| IVOD_ID |
165312 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165312 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-12T11:59:06+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-12T12:19:39+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:33 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a35f0de19abcdbe3610e00eae30db8e657c737e12387eef8cc7208a858208f5c057babbb10d0fc445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林淑芬 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:59:06 - 12:19:39 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查
（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「少年事件處理法部分條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「少年事件處理法第七十四條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「少年事件處理法部分條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員林月琴等24人擬具「少年事件處理法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「少年事件處理法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。
（六）委員沈發惠等16人擬具「少年事件處理法部分條文修正草案」案。
（七）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「少年事件處理法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。
【僅進行詢答】
【11月12日及13日兩天一次會】） |
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謝謝主席 是不是請我們副秘書長請王副秘 委員好副秘書長 在我國的法律施行細則哪一部法律的施行細則條文最多 你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
32.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
44.037 |
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這個我倒沒有研究沒有研究那我是看到這個國民法官法的施行細則很多條你知道多少條嗎幾百條 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
47.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
63.884 |
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對 比他的母法還要多三倍341條那這麼多條裡面所以你印象所及有哪一部法律的施行細則是超過300條的 比他多的印象中沒有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
66.005 |
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89.983 |
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人家都說這個法律多牛如毛嘛那一個國民法官法的施行細則有341條那想必當初你們司法院認為是有需要才會定出這麼耗煩的施行細則嘛不過這個施行細則我要請問你大家都知道施行細則的法律位階是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
91.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
110.693 |
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次於法律次於法律OK那請問你在這個法律的位階裡面施行細則裡面可以不可以自己寫著說我要排除某一個法律的適用可不可以說我不受某個法律的管制施行細則裡面可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
114.503 |
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134.351 |
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這個是就是基本法理就是基本法理那我剛剛講的細則當然不能違背法律啊但細則裡面定出來的文字寫我排除某條法律的適用因為詳細的那個情形我不知道OK沒關係我現在很具體的告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
136.452 |
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153.998 |
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國民法官法施行細則341條的條文當中其中有一條施行細則第289之1條第一項規定本法第88條就母法國民法官法第88條所稱得盡記載證據名稱及對重要爭點判斷的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
162.08 |
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173.645 |
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下列事項並不受刑事訴訟法第310條第一款第二款規定的限制你們自己去補充你們母法 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
179.142 |
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193.01 |
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是 你知道 私刑記者這樣寫私刑記者說 我不受刑事訴訟法第310條第一款第二款規定的限制 你覺得這樣子妥當嗎那個報委員齁 因為在那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
194.551 |
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211.857 |
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我這樣說好了先從結論上來看就是這個施行細則他跟他的那個母法國民法官法他是沒有違背的那國民法官他的制度當時還設計的時候呢他確實有跟我們傳統的這個刑事程序他做了很多這個我當然知道但我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
212.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
222.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
他們的母法國民法官法第88條條文只有這樣子喔有罪的判決書有關認定犯罪事實的理由得緊記載證據名稱及對重要爭點判斷的理由那請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
228.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
240.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
母法第88條有說我要排除刑事訴訟法第310條第一款第二款嗎因為310條如果我沒記錯OK你認為310條跟母法第88條會有漢格嗎他確實做了一個不太一樣的設計對不一樣的設計但是即便如此你如果認為應該要排除刑事訴訟法第這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
258.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
282.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
310條的適用你也應該要修法而且應該要定在國民法官法的法條裡面怎麼可能沒有定好法律沒有制定好你們就便以形式然後你們再一個法規的未接的施行細則你們說我要排除這個的適用我知道你們本意是什麼但是你們便以形式你們在破壞法律的架構 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
283.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
310.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以呢你要在施行細則當中說不受刑事訴訟法的限制那你應該要在國民法官法裡面修法不是嗎那個謝謝委員指教因為我想這是不同的解讀因為就是說國民法官他因為就是不要這樣講副秘書長這不是解讀我在講法律上嚴肅的問題你的施行細則要來自於母法的授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
311.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
339.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
你要排除其他法律的適用要法律保留原則而你的母法裡面沒有要直接寫排除雖然你們整部法律的適用的設計其實是要排除或者是要部分不一樣但你應該在母法裡面設計啊報告委員因為88條它的那個規定呢它事實上就已經是和刑事訴訟法310條做了一個不同的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
339.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
359.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那你當初在母法你就要最後一項要講我要排除刑事訴訟法第310條第一款第二款的這個適用你要在母法裡面怎麼會是在一個施行細則裡面你們顯然看到了有問題所以才在施行細則裡面要加這一句話嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
