| IVOD_ID |
16539 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16539 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-19-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-24T08:30:16+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-24T12:01:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:30:44 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbd471259357e90fe0445fc32f41448fc07692a6bdb7e2f09f15723cdd772f74a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-24T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：審查：
一、行政院函請審議「電業法部分條文修正草案」案。
二、本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「電業法第七十四條條文修正草案」案。
三、本院委員林岱樺等18人擬具「電業法第六條條文修正草案」案。
四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「電業法第六條條文修正草案」案。
五、本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「電業法第六條條文修正草案」案。
六、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「電業法部分條文修正草案」案。
七、本院委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「電業法第七十四條條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:16 - 12:01:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
975.034 |
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975.357 |
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谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1267.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1268.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
谢谢观看,下次见! |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1385.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1386.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
谢谢观看 欢迎订阅我的频道 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1452.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1452.334 |
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谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1720.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1721.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1788.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1797.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好那我們現在請我們組密來報告出席人數報告全體會出席委員14人一組法定人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1798.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1809.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄議法院第11屆第三會及經濟委員會第三次全體委員會議事錄時間114年3月19日星期三9時至12時57分114年3月20日星期四9時1分至13時12分地點紅樓101會議室出席委員林丹樺等14人列席委員陳倍宇等31人 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1822.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1839.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
列席人員114年3月19日星期三國家發展委員會主任委員劉靜清暨相關人員114年3月20日星期四經濟部部長郭志輝暨相關人員主席謝昭吉韋英鳳114年3月19日星期三報告事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1840.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1859.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告以後該況並備質詢國家發展委員會主任委員劉靜卿報告後委員林大法等22人提出質詢經由國家發展委員會主任委員劉靜卿及相關人員及其答覆決定以登記文 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1859.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1877.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
登記發言委員除不在場者外區域經營發言完畢詢答結束二委員張家俊所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報三書面質詢和位及答覆部分請相關人員於週內書面答覆並複製本會一百一四年三月十日星期四報告事項邀請經 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1880.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1908.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
經濟部部長列席報告業務概況並被質詢經濟部部長郭志輝報告後委員林德化等二十二人提出質詢經由經濟部部長郭志輝及相關人員及其答覆決定已登記的發言委員除不在場者外區域均已發言完畢詢答結束二委員羅志強陳昭明林德福牛許廷及蔡易所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位一周內以書面答覆並複資本會商會宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1911.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1937.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
好 請問各位同仁 上次會議事錄有錯誤沒有的話 好 議事錄確定那我們現在進行討論四項 請宣讀審查行政院行刑審議 電業法部分條件修正草案二 本院委員賴世保等17人擬拒電業法第74條條件修正草案三 本院委員林大化等18人擬拒電業法第6條條件修正草案四 本院委員林 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1938.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1955.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
楊瓊瑩等20人擬拒 訂閱法第6條 挑選修正草案五 本院委員邱毅英等16人擬拒 訂閱法第6條 挑選修正草案六 本院委員邱志偉等20人擬拒 訂閱法部分挑選修正草案七 本院委員鄭振銓等19人擬拒 訂閱法第74條 挑選修正草案 宣讀完畢好 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1958.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1973.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那我們本日議程討論四項是電力法的部分條文跟第六條以及第七十四條條文的修正草案總計有七個版本那我們現在先介紹我們在場與會的委員有我們邱義營邱委員我們楊瓊英楊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1984.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2007.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那我們現在列席的官員有我們經濟部部長郭智輝郭部長我們經濟部法治師師長羅翠玲羅師長經濟部國營事業管理師副師長劉啟孝副師長我們能源署代理署長李軍理代理署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2011.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2038.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
台灣電力公司董事長曾文森曾董事長台電總經理王耀廷王總經理跟我們法務部的法治司副司長謝志明好那我們現在先請提案的委員來說明提案的要旨那我們第一個請我們邱毅英委員說明提案要旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2049.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2076.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
主席各位同仁今天本席提出電業法第6條的修正草案此次修正是因應台灣電力公司截至今年3月累計虧損高達4301億元之現實狀況106年1月修正公布的電業法增訂第6條第5項明確要求台電公司要在法案公布後的6年內轉型為控股的母公司並且將會在2026年1月1號以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2079.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2106.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
向下分割成立发电、输配电、售电三家子公司当初立法的目的是为了引入竞争打破台电长期垂直整合垄断的格局落实多元参与的电业自由化目标该条文并授权行政院视电力市场发展的状况延后实施但是延后以两次为限第一次最长是两年第二次最长是一年行政院的确 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2107.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2131.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
确实两度核准台电延后分割时程所以展延已经用尽然而考量我国整体电力市场发展以及2050净零碳排的趋势本席认为现阶段应该透过发电输配电以及受电端的整合有效协调与调度方能维持电力供需平衡以及达到稳定供电的目标 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2132.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2159.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這個修正案提出後將允許輸配電業在經電業管制機關核准的情況下兼營公用受電業並維持輸配電業及兼營其他事業時仍需以不影響業務經營以及公平競爭為原則這項政策大轉變的背景在於近年國際能源危機和國內能源轉型的目標下我們重新評估了電力市場結構的最佳模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2160.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2189.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以此次的修法将协助建构安全强韧的电力系统有助于我国在全球近邻排放的浪潮中保持竞争力与稳定性并有效减缓现阶段台电公司巨额亏损的问题避免冲击全民用电的安全跟品质以上是本席提案的简要说明敬请支持让我们共同确保台湾电力公司系统的永续发展谢谢好谢谢邱委员那下一位提案说明请杨琼英委员说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2203.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2219.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
有鉴于俄乌战争之后,能源价格高涨,包括英国、日本、新加坡等国家都有民营电力公司倒闭 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2220.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2246.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那法國是讓法國的電力公司買回民間的股份德國是把部分的能源公司收歸國有顯見全球的趨勢已有所調整而我國在2050年淨零碳排的這個目標政策之下需要大型的中和電業來執行綠電囤購以及新能源爐地熱的開發跟投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2250.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2273.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那麼若由民間小型的公司來執行恐影響我國能源的安全跟穩定那唯有透過台電將發電電網以及受電端來做一個整合方便有效的來維持電力供應的一個平衡達到穩定供電的這個目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2274.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2281.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那目前我們的電眼法第六條的規定台電最晚需要在2060年1月1日轉行為控股的這個母公司那所以呢我們也已經展演兩次文獻 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2290.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2292.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個規定時間已經用盡了所以本席來提出電源法第6條的一個修正那這個主要的目的也就是將第6條條文原先輸配電源不得兼營我們修正為輸配電源兼營發電源受電 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2313.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2336.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
以及電業呢以內及其他的這個事業我們希望能夠完整的一個作業讓我們的供電更加的穩定以及符合2050年的碳排在目前全世界的一個接軌也敬請各位委員我們行政部門大家來支持 謝謝好 謝謝楊瓊英委員那下一位請林戴華委員提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2345.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2364.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
好那我們現在就請我們經濟部郭智輝部長就行政院版本以及委員的提案進行報告主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2365.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2392.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
各位委員 各位女士 各位先生今天列席貴委員會就審查行政院及立法院所提電業法部分修條文修正草案共期案代表本部進行報告深感榮幸本部緊究電業法研修政策及大院各委員會各委員所凝聚草案內容檢討報告如下敬請各位委員先進不吝視角 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2394.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2415.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
電源法之研修政策說明為持續健全電力市場環境同時呼應2050淨零轉型的活絡綠電交易市場等目標本部寧定電源法部分條文修正長案包含以下四大重點一 放寬再生能源受電交易限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2416.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2440.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
允許再生能源受電業互相交易透過同行調貨方式活絡綠電市場降低餘電量二 納管儲能與需量反應將並往行儲能及需量反應等電力供應資源納入管理透過法令確保市場秩序降低業者風險三 強化電力交易市場中立性 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2442.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2452.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
規定電業管制機關因應市場發展檢討電力交易平台強化其運作中立性並設立具獨立性質交易單位並新增對應罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2455.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2483.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
使台電公司維持現行經營形態考慮國際政治及疫情影響強化電力系統穩定台電公司將繼續整合發輸配售資源有助於確保電力系統穩定及維持供電目標本次大院委員凝聚修正案本部說明如下有關賴世保委員及鄭振勤委員提案修正電業法第74條建議對 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2485.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2500.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
未符合電力排蛋係數基準之公用受電業一提案之裁罰公式計劃計算罰款數額本部認為現行電業法已訂有罰員範圍150萬至1500萬且委員提案之計算公式可能導致罰員金額過拒 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2506.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2534.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
恐違反比例原則以公用售電業113年度售電量計算還原金額高達7,170萬元為現行上限4.7倍恐對業者造成過重負擔有關林代化委員、楊瓊瑩委員、邱盈瑩委員及邱志偉委員提案電業法部分條文修正草案部分與本部修法方向相近懇請委員支持本部所提修正案 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2535.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2563.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我国实现2050近年转型现行政策聚焦提升再生能源占比推动前瞻技术与电网升级随绿能交易成为市场主轴电网调度将面临极端气候等挑战为此政府推动电业法修法排除绿电交易障碍引进民间资源强化电网韧性并加强市场监制确保稳定发展 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2564.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2590.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
同時維持台電公司現行經營模式以整合電力資源達成淨零轉型面對國際能源趨勢變化政府將動態調整法規強化監管確保市場穩定與電業永續發展最後感謝大院諸位委員對我國電業發展所提供之建言敬請指教並祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝好謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2594.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2622.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那本日議程討論事項合併詢答委員質詢前原例做以下宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員4分鐘必要時的延長1分鐘非本會委員3分鐘上午10點截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位林戴華委員發言好有請部長好請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2632.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2661.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
好 部長那本席呢一貫主張就是台電要以綜合電業的模式繼續經營那當然我們有一些修法背景對於這個綜合電有疑慮的這些人士我覺得還是要回歸一下一些歷史的爬梳在106年的時候電業法的修法為了順應當時國際電業自由化所以是以開放綠電自由化再來開放火電自由化的框架所以第一階段我們開放了綠電自由化 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2663.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2688.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
2025綠能發電占比提升至20%之目標在目前來講今年確實在高峰端確實也能夠達成20%的綠能發電占比是要給我們經濟部所有的同仁給予掌聲真的是不容易的工作那第二階段我們再來開放否電自由化所以呢也就開始了106年的修法網廠分離分割台電為電力市場全面開放做準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2689.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2709.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
但是有幾個重點這也是本席要支持綜合電業的原因第一個地緣政治跟國際趨勢的轉變在三年前惡霧戰爭地緣政治的動盪以及2050近年轉型的目標這也是在您的報告當中有提國際對電業經營的失約整個氾濫大轉由推動電力市場的自由競爭轉為強化管制與整合我們來看這三個國家第一個核能大國法國 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2719.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2745.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
他的发电由政府持股已经达84%了二无战争之后为了稳定他们发电的财务前年2023年他们全部的国有化百分百那英国呢是最早倡议电业自由化所以他们根本就没有这个国营事业了好就所以国力电力全部的民营化二无战争之后竟然是人民跟政党的起因 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2745.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2762.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
人員公司國有化而在去年的時候他成立的國營他們這國營當中是做綜合電業跟規劃設計而且在另外成立的一家公司叫做國有再生人員公司他連再生人員他都要統合的 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2764.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2783.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
來做一個整合的平台就這家公司新加坡他是一個長久以來就是以他們的新加坡電力公司購買天然氣那過往他們購買天然氣就是這家公司自己去買新加坡電力公司去買現在在去年他修法中央政府來買中央政府還成立了中央燃氣機構統一為這個發電公司來購買天然氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2788.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2804.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
好另外第二點本席會支持綜合電業的原因因為也只有綜合電才能統整各種不同電力的效應不管風光水力天然氣好我們看再生能源的發電量其實已經打國家總用電的11.7%了這個是可以預估這樣的再生能源廠及裝置持續 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2810.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2822.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
未來這種再生能源方電比值會持續升高但是綠電的間歇特性供電的穩定當然需要做統整的運用所以唯有透過發電端電網端受電端整合在一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2825.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2840.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
才能有效的維持電力供應如果我的發電電網跟售電是分開的情況之下本息很難想像在供電當這三家公司是以盈利為主的時候根本不會配合我經濟部不會配合國家政策去做統整的運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2841.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2850.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
第三個本席會支持綜合電業的原因是只有綜合電業才能支持國家的人員政策穩定產業發展我國產業的特性為出口導向型的製造業勢必面臨低碳跟成本競爭力的要求如何確保民生穩定產業發展跟經濟成長這是國家的首重課題也唯有以綜合電業來 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2865.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2885.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
存續的這個國營事業才會優先支持政策當我分割這三家的時候這個一定政府說我們有哪些產業政策你必須投入譬如說我們說電力韌性那你這家公司的輸配電你要不要投入他絕對不投入 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2886.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2894.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
因為太貴了我的偏鄉光是只要偏鄉地方他們哪要用這些成本下去做投資我們整個電力電網是花了千億這家公司怎麼可能單獨花千億所以為了支持我們的產業政策民生穩定經濟成長本席是支持綜合電業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2904.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2916.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
另外呢 主責機關這個部分呢 我要特別給人員署一個掌聲但是呢 我也給他一個克責 就是要給他克與在一些責任那這件事情需要經濟部這邊給他一個靠山啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2920.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2937.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
怎麼說呢我們是屬於高度能源進口的需求的國家過去能源署他叫管哪家公司就夠了管台電中油可以掌握國家所有的人員供給電業自由化所衍生的再生能源業者能源署應該強化目的事業管理機制所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2937.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2959.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
但是我要提到地方政府對能源的專業是相對欠缺的新科技對於環境跟原生產業乃至於區域發展民間的宣達都需要能源署在中央統籌執行好再精準的講我的再生能源大部分的再生能源廠都是國家權利授予的不管是我離岸風電光電廠包括地熱 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2962.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2975.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這都是國家大概20年或25年到了之後我們政府要續約但是我們現在有沒有數據完全沒數據喔我們現在這個國家授予的這些地區來講包括豐利 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2978.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2984.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
太陽包括地震所產生的衝擊這些看起來是誰該做應該是環境部可是環境部要管不管電力效應不管當我這個場域當中這些的天然資源所帶來的數據當我對於我電力效應的這樣的一個綜合的一個評估或者是觀察有沒有好我為什麼說到地方政府也有關係我的這個養殖場 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3006.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3011.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
