| IVOD_ID |
165530 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165530 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-4-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期第9次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期第9次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-18T09:42:12+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-18T09:57:38+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:26 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/15ce70573aea8c157bfa19358ba2dcfc02704d746941b037f3e180e0dcccc9c6bf8cd4fcca9df8855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳培瑜 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:42:12 - 09:57:38 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-18T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第4會期第9次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院民進黨黨團，針對第11屆第1會期第9次會議報告事項第33案委員丁學忠等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」院會所作之決定提出復議。是否有當？請公決案等16案。二、行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告「中央政府花蓮馬太鞍溪堰塞湖災後重建特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢（11月18日上午）。三、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢（11月18日下午）。四、11月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。） |
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好謝謝院長那有請卓院長謝謝麻煩再請卓院長備詢陳委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
20.492 |
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35.58 |
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好院長早院長我們今天這個條例叫馬太安溪顏色湖災後重建特別預算既然叫做特別預算我其實關鍵想要先問一問預算尤其是財化法的困境院長我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
36.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
57.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
很遺憾上個禮拜五在立法院三讀通過那主要這個在野黨委員提案的版本我必須說非常的遺憾因為就直接淨附二讀沒有交付協商沒有交付在委員會實質討論而且這個通過才化法我認為更加荒謬的是什麼呢原本呢離島的立委們也就是陳雪生跟陳玉珍他們一直說計算公式有誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
58.007 |
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86.947 |
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所以導致該分配給他們的沒有分配所以甚至進到委員會進行實質協商可是很荒謬的是到了禮拜五國民黨團竟然提出來要針對一般性補助款要求行政院要再加碼再加碼加碼再加碼加到我都已經很想問他說你到底為什麼認為行政院會這麼有錢呢如果用一個最簡單的算盤來算一算行政院今年為了協助台灣各地的災變包含丹納斯包含馬太安西還包含這一次非洲竹蚊 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
87.307 |
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116.273 |
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我認為行政院在特別預算已經花了很多很多錢而回到財化法它是一個長年要實質好好運作中央跟地方必須要分工分錢講清楚但很可惜在野黨通過我不想代替在野黨委員跟行政院道歉但我認為在野黨委員應該要跟全國人民道歉所以雖然今天的主題是馬太安西但是我還是要拜託院長可不可以花一點時間讓我們知道假設這個財化法執意的這樣通行下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
116.874 |
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125.776 |
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甚至搞不好這個禮拜五他們還會針對離島那個部分再來要錢要錢再要錢加碼再加碼掏空再掏空到底會發生什麼事情院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
126.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
150.887 |
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好 謝謝委員雖然特別預算基本上不受公債法第五條總統的規定跟債務的額度是可以脫離的但是每一筆特別預算不是用我們的稅計剩餘到時候去舉債那我們把稅計剩餘全部用完之後未來每一筆的特別預算它都是會擴大國家政府的舉債 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
152.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
180.347 |
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以明年的中央政府總預算三兆零三百五十億來看我們已經舉債了三千億我們已經舉債了三千億如果按照上週立法院所通過的國民黨黨版的財政收支發分法我們必須在計劃型補助裡面再多增加舉債兩千六百億換句話說我們如果完全接受這樣一個修法的話明年的中央政府總預算會舉債五千六百億 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
181.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
208.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這個已經超出違反了公債法第五條的規定所以我跟委員報告行政院編不出來這樣的預算無法編列不得違法編列無法執行這個通過的國民黨黨版的財政收支劃分法好 院長我非常認同你的說法但是我很好奇院長你有沒有想過國民黨或是民眾黨團接下來會對行政院做出什麼樣的事情我們難以想像對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
210.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
234.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我曾經想過我怕他們不做午夜夢回的時候我真的想不出來國民黨團或是民眾黨團會在做什麼事情而且我剛已經提醒院長囉還有那個原本離島的要分的345億這件事情也還沒有搞定喔所以我真的不知道而且我當然希望台灣是一個風調雨順的地方可是天災難免對嗎好像這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
235.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
