| IVOD_ID |
165262 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165262 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-20-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-12T10:31:03+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-12T10:43:06+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:03 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a35f0de19abcdbe369c8811cd74de4f6906ee7c1e9a76e5a1bffb99621b7826ebc5f279a864bc0545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
李坤城 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:31:03 - 10:43:06 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「推動普惠金融與金融科技概況及相關措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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接下來我們請李坤臣召委質詢好 謝謝主席我們請彭主委有請彭主委主委好 這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
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詐騙集團啦 這個太子集團他洗錢45億那民眾都很關心說那政府的打詐機關在哪裡啦那這個按照台北地檢署的資料來看的話這一次他們扣押了不動產18筆 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
32.97 |
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然後銀行的帳戶有60個帳戶裡面還有2億多塊2億多元合計扣押的物價高達45億那表示說他洗錢至少也洗了45億剛剛我有聽到這個主委的答覆好說10月14號美國司法部的通知太子集團涉及洗錢10月15號就開始做精檢我的疑問就在這邊如果沒有美國司法部的通知的話我們不可能在10月15號做精檢是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
61.744 |
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那當然這個重大事件的時候呢我們當然會開始啟動我們現在的精檢都非常及時沒有啊 那是美國司法部通知我們我們才去做精檢的耶我想這個是一次它這個詐騙集團涉及全世界30個國家很多國家美國通知以後呢我再猜他們也採取跟我們類似的動作所以說換句話說如果美國沒有通知的話我們不可能在15號做精檢囉這是個假設性的問題是不是我們真的我們有沒有那至少在15號之前沒有做精檢嘛對不對 |
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92.483 |
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應該講我們過去都有做我們按照我們銀行的這些通報該通報我們都通報所以我跟你講就是說主委說有10家銀行他60個帳戶在10家銀行裡面嗎就是我們各自不同這麼多年他從107年開始進入到台灣到現在107年那現在是114年了 |
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其實他在其他國家也類似於我不管其他國家我就是說這件事情凸顯了蠻多的問題那我是希望說就金管會的部分我們能夠改善的地方在哪裡因為如果今天不是說美國司法部有通知的話那我們不可能是15號去做經檢嘛那你說有60個帳戶在10家銀行裡面那我剛剛又聽說朱偉碩認為說大額的通報都沒有問題 |
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都沒有問題嗎不是 應該這樣講我們現在按照我們現在洗錢的規定銀行該做的事比如他覺得異常就通報這件事情我們有請檢察局這是第一個對啊 所以這家10家銀行都沒有覺得有問題所以都沒有通報嘛是不是不是 |
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都有通報 只是通報以後的結果因為綜合比對這個反洗錢這個是一個非常複雜不是只有金管會提供這個訊息對 我知道等於說它會集中到一個地方去做判斷我想這部分好 那我來釐清一些問題好了在打炸的分工任務裡面的話金管會是負責主炸嗎我們是在 |
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主要是主詐 因為有很多嘛市詐 賭詐 主詐已經犯罪了以後 它的金流進來這邊以後呢我們把它辨識出來 把它做一些管控或是配合檢警調去鎖控 就是說負責這個張款的流項面就對了要把它組起來就對了就是如果我們在我們可以知道的情況之下進行這樣的阻止跟增加成本那我就問民眾他們所關心的或是所反映的一些問題啦 |
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就是說這個詐騙集團騙了一些錢然後拿了30幾億現金去買11戶的豪宅然後銀行也不覺得奇怪建商也不覺得奇怪然後大家就質疑說那金管會的AML房子洗錢的能力有問題就是說他30幾億的現金進來豪宅市場買了11戶的豪宅48個車位 26台豪車60個銀行帳戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