全部都是地方政府啊我養殖場的數據相關周邊的數據我為什麼要提供給你給你能源署呢所以我講到這個工作當你已經要預見到我20、25年的時候我需要再做這個重新的再做續約的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3024.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3037.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
或者我現在的人員政策我有沒有需要透過數據能夠五年十一元的十年來我需要做一些調整都這需要數據的支持那我說需要經濟部多給人員組這個支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3039.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3061.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
跨部會啊 跨農業部 跨環境部 跨地方政府這個東西你叫一個能源署他該做我認為他因為電力這些東西都是要影響我電力的效益但是他要有哪一個單位或機構特別來做這個是部長這邊你可能要這個等一下簡單回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3063.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3068.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
最後具體主張台電是以綜合電業的方式來繼續經營這是本協專強烈要求人員署評估建立再生人員場域各級數據監理機制並規劃台電場域先行事辦到底我哪些台電所的離岸風電或光電廠我們就先行事辦這些數據的整合因為我剛才講還有設計跨部會跟中央地方才能夠有力要求我們未來民營電廠應該比照辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3090.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3105.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
部長您怎麼看謝謝委員指教我們會在一個月裡面提供這些資料給這個委員參考好謝謝部長我們請加油謝謝好謝謝戴華委員那下一位請鄭正前委員發言主席我想請一下郭部長好請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3128.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3142.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
委員好部長好因為我們今天主席特別排的是電業法的一個修法那我想說電業法在2016年提出2017年修法的時候其實大概提出了四個主要的一個長網分離的一個理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3143.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3167.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
第一個就是打破台電壟斷 要促進市場的競爭第二個要促進綠能發展跟再生能源的一個並往第三個部分要符合國際電力自由化的一個趨勢第四個要提升電力系統的效率跟彈性這四個當時產網分離的理由目前都還是我們在整個台電在發展過程當中的一個目標嗎這四個還是我們目前的目標嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3169.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3173.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
報告委員我想現在的這個環境有所改變我是不是請這個委員跟你做一個詳細報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3176.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3203.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
是的這個因為現在跟當年在106年的時候的環境是不一樣的那當時整個市場都是屬於台電公司一家公司那後來我們當時開放了綠電當時綠電只有4%那今年應該會到15%那未來會越來越多所以這個市場的綠電是越來越多反而現在是希望因為綠電本身不是太穩定反而是希望有一個穩定統一的 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3203.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3220.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
OK 理解喔其實當時在2017年在修這個法的時候其實包括我們張立善委員當時張立善委員現在張立善縣長還有國民黨團其實本來就主張其實不要拆分不要拆分那現在走了8年之後的時候又要回到原點 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3221.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3241.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那我在想說那這過程當中到底這八年當中有哪些具體的一個變化那我們當然在認為說台電因為這個問題其實坦白說網路上面大家討論的也非常的多啦那很多他們就提出一個狀態就是說現在電業法又要修是不是因為當時要拆分的時候是因為台電很賺錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3242.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3251.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那麼現在的時候呢連續三年下來的時候呢台電都持續的有虧損那現在的時候當然就不需要再拆分了 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3253.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3278.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
所以要再把它給回復到原本的一個狀態針對這樣子的網路上面很多民眾這樣的一個說法的時候部長可不可以簡單回答一下是 報告委員我想這個您所指正的這個部分那台電分割是否我們在看這整個國際的趨勢都是往這個整合的這個方向在做曾經分割過的這個國家他們現在在整合我想剛才那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3281.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3290.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
剛才我們邱委員也有報告過我想國際趨勢已經開放自由競爭轉為強化管制的整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3290.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3311.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
第二個各國都採取提供補貼然後定價上限開增暴利稅等措施以確保電價的平穩那已經自由化的國家有修法整合及電力公司的管制案例譬如說英國2024年修法成立國營NASO |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3312.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3337.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
整合電力調度、電力系統、天然氣跟氫CCUS的規劃並將成立國有能源公司這個GV Energy法國呢在2023年完成政府完全持股的EDF2024年修法明定EDF的資本百分之百 部長這個部分到時候你再提供給我因為你在講英國中央 英國在1990年代他也開始推動那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3338.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3351.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
電力自由化的部分他們也成立國家電網的公司然後負責出配電然後發電跟售電其實他們也是把它分開來所以它有各個不同的一個做法那我直接再特別提到說因為在2017年的時候坦白說當時國民黨團就是反對裁分的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3355.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3377.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那現在八年之後走了一大堆之後然後能源政策沒有改變然後台電從獲利變成虧損的一個情況那我們認真的來看待這狀態的時候呢就覺得說好那現在說電業法它修到原本國民黨的主張我覺得我也沒有意見我也支持不要去拆分它因為我覺得也符合台電的一個具體的一個發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3377.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3397.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
也符合我們對於整個台灣電力供應的一個政策的一個期待那只是在這邊的時候我不得不再去特別提到一個狀態說因為你上來的時候你特別也提到說整個能源政策的一個相關的一個問題那我們在修電液法的時候對於能源政策這邊會不會做調整這邊可不可以請部長這邊做個政策性的一個說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3399.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3419.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
你說能源政策能源政策的部分因為我剛剛提到說比方說為什麼台電持續從獲利變成虧損我們認為它就是一個整個政策上面的一個問題因為政策上面的一個問題的時候呢然後讓我們整個台電的虧損增加台電虧損增加的時候就會出現狀態是第一政府補貼 第二是漲電費那 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3421.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3443.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
企業民眾的成本他都持續增加 可是當我們剛剛回到上一個部分就是說如果是漲電價的時候那民眾被撥 撥一次皮那政府如果撥補的時候 政府那個民眾還是被撥一次皮 就間接的一個支出的方式那我們發現不管是怎麼樣子 當電價漲的時候呢企業成本跟民眾的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3444.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3467.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
成本都不斷的增加的時候然後物價上升然後再出現了一個台電還會持續的虧損那台電虧損之後的時候呢就會再出現一個狀態就是那我們要怎麼樣去解決這個問題那你一上來的時候你那時候也提到說那個自由化的一個部分電價在自由化的部分那現在4月份的時候我們馬上要碰到是不是要調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3468.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3490.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
電費的一個問題電費這邊相當所以我剛才這邊兩個問題第一個是針對於整個能源政策的部分那部長這邊會不會有一個在修電業法當中的時候同時也把能源政策做一個政策式的一個說明是不是會有所調整然後第二個部分的時候就是針對接下來的電費四月份的時候電費的時候是不是還會做調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3492.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3510.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
簡單報告這個委員我想這個能源政策的部分我們基本上是多元的這個能源都可以用那我想您剛才在談的這個核電的部分我想我們大家都很清楚三個原則這個安全然後核廢料可以處理第三個是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3515.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3544.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
社會有共識那我想這個是我們的能源政策還是一樣如果這些都可以解決我們各種多元的能源都會使用那至於說四月份會不會調漲這個電價的部分我還是再次跟你報告電價的調漲是由電價審議委員會理解 完全理解我最後再丟一個部分我理解我最後再丟一個狀態就是因為之前你一直提到說那個有關於那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3545.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3568.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
台電的這個部分要如何讓它有效的經營那之前有一個台電購電損失兩百一十幾億會自己調降到九十二億你知道這個案子嗎就是台電跟IPP九家電購電的一個相關的一個合約問題這個部分我是不是請總經理再請總經理之後再到本辦公室做一個說明好不好OK好 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3571.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3599.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
好 謝謝鄭委員我們等一下會處理條文 事實上等一下大家還是可以充分發言好 那我們現在請邱益穎委員質詢謝謝主席我是不是請一下部長跟這個台電好 請部長還是總經理跟台電今天是總經理嗎總經理 董事長都有來 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3603.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3624.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
我先找部長我想剛剛這個本席的提案說明其實也特別點到了幾個國際的局勢那包含我們一直在談電網的韌性這件事情可是我還是想要讓經濟部再更加的這個給你一點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3625.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3648.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
再去說明一下其實在2017年106年我們的修法裡頭是希望把這一些電業依照電業法讓台電去分家分成三家子公司希望能夠維持供電的穩定但是整個國際局勢的變化這幾年下來看起來分家已經不是一個好的選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3649.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3661.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
但是我想在過去的這幾年當中台電應該有針對分家這件事情做了一些準備工作嘛對不對所以這個準備工作做完之後我們現在又要再回頭來修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3663.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3685.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
又要再回到台電只是維持一家母公司的這個狀態底下當然有會有許多的委員就會批評說那你這個是不是浪費資源如果是這樣當時為什麼要修法讓他搬家那現在又要再把它改回來又要再變成只有一家公司這個我是不是讓台電來說明一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3687.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3708.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那個報告委員這幾年台電當然針對電源法的相關規定做了一定程度的準備最重要的準備就是台電針對它的業務功能成立了幾個不同的系統比方說發電一個系統核能一個系統輸電配電都各自有系統而這些系統的運營的狀態財務的狀況都有辦法獨立的統計出來去評比它的經營績效 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3715.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3739.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
所以你現在是說你們已經有這幾個獨立系統的運作底下你們覺得還是在一個原來的母公司的這個整體的管理之下會是比較好運行的是的跟委員報告首先第一個事情是把一個自然壟斷的產業透過法律的規範拆開這個大家都知道英國當時保守黨的那個嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3740.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3750.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
主席就是柴契爾夫人提出來的政策這個影響全世界非常久很多國家也都做到相應的政策但最近連英國自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3751.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3767.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
都開始反向都把過去把電業拆開要走成整合所以我覺得這個是國際的潮流看到英國的狀況看到法國的狀況也是你們現在決定還是把它合併還是把它維持一個母公司的最主要的原因嗎以台灣的狀況來講這是一個比較合適的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3771.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3794.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
好來部長那您覺得就是說現在的這樣的一個修法的進度對於台灣未來的整體能源發展或者是說對於台電未來的整體的發展會不會有更大的幫助大家現在一直在講台電的虧損問題那包括我們在講到這個國際燃料大漲甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3796.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3824.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我们中油最近去跟美国LNG签了一个大单对于台美关系对于台湾的整个能源政策能源问题是否能够得到有效的缓解呢是 谢谢委员崔迅这个部分我想如果不把它拆分的话为此目前的运作方式对台电应该是最适合的因为他们习惯这样的一个运作模式而且知道在过去那段日子 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3824.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3843.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
發生過什麼樣的問題那要面對過去的這個問題他現在可以提出可以解決的方式所以我們遵從委員剛才提示的部分我們認為委員所主張的這種不拆分的方式應該是最好的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3844.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3860.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
不拆分我是支持啦但是我其實想要看到更多台電在對於強化電網這一塊所做的努力啦因為我們都一直講說維持供電的穩定是一個很基本的需求嘛現在不拆分讓台電還是一家 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3861.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3877.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
完全壟斷的公司在處理這些輸配電業所以台電就必須要擔負更重的責任我們一直講要強化電網的韌性但是你們要擔負更重的責任甚至你要投入更多的投資你才有辦法在電網的韌性這一塊去把它強化起來但是現不在台電的虧損這麼多錢你們還有錢要去強化電網韌性 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3885.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3911.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
我們現在大概會導入用AI的方法然後讓他產生智慧的這個電網然後我想這個會強化他整個人性透過算力來觀察他可能未來有什麼樣的變化所以我們對這一部分因為新的科技的導入對台電的這個營運我們更具信心部長新的科技導入也要需要很多電來 董事長你好像有話要講來 給你說明一下報告部長報告委員那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3912.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3935.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
其實台電不分割不代表台電就是會維持既有的壟斷的狀況跟委員報告就是現在民營的發電業跟民間需要綠電的廠商他可以直接交易台電只負責做快遞就是鼎泰豐可以賣給想要吃小籠包的人台電做Foodpanda |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3936.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3957.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
我並沒有把小籠包壟斷下來我要跟委員報告現在的狀況台電只有在輸電這個輸配電這個會在自然壟斷的這一塊國家經營而它現在越來越多的發電其實包括我們的機組是在配合著產業需要綠電在做調度我要跟委員報告這一塊是 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3959.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3983.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
好 如果是你剛剛講的啦你只負責當fupenda你只負責當快遞的時候其實你的快遞業務也要增加啦沒錯你的書配店的這個工程的供給量其實也要快速增加你才能達到你剛剛所講的這一塊啦這也是任性電網的其中一環嘛 是的這些是公共投資尤其是維持任性這一件事情都是額外投資所以需要國家支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3985.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3996.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
即使我們現在的電源法修完之後我覺得你的公共投資的這個部分還是要持續增加是的好謝謝好謝謝邱毅寅委員那我們下一位請張祺凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4028.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4033.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
過去三年電價已經漲了四次了 最近如果再漲就已經是第五次了 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4035.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4056.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
如果再漲電價 對民生衝擊很大小吃店啦 一些商家 甚至可能連便當都要大幅漲價了然後對工商業發展衝擊也會很大一些企業啦 對不對 你以前從企業來嘛光是電價一上來 對很多企業影響就很大 真的要再上第五次的電價嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4058.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4069.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
報告委員我想如果說我們用比較這個科學理性的方法來討論的話我們必須要知道說電價對它所佔的比率有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4071.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4093.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
所以影響的這個變數有多少然後影響的金額有多少我想不至於因為每一個產業不會一樣那我們當然會把這樣的狀況因為我們這一次的電價審議委員裡面也有這個工業總會的代表也有商業總會的代表我想他們會充分的 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4093.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4112.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
反映給所有的這個委員就這個委員您所關注的這個命題我想他們會去討論但是經濟部只能夠這按照他審議委員會的這樣的一個結論我們來執行部長最可憐的是人民了一般的民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4114.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4133.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
以後整個物價的那個一定是推升了嘛對不對人民就等於是受到很大的一個衝擊以後去買東西就變貴了嘛等於是薪水沒有漲可是呢薪水被這個物價上漲又吃掉被電價吃掉了然後影響到我們的工商業那另外你剛剛提了一個點所以我呼籲菩薩為因啦眾生為果 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4138.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4151.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
漲電價這個惡果一直在漲已經漲了40次第五次要再漲這個惡果應該去看那個原因在什麼地方啊你剛講說那經濟部經濟部當然有責任啊電價為什麼會漲就是你的能源政策跟你的能源結構影響了電價嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4154.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4178.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
電價審慮委員會在審的時候你如果你每次都是用最便宜的核電不用最貴的這個綠電拼命買又出現一些必要買太貴有這兩個原因那當然就會漲啊所以經濟部很有責任啊經濟部你要菩薩為因你要去知道那個因對不對你要回過頭去想說現在全世界人家為什麼都要重新用核電最穩定最便宜嘛那你只要做了這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4179.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4201.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
就不用漲電價啦而且全世界都在做連美國AIT的處長都跟你講我們可以幫台灣那你不做這個惡果當然人民就會覺得經濟部沒有盡到責任或者賴清德總統沒有盡到責任這是第一個嘛第二個綠電來我們看一下這個是電價審議委員會的一個成員啦也是我們商總的理事長許書柏 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4204.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4224.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
開會的時候他應該就要在場了 他說什麼就是我剛剛講 要去找那個原因出來嘛 對不對你如果原因把它處理好 就像生病一樣你如果是因為核電的問題 是因為綠電問題 你把它處理好那就不用漲電價 搞不好還可以降喔你看 時事部跟他說探究台電的這個成本結構啊 時事部說沒錢看出來台電今年大概虧損414億 主要來自於哪裡加大對綠能的採購 增加了 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4231.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4247.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
因為綠電的問題至少都增加了300億的虧損所以解決綠電的問題啊綠電我已經提了好幾次啊你買了太貴這是一個原因想辦法把價格降下來更重要你現在馬上在做你現在已經在賣RE30嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4249.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4255.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
30你現在綠電開始賣啊加快速度現在不是漲電價你只要加快賣綠電的這個速度你是5、6塊買的你現在都用髒電3、4塊賣出去當然虧損300億、400億就出來了你趕快把綠電如期賣出去讓我們的企業可以買到綠電 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4266.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4293.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
這個台電不要虧損就不要漲電價三年啊報告委員我想這個需求跟供應才是真相關我想價格是決定於需求跟供應之間我們當然希望供應這個R1-30但是如果需求沒有那麼大我還是沒有辦法供應給它因為這個電它有需要才會來跟我們購買今天上次不就開口說需要110度的這個地電嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4294.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4314.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那個委員那個請你找出那個100億度的客戶給我他確實需要綠電嘛他回來需要綠電嘛對不對你找他來給我啊我一定賣給他啊然後很多企業都來陳情都需要綠電嘛問題是這個100億度的這個是假的命題假命題所以我們不用討論假命題就是很多企業確實需要綠電嘛我們一定會如果今天今天有綠電的需求而買不到我的綠電 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4325.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4328.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
