| IVOD_ID |
16519 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16519 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-17T08:30:46+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-17T13:39:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:08:14 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685826f2beb725bce950f9a65472a0a5ac37a524d1b3d409a1a0cbcd1643530abae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【3月17日、19日及20日三天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:46 - 13:39:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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報告委員會 出席委員人數是人 已組法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 現在開會 請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1767.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1790.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第11屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第二次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年3月13日星期四9時至14時17分地點群賢樓801會議室出席委員陳委員昭姿等15人列席委員張委員齊凱等16人列席官員衛生福利部部長邱太元等相關人員主席蘇兆吉委員清泉 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1791.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1813.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
報告事項 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請衛生福利部部長就有關全國集中症醫療量能進行專題報告並備質詢本次會議由衛生福利部部長報告後委員陳昭芝等20人提出質詢均經衛生福利部部長及各相關主管等即席答覆委員王一川所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1814.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1827.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內已書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定通過臨時提案一項 宣讀完畢好 請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或疑惑之處請問委員上次議事錄有無錯誤或疑惑之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1844.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1871.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
沒有謝謝那我們意思就確定好本會議成為邀請環境部部長衛生福利部教育部經濟部臺灣電力公司臺灣中油公司就氣箱變異自國內空瓶惡化經濟預報與跨部會應變作為進行專題報告那便被質詢現在來在呃現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員我們第一位到的是王靖迅王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1875.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1895.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我們第二位是林月琦 林委員第三位是陳昭之 陳委員好 謝謝介紹今天列席的官員還有第四位是陳穎 陳委員好 接下來介紹我們今天列席的官員環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1895.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1902.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
部長彭啟明謝謝監測資訊師師長黃偉明對不起大氣環境師師長黃偉明監測資訊師師長張順清環境保護師師長許淑質謝謝還有水質保護師師長王玉斌謝謝氣候變遷署副署長張根木 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1928.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1954.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
資源循環署副署長林建山環境管理署副署長劉瑞祥仲規司副市長溫修慧化學物質管理署副署長陳淑玲國家環境研究院檢任研究員陳明妮衛福部醫事師檢任計政卓麗萍 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1958.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1969.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
謝謝國建署科長歐良龍謝謝教育部資訊及科技教育師專門委員廖雙慶好 謝謝經濟部國營事業管理師副市長劉啟孝謝謝廠方署組長吳振華謝謝還有人員署代理組長夏鼓權謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1988.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2007.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
好 水利署組長蘇秉源謝謝台灣電力股份有限公司副總經理郭天和好 謝謝台灣總股份有限公司處長謝茂傑好 謝謝那我們接下來來請環境部彭部長來做報告請 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2015.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2036.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主席各位委員大家好那由環境部來報告氣象變異導致空品惡化我們如何精進預報與跨部位的應變作為那這個簡報大綱如上所示喔那第一個呢是我們國家的這個空氣品質呢其實上在這麼多年努力之下八年來呈現顯著的改善的趨勢例如說PM2.5現在去年的平均是12.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2037.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2054.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
當然各位可以看到那個數字這幾年似乎是有一點沒有像過去幾年降得這麼的多因為其實未來要改善其實也蠻艱鉅的那另外一個是臭氧濃度也顯著的一個降低因為臭氧其實會導致敏感族群例如說流眼淚這種刺激是更大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2055.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2067.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那另外一個呢就今年一到二月我們的空氣品質呢是比前兩年稍微略微的一個改善所以這是過去一到二月的一個比例那我們如何應變這個機制呢我們中央主管機關就是環境部我們會根據預報跟監測的一個結果來啟動這個條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2071.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2090.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
如果到這個條件的話第一個是中央單位採應變的作為我們會協調各種的檢排地方也會採取應變的一個措施那另外一個最重要的就是稽查的應變所以我們到達啟變的標準的時候就會讓跟中央跟地方一起來合作推動這些事情那當然這個訊息全部是公開讓大家可以知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2091.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2107.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那現在呢我們這個應變中心的成立時機呢第一個地方要先要一起成立喔大概地方呢如果一個縣市是一半的車站達到中級的預警就AQI大於150的話就必須要成立或是說隔天連續兩天會達這個AQI150或是任一個車站到達超過200那就要到達這個應變的地方那中央呢分為兩級 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2115.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2138.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
除了離島之外只要有九個縣市以上有到達這個標準成立的話那我們就跟著成立二級還有一種是一級最嚴重就是九個以上縣市而且二化而且未來48小時沒有改善的一個機箱的話也同步會成立那目前呢這個二級的指揮官是由我們大氣司的司長來擔任那主要是以我們大氣司為一個主核心 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2138.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2157.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那另外一個呢是一級的應變就是由我來擔任指揮官那參與的就是各個部會一起共同來參與那因為我們在三月初的時候也有一個事件發生其實二月底的時候那時候二月二十八的時候其實也啟動了大概三四年也啟動了這個二級的指揮中心也有運作過 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2158.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2173.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那我們如何應變精進作為呢第一個是說我們現在呢我們提供預警的這個通知條件AQI的防護呢已經從過去用一個AQI等級可能是經過一個小時平均現在呢用小時平均值到達紅色就會主動的推波 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2173.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2192.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以跟過去相比提早了大概兩到四個小時來對外說而且我們會透過各種的平台針對這種敏感弱勢的一個族群大概有一萬個會提供大概就15分鐘內就可以得到相關的一個訊息所以這個是環保局或是教育部或是衛福部都會通知那另外一個是應變 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2193.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2213.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那應變就包含了說我們要不一樣的內容例如說不一樣的污染就不一樣的應變例如說是立磚污染物就要針對公共工程或是說我們七大的這個商港商港很多漁船也會冒出各種立磚污染物或是露天燃燒的熱區這是三個就是立磚污染物就是PM的影響那另外一個就是臭氧 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2214.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2240.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
臭氧呢就是有一些製程高OFT的製程那減少用VOC那這個VOC大概有兩千家另外一個呢是連鎖大型的餐飲業大概有一千家還有加油站那這個呢也就是讓他們減少這個能夠降低這個負債降低可以來做這個事情那當然啦區域的聯防也很重要因為有時候風只要有大氣風向一增強或是改變有好也有不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2241.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2266.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
例如說東北濟崩來的時候他就要從竹苗相關的就要一起做聯防高壓出海的就不一定所以我們把那個幾個區域一起聯防從上游開始去做一些改善效果反而是很好這個是我們過去會依照空品區或是上下游的關係一起來共同來做應變那另外一個就是我們國人常常發現的緊急的事件這個緊急的事件例如說我們家附近可能要是有一個工廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2266.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2286.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
