| IVOD_ID |
165534 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165534 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-4-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期第9次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期第9次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-18T11:32:46+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-18T11:48:10+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:24 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/15ce70573aea8c15f2419fafa27907de02704d746941b037c41b491b5b6fc7ada1c492a21a7eb66e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
沈伯洋 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:32:46 - 11:48:10 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-18T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第4會期第9次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院民進黨黨團，針對第11屆第1會期第9次會議報告事項第33案委員丁學忠等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」院會所作之決定提出復議。是否有當？請公決案等16案。二、行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告「中央政府花蓮馬太鞍溪堰塞湖災後重建特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢（11月18日上午）。三、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢（11月18日下午）。四、11月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。） |
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謝謝院長有請卓院長謝謝麻煩再請卓院長備詢三國院好院長好這個剛剛前面其實也有聽到就是我覺得今天當然我們能夠針對馬太安這個重新特別條例來討論當然是好事但還是有很多政治的口水 |
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34.793 |
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那很多人會講說就是這個預算的問題這讓我想到一件蠻重要的事就是我們在這一個整個防災跟撤離的這個過程當中不管是我們的村長、里長等等之類的如果他們有更充分針對這些的訓練的話其實說真的也有可能會有更好的減災的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
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但是其實在去年的時候不管是我們的民防的學校民力的訓練在內政委員會的時候都被凍結或者被刪除我覺得這其實是一件很糟糕的事情因為任何的人不要說是村長里長任何的人只要在當時有受過訓練或者有更好的意識 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
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或者我們比如說我們本來規劃的緊急應變中隊等等之類的這一些都有可能會有更好的減災效果所以這件事情讓我想到雖然我等一下有很多細節要問但我現在覺得最麻煩的事情是等於是去年我們針對預算針對民力民防這部分的訓練支被砍被凍結這件事情它已經實質產生了影響 |
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95.962 |
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119.984 |
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但接下來我們在編列預算今年要編列明年預算的時候就遇到了舊版的才化法我說的舊版就是今年通過那一個還有現在才剛通過的熱騰騰的這個有問題的才化法這兩個才化法會讓我們在編列預算的時候出了非常大的問題這個等於是說你不用等到我們在審查預算的時候在那邊砍預算動預算它在一開始我們在編列的時候就會出問題 |
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121.085 |
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146.873 |
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一旦出了問題之後呢接下來不管是我們制度上的一個建立我們相關的訓練或者我們在甚至擠壓到其他的預算方面這個明年如果又有因為天災是我們不知道是不可控的嘛它一旦發生的話那又會出問題所以我想先問比較大的一個問題我知道前面培育委員有問到一點就是針對我們現在又有一個新的惡法的才化法的一個通過現在行政院有什麼因應的方式 |
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是剛剛陳錄委員所說的上禮拜五通過的這個我說黨版的國民黨黨版的財化法編列上都會出現問題我剛剛說過了他會造成我們如果按照這個標準來編明年的中央政府總預算會出現五千六百億的舉債那已經超過公債法的上限所以這個已經不是有沒有辦法執行的問題是有沒有辦法編列的問題問題已經呈現在這裡而且 |
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177.597 |
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197.071 |
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上禮拜五的那個內容完全沒有辦法解決過去所謂公事錯誤垂直水平分配不合理不平均的這樣的狀況所以這個也是執行不得的所以真的是自愛難行我們沒有辦法來執行這樣的工作所以我是希望說禮拜四當我們送出行政院版本的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
198.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
222.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
委員們能夠再詳細的看看這個內容我們這個版本的內容能不能更普遍照顧到各縣市是不是在中央地方的市權分配上更合理是不是在各縣市的分配更平均同時中央地方能夠有更加強的夥伴關係等等這樣的原則如果能夠從事的檢視的話那至於禮拜五的那個就讓他我想技術上用意思處理是可以的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
224.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
243.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
需要做到什麼程度行政院現在保持各種的可能性但是我唯一的就是依照那樣的版本我們編不出預算無法執行我真的覺得我覺得重整一下這必須要讓國人知道去年我們遇到大量的這個凍結跟刪除預算他就是已經讓你不能夠做事了 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
243.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
264.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
然後接下來新的這個財化法會讓我們連編列預算都出問題這是第二次了第三次是現在這一個財化法它根本就讓你連編列都已經不能編列了它已經超過了這個舉債的上限所以這樣的一個問題我說真的我其實在民間已經看到因為我自己是法律出身的我看到越來越多的法律學者都已經在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