麻煩委員直接告訴我我一定拿去給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4329.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4357.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
所以你要加速嘛這也是你的責任當然當然你現在目前我統計你每年買300億度的綠電進來你只賣出去10%當然太少啊你現在要賣就要趕快我的意思就是你應該是加快賣綠電的速度這個計劃是不是讓台電董事長跟你報告一下沒有時間過了來只要收入增加當然就不要漲這個人民的電費嘛對不對這是不是很大投資台電是不是要虧另外一個洞出來了看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4358.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4383.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我們最近啊 跟美國阿拉斯加天然氣開發公司簽約我看部長你也在場嘛 對不對照片上面也有你嘛是說要合作啊 不只買他們的天然氣合作要建造一條價值440億美金的出油管道476億多少錢台電要出多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4387.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4406.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
我們還沒有決定 我們是意向數 意向數如果用440億的一半 220億美金就是6600億喔台電 台當然不是我現在提醒 台電不用挖一個大黑洞 你看台電沒用 少一千億 綠電600 綠電600你這個基本假設又是不存在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4416.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4428.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我們簽意向書不是只有我買他50分的不可能嘛這個是美國的東西他要賣給日本賣給台灣要賣給韓國甚至賣到菲律賓我怎麼可能占50%我現在不是說賣天然氣天然氣的那個天然氣的輸油管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4435.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4453.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
這一條駕駛要建造要440億美金我現在在提醒你我的訊息440億是天然氣而不是這個油管所以您的這個資訊是不是要再correct一下這是會長親你們政府的媒體自由時報下來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4459.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4476.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那不管是輸油管或者你剛說的這個要去挖天然氣我們要投資4400億的多少錢我現在只是提醒啦投資當然是可以的可是金額看起來很嚇人喔如果是像這個440億裡面兩邊要合作對不對你如果要一半的話220億的美金就是六千六百億喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4479.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4507.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
欸我們一年的總預算才三兆欸我們台積電已經去投資了一千億美金了你那個假設是過度的啦不可能的事啦所以差不多多少不可能五十萬我們現在要我們要投資多少也是人家對方同意啊而且這裡面牽扯到其他的鄰國他們也都需要所以不是說你要五十%他就可以保住部長那你意向說跟人家簽了裡面簽了裡面你不管是你剛剛在講的挖天然氣或者是這個輸油管 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4507.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4519.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
你到底要出多少錢你都沒有沒有一個沒有一個比較細膩算過你沒有財務的算過你就簽了這個報告委員這一個案子是2031年以後才會發生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4520.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4540.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
你簽個意向書你都要簽之前都沒有先做才有表示我們這個是有興趣我們可以支持他這個遊警去開發這個是我們現在的意向嘛至於投資多少錢不是契約這個是意向書所以我跟委員報告就是契約跟意向書是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4541.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4570.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
現在意向書先簽嘛對不對可是兩邊要進一步的談然後要先做參與安顧你剛剛這個你的圖片拍得非常好啊上面寫投資意向書嘛不是寫投資契約書嘛你在上面嘛那你都已經簽了意向書上面沒有金額上面沒有金額我跟委員報告就是沒有金額美國在講說光是這個輸油管道就要440億啊那你講的又是另外的錢我現在是在提醒啦島主當然可以不過金額都很大好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4571.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4581.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
不要又挖了一個大洞不要挖了一個大洞以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後賠錢以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4582.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4605.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我們買的是大案價你現在簽了意向書裡面有牽扯到可能要投資多少錢沒有沒有沒有那沒有的話至少至少不要進一步的時候一定要做財務評估報告委員我們不方便在這裡跟你報告這些鉅細靡遺的事情啦這個很抱歉這裡面牽扯到什麼整理人道事件出去怎麼當然會你如果要知道你要知道那麼你拒絕我就跟你報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4606.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4632.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
來報告啦 這個應該是公開的 要讓全民知道啦好不好我們希望這個投資是賺錢的不要投資又賠錢發生以後一定會報告如果有進度隨時報告好不好不過要提醒的是不要進去又花了很多錢然後到時候要找人進去 一定要慎重好不好投資是要賺錢的 要注意好不好 好 謝謝好 來 謝謝好 謝謝張其凱委員那我們現在請陳廷飛委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4646.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4648.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
謝謝主席 我們是不是請部長好來請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4653.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4683.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
但是那個主席在還沒開始之前我想確認一件事情因為我的提案也有第二條第六條十一條十五條二十四條三十五條四十七條七十四條七十五條還有七十八條之一還有八十條我本身的提案也已經進到我們委員會了只是我本身又多了一個五十二條比院版多了五十二條所以呢我是不是可以確認說我的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4683.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4693.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
跟我们这一次今天所讨论的也应该要并进来否则我的提案里面也有第2条第6条11条15条24条35条47条74条75条78条之一还有80条 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4699.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4719.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所以這個部分可以麻煩主席主席主席主席主席主席我說我的提案我自己本身電業法有提案那我的提案也有第二條第六條十一條十五條二十四條三十五條四十七條七十四條七十五條七十八條之一還有八十條 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4720.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4742.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
都有但是因為我多了一個52條那有關於這個店家可能大家比較爭議的部分所以這個不排進來我沒有意見但是呢前面這個跟院板一樣的是不是也應該併進來這個部分再麻煩主席採視一下要不然我的就在空中飛啊我怎麼在空中飛這個部分再拜託 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4746.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4769.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
這次的審查是以院版為主因為院版的比較沒爭議所以我不堅持就是說院版沒有爭議所以我的這一次沒有排進來那OK就是院版的先處理那我的部分另外就是說因為這裡面跟院版都沒有異議所以也應該要併進來謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4772.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4790.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那我之後再看對因為我的已經都附委了已經在我們委員會了謝謝那謝謝主席我要問一下部長請教一下部長就是說我們現在媒體一直在炒說電價4月就要開始凝長6%而且這個6%是會影響到民生物價喔部長這怎麼辦而且是904萬戶喔這非常嚴重喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4802.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4819.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
這怎麼辦報告委員我想這個您漲6%這個訊息應該是媒體報導我們不知道他是從哪裡來的訊息如果最後也是漲6%我們在內部的討論並沒有討論到這一條沒有討論到這一條沒有討論到這一條就我在主持的會議裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4830.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4847.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
沒有這個6%這樣的一個案子部長因為我們要擔心的是說我們目前本來就是去年去年我們用追加但是現在沒有過在協商當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4848.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4864.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
追加要做撥補 由我們政府來做撥補的動作 沒過一千億然後在這一次也一樣一千億 我們是要編列預算的是被直接刪掉這樣的一個缺口兩千億 兩千億耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4867.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4883.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我覺得這個意見在當時候就大家都沒有意義就是要政府來撥補可是為什麼碰到政治議題又改變了我一直強調電價是民生經濟的議題不是政治的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4885.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4898.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
所以現在面臨去年的追加1000億沒有過 還在空中飛然後在今年的1000億是直接被刪掉 這個怎麼辦然後現在媒體又傳出說 馬上4月要漲6% |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4903.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4924.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那部長說沒有這個訊息好那最後如果真的這個缺口沒辦法電價審議委員會就給他大刀一砍那怎麼辦報告委員我想這個所謂的您剛才所指導的這個2000億的部分事實上我想政府本來就是有準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4925.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4947.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那在我們這個經濟委員會各位委員也都非常的睿智只刪了我們30億但是送到大園區以後才被刪掉的所以我們當然是非常的難過啦因為這個事情基本上這個補助2000億的目的是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4948.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4964.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
讓我們台電的舉債的這個金額能夠下降我們現在是負債4000多億嘛那下降2000億我們大概利息就會差了差不多50億這個部分是對我們來講在財務上面有很大的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4967.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4985.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
補助讓我們台電的同仁也比較有信心說政府有在照顧他們不然的話他們你看看颱風來他們半夜都要去這個救災做了半死結果呢這個政府的好意要到這個要來補助我們台電的財務經理 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4987.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5005.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
這怎麼辦啦如果這樣的話大家擔心的是這後續如果真的漲了電價所影響的是物價而且現在大家越講是越明喔連%都出來了好這怎麼辦所影響的部分這可能更多喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5005.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5032.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我個人是沒有收到這樣的一個方向的資訊那麼這個坊間大家在推論的部分我也不知道是從哪裡來的部長我真的要拜託因為我們今天為了要省電源法時間有限我要拜託這個電價民生的電價真的不能動一動下去連我們說的物價非漲上去我告訴你漲上去之後就回不來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5033.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5051.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
民生物價真的民生物價關鍵在這個店的問題所以真的我們民生的店價不能漲是這個部分部長我要拜託我們會充分的這個考慮這個真的要拜託還有你剛剛有講到一點就是說台電員工的福利 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5052.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5057.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
就像你說的 套房落戶 風台廳 人在休息他們在第一算 要去清修 要去做回鄉的工作但是他們的福利其實一直都沒有很大的增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5068.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5084.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
所以雖然我們部長有說我們國營事業明年也會隨著軍公教條件3%但是目前其實我們很久沒動了所以國營事業起薪都3萬出頭啊所以這個部分其實已經有很大的gap |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5085.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5104.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這部分要怎麼去把它做一個調整還有就是技術有一些我們看到的有證照的這些技術工我們要怎麼增加他的福利要不然技術工都是第一時間套房就好 一定都要出去因為都要技術工因為如果當電的時候沒電的時候燒下來 電線燒下來這部技術工是沒辦法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5112.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5126.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
被管被給這個部分也應該給他們有一個好的保障所以包括他們的意外險等等我覺得這都是我們應該來協助的所以部長這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5128.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5156.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
我是覺得我們通常看到他們這麼辛苦我們都希望用很多撥補的動作來協助把這個gap這個缺口把它彌平下來可是我覺得我們這兩千億我們不要管這兩千億了第一點我們的店價民生店價不能漲第二我們台電的員工他的薪水福利一定要兼顧要照顧要做好謝謝我們會來努力好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5157.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5169.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
好 謝謝廷輝委員我們等一下再來 我再跟委員討論那個法案怎麼處理我們下一位請楊瓊英委員質詢楊瓊英主席邀請部長好 請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5188.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5200.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
部長好 早上本席在法案題討論的時候我特別提出電源法第六條的規定那麼台電也必須在2026年1月1日前就完成長網的分離轉型為控股母公司 拆成發電輸配電 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5209.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5235.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
以及售电三家公司但是本席也说了因为时事环境社会的一个现象产生俄乌战争之后呢全球整个能源市场剧烈的一个变动许多的国家选择重新调整他电业的结构而我国也要达成2050年净零碳排的政策目标就需要大型的综合电业来执行绿电 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5235.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5263.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
的一个囤购那么以及新能源如地乐的开发跟投资那么如果把台电这个拆分那恐导致我们整个供电稳定性的一个下降甚至影响国家能源的安全所以在这样的一个条件之下本校请教部长本席的提案电液法第六条的修正案我也希望台电能够维持整个这个综合电 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5265.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5290.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這個綜合電業型態喔那麼請教部長你的看法這個委員的您這個支持綜合電業繼續走這個跟我們院內的版本完全是一樣所以你是支持本席的提案我們支持這個委員的提案好好的讓這個供電能夠穩定那麼同時也能夠跟世界來接軌這是非常重要這也就是我們大家一定 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5290.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5303.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
要怎麼樣好好的來討論我們整個能源政策以及經營的方式那接下來本席要跟你討論的是在中研院的永續中心它的一個評估說我國每一年大概要2800億度的用電 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5306.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5328.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那到了2050年我們可能要5000億度那即便我們的再生能源每一年我本期的統計可以提供大概271度那預估在2050年的時候可以上升到1000億度但是如果照這樣的一個數字我們還上缺再生能源的部分是4000億度那可是我們馬上可用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5332.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5337.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
無碳電力恐怕就是合二跟合三了那至於我們現在所推動的天然氣去碳海洋能 生殖能 地熱能等需要努力的找很多的方法來去產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5348.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5370.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那逐漸攀升的這個用電已經刻不容緩我相信這也是部長你必須也是政府必須要嚴肅的去應對跟重視所以在去年的時候給一個這個面向唯獨率先來擁抱核能與美國能源公司簽署了為期20年的核電採購協議那亞馬遜Google也都陸續的拍板做 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5376.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5400.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
核電的採購來確保整個電力的穩定供給他們自家的AI資料中心可以使用Google早已經在我們台灣2013年開始他就在我們台灣設立資料中心目前他們也正在佈局第三座的資料中心微軟在我們我國的資料中心是在2020年開始使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5402.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5413.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
亞馬遜在去年也宣布在台灣要建構第三部第三座的這個資料中心喔那麼我們的能源政策就目前為止是在非核家園嗎是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5415.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5434.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
非核家園是我們在目前為止目前我們的核管法上面有規定是非核家園那如果說我們目前一樣我們對核電的這個觀點是這樣就三個基本原則第一個安全無虞第二個全民有共識第三個核廢料 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5435.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5463.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
必須要能夠處理目前最大的問題是在核廢料可不可以處理現在到目前為止大家都口頭說可以處理願意來協助處理但是要在哪裡處理這個是一個非常大的問題大家都不願意所以部長你現在的回答你的三大原則那結果還是目前我們的面向就是在非核家園所以本席要請教在非核家園的政策下 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5463.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5490.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
能夠填補這個龐大的供電缺口嗎我們正在努力的努力的往這個目標在前進所以你現在是核的部分是開放所以我之前有回答委員講說我有可能透過買電的方式來讓我們的備份可以買來做買電的方式就是包括核電備電還是包括核電是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5491.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5507.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
買來的電力裡面就是包括核電市場上面需求什麼電我們哪個地方比較不足我們會買所以是包括你買的核電成本的問題嘛是成本是最便宜啊現在1.12元啊我如果要更貴的電大家就說你這是圖利嘛本席可以解讀部長您剛才所說的回答也就是你預估要備電的部分也包括購買核電 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5522.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5548.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
這個購買核電應該是就是說剛才那個三個條件不存在的情況之下我們也可以買購買核電不存在剛剛你講的三大原則核電的三個原則核廢料可以處理全民有共識所以本席要請教那麼核電研議討論核電的占比是不是就誠如童子賢董事長所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5549.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5559.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
也是你們的副召集人所說的我們可以賺很多N個千億所以就不用來漲我們的電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5561.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5568.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
從你們整個的能源政策配比去做一個整體性的研討釜底抽薪因為如果沒有去討論我們的能源配比的部件我也歡喜聽到剛剛部長你所說的你買的電包瓜是核電的備用這個項目你點頭了所以本期希望你們要好好的去討論因為在整個科技巨頭真相來台灣投資的時候你政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5591.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5597.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
要切記不要耽誤了我們產業的一個發展我們都歡迎討論啦都在可以討論啦只要把那個法修過我們當然就是可以來好我們也請大家朝野的委員聽到部長所說的法通過之後他會循著這個方向去做我們一定尊重大院的這個決定最後一個功課我給你好一分鐘就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5615.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5641.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
