我們不介入公司的這個經營嘛所以集合式定期要去追蹤改善這個進度沒有關係時間的關係我很快把我希望給你們有機會respond的問題直接給你們講 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12062.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12078.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
接下來的事情我就不管啦2018年評估要退場,這是2018年嘛評估到現在應該還在評估啦那以現在股價的狀況,我看也是很難退場了啦現在還有要退場嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12080.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12105.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
跟委員報告當時我在評估的時候他是兩塊多現在到三塊多一度到四塊但我們了解因為去年開始他轉虧為盈所以我的想法如果往下等待當時我們也找顧問公司來問如果他有機會再往上走一點那越晚賣我反而虧的少一點越早賣我虧的比較大那目前看起來以他轉虧為盈的狀態來看的話我們還會再等待一段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12108.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12119.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
你知道現在在我們投資的爐心公司有董事的爐心公司現在在中國那邊的實際負責人是誰中國的酒地東奧 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12123.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12149.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
實際負責人是誰實際負責人我並不清楚喔但是在台灣的話好那這樣子我提醒你喔我們董事會是目前是我們是是是一直但是從過去的教訓是有中信金空來目前託管從過去的教訓你應該知道嘛胡搞瞎搞全部在中國那邊胡搞瞎搞都在中國那邊你們也知道那裡出來的財報 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12151.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12177.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
數字對不對都要出現一個巨大的問號因為這個案子為什麼被大家併購表面上好像是如心去併酒地實際上根本是反向併購你根本就被人家吞了在台北這邊名義上好像總公司在這邊實際上根本不是這麼回事你把整個事情看完了以後你應該會認同我的看法但我現在要請你們回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12179.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12197.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
提醒國發基金的董事提醒一件事情因為在中國那邊的營運活動那才是實質的啦在台灣這邊只有個總部啊在台灣這邊哪裡有什麼生產營運活動沒有啊所以我才問你在中國那邊實際的負責人是誰啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12199.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12229.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
在中國那邊實際的負責人以我的了解我現在善意的提醒國發基金是被台灣法院通緝的通緝犯叫孫楊我有再講一次喔盧鑫畢案陳士修跑了嘛他跑到美國去嘛下面的財務長法務長一審被判刑了嘛這我都尊重司法程序還有另外一個很可惡的人中國的孫楊 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12232.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12247.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
他現在在台灣喔 台灣法院是通緝辦我們國發基金投的盧欽現在在中國那邊實際肯錯的人是我們台灣法院的通緝辦叫孫雅 在中國那邊這件事情國發基金有掌握嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12249.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12262.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
跟委員報告我們這邊掌握的訊息是之前孫楊是總經理那後來是換成的總經理是James Ian Harrison我們目前的了解是這樣子那中國那一邊的這個運營因為中國那邊有 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12265.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12292.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
有這個他那個組織圖我們憑良心講確實複雜啦大概有20家左右的那個子公司、孫公司然後有的做貿易有的做代工有的做這個然後還有柬埔寨、坦桑尼亞等等的我們確實憑良心講我們要一一了解每一家公司的那個我必須承認我們國發基金的這個同仁在這個部分沒有啊但是我但是你們不是有派董事去嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12293.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12315.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
所以我這樣講台灣的納稅人對於台灣的納稅人我們國發基金所投入而且當初是因為國發基金投資本市場才那麼多人跟進結果在中國胡搞瞎搞的那個人現在被台灣的法院通緝這是客觀的事實被台灣通緝的人現在在中國繼續run在中國那邊的營運國發基金覺得合適嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12320.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12349.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
那第二個問題如果覺得不合適國發基金應不應該去了解我現在還是善意的提醒我們會去查證然後進行我們必要的行動好了時間的關係我最後給你們看一個東西這個聯合再生這個我就不講了一樣外省專家砲聲隆隆這個剛在臨時提案過了你們需要兩個禮拜做說明大家都反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12350.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12365.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
大家都反對然後結果這些委員竟然通過了這個到底發生什麼事我看完資料以後我沒有辦法理解人家跟你講不要投那個有問題那你們還是投了還是投了所以才要把這個到底發生什麼事情要問清楚嘛這個納稅人應該有權利知道吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12378.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12397.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
為什麼外省專家都說不要投這有問題你們還是投了來看一下產業創新轉型基金第四次投資評估審議委員會依照公司簡報的資料2018年營收現在我還不是在講獲利或虧損單純營收 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12400.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12409.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