360.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
370.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
因為這個國民法官法88條他就是特別規定有關於國民法官有罪判決要怎麼寫判決書怎麼寫怎麼記載如果沒有特別的規定當然是刑事訴訟法裡面的規定啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
378.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
403.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
但你國民法官法要特別的規定你應該在母法裡面規定哪有母法沒有規定然後你在施行棄責說我要排除刑事訴訟法所以我說這是便宜刑事啊我不是反對喔是你們便宜刑事你覺得這樣的法律架構可以嗎你剛剛一開頭我就問你說他的法律位階是什麼他可以在一個這麼比法律位階還要低的地方說我要排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
403.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
422.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
刑事訴訟法的適用嗎因為剛剛那個施行細則他的依據是從國民法官法88條下來的沒有直接說我排除刑事訴訟法的適用但是從他的文藝的規定裡面就已經排除了刑訴310條啦他就已經排除 因為不一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
423.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
449.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
如果不一樣 那你的施行棄責改掉如果舊母法就足夠有法源的話你把你的施行棄責排除什麼法律的字眼拿掉確實施行棄責不寫那一句話結論上還是一樣的那寫了架構不一樣喔現在我的意思是說你們明年1月1號開始要針對最輕本刑10年以上所有有期徒刑都要適用國民法官法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
450.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
471.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
你現在要好好去檢討你所有的施行細則300多條哪些你是排除刑事訴訟法的規定的你的母法裡面沒有約束好的沒有法律保留原則的而你通通都直接就在便宜刑事在施行細則裡面訂好的你難道不用整部法律再拿出來看一下嗎譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
473.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
493.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
比如說國民法官法第六條第一項規定應該行國民法官審判的案件有幾種例外可以由法院裁定不適用國民法官法其中第四款被告就背訴的事實為有罪的陳述被告都認罪了然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
493.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
519.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
然後經審判長告知被告通常審判程序之指且依案件情節認不行國民參與審判為適當所以這一條講得很清楚如果被告認罪了那後半段是說依案件情節認不行國民法官審判為適當你可不可以舉幾個例子告訴我們後半段指涉的法律的意旨是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
521.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
538.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
而認為說該案情節這個不適合這個行國運參與審判那這個標準除了第六條第一項的前幾款以外還有什麼這個我是不是請那個法官來那個回覆好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
541.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
557.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
報告委員那這部分是國民法官法的第六條第一項的規定我知道那告以通常審判程序之指那就是說告知他說通常審判程序的那個進行內容跟他的權利事項我知道對那案件情節我是叫你舉個例子可以告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
558.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
571.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
好 舉個例子告訴我們第一個被告都認罪了第二個你也告知他這個程序了通常審判的程序了那依案件情節認為不行參與國民審判國民法官審判為 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
574.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
597.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
為適當 你舉個例子給我通常就涉及到良心的部分如果良心的部分有涉及到例如說需要國民法官意見參與的部分比較多要反映國民法官感情的時候這時候可能就不適宜轉換所以這個真點就是剩下良心的部分那在良心上面認為有可能會傷及國民情感的你舉個例子給我聽就涉及到例如說特別侵害到所謂的個人人身法益的那個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
599.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
620.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
如果有涉及到這個部分的話具體的例子高度社會矚目不見得是社會矚目可能是身體法醫的侵害這個部分最高本刑十年以上啊當然是這樣子啊現在講第六條整條都在講可以不要適用國民法官法的審理所以叫你們訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
625.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
644.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
已經訂出來了我現在在根據一個司法院判決查詢系統裡面講有一個檢察官起訴傷害致死的案件而這個裁定的內容被告承認犯罪全部都承認那被告也跟被害人的家屬達成和解 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
645.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
671.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那被告跟被害人家屬也都明確表示因為曠日廢時程序冗長我全部都認罪我也全部都和解了被害的家屬也認為說我們也不想要國民法官那也不要 到這種狀況裡面你覺得說這個這樣的條件符不符合第六條第一項第四款 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
672.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
696.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
報告委員 個案的部分我們不方便評論不過就整體上而言就是說這部分當然各法院他有自己的獨立審判認為適不適合國民法官參與這個良心部分他會有各自的判斷那當然這部分將來就是由上訴程序來進行審查你們一定標準回答這樣子 好來你們法院法官堅持一定要走國民法官法的審理程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
697.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
714.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這個你剛剛講說個別法官的自行的裁量我現在不是要跟你講個案我是要很清楚的問你第一個被告承認犯罪然後從被告跟被害人家屬有達成和解被告跟被害人家屬都明確講我不要用國民法官法因為對我們來講折騰而且跑法院的程序冗長 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
719.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
744.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那第四個法律規定明明就規定也可以這樣子為什麼你們的法官堅持要用國民法官法為什麼還要陪你們完成國民法官審判的這個績效我再問你副秘書長司法審判的目的是什麼司法審判的目的不管職業法官或是國民法官司法審判的最終極的目的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
747.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
768.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
就是把那個實體正義透過司法程序實現出來第一個一定是發現真實嘛第二個罰當其罪嘛對不對就是要這樣子那我們現在就是說在這種狀況裡面法官為什麼會堅持一定說你要給我陪我走完國民參審的這個審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
770.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
788.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所以在這裡你們訂了第六條可以例外可是為什麼法官現在認為說你們要陪我走完這個審判國民參審的審判為什麼那個委員我想兩個部分有沒有一種是制度面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
790.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
