| IVOD_ID |
165495 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165495 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-17T09:25:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-17T09:44:57+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:19:42 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ff1e125e807f56ab520b5349afa87650c344f506729c478c5fbc24375b25c4746b5ac9660c38a9835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:25:15 - 09:44:57 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、經濟部部長、財政部部長、交通部部長、行政院公共工程委員會主任委員、環境部、法務部廉政署、台灣中油股份有限公司董事長、台灣電力股份有限公司董事長等就「中油三接浮報工程款爭議及近年來國營事業貪瀆案件查處成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席 麻煩有請法務部部長經濟部的市長以及中油的董事長委員長三位早 時間的關係先請教一下中油董事長中油在108年到109年的時候負債比有多高 |
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當時大概在50%到60%之間當時是60%嗎現在負債比有多高現在負債比到達93%到達93%嗎一個93%的財務結構我必須要說啦從財務的觀點 |
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這家國營事業令人捏把冷汗負債比93%是什麼概念我相信念財務工程的人大家心裡都有數但問題是我們從中油實際上面的表現看不出來中油的財務狀況很糟糕從實際上面的狀況我們看出來的是中油很有錢中油超級有錢 |
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花錢的方式完全不像一個負債比從幾年前60%到現在最近已經高達93%的公司我為什麼這樣講 我們從頭開始看2022年中油貪污的弊案你們在今天的書面報告裡面是輕描淡寫的 寫了徐漢兩個字嘛相關的案子只有徐漢嗎只有徐漢嗎 |
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我在PVP上面全部都列出來了啦不是只有列由事業部的執行長徐翰啊還包括你們的工程師儲運科前董事煉製事業部全部都淪陷啊導致檢察官在起訴書上面寫什麼啊中有貪腐結構根深蒂固 |
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中油的貪腐結構根深蒂固這八個字不是我說的是檢察官在起訴書裡面說的檢察官認為中油的貪腐結構根深蒂固董事長認不認同這個部分我想我不能完全認同不能完全認同這個絕對不是結構性的問題你要去告北檢妨礙民運嗎這應該是個案這是個案嘛所以檢察官這樣寫你覺得你沒有辦法認同嗎 |
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好沒有關係我們繼續往下看齁這次的這個案子啊羅志強委員他追得很辛苦那我看羅委員出來追啊那我也要看一下到底發生什麼事啊中有液化天然氣而去接收站我們就一般就稱為三接啦本來規劃五項主體工程六百六十億嘛這個沒有錯吧好 |
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那後來呢因為藻礁的爭議所以你們推出了外三階的方案嘛往外再延伸嘛新增三項工程嘛新增這三項工程包括棧橋延伸包括外鍋防波堤包括製程設備及管線工程這個也沒錯嘛這個也沒錯然後時程增加2.5年嘛好那我現在就看了我就看不懂 |
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2021年5月我們行政院宣布中游三接外推方案預算增加150億只有150億嗎 只有150億嗎剛剛提到計畫預算是增加大約是300億對 這個就是我今天要質詢的第一個point我們的行政院在幹嘛搞大內宣 欺騙國人 |
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當初行政院是行政院院會耶王美花自己出來宣布耶增加只有150億耶怎麼後來會變成增加300多億這個是發生什麼事 |
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委員我可以做個說明嗎是請說這個部分講的150億是講說這個直接工程的部分150億但是呢在編列預算的時候呢還要考慮其他的因素譬如說在工程試作期間有沒有誤調的問題我這樣講好了啦納稅人關心的就是這樣搞要多花多少錢嘛還有在你們這邊解釋來解釋去啊 |
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312.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
150億是直接工程然後其他的是其他的那行政院院會宣布這150億有何意義行政院院會宣布這150億有何意義這150億啊 你仔細看啊這還不是只有行政院院會宣布啊來你看這個表三接迴避替代修正方案與外推方案之比較這個表你有看到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
314.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
320.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
有有 這個表示你們中油做的沒錯吧來你看下面預算增加多少錢150億啊這也是你們中油寫的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
326.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
343.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
是沒錯 但是你看這些項目指的都是直接工程我剛剛講的就是說直接工程是150億沒關係啦 今天第一件事以後請你們中油跟行政院包括經濟部對納稅人說明的時候講清楚啦300多億就300多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
347.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
369.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
寫個150億 等到我去發預算書的時候發現根本不是150億 在東解釋西解釋的納稅人關心的是什麼 關心你多花多少錢嘛我講的對不對 對對對 以後我們改好 多編300多億是什麼時候編的 預算最後通過是111年的3月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
371.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
394.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
預算是什麼時候編的計畫本身965是111年的對我問你預算什麼時候編的你指的是工程本身的發包預算不是啦要經過立法院審核通過的預算我們是立法院嘛你們編預算嘛我們審嘛審了通過了以後你們下去執行嘛正常的民主國家不是這樣嗎這預算什麼時候編的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
401.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
427.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
965億這個部分是修正計畫的項目是預算什麼時候編的就是111年的3月份行政院核定是 預算什麼時候編的我們應該是在110年會去做這個計畫修正然後報經濟部對不起 你還是沒有回答我的問題預算什麼時候編的您是指原始預算嗎不是 修正過要增加300多億的預算什麼時候編到預算書裡面送到立法院來審核 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
430.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
451.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