美國計畫在4月2號提出了對等關稅的政策那麼針對美國徵收的高關稅且貿易最大的國家將這些國家稱為骯髒15國那據報導路透社的報導包括美國前15大貿易夥伴如墨西哥、加拿大、中國、德國、日本包括我台灣因為台灣對美的貿易量呢關稅也較高所以被列入在15國之內那請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5644.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5665.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我們如果真的是被列入在這個骯髒15國之中會對哪些的產業造成最大的影響那你的因應方案是怎麼樣報告委員我簡單的跟你報告就是說我們所有的情境分析都有所以根據這些情境我們都有對策都有對策所以也確定我們是列在15國的骯髒15國之內不管有沒有列在骯髒15國之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5673.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5701.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我們都有做狀況分析 情況分析我們也都有對策你有對策 所以我也要敬請敬請我們部長一定要嚴正以待因為我們產業都蠻緊張的當然針對關稅以及上次所提的匯率的問題是務必請你一定要隨時了解最新的進度協助我們的產業是謝謝好 謝謝謝謝楊瓊英委員那下一位請張家俊委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5708.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5727.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
主席我們雖然是4分鐘4加1但每個人都講10分鐘欸下次就乾脆就8分鐘好了好謝謝主席我想請部長好請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5735.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5750.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
部長今天雖然是省電業法但是我想所有不分朝野的委員大家最關心的就是要不要漲電價這件事情本席相信請問部長如果加上這一次這三年來是第幾次漲電價了您知道嗎您記得嗎從2022年到現在這一次會漲電價嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5759.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5766.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
報紙大家都在寫所以你覺得你支持動長嗎我先問一下部長 部長你是支持動長嗎我們不是因為報紙在做行政的是 電價審議委員會28號即將會舉行那是不是部長的態度呢部長態度今天是告訴我們說你支持動長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5783.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5788.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那我先問你2022到現在已經漲了幾次了過去到現在我的任內是兩次了 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5798.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5811.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
反正總共是四次了啦四次是他的任內你問我幾次我的任內我印象只有兩次啊那本席再問你一個問題假設假設喔假設28號真的漲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5815.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5817.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
真的漲了就像現在報章媒體而且是各大報都說了民生11%總體6%這5次加起來你知道要漲多少%嗎漲多少我算給你聽別人漲80%啦我們到目前才漲40%啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5833.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5841.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
你先看一下 漲了48.9%本來假設他的電費是1000塊一個月他就要改繳1500塊一個月所以呢 現在本席希望能夠提醒部長的是現在收到的消息是連最基本的120度以下的住宅用電都不放過 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5862.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5868.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
您支持您的態度我就問您的態度120度以下的住宅用電要不要放過有誰他們家用電可以用20度以下120度120度不是20度所以我想要請問一下部長你知道48.9%是將近一半這是一個鋪天蓋地的大幅度120度它的電費只有1.68元一度喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5891.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5910.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
錢啊錢都是錢啊那你的成本你要講你又不用核電對不對你現在五月全部都沒有了你本來最便宜的1.41元的核電都沒有了再講到今天核電只占我所有的發電裡面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5911.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5918.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
現在本席希望做一個建議啦 是不是331度以下的民生用電不要漲啦這是不是補兌 可以裁釋一下啦發電是其中的一部分喔我的輸配電的成本是很怕人的喔你相信啦 部長 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5929.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5942.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
你要想 你一直在比照說韓國 我們如果跟韓國的店價一樣我們台店就不會賠錢啦但你要知道韓國的基本薪資是多我們1.46倍假設按照他的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5944.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5955.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
平均的物價指數來講的話你這樣講是不合理的你不能夠只用韓國來比你知道韓國現在還有20幾%的核電20幾%的核電你怎麼不學他呢我們來討論經濟的問題這個是我非常高興好 然後我再問你電業法好 來 電業法 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5969.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5996.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
2017年民進黨修法說要求台電在2025年前完成發電出配電售電分離然後促進這個市場競爭那這一次呢要再修回來我也支持說維持他的整體性可是呢我就不能理解說為什麼當初要猜說的這麼冠冕堂皇今天又不要猜那既然是這樣子的話當初的決定是不是不專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5998.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6018.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
報告委員 我二十年前是拿Nokia的手機啦剛出點了新要把它拆掉好 你這句話 我就想要等你這句話就是時空背景不一樣我們現在台灣面臨的要漲電價然後要等於是所有的民生物價都要漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6020.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6030.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
這是小老百姓的痛苦耶現在的時空背景是不是也跟以前不一樣呢以前電價便宜啊現在電價貴啊所以既然電業法當初說要拆分現在決定不拆分那是不是你們過去說要不要核能現在為了我們民生電價要穩定也可以改用核能啦對不對報告委員20年前民生的電價比現在還便宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6049.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6050.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
現在的電價比20年前的電價要便宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6061.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6087.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
330度以下但是你現在還是要漲它呀你現在還是要漲它不是嗎所以成本已經變那麼多啦所以你要降成本嗎你核能最便宜你不用到底是什麼原因嘛法令 法令規定嘛所以我問你一個問題剛才很多委員問你問你說假設修法你支持本席就問你一句嘛假設修法你支持嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6088.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6089.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
報告委員我們尊重立法院 我們尊重大院的決定報告委員您剛剛所說的與時俱進嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6111.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6136.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
法令也應該是與時拘禁我們會與時拘禁那你這邊也要提出你的版本啊你的態度我們都希望支持就是你如果是支持說核能可以重啟的話那大家一起來嘛草野大家一起來讓我們全台灣用便宜的電啊好嗎謝謝謝謝委員指導好我們張委員也是說到欲罷不能待會都有審議的時候可以再講來我也要繼續說 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6140.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6158.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
等一下可以再講我們等一下處理條文可以再講來下一位請李玉琳委員質詢謝謝主席請郭部長好請郭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6168.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6185.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
委員好 部長今天我們主席特別排了這個電液法的修法就是要讓我們台電能夠在穩定的營運之下穩定供電尤其是我們民生跟產業尤其是今天會來對於這個電液法的修法是2017年 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6186.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6214.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那時候就有要求台電在2025年要拆分為發電跟輸配電跟售電就是長網分離啦那這長網分離的情況下最主要就是讓我們整個這個電業都能夠在自由的市場自由化要讓他們自由化那在自由化的情況之下才能夠讓整個像現在已經在做的就是再生能源他們整個售電業者他們之間都已經互相在做一個交易了所以本心想請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6216.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6230.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
因為學者都在講說你們不做就是不要讓整個電業市場自由化那現在部長你要怎麼樣來讓台電在穩定的營運之下又可以做到電業市場能夠自由化來減少台電整個對於產業的市場的衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6235.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6249.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
是 報告委員我們大概因為看到這個整個國際的趨勢都已經開始這個自由競爭那轉為這個強化管制跟整合因為畢竟我們的這個在台灣這麼小 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6251.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6279.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那这个资源是有限的你再把它拆开我想这整个不管在营运上面或者管理上面都会有问题不拆开怎么样让这个产业自营那我们我们这个过去各国都是采用补贴啦或者设定价格上限啦那么开征报税报利税或者这个来确保这个电价的平稳但是我们要怎么做我们当然是这个这个参考其他的这个这个国家先进国家他们的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6279.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6288.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
或者來比對我們台灣自己本身的資源有多少那我想這個是比較快速的方法但我們自己內部也討論我們自己內部也討論認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6291.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6313.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
拆開可能那個時候的情境是適合拆開的但是現在來講以現在來講我面臨的是我現在必須要快速的讓我台電更具有競爭力所以我要用各種的方法把過去我在這個疫情期間在各種方法之下拿到的這個補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6314.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6339.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
是不是可以請大院能夠幫我們再爭取給我們這些你不能一直靠補助啦能源配比我們的能源才是最重要的我們那個是用共產來補助我們的國人所以那個部分不是台電的責任台電要變成一個好的公司除了這個不拆開以外它必須要有穩定的財政那最重要的我們要讓整個電業市場穩定的話就是要有管理機制對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6340.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6368.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
要有好的管理在106年的時候我們通過修正之後的話希望這個電源法在一年後能夠開公聽會來成立一個管理的機關那現在的管理機關的話我們本身我們的電力辦公室裡面就有叫請能源署來作為這個管理機關那能源署的話上下就是你們的所屬嘛那這樣子的話有沒有求嚴兼裁判沒有辦法讓我們整個獨立出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6372.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6382.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
報告委員我們在這一方面管理的方面我們是採取開放的態度開放可是能源署的話你未來是不是要請這個管理機關就是能源署 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6384.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6401.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我們當然是要先這個社會整個都在監管整個監管沒有錯我們在希望說你獨立在政府以外的機關來管理的話才有公平性跟透明才能夠適時的作為監督跟接避的方式謝謝委員這個方面我們會來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6405.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6414.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
可是我們現在看到的是整個電業市場沒有辦法分離的話你們就要把管理機制一套做出來才能夠讓整個電業市場能夠穩定自由化會的你們會做到嗎會 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6419.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6439.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那部長那尤其是說我們現在看到整個電價審議你剛剛特別講到如果漲電價這個是電價審議小組的事情可是你要看到我們剛剛幾個委員都提到了我們不能每次都拿跟韓國比韓國現在他們的平均他的電價大概都比我們多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6439.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6452.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
一塊錢相差一塊錢可是我們的薪資所得我們台灣大概在37K 韓國在60K也比我們比較高在不一樣的水平之下這樣子比較是不對的所以其實整個電價審議委員會會不會漲電價完全是還是有看上級長官也是部長你們這邊可以有 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6461.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6489.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
妥占性的這個給他們建議最重要還是要回歸一句話不要漲民生電價因為已經漲了這麼多了我們也給你補助了 補助了500億還有給你們增資了2500億就3000億了所以歸本要處理要解決的問題還是屬於能源政策整個配比才能夠來幫助我們整個電能夠穩定的供應才是最重要的好不好謝謝委員的協助但是我們在COVID-19那段期間一共花了6000億 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6490.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6510.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
所以我們也補了三千億給你所以我們還不足三千億不足的話我們要想辦法解決這個問題不是一直靠撥補啦我們都努力在想辦法解決這些問題對 能源政策也是很重要的一個方式你要解決這個配比的問題好不好好 謝謝李玉玲委員那下一位請賴瑞榮委員質詢好 謝謝主席 請郭部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6527.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6551.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
國務長辛苦了聽前面質詢的這段時間啊其實感覺到就是台電又要馬而好又要馬而不吃草不喝水就是說整個條件上面其實大家過往大概採用的最多都是用國家撥補的方式來支持台電然後能夠穩住這個民生的電價穩住整個物價結果現在明明就很清楚這個因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6552.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6577.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
二五戰爭的關係油料漲了增加了6000億的一個虧損那這個部分你若不做處理的話那當然國家撥補嘛那你若都不撥補的話那當然就有漲電價的壓力那你又不准它漲又不給它撥補那又要它台電能夠存活下去這不是矛盾嗎部長同意這樣的看法嗎謝謝委員的這個指教我們非常同意您的看法所以我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6577.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6601.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那如果老師要講到什麼核能的部分那環境基本法第二三條講得非常清楚非核家園嘛如果政府當然就依法行政嘛台電一定依法行政環境部也依法行政嘛那如果朝野能夠達成共識對於核能安全對核廢料的處理對於整個國家對於核能有共識的話那當然也可以來面對嘛但是沒有人要啟動這樣的一個討論跟處理你要台電怎麼去做這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6602.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6615.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我想這就是大院所有的委員只要有一份心考慮到我們的國人應該都會來啟動這樣的一個討論那我認為是誰來發動這樣的一個修法我想都 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6623.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6641.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
看他對國人的這個照顧有多少我想這一點大概是我們的一個想法我想我們還是全力的支持台電因為台電就像現在這個修法方向我們國際局勢轉變了其實慢慢的特別是透過這個俄烏戰爭之後發現很多民營公司倒閉了所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6642.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6662.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
國家最後還是國家要買回因為電力一定是國家最終的責任所以最後的部分這個結構的改變過去的局勢大家希望分散看看能不能市場自由化能夠結果發現這一套的模式其實恐怕是不可行最後還是要國家承擔人民也沒辦法接受電力出問題啦所以最後這件事情還是要回到國家負起總責任所以是修法的主要原因嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6663.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6689.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
當然我想因為這樣子因為台灣這個地緣政治我想極端氣候造成這個地緣政治的改變過去的全球化已經結束了現在來講我們必須要靠自己在這個區域上面去努力那麼電業對我們來講我們台灣這麼小但是我們的這個受眾這麼多我們當然一定只能有一家公司不可能彼此再去競爭因為我們要考慮到 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6691.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6718.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
電跟我們的生命有正相關所以安全生命這個是台電服務國人這個不可或缺的一個它涉及到很多人身的基本的需求甚至於國家安全甚至於淨零碳排的目標甚至於整個國家上的需要那甚至有很多肩負著國家的任務國家要你做你就是必須做嘛所以說這個有時候是為什麼台電必須要由國家來更那個所以我想這個修法像 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6719.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6734.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我們全力支持謝謝委員再看一下其實各國在面對這些也都是用普通電力來做抗通膨的部分唯獨台灣唯獨台灣最辛苦其他的從五千多億七千多億五千多億只有台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6735.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6751.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
給了你這個500之後 然後甚至讓你增資之後然後剩下的就不給你了 剩下3000億要你想辦法 又不准你擋建價這實在是 我認為是個矛盾啦就是說 你要馬兒好 又要馬兒不吃草不喝水 你要馬兒怎麼活下去這完全是不合理的 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6752.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6771.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
整個電價跟物價其實跟自由化也會相互連動啦如果你要走向自由化的話那就好 心理準備可能就會產生相關的電價不佳那我們又希望穩定住物價 又希望穩定住電價所以當然就要朝這個方向來走所以我再回到啦 當然剛剛部長稍微否認掉了啦沒有所謂那個6%漲電價這事情 沒有這事吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6774.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6792.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
報告委員我想6%或者8%或者12%我確實沒有在我主持的會議裡面有這種討論那第二個呢這個6%是怎麼計算來的我也不清楚不過因為電價不是經濟部或者經濟部長可以決定的事情這個是由電價審議委員他們根據當時那個時候的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6798.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6822.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那麼確定以後才能夠決定這個電價這個電價審議委員裡面也有工業總會的代表也有商業總會的代表有各個民間企業的代表所以基本上經濟部我們只能提供我希望經濟部表達出你們的態度像昨天我看總統到台東去也講了嘛你與其發一萬元出去在野黨的訴求發一萬跟支持來這些錢來支持台電 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6823.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6842.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
就給台電效益來得更大對國家更有幫助因為它能夠穩定住電價同時也能夠讓台電永續經營我們認為這個是一個比較正確的方向謝謝委員這個我們也很感謝總統能夠提示如果這個大院你們願意給我們這個一千億的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6843.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6859.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我相信這個對這家電價審議委員會有非常明確的提示所以我希望的是應該朝這個方向除了既有的兩條路以外第三條路其實是支持就是增加那因為現在我上次也提過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6859.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6885.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
新的民意有可能七八月再出現那因為你一旦調漲了以後就回不來了有些東西起來回不來現在蠢蠢欲動啦很多蠢蠢欲動 電價幾乎是基本的我還希望這件事情在審議委員會裡面呢 審慎的思考啦就在這一段時間當然也許有些方案算出來 但先不要動等到了新民意出來不然萬一新民意出來的時候其實新民意是反對漲電價支持用補貼的方式的結果你民意漲上去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6885.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6907.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
物價波動的造成影響的已經來不及走回頭路了是不是能夠這個一列入其中一個選項好嗎我們提供給這個審議委員他們參考好那最後因為時間到了我再問一下骯髒十五國的部分當然有講到其實因為台灣這幾年的整個貿易順差增加相當快現在成為幾乎第六大 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6907.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6929.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那台灣也有相當大的一個壓力啦 要成為去處理的那我們採購天然氣跟未來採購石油等等 這會是未來的方向嗎除了軍購以外 採購這些的 這些石油天然氣等等會是我們的減少這個順差的一個方向嗎報告委員 我們都有針對這一些情境去做一些分析 然後研擬出對策 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6930.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6953.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
所以這有可能是未來的方向嘛今天還是要減少順差啦這麼高的順差當然川普現在的策略上面我們有各種這個嚴厲的情境啦我想這是動態好請部長就持續做一個我上次有一種是有提到大臨普遷村的部分我希望部長是不是能夠在年底啟動這個登記的程序應該是可以好朝這個方向可以啦好謝謝謝謝部長好謝謝賴瑞榮委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6957.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6981.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
那下一位請邱志偉委員質詢謝主席是不是請經濟部郭部長請郭部長能源署李軍理代理署長好那請代理署長部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6981.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7005.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
今天排定審查定義法相關修正條文我想我上回期我就提出這版本版本大概跟你運版是差不多大概有11個條文裡面大概內容大致相同那我們覺得這個幾個重點都很重要我都全力支持我們希望說今天看看今天的委員會能不能就 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7006.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7027.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