816.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
制度面什麼問題 那個第一個當然是個案 個案情形因為不知道 那個是個案法官的那個考慮然後第二個就是說 這個是回應就是說國民法官法 他的那個制度的本質就是說 剛委員講得很好 就是罰當其罪那但是 什麼是一個適當的那個刑罰 其實我們法院那個判決以前出去的時候 大部分對於有罪無罪 還不會引起這麼大爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
818.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
845.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個都是非常重大的社會高度矚目的那一些犯罪但你們的刑事犯罪非常多十年以上的也很多耶不是每個都要叫國民法官除非我們整個司法體制要改要全改陪審團制否則我們不是在這裡陪著你們跑這麼冗長的程序我現在要講的是說還有一個有沒有可能是一種可能你們法院在事務分配的制度上有問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
847.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
848.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
你知道你們事務分配上的制度有什麼問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
852.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
881.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
請委員指教 你不知道可能裝算的吧分案的時候如果你們讓你的案件去使用參審國民法官審理的程序審判長折抵兩件分案受命法官折抵四件到宣誓判決的時候審判長折抵四件受命法官再折抵十件 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
883.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
900.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這個獎勵機制不得了了這個法官可以折抵十個案件分案可以少十個所以如果裁定不行國民參與審判程序則不得主張折抵上訴於宣誓判決時再折抵的件數 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
901.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
929.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以你們怎樣一邊鼓勵折抵交付國民法官審判鼓勵你們法官我給你好的鼓勵的機制你趕快交付給國民法官審判然後去折抵案件你的分擔量會減少另一方面你們嚴格的限縮了如果你法官本身你自行去裁定你不讓他進行國民法官參審的程序進行的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
929.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
949.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
你是不能夠去折抵的 換句話說這一種事務分配的制度這一種獎勵制度 這一種誘因把受命法官自身的利益建立在可能 可能凌駕或犧牲當事人的權利之上有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
952.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
975.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那個包委員我們的觀察跟了解並不是這樣子的因為就是說我的觀察就這個個案從司法體系去觀察因為人家被告全部都認罪了你講的我全認罪然後呢跟被害家屬也達成和解被害者的家屬也說我不想要再跑這一個國民法官審理的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
976.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
987.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
然後法律也規定可以這樣子為什麼你們要 硬要人家陪著你們玩跑完這個程序 你知道你知道這個 副秘書長告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
988.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1009.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
全台灣我去調資料全台灣各地方法院適用國民法官法的案件數跟被告這個被適用國民法官法案件裡面的被告他去申請法律輔助的人數的比例有多高你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1010.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1019.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
非常的高非常的高為什麼多高請林淑芬委員控制一下時間好不好好最後兩分鐘為什麼這麼高為什麼多高多高 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1024.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1030.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
在那個113年177件裡面呢這個是從件數來看那從被告來看的話有153位被告是用國民法官這個審理的案件裡面113年177件去申請法律輔助的有153件高達將近87%然後將近9成 為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1052.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1072.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
因為這些所有的案件都是那個強制辯護案件那事實上我們現在都可以申請那個 都可以申請輔助的不是啦 副秘書長 你內行人講外行話國民法官案件的律師對他們律師還有被告本身來說程序相當的冗長 很難處理 事情很繁瑣 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1077.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1090.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
所以律師費用都比一般案件還要貴還要高事實上很多被告都負擔不起只能去找法服啦是這樣子而且法律師事實上不太愛辦這種案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1094.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1098.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
所以我要告訴你說 其實因為事情很繁瑣 曠日廢時不是只有被告 連受害者的家屬都還在那裡很冗長的陪你們演完這一齣因為我都認罪了 我也都和解了 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1111.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1118.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我就等判刑 你們還要把我再演一遍不是演一遍 陪你們演一齣國民參審的一齣大戲這樣 他們就要再大無盡的折磨你知道大家都知道不是個人很煩的不是被告很煩的個人怕煩他就很煩的 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1133.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1146.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
你還要叫他 我都認罪認罪你不要再給我搞這一套程序你說不行 我就是要搞這一套程序因為我法官可以折抵十個案件的分案量這樣對不對沒有值得說回去好好再 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1152.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1171.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
好 謝謝林淑芬委員今天的詢問委員信賴我們職業法官希望我們職業法官來審理這對我們的肯定我非常謝謝有要件啊我們認罪了 和解了被害者的家屬也認為不想要了是這個要件但你們為什麼硬要逼人家去走那一趟呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1179.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1195.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這個要件是有前提的所以你們是不是制度面你們的折抵你們事務分配的制度有沒有問題這個制度是建立在法官會把個人自身的利益凌駕在當事人的利益之上因為即使是承認了案件國民法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1197.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1202.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
你覺得你們的事務分配這樣的制度對嗎大判決的時候一個可以抵十件這樣對嗎我現在問你說你承認沒有辦法cover過來就知道這多麼的需要耗煩 多麼需要時間多麼的需要這個很多的心力和精力有哪個人負擔得起這樣的律師的費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1221.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1223.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
有哪幾個被害者的家屬負擔得起這樣子冗長的程序不要講被害喔被害家屬也是 更要回去檢討啊謝謝林淑雯委員 |