| IVOD_ID |
165512 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165512 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
11 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-17T11:10:02+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-17T11:27:15+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:13 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab39bfe157d564361fbfb6dfa65ed0fc1d80df8a4d5e0e61e356a65096fc31f86f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
劉建國 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:10:02 - 11:27:15 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查
(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。
(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。
(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。
(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。
(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。
(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。
(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。
(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。
(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。
(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。
(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。
(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。
二、審查
(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。
(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。
(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。
【綜合詢答，僅詢答】） |
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好謝謝主席有請黃部長有請黃部長國庫署羅祖密主計總署黃專維 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
17.733 |
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來 部長早部長 勞保這顆炸彈原本從可能是2026、2028要爆炸對不對然後在精算之後目前預估是在2031年會炸了所以大家應該還有一點喘息的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
37.348 |
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我這麼說你應該能夠理解我要表達的意思是 但是2031這數字因為它其實還是有很多前提的條件啊2031的那時候是今年上半年的精算的報告那它的前提是我們在一個不一定很不是很高的這個投資的收益率然後還有往後都今年以後都不撥補的情況下才是2031年 |
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61.385 |
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不是很高的收益率然後沒有確定穩定的這個撥補有可能嘛對不對就是這兩個因素他是設定今年以後都沒有撥補才是2031反正就是今年以後有這兩個狀況可能就會提早到2031年嘛應該是這麼說嘛這兩個因素如果發生了就可能2031年就要倒了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
84.771 |
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111.022 |
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按照精算 精算報告是這樣寫當然我們不能讓它發生所以我們才持續的在撥補 也希望把收益率提高對 所以我才要跟你討論就這兩項問題來討論嘛就這兩個層面問題第一個 我還是用這樣來表達就好像一個絕症的病人你一直用持續這種無效的醫療去救治他坦白說啦 到最終 到最終只是 只是苟延殘喘可能多半年 多一年 |
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112.202 |
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139.513 |
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諸如此類 就像你那種 你剛剛講的那兩個因素如果不見了 就是這兩種特效藥如果其中有一項不見了 那當然可能就提早結束他的生命嘛 我用這來隱喻啦然後 但如果病人要活著的時候醫師要想把他救治 基本上我們是立法院是作為治理國家政策的一個單位 那我們這個單位當然我們要自行啦 我們要自行 來看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
140.443 |
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164.322 |
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看待到底這個勞保這個部分這個基金應該怎麼去做一個因應跟改善改變的一個方式然後提出這樣的一個建言也給勞動部來做參考我最後要講的就是說政府撥補幫勞保基金來續命前提不會有人反對啦政府負最終的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
165.511 |
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189.017 |
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大家都會舉雙腳贊成對不對但是如果每年都要這麼補到底是要補多久到底是要補多久然後如果是常態性的這樣補那當時設立這個勞保基金的目的跟現在的這種處理的方式那顯然不是已經都已經變樣了 |
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192.173 |
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209.916 |
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走鐘了嘛然後我才要跟部長來就較這幾個問題嘛第一個我們現在看這個勞保基金的規模大致上是一兆一兆一千多億嘛一兆二下半年突破一兆二 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
211.836 |
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228.97 |
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你是怎樣 怎麼不會動你是聽到快倒了所以你很緊張是不是然後這個老闆請找債務是13兆多嘛對不對 沒有錯嘛目前所以就將近10倍了 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
232.117 |
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242.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
將近10倍出了那救治的軍工教育人員的退休金是3兆然後這個公務人員的退休補習金是差不多在2兆左右嘛主席總書這應該沒有問題嘛 對不對這數據正確嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
247.295 |
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259.61 |
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這數據正確吧OK 好 謝謝我為什麼要用這來比喻因為這也是根據組織總署截至6月底的統計指出台灣中央及地方政府潛藏負債總計來到20.5兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
262.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