做成決議來送出委員會 我想大概跨黨派都可以支持第一個問題請教一下部長 如果台電的撥補如果能夠順利完成 如果在野黨沒有阻擋台電的撥補一千億的部分那是不是就不會有電價調漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7029.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7050.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
報告委員如果依照您剛才所說明的這個部分我們將會把具體的這個內容交給這個電價審議委員會有因就有果嘛不是有因就有果嘛如果這個果是因為這個一千億撥補沒有到位產生必須要調漲電價這個為什麼不能說呢這個邏輯這一半都可以連結啊是 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7055.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7064.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
因為我們這個撥補是來改善我們的這個財務的情況財務結構一改善它就沒有急迫性跟必要性馬上要調整電價嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7066.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7085.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
所以這部分是邏輯很清楚我這個調整電價的部分完全由這個電價審議委員會他們來做判斷不能推給電價審議委員會您是決策者那決策當然會影響到整個委員會的這個相關的判斷當然我設這1000億能夠到位對那我想我認為啦就不會有今天調長的倡議或者是討論了因為財務結構 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7090.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7111.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
已經基本上改善了所以這個是一個非常重要的變數你又不讓他撥補然後又反對這個電價調漲然後又覺得這個是你的核能政策是你的能源政策這個錯誤造成的你能源政策說你再生能源這個還沒有到位然後又提到這個廢核 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7115.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7140.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這個核能啊 我們有幾個原則 核安 核廢處理 社會共識 對不對 是我們有國民黨那麼多的執政縣市的首長 那麼多的這個立法委員還有原民的立委 他們說要請核 說你這個因為你廢核所以才會造成這個電力失衡 電力供應不足目前為止 有沒有哪個縣市首長 或者哪一個立委 區域立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7141.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7153.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
跟您提出他希望把這個核電廠核電設置設在他的選區核廢料處理廠這個報告委員這個就像人都一樣大家都想上天堂但是沒有人想死沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7155.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7176.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
不見得要上天堂啦 活得心安理得就好啦大家都想用電 但是都不想核廢料在你家附近因為要講道理嘛我們變成一個這個穩定國家的力量應該是在立法院才對因為要做服國立民的事情然後結果服國立民沒有做好如果你錯過政策 你錯過的決策 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7177.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7194.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
會變成禍國殃民對 報告委員您講得非常正確我們一定要解決核廢料可以處理我想我們不排除用各種的發電的方式但是核廢料沒有辦法處理活著不是要去上天堂 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7195.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7221.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
但你不要做到你要下地獄不是我的意思是說大家都想要上天堂但是沒有人想死啦你要做到心安理得你要讓人覺得所有的事情都擺出來讓他去做判斷所以你要不能漲然後又說你核能政策的問題沒有所有的核一核二核三這相關的廚藝都按照法律相關的規定嘛對不對是我們一定依法行事的 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7222.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7250.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
所以謝謝委員所以他說台電的虧損是因為核能然後因為再生能源發電的成本太高然後核能處理提早我當然知道不是嘛原料漲價的問題你要講清楚你要去說明白要爭取大家的理解所以我覺得大家沒有深度去思考能源政策的嚴肅性是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7252.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7276.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
然後一些媒體斷章取義把所有的能源政策說是核能的問題我深深不以為然所以到底在野黨是真的挺核還是假挺核在野黨真的挺核還是假挺核我沒有辦法判斷我覺得是假挺核所以就是一個政治操作的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7282.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7305.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
非核交易不是任何一個政黨的目標非核交易是法律規定的是法律規定對不對是再一個小問題也不是小問題啦簡單的問題也不是簡單的問題啦重要的問題封測白名單的效應是長這個是您怎麼判斷封測白名單封測 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7307.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7331.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
美國對這個有封測白名單我們有幾個廠商在白名單裡面我想我們第一個會先了解這個部分到底美國他們在指的是哪一些範圍管制範圍對這個安全的部分我們一定會全力去防止但會轉單效應然後如果這樣子激起中國加速對封測技術的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7335.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7339.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
不見得對我們 他沒有能力是不是他們沒有能力啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7341.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7368.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
報告員這個部分我是專業的我非常的專業所以才問您因為你專業所以美國封測白名單的效應對我們是短多也是長多對不對是的當然這樣很好啦我相關的機會也扮演有風險把風險降到最低把機會升到最高這是我們政府該做的事是謝謝委員所以封測這個白名單最重要的是短多也是長多是最後30秒鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7372.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7400.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
這個新達這個你知道新達海基啊新達海基那他目前要轉型轉型他不是要做製造他是要做這個相關的顧問您知道新達轉型的目前草案跟計畫要經過董事會的同意經過中綱嘛新達海基就在那邊我從他這個高樓起然後從他這個訂單沒有從他變成目前沒有人在那邊這個我每天都在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7401.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7410.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我覺得有點可惜當然當初要實行國產化你現在虧損了這個六七十億你走不下去要轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7411.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7436.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
轉型如果也要轉型變成說對未來的雲有幫助我贊成但你如果成就一個變成一個顧問公司一個諮詢的功能那我就大可不必你可以把興達海基這個基地連加起來大概四五十公頃你可以變成產業園區產業園區呢就像我爭取的北高雄產業園區包括我爭取的陸竹產業園區也已經開始在建廠已經在規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7437.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7457.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那最北邊的茄澱我們不能不照顧這個茄澱產業所以茄澱產業把它闢建成經濟部主管的產業園區啟動這個計畫之後我們把一些海洋產業把它納進來部長你同意嗎好的我們來傳負力購可能要經過跟中鋼講一下是請中鋼一個支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7458.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7474.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
把這個它可以開發整個這個工業區 產業園區然後也可以招商進來變成一個生產基地我們來評估那評估是不是一個月之內把這個可行性把它評估出來撒各位啦撒各位好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7476.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7490.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
沒有問題喔 三個月之內針對新達海經目前的基地啊拔劈建成進步主管的產業園區 三個月提出歸號報告好 好 謝謝謝謝 好 謝謝邱志偉委員那下一位請陳超明委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7501.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7521.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
主席好 首先有請我們的部長委員好 部長好剛剛接到一個消息 說媒體在報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7522.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7525.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
經濟部有開會討論電價將要漲6%那部長說沒有但是我們的紙巾總長剛剛在我們財委會裡面回答說 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7537.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7555.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
他們財政部有派人出席但是這個會議並不是部長主持會中說提到平均調漲8%有沒有這樣的事情報告委員我剛才也有在這裡跟大家報告我沒有主持過這樣的會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7557.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7572.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
所以大家所談的...我現在是漲了多少?我曉得你沒有去指示,這個我們大概多少?所以梁慶民說我...我現在是要問你重點,你不要規章引東引西的,把金錢到底漲價多少?馬上要決定了嘛!我不知道!你不曉得?這個我沒有辦法,這審議委員要不會開會啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7580.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7601.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
你現在越來越搞錯話我看報紙在寫說民生用電要漲11%企業用電要漲5%現在又有6%又有8%要漲這裡面也要早有階段嘛你搞得人心惶惶啊你這個部長要小心啦我跟你講報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7603.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7605.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
因為以前小小公司現在變成一個大公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7625.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7648.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
但是你在柏中你手下四家國營企業第一個台電現在虧損累累讓你白頭化增加了很多中油也是虧損累累你又不敢講中油被你們壓的聲音都發不出來只有默默吃這個苦頭自來水公司的時候窮窮強強勉勉強強還是在虧損之中郵件基金給撥走 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7654.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7667.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
你的台湯是來賣土地、租土地、勉強維生你提出你企業和中心這樣去做啊這個國家在你做財政經濟部長裡面有沒有改修規則呢?你有沒有什麼解決之道?簡單講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7675.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7697.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
調整電價 調整我們瓦斯價 調整我們水位 你的辦法我看只有這樣而已啦不一定啦 不一定齁 我有七個垢面啦 可以來協助他們那你趕快提一個報告 不然我現在每天都心不安慰 就要整天說 哎喲 水電要去啦 我要安裝什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7699.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7711.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
這齁,這我很怕是這樣啦我也很怕三人成虎,不一樣的事情說到變成這樣你常常不一樣的事情說到不一樣,害我們有時候要替你辯護都很困難是,謝謝委員,一定要替我辯護啦你剛剛說補錢兩千億,你們的執政黨的立委在回答問題你都微笑 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7719.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7739.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
在結黨回答問題裡面的第一件事你說兩千億為什麼要補貼兩千億你說要五十億歷史我教你 我不理你轉角你就五十億歷史來 國庫來補貼不要搞到兩千億啊稍省一點頭腦 稍賺一點就行了這樣事情就改變了是 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7743.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7749.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
好不好 你用這個思維你跟我講嘛為了五十億的歷史 國庫保護才有 大家不會說話啦你拿兩千要出來 你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7753.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7773.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
你們現在已經國庫補貼三千億 你的電費漲價大概一千億 四千億還在拿呢啊你現在還要貼兩千億 六千億掉 難怪大家會懷疑啊我們齁 當初在COVID-19的時候 隆重是動漲 影響的是六千億喔 應用的是六千億喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7775.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7791.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我跟妳說,這樣加起來,加那些太多錢,給我的政府應該有應變的技巧,不要說那些理由,替困難解決辦法,好不好?好,今天我回歸正題,電力修正法, |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7792.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7817.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我一直那電業修正法你們來拜託我說不要啦他說是中央的政策一定要分家106年以前那個民進黨執政的時候台電那時候都是賺了大錢後就像你講的要四大分支要分開像我們國安會的劉子緯說要工程類地好像要做國際的公司一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7818.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7838.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
山西啊,天有不錯的風雲,人算不如天算,你們現在起來說,啊,這樣會死的,不敢分家,不敢分割財產,不敢掠奪財產,你現在說要統一的管理,這個政策裡面, |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7839.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7846.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
我是覺得有諸多的問題存在其實如果賺錢 因為我這麼胖 準備要去賺錢現在了解了 大家心裡想要國家來負擔也有擔當的政府 不要這樣子做那你要怎麼解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7858.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7870.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我們現在就是要修改,就是說不再把它分割,維持原來的綜合電業的這樣的一個方式您愛民宿,該漲的時候漲,我每天跟你們一起喝酒,有什麼人不喝他那個時候國際物價變動,他叫漲價被罵得要死,會因為失調掙錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7883.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7908.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
你們都不可以做,不可以去,現在被台電嚴公啊,苦不堪言蔡議員蔡議員的時候在做的話是10分鐘,你不要6分鐘就站起來了我們在執行的時候你們就怕我們講多話,我愛死你了,邱志偉你什麼時候好朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7912.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7931.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
第一,您高的薪資本來,尤其吃資不容易跟我很要他說我們這個在野黨是真的挺何凡我們是直指何能,幾個要件要出來,但是我要提一個問題給你看核電最多的國家法國,美國也有,日本也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7932.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7958.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
中國大陸也有啊你說何時人的安全站是要做到哪裡去做你們的薪資百合不能打破啦你告訴我問題絕對有辦法考慮去解決的怎麼去挖怎麼找找一個卑鄙的地方補資給他們有什麼不一樣都是在找理由找藉口因為你反核一失啊這個薪資百合不而已啊掙錢不薄 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7959.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7973.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
你们讲的呼听口其实里面最重要的问题台湾的合同人才停了合同都被韩国抓走韩国抓走他现在已经建立他自己台湾的合同产业的人才都流失了 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7974.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7999.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
很嚴重那剛剛我們的召委站起來骯髒的食物狗台灣在裡面要特別特別小心尤其中小企業傳統產業會影響更大不管你到越南到哪個地方都會影響到保證要提早應用是你們要做一個報告給我們好好不好這一點第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8003.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8032.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
再來那時候張旭凱委員有問到中油跟阿拉斯加的合作你一直在講異相思異相思表示你有意願叫做異相思是哎呦保證你敢跟美國抗衡嘛450億我知道可能幾個國去參加但是最後不要去買到高的天然氣不要去投資我們只有這五這六我們低的又是高的價格 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8032.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8058.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
美國國債36兆,藝人的利息1兆美金,不給你吃飲料,給你抬抬,他沒辦法解決問題,我不是反對,但是不要買到高樓,再給中油通家困擾,給台電通家困擾,臨北的介紹,比澳洲、比沙地還可以收下來,不然這樣,不然休息啦,你休息啦, |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8061.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8079.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
報告委員 我們從阿拉斯加買油是10天就可以到台灣是運送最短的一個距離第二個 因為安全 我們走的是太平洋這條線運送短喔 澳洲幾天 中東幾天我們賣的豆最笨啦 你們不叫我們的國用四葉車代載的高揚 代載的高揚好不好是謝謝委員知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8095.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8115.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
謝謝 請部長請回座謝謝陳昌明委員質詢 非常精彩下一個質詢請這個蔡議員謝謝主席 那有請部長請進部 郭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8118.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8121.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那台電董事長 台電執行董事長 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8126.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8150.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
從早上我們在討論的主要今天我們電液法等一下的修法有討論到整個台電它整個完整性那以及未來台電要面對的一個課題那當然大家也都有討論到電價這件事情當然這個電價就是因為我們之前要用一千億來撥補台電那這個看來這個期待落空所以台電馬上要面對的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8151.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8159.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
這個有這個不足 有短少 可能要用其他的方式但是要不然不敢說我覺得 事實上還是有一些財政手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8161.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8181.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
也可以來解決台電的問題因為如果說行政院這一次就是要用1000億來面對台電的這個虧損那我想要把一些台電的一些負債的數據給部長你參考一下部長你可以看台電從105年的時候他每年的利息支出大概是180億 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8182.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8200.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那你一直看喔 到了111年的時候 它的利息支出 每年利息支出正式到了200億到了114年的時候 每年的利息支出 在我最右下的這一個 320億所以你可以想像 每一年台電就要面對320億利息沒有還本 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8205.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8229.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
光歷史就這樣所以我要跟部長建議的就是說我們還是有財政手段尤其部長你本身就是一個企業家你知道說這個企業面對虧損的時候財政手段也是一個方式那自然要面對財政手段的時候我們再把它去看台電目前跟銀行舉借的未償還的金額類總共有5997億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8235.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8259.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
這是KAM銀行的KAM銀行的這個結構我再把它細分起來你看台銀就佔了2000億是佔了37%土地銀行是佔了430億輸出入銀行佔了230億其他在於飯工股又是有包括民營的部分和庫佔的比較多1100億所以我現在要告訴大家關鍵就在財政可以解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8261.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8267.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
如果我們跟財政部大家坐下來講用財政手段難道不能用國庫舉債借給台電嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8273.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8299.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
報告委員台電來跟國庫借利息低先消米這些利息部長是這個命題我想委員在上一個會期就已經有指正過了那我們也充分的在考量所以我們經濟部可能會就我們現在這些舉債來發永續債所以我們如果發永續債我相信我們大概可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8299.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8319.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
大概可以少掉這個40%的這個利息可以少40%嘛40%就很多了耶40%的霸華業一年就少了100多億耶所以謝謝委員當時的這個提醒然後你們再仔細去看因為我們的台灣銀行跟土地銀行跟輸出入銀行這三家銀行是百分之百的關股 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8320.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8341.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
所以既然他百分之百關股 我們可以由這三家銀行來主導跟其他的民營銀行來跟他談判 請他們把利息降低如果不降低利息的話 我們就把他還掉還掉的話 他們會很難過的喔 這些民營銀行會很痛苦哇 利息不好啊 他們水的水又好 要降利息 來降 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8343.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8356.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我們如果發永續債可以降到40%好啊 我期待是說因為有這些財政手段財政手段是可以解決的尤其事實上我們也知道說預算法85條營業基金的預算的主要內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8359.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8380.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