262.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我剛說今年就這三大天災人禍包含台中非洲豬瘟這個部分我都認為當地方第一時間沒有辦法把事情做好而中央非常勇於任事的把事情攬到自己身上然後還派不同的政委然後各個部會的部長幾乎都要協同溝通然後同時支援第一線還要負責中央的業務但是我們卻看到不斷的把錢要掏出去給地方這真的真的非常不合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
263.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
292 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那行政院後續會有什麼救濟的手段嗎針對我剛說過這樣一個違反公債法的修正案我們無法照這個內容來編列所以我很希望我們禮拜四行政院院會會通過行政院院版的財政收支劃分法那裡面有五項原則這五項原則第一個就是會讓國人的生活品質更均衡第二個會讓垂直的劃分更合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
292.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
316.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
第三個 會讓水平的分配更公平第四個 會讓地方自主更強化第五個 會讓中央地方夥伴關係更提升我們用這五個原則定定了未來的財政收入發分法我希望禮拜四行政院通過的這個財政收入發分法送到大院來的時候能夠大家審慎來看這個內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
318.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
343.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
如果未來這個院版的財政授權發布法能夠讓地方更均衡不再有那種特別優異的把所有財政弱的縣市都能提升上來我希望大家共同來接受如果未來的這個財政授權法能讓中央地方的垂直的地方市權 中央市權的劃分更為明確中央做中央的 地方做地方的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
344.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
371.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
前中央該補助的就指定補助該提出計畫的就按照計畫該設算的就按照設算那這個財政收支發放法才是長治久安之道我希望立法院能夠審慎的來看這個財政收支法院版的財政收支發放法我非常認同剛剛院長說的五個原則我想我身為一個在立法院的立法委員我也要公開喊話再次喊話喊院長院長錯誤就留在立法院吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
372.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
397.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
禮拜四行政院會就要送過最新的才化法我認為大家真的可以坐下來討論因為連侯友宜新北市長都公開的說錢跟權要講清楚大家才可以好好做事如果連侯友宜都站出來呼籲我認為有更多的國民黨當地的黨工職應該也可以認同這個說法那當然我們現在看到各個地方都會開始使出一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
399.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
425.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
較窮的手段一副要壓榨勤勒行政院一樣就像昨天基隆市長說欠房子 欠房子都要回去了這個也非常的荒謬因為實質上新版的財化法通過之後各個縣市拿到的錢都只會更多更多再更多如果再把禮拜五通過的一般補助款再加上去基隆這個案例絕對不會欠房子欠房子都要回去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
426.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
453.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
以基隆为例台北新北都是如此更何况有非常多财政困难的县市如我熟悉的花莲其实钱也会多非常非常多再加上这个今天本来要讨论300亿其实很多花莲当地的议员也都在提醒这么多的预算我们花莲县政府真的有能力执行吗所以我认为这后续有这么多钱会不会反而我们本来以为要解决问题但其实是制造更多的问题所以我要公开呼吁拜托韩院长 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
453.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
478.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
也要拜託在野黨黨團禮拜四行政院的版本送出來之後我真的認為我們應該要坐下來好好討論但是要謝謝院長您任重道遠我們立法院這邊會一起努力兩個問題跟委員答覆第一個我上禮拜在這個地方已經說過總諮詢結束的前後我會拜訪韓院長去談財化法的內容但上週五卻用這種火速而且淨富惡毒的方式來通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
479.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
485.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
不讓韓院長跟我有任何談話的機會我想這個是天大的遺憾第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
486.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
510.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
院版的裁判法跟保證未來對地方的協助在統籌分配稅款以及一般型補助甚至加上未來的計畫性補助絕對會比現在多這就是我們的設算這個設算才是公平的只要我們有機會有時間把這個跟地方也談過我們充分討論的案子能夠送出來的話應該會得到大家的支持才對 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
510.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
537.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
院長我們再抓一個重點你剛說如果我們可以坐下來好好跟地方討論過應該就是一個可以實行的版本嘛目前為止到底我們跟地方開了多少的會啊地方的主計應該都知道發生了什麼事情可是我很好奇為什麼他們的老闆各個縣市首長包含蔣萬安啊包含謝國良都出來挨叫難道他們的主計都沒有回去跟他們的市長報告嗎還是說行政院這邊在跟他們各地的主計討論的時候其實有遇到一些實質的困難目前的進度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
538.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
554.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
包括今天下午這一場我所知道的至少有六場那詳細的部分是不是請莊部長來說好部長謝謝跟委員報告才化法的修正其實我們多次召開跟地方政府的協商包括分配的指標跟權重都有做詳細的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
556.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
578.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那另外他们对于115年所分配的中央统筹分配税款已大幅增加但都不提这一块而只会喊计划性的补助款减少事实上中央统筹分配税款在115年已经多支出4165亿这个大额的支出事实上有很多必须要回归到地方自治事项去做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
580.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
606.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