或是有一個住家發生了嚴重的大火那個煙都很大那個跟一般的空氣污染物不大一樣但是我們環境部也跟各縣市環保局有積極合作也就是說如果有一些即時的大火的話也會讓大家可以知道這個預警的一個功能那另外一個最重要的就是敏感族群的加強特別是校園的這個鄰近的空屋 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2286.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2303.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
所以這個裡面我們可以從強化溯源管控風險然後第二個是加嚴排放加重罰則來處理那另外一個是針對多元的防護措施保護敏感的一個族群那這個部分我們過去有空氣旗那另外一個是空品維護我們會鼓勵學校現在全臺灣有83個空品維護區我們希望建議各縣市一起來配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2308.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2327.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
學校很多學校可以多納入空瓶維護區因為這個就可以減少中污染的這個車輛在附近通過另外一個的是希望再推動持續推動的車輛代數與起火的一個方式其實最重要的是第4個就是我們鼓勵社區跟學校參與我們最近的其實也主動處理了屏東獅子國中其實因為他 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2328.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2356.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
附近有一個瀝青廠那這個瀝青廠呢我們發現它如果製程的改善就可以顯著的改變所以但是這個一定要有學校還有家長會共同一些意識報告主席再給我三分鐘可以嗎好那這個部分呢如果我們把這個建立起來我們希望今年我們可以多一點示範案例然後到時候全國一起推廣就會比較快這個是針對我們敏感族群可以來加強那我們近期呢空品事件呢大概就是以東北風為主還有一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2357.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2372.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
吹東風那為什麼冬天的時候空品會不涼呢最主要就是混合層高度比較低因為溫度比較低所以混合層就是說我們任何的污染排放他到大氣裡面如果夏天的時候那個混合層高度很高可以混合的空間就會比較多所以我們夏天的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2373.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2399.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
空品不會那麼的糟糕可是如果冬天的時候一樣的排放的話它大概就會少了一半所以相對之下空品不良的機會就會擴散條件就會比較糟這個就是冬天主要的影響那目前我們都是提早一週會提供各種的預警在環境部的各種的平台都會讓大家可以看得到那當然啦今年的年月底2月25到28的確發生了一個嚴重空污的事件其實這個裡面呢屬於就是所謂的這種被封測 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2400.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2421.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
污染物的這個累積所造成的我們也發現它的混合層高度只有300到400公尺通常夏天可以到1公里左右所以這個差別是很大就造成我們本地的污染無法排放到是空污的事件那當然3月10號到12號也有一個事件發生同樣的也是混合層高度比較低當然這個其實氣象的原因是扮演一個很重要的一個角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2422.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2438.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那我們其實在226到3月12號其實也成立了防制指揮中心我們二級指揮中心的一個開設227的時候228的時候也持續的一個開設那也通知了非常的多所以如這個卡所示那當然未來要走其實我們也發現了一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2439.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2460.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
挑戰這個是我自己提過的8個挑戰例如說我們希望民間的期待希望可以更嚴格例如說我們平均2.5什麼時候可以到10以下這個也是我努力的目標希望有更多的生活協力但是我們發現大眾對於空污的認知可能其實有一點不大一樣例如說很多人覺得煙囪就是排放很多但是事實上現在汽機車也很多等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2460.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2479.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那另外一個呢是治理的工具我們現在其實也面臨到一些挑戰希望未來可以更好我們希望未來可以跨領域把新的世代來做空品的能夠把它提升起來這個就是我們努力的目標那另外一個呢我們因為去年今年年初的時候我們發布了調整空氣品質指標的各污染的門檻值 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2480.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2505.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
所以等於是我們AQI是把它加嚴了所以加嚴的情況呢我們良好的比例會減少13%普通的比例會增加5%敏感族群的比例會增加8%所以這個基本上呢我們空瓶是變好是加嚴了所以有時候大家會覺得AQI的警告的頻率會多一點點這個也請大家可以了解那我們未來呢希望採取因為未來要減量其實最好的方式就是淨零我們原來在這個我們國家的2030年的減碳目標是28加減 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2508.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2536.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那這個如果我們能夠達到這樣的一個目標努力的話我們有算過大概PM2.5有機會在2030年達到10當然這是一個共利的一個改善我們希望可以努力來做這個事情那另外一個很重要的事情我們環境部也統計了我國空污的來源的現況希望可以更精準的管制目前來看的話PM2.5為例大概境內大概在53%現在的情況是交通源已經大於工業源了 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2536.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2557.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
當然工業園要持續的減但是交通園呢其實過去是我們國內比較少推動的我們希望未來的這個部分呢能夠從各種的方式精準的治理來改善讓大家可以更清楚了解可以更知道那我們現在呢也在推動空瓶的政策新的白皮書我們希望透過各種的方式首先讓大家來許願然後包含了一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2558.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2575.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
公民咖啡館然後最後呢我們現在正在進行白皮書的一個編撰希望呢在三月底到四月中上旬的時候可以把這個我們的空品政策白皮書能夠擬定出來變成我們未來五年下一期努力的一個方向那最後呢我跟各位報告因為我們過去呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2576.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2589.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
環境部有一個監製師他現在過去是監測跟預報是放在監製師大氣師是負責應變那我們現在今年度我們已經報院正在等待院的最後的核定我們希望把這個移到大氣師所以未來我們就監測與預報跟應變三位一體 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2593.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2609.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
全方位一條龍來推動希望效率可以更加的提升我們也會提供更多的一個資源會成立空品監測跟預報中心加強人力來推動做這個事情所以我們希望讓空品的改善推動監測可以更好這個就是我們目標以上是我報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2614.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2633.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
好 謝謝部長很詳細的報告那我們現在來開始懸答做一下宣告第一本會委員諮詢時間為6加2分鐘列席委員為4加1分鐘11點半截止發言登記委員如果書面諮詢請於散會前提出預期不受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2639.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2663.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
4點半截止發言登記那委員如果順便諮詢請余三位前提出預期不受理我們暫定4點半休息10分鐘那有關於本次會議各項書面資料列入紀錄刊登公報好那原則上我們在11點30的時候來處理臨時提案10點半截止收案現在請登記第二位委員是陳昭志成委來做發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2669.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2671.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
謝謝主席 有請彭部長有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2675.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2701.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
陳委員早部長早部長在貴部這個陳生這個環境署的時候在土屋基金管理會有編寫一份這個污染土地再利用制度說明手冊您看過這本手冊嗎我知道這個法令他第八頁非常清楚的寫著污染的土地再利用有兩種方式一個就是說你先去整治一直到解除劣管再使用另外一個方式就是說整治跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2704.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2732.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
再利用它是並行的就是並行的但原則上根據土屋法就是說前面的例子就先做完整治再來利用但是極有很少的例子是並行來做那土屋法第51條第二項受污染的這個整治場址在進行開發利用之前必須提出同時提出整治計畫那目的當然是保障這個環境安全跟民眾健康所以部長您熟悉這樣子的陳述嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2736.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2754.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那我接著要請部長看一下土屋法第17條第二項的規定被公告污染土地受污染整治場址的土地原則上禁止的土地利用行為包含 下面一條我把它框起來了環境影響評估法所規定的開發行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2757.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2764.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
除非除非他經過中央主管機關的認同那這條法當初定的目的是什麼部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2765.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2793.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
其實報告委員以這個案例如果說你關心的協和電廠它其實106年曾經這種被列為污染的場址那其實經過一年大概是一年多的時間107到108也整治過所以它就我們現在認定它並不是所謂的土壤污染的你講的時間點我有更後面的時間點的資料給你這個立法的目的就很清楚嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2794.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2798.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這個目前基本上是不是要在這個利用行為一定要這個要 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2800.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2811.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
