| IVOD_ID |
165511 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165511 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-17T11:07:08+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-17T11:21:12+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:04 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56abd55089eef65e173ac344f506729c478c80df8a4d5e0e61e371115e0c3c9f18cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳思瑤 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:07:08 - 11:21:12 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、經濟部部長、財政部部長、交通部部長、行政院公共工程委員會主任委員、環境部、法務部廉政署、台灣中油股份有限公司董事長、台灣電力股份有限公司董事長等就「中油三接浮報工程款爭議及近年來國營事業貪瀆案件查處成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席請調查局陳局長經濟部何政次工程會陳副主委廉政署林副署長好請幾位中郵方董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
23.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
35.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好 大家辛苦了這一週胸油會成為立法院非常hard issue大家做足準備該辯護就辯護 該澄清就澄清當然有不法就要徹查 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
37.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
55.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
中油三接的爭議在我目前看來爆料的內容真相還未明他需要去徹查不管是司法調查或是行政調查但是對於一個國家重要的能源重大建設卻因為這些政治的操作卻 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
57.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
83.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
為盟其利 先受其害了中油是國家重要的能源建設但是如果這件事情我們沒有處理好說明不夠完整然後淪為這種爆料或是報復的行為被貼上了負面的標籤我覺得對於國家重要的能源建設真的都是賠了夫人又折兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
84.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
98.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
所以說 在 好 調查局長在這在您看來 目前為止的資訊中游的三接的這個海事的工程是弊案嗎報告委員 現在目前在調查中 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
99.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
124.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
所以 爭委未定嘛 是不是弊案 不知道所以我們不要貼上了負面的標籤我再一次說 好 經濟部次長喔中油的三接案 還曾經歷經過環保跟能源之間的拔河 歷經了公投最後這個重要的建設 我們還是上路了在風雨當中 在爭議當中我們要讓爭議化解到最小 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
125.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
148.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那它對於國家重要的能源發展有哪些正向的意義因為北部的供電其實對這個三接工程事實上是非常非常重要的那當然我們也不希望說因為這個事件影響到整個三接的這個工程的進行所以我們既然有新的事項我們經濟部也重啟了調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
149.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
167.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那當然檢調這邊也積極在偵辦那我想到最後一定會有一個水漏石出我希望在真相水漏石出之前我還是希望社會看待中油的三接案不要就被冠上了一個被汙名化所謂弊案的標籤 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
168.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
193.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
三接案對於國家的能源轉型對於我們要跟上世界接軌推動淨零排碳乃至於北台灣的供電的穩定因為不能夠再失衡了對不對 當初三接我們就是好不容易在我們的核能也好燃煤要退場我們當然在北部的燃氣它要有充足的氣源嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
194.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
222.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
所以這個天然氣的接收站站在國家重大的能源建設的角度上它攸關能源轉型攸關淨零排碳國際的競爭力更是穩定北台灣的擁電我還是希望經濟部也好中油也好在真相未明之前我們要強化定調這個論述我不樂見國家任何的重大建設先被貼上了汙名化的標籤切莫以 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
222.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
246.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
弊案來看待到目前為止這對國家重大建設並不公平下一頁我請陳局長啊我看到你們的報告裡頭有說調查局受理的貪瀆檢舉從2021到202511月有關國營事業就包括中油台電台水這些的整體的數字我整理在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
249.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
267.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
總體的受理的案件415案移送案件118案所以移送的比例是28%而移送案件當中的確實經司法審判目前起訴的案件因為我不能弄判決的案件因為很多還在審判中起訴的案件是61案換言之 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
269.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
289.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
不起訴的比例是86%起訴的案件是14%這告訴我們什麼有很多是到最後調查是查無那個不法的事證是所以說這個數字會說話有14%的起訴任何一個案子都不能縱容 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
290.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
311.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
不管一億的案件一百億的案件任何的弊案就是不能縱容即便他只是一案我們還是要撻伐還是要依法就辦但是以你們調查局受理的所有的移送比例受理案件到移送包括這當中有一個gap是因為可能他監察就是檢舉不實或者是證據不足或者是烏龍爆料 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
314.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
329.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
然後真正的進入了起訴司法審判裡頭被起訴是14%不起訴是86%換言之檢舉的不實是極有可能發生甚至是多數就你們這個資料是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
330.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
351.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這是有可能的但是我們調查局的立場就是說對於任何一件檢舉的案件我們不設前提嘛對我們一定盡最大的盡調查之能就是司法案件所謂案子有沒有弊核心就在證據而不是政治或是其他力量的干擾不會不會有任何政治的考量我們請這個廉政署的副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
353.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
378.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
副市長你好夏業我也整理了你們的資料廉政署你們負責這個行政調查方面的這些數字確定判決你們從一樣2009到2025年受理的貪瀆廉政調查的案件呢移送的起訴的還起訴的到最終確定判決是358件很高我還是覺得很高雖然他比例是6.8% |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
381.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
403.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