幾個重點一個其實已經花了非常多時間討論他們不是不知道這是一個第二個他們只不講多拿走統籌的部分他們一直喊的是計劃型補助拿不回去喔我認為後續的討論這些應該更多資訊要公開讓國人知道不能放任地方縣市首長亂哀亂叫亂喊窮但是他們的市民根本不知道以台北為例之前的數字是多拿走了400多億對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
607.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
624.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
台北市是拿到是比原來多出400多億而且他以單一的盈利事業營業額這個單一指標所增加的金額就比114年各項指標合計的中央統合分配稅款還要多所以他是增加最多的一個市 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
625.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
644.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
但很可惜最先出來喊窮的說冷氣付不出來的或者是各式各樣教育補助沒有辦法支應的其實也是台北市我是為台北市民雖然我的小孩現在已經不在國民教育階段但是我還是感到非常的遺憾我真的想要拜託這些藍營的縣市首長當然還有白營的拜託坐下來你們就好好的談 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
646.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
675.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我就先講到這邊但才化法我真的要再度拜託韓院長我們禮拜五三讀通過的錯誤荒謬的版本就讓他留在立法院我認為這是院長可以為全台灣2300萬人民做的最好的一件事情我接下來用這個概念我想要談一下花蓮後續的重建這300億的事情我們就直接跳到再下一張好再來再下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
676.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
700.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
再下一張好我想要談這個其實現在因為要開始重建了預算要開始下去了我非常接下來非常感謝政委我相信您在後續的重建工程當中你會花費非常多的心力必須要跟縣市政府溝通必須要跟當地的很多團體溝通甚至要跨部會協同聯繫很多各個部會積極的協助地方重建但是我們現在聽到另外一個對於花蓮過往 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
701.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
716.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
財政紀律的擔憂啊過往大家認為花蓮縣政府在執行很多地方預算的時候呢有一點浮誇有一點一般人民看不懂包含那個非常神秘的這個地磚昂貴的這個地磚鋪在我們花蓮市中央這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
717.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
735.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那大家很擔心後續回到光復鄉這個重建會不會有很多也是人民看不懂的建設但是相關地方主管把錢花在自己喜歡的項目上但是一般民眾並不了解甚至呢剪彩的時候都說是他自己的努力但是做不好的時候就丟給地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
736.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
759.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以政委這邊我想要先主動積極的建議我們如何納入地方的聲音因為現在在部落裡面他們有部落開始串聯部落年輕代表還有不同年齡階層當然部落的代表跟原來的村里長系統是不一樣的但是過往在一些當地的委員所舉辦的座談會當中他說他要傾聽民意 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
759.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
784.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
他说要把民意带到中央但是那个民意是关起门来的来 下一张关起门来了只有他们认同的某些人才能够进去那个说明会里头也变成当地民意被包装过被垄断过甚至被粉饰太平就是我下一条影片这一张所以我想要问一下政委我们后续的重建工程当中不管是从中央层级或是地方层级我们如何广纳灾民的意见广纳部落的意见 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
785.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
805.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
好 謝謝委員這裡面的預算執行大部分都是中央單位在執行那其中有一部分當然是涉及到地方的部分比方說對農業 農田的災損補助等等那這個是中央的經費但是透過比方說地方的農會或者縣政府的農業處他們來 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
808.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
827.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
來受理申請然後來發放比方說有關這個水溝就是下水道跟這個污水處理這個當然是中央的預算可以補助地方來做但是地方來代那中央來代辦也可以其他包括便道橋樑輸菌 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
829.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
857.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
還有將來的防洪設施等等這個都是中央單位在執行的絕大部分都是中央單位在執行中央單位執行就是已經參與原來的搶災應變的這些單位對地方已經很了解對現場已經很了解對現場的了解再根據這些來規劃那麼來編列預算我想每一筆錢都會很謹慎的很有效的來使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
858.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
884.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
對這個部分其實我沒有擔心啦因為從之前呢從次長到政委到院長都直接下去副總統也是但其實我要說當地的部落現在已經有些不同的聲音出來如果參考很多國際上這種大型重建的案例大家認為工程這當然必然要做這是確實是一部分很耗預算但是如何把當地的文化跟社區所在意的一些事情也納入後續的重建尤其是硬底重建完之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
884.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
910.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
還有所謂的軟體重建任性恢復這件事情其實真的有賴中央各個部會在溝通的時候甚至有一些預算它到縣市政府層級去執行的時候也希望可以納入地方代表的聲音這部分要拜託政委多加用心這部分包括農業部 內政部 園民會都在當地舉辦社區的說明會那麼會納入這個地方的需求包括園民的希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
912.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
924.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這個離災不離鄉或是中繼宰的相關的主張我想每個部會都有下去辦理說明會會中整這些意見來做最有效最有利於地方的安排好 以上謝謝好 謝謝陳培瑞資訊謝謝卓院長 |