265.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
283.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
就是說這個行政院如果遵守下去的話這個行政院會違法就比如說行政院要用違法的方式去編列預算但是後面又不能夠執行應該有的項目我覺得這絕對是一個大問題行政院如果要編這樣的標準內容的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
284.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
304.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我們的主計總書就不會同意因為他超過了公債法財政部也不會同意啊所以我們編不出來好退一萬步講如果我們違法編出來了真的違法編出來了我們承受這樣的責任那明年我當中央政府被大幅的拿走統籌分配稅款又大幅的拿走這個一般型補助跟計畫型補助之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
305.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
322.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
中央的國庫會縮小到很小明年我們沒有辦法做很多現在應急性的再說如果明年還要做特別預算的話那我們明年還必須更擴大中央政府的財政雖然他不列在公司案法裡面但實際上就是擴大了整個國家的財政 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
323.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
342.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那大家不是說不要再留子孫為什麼一定要做這樣的工作那拿去給地方的4156億到底做了什麼事情到現在沒有一個地方可以清楚的告訴他多拿了這些他要多做什麼事情我們只是告訴他說中央地方的事權要分清楚地方就跳起來營養午餐不能出 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
342.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
357.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
水電費不能出他都沒想到他幾百億就專注在這個一兩億兩三億的這個錢上面所以中央地方的事情一定要清楚明年我們將沒有辦法在這樣的情況底下有任何的中央調節能力我們也不能再擴大政府的債務了 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
358.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
386.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我必須要講這個聽起來已經是一個我們在法律講這個叫做例外狀態例外狀態的意思就是說我記得在去年的時候這一個我記得是副會長有講過要讓政府找不到官就找不到有人來做官這個已經體現在很多的人事案上面那接下來其實現在我們面臨這樣的作為他就已經在癱瘓整個政府的財政了然後他要逼迫政府用違法的方式去做政策上的一個執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
386.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
415.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
然後甚至到我們剛剛講的已經沒有辦法編列預算來做事這個事情如果說政府直接被貪換掉我們跟其他國家不一樣不能說政府關門就關門而且我們畢竟是面臨有在外患外國威脅的狀況之下所以如果是這個樣子的話它如果是一個例外狀態我認為行政院是可以考慮很多學者的建議然後來做這個相對應的回擊那不然的話這個國家沒有辦法運作下去這不是開玩笑的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
416.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
444.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那當然我們現在呢就是因為2026已經快到了我們必須一定要現在正視這個問題但因為畢竟花蓮這個事情災民還是很重要所以接下來我問一些比較細節性的部分第一個部分就是我放在這個上面就是中繼屋的問題剛剛其實前面就已經問到了我就不多重複就是說已經有先盤點比如說有八十幾戶他們有這樣的一個需求然後我知道應該還有進一步再問說到底有誰因為八十幾戶是我們看到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
444.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
464.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
但是實際需要的目前聽起來應該是40但是我看到這一個相關的報告裡面有說在年底的時候大概能夠建造到是30那什麼時候才能夠到40、50不一定到50啦因為目前有需求的說到40那這個期程大概是什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
465.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
490.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
因為中繼屋它是一種組合屋的概念所以速度非常快那除了這個30戶之外還有台塘那邊宿舍用了大概11戶所以有需求會很快速而且那塊地也夠大那塊地有1.5公頃那麼估算可以如果要完全使用大概200戶以上都沒問題所以地已經找好了有需求隨時可以加速來完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
491.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
513.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那我之所以問這個問題還有一個原因就是因為0403那時候也有一些中繼的需求但是那個0403地震那個時候那一次有一些中繼的那個中繼屋它是很晚才開始出現這當然跟需求有關係因為我知道前面有比較多的租屋補助甚至有些人就是往外圍去居住但這次有比較不一樣是因為第一個有部落 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
514.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
522.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
然後也要尊重原住民他們的一些共識目前來講跟這些討論的過程當中有沒有符合他們的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
523.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
549.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這一部分內政部內政部跟當地都有召開會議基本上有共識的就是不能離開光復鄉太遠所以台塘那塊地已經夠近而且位置也比較高就是如果說再有洪水我們不希望有但是那塊地是比現行的受災區那邊已經夠高了他們已經一開始就跟當地溝通了 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
550.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
574.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所以會逐步來解決當地的需求包括將來是否要異地來做耕種那個也都是後續的方案不過剛剛講到溝通這件事情就是說我們在跟 我辦公室也在花蓮有時候會遇到災民講說他們對於現在的政策不是那麼的清楚就是說其實我們現在該有的圖卡該有的論述 新聞上面我覺得是講得清楚但有時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
574.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
603.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
