| IVOD_ID |
165390 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165390 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-22-6 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
6 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
22 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
教育及文化委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-13T11:15:41+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-13T11:28:33+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:52 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fffa2c65c610face8421f1eeb71b6e4fe72a0011d4bca9f90f406a00a8f97c0664a5fa53d23552a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
葉元之 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:15:41 - 11:28:33 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
【11月12日及13日兩天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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主席好 麻煩請院長謝謝我請院長院長早安 院長在你應該是在上個月吧你有在美國史丹佛有進行一個演講嗎是叫做大概是跟台灣21世紀產業創新還有永續經營有關那這個我在網路上也有看了院長的演講那院長的演講裡面提到一個非常重要的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
37.202 |
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63.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
就是有關於我們的能源政策但這個議題跟民進黨政府長期跟我們講的數據是天差地別按照現在政府告訴我們的說法2030年我們的綠電要到30%然後燃煤是佔20%燃氣佔50%因為非核家園嘛然後之前還有一個因為2050就是要全世界要達到淨零碳排 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
64.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
67.885 |
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所以政府也有告訴我們一個淨零碳排的目標也就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
70.251 |
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93.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
2050年的時候我們主要的用電的配比是要以再生能源為主大概要佔60%到70%火力發電20%到27%氫能是9%到12%這是在行政院網站都查得到的然後再生能源60%到70%裡面主力就是風力跟光電這是政府告訴我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
94.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
121.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
當然中研院是研究機構大概跟行政院不同體系但是因為院長是我們中研院是研究的最高的機關您講的話我相信是非常有代表性而且是科學理性的沒有帶有意識形態也沒有政治性您在史丹佛的演講提到一個問題你就說台灣地狹人稠實際上光電是難以發展 對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
122.318 |
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148.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
三分之二是3D嘛所以我們實際上能夠發展光電的地條件有限這是沒錯沒錯嘛但是我們現在仍然是還是要大力發展並不是說這樣子就不發展但是即使大力發展仍然是沒有辦法滿足我們所有的綠電的需求這個意思但是並不是不發展對 當然啦現在都還有在發展沒有叫它不要發展所以也要全力發展但即使全力發展仍然是不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
149.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
170.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我是這個意思因為你總不能夠發展到破壞環境除此之外你能夠在保護環境的情況之下盡量發展但是台灣受限地理條件因為三分之二是山地所以你再怎麼發展也是有限那風電的部分的話現在你也有提到說只能靠離岸風電 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
172.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
187.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
因為現在的很多陸基發電我相信很多地方政府也不會同意了即使同意但是因為受限於土地面積這個海域面積仍然是有其限制並不是能夠百分之百能夠達成我們的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
188.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
205.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
是这个意思对但是我们仍然要全力发展当然我们都是以全力发展的前提之下在讨论这件事只是说因为它有很多限制所以在风电因为像我刚刚讲的风电一般是分成陆基风电跟离岸风电陆基风电现在我们已经看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
206.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
226.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
它很多是二三十年前當時設立的,目前都遭受到地方政府的一些或者當地人士的反對,因為它會造成低頻的噪音,所以陸基風電可能會受限。那您是說離岸風電,那離岸風電其實現在有的場域都差不多了啦,除非你要改變航道,才有可能增加離岸風電的那個場域。 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
228.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
250.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那這個也有受限是我覺得大家要務實看這個問題所以院長因為您有這樣的一個認知所以你提出來的數據跟行政院是差非常多我們來看一下因為我解取了一下你的一些你的投影片你是有提到就是說台灣的能源是有分用電跟非用電嘛對不對用電大概是佔了百是佔多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
251.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
264.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
百分之五七好下一頁然後再來您有提到我們現在2025年8月份能源配比燃煤是39%燃氣49%再生能源11%所以現在我們主要還是火力發電大概佔了88%但關鍵是什麼呢關鍵我們來看一下2050年 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
272.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
298.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
因為剛剛我有提到2050年我們政府就告訴我們說60到70%是再生能源可是院長您這邊的預估2050年下一頁下一頁我們看一下2050年這個是你畫的這是你畫的圖嘛是的對畫的圖嘛是的你看現在您的預估是說到了2050年我們的用電應該是需要500兆瓦時 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
299.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
305.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
5000億度500的兆瓦斯就是5000億度我們講5000億度好了我們現在是2800億度是2023年到目前為止2800億度我們估計2050年至少5000億度可能會更高可能會更高5000億度甚至於到6000億度對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
322.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
335.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
因為我們要發展AI數據中心沒錯所以換句話說2050年那時候我們的用電量是現在的兩倍以上對吧對沒錯嘛所以您就畫出了一個非常大的缺口 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
337.152 |
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354.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這個透明的部分是缺口那院長請問一下按照您的想法我們現在要用什麼發電方式我就在旁邊已經寫了第一個是去碳燃氫就是我這邊寫Methane Pyrolysis是去碳燃氫其中在一部分沒辦法做的就是加上這個CCS |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
