| IVOD_ID |
165322 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165322 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-12T12:37:11+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-12T12:57:42+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:31 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a35f0de19abcdbe343a42bebb4373cb2b62a46119727b9b985b487800f2765301257d1c12132fb9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林淑芬 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:37:11 - 12:57:42 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
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好 謝謝主席 是不是要請我們洪部長有請洪部長蘇分委員好 |
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部長在政策上面最近拋出了一個小孩的家庭也可以聘外籍家庭幫傭行政院在研議就是說只要現行的家庭幫傭每個月5000元的就業安定費提高到8000元就可以以價值量大概朝著這個方向去開放 |
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| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
46.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
你覺得勞動部在行政院的指示之下你會這樣子做嗎我想我們都是綜合的在評估中 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
47.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
73.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
綜合式評估在這裡我讓我提醒你幾個問題婦女薪資還有勞政發布的新聞稿反對他們認為放寬聘僱家庭幫傭這樣的人力市場只能加惠少數富貴人家凸顯社會不公平的現象會使現行公共托育服務倒退回家庭化過度市場化的模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
74.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
97.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
好 我就我剛才講行政院指示的就業安定費用從五千提高到八千可以以價質量這一句話來講這一句話顯然以價質量就不是每個人可以負擔得起的嘛就不是要讓每個人負擔得起嘛就是為了某個經濟能力以上的人在開這一個方便門的嘛不是嗎 這一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
102.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
131.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
就業安定費要繳八千喔因為剛剛委員在講到一些民間團體的聲音我們其實也有聽到也有看到所以現在就是各種不同的聲音因為的確有人講到他的需求然後各種不同的聲音但就綜合在屏幕那有人是誰啊現在行政院講的是一個月就業安定費八千以價值量他就不是要讓大家來用的嘛以價值量就是要限縮在用得起的人才能用嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
132.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
152.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
你覺得這樣的政策會是一個好的政策嗎你的政策目標鎖定的是有消費能力有經濟能力高的那一些婦女嗎那我現在就再跟你提醒第二件事當全世界所有的國家都在對公共政策就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
153.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
177.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
解決少子化幫女性幫年輕人的家庭解決托育的問題的時候都是往國家幫忙養的方向不是嗎我們也是如此號稱啊但是當我們也跟著全世界潮流再往國家幫忙養的方向的時候怎麼會突然轉彎變成孩子自己找外擁帶自己養 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
181.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
197.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
你覺得這樣的轉彎適合嗎那我再提醒你第三件事移工政策的最核心是什麼移工政策的最核心是它只能是補充原則絕對不能夠產生替代你們說你們要做政策評估你心裡面也有數這個東西會不會搶走了國內從業人員的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
210.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
220.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
大家都知道即便是補充原則他也會產生另一種效果對國內的員工衝擊很大是什麼這30年來你知道的部長是什麼即便是補充原則對國內的勞工還是產生很大的衝擊是什麼勞動條件上面勞動條件簡單來講薪資的滑坡薪資的滑坡 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
239.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
258.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
低薪化本來我們是有國內的就業人員如果你政策適當你不是補充你搶走了國內不管是家庭幫傭的家事服務的國內居家托育的或是保姆在宅這個托育的 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
259.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
282.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
或是幼兒園的 幼兒園的生意也都一樣啊本來是這樣的 而且每個保姆每一個人都要有合格的證照要上過課 要訓練當國內的托育是這樣子專業化在前進的時候你們外籍移工的開放有可能要證照嗎會跟保姆一樣要證照嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
287.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
303.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
委員這真的是在總體的評估之中欸啊 抽屜裡面喔總體的評估之中總體的評估 你先就我問就教於你的你提一下你個人的看法 回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
305.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
314.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
任何外國人力的開放與否的政策當然都要...那我先問你一句話啦提供家事勞動服務的還有保母的 顧小孩的還有幼兒園從業的你覺得這個產業 這一些產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
324.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
345.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
服務業支援服務業從業人員有多少在家庭幫傭家事勞動托兒育兒這個領域總的加起來的總就業人口數是多少你告訴我清潔人員保姆家事服務家事勞動有多少人有多少就業人口 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
347.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
372.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
家事服務大概是數千到萬吧你有沒有聽到家事服務數千到一萬家事服務 家事服務的部分家事服務保姆餒對 保姆不是家事服務我現在問你重的啊重的我可能要另外再講家庭幫傭他要來取代誰的工作啊難道不是保姆嗎不是家事服務嗎家事勞動家庭幫傭啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
374.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
398.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
