| IVOD_ID |
165422 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165422 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
10 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-13T12:00:12+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-13T12:14:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:13:48 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face9731a6bc90b007fb8ff38efa2589ba080834c22697b3aa2aef5a74ead98971cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
劉建國 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:00:12 - 12:14:00 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院主計總處就「癌症新藥暫時性支付及罕見疾病藥物專款預算運用成效及政策檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
(討論事項)
審查
一、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。
二、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。
三、委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「癌症防治法第五條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。
四、委員劉建國等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。
五、委員王正旭等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。
六、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十三條條文修正草案」案。
七、委員林淑芬等20人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。
八、委員盧縣一等17人擬具「癌症防治法第八條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。
九、委員顏寬恒等24人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。
十、委員蘇巧慧等30人擬具「癌症防治法修正草案」案。
十一、委員林月琴等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。
十二、委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。
十三、委員羅智強等18人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。
十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「癌症防治法第一條、第十三條及第十六條條文修正草案」案。
十五、委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。
十六、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。
十七、委員馬文君等16人擬具「癌症防治法第十六條條文修正草案」案。
【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答；討論事項僅詢答】） |
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特別提到我還是再強調一次那這個強調還是在感謝因為在你當任健保署長任內其實對這個癌症病患有諸多的這樣的一個積極的這樣的一個協助讓很多癌症病有看到新的一個曙光這個絕對是惠服之眼但是坦白講我今天看到看到你們這樣的一個報告裡面我是我是有點有點 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
26.724 |
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40.642 |
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我還是感謝的話我還是不會收回啦不過等一下等一下如果講到之後可能會有一些有一些也讓你做更深層的一個參考因為畢竟你現在已經從署長上來當部長了 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
43.065 |
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那個角度高度是應該是完全不一樣的思維跟思考然後互出要對全部的這樣的一個在衛生醫療領域的患者裡面你的思考要更多但是 |
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60.288 |
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75.082 |
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不能講說顧慮要更多啦是要更精準 更精細嘛那你現在看啦 剛剛我聽你在答詢很多文的時候我們特別提到今天是講癌症跟講這個寒病那寒病的部分 你講平均這五年 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
76.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
101.764 |
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對健保在幾戶罕病的這些患者裡面平均是每年增加4%以上11%好 你跟我計較1%那我就好好跟你計較了我們要精準 要精算部長來看一下這個表格你看既然5年平均 正如部長所講的就是平均增加11%對不對明年為什麼 |
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105.475 |
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133.121 |
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低於11%你要跟我講是114年它就高於11%但是你看啊平均這三年在114年前三年通通不到11%但你要跟我講一個邏輯啊114年高於11%15年為什麼又距降於快攔腰折半了才6.6% |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
136.194 |
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163.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
這個對罕見疾病的病友而言你是要釋放出什麼樣的訊息而且是你當任部長獲得第一年的針對罕見疾病 血友病的這個藥會啦相關的一些特產來做一個處理在成長率裡面我們看到這樣的一個數據你到底要釋放什麼訊息還是你在政策上去做什麼樣的一個調整跟修正這個你要說清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
164.093 |
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186.991 |