355.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
372.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
就是碳捕捉除能然后过来发展地热再过来发展生殖能海洋能最后再可能我们必须要用新核能的技术或者是从国外进口这个氯氢或是氯氨到了2050年我们期待希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
374.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
401.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那个时候会有这个绿清绿安的国际市场对 可是您您提的这个部分跟行政院告诉我们就不一样了因为行政院告诉我们说2050年60到70%再生能源主要是以风力跟光电为主但是院长这边的数据是告诉我们说风力跟风力加光电大概就是1000亿度大概是1000亿度那1000亿度就占5000亿度的 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
402.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
403.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
五分之一啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
404.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
433.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
然後如果要到6000億度的話就更小所以我不知道說中研院的研究為什麼跟行政院所標示出來的政策目標會差那麼大中研院的預算我們都全力支持但中研院除了學術研究之外應該務實的把它化為政策所以我們現在就發現說研究的成果跟政策在我們中華民國政府有很大的落差我不曉得說院長平常你們的研究跟行政院有暢通的管道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
437.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
456.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
首先再生能源也包含地熱我知道但是政院是說60到70再生能源裡面主力是火力跟風力跟方電首先委員講的沒錯我們是個研究單位行政院是政策制定跟執行單位兩邊雖然有溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
458.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
473.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
但并不是说我们提出来的见解行政院就必须照单全收毕竟我们是学术研究单位我们从我们的角度出发我们认为是这样行政院可能有不同的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
473.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
499.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
而且您提出来的数字假如我没记错应该两三年前第一次提出来的一个数字我想日后也会滚动式检讨包括我们自己的认知大家都会滚动式检讨现在也很难讲说是我们现在当然认为我们讲的是比较是可能的但是不排除说 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
500.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
527.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
行政院會變比較可能你的意思是這樣行政院跟中研院我當然是相信中研院所以我們希望中研院的數據可以成為政策目標那您剛剛提到兩年前對我是在行政院的網站上看到的那如果兩年都要做滾動式修正那你怎麼預估到205年的事2050年這個是這幾年這是25年後兩年都要不斷修正25年後那要修正10次 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
527.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
548.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那現在提出來的任何數字有任何的參考意義嗎這是一個目標所以當然我們以現在我們當然就是要以現在的這個基礎來做討論嘛那就當然會我會希望說院長因為我們是相信你你在學術界大家都很尊敬但您講的話包括你去史丹佛的演講居然跟中華民國政府所講的落差這麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
550.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
567.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
到底大家要相信誰這個我相信國人也會產生很大的困惑所以我希望說中研院的研究基礎可以成為政策的至少很重要的參考而不是落差這麼大差一點點我們不會拿出來講啦重點是差很大差很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
568.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
587.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這個就有點離譜了我自己覺得就是政府的政策希望院長可以應該有一些管道可以跟政府建議一下透過貴大院好 那我讓你多講一點你現在要對行政院建議什麼還有時間嗎 有沒有建議一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
588.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
603.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你把你的投影片或者是你把你的連結傳給行政院讓他們看一下我在行政院也報告過所以我們是從科學技術的角度來估算 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
611.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
620.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
另外要从政策面需要考量实际的社会的接受度等等的这些都需要考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
622.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
634.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以行政院有不同的考量方式這個我就不怎麼清楚了好 不清楚好 再一分鐘我跟請教一下因為賴總統在前兩天有說有一個333諾貝爾計畫希望30年內增加三位諾貝爾得主30年 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
640.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
658.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那不禁又讓我想起二十年前當時政府也說要有一個那時候叫做宮頂計畫院長您知道嗎二十年前宮頂計畫所以要培養諾貝爾得主結果二十年之後我們的總統又講三十年這就五十年了耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
659.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
673.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這就五十年了我不知道這是口號嗎還是每一個總統上來之後都要講二十年後 三十年後五十年後 一百年後我希望台灣會有諾貝爾得主這個到底是隨便喊喊還是院長你覺得可行 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
674.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
691.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我這個不斷強調這個要非常努力那是個好的目標但是在這我跟這個委員分享一個諾貝爾獎得主在十年前寫了一篇文章他想怎麼樣得諾貝爾獎首先 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
692.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
712.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
不要去想它好好的做研究這最重要的不要去想諾貝爾獎重點是做好研究不是得諾貝爾獎這是那篇文章第一個要素講的跟這個委員分享那你覺得哪一個領域現在最有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
713.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
741.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
一樣我們是要做好研究不要去想所以那你那既然不要去想為什麼要訂這種三十年後要三位為什麼要去想這件事那是國家的願景我們講的是這個每一個研究人員的態度每一個研究人員的態度不能每一天急急慌慌叫得諾貝爾獎那會生活得非常辛苦對啊所以我剛也是問您的願景嘛你的願景覺得哪個領域比較有可能有這個願景嘛那是每一個應該都想說我自己的研究是最有希望的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
743.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
771.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
但是每一个人要重视自己做的研究把扎实的研究做好而不是想说要得什么奖谢谢因为我没有什么机会得诺贝尔奖所以你这个应该不是讲给我听的我只是想说这样的愿景答得到答不到了和平奖可能谢谢跟川普竞争我努力谢谢谢谢叶元之委员谢谢院长 |