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沒有人覺得奇怪 主委你會不會覺得很奇怪這句話稍微停一下銀行確實覺得很奇怪他們在過去這麼多年來銀行覺得有奇怪對 它按照我們的規定陸續的通報了非常非常多次那這個就有問題啦如果銀行覺得有奇怪的話那為什麼一直都沒有發現回去做了解那一直要等到10月15號才去做經檢 |
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跟我們報告因為他整個部分整個犯罪集團他本身他在銀行端銀行會根據他的規定覺得比如說我這是個大異常我就會通報通報以後呢有通報有通報我們都一個個去查你們通報之後勒對那就是我們下一關的要來處理你現在講的是我是講說15號之前的事情嗎對從107年開始108年就開始都有通報 |
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都有通報接下來通報都沒有發現說哪裡有問題所以讓他們一直繼續洗錢下去嗎這是要由執法機關來判斷是不是要採取這個動作所以是哪個單位的問題 |
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哪個單位的問題我們總是要了解問題嘛那如果說金管會這部分沒有問題的話你們說銀行有發現有納額的這個不尋常的交易那也通報了那通報之後咧包委員那個國家洗房的機制最主要有三個單位一個是金融機構他報情資給那個調查局之後那調查局他會做分析運用他會分送相關的資料給執法機關那執法機關再採取進一步相關的動作那就我們所以調查局然後接下來咧 |
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他就會分送給相關的執法機關比方說像刑事檢查局或者是檢調單位等等所以你們這些情誌都給調查局我們跟這十家銀行了解從108年開始金融機構都有依照規定去做大額申報跟可以洗錢的申報 |
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所以我在說108年之後發現說這些大筆交易的金額有問題就對了在他們的風險辨識裡面他們都有辨識出來然後都有依照他們應該要詢問的那有幾筆啊總共有幾筆啊我們目前掌握到的訊息是從108年之後金融機構有做了有52次的相關的申報的動作 |
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然後你們把情資給調查局然後調查局沒有任何的動作嗎這個是整個國家洗房體系所以在哇 那我們國家整個這個洗房體制有問題耶我想應該不太可以這樣不是 我的意思是說藉由這個太子集團這件事情來凸顯說我們的問題在哪裡那後續要怎麼去改進啊如果說銀行有通報如果說銀行沒有通報那銀行的問題那銀行有通報那你們也把相關的情資也給這個洗房中心然後呢 接下來就沒有了 |
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是這樣子嗎不是 剛剛那個同學講過了他是一個比如說我們這邊是第一個接觸點我們自己有一套覺得這個是跟平常不一樣我們就會通報通報以後假如他覺得需要他就會分分給其他具有查核的不是 那我覺得這樣問題很大就是說你們第一線已經有發現有問題了不是 就是其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
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跟我講就觸發警報並不代表說一定有問題當然我知道那這後續咧如果今天不是說美國來通知我們要查的話那他們可能繼續再洗下去沒有就是說其實犯罪跟犯罪偵訪我不是專家但我也可以能想像一件事情就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
426.266 |
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今天來講不是有犯罪的預防機制就不會有犯罪但是每一次的犯罪成功都是給我們很好的機會所以我跟你講要解決問題一定要先確認問題的存在所以我現在要確認問題在哪裡是在金管會那還是說在其他的單位我覺得大家都要檢討這件事情只是說對啊 大家都要檢討這件事情我們第一步就像我們在內部講不是 這整個民眾對於政府的這個打詐的這個機制會產生一個很大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
455.038 |
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因为这个金额太庞大了 |
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他去買豪宅買車位然後有60個銀行帳戶然後錢這樣進進出出然後大家就覺得沒有問題還是說你們覺得已經有問題了然後呢通報上去了然後就沒有了其實委員其實我們就有倒推法的話是很容易感覺這怎麼會這麼做但是銀行每天他面對了這麼多的交易他只是覺得有異常他匯總過去我們後面的專業單位會按照各種情資來判斷我該不該採取行動我想說 |
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485.647 |
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505.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個犯罪集團他不斷的更新那我問主委好了那這次他的集團這個有學到什麼教訓嗎就金管會的部分我想第一個我們現在內部是講ABCA的話就是我現在的規定你們好好做B的話有沒有落實做C的話有沒有什麼方法可以來解決剛剛那個問題不是啊 那ABC大家都知道啊那個問題就發生了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
507.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
526.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