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不然我不能理解 平均就11.1%為什麼115你的第一年的部長任內的這個成長率是降至到6.6跟委員說明大概他有兩塊啦 這個是屬於在健保裡面的192億那另外還有公務預算20億啦那20億先不談嘛 我們就先講這個嘛 對不對那第二個呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
191.315 |
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218.755 |
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這個都經過我們業務單位去算過因為我們不斷的在提高這個幾副的藥品進來進來的時候通常啦在第一年的時候會比較多因為有累積的那些病人啦然後之後新增了他就會穩定下來那所以算過他們按照這個已經有來listing說可能會在未來一年通過的去推估出來那大概是這些預算啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
220.316 |
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246.128 |
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我們這個今年會特別高是因為我們給付了幾個很高昂貴的藥物所以他才會 他還會成長的比較高啦所以你是預估明年就是沒有預估沒有會給付到很高的藥物大概是這樣是OK啦因為還有一個20億以來之後你覺得這樣是OK你的供應商撲普20億你覺得20億就夠了你不會明年的時候可能在年終還是在年尾的時候 |
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247.642 |
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255.956 |
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又有不一樣的變化又需要跟行政院要求請求要再多增加供預算來支付這個罕病的部分 |
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257.929 |
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284.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
應該沒有辦法現在就可以馬上下定論嘛應該是這樣嘛 對不對那我是想說 我現在跟你講一個基礎面嘛因為我們講平均嘛 11.1嘛 對不對為什麼 為什麼 唯獨你明年剛開始又是你當部長的第一年這算是第二年了啦 但是這預算來講是第一年嘛為什麼就居降到百分之四十幾啦 不到百分之五十啦依照均值喔 依照均值喔那如果你對照前一年 那更可怕了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
285.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
305.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
聚降七成勒你6.6除以19.1嘛其實應該這麼說啦 這個成長率因為隨著你那個base越來越大那個成長率就不一樣啦因為你那個已經到達200億規模的10%跟100億之後的10%那是不一樣的沒有 你還沒有達到200億啊你的200億是增加20億的撥補工預算才有達到200億喔 對不對那你這中間還有包含許有病喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
314.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
318.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
對你把他吸入出來才多少所以那一天為什麼創辦人會當場流下眼淚他為什麼要哭他為什麼要列薩利華院 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
327.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
355.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
有其原因嘛我想部長在過去的什麼職位裡面跟他們的互動也都算是密切平緩的嘛也應該知道他們的這樣的一個訴求基本上不為過啦不為過啦 當然每一個團體站在自己的角度自己遇到的狀況反射出來的當部長的人都是要面面俱到要去做相關的一些回應嘛但是另外一個角度因為你不是一來就當部長了嘛你是從 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
357.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
377.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
建保署吧 意思是等相關的單位一直上來的一個部長嘛所以當他們會覺得這樣對他們是不公平他們會覺得這樣是有期待上的落差這個我不曉得部長你要怎麼做這個回應但如果你剛剛都有這樣的回應我想他們可能也聽不太進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
378.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
390.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
不會啦 我們對所有的這個罕病的病友都會全力的去照顧那該給的藥我們也都持續的在編列所以請大家放心啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
393.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
411.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
你講這句話我是可以放心但其他的這個這個對象是不是會放心我不清楚不過部長部長這個21公的預算要公務預算要報補沒問題嘛對不對那未來如果還不足的情況之下還是要還是要積極爭取嘛是沒問題嘛對不對好我是我是請 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
412.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
434.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
部長是不是可以針對這個罕病的藥物專款然後必須提出一個具體的計算公式啊然後通報人數這個新舊罕藥的價格一般用藥期治療等等這每年應該都應該是計算出來然後應該是何時去編列才是一個對 這個都是何時去編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
435.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
455.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
不要再讓韓病的病人擔心啦好不好 不然就煩惱啊 每一年 甚至那個又不夠就要再拜託你如果繼續做 我才不用煩惱啦沒有啦 這我講這是會有資源嘛他不用教你比人家清楚啊 對不對但是 但是 但是已經找一個苦沒中了啊這外國要換一個沒中我們不知道啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
457.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
486.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我講這是實在話 我也希望你做過 也能把這件事進一屆開會就是讓他可以去制度化嘛對不對 尤其在你的任內裡面這是最好不過的嘛好 那我現在就來我就要講癌症新藥 為什麼今天要排審然後你們從今年的4月份的答覆的東西今天再重複一次如果你這個答覆是有其道理你這個答覆是可以讓癌症病患覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
488.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