282.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我如果有數字上的一些川普你要提醒好不好然後這是潛藏的債務而且台灣目前的國債也高達6兆多然後但台灣一年的整個這個付稅才收入也才3兆多我是用這樣的一個財務條件來看待這個事情如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
283.174 |
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298.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我們一般的家庭要知道有這樣的狀況就必須要尊潔支出然後請到省值花但是如果有多餘的進帳就要趕緊來補這個缺口沒有錯嘛所以你應該都可以認同我的講法嘛沒有問題嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
299.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
319.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
所以在112年全國共同努力下台灣度過三年的疫情邁入後疫情時代台灣整體的經濟發展在疫情時對比其他國家仍屬於前段班然後蔡政府當時有提出疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算案3800億還普發了6000元這個大家應該記憶猶新嘛而且也特別編列300億 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
328.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
353.994 |
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補勞工保險基金沒有錯啦好 對今年換了新政府我們因應國際情勢強化這個經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算高達5450億也普花1萬元給民眾結果不僅台電沒有辦法接受撥補聯勞保基金在這次特別預算也僅撥補100億 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
357.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
363.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
沒有錯嘛 今年對 上次預扣的特別預算3800億撥補勞保300億 佔當時的預算是7.9%這一次5400多億是這個3800億的1.43倍 結果只撥補100億佔比僅1.83% |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
383.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
397.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
部長什麼原因你沒有積極爭取你不重視各位你說不是因為第一個當然因為這明年的明年的公務預算裡面我們已經爭取1200的這個1200億的撥補的金額所以其實這跟當時在那個112年或者是111年當時的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
411.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
440.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
其實也會有不同 所以整體來說其實我們現在撥補的金額並沒有比較少那當然這是再加上這個這次特別預算裡面的100億我都用特別預算來跟你講嘛 對不對我用特別預算來對照嘛 1200 1000不談我就用特別預算來對照嘛發3800億的時候可以撥補到300億5000多的時候只有撥補到100億那基本上就是減少嘛所以你講的兩個因素就會擔心嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
442.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
467.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
對不對 一千兩百一千不談嘛 就只用特別預算來對照我們會盡量再來跟主總爭論所以我知道很多不是不是部長的因素啦但是我還是提醒部長可能要更積極來做相關的運營也可能要跟行政院講說過去有這樣的數字 有這樣的撥補那現在這個特別預算的規模更大高達之前的特別預算是1.43倍怎麼可能反而在這個撥補的金額去縮小了 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
473.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
501.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以這部分提醒部長那我再給部長看兩件事情看一個訊息這是兩位教授講的那第一個是陳教授改革要多管齊下除了政府撥補投資效益基金投資效益讓基金維持一定在水位下政府也可以舉在仿效挪威的成立主權基金把這個收益專管專用及強化社會保障另外一個是郝教授長期而言老闆還是要啟動年輕改革初期對薪金流量影響不大所以應在年改前啟動儲備基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
503.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
516.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
一個是主權基金 一個是儲備基金那儲備基金過去立法院在第十屆的時候立法院有很多同仁也都有做這樣的建議甚至於是說裁員的超徵稅收並要明訂超徵的八成都要作為該儲備基金的來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
520.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
535.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
但是這個之後就沒有進度了我不曉得主委總署跟國庫署怎麼看待這件事情如果你們要回應都可以然後再來對比勞動部這次特別預算中只爭取到100億我是覺得這個是真的大家要來檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
538.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
560.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這個大家要檢討因為時間的問題那第二個不只是儲備基金我們賴總統在今年520的就職週年也宣布將成立主權基金打造國家級的投資平台這兩個社會關注的問題一個是勞動部的勞工保險基金勞工的退休基金會不會是主權基金的組成之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
561.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
578.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
因為現在大家都說這兩大勞動基金有主權基金之實沒有主權基金之明你們怎麼回應第一個齁 那這個勞動基金目前在主權基金的這個組成的討論裡面我請我們這個運用局來跟委員說明請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
581.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
600.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們勞動基金的性質主要是來自於勞工大眾所以我們對於主權基金我們不會直接用勞動基金去直接的投資參與我們性質上比較不是這兩個基金不會成為主權基金的組成之一啦你要回答我是這樣對不對好那就明確囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
602.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
622.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
不會有變動喔在目前的討論裡面是這樣在目前討論嘛往後的討論會不會變動我們就是很清楚的表明其實目前勞動基金是我要跟部長討論這個事情是這樣嘛他如果未來不是主權基金之一那最好那如果未來是你們要怎麼因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
624.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
651.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我們沒有 目前沒有收到你們有相關的這樣的一個評估嗎目前沒有收到要把勞動基金放到主權基金裡面最好就是沒有嘛如果有你們要怎麼處理嘛好 如果沒有的話如果沒有的話那未來的主權基金成立之後有沒有機會也可以挹注到勞保基金上我們不去做它的組成之一但是如果成立主權基金那勞保基金是不是未來有性了可以由主權基金這邊來做相關的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
653.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
665.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這當然是我們現在在北歐的這個組成基金模式裡面有看到這個狀況是有看到這個做法那任何有助於勞保的裁員我們都會使正面的態度來看待了對 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