環境評估法規定的開發行為這個部分它是要符合否則會被限制除非主管機關同意那我們再看下一張 部長上個月底2月26號環評會不顧台電協和電廠世界開發案的土壤受嚴重污染的事實質疑在當天要通過環評你們自己打點這第17條第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2824.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2849.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我當然知道你們會說協和電廠這個土地不是被公告為不是被公告為已經處理過了土壤污染這個整治場址但這就是台電規避的原因因為一旦被公告為這個土地這個污染整治場址依法就不能再進行在這之前不能進行這個再咖啡利用所以台電明知道有污染 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2850.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2855.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
就是刻意對環境部環評會隱瞞資訊好根據我手上這幾份調查報告你先看投影片2019比你講的時間還晚2021、2022同樣的監測點多次重複出現土壤重金屬嚴重超標那 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2870.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2883.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
其中有一份我在2月25號部長那天總質詢你說你沒看到我新聞是2月25號後面有給 正文是給你們然後副本是給台電跟基隆市市政府我給這個報告給你們這個報告裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2888.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2892.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
就是剛剛我提到的這些檢查2019、2012、2012都有發現很多有污染情況但是環平火車就是硬要開下去硬開我必須說 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2902.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2909.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
非常離譜的台電委託的單位太新工程在內部會議在2024年11月6號剛剛我提到的這個資訊是2019、2021、2022有一些污染的內部的證據他們所謂的自主性調查但是到去年11月6號 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2924.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2932.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
台電跟泰晶他所委託的公司泰晶工程做內部的會議的時候建議這太離譜了你看這個圖 下一張那個圖等一下我交給你 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2937.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2955.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
這個是封面 內部會議的封面你看看它裡面的建議跟討論怎麼寫因為這個洪匡因為已經知道污染位置因為他們提前做了這個自主性調查他已經知道哪些點是污染的他說已經知道污染位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2960.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2988.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
實在是太離譜了好我請問你2025年我們再來做一次如何你真的要請考驗嗎台電這麼多年來引領土地這個污染的事實讓整個環評機制受到質疑導致主管機關環評會他們也看不到這個資料那我在環評會之前把資料寄給你們當天開會的時候環境部也說收到啊收到我們資料哦但是環評會跟火車失速的火車一樣一直往前撞 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2991.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3007.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
開綠燈讓他規避規避台建被列為這塊土地被列為土壤污染的整治場場址的這種不良企圖請問部長我們在物理市很多人問環境部是經濟部的小弟嗎不是只有委員你會叫我是小弟 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3010.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3029.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那我剛剛講的這個資料呢第一個是環評基本上如果它是土壤這個整治區它要完成之後才能進行開發環評是環評的一個程序那至於說委員提到這個東西我歡迎委員我們就來兼具來處理這個事情你跟我講的重點讓我繼續你跟我講的重點你一直在強調跟那些市長講的話一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3031.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3059.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
就是什麼整治跟這個環評是平行式是兩件事情這個你們利用那個法律的模糊來解釋為什麼不是先整治再環評到最後來看給大家看公平啊你們竟然組決議裡面通過原則就是通過17比0我形容那個是習近平跟金正恩開的會才會有17比0然後附帶學藝寫的一些重要的事情你們要去持續要去追隨就是遵守那個整治法 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3060.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3079.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
所以基本上來我們來看看總之其實我給這個等一下我把這份給你然後你要看那個字規避這些地點已經遭到污染了所以我們這種自檢查是我們要避開這一點公然的要這樣子寫我要這份資料要得多辛苦我們早就有了其實接避者早就有了台電 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3080.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3093.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
怎麼隱瞞放多久才肯給我們報告委員那個接避者是不是送給我我們就成立接避者調查委員會然後來處理這個事情左院長已經同意了所以也非做不可那委員是不是也請台電來報告可以等一下我就交給你所以好我們來看這是當年這個台電的環評書內容明顯的造假說謊台電跟受託的這個泰興公司這個他前面有講說移動點嘛因為你們知道這些點是污染的所以你就避開了那個點 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3109.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3120.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那最重要的是他隱瞞了真相他告訴你不要去碰那些點第二個泰興公司他不但是台電的自行檢測單位他竟然也是台電委託交出環評書的這個單位這樣有沒有利益衝突啊那這就是為什麼環評會議當天你們只交到一個點一個採樣點說不出事這個怎麼總是有探親話物沒有 真猜不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3135.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3138.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
事實上自主調查是採了59個點位像話嗎?事先跑了59個點位然後知道哪邊有汙染然後再找一個乾淨的是嗎?是這樣嗎?結果交出一個點位太離譜了明顯違反環評法第11條提出的文書明知為不實事項而記載這情勢所以環境部你要不要追究台電的造假問題還是要當共犯?還是要當共犯? |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3162.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3167.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
委員你送來的東西我們就成立一個吹哨者調查調查這段過程非錯不可那這個是不是請台電來回應沒有他能回應嗎我剛剛講了有一句他是不實的嗎我現在問題是那天通過環評會議部長我要先跟你說你的環評會議你的環評會議17比0通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3181.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3199.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
17比0是一個一個問有共識委員你不能用那樣的說法我們是民主國家你們大概很少見識到一個17比0沒有委員你不能這樣說那天的很多的媒體都在現場17比0是什麼我沒有造假17比0是問說委員要不要共識決還是什麼決一個一個問過大家委員都沒有任何的意見這個是一個共識決 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3200.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3221.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
如果是事實下面下面寫附帶決議說以後再補充說明補充說明也希望後續應該積極依照土屋法去辦理天啊有這個我就是通過了然後附帶決議說你們再去補充這些資料說明有這樣的水準的這個會議嗎我們發生什麼事情部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3222.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3239.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
但是上週四我不在場那天環評會我們三個立委在場上週四環團去環境部抗議在提出這些施政的時候媒體是報導我是想請教你有這回事嗎環境部有回應說已經要求基隆市進場查證如果查證處時完成整治後才能進行世界開發這是事實嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3242.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3255.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
這個其實本來就是規定報告委員其實有一些要開發一定要整治環境才能再開發這個是過去已經有一個事實在這邊過去很多的案例都是這個樣子並不是說這個案子特別不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3257.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3274.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
土地搜燃那你要在基隆市市長當天也在場2月26號你要他再做一次檢查那你還名我們都告訴你這麼多資料開會前給你而且還有很多程序問題等一下我再繼續告訴你我們要求給了這個資料以後竟然還名會繼續開繼續開完全不停派你們那個市長徐市長對這個支持方那麼友善對反方一直罵 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3284.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3292.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
沒有委員 那天你們已經炸我們提出程序問題 因為我事前給你資料可是已經被大戰的主席台了當然那個聲音很吵雜他說我們立委沒有資格提程序問題報告委員那個環評會是以委員為主環評委員為主裡面有三分之二都是學者專家我跟你講程序問題在什麼地方就是第一個本來七天前開會要公告所有資料他讀了核心資料第六章第六章核心是缺的 消失的好把那一章給他們看 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3315.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3325.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
毒藥啊 消失的毒藥 那是核心資料啊就是我們最重視的那一點那一點資料沒有公開啊那你開什麼懷評大會 搶戲交易你是破搶戲啊好 沒關係 那天我今天沒有辦法 這個徐司長當天也是對這個反方非常的不客氣對這個支持方 講話很不客氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3341.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3356.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
因為那天卓部長已經指示要進行行政調查他答應我 你在旁邊對不對歡迎委員把這個送過來我就來調查來處理這個資料你們沒有嗎我把資料寄給你們因為那個是吹哨者 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3357.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3380.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