有其中一個包括長期債務之舉借及償還長期債務這應該就是柏林你說的永續債既然說如果我們這個長期債務我們由公股銀行來主導的話利息可以談得很低在利息最低的一個情況之下把民營銀行相對利息高的把它沖掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8381.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8401.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
台電可以用財政手段來解決現在的這個狀況因為我們現在要面對的就是因為在野黨這個一千億的撥補不會讓台電倒三天嘛我們現在就沒有希望說這個電梯去蓋起來被殺一定會被資金動這是我們執政黨的原罪啊可是我們還是得面對台電的這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8403.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8404.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
所以我是覺得這個問題部長你應該帶回去然後跟行政院好好的談我們現在已經跟那個國發會就這個命題你所指導的這個命題已經深入的在檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8418.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8445.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
我希望說這個要把它持續下去是我就很精準的五分鐘謝謝委員五分鐘就完成我的質詢但是我覺得這個真的可以用財政手段對我們幫助非常大部長我相信這是你的專業因為你來自民間你知道民間遇到周轉不靈的時候總是要有一些辦法嘛是好不好不然我們這個再一起加油好不好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝蔡宇竹看楷模令人敬佩 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8447.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8475.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
部長請回座好我們下一位請謝依鳳委員質詢謝謝主席我想要請郭部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8484.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8510.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
武林好部長好你看到這是2024年我們主要的機械設備出口的統計看到了第三名的工具機以及當然以下都是傳產的類別在出口的部分消退的非常多就這個部分而言如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8511.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8532.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
就是4月開始川普提出對等的關稅然後以及稅收減免主要的就是稅收減免政策來保護他們本土的產業減少貿易逆差那這樣子對於台灣的機械產業跟相關的供應鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8534.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8556.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
是不是要被迫離開有可能去美國嗎那難道還有去哪一個地方呢那對於在台灣的這些傳產業而言勞工的權益以及就是說這些生產的問題要怎麼解決呢報告委員我想工具機這個產業來講應該輸美的機會不大 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8560.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8585.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
因為美國它的製造業其實是停滯很久了所以這一次這個川普總統那麼他要讓美國恢復這個製造業才可能有工具機的這個市場這是首先跟你報告的部分那我們對台灣的這個工具機的產業呢我們在輔導他們我們從兩個方面來輔導他第一個就提升他的技術力 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8586.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8606.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
提升它的技术力现在已经在台中有很多工具机的厂商导入AI智慧制造那这个对他们来讲未来在这个制造的这个领域的竞争力是提升非常多的第二个他们可能缺乏订单所以我们现在经济部的国贸署会针对几个市场 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8607.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8631.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
主要的市場我們會用台灣一個印象然後去那個地方來做推廣希望能夠讓台灣的工具機產業可以結合國家的力量我們國貿署過去大概就是只有讓外貿協會在市場上面去做一些展覽 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8631.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8646.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
但展覽以後大概就很少去follow up因為它的目的不在於產業的follow up不過從現在開始我們有請國貿署的同仁一定要在後續針對台灣這幾個傳統產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8649.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8668.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
給予協助也就是說我們在這個當地國我們可以找到通路商然後來告訴他們希望能夠取得通路商那麼對我們也去了解工具機工會他們需要這個我們政府什麼樣的這個協助所以我們也不斷的跟這個這幾個產業產業工會在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8672.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8696.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
那我現在對於這個供應鏈的部分我們從今年開始改變就是說對供應鏈的部分我們希望能夠紮根在台灣特別是現在有很多的產業特別受美國的影響它需要的是非紅供應鏈也就是說紅色的供應鏈過去在世界上面的肆虐的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8698.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8715.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
會轉來台灣因為如果台灣能夠替代的話我們就這個新的市場就產生了但是我要先講你說到了就是要協助他們就是導入AI然後再打磨或是相關方面其實目前中小企業他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8717.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8738.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
都還沒有開始所以我們從現在開始從下個月開始我們已經都內部溝通過了我們所有的法人機構一定要把那個產業裡面所需要的AI的這個技術跟AI的應用跟AI的那個應用場域都把它建設起來然後讓這中小微企業進來學習 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8740.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8769.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
你不主張他們離開台灣嗎沒有沒有沒有他們的我們有很多的方法就是說第一個他接近市場如果接近市場我們輔導他到這個接近市場的地方如果他是在台灣才有這些resource我們協助他在台灣壯大然後讓他我們以大帶小讓這些產業能夠集結因為我們過去的問題是規模太小 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8770.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8792.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
規模太小難以因應中國的這個大型的企業的這種這種拓展所以我們現在改變模式把台灣的中小微企業能夠整合的整合那麼強化他的這個競爭力我相信這樣子來跟這個再加上這個飛鴻供應鏈我們的機會是非常高的所以我必須要提醒部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8793.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8820.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那除了在就是說台灣以外當然很多的台商已經就是過去因為關稅的問題等等的都已經轉移到東南亞相關的國家去了那所以這一波的就是美國的對等的關稅當然就會對於這些其他在東南亞的台商也會造成了相當的影響那當然在過去以來就是有台灣接單嘛那就是其他地製造然後再輸美的這樣子一個現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8821.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8835.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
當然我們要怎麼樣子讓這些問題也是應該要注意到怎麼樣子通盤的一個解決那再來就是因為我的時間到了只是我要 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8836.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8858.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
跟部長說的 今天我們是在討論電業法的修法其實從上一屆開始 我們對於第六條電業法的第六條 輸配電就不應該從台電分離因為我們知道目前沒有分離都已經造成電價上漲的壓力這麼大了 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8860.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8883.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那如果分離以後可能會對於電價那還是電價的那個上漲的壓力會更大你要看到外國的現象他們在輸配電分離的情況下會造成外國的民眾他們的電價的那個電費的費率是比台灣高非常多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8883.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8905.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
所以如果今天第六條我們沒有把它修回來的話那可能會對於我們的這個電價的這個未來的因應會更大的產生那所以我主張我是支持楊瓊英委員等的這樣子的第六條的修正希望說我們經濟部可以來好好的面對謝謝是謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8908.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8931.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
好謝謝我們謝一鳳委員下一位請鄭天才委員質詢主席各位委員有請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8941.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8954.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
您好部長好這個大家還是非常關心這個電價這個調漲的部分那上次也跟部長提到了這個我們電費漲價 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8957.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8960.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
這個除了在20152015的4月10月還有2016的4月曾經降過降價電費漲價降價那一直到2022年開始聯繫上漲了聯繫上漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8979.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8984.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
雖然政府以人民的納稅錢分別在2023年對台電增資1500億2023年特別預算補貼500億2024年再增資1000億 總共3000億但是台電調帳還是調帳 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9001.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9025.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
從2022年這個2023、2024到今年的2024的10月今年就2027年就兩次所以這樣的一個情形這個就是上次我一再的來講如果我們看這個台電公司近10年這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9029.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9049.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
雲宇的部分從103年都賺錢到110年總共加起來就是2332億這個賺的錢如果再加上政府人民的納稅錢以了撥補給台電的3000億總共就有5300多億然後從111年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9059.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9086.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
开始严重的亏损这里面有提到有提到俄乌战争大家不能否认俄乌战争是其中之一而事实上很大的因素很大的因素就是能源政策上次跟部长提到这个总统府气候变迁委员会副召集人 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9087.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9114.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
合授董事長童子賢在這個教育文化委員會特別提到核電可以年省N個千億這個N個千億其實是如果按照他的計算是15個千億按照童子賢的計算最多可以到15個千億所以這是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9116.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9144.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
政策也有很大的因素所以這個部分如果我一再講可能我不知道我一直還沒有你們也沒有提供數字給我就是說因為我們的政策好 綠電能源署編了很多經費經濟部編了很多經費對不對協助這些綠電對不對然後台電又比較高的金額去買 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9147.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9166.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
所以這個部分部長如果你搖頭你把數字提供給我因為我已經從你第一次不只是你們還有能源署包括如果你從我第一次的質詢來講對不對我常說你是這個產業進來的我們光看那個核四對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9173.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9201.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
可是花了多少個億然後就擺在那邊根本就不符合那個嘛好重點齁重點時間的關係了齁電價審議委會預計28日前登場之前28日之前所以這個部分啊當然部長一直說我沒有參與我沒有主持沒有錯但是很多的資料很多的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9203.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9228.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
必須要由台電必須要由經濟部提供給電價審議委員會讓所有的委員能夠了解而這個資訊而這個資料就會很重要會很重要所以這個到底要不要漲其實可以不漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9230.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9259.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
所以很多的 也許這個經濟部說我們核能政策我們賴總統不會隨隨便便找個何同志賢去當那個總統府的委員 副...副...副...對不對 一定是有他的找你也是總統請你當部長 一定也有他的考量啊是希望要你勇敢的這個政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9260.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9287.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
來去推動好我們先提供一個從法例法例有明定的我們先從法例離島建設條例第14條規定離島用水用電比照台灣本島平均費力收集其營運單位應該向費力收費制產生之合理虧損由中央目的事業主管機關審核後編列預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9289.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9310.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
波普之所以法律有明定的我們由台電這幾年都是台電去吸收那政府應該編的預算對一千多億的預算都沒有編所以我們先從法律有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9311.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9338.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
先做 可以嗎 部長好 我們當然依法遵法就有法律有的我們來做對 這個沒有做的 要做是有了這個 誰都不能擋啊對不對 法律明定的趕快編預算追加預算嘛 可以辦追加預算謝謝 以上 謝謝好 謝謝鄭天才委員來 下一位請鐘嘉斌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9351.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9378.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
主席 在場委員 先進列席政治決斷事項委員會長 公眾夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請經濟部國部長還有能源署的李代理署長還有台電的曾董事長台電曾董事長這次換個題目啊好 部長好 委員好 署長好 董事長好我今天的題目呢是提升離散型光電區匱限覆蓋率受電是受於地面發展虛擬電廠好 我們今天討論的主題是電業法電業法大家都講了 都支持第六條 當時把受電 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9381.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9409.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
供電跟發電都把它拆開來但是我們看到台灣是能源進口國所以我們想要透過市場競爭提高效率讓我們的發電端有效率讓我們的受電端能夠加強管理是不是這樣子 部長那現在這些目標都達成了嘛好 所以我們支持電網修改好 往下看但是現在台電池需要加強的電網韌性像我們台電池的輸配電網雖然是智能壟斷但是相對我覺得後來才到相對是高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9410.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9436.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
因為 部長你也去過這個國家你常常舉這個例子我去過菲律賓 參觀過他的電力公司他的綠電潛力充沛 成本不到10塊錢但是人民終端的售價高達8塊錢 原因出在哪裡電網的效率差所以現在台電呢 我們政府編列預投入呢5645億 強化電網韌性除了設備更新之外 要透過智慧化還有一個電網韌性 災後的附電能力部長 是不是支持 是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9436.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9454.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
是的報告委員這個上面所寫10年內投入5645億已經修改為4年了4年了很好我們繼續支持往下看但是另外一個發電端我們看看現在台灣大概陸上型的光電的大面積的大規模的大概都已經開發差不多了這當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9455.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9484.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
匱限跟生壓站161KV的廠商要自建台電有這樣的要求但是接下來會遇到什麼董事長請你過來小面積的跟離散型的我舉例檳榔廢原轉做成綠電董事長總經理比較清楚了其實在靠近鄉親聚落未來的光電路上開發只剩這些地區但這些地區缺乏22跟11KV的請問總經理未來台電在匱限的分布上這個部分的覆蓋率可不可以提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9486.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9501.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
這個部分就跟委員這張圖上面一樣大面積的部分就走上面那條手法小面積的話就是台電會去處理我們會鼓勵在這方面的工作所以部長剛剛講五千多有四年內喔我們希望部長只是台電這個部分的部分強化可不可以 部長可以喔 部長點頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9503.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9522.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
報告委員可以好那接下來呢請部長要督導台電董總做這件事情電網的韌性我舉例因為我跟董事長一樣都是台電子弟我們很清楚災後的復電能力的第一淹水後的復電程序繁瑣這是第三次講了配電室地下變電淹水之後要抽出積水要清潔要乾燥要檢修才能復電 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9523.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9535.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
很久然後呢又有什麼問題問到什麼問題因為在出在我們台電的用戶配電場所設置及管理辦法第六條本來配電室應該設置在地面 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9535.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9560.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
地面層 但是得設於地下一層這也在建築技術規則的建築設備邊也有同樣的規定一邊是台電經濟部規定的 一邊是內政部規定的好 造成什麼問題 我們往下看現在台電在後面有新增設一個用電配電場所的設置規範准許它只要起照人切結 配電室設計師就會設在地下一樓 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9561.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9589.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
好 部長 問一個比較基本的問題您覺得大樓的連續壁 哪裡最容易漏水考一下 往下看 直接 知道嗎不知道 往下看連續壁啊 就是要設管先要洗凍的地方它要不是沒有補好 就是管太密漏水之後呢 如果是在保固期限內 它就會打針如果過了保期呢 它就置之不理 起造廠不理了喔管毀不修 配電池就會淹水淹水會不會影響供電 影響電網的東西 會嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9590.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9614.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
是好所以這些問題要怎麼解決要修改規則修改哪兩個規則台電的用電規則跟建築技術規範部長你要跟內政部協調督導台電趕快去改好不好好最後一個時間到了智慧化我們都知道有智慧電表才有時間電價有時間電價我們才能用電管理對不對但是同樣的如果配電是設在地下訊號不良智慧電表無所用於擁有之地對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9616.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9641.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以這個規則要不要趕快改我們來修正好 修正好那第二個電動車其實是會移動的儲能裝置現在很多的室內的停車場我們希望有充電樁但是我們希望未來下一個 虛擬電廠下一個希望能夠加上屋頂型的光電受電室設於地面層這些建築官調了之後時電電廈可以做虛擬電廠可以做部長可不可以責任台電趕快進行相關的研發 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9643.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9670.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
是 我們來努力好 所以最後兩個東西就請你承諾請研議離散型光電在鄉村居住地區的匱限覆蓋率提升的方案三個月內提出一個報告 可以嗎可以好 另外呢 也去進行法規的調適讓台電的受電室設於地面 以利於發展虛擬電廠也是這樣 三個月提出一個書面報告 可以嗎好的好 謝謝謝謝主席好 謝謝委員謝謝謝謝鍾嘉斌委員那下一位請黃建豪委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9678.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9680.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
好 謝謝主席 主席我們請經濟部部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9689.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9713.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
部長好 外委才三分鐘 我們把握時間了過去台電提到說 今天修電源法 我們要確認一下過去本來想要說把這個發電 輸配電跟售電拆成三個國營公司到目前為止 過去本來說要延到6到9年後 2026年之前來把它完成但是此時此刻 這個計畫還會繼續進行嗎還是會全部都回歸到我們台電一間公司就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9713.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9740.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
報告委員我們希望修為原來的這個綜合電業就是按照現行就好了嘛不用再切成三家公司了嘛我是要跟部長確認這個事情因為我想切成三家公司啊我這個對很多的這個台電的基層員工的士氣會一定程度的打擊啦所以我們還是希望這個如果部長這樣講的話我想朝野應該是會一定的共識啦這部分我想會有共識啦那我想電業法的修正我想進度會稍微快一點謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9740.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9759.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
好 部長那再來就請教一下部長在上禮拜總質詢的時候部長你回應我一件事情你說這個我們現在推動很多的綠電是因為我們希望我們企業在海外發展的時候有比較好的這個績效跟成本嘛然後我想問一下這個現在綠電的這個成本你希望說是由企業來承擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9760.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9788.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
一般民眾用的比較少上禮拜是這樣講的我不知道我們有理解錯部長的意思我們的這個電基本上是多元來發電那綠電基本上是這樣就是說我們要符合2050年零碳的這樣的一個全球的共識但是綠電這一個命題其實是歐洲的國家他們的一個歐盟的一個規範所以他們都在推動綠電所以我們今天台灣製造業 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9791.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9806.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