不是大家每天都在翻報紙嘛對不對或者每天在LINE上面接圖卡這是不可能的事情所以呢像這一個我知道農業部在這個禮拜五有應該要召開一些相關的這個說明會那不知道因為目前來講第一個就是我們剛剛講需求就是說他們對於中繼屋啊等等之類的那他們對遠一點他們也會想說好那個霸體現在應該怎麼處理這個跟林保有關然後有一些是跟水利署有關在經濟部這一邊有沒有一種比較一體式的說明能夠在當地 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
605.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
632.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
讓大家更能夠明瞭現在政府的政策因為行政院有成立專案匯報那已經統合了各部會成立了各功能分組那麼有設執行秘書有三個副執行秘書其中一個副執行秘書就是行政院東部服務中心的洪主任所以三個副執行秘書都會跟相關的部會去進行那將來我們會依照委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
634.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
655.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
會在光復鄉那邊在設置固定的跟東辦合作設置固定的場所來接受村民的這個詢問或者是直接比較完整的說明會那我們會去那邊來辦理就是除了農業部的內政部的或園民會的將來整個比較完整的政策跟規劃也會去徵詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
658.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
683.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個地方的意見跟說明這個是有必要的對 因為我們畢竟我們大家都是人民公僕啦我們就是當人民有這些反應的時候他們覺得不清楚的時候我們應該都有義務去說明那畢竟我們中央的部會分成非常多因為這次跟災害有關的部會實在太多了那我們這一邊這次的通力合作的確也在這個院長還有在紀政委的這個指揮之下運作是很順暢但是人民他不會去分這些部會所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
684.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
707.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
一體式的這種說明農業部這個禮拜五說明嘛對不對我記得是嘛禮拜五所以就是說如果能夠更多的部會一次性的告訴大家我們就是要做什麼這個對人民接收諮詢來講我認為是特別的重要當時陳金德政委在光復鄉成立的一站式的服務好像很快的效力那現在這個協調會報也是由陳金德政委來主持我想他會用同樣的精神當然規模不會那麼大同樣的精神讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
709.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
714.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
能夠大家整體性的了解到我們對不同身份的人可以提供什麼樣的協助這個我們會做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
715.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
738.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這點就再拜託了另外一個就是可能要問一下交通部這個問題其實不是太過於困難就是因為這個便橋現在是被沖那目前來講是說大概10天嘛10天之內能夠把它完成25號就可以完成那這個中間的這個替代方案現在是如何就是到25號之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
739.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
761.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
報告委員他其實只能用原來的繞的嗎有其他的替代道路啦台11線 台11丁 台11甲都可以走有其他替代道路但我們鐵路的部分一樣是保持暢通的所以鐵公路其實都還是有路可以走那當時就是說因為會有鋼變嘛對不對然後之後會有永久性的嘛那因為這一件事情他會不會delay到後面的這個騎乘 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
763.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
791.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
包括他後面不會去delay到我們現在就是變道的部分再趕快讓他恢復那鋼變橋的部分我們這次有看過我們打的那個樁鋼樁並沒有受到影響也沒有移動到所以不會影響到這個鋼變橋明年1月底要完成的這個時程後面的也不會提交到因為很多民眾在問這個就又回到我剛剛講的如果在一次性的說明會的時候都能夠逐步的這些資訊都能夠說明的話對他們來講第一個就會比較安心 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
791.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
815.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
第二個假消息的散播他們也不容易相信因為他已經知道說這個中央都有一提示的說明過那這個接下來我想再問一下就是這一次名利村的這個事情就是說剛剛其實前面我看很多委員提到就是因為這個河床的這個高度啦這個所以這個細節我就不再問前面有委員問過那因為現在是要做紓菌紓菌的時候也會有一些變道 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
815.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
831.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那這些變道也有可能會成為破口所以目前來講我覺得是不是請因為剛好經濟部走上來就是說關於水利署這方面可不可以再一次的來說明說現在我們這一邊的應對方案是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
833.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
854.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
就是我們現在先把那個堤防先做起來延伸先做然後短期間先做起來然後同時也輸進是持續在做所以這個同時在做的那當時就是說在判斷上面因為我看到因為我們一直把這個火力一直集中在下游這邊因為是當時發生嘛那這一次在發生的時候呢是有誤判還是說這其實是在預料範圍之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
860.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
883.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
包圍因為它那個堤防是不是沒有它是原來就沒有它是在已經靠近邊坡了那主要原因這次水很大下來那我們的確是集中在下雨那個部分然後在那個便橋後來那個泥沙太強了把那個便橋的全部都堵起來堵起來以後水它就往上蔓延所以蔓延上去的時候它就會從那一個沒有做那個流出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
885.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
910.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
是這樣的狀況我覺得這個在判斷上面因為我們的確資源有限所以我們針對像這個光復箱這次發生的情形大家一直在想說要在預防它發生但的確你看會有這個類似回賭的這個狀況然後才會導致這一個這次名利村發生這樣的現象那我覺得不管如何我們針對這些的事情我們當時的判斷如果我們有少了什麼我們下一次就一定要多加注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
911.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
922.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
還有跟民眾的說明其實也是一樣他們也要知道這個相關的風險我最後只剩幾秒鐘所以後續有一些跟這個震災相關的我可能再跟衛福部溝通謝謝謝謝委員謝謝沈博焱 |