NO 這部分是台電的台電有這個資料包委員是不是請台電回覆一下反正行政調查第一個我要做行政調查否則你們就是共犯我們去調查真相然後第二個我要知道進度多久可以完成第三個在這行政調查之前二月二十六環民會是不是要先撤銷他的結論通過的結論關心所有人民的這個土地健康跟國民的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3387.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3408.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
請他回答一下因為周院長在總質詢有說可以進行行政調查謝謝主席委員好台電公司在這邊做兩點聲明簡單的先回覆第一件事情土屋法跟環評法這兩個的法源是互不干涉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3410.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3425.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
剛剛部長有特別提示土定整理完成之後我強調的是我已經找出很多資料你們在規避土屋因為你們說你們沒有被公告是污染的場址不是 土屋法委員我們先這樣講你先把土屋法的法源跟環評法的法源兩個似乎不干擾沒有先後秩序你們先不要再處理你自己的程序你硬先通過然後我們再去調查沒有 委員你這樣講就 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3440.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3458.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
比較不合乎邏輯了麻煩你回座我沒辦法跟他溝通就是說我部長因為卓院長當時有說就行政調查重啟嘛基隆市政府也叫他再調查一下2025年看通不通得過嘛我已經告訴你2019、2021、2022年裡面還有多錄聯本欸很毒欸 七倍欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3460.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3473.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
好 那我就請任調查 好嗎好 實際上還是可以再跟委員說明清楚好不好給你說明你也是沒辦法來接下來請林蔚琴委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3484.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3513.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
好 麻煩我們的部長還有我們的監測資訊師的師長請滕部長還有教育部資訊及科技教育師的專門委員和我們的國民健康署科長好 委員早監測師的師長還有教育科技還有國健好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3515.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3532.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
部長早我覺得我肯定環境部在空屋防治上的努力可是在報告中部長你也提到當供給品質惡化時主管機關應該要採取更應變的防治跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3533.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3562.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
健康防護措施來依據我們的氣象固定的污染源跟移動污染源等特性公告並執行防治措施那包括工廠汽車輛的排放跟營建工地的管理跟提醒敏感族群的防護那也強調要加強保護我們的敏感族群針對不同污染物能夠採取不同的應變措施像工廠的排放管控 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3562.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3574.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
跟加油在我們的油氣的回收可是我也想問部長你所謂的敏感族群是不是有區分大人跟小孩所以我想針對這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3575.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3604.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
來跟部長做討論部長我一直都認為我覺得一個問題為什麼學校跟固定的產生空屋工廠的距離至今是沒有明確的規範那根據報導者調查全台有141所國小31所國中距離500公尺都有違規的工廠其中28間學校周遭甚至有2間以上的違規工廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3605.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3610.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那校園跟這樣子的污染源的距離規範我們看到的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3611.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3635.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
去年我針對學校周邊的潛在危險設施提出規範要求加油站設置距離應納入幼兒園保護範圍可是去年11月教育部回函支持表示會跟經濟部研議修正法規可是至今也是沒有下文那兒少全法第47條也規定只要有害兒童身心健康的營業場所都 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3636.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3657.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
必須距離學校有200公尺以上2020年環境部也預告修正我們的移動污染源違反空氣污染防治法裁罰準則的時候如果柴油車跟機車排放的污染物影響學校罰款加重1.5倍所以部長工廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3658.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3678.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
排放的污染不會遇到學校就轉彎喔我們固定場所已經事實上都還有200公尺那可是他會他所以這樣污染源他會隨著空氣風向轉向學校我們對於交通跟營業場所都有一些距離的管制可是卻對這些污染的工廠沒有辦法管這樣對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3681.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3706.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
這個是我們希望也可以改善的因為委員說的都是現在事實因為報導者這邊我有特別看他特別舉出了一些學校那當然啦有些的這個違規的工廠他是一直過去我們對這個認知沒有那麼的多那我們現在我會去面對這個問題那這個面對這個問題呢有幾種一個是如果新設的話一定要盡量有一些更好的一個規範那至於舊有既有的話我們就要加強監測 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3707.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3716.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
所以想問部長現行的法規規範空氣污染的防治法管住就已經是不是有不足的地方你什麼時候要跟教育部討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3718.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3739.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
這個委員我們會來處理來進行好不好因為我把所有的相關的法規找出來也就看起來我們的空屋治理的法規非常的多可是沒有人負責而且政策很零碎執行也很破碎所以兒童的健康事實上是被忽略的各部門各管各的那涉及到兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3740.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3761.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
跟空污的法規關係大概有12項其中前面環境部的前4項跟教育部的前3項總共7項事實上是有一些關聯性的可是環境部只針對我們的空氣品質惡化時規範學校應變措施簡單來講就是說發生事情的時候再來管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3762.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3781.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那教育部呢在選校的時候的確會考量空屋可是沒有明確的標準這真的讓我們覺得很可笑因為孩子健康就掌握在尤其事實上選校子之後呢工廠怎麼設好像都沒有特別去規範所以僅依環保署的法規去調整體育課 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3782.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3797.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
就叫孩子體育課不要出來就好了那衛福部的兒童機構的那個環境規劃更偏向於環境清潔跟事故預防未設標準所以我想問國監署你2023年我們的兒圈公約的15號意見書就已經出來了針對健康權 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3803.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3825.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
到2023年2013年出來15號一間2023年到26號一間書在提到氣候權的時候都也提到了所謂這樣的空汙對他的所以我不知道我們的國健署在主管健康你對衛福部在訂兒少權法甚至修正的時候都沒有提嗎好 國健署委員我是不是請國健署來回答謝謝委員這部分我們後續可以再來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3833.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3859.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
因為兒權公約我們從2014年國內法化之後都到現在為什麼國健署在監管我們兒童健康的反而事實上是沒有回應好 國健署請回教育部要不要回應一下我還有教育部要回的所以以兒少權法為例我們的第七條就明確規定中央政府主管機關包括教育跟勞工跟經濟14個機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3861.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3871.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
可是環境部沒有列入那這也代表環境部對兒童的權益事實上是被忽略的所以想問部長你認為在兒少權益環境部的責任是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3874.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3895.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
呃我我贊同委員這個對於一些例如敏感族群兒少的教育場所呃特別常出沒的那我們是現在有針對一些例如說幼教的場所有在進行但是委員你提到的這個的確是對可是我就覺得很納悶的哈為什麼因為室內空氣品質管理法裡邊呃他第六條有針對於好各個 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3897.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3918.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
場域裡邊要逐步的去公布說哪些場域要被歸管那環境部先後公告了前面11項應該講第二項到11項可獨獨第一項目前針對於我們的所謂教學場所竟然只公告了大學醫院政府辦公室大眾運輸跟娛樂場所 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3920.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3936.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那我們最重要最重要是越幼小的孩子更需要被保護反而事實上是獨立高級中等以下學校跟兒少教育跟活動場域這讓我覺得蠻特別2018年我們本黨的立委許智傑委員也有提 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3937.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3956.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