賣的東西是全球都有啦那如果他到這個比較符合這個歐盟歐洲國家的規範的話他們都要求要有綠電2030年開始要有百分之百綠電那所以我們必須要供這樣的綠電給這個輸出到歐盟的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9809.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9822.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
如果說今天是這個這個零碳的這個可能是其他的這個部長因為我時間不夠我直接問直接一點啦因為在台電現行的規準裡面有很大的一個部分當然是綠電的這個採購嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9824.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9846.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那我今天要講的問題是說我們假設因為先聽今天這禮拜又要審所謂定價審議委會那後續有體力法院的補貼等等的這個所謂補貼一千一兩千億裡面的補貼有沒有包含說因為採購綠電的外購綠電的價格的虧損所以也需要這樣的補貼不是 報告委員我們在補貼的部分是在補在過去2019年的這個COVID-19因為烏鶴戰爭的影響而導致於我們買的這個發電的這個材料成本上漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9854.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9872.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我們一共在這三四年期間大概漲了六千億我們因為動漲所以我們成本上漲六千億雖然謝謝大院來補助我們大概加起來三千億不過我們還是差三千億所以綠電的部分不是在這裡面嗎不是在這裡面好 部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9873.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9895.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
好 謝謝委員好 謝謝我們黃建豪委員非常精準的使用三分鐘 謝謝等一下我們審法案的時候可以再來發言來 下一位請林思敏委員 林思敏委員 林思敏委員不在請羅明財委員 羅明財委員 羅明財委員不在請徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員不在好 下一位請陳培宇委員發言後影片慢慢來沒關係 我先說 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9900.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9902.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
好 謝謝主席 那有請台電董事長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9911.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9931.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我想問一下 二屋戰爭造成能源價格上漲 世界其他國家到底都如何應對是不是跟台灣一樣也有政府補貼的部分 可不可以請您回答告訴我目前世界各國的趨勢 謝謝我據我所了解 德國 日本 法國的補助金額都超過台幣五千億 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9932.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9959.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
是 那這個數字是去年跟前年也就是說它是近幾年可參考很重要的數字嗎是好 那如果是這樣聽起來那法定委員補充報告就是不只補貼其實他們也漲價喔 又漲價又漲價又補貼又補貼那他們的補貼竟然聽起來其實比台灣高很多是的好 那聽起來呢那我問一下這些補貼電價或者是漲電價的國家是不是也都使用核電核電的占比比我們還高嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9961.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9982.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
日本跟法國確實都使用核電那法國的核電比例非常高好 所以看起來這跟很多人在那邊喊說是錯誤的能源政策有關我認為聽起來沒有關係而是這整個能源價格上漲的問題看起來是全世界的所有國家在追求經濟發展 兼顧民生福利的時候大家共同的難題我可以下這個結論嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9984.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9999.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那個能源價格上漲會造成通膨通膨以後國家的公共支出會更大那其實他們是先漲價通膨以後政府才補貼這個其實造成的惡性循環其實後果是更嚴重跟台灣台灣狀況是台電 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10002.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10002.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
好 聽到你 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10018.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10035.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
剛剛說承擔政策台電我來跟董事長分享一個我目前在服務金門跟連江線那這兩個線我想長期董事長一定清楚他們的發電成本都比較高那也因為發電成本高所以長期以來台電都給予非常大的優惠價格給予相關的撥補跟補助可不可以說一下這個現況 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10037.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10061.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
跟委員報告就因為機組的關係所以他們每一度電帶平均成本都超過10塊錢那委員這個簡報上面已經清楚的呈現就是這兩個離島大概一年一年要補貼30幾億但是我現在身為要服務離島的委員我很擔心不管是陳雪生委員或是陳玉珍委員他們藍白一起砍掉這個相關的預算然後目前又拒絕任何的可能性我想問一下我們離島居民怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10064.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10082.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
你也沒辦法報告委員我們這樣講台電還有一個很基本的任務就是即使財務困難我們也要充分供電這個充分供電並且確保合理的電價讓離島的居民在享受這個便利發電同時跟台灣本島的使用電價是一樣的不然說白了對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10085.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10104.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
所以相關政策困難 我想後續我們再來討論也希望大院支持我們的補貼預算我希望我的藍白同事們支持啦好 謝謝董事長 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳培宇委員那下一位請林德福委員 林德福委員 林德福委員不在下一位請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席 麻煩有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10114.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10128.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
有請部長委員好部長時間的關係直接切入主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10129.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10154.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
我們要發展地熱經濟部之前有委託公司在馬槽地區就是陽明山國家公園管理處去辦地質的專探那去年年底的時候跟社會報告地熱的成果封鎖然後在馬槽地熱探勘警也有去顯看 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10155.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10176.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
但我要跟部長說的是因為最近一段時間我接到在陽明山那邊不管是居民還是旅客他們一直反映來那個部長你看一下照片那這些照片都是當地在那邊的居民或是遊客看不下去他們提供的 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10177.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10205.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
12月16號的時候就發生了井噴噪音的污染12月17號的時候持續的井噴引發噪音我把時間軸大概拉拉到現在最近一次去看的時候這個井噴的現場還是沒有處理從去年12月到現在3月整整三個多月這件事情部長有沒有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10208.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10212.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
這個部分我不是那麼清楚我可不可以請能源署長來跟您 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10216.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10244.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
這口井是我們地礦中心做的實驗井現在我的問題是從12月到3月都沒處理現在是在幹嘛是他現在已經先把這個井封掉了然後後期地礦中心會再跟這個廠商來做處理要怎麼處理他已經先把這個井封掉你現在井封了嗎是你確定嗎是什麼時候封的他現在就在封現在進行是嗎是什麼時候會封完 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10246.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10274.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
呃 我再跟地方中心聯絡一下看他技術問題什麼什麼我先跟經濟部講要攤勘遞熱這件事情大家都不反對但施工施成這個樣子對當地的居民對旅客都造成了相當大的負面衝擊這件事情不是去年才發生2023年4月的時候是不是就有發生過一次是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10275.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10289.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我知道都調出來啦你們2023年4月的時候就放任他已經被亂搞沒有依照計畫執行也沒有依照計畫通報到2024年要發生2023年只有發生過一次嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10293.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10311.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
學長你知不知道這個細節是不是我們請他來我跟你講細節2023年7月再次噴發硫化氫的濃度高達90ppm知不知道濃化氫法定的標準是多少知道嗎10ppm超過了9倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10315.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10335.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
超過了九倍這是2023年發生的事情2023年沒有處理繼續放任在那邊胡搞瞎搞到2024年年底的時候又再度發生搞到現在還沒有整個處理完畢來 請教一下什麼時候可以處理完 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10337.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10359.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我們是不是請地方中心整理一下然後跟委員報告因為這個案是地方中心在執行可以 需要多久我們請地方中心大概一個禮拜內先跟委員這邊做一個說明不用啦 不用說明就順便回覆再給你們一個禮拜的時間因為那邊的居民還有很多旅客大家都受夠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10364.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10392.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那個主席站起來了3月7號決定要封警回復原狀這個是3月11號12號現場沒有工作人員繼續放在那邊那你現在跟我講說是現在進行是正在做嗎一個禮拜之內順便回復可以嗎可以盡速把它處理完喔好 謝謝好 一個禮拜回復回復給那個執行委員跟本會好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10396.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10412.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
好 那我們下一位請葉元之委員質詢主席好 麻煩請經濟部長 謝謝有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10423.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10452.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
委員好部長好就是之前中鋼有配合政策要投資一個翻供股的售電平台台製電這個您知道那當時部長我看到你說台製電它的目標其實是應該要提供小額綠電還有短期綠電需求特別是以中小企業為主否則如果是不然的話中小企業它很難跟大企業去競爭綠電綠電的風場那些應該都比較喜歡賣給大企業利益良善讓中小企業有綠電可以用 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10453.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10469.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那我先問一下第一個那個中鋼現在確定是有出資一千萬嘛然後另外中華電電信還有中油都有投資那本來是說要進行第二階段的募資跟其他民營企業募那現在募的狀況怎麼樣這個目前還在募的這個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10476.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10500.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
你了解狀況是怎樣我了解的狀況應該是因為如果說第二階段資金沒到位的話他可能六月就沒有辦法開始售電嘛報告委員應該民間的企業應該都已經到資了啦都已經到資了所以確定六月可以開始售電也是的好那第二個齁因為我看新聞報導他說開始售電之後第一波的買主還是以大型企業為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10501.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10520.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那如果說行有餘力才會再賣給第二波中小企業那這個部分就跟部長你當初報告委員我想也許這個資料您的手邊的資料可能這個我們這邊有一點差異那沒關係你說我們還是以中小企業為例 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10520.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10538.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
所以第一波還是會以中小企業為主我們還是以不會以大型企業為主的因為新聞報導這些部分因為有一些小的需求台電已經開始這個在賣那個R1-30好再來第三個因為台次電它的電價不知道你知道多少嗎一度大概賣多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10540.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10559.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
這個我不清楚大概六塊多還沒賣啊沒有沒有預計啦大概是六塊多預計的都不清楚大概六塊那他的成本會比較高啦因為他還要把營運成本還有其他疊加上去嘛所以如果他的售電電價是比較貴的話其實對中小企業來說也是一個負擔不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10560.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10586.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
所以他的店價大概是多少台製店如果透過台製店我知道啦但是因為六月就好你是主管機關嘛六月要開始賣了那個他們價格應該在他們的董事會裡面決定的董事會裡面決定我不是董事那如果所以你會盡量不會讓他太貴是不是因為你的目的是要保障這個公司成立的目的是要給中小企業可以買到合理的價格對 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10587.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10605.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
主要是這個樣子因為市場上面很多的綠電公司他直接賣給客戶那小公司他可能不符合他的要件就是說要簽20年固定的量那這個對小公司來講百分之一太大所以我現在只是提醒部長你還是會以專好企業為主第二個電價你們不會賣太貴不會讓專好企業覺得買到太貴一點否則的話成本提高也比較難經營謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10617.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10634.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
好謝謝葉元之委員那我們登記發言委員除不在場者不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束委員林德福所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10637.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10666.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
好我們現在進行審查電業法部分條文第6條及第74條條文修正草案現在進行廣泛討論沒有廣泛討論沒有人登記那我們現在請議事人員宣讀所有條文若有修正動議及附帶決議請一併宣讀宣讀完畢後再行協商宣讀時我們請官員因為早上開到現在都沒有休息那官員可以在宣讀的時候先休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10667.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10668.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
好那請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10669.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10697.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
行政院提案第二條修正第一款電業只依本法核准之發電業、輸配電業、售電業及特定電力供應業第二款至第六款同線型條文第七款莫具修正為並與銷售之非公用事業其餘文字同線型條文第八款特定電力供應業只以執行需量反應措施設置儲能設備或其他電力供應方式參與電力交易平台之非公用事業 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10699.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10706.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
現行條文第八款至第十款一列為第九款至第十一款、第十二款儲能設備指儲存電能並穩定電力系統之設備包含儲能組件 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10711.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10730.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
電力轉換及電能管理系統等現行條文第11款及第12款一列為第13款及第14款現行條文第13款一列為第15款並著作文字修正現行條文第14款至第24款一列為第16款至第26款內容未修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10731.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10758.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
委員邱志維等人提案第二條同行政院提案條文行政院提案第六條刪除現行條文第一項第五項及第六項現行條文第三項一列為第一項第二項修正為疏配電業兼營電業或其他事業應以不影響其業務經營及不妨礙公平競爭並經電業管制機關核准者違憲現行條文第四項一列至第三項內容未修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10759.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10788.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
委員林代化等人提案第6條第一項手續修正為輸配電業兼營發電業售電業及以外之其他事業其餘文字同行政院提案第二項第二項同行政院提案第一項第三項同行政院提案第三項委員楊瓊英等人提案第6條除第一項手續修正為輸配電業兼營發電業售電業及電業以外之其他事業其餘文字同委員林代化等人提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10788.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10815.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
委員邱瑩等人提案第六條同委員楊瓊英等人提案委員邱志偉等人提案第六條同行政院提案條文行政院提案第十一條第一項目據修正為得設立公開透明之電力交易平台其餘文字同線型條文第二項同線型條文第三項電業管制機關因視電力市場之發展情況檢討電力交易平台之運作模式及成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10817.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10840.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
並得設立具獨立性交易單位或要求電力交易平台設置者採取強化中立性運作之相關措施現行條文第三項一列為第四項文字修正為第一項及第三項電力交易平台之成員組織實行交易管理中立性運作措施之內容及其他應遵行事項之規則由電業管制機關定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10844.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10859.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
委員邱志偉等人提案第十一條除第三項目據修正為並得要求電力交易平台設置者採取強化中立性運作這相關措施第四項同線型條文其餘文字同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10860.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10875.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
行政院提案第15條第一項至第4項同線型條文第5項特定電力供應業以設置儲能設備或其他設備之方式進行電力供應者應於設置前向電液管制機關申請同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10876.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10891.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
備案並於完成設置後申請核發電業執照性行條文第五項一列為第六項首具修正為受電業及特定電力供應業應填具申請書其餘文字未修正第七項 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10892.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10910.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
本法中华民国某年某月某日修正之条文施行前已以执行虚量反应措施设置储能设备或其他电力供应方式参与电力交易平台者应于修正施行之日起算一年内取得电液执照借其未取得者不得营业 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10911.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10927.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
委員邱志偉等人提案第十五條第一項至第四項同行政院提案條文第五項同行政院提案條文第六項第六項後段修正為因於修正施行後一年內申請核發電業執照借其未申請或已申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10929.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10949.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
但未取得定業執照者不得參與電力交易平台之交易其餘文字同行政院提案第七項行政院提案第十九條疏配電業及公用受電業不得停業或歇業發電業再生能源受電業及特定電力供應業之停業或歇業應依下列規定辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10951.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10979.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
一 于停业前应检据停业计划向电业管制机关申请核准停业期间不得超过一年二 于歇业前应检据歇业计划向电业管制机关申请核准并于歇业之日起算15日内将电业执照报缴电业管制机关注销借其为报缴者电业管制机关得进行注销委员邱志伟等人提案第19条同行政院提案条文 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10980.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11008.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
行政院提案第24條處於具中工作許可證後增訂同意備案緞號等字其餘文字同現行條文委員邱志偉等人提案第24條同行政院提案條文行政院提案第35條處手續修正為發電業、輸配電業及特定電力供應業發生各類災害緊急事故或有前條所定情形時其餘文字同現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11009.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11029.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
委員邱志偉等人提案第35條同行政院提案行政院提案第47條刪除縣刑條文第一項及第二項縣刑條文第三項及第四項一列至第一項及第二項內容同縣刑條文委員邱志偉等人提案第47條同行政院提案條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11029.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11053.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
行政院提案第74條第一項序文著修文字第一款及第二款同線型條文第三款修正為違反第19條第一項規定停業或歇業或違反第19條第二項規定未經核准擅自停業或歇業第四款制定10款同線型條文刪除線型條文第11款線型條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11054.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11074.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
第十二款 以列為第十一款 守據修正為違反第四十七條第一項規定其餘文字同線型條文線型條文第十三款至第十五款 以列為第十二款至第十四款第二項守據修正為由前項第二款 第七款至第十四款情形之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11075.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11100.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
经电业管制机关处罚其余文字同现行条文委员赖世保等人提案第74条第一项删除现行条文第六款以下款次依序第一文字同现行条文第二项手续修正为有前项第二款第六款至第14款情形之一经电业管制机关处罚其余文字同行政院提案第二项 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11101.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11124.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