單純營收都沒考慮到成本營收2018年是510億2022年是980億來我們看一下實際的營收2018年沒有510億只有131億2022年也更沒有980億才188億你們有沒有看到當初的評估跟實際的數字那個落差有多大 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12428.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12454.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
主委你看了這個落差數字落差這麼大差了好幾倍現在我只有討論營收我還沒有看到成我現在營業成本跟營業費用都還沒有算你會不會覺得這個數字落差的太誇張了那當初這個評估是什麼評估是這些公司欽猜瞎瞎錢騙到就算了嗎因為我看不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12456.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12464.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
2017年決定要投資的時候說2018年營收有510億結果量出來只有131億這差太多了吧的確因為當時是四大會計事務所做的我覺得這個中間應該有需要去查核的地方有需要查核的地方嘛那一樣你們兩個禮拜以後我也不要再做臨時提案你順便回應這個問題好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12485.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12503.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
因為我真的是善意給你們機會做回應喔這個是客觀數字上面的差距沒有任何主觀的評價喔我沒有說誰收了什麼錢去做什麼壞事我單純的只是問說當初要來叫我們政府投資營收寫這樣2018要511億2022要980億阿時日計勒慘不能賭慘不能賭 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12513.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12540.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
就是因為這個樣子所以我們如果看實際的累積虧損國發基金投資以前已經虧損上百億國發基金投資以後又虧損上百億我看2024年第三季已經光第三季就虧了19億了你們現在2024年全年的財報拿到沒有因為在你們所給我們的資料裡面資料沒有你們2024年全年的財報拿到沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12544.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12563.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
連智庫都還沒拿到嗎智捷的智捷的部分拿到了沒有智捷的部分我們手邊應該是有啦但是因為會計師查核那個還沒有沒有關係你強調智捷就智捷嘛你在資本市場上面講智捷所有投資人都聽得懂他智捷出來虧多少虧21.45億虧21.45億嘛因為所有納稅人會看 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12572.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12601.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
我們在投以前就虧這麼多了結果要國發基金投資的報告裡面我不要講說從頭到尾都在偽荷蘭這樣講話太難聽了話大餅但的確是不切實際的大餅營收落差這麼多虧損就變這樣這都是客觀的數字這沒有主觀的評價現在我們只是在思考說我們的mechanism到底出了什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12603.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12629.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
當然投資沒有穩賺所以會有Forecast會有評估嘛但是當我看到評估資料又是這麼負面的時候我們還是決定要投了作為一個立法委員我只有個最根本的問題是Why為什麼主委您可以理解嗎我可以理解我可以理解好再來那個張濱工業區的今天你也有提報告嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12630.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12653.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
你既然有提報告我相信來龍去脈你很清楚我也都講過了我就不要再複述節省大家的時間但我現在要問的問題是什麼來來來你看一下右下角說因為價金是2.62億所以不用提董事會但不對啊契約總價金是4億2600多萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12657.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12681.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
我真的看了這個會議記錄我看了眼睛在冒金星他白紙黑字上面就講契約總價金是4.26億超過3億董事長可以合決的權限為什麼國發基金的董事還是同意不用經過董事會董事長就可以決了這個投資案是沒有過董事會的是董事長自己就批了 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12682.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12706.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
但是我本來以為國發基金的董事被蒙蔽但後來一查他那個投資案是4.26億契約價金嘛超過3億嘛結果竟然沒有提董事會董事長自己就決定了然後我們國發基金決議的情況是說本基金董事代表會中提問並經公司回覆洽息就這樣喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12710.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12731.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
這個是分兩件事第一個當時是用2.63億來報那因為他認為成交金額是2.63億那我們當時做了一件事情第一個事情我們是要求我們同仁道董事會提出要求降低以後就是說我們不希望這種金額會被帶過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12735.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12756.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
後來當時在董事會並沒有通過我們希望把它降低不能用3億後來我們又提一個重大決策需要提董事會這次因為我們也一樣利用這個機會在大清盤以後這裡的確是有一個可以被質疑的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12757.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12774.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
所以我們這一點也會找律師再去看過一遍那看看我們這邊能夠如果該採取任何行動我們會行動OK喔不是啊因為這個你問律師啦你看這個價錢是4.26億嘛對你不能只算現金啊對 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12776.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12797.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
你怎麼可以只算現金咧他加薪就4.26億啊不管3億是不是大概高就超過3億啦這個董事長也同意要去處理來來來然後特別股的狀況這個就是我剛剛最後跟你們講的說我在2023年的時候揭發這件事情經濟部發聲明罵我說已經買回60股份說我對公務員潑髒水哇這個指控很嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12805.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12830.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