出來跟教育部要求可是當時事實上到現在都還沒有去做這樣的一個考量可是老人的福祉機構都早一批被公布了為什麼我們的兒少機構那我覺得我們的教育部跟環境部有互踢皮球嗎所以何時納管所以環境部跟教育部給我一個時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3958.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3963.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
委員這個目前是幼兒園或托嬰中心是有啦委員說的高中跟國小這個我們會再來討論對可不可以給個時間教育部要不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3969.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3996.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
跟委員報告一下 因為之前在幼教階段的部分 因為幼教的場所啦 因為蠻多 大概六千多所學校 那每一所學校他如果要符合那個環境部的那空瓶的規標我講的是給我一個時間好不好我們盡快啦 就是跟環境部來一起推動因為那部分的標準是真的還蠻 蠻嚴格的 那需要需要一段的時間來推動好 那環境部呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4000.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4026.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這個我們會來研議因為委員你說的就是說高中國中國小其實這個部分的確是缺的我們是針對幼兒園那些托嬰中心大學都管了可是反而事實上是高中子以下的都沒在管可是世界衛生組織跟我們的聯合國兒童基金會都特別提醒說兒少是環境跟空氣污染影響最嚴重的族群那 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4027.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4052.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
目前很多時候工廠設在學校旁邊我們到底對學生的健康保護到底在哪裡尤其他也提出來說今天孩子因為呼吸速度比較快活動量高所以他的呼吸系統的發育還沒有成熟的時候他對於空氣污染對他的影響比成人還更嚴重反而你去保護我們已經滿18歲以上18歲以下的完全不去做歸管 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4053.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4067.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
所以我想問部長說現行的我們的檢測標準真的能夠保護健康嗎那我想也要問你們說那你們認定到底這樣的標準事實上應該要比大人更嚴格呢還是跟大人一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4068.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4084.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
從學理上應該是要更嚴格啦例如說大人的標準他小朋友應該更嚴格一點那他是更要被保護的族群你們至今第一個沒有沒有去歸管另外一個事實上是也沒有一些標準在那沒有標準的結果就是做什麼呢就是叫孩子呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4084.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4103.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
反正你關窗嘛 忍耐嘛 戴口罩那難道就成為唯一的選擇嗎因為現在檢測方式根本沒有辦法去真實反映學校周遭的周邊的污染現況所以以試問先站在場上的各位能接受每天上班的時候聞到瀝青或工廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4103.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4131.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
排放的廢棄的臭味嗎可是現在就是都是現實我們學童遇到的一些狀況很多學生呢學校的師生因為吸入異味出現我們的頭暈耳心甚至身體不適的狀況可是為什麼不知道你們檢測空氣品質卻顯示空氣品質正常這個有沒有檢舉的時間跟稽查的時間根本兜不上甚至有沒有人通風報信 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4133.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4142.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我們怎麼會是品質這樣 如果孩子都已經聞到所以部長請說明一下目前學校周邊發生異味的時候 聞到不舒服 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4144.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4166.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
檢測卻又正常這種跟事實脫節的狀況原因你覺得是什麼第一個是檢測占不夠因為學校他其實都是屬於這種微氣候所造成的影響第一個是要可能要增加一些檢測的設備所以我們目前這個會加強那委員提到的針對這個弱勢的這個族群我們會第一個是到底弱勢的族群他的這個AQI的標準要設到多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4167.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4186.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
這個我們現在會來研議做這個事情那委員關心的部分呢再容許再給我們一點時間我們跟教育部一起來討論對那就要問教育部除了叫孩子忍耐關窗戴口罩那到底為什麼孩子要忍我們自己大人都聞不下去了所以你有沒有其他的應對的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4188.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4207.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
跟委員報告一下就是我們剛委員有列出我們相關的一些針對空瓶的一些因應規範其實我們有針對弱勢族群就是呃呃呃而且比較身體比較脆弱敏感的族群有做一些相關的一些應變還有演練而這份我們也是我們我們尊重我們我們尊重CRC的一個一個規範啊來做相關的一些關懷和呃緊急的應變處理好 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4211.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4239.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我請環境部在三個月內召開跨部會的會議針對學校跟兒童出沒的一個區域空屋標準應該召開專家學者會議而且要以孩子的標準不是用大人的標準能不能辦到好可以委員謝謝委員的建議再給我一點時間稍微我照樣站起來那最後我還是要問教育部因為空屋不是環境問題更是影響到學生受教權 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4241.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4262.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那平不平等的狀況那我的選區 我應該講說我的認養區域是觀音區那他的樹林國小報道率僅剩下三成全校僅剩下112人其中三分之一是單親跟低收入戶的學生內這些弱勢家庭 你覺得他遇到空污的時候他們有選擇權嗎教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4266.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4289.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這個部分不理會來重申我原提的這幾個學校我們也會你剛才講敏感族群你要保護我覺得連弱勢為什麼因為當學校周遭長期受汙染家長呢當然不得不要讓孩子轉學或跨學區就讀那是有能力的有能力的家庭可是如果事實上是沒有能力的家庭因為他是弱勢那你對弱勢支持是什麼就是繼續讓他們在更遏制的環境當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4293.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4322.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那他的健康我常常說若是家庭經不起健康的問題他們沒有財力去處理他健康所以教育部是不是能夠去檢討有什麼機制協助這些孩子這些家庭在目前沒辦法處理的時候能不能符合最佳利益孩子最佳利益事實上是補貼交通費用讓他們離開這個環境嗎去其他學校就讀嗎還是事實上因為他根本事實上是沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4322.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4351.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
搬離這個地方所以請教育部先做一些評估一樣的跟我們的環境部在三個月內給我一個報告最後當然就是期待我們建立學校周邊的污染工廠的距離還有依據不同工廠樣態進行我們的盤點整頓的一些規範然後第二個教育部應該針對空污的風險高的學校裡面有具體的協助機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4351.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4370.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
第三個 三個月內將高中值以下納入到我們的室內空氣品質管理法的那個監測範圍第四 針對兒少專屬空屋的標準呢三個月內召集專家學者召開專家學者會議謝謝 趙偉謝謝委員很好的建議謝謝 我們會納入參考 謝謝好 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長還有各單位就照這個委員的建議來做這樣的後續處理那接下來請陳情惠委員來做選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4387.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4391.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
主席謝謝各位委員還有各位官員我也想請彭部長謝謝請部長陳委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4396.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4416.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
部長早部長記得上次我們有質詢過掛在您的署下一個計畫建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計畫這個計畫呢總經費要花96億元今年2025年正式上路那我也記得之前有曾經質詢過您今年我們預計用3000萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4418.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4439.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
採購第一台核生化災害處理車還有另外再花九千萬買三台化學災害處理車共計一億兩千萬元所以我想請問目前這個招標跟採購的計畫進度是如何好 報告委員 這個是不是請我們化學署副署長來回應因為這個是我可能都看不到這個招標案來 副署長謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4443.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4455.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
我們的建構國際安全化學計畫及能量性永續計畫是跨部會合作的部分那剛剛委員關心的部分他是跨部會的採購那是採購的一個權責都是在相關的部會裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4456.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4476.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
所以你被掛名了 現在不知道自己進度在哪裡的事情不是 不是掛名 因為每個部會有他的採購程序那現在是三月嘛 那正在進行這個標案的一個審查跟採購作業這樣子所以上次有請教過部長 最後這些核生化處理車您要放在哪一個縣市政府 請問您現在溝通好了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4477.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4501.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
核生化處理的部分是國防部因為有儲屋的一個需求我們大概在15年前跟國防部合作買了就訂製了兩部的一個儲屋處理車但是年代已經很久遠了有些都已經老舊所以他必須要再重新去做採購的部分那至於說配在哪些縣市因為那是國防部他在主政做分配不會放在縣市應該是放在軍團的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4503.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4530.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