667.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
692.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
會持怎樣 我們都持正面的態度 希望能夠演繹啊如果單純持正面態度來看待我們希望能夠終於爭取各種可能性天上不會 北港某年掉下一個禮物給你 不可能嘛 對不對我們會持正面態度來爭取所以是不是要相關的一些評估跟盤點然後是不是也要有所規劃包含儲備基金 包含未來的主權基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
694.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
710.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
你們是不是有一些相關的一些因應跟評估的這樣的一個作為我想我們會來做因為財源的事情非常非常的慎重然後而且也非常重要所以我們當然任何可能有關可以成為挹注勞保基金的財源我們都願意來做評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
712.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
731.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以我們可能就是要適好做組準備嘛應該是這樣子嘛可能我們自己的版本要很多種當行政院當中的這邊在準備主權基金的過程裡面我們現在在委員會已經答覆了喔不可能稱為這兩個基金不可能稱為主權基金的這個成分之一喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
732.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
760.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們其實在之前在委員會上面有表達這個性質上真的不太一樣當然是不太一樣啊不過有時候有些事情的變動也不是部長可以現在這樣答覆我然後到時候的這個怎麼講反正因應整個世界的這種輪動啦很多事情的變動速度是很快的啦好不好然後儲備基金有沒有要盡快來納入評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
762.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
785.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我覺得現在只要各方有在談到的的各種經過我們都願意來評估但不過這確實也需要全職單位一起來這個研議啦對所以所以是我要成立這個儲備基金未來如何應驗主權基金的相關的未來的分配是不是有個可行性的評估可以來給委員做參考我們可以來評估一下那來跟委員這邊來說明對好兩週內 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
789.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
801.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
一個月 兩個月可以嗎 兩個月這本市會期結束前可以嗎 可以 謝謝最後部長有掌握到這個新聞嗎請他請回 主席跟那個國務署請回 不好意思 都不可以蒙到哪一個新聞 有沒有弄出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
816.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
820.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
蛤 你是很擔心勞保倒了是不是不然你今天怎麼怪怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
824.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
850.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
有個新聞是到台南的職安處去申訴整個身份資料竟被直接寄到公司那是相關的三人患堵職罪這起案件是勞動部轄下的職安處承辦員在發送公文的時候直接把當事人的名字全部露出直接讓該保密的案件攤在陽光下這個大家都知道就這案 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
851.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
858.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
部長知道嗎 有掌握嗎 有知道 這是個案嗎這個案子應該是在台南的食安處他的發文發錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
862.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
887.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我請署長說 部長你要用發文發錯了跟委員報告這個案子的話因為目前台南市是部分授權有一些事業單位轄區還是在治安署的南區中心那這個申訴案呢應該是發文給我們本署的南區中心結果在正本呢誤植給原申訴公司所以是誤植 剛剛我們有了解那個案子是誤植 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
888.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
903.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
一個物質可以把證人相關的這些投訴人相關的名字 當事人都把他露出來因為物質所以這非常不適當 這確實非常不適當部長剛才打呼我這樣 署長又打呼我這樣那這個事情顯然大家會沒完沒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
905.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
924.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們剛修的職安法還有霸凌的專章還有要如何保護當事人然後我們現今的法律勞動良法這個報導裡面特別提到最後一段有勞動良法都有所規範然後上面的報導裡面是講這個公益階段7月上路沒有規範到這個事部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
927.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
951.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
滴滴答答講的一大堆 重重之重就是我們是有相關的規範 法律的規範在保護當事人 保護投訴人 保護這個員工怎麼這個事情還會發生到這種程度 上個禮拜還修了治安法所以這個錯誤是不能被接受的我沒有要求你再去對這些人做什麼樣的處置啦 但是這絕對不是個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
953.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
978.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這絕對不是個案啦我想我們會來加強對檢察員的訓練部長我覺得這件事情對我而言在未完這麼久我覺得它是一個非常離譜而且非常嚴重的事情這等體的教育訓練是出了什麼問題是 我們會來加強訓練這個可能不只教育訓練出問題而且亦有民事故患的這樣的一個嫌疑但最終我尊重司法的這樣的一個判定 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
979.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
989.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所以我不是說你要特別去做什麼處理但是我說它不是個案我們還有一個中心也是這樣有證人的訊息還被外洩被當事人知道並提告的狀況發生現在在訴訟中 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
993.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1015.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
勞動部 洪部長你的主政之下這些事情你可能要特別小心是 當然對 因為前的部長是因為什麼事件下來這是沒有辦法被接受的現在如果不是主體是這些霸凌的事情反而是相關的當事人 投訴人經常有這種狀況持續的發生這代表勞動部上上下下整體這樣的一個機制 系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1019.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1032.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
甚至於文化我都覺得必須要 洪部長要大刀寇慎重的來面對加以的來管制處理不然這種事情絕對會層出不窮是好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝劉昭偉 |