然後小孩就從公共領域公共托育回到家庭但沒有衝擊到幼兒園沒有衝擊到托兒那個保母的這個托兒產業嗎衝擊多大我先問你是從業人員有多少目前詳細的數字我可能手邊沒有好我現在告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
399.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
419.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
保姆清潔人員等其他服務業還有所謂的資源服務業從這一些來看家庭幫傭所替代掉的從業的女性比例這一些從業女性大概佔整體女性的從業人口的有人推估是7.7%所以推估起來總的 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
422.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
439.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
女性就業人數是510萬以7.7%去推估從業人員有三四十萬三四十萬保母家庭幫傭清潔人員還有這個公共托育托兒這一些總的加起來幾十萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
441.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
469.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
你可能會說我可能人家這樣講法是高推估那也不管兩萬也很多三萬保姆三萬也很多人家剛才就是這樣在質疑你當初開放這個長照的外傭外籍移工不是也是這樣推估嗎那我現在也是這樣推估給你看嘛所以在這樣子裡面會受到這幾十萬的人的就業會受到多大的衝擊我現在還在講喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
471.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
495.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
沒有這個政策以前 你們還沒有開放嘛現在評估嘛 沒有開放以前很多職業婦女仰賴就是她二度就業就去當終點費的清潔或是到府服務的保姆他們去取得證照所以這是從業人員都是中高齡的台灣婦女然後如果你們把這個門檻鬆綁以後呢大家都去請外籍幫佣的話這個會失業的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
498.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
518.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
再來我剛剛講孩子留在家裡面衝擊的也是幼兒園托兒所托嬰中心也是女性衝擊的也是女性再來我剛剛講的從業人員要證照你現在把他外籍化了他連語言能力都不一定好你顯然你們覺得看顧孩子就是吃喝拉撒睡 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
519.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
545.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
整個國家在整個公共托育還有這個保母上照顧幼兒上我們都專業化的往證照制度在推結果國家在前進的時候你們如果政策轉彎專業化 證照化在轉彎那你們就是認為說啊這個幼兒只需要照顧他嬰兒吃喝拉撒睡幼兒看顧他不要跌倒不要有危險這樣子而已嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
548.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
554.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
語言文化上的隔閡也不重要然後再來呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
556.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
582.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們在講說這個經濟能力誰可以可以負擔經濟能力誰可以負擔你們以價質量你們已經宣稱了這不是給一般婦女用的光沒有聘僱的成本你就要先繳8000元的就業安定基金那再加上聘僱的我現在在講外籍移工不是源源不絕你還要產業界在搶 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
585.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
600.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
還有跟這個長照看護的在搶移工的價格是不便宜的不便宜的再加上你的就業安定基金 一個月不是3萬 4萬啦 最少5萬但是呢什麼人負擔不去 每個月5萬 8萬 什麼人負擔不去保證什麼人負擔不去 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
613.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
635.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
金字塔頂端的家庭一個月可以花八萬金字塔頂端哪有一個國家的誘餌開放家庭幫傭 你是服務你的國家政策是服務有錢人而已這樣的政策是最好的政策嗎還直接說我要以價值量 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
637.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
665.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你們要 你們瓦解了這個公共托育的政策大家都大肚子餓 去請一個人來顧公共托育瓦解誰受災受災的當然是那個經濟能力負擔不起不要以為你們不會衝擊到產業衝擊到婦女 中高齡婦女的就業你們還衝擊到產業而你們還說你們在評估 我覺得你們就是要 因為這麼多年來一直都是要啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
667.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
679.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
再來我再教你部長你覺得一個個人僱主個人聘僱一個家事個人聘僱的家事幫傭或是其實外籍移工看護的也一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
680.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
703.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
作為一個個人僱主他真的有能力把勞動條件給看守好嗎更不要講他的勞動環境你可以給人家一個單獨的獨立的然後勞動條件你的勞動條件要怎麼定難道要放任跟看護長照一樣嗎24小時全年無休給那麼一點點的加班費就買斷了他 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
705.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
733.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
當成21世紀把他當成現代奴隸一樣的驅使嗎你們如果去你們對他的勞動條件要怎麼把關你有辦法把關在私領域在私宅裡面有辦法把關嗎勞動條件你要怎麼設定你沒有辦法設定要再一次的步入我們長照長照看護的外籍移工的那種處境嗎你的想像是什麼你就這一點你來談談看 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
738.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
762.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這個相關的政策的確各方有不太一樣的意見然後不太一樣的需求所以我們現在針對這些不同的各方少數的各方啦少數你要忘了講兩個字然後我們針對這些各方的需求就是在做評估跟各種可能效應等等的評估目前的情況就是這樣從長照看護裡面我們已經看到很多了就是說大家玩家衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
764.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
785.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
脅迫雇主 逼迫雇主說你非得同意我轉換雇主不可那我現在在問你說 家庭幫傭也一樣啊是不是可能成為移工轉換行業的跳板有沒有可能 管理上的漏洞啊有沒有可能 阿洗澡這要再算什麼 要再換駕 要再炒 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
787.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
815.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
大家都覺得這是外籍移工的問題 可是事實上是嗎你如果沒有訂出好的勞動條件然後人家產業產業上虛空集啊然後在那裡人家用好的薪資而且固定的工時而且要符合勞基法的規定人家就挖走了啊然後流動性也會跟著跳啊跟搶 流動性高啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
816.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