所以其實你們這邊化學署是不清楚的只是你們跟人家一起掛了一個計畫報告委員不是不清楚我們都有定期的召開會議我們三個月才跟部會開過會議這樣子會瞭解他們的計畫所以還在採購中我們對整個計畫是有做控管的他整個進度都要報告到我們GPS的整個的流程上去做控管因為現在才三月份他是每一季要做一次報告的那就請部長回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4532.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4550.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
謝謝部長這個你應該也看過非常多的報導因為現在新興污染物這件事情很獲得重視而且超過六成的民眾缺乏對它的認識那當然其中包括塑料啊或是環境荷爾蒙啊以及除草劑農藥等等的殘留但這些東西一旦在空氣中經過降雨 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4551.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4564.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
到水裡面它同樣也會污染我們的水質今天您的報告大部分都在講到空氣品質但請問為什麼隻字未提空氣污染對水污染造成的防治跟因應呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4564.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4586.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
包委員因為目前我們台灣的水質例如說我們關心的PFAS等等它其實來源是我們實際上的污染直接排放到水體裡面去例如說PFAS的這個影響那我們國內的對重金屬對於水質的影響並不是很嚴重所以這個部分其實因為我們談的是PM2.5空瓶的危害那個倒到水裡面其實目前來看的話影響不是很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4587.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4610.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
對 我就是要跟您聊這個PFAS剛剛有講到說PFAS它會從空氣排到水你的水溫如果升高的時候其實PFAS就會揮發到空氣中水溫如果降低的時候PFAS就會流在水裡面所以您不覺得PFAS這樣子的新興污染物其實你也要列入你的空瓶空瓶的評鑑項目之一嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4611.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4630.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
報告委員因為那個PFAS現在都是例如說我們國人過去用的例如說消防器或是食品的包裝那個為主那跟空氣裡面的量因為我們其實在去年跟NASA合作有去量那個空氣中裡面PFAS它的濃度跟亞洲的世界各國相比並不是特別的高 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4631.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4647.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
可是您看這是您之前2023年自己環境部做的報告耶你說2023年的時候全台灣你盤查起來有37座的淨水廠PFAS是超標的沒有其實沒有那麼的多我是不是請我們的水保司司長簡單的回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4649.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4679.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
跟委員報告剛才那個37座當時這個是美國的標準美國標準是在去前年的時候訂了一個全世界最嚴格的標準那事實上這個標準基本上非常的嚴格幾乎是不能減出那各國都在做這個PFAS相關的一個研究那我們是在去年的時候訂了這個相關的我們國內的標準這個國內的標準基本上參考了這個世界的衛生組織還有鄰近國家那我們訂了這個標準之後目前的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4679.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4706.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所以你的意思是說美國的標準太嚴格我們自己台灣稍微下修一下不能這麼說基本上因為美國他有生產跟製造PFAS然後他的軍工廠這個飛機廠這個相關的這個使用比較多而且歷史比較久那PFAS他是我們講的所謂的一個難分解的一個有機物他在環境中可能會比較久一點那美國因為他長期使用而且製造所以他的問題是相較比較嚴重好 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4707.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4733.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
好那今年呢其實1月的時候我發給您公文說請問這個會期你有沒有想要修法的一些環境部相關的法案結果您回答我是沒有現在問一下齁請問這個飲用水管理條例既然你都已經知道說有37座淨水廠致癌物超標好也許小於37座那你認為這個20年沒有修的飲用水管理條例到現在都不用再去管它嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4734.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4762.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
報告委員這個其實我們在去年的11月25號就發布飲用水的水質標準的條例這個是我們用我們自己環境部就可以發布這個有發布了所以你不需要調整目前已調整了PFAS我們例如說PFOA跟PFOS要小於50那個NGL那你知道罰環關於你的罰環有多久沒有修改了嗎這個可能很久了這個對 化學度基本上是回到飲用水管理條例母法的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4763.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4783.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
我跟你說28年28年沒有修改了等一下我們來看一下你的法環大概是多少這個就是您剛剛講到的2023年發現PFAS超標但是你到2024年8月中旬才開始預告說要制定相關的規範所以您現在其實是把相關的規範調整到比美國稍微再寬鬆一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4786.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4804.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我們是跟日本相同的跟日本是一樣的標準所以從預告到上路最後呢2027年7月才會開始有處罰機制所以2027年7月往前這樣子回推是不是就算是一個免罰的空窗期 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4804.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4834.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
包委員其實不是這個是讓他們有機會去改善跟緩衝因為現在我們這個有幾個淨水廠是的確他的標準是比較高一點點那事實上他們一直逐漸在降低當中所以他們為什麼需要這麼長的時間可以跟我們大家解釋一下嗎包委員那個其實要改善PFAS水質表現他的這個製程淨水的這個設備是要大幅度的改善所以自來水公司希望他們自己要努力一點所以要到2027年我們才能比較安心一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4836.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4849.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
跟委員報告基本上我們曾經有普查過也參考了美國污染的一個案例的做法我們會針對機場附近的進水場優先那這個部分調查的結果基本上我們的瞭解復驗的結果基本上都符合規定這個部分沒有太大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4850.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4873.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那進一步的話就是前面的一個調查的部分我們已經排定了一個稽查的一個計畫那會逐步來做那這個部分我們也了解了這個其他國家的一個污染的一個案例的了解基本上地面水鐵的部分不用太大關心不用太大擔心那只要是附近有污染的類似這個機場的話我們要特別注意那我們已經有做過相關的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4874.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4896.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
部長我給你看一下這個就是28年從來沒有調整的假使有污染飲用水最高是罰6萬假使有新興污染物污染的飲用水最高是處罰60萬這是民國86年訂的我不知道您有沒有機會可以到我們中南部我週末才到高雄跑行程你應該知道到處都是加水站吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4897.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4923.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那你知道民眾會去加水的原因是什麼嗎包委員其實目前我們環境部調查PFAS等等的污染只有地面水體只有一點點它就在機場的這個附近那至於說這個南部當然南部有些水質不好但是一部分是口感的問題啦但是其實水質的改善還是我們需要的目標因為它真的要改善花的錢多不只六萬啦它其實要花可能要六百萬或六千萬以上所以要給它一點點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4923.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4941.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
因為可能一般民眾很重視的比如說清道垃圾或是糞便 尿液化學物品 動物的殘骸等等污染水質28年前訂立的罰金額度最高不超過6萬來處分你覺得合理嗎你覺得你這個需要研議來修正調整嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4942.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4955.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
包括委員 這個其實是一個樣但是有時候我們處理都是會按日來的研發所以委員不用擔心所以你覺得不用修改當然啦 其實只要公布的話其實對這些飲用水的提供者的單位壓力會更大 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4957.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4974.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
你覺得六萬壓力很大不是只要我們跟大家講說這邊水油不能喝那邊有問題好那我等一下我等一下給你看一下哪邊水有問題你應該記得之前其實有一個牽管造成這個水質的汙染所以當時呢我們全台北市就找了相關的人免費喔到 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4975.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5002.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
市立醫院去辦理抽血的檢查 檢查這些圈有沒有過量那這是我們辦公室從你們環境部拿到的資料你們最近呢有發現一間大學有一個神經毒性的本超標64倍然後被開罰但你們並沒有告訴國人這件事情那根據國家環境毒物研究中心裡列為本就是一個致癌物但是你們卻沒有發布這個消息請問為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5006.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5020.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這個是一個簡易自來水那簡易自來水的意思就是由自己因為他這個自來水管線沒有到達他自己設置的那是以設置的一個處理基本上這個處理的設備附近我們有發現說他有堆置其他的一些物品 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5021.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5040.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
所以他的本是來自於他堆置其他的物品對 還有其他的這一個相關的設施在那邊我們是覺得這個是一個問題所以我們後面去復驗的結果基本上已經都符合規定了那包含環保局的復驗還有這個檢疫自然水質管理單位那你們有關心這些師生的健康嗎 主席我就要好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5042.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5066.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