不知道 應該是會在111年的預算書上會去揭露好來看你們實際上預算暴增305億這個我剛剛講過了所以發生這件事情我就回去看預算書啊我每一年的預算書都對啊來我對出來了我直接給董事長看 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
452.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
482.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
你們是111年喔立法院審核通過的預算書喔都還是原來的金額660億的金額 你有沒有看到這個是立法院審核通過的你們什麼時候預算書開始多300多億啊到965億是112年才出來的112年的預算書才編的啊你看到沒有 那我現在就搞不懂啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
483.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
512.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
300多億你們是到112年的預算書才呈現那請問現在有關於真正大家在爭議的那個外推的工程是什麼時候決標的111年的7月那我現在問題就來了你的預算還沒有送到立法院來立法院還沒有審通過立法院審不審對你們來講沒有差 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
513.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
524.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我反正就決標下去啦連預算都沒有就可以辦決標我看不懂啊所以現在立法院在審國營事業的預算是形同劇文嗎是形同劇文嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
530.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
555.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
報告委員 就我的認知的話就是在修正計畫的部分對 修正計畫是你們行政院的事嘛好 那我現在的問題來了在一個民主法治國家當中是行政院編預算就可以花錢還是立法院要通過預算才能夠花錢這是我的問題如果行政院編預算就可以花錢不用立法院審核通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
556.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
562.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那立法院廢掉算啦我們省什麼預算啦所有的立委在這邊省心酸的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
565.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
588.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
立法院有同意這個計畫嗎新興計畫本身是已經同意了誰 是誰同意的我說原始的計畫是行政院對嘛 原始計畫不是660億嗎那個是立法院也同意是 沒錯所以立法院同意你用660億我一點問題都沒有但是後續的修正計畫的話目前在行政院的部分是核准我們先行動之啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
589.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
617.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
對嘛 這個就是我現在的問題嘛在我們現在的預算制度裡面反正行政院最大行政院編了立法院還沒有審核我就直接先幹了嘛我有說錯嗎那我的問題來啦我們的立法院審國營事業的計畫是要做什麼因為整個我看到的啊 叫做從立法院的觀點來看我跟董事長報告我看到什麼 先設建後化吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
618.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
631.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
先設建後化吧我行政院預算膨脹啦本來告訴社會大眾150億後來變成365億後來誇張到365億都還沒有送到立法院來審核我連決標都做好啦我國的預算制度到底出了什麼問題啊讓你們這樣胡搞瞎搞 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
648.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
661.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我們立法院到底在省什麼預算啊我錢要花就花啦你們這些立法委員橡皮圖章而已啊我行政部門就是要先設建再畫吧150億到365億更離譜的是365億連預算立法院都還沒有省我已經絕標啦預算到2023年的時候才編 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
679.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
703.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
但是我2022年絕標啦請問要立法院審這樣的預算有何意義立法院可以不同意嗎到時候你們說 報告委員不好意思喔你們雖然還沒有通過預算啦我們中友早就絕標要做這件事啦可以這樣幹喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
705.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
732.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
可以這樣幹嗎還是你們覺得按照我國現行的預算制度中油這樣幹剛剛好而已 是這樣嗎我想報告委員中油公司的所謂預算跟執行都依照現有的制度來去執行對啊 但我現在就挑戰嘛你們根本沒有按照現有的制度啊我事情都還沒有說完啊我看你們啊 暴增305億我想要看裡面的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
733.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
761.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
到底是什麼項目要花多少錢305億那個在旁邊搖耳朵的你有話要講直接上來回答你先等一下報徵305億中油的預算書長這個樣子來我請教一下董事長如果你今天當立法委員你要怎麼審這個預算只有數字我有一個計畫的目的我有一個計畫的內容我有一個投資的總額 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
762.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
790.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
全部的字數加起來不超過一百個字然後我看到的數字是多了三百六十五億這個是把立法委員當什麼你要不然就是把我們當神仙我們是神仙啊終有什麼 什麼都不用提供一百個字之內概述計畫內容多三百六十五億我們是神仙要知道裡面的細部 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
791.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
800.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
到底合理不合理那要不然呢這些立委全部上班的時候都在混都在打瞌睡都在閉著眼睛審預算是誰教你們預算書寫成這個樣子的啊這樣是要立法院怎麼審 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
810.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