這個指控很嚴重但沒關係這是經濟部發的聲明我不會找國發基金跟國發會沒有關係我會去找經濟部但重點是什麼重點是該公司所持的其實只有10%這就是我說你們早就知道這是在2022年9月就知道的事本基金意見你有看到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12832.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12835.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
中間那一欄有的你們早就知道是10%對我沒有說錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12840.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12860.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
我是不是跟委員報告一下因為特別股的設計它有點複雜雙方出資的比例就是1比9所以他在設計這個的部分的時候股權裡面有表決權的股權沒有表決權的股權所以我說特別股創造有控制的虛偽假象有錯嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12867.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12896.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
你那60%是假的啊你10%才是真的啊我有說錯嗎謝謝委員當時針對這個議案其實基金這邊因為有詢問過經濟部經濟部對於聯合再生這個股權的處理方式他其實最後的結論是免於同意啦所以那時候基金不是啦所以你們等於是經濟部要你們配合就對了是不是沒有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12897.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12914.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
沒有沒有不是這個意思沒有因為當時是經濟部回經濟部是免於來來來來來再看下一張你有沒有看到我用紅框框起來的字說這個跟經濟部6月24號同意函的內容未符有看到嗎呃有你有看到嗎這裡這裡這個這個這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12925.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12951.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
與MOEA是什麼就是經濟部嘛英文說寫嘛6月24號同意內容未符嘛有看到嗎有他簡報不就有寫了實際有表決權的只有10%嘛經濟部當初的同意函是要他有控制權嘛所以他上面寫說跟經濟部的同意函未符嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12953.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12962.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
為什麼我說你們早知道因為這是你們提供的文件啊上面還有人在上面寫這個字我就很好奇你們知不知道上面這個字是誰寫的我們回去查好不好好然後一樣兩個禮拜之內回覆等一下我會讓你講我講白話文你們早就知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12977.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13002.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
跟經濟部的要求不符甚至有人用手寫在這個簡報上你們可以下去查你們回去的原本這個絕對不是我偽造變造的你們回去查你們的原本因為你們提供給立法院的是銀本吧你們回去查你們的原本原本上面是不是有這個字那你們國發會的人上面就在簡報上面寫說這個跟經濟部的要求不符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13003.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13015.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
跟經濟部的要求不符合還是放水讓他過我看不懂啊所以我剛才又問啊說是不是經濟部叫國發會要放水那要不然這個怎麼過的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13022.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13050.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
主委你有看到嗎這個我有看到我也跟委員報告齁我待會可以給你你們應該有帶嗎我們我有要求他們在下次董事會齁要求他把這個部分進行改善我們有這個提案齁你們有沒有帶有帶那個沒有主委主委主委主委我等一下就給你看其實我已經交代了這件事了我再跟您強調一次喔我知道這不是你任內發生的我也沒有要你背這個鍋 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13052.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13070.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
但我覺得這些事情要查清楚要不然根本亂了套這根本亂了套我看東西看很細的我看東西看很細的我那時候在看到這個簡報上面看到這個文字那代表你們的人早就知道他們的改善方案跟經濟部的要求不符但還是過了這就是我的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13080.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13093.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
主委可以嗎這個我來查一下因為我之前不知道這個訊息但是我有注意到他只有甲種特別股跟乙種特別股那他只有百萬支持所以我2023年就注意到結果我注意到以後開記者會被經濟部痛罵說我 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13098.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13123.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
說我在講假訊息對公務員潑髒水我2023年就注意到了我2023年就揭發這件事結果當初經濟部說我在對公務員潑髒水您到2025年也注意到這件事情我講的都是真的但我現在的問題是什麼當初大家早就知道了我不是說你早就知道了因為我現在搞不清楚這個字是誰寫但可以證明一件事情從這個簡報 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13125.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13153.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
早就自帶有10%而且白紙黑字寫跟經濟部的要求不符主委這需要多久的時間這一樣給我們兩個禮拜好不好一樣嘛就兩個禮拜連今天臨時提案的事項一併書面回覆好嗎好今天我想就先到這裡啦我也不要讓主委太疲乏我再強調一次善意給你們respond的機會在調查報告正式做以前好謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13160.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13180.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
謝謝好那個謝謝國發會的主委那我們今天登記提問的委員已發言完畢報告及提問結束那臨時提案所做的決議就請主管機關國發會按照剛剛決議的內容還有剛剛口頭詢問你們答應要補充的內容提供本次會議到此結束散會謝謝 |