你們有關心這些失聲的健康嗎因為他們已經不知道暴露在這些神經毒性的本多久了這個部分因為對我們是覺得他是一個單一的一個事件因為這個可能還有這個相關的一個檢驗的問題都要重新再做一次確認所以我們復驗的結果基本上是符合規定所以你們復驗沒有那你們就覺得以前的這個本超標可能沒有對這群人造成危害 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5070.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5089.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
應該這麼說就是說這個本的這個項目基本上常常跟他的採樣也有很大的密切的關係所以我們也辦了復驗之後確定他沒有太大的問題那他們不用去接受一些檢查嗎這些已經暴露在這些本裡面的學校的工作人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5092.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5111.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
我們會再來跟這個科技大學做一個追蹤跟了解因為它基本上它是一個供水的這個簡易自然水的供水單位好我覺得這樣跟跟你們以前處理這個鉛重堵的事件有點落差太大了之後我會再跟你們追好嗎謝謝我再來了解喔謝謝謝謝好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長請回那接下來請盧縣立委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5130.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5144.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
我們今天就談PM2.5的事情那我想先知道說這近年來的進步你覺得最主要的原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5145.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5168.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
報告委員其實很多人的努力啦例如說之前的這個大型的這個柴油車然後把空屏移動員管制那當然啦這個電力業其實他的減煤也是一種新的一個做法然後其實另外一個呢就是說如果未來我們要推動淨零其實整個整個生活型態的轉變那個其實也可以造成PM2.5的下降目前我們的PM2.5是多少大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5169.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5193.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
全國大概12.8有那麼好嗎有有有但是南部比較高一點點那目前OECD的標準是在10希望我們還是朝10的方向來努力好不好好可以那我先問你一下每10個也就是我所謂的PM2.5的濃度他的癌症的那個相對風險是多少大概是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5193.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5219.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
對 包委員這個因為不一樣的學者他算的不一樣那我們現在其實環境部也想要啟動這個新一波的調查那我們現在在研議當中所以這個未來呢如果我們有好的數據再跟委員報告對 我還是告訴你現在的研究是2022年就是1.12倍每10個我們所謂的PM2.5的那個單位那PM2.5目前正佔我們肺癌的那個比例大概是16%左右所以這個還是要告訴國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5220.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5227.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那我想要知道是說你知道我們現在引起肺癌而且是空污所造成大概是多少人死亡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5230.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5257.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這個數字沒關係那我告訴你在2000年的時候全球市大概是100萬那預估在2050年的時候是350萬那這是我今天查的資料給你做報告雖然我們目前看到是有顯著的進步可是我相信因為我們生活在每天不一樣的大氣環境而且我知道空氣的變化是瞬息萬變所以我覺得每一個環節都必須要注意那我們來盤點一下我們目前的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5258.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5269.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
我們的境外或者是說國內的污染來源狀況你看我們下一張我們現場這個就是說對我們現在很進步可是3月11號有拉警報你知道警報的原因是什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5271.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5291.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那天有一些境外加上吹東風吹東風的影響然後西半部是一個很穩定的下沉氣流然後這個溫度又很低混合層比較低那你有告訴國人這件事情嗎有沒有通知各個縣市政府有有有這個也有應變的體制大概是多少的時間請問我們大氣司司長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5293.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5313.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我最主要要講的原因就是說希望有即時性報委員其實這個空瓶在前兩天發覺這空瓶不好的時候我們其實檢測預報就已經通知各縣市那各縣市就其實接到通知以後他其實已經轉資所有的包含長照醫療等相關機構還有學校有確切的時間嗎有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5315.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5325.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我們可以再提供給你們我們比較倒楣就在南部你看永遠都是在下風挫也就是說它比較不容易揮發的地方那有沒有針對這個部分來做努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5325.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5352.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
因為這個是整個台灣地形造成這個氣候的一個原因所以南部要馬上能夠很立即的改善要降到很快這個氣象的因素這個環境的因素我知道是環境的因素很重要可是我說我們有沒有在做努力有的確有在做努力例如說像未來的這個例如說我們能源結構的改變或是說我們汽機車能夠減少其實各種的負載其實都是有用的可是目前看到我們的檢測站目前全國是只有87站 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5353.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5375.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那就針對我說比如說我住山地門比如說我等一下要去內埔就沒有這種鄉鎮市區的一個所謂的一個index那我今天要去旅遊我要去台東旅遊比如說我要去卑南鄉旅遊那我必須知道那邊的P2.5或者說那邊P2.5的來源它的污染源是什麼如果能夠更精確的話是不是可以導引我做一些生活上的改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5376.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5399.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
包括因為現在還是有一些這種微型的感測器的佔那個比較便宜那個就可以普測我們現在台灣大概還有1萬多個這種所謂的這個IoT的微型的這個空氣感測器那可以做但是那個其實他的變動性不確定性很高準確性所以那我們現在是兩個會去因為我們環境部標準的會跟他去做搭配所以未來我們可以嘗試的來試看看我們會來規劃一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5400.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5421.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那我希望說那個點多設一點不然有些人會覺得說他永遠都在參考屏東市的我永遠都是參考潮州的可是我明明就不是住在那裡可以嗎好 委員我們會來研究一下OK 那針對我們目前的我們台灣的地形跟一些季節的影響我相信這些都是很複雜的所以我希望我們有我們自己的大氣的一個模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5422.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5441.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
所以是不是應該更跨部會比如說國科會中研院來針對我們自己的空汙氣象學來做研究所以應該是要針對我們的科技專案計畫來針對我們台灣各個地區各個不同一個所謂的地形做全方位的一個模型的研究或是建制可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5441.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5467.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
包括委員因為我們去年那個NASA的飛機有兩趟次飛來台灣其實剛剛委員畫的那個圖就是那個計畫出來的結果那現在的確委員提到的國科會中央院我們正在準備想要進行這種跨部會的大型的甚至跟流行病學例如說我們的這個健康的資料庫相互的搭配那委員再給我們一點點時間規劃好之後再來貴院報告OK如果可以的話可以通知我嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5467.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5488.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
好可以就是有成果的話那因為我們有一個空瓶的白皮書大概在3月底4月初的時候會出來我們都認為說空瓶是致癌物大家也確信齁那你知道它不僅是致癌物它也可以縮短因為你已經離癌了還是暴露在這樣的污染物當中你會縮短它的生命 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5491.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5503.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
對對會那現在我們奇怪我們的小朋友也是生活在這樣的一個環境當中你知道對他的哪方面有些影響嗎對他各種的發育啦甚至說呼吸器官都會有潛在的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5504.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5529.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我們研究了一下我看了2024年所謂的environmental health的一個文獻他說在整體表現如果每一個單位他可以減少0.27那所謂的performance IQ的話可以減少0.39很多那如果是語言上的一個表現的話會減少0.20這是每一個單位也就是說如果我們現在是10個單位的話你就乘以10 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5530.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5556.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
所以就知道這24小時鋪了在那個環境當中小朋友的對他的智力對他的行為或者是語言的發展都有很大的影響所以我們一直在講說我們一直有在努力可是上次有看到有2000個固定污染源其實都一直在重複在發生而且是在距離不到學校500公尺的一個地方一直在重複的在採訪可是這些有在進步嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5558.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5582.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