826.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
不是嗎 柏中 你都不敢說 你一句話就不敢說你都不敢說 你都知道啦 心知肚明可是呢 你們會不會還是要繼續要這樣做我曉得我問你這樣好了 我這樣做好了第一個你說要做評估 請問你們產業衝擊評估有沒有做了 委託了沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
841.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
868.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
就是各方面我們都在評估你誰評估啊 你要專業去評估還是你們自己評估 怎麼評估有些部分我們會跟衛福部討論第二個 有沒有做過性別平等評估有沒有做出符合兒童最佳利益的評估你難道不需要嗎你這樣子交給外籍移工來吃拉撒碎的顧小孩跟我們朝向證照制度專業化的顧小孩 保姆都要證照 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
869.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
893.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
你這樣子沒有損及兒童最佳利益嗎你在性別上面對我們二度就業的婦女就業難道沒有衝擊嗎你們在性平上產業衝擊上要怎麼評估你說你們評估你們怎麼評估不是都要說我要做評估我要做評估五個字不是你們要請誰做要怎麼做要做哪些評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
901.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
924.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
現在就是綜合在評估中你不敢講你也回答不出來連說你們有沒有做這一些評估好那我問你你認不認為需要做兒童最佳福利的這個評估你認不認為應該要做是不是符合兒童最佳福利啊要不要做這種評估我覺得各個層面都必須考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
925.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
933.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
好 你繼續打高空 你講不出來好 沒關係 我知道因為真的是回答不出來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
936.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
963.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我也是傻眼啦那我問你別的問題好了現在呢旅遊業開放中階移工那以薪資門檻三萬二要求要有華語能力技能資格啊大家知道旅宿業這個不是地帶啦這補充啦因為沒人要走嘛但是最怕衝擊的就是薪資衝擊嘛但是在這種狀況裡面我要問你我也時間有限我只問你一件事情啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
963.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
968.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
你知道旅宿業大家流行一句話 整本店都要倒了啦都要倒了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
972.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
993.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
你在審核他缺工的相關資訊的時候要不要審核他的營運狀況那特別是大家都知道台灣旅宿業的環境不好經營不善如果倒閉了這個移工被迫要失業然後這些失業因為關閉倒閉的移工你的管理配套是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
994.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1005.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
跟委員說明第一個我們目前其實目前開放的比較是在這個觀光旅館跟飯店旅館對啊那這個觀光旅館跟飯店現在倒閉潮很多嗎倒閉潮當然這個企業的狀況我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1013.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1028.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
目前他有這個缺工的需求包括我們在我們自己的調查你也看出他有這個這個缺工尤其是比較基層的工作的缺工的需求是有的所以我說補充原則不是替代啊是台灣人不要做嘛所以補充啊沒關係啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1028.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1057.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
但我現在在說的是倒閉潮倒閉潮可是你申請了一大堆外籍移工進來這個旅館這個飯店倒閉以後這些移工的安置的配套未來的管理配套是什麼你總不能叫他在那裡漫長的等待吧當然如果這個企業遇到了比方說經營不善的狀況無法再經營下去那當然這個移工就變成是我們要來協助全力協助他轉換 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1058.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1081.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
就慢慢的等待這樣子嗎其實不是慢慢等待因為接下來其實我們也把現在在技術能力的需求給打開了所以我們認為對於轉換也會比較有利所以你叫下游去幫他擦屁股那你為什麼不再上游你需不需要在他申請的時候要對於他的營運狀況也要一併考量從上游源頭管理嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1082.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1112.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
不用嗎然後大家進來然後一直管理不善的營運不善的也申請了可是做沒幾個月就倒了你還要幫他處理跟委員說明第一個當然這部分這個飯店業他的管理或他的經營這部分可能很難是勞動部這邊來去說我要對你設一個我現在講是他要申請外籍移工你在審查的時候要不要框一個要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1114.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1128.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我不知道這是不是一定要啦但是我想到的是倒閉的時候要怎麼處理就算要檢視的話我們可能要跟交通部一起討論那我再問你如果這個倒閉非自願性失業的移工那他會不會適用這個那個失業給付失業給付目前是沒有的因為失業給付主要是來自救保 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1141.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1168.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
所以我才講作為一個個人雇主是不是有能力cover起來他其實連勞動條件都很難去cover起來所以個人雇主我們一直在主張個人雇主的這一個制度要不要落日作為外籍移工的雇主從長照到現在你要再開放我們都一直在討論說要不要落日結果你們一直在討論要不要再開更多的門 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1168.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1193.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那個人聘僱外籍移工的僱主他的能力就是這麼的有限他就是在勞動條件上沒有辦法去支撐然後呢你如果再叫他講說如果失業在那裡漫長等待對人家如果一般勞工也是不公平的啊那在這種狀況裡面你叫他救保費用你也繼續繳幫這些移工也繳那是不可能的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1194.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1207.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
對不對 我問你啦 廠工有沒有繳救保沒有廠工的老闆也沒有因為廠工不會 他們就三年一聘不會突然倒了嘛廠工沒有算 因為他補充人力 所以他沒有算在救保裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1207.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1227.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
對啊少數嘛就是基本上還算穩定的嘛但是飯店旅宿可能那不穩性定很高你要去想一想啦稍微要想一下好 重點是剛才在講的只為少數人服務的那一個開放那個門要好好的想啦 謝謝好 謝謝 |