835.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我想現在我們在這個文書報表所呈現都是一些標準的格式 過往都是沒有關係啊 是誰訂的標準 立法院訂的標準嗎還是行政院訂的標準過往的一個沒有關係啊 過往的陋習我為什麼今天挑這個題目直接切進來是不是有弊案讓檢調去調查我光從立法院該監督的錢怎麼給你們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
839.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
858.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
計劃經費怎麼暴增的預算怎麼審核的預算還沒有過以前你們都已經絕標啦在民主國家當中這種預算制度如果按照董事長所講這是正常的話我們要徹底全盤的重新檢討我國的預算制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
860.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
884.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我再說一次 如果按照你們所說的 這樣子做是正常的我們要徹底全盤的重新檢討我們的預算制度但我看到的是什麼 我看到的是叫做先設建後畫把先設建後畫把 立法院預算都還沒有通過你們決標都已經辦了 甚至你們決標的金額那三項工程加起來多少錢 董事長知道多少錢嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
885.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
914.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
三項工程嘛本來宣布一百五十億後來邊預算邊到增加到三百零五億最後那三項工程花多少錢三百三十億左右來我算出來了三百四十三億你們也是很厲害先設限再劃吧就算了過的增加的預算是三百零五億三項工程來我報給你聽哈前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
915.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
943.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
在111年 預算還沒有通過喔我再強調 預算還沒有通過喔111年3月 棧橋延伸興建工程東坯營造 京務大工程就先絕標了 20億就是這一次 那個外接方案沒有得標的廠商嘛就他們嘛 我看了也很狐疑原來就是這一億兩家廠商在那邊吵 到底該你的還該我的 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
944.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
946.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
111年3月 棧橋延伸興建工程20億111年7月29號 黃昌營造253億 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
956.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
979.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
後來呢 外國防波新建工程做契約變更 再追加2840萬給他第三個 製程設計與管線統包工程這是第三項工程嘛第三項工程69億加起來343億作為一個立委 現在我就看不懂了我們給你們的預算我們同意增加305億結果你們決標可以決標到343億 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
987.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
989.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這個是怎麼回事可以說明一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
990.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1019.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
就是剛剛我跟委員所報告的直接工程150億但是這個計畫本身編列預算還有其他的像是對啊 就到965億啊對對對那所以相差多少 305億嘛這裡面就是說我們會去籌備一些物調的一個所以你的意思是什麼 自己從別的項目挪用過來嗎對對對 還有工程準備我的老天啊就其他 我再講一次我痛恨你們這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1022.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1043.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
用含糊其詞的方式在欺騙國人啊本來給你們660億追加到965億 多了305億立法院還沒有審通過你們就絕標了 膽大包天啊第二個 更扯的是什麼算出來的何止305億 343億啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1049.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1069.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
中油為什麼負債比現在高達93% 中油很有錢啊預算還沒有過 直接先絕標 絕標下去本來多三項工程305億從我們前面詢答的過程當中 我講得非常清楚了150億到305億 最後花343億 343億 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1078.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1102.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
忠友怎麼能不虧 出手大方啊 大方的不得了啊召委 今天既然排這個專案報告因為忠友他前面所編的那305億 細項到底是什麼大家根本都不知道 這個是第一件事情第二件事情 編預算編305億他們自己知道的絕標喔 就已經343億了 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1105.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1119.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
中油到底錢怎麼花的到底錢怎麼花的從哪些項目又多挪了三十幾億來搞這個三接是不是可以請召委等一下才是會後看這個禮拜禮拜五以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1120.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1138.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
是不是把所有的細項資料都交到司法法治委員會來這樣我們排這個專案報告才有意義嘛那要不然中央的董事長在上面問他的問題他也沒有辦法回答其他的細的項目我們也沒有辦法看得到是不是等一下請麻煩召委裁示一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1139.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1157.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我想請中郵待會依照黃委員的意見然後將你們採購的這個事項的一些說明書在星期五下班之前提供給我們司法署剛剛我的問題很具體嘛你聽得懂嗎沒有含糊涼 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1164.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1181.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
絕對沒有含糊其詩的地方了嘛兩個重點 第一個細項第二個呢 超過150億的部分這些預算是從計畫裡面哪個項目是 從哪個地方挪過來的那要不然我覺得立法院在審預算根本是在審耍寶的還是在審辛酸的好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員 |