對啊 所以說我們的意思是說這個部分牽涉到的其實我們就要跨部會所以我們跟高檢署就開始密切的去討論這件事應該怎麼處理我覺得這個問題很大因為你如果今天不是美國他要求我們去做調查我們也不會有15號的精檢那也不會有這個地檢署調查局接下來的後續的動作那表示說從107年到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
528.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
551.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
七八年的時間我們沒有採取任何的動作但你們已經發現說已經有問題了那個所謂發現就是它觸發了我們洗錢的運氣對 那觸發之後你們把這些我們把這些訊息 資訊也報上去了然後結果呢 就沒有了啊這才是問題所在啊這是民眾會質疑的地方啊其實誠如很多外界講就是說一個問題的發生其實我們就是一個很好的機會來 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
552.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
570.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
沒有啦 因為這個問題太嚴重了你一個太子集團洗了四十五億然後政府整個打砸了機關就渾然不知也不是啦就是說我跟委員講說我們其實各自有各自在做這些內容那所以我就先至少我先問說金管會有沒有善盡到責任啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
571.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
597.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我剛跟委員報告了就是我們在負責的是監控這些異常交易的通報的部分在我們的查核裡面我們發覺銀行都有做到都有做到所以金管會這部分阻詐沒有問題就對了再來其實剛剛也有委員講這問題不是那麼簡單所以我剛講ABC你有做的有沒有做確實ABC都沒有做這才是民眾在質疑政府的地方剛剛講委員講的時候大家不會去管說這個是屬於金管會的這個是屬於調查局的這是屬於誰的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
600.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
628.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
这整个是对政府的一个打了一个大问号我们也没有这意思我只跟我一样你问我的话就是说我们现在就我们今晚会去了解银行的金流的时候我觉得第一个有没有做通报该做最基本的A你们都做到接下来你的EDD有没有做到确实这还要花时间再去了解我们要找出那个漏洞看看以后我们可以再通报可以再做什么样的一个提供给其他单位把标准把它弄得更聪明我的问题就在于说发生这么大的事情如果不是美国司法部通知的话我们不会有后续的动作 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
629.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
633.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個其實是個假設的問題不是啊 這是事實啊因為14號之前你們有去做經檢嗎就是說這個是事實啊 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
639.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
663.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我想說這是一個我們整個的國家機器很大的部分我只能回答我這一部分所以這個就是整個國家機制人家打砸機制人家會懷疑有問題的地方就在這邊儘管會有回報了你說你有回報了那就回報上去之後DRH接下來我不知道怎麼樣我覺得這個可以繼續再追因為沒有那麼簡單但是利用這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
664.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
683.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這次詐騙的這個洗錢的事件我認為我們有很多的洗房機制要做檢討不然你說那現在大家都知道啦你就是去買豪宅去買車位啊然後把這個錢把它洗白了洗乾淨了啊然後沒有任何的問題啊其實我們也是其實你看啊你看幾乎每一次的詐騙集團查到了都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
684.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
709.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
民宅 好宅 然後民車大概就這樣那你就知道說他們把這些錢就洗成這樣子了啊然後我們拿他一點沒有辦法然後每次新聞報出來就是說哇 這詐騙集團都是開民車然後住好宅這就是打我們的臉啊不過我想這個部分確實我剛才講像委員講說我們有防範的機制沒辦法確保但每一個東西我們都要虛心檢討把我們的制度把它做得更好希望不要有下一次吧這個問題很大再繼續再研究 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
712.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
716.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
好 謝謝召委 謝謝主委接下來有請林委員失明諮詢 |