電液位依第28條第一項規定符合公告之電力排碳係數基準其罰還裁罰公示如下實際電力排碳係數減公告電力排碳係數乘受電度數乘每公斤碳費等於罰還金額前項碳費之排放量計算方法依據氣候邊遷因應法第28條規定訂定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11126.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11152.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
委員邱志偉等人提案第74條同行政院提案條文委員鄭振琴等人提案第74條除第三項墨具修正為其罰還計算公示如下實際電力排碳係數減公告電力排碳係數乘以受電度數乘每公斤碳費等於裁罰金額其餘文字同委員賴士寶等人提案第74條 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11153.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11176.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
行政院提案第75條序文左語修正第二款修正為違反第6條第一項規定未建立分別計算盈虧之會計制度或進行交叉補貼第二項規定未經核准而經營電業或其他事業或違反第三項所定準則中有關會計分離制度會計處理之方法程序與原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11177.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11196.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
或会计监督及管理之规定且情节重大其余文字同现行条文委员邱志伟等人第75条除第二款修正为违反第6条第一项规定未建立分别计算盈亏之会计制度或交叉补贴第二项规定未经核准 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11197.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11222.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
而兼營其他事業其餘通現行條文行政院提案第78條之一電力交易平台設置者為依電業管制機關依第11條第3項規定之要求採取強化中立性運作之相關措施電業管制機關應通知其限期改善借其為改善者處心台幣50萬元以上500萬元以下罰還並按次處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11226.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11246.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
行政院提案第八十條第一項手續修正為發電業輸配電業及特定電力供應業未依第35條規定通報墨具修正為按次處罰第二項墨具修正為按次處罰其餘文字同現行條文委員邱志偉等人提案第八十條同行政院提案條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11247.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11265.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
委員張祺凱本人所提修正動議第11條中央主管機關應於115年12月31日前協助統籌並設立獨立之電力交易所電力交易所之成員組織實行交易管理及其他應遵行事項之規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11266.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11293.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
及相關規定與制度應另訂法令辦理電力交易所之設立是以建立公開、透明、公平、合理、市場效率之電力交易機制為目標媒合國內電力供需為目的並應整合既有電力交易平台之業務納入包括再生能源電能交易、蓄量反應及囤購機制等既有之電力交易及調度措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11294.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11321.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
除因合約履約期間外台灣電力股份有限公司配合中央主管機關辦理前項短購需量反映再生能源電能交易等由原電力交易平台經營之業務因與電力交易所成立時已並終止相關合約到期後亦不得再續約並與電力交易所辦理相關電力交易事宜電力交易所成立後所生之 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11322.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11348.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
交易爭議應由電業管制機關進行爭議調處第47條第1項至第4項同線型條文第5項修正為公用受電業應推出保證一定比例來自再生能源發電之銷售方案或一定比例來自於低碳發電之低碳電力銷售方案宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11351.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11380.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
好 那已經宣讀完畢那我們現在要開始協商協商前主席宣告本會陳情非委員等17人提案電業法部分條文修正草案業經院會第三會第二次會議交付本會其內容與除第52條條文之外其餘條文與行政院版本相同以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11381.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11396.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
另外新增徐欣盈委員的書面質詢來我們現在進行協商那我們現在先進行電業法第二條的條文來請問第二條的條文是不是行政院可以說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11401.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11420.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
第二條的條文主要是增加在名詞定義裡面增加了一個特定電力供應業那也就是說我們現在實質上對於電力的供應過去傳統的電業法大概只有定義發電機這種東西那但是我們未來真正在實行的時候比如說我們有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11422.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11447.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
電池儲能設備那目前是沒有在法令規範裡面那另外一方面現在我們實際有在運作的像台電公司一個蓄量反應的制度那麼目前實際有在運作但是在法裡面也沒有法律的基礎那我們覺得這個目前實質參與市場運作的都應該納入電業法那麼納入電業法之後才能建立相關的管理制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11447.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11458.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
以上報告 建議照行政院版通過啦好 那如果沒有其他異議的話 就照行政院版本通過來處理第六條 那第六條是不是也請能源局說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11459.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11474.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
第六條是剛才各位委員討論很多的就是要維持台電原來的綜合電業的型態那所以我們在法令裡面做一個調整原來我們有把輸配電業跟發電業這些東西來做分開那剛才因為我們過去在 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11478.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11504.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
原來訂電業法的時候那麼時候是2017年那時候大概我們綠能也少那全世界的趨勢也是要走向自由化但是這幾年變化之後世界的趨勢已經慢慢走向要加強電力的管理機構的功能那另外一方面我們的綠能推動那麼最近也已經增加了很多那事實上在整個電力系統裡面也需要有一個穩定支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11506.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11513.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
所以我們建議我們在第六條的部分來做一個調整能夠維持台電公司綜合電業的定位 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11527.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11549.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
好那我們現在這一條就先照院版通過好那我們現在處理第11條第11條是有關為了建立電力市場公平的調度機制那我們這裡面特別來規定這個未來的電力調度要基於公平公正的原則那必要的時候可以設立一個公開透明的交易平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11550.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11569.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
也就是說 目前由台電公司來進行 但是未來如果越來越蓬勃的時候那我們是得設立一個獨立的交易平台沒有意見 照願板啦好 這剛剛有說任東益都有宣讀了齁 那大家意見是照願板來通過好 那第15條 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11572.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11590.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
第15條是有關剛才台電的電力供應業它的這些經營要特定的電力供應業它如果要成立的時候它相關的程序 把令程序那另外也就是說至於現在已經在經營的未來必須在一年內取得相關的執照 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11592.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11617.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
好那這條文建議照院版通過沒有意見好那本條也是照院版的條文通過來第19條請能源局說明是另外第19條是剛才的所謂的電力供應業他有停歇業的規定那也比照其他相關的電業來一起處理建議照院版通過好沒有其他意見的話照院版通過第24條請能源局說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11621.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11645.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
這個就是配合剛才的特定電力業 那我們增加同意備案因為它有一個同意備案的程序 我們把它納入程序好 建議照院板通過好 那也是照院板通過那接下來處理第三條35條也是對新設的特定電力工業 它有一些災害緊急通報的系統那我們也把它納入原來的通報系統好 建議照院板通過好 照院板通過第47條 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11648.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11663.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
第47條就是說這些公用受電業或是剛才的特定供應業這些它也要依照我們電業目前既有的機制定期的提供資料那麼跟申報那它非有特殊的原因是不能夠進行停業的好 建議照預滿通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11665.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11689.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
好47條有修正動議不過大家討論如果同意的話我們還是照院板通過好那47條就照院板來處理第74條74條就是剛才新加入的行業他的罰則他配套的罰則我們也在74條裡面把它訂定出來好法則的部份好那也照院板通過來接下來處理第75條75條在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11697.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11721.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
75條75條就是說未來我們這個電業他雖然維持綜合電業但是他還是要有分別的會計制度而且他不能夠做交叉補貼以維持電力市場的公平競爭好那這一條也照院版通過那現在有行政院的新增第78條之一那這也請原局說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11723.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11748.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
這個是我們未來要建立這個電易交易平台那麼這個電易交易平台他必須要能夠公正的操作那如果沒有公正的操作那我們會出以罰款的罰則好那這一條新增條文大家有什麼意見好沒有其他意見的話我們照院板通過好那接下來處理第80條 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11752.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11769.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
80條是新增一個特定供應業因為為剛才報告這是一個新增的行業所以我們特別在81條也把原來80條這部分也把它加進來就是除了發電業配電業我們增加一個特定電力供應業 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11771.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11788.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
好 各位委員有什麼意見好 一樣照院版通過這個邱志偉委員的版本是跟院版是一樣好 兩位的好 那就照這個行政院跟邱志偉委員版本第六條的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11789.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11809.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
好 這個委員的版本跟院版的意旨是一樣意旨一樣啦 不過文字上有不一樣所以我們還是照院版那林黛華委員跟邱盈盈委員的意旨是一樣的但是可能在一些用字用語有不懂對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11811.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11830.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
意思一樣啦 但是文字還是有不一樣的地方邱志偉委員的文字跟行政院版是一樣的建議主席啊 如果文字一樣就照著委員跟院版的通過啦文字一樣的不一樣的就照院版好不好文字有不同就照院版那各位委員有其他意見嗎沒有來戴華 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11831.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11852.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
做一個附帶決議就是我今天質詢的部分我也謝謝部長願意正面回應針對每一個在生人員的電廠它都是公權力的賦予所以他們在相關的資料的收集跟電力發電的效益 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11853.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11874.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
這件事情是要長期定期 正是每日每時透過AI的系統去做會診因為它需要做到跨部會 因為像日照 風向 地震 颱風這可能可以來自環境部 但是對於電力當中的影響會是你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11876.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11882.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
那甚至我也講到說地方政府他在漁業對於原生產業的衝擊譬如說我做漁電共生我做這個農電共生那到底對我農業的產地的攻擊的衝擊是什麼那其實這是要做追蹤的 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11892.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11913.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
才有利於你在整個人員政策當中的五年十年當中你可以做一些調整甚至未來在20年25年這個場域包括你未來還會有地熱喔不是有風電離岸還有你的地熱這都是國家公權力裡面去處理的那這個他們的一個這樣的一個跟電力跟這個我們相關的氣候還有天災等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11917.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11942.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
一個關係還有包括跟地方政府他為什麼有些農地甚至私人的農地我們不講私人我們就講公有的部分我怎麼的去回饋給你們這些資料包括養殖業的部分我對於原生產地的部分農業土地的衝擊對於這個漁業漁電共生的部分我怎麼的他有哪些環境的衝擊可以回饋給你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11943.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11968.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
那我再講一個小細節的比例如果我這樣的一個光電板我只要一片樹葉蓋在一片的光電板我可能能量在這整個系統的電力我就少了20%那我會牽扯到什麼我清潔的頻率以後我是要規格化以後我的這個綠電的當中我光是這樣的作業我如何只要沒有那一片葉子弄下去我的發電百分百一片葉子下去可能就 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11969.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11986.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
就只剩下20%那所以這個東西要不要去建立我的一個這個操作清潔的模式包括給每個電廠的維護所以這個部分我是希望做一個附帶決議那會講這個東西未來我的電力公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11987.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12008.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我要不要也納入我的這個規劃裡面因為你們連非公用的電力你們台電都要求台電變成一個整合平台了那對這樣的一個資料的中心的彙整我是不是要賦予不管是你經濟部能源連署他也應該要法制化 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12008.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12023.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
這樣子也保障你們啊 因為你才有整合的權利啊他們要義務提供給你這個訊息而且你要怎麼的產出這個有價值的數據所以我這個部分能夠希望用文字以附帶決議請人員署這邊提供我剛才講的一個文字這個能夠提供作為今天的附帶決議那評估作為 因為我今天也講示範 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12031.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12059.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
事辦就是說由台電先行事辦它有光電廠還有離岸風廠甚至未來的地熱也是會是它要去做相關電力的一個匱電那這當中你怎麼讓它有一個數據的整合之後在你督導之下有一個數據整合之後那能夠來回饋我們未來的相關能源政策以因應未來20年或25年的到期之後你要做什麼樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12059.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12077.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
一個重新的一個發包類似這樣子那做成請經濟部知情主席能夠採視一下讓人員署做成一個文字把我剛才的一個意旨做成附帶決議那至於未來要不要評估在我們事辦之後未來評估是納入定業法裡面去處理謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12080.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12098.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
那我想針對這個戴華委員他們希望說你們要把一些發電的背景因素你們要做一個研究那我想這個是不是你們是不是朝你一下換文字怎樣那我們還是先回到我們這個處理條文本身來我們先剛剛都已經協商完畢了我們請宣讀協商結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12103.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12129.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
定義法不貫條件修正條案先讀協商結論第二條照行政院提案通過第六條照行政院提案通過第十一條照行政院提案通過第十五條照行政院提案通過第十九條照行政院提案通過第十四條照行政院提案通過第三十五條照行政院提案通過第四十七條照行政院提案通過第七十四條照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12130.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12154.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
第75條 照行政院提案通過增訂第78條之一 照行政院提案通過第80條 照行政院提案通過 宣布完畢好 請問各位同仁照剛剛宣讀之協商結論通過 請問有無異議沒有好 沒有異議通過那我們附帶決議是不是寫一下好 那大家先 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12181.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12184.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
我七年來在經紀人會第一次這麼順利 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12195.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12199.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
蔬菜白肉鍋 台店的招待生菜白肉鍋 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12212.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12220.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
好啊好啊 好啊好啊 好啊好啊 好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12235.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12238.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
下禮拜一可能,下禮拜一可能可以有 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12247.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12257.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
那個金銀會所有各公所的金銀保祕跟我們那些議員他們會設攤怎麼樣處理一下3月29日就已經有三上了他們說我們的帳篷過去放還是怎麼樣跟我們說的議員聯絡一下放的水怎麼弄 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12291.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12314.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12325.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12334.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
主席再宣告一下因為我們現在時間快要接近12點所以我們中午不休息延長開會時間但是不會延長太久大家放心 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12368.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12370.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
嗯嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12383.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12384.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
好了嗎?等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12423.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12426.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
可以在電視上呈現可以嗎這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12452.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12464.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
放麥玻璃 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12475.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12487.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
命中兩個小時前強命中現在最早的是兩個小時前新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12503.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12511.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
好 好 好啊還需要簽嗎要簽的 要 要 要不然你這樣硬一張 大家簽不就好了啊對 硬一張不會只是給委員看 想看而已好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12545.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12549.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
好那我們現在附帶決議有一件請宣讀附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12553.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12580.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
委員蔡宇等所提附帶決議為掌握再生能源發電效益請能源署評估建立再生能源場域各級數據監理機制並規劃台電場域先行事辦以利後續推動要求致民營電廠宣讀完畢請問各位同仁對於委員所提附帶決議有異議好沒有異議的話就通過那我們只通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12581.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12595.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
好那我們討論事項所列電業法部分條文第6條及第74條條文修正草案並按審查完略拟據審查報告提報院會討論請問需不需要交由黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12597.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12611.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
好 那不需交黨團協商那院會討論時由本席負責說明通過之條文法制相關法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理本日議程處理完略謝謝大家 現在散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12684.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12685.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
谢谢观看 |