確定判決的不法案件6.8%在你們移送司法調查之後那多數啦還是可能像剛剛調查局的數字差不多如果證據不實或者是檢舉是惡意的當然我們要還當事人清白那您簡單跟我講一下你們這個數字你們的解讀是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
405.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
426.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
報告委員 在本署的偵辦案件裡面如果是明顯施政不足 那就會落在簽結的這個領域您大聲一點如果是在本署調查的過程明顯的施政不足那在廉政署那邊就會做簽結那移送之後如果是檢察官認定沒有到起訴門檻就會落入不起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
427.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
449.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以我们自行签结的是四成但是多数我们也是认为有疑虑我们就移送对不对那移送司法去调查之后呢确定判决是6.8%所以要提醒我们在看待所有的贪读检举案我们还是让真相查清楚再下定论好下一页 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
450.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
457.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
非常遺憾喔這個在野黨的委員用記者會的方式他們認為接受了吹哨者的陳情或是爆料用開記者會的方式就讓中油的三接案被貼上了弊案的標籤我再一次說沒有查清楚之前不宜這樣汙名化國家重要的能源建設下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
476.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
486.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
現在呢我看了你們全部的報告查核過三次對不對經濟部查核兩次嘛工程會查核過一次有沒有異狀 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
489.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
508.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
來誰代表跟我們報告我們從這個採購法的相關的程序內容來看的話並沒有任何的依照好經濟部也是嘛工程會也是嗎剛剛經濟部工程會也是嗎副主委那我請方董事長目前三接的進度多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
511.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
529.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
實際進度我不記得 但是有一個很重要的就是三接對外來講 已經開始供應天然氣了從今年的六月 已經好 方董事長 我是不太同意你的回答實際的進度就寫在你的報告裡面 75%而且超前了多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
530.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
544.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
超前了16.52%所以如果不是今天這個個案被爆料該查就查他實質的剛剛經濟部查核了兩次工程會查核了一次你們實質的進度是達到75%甚至進度超前了16.52% |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
550.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
569.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這是這個建設到目前的狀況所以說好現在進行中因為被舉發了就該查不管是從拱明星部長不管是你們廉政署不管是法務部不管是中郵自己也重啟調查不管是工程會兩個月也專案 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
571.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
590.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
調查嗎如果我作為一個立法委員我要監督的是如果有人檢舉有人爆料不管他是惡意的是不是屬實我該監督的是如果所有的相關單位所有的相關機關構不查不辦不作為這才是我監督的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
591.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
600.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
如果查了之後確實有弊案有不法那就該罰該救處的絕對不能縱容這也是我監督的重點或者是作為我們其他政策調整的參照這應當是一個負責任的國會議員該做的我說的是當一個案件如果被舉發了不查不辦不作為才是我該監督的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
616.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
643.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
調查之後確定司法調查之後或者是行政調查之後認為有弊端的話我如果你們輕罰該嚴辦的不嚴辦那我當然也要監督但是除此之外所有的內容不應當是我在這裡任何一個立法委員在這裡帶風向未審先判政治力介入個案的這是我今天要說的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
644.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
663.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以說呢 在下一頁非常遺憾喔 個案的政治公審又來了這一週 司法法治委員會就今天翁找偉排案 我尊重 我也在這裡履行我的問政的職責中遊三街的工程款爭議 今天要一次報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
664.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
684.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那這一週在經濟委員會也針對中油三接案的公傳款的爭議再排一次會甚至國民黨團也在院會提了要求甚至我不能接受的是你要邀請行政院長來做任何專案報告我們都尊重但是對一個案子是非為民 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
686.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
713.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
還沒有定驗 沒有經過完整的查查 查辦卻以觀塘液化天然氣接收站也就是三階工程的弊案邀請行政院長來立法院備詢就以弊案來代之我認為這不是立法委員能夠做的你可以邀請行政院長來專案報告對於他的爭議 疑議 就像今天好 招委用爭議 好 很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
714.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
735.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
如果是未審先判政治的公審就以閉案來貼上了負面的標籤查查出來如果沒有閉案呢如果查查沒有不法呢我認為這個都要審慎所以我再說一次不要介入個案不要用政治來公審 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
737.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
763.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
交給廉政署調查局行政的查處以及相關司法單位的司法調查他們才是有專業的調查工具的國家司法人員再一次提醒我作為一個立法委員如果今天這個案子有人檢舉你們站在我對面的這些官員們不查不辦不作為才是我要監督的對象如果查了 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
764.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
792.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
沒有不法還人家清白可是對於中油被貼上的負面標籤這真的是為盟其利先受其害它是重要的國家能源轉型的建設那如果真的查了有弊案你們還輕放不罰那更是我要強力去批判你們的但那個時間點不是現在我要請所有的從政同仁我們立法院的委員們不分黨派 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
793.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
810.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
曾幾何時你們最痛恨的淨檢你們不都說淨檢亂說話嗎今天拿週刊的爆料翻好像正義又轉了彎我認為我們不要兩套標準該查的在程序中我們都尊重司法的調查政治人少說話 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
811.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
831.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
要說就說基於何允的監督的權限而不是對於任何個案調查中就先奏下了定論這是我今天我表達的立場但是方董事長一個案子一億有任何弊案我們一樣絕對不縱容更何況這是253億的被檢舉的案件該釐清就釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
838.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
843.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我希望大家坦然面對司法的偵辦好 辛苦大家 謝謝 |