509.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
不用去成立一個基金這樣就可以把他們因應期盼的這個新藥的多元的支持的這新藥的的患者裡面都可以去去有所期待解決我們今天也不需要排審我們當然知道主計總署當時已經講過的話了你就是這個預算撥補除外你就是要找新的裁員那找新的裁員對 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
512.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
538.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
對可能衛務部底下所屬機關的首長可能會有所困難對時部長而言 我覺得一點困難都沒有絕對一點困難都沒有 剛剛王振興委員還特別把要可以找新的財源都把你挪列出來的請你再假裝聽我出力啦不然 你回想一下嘛長照基金長照當時還沒有成立基金的時候一年多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
540.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
559.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我自己這個委員會 跟居府 跟長照的相關團體在這裡不知道協調 害慘敗英雄嘛一百五千人疫情 平均不到四十億那五十億是騙人的對吧 還有一年是二十幾億而且都是用那個特別預算去做處理 預備薪去處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
562.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
588.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
很難拖就對了所以當時你跟中央市 內政部社會事管機構然後當時的衛生署 照護師去管居股兩個單位要給的錢這些團體是政府的夥伴要申請的那些錢 經常在那邊拖一拖是幾個月 甚至半年所以當時是怎樣 把倫理倫理100隻載起來50隻就去派你來進補社會事務門口 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
592.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
613.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
另外五十隻準備要去衛生署的門口啊要拖錢啊 要拖長照的錢啊對喔 曾經核實這10年過了 106億成立基金之後馬上變成多少 320億捏那不是假白白捏 那是白白衣裳捏現在多少 千億啊對啊 整年 106 現在114啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
618.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
622.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那是滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑滑 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
634.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
661.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那如果在你原本的健保在幾乎這個癌症新藥這個整個期程剛剛文委員都提供這個數據就是八百幾天啊就是很久的啊所以我們希望在依照仿造因果的模式在成立一個基金然後透過法律的制定我覺得這個應該對部長而言你應該會全力的支持而且我們一直在那邊推一直在那邊推你要跟行政院講你要跟總統講 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
663.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
691.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我覺得他不是一個問題啊我最後再用數據來講 時間到了啦你看那個數據我們現在佔了50億嘛 今年50億對不對叫做癌症新藥 暫時性致富我把他調成暫時性致富 起碼一週罷了 你要暫時性致富到什麼時候現在 所在 宅邑的新藥 預估23億多你剛剛答覆其他委員 那有來這裡一天一百億就不夠了 對不對所以你說什麼百億 癌症新藥 會亂講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
693.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
705.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這個錢我們現在不可以這樣暗算啦我們可以略高一點嘛所以超過100億也是補兌多少你倒不說有人說的多嘛你要看現在呢這幾十三億多了再來預估未使用數26億多你再加明年明年再加一個50億還是不到百億啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
717.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
726.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
還是不到保育就馬上就是恢復部長剛剛答覆其他委員講的一百億現在不夠用啊但是我們2025到2026根本連一百億也沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
732.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
757.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
你知道這是要掛的嘛這是掛速度掛密切嘛所以期程縮短所以加快這個審查的速度然後你看對剛剛蘇清晴她也是來自醫界不過她有些講一些話都非常恐怖啦她那個角度有時候不是一個醫師的一個思維她也有她的專才不過我是覺得不是說今天我們縮短這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
759.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
783.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
有些病患有些病患因為你在當健保署長像費林癌像這個小細胞癌等等的對象因為他有加上免疫療法他現在還可以恢復他的工作能力啊要給他賠錢 要給他高薪啊不然你做化療療 金服就賣你賣黨啊趕快給他賣對不對他還有生產力這個怎麼都不去算這個部長都可以答覆的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
784.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
809.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
很多面向啦 真的很多面向所以我是希望部長可以再思考一下能不能在你就任不到一年的時間我們把這個事情就讓癌症新藥多元支持基金法制化然後我們讓經費我不敢說一低年就到位但是就很加快的速度可以讓基金成立至於基金的這個費用絕對超過百億以上嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
810.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
824.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們一起來努力啦不對好不好好 我們繼續努力啦但是這個預算我們一定會努力一時爭取啦好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝劉建國召委的發言謝謝部長答詢下一位請方國昌委員發言 |