這個其實是有的啦但是我必須也坦承跟委員報告有些其實做得還不夠因為我是覺得有些在學校附近的工廠他也缺乏跟鄰里之間的防護的意識這個我們是希望說未來跟學校家長會還有各方面我們今年會希望說建立幾個案例例如說屏東的獅子國中他旁邊就有一個立青廠他的這個下風書就是學校其實這個未來我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5582.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5597.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我想說還是衛福部經濟部跟教育部跟地方政府都應該我們審慎考慮我們學校桌尾或者是說我們養護機構啊或是醫院啊或者是這些我們需要特別照顧的這些亞健康的族群的所在地好不好好 可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5597.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5612.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
然後我看到了新竹市政府有一個不錯的就是空氣品質維護區也就是針對麻街兒童院附近的這個籌劃那就是說我們能不能有一個就是相對應的就是說你們去學習好的然後把這個匯集到全國這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5613.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5638.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
好 委員提的這個建議就是我們想做的因為我們全國現在有八十幾個空氣品質維護區未來如果可以把它擴大的話 現在有八十五個啦那未來如果擴大 像委員提到那些地方的話我覺得這個是對我們保護弱勢族群是有很大的幫助的OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝陸委員 謝謝部長 那請回那接下來請王玉敏委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5645.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5671.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
謝謝主席 我們是不是有請彭部長好 請部長王委員好部長好 部長你們在今天的報告裡面提到說我們PM2.5這個不良比例其實是有改善的全國的平均值你們比較起來是有在下降但是如果你看到我們的中南部 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5671.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5699.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
事實上你這個報告你提出來是一個平均值你如果看到中南部它距離我們的目標PM2.5維持在這個每立方公尺12維克其實差距很大你可以看到去年台灣嚴重的空污排名本島的前三名第一名是台南市第二名是高雄市第三名就是嘉義縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5701.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5721.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那這個一個台灣兩個世界你的報告呈現出來說哇大幅改善但是事實上在中南部的朋友沒有感覺啊空氣還是很糟啊特別是我們看到從2月25號一直到3月12號真的是全台的空氣拉警報 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5723.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5744.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
就是我自己出去我都覺得 天啊我這個呼吸 我每多呼吸一口氣我都覺得這個到底我的肺還可不可以承受得住幾乎是從北到南 因為我現在每個禮拜都到嘉義去然後我以為到嘉義之後會改善 台北這樣子嘉義會好一點沒有啊 也是灰濛濛的一片 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5745.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5772.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那我問一下部長 請問中南部這樣子的一個空污沒有改善 到底應該怎麼辦第一個我要問你的是 它的污染源到底來自於哪裡以嘉義縣來看的話 它本身的工廠沒有那麼多啊但為什麼嘉義縣的空氣這麼糟它的污染源 你們有比較細部的去分析說中南部這些污染源到底來自哪裡嗎它的上峰處是哪裡是從台中火力發電廠一路飄到嘉義縣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5775.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5801.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
報告委員其實我們環境部有針對各個縣市它的來源境內跟境外或是它的境內可能是自己縣境外可能是別的縣市好那我就問你嘉義縣它的空污的主要來源嘉義縣因為它本身並沒有大型的排放源它還是來自於例如說在秋冬的時候來自於上游例如說來自雲林或是彰化台中一起北部的這樣會一起下來都有可能都會累積都會經過嘉義也會跑到那個屏東去 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5802.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5825.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
所以大概就是從中部往下帶那如果是這樣子那就是中部這邊要改善嗎?污染源要改善嗎?但是也報告委員現在污染源的比例其實有很多種例如說固定污染源或是移動源就汽機車其實現在我們的汽機車的在以全台灣來講汽機車的污染源已經超過了這種固定的污染源了 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5826.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5841.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
這個就是我接下來要問你的我有聽到你剛剛在報告裡面說交通源已經大於這個工業源了那這樣針對移動污染源已經高於工業污染源那這個部分你們有對策嗎像今天也沒有交通部出席啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5843.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5858.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
你這是要跨部會的啊那你們有沒有跟交通部去商議說我們針對這個移動污染源我們到底再進一步我們可以怎麼樣有效的去降低我們具體的措施跟計畫是什麼坦白講現在我看不到這個部分你今天報告其實也沒有提 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5859.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5879.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
對 包委員這個是以台灣來說這是最困難一個案例那也跟委員報告我之前到韓國去他們遇到空污很嚴重的時候會發一個細胞簡訊那個簡訊裡面要大家不要開車到城裡面去那這個如果在台灣其實我相信大家反而是空污很嚴重我要開自己的車進去不要呼吸到空污這個是有很大的不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5879.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5903.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
所以我們會再想一下來協調一下如何在空污劑嚴重的時候這種所謂的移動的污染源如何讓它減少但是這個其實是跟民眾的生活是要改變是難度很高的也希望委員會來給我們支持好如果是這樣子的話我覺得你們應該好好去研議比較可行性的123的步驟是什麼而且必須進行社會溝通然後尋求大家的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5903.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5926.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
比如說這個時候已經變成是移動污染源高於固定污染源所以不得不採取部分的措施那可能考量到大家交通的便利性或者是說以這個台北他捷運這麼的發達他或許他可以優先實施你說中南部他可能沒有車就不能出門了那你就要搭配就是你有公共運輸啊你有大型的可以讓大家接駁他才有可能自己不開車啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5927.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5945.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
要不然你那樣子的一個做法可能也達不到所以我希望這個部分針對移動污染源你們也是要去處理好不好那另外一個你們的那個空氣品質監測跟預報中心你什麼時候要上路你說你們要多增加這樣的一個中心它對於解決空污真的會有幫忙嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5946.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5963.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
包委員其實他其實原來的人力還是在那邊只不過移到這個大氣師但是呢因為我們過去監測跟預報到最後應變這兩個不一樣的事在作業我們希望統合在一起你現在是整合成一個整合成一個預報中心在我們大氣師的下面所以他可能這個有效性會比較快 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5964.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5987.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
決策的方式會更快然後因為我們大氣司未來也要做各種的因為我們有一些空品的預報還有很多外圍的團隊我們希望把它統合在一起更有效率那你什麼時候要上路因為我們現在這個是調整整個環境部的組織法所以我們也報到院裡面的那再等一段時間那現在我們已經開始在初步的在整合了所以希望幾個月內會趕快成立 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5989.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5999.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
好我希望這個空瓶的改善必須持續因為對中南部的民眾真的覺得快受不了了另外一個我要問的是這個環境污染的問題我們發展風電我們當然贊成但是這個竟然出現風機葉片在高美濕地躺了10年沒有人發現也不需要處理那這樣的一個狀況在你們的環瓶裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6017.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6041.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
環評計畫書其實也沒有要求開發單位針對這一個風機他壽命到了他應該要怎麼樣的回收跟處理必須寫在他的計畫裡面也是不知缺乳所以這個案例一報導出來之後大家都覺得這個也太誇張了就是風機葉片廢棄在那邊躺了10年不聞不問然後也都沒有處理好像是無政府狀態那針對這個部分要怎麼改善這個部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6045.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6066.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
好 包委員這個部分台中市環保局已經進行的這個集合了他至於如何處罰這個我還沒有清楚但是他們已經去查核了我們未來會監督那第二個呢是其實這個東西是可以再回收的當然我必須坦承委員因為這個是很早期的這個張建有快20年了那個是第一代那時候環評各方面針對這個的處理都沒有很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6066.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6094.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那現在新的部分我們都會要求目的事業及主管機關一定要去做處理那台電呢其實現在他們也允諾他們會去做這個方面的重新的在去化的過程中去做準備那你這個什麼一個是這個什麼時候要清理完畢現在清理到什麼程度這個是我們會責成台電公司來進行這個清理完畢那他們有答應他們會來處理的多久要完成要限期完成啊這什麼時候要完成這個報告委員我們是不是請台電來回應好 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6097.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6122.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
報告委員我是台電專業總工程師溫環正那目前台中所發現的那個風機散落的葉片我們已經整理我們已經清理完畢了現在目前是放在我們的倉庫裡面暫置所以你們都已經移除了現場已經清理乾淨了清理完畢了那現場的土地有沒有受到污染沒有都沒有是環保單位應該要再去確定一下吧是有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6124.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6150.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
這個是台中市環保局相關的事項我們現場已經把它清理完畢了已經完全清理完畢了好 那另外一個我要追問那個就是未來在環評的部分因為我們現在風力發電其實有非常多場然後現在也面臨到有一些已經這個要到期了那所以這個部分到底現在在整個環境部的環評裡面你們的這一些有關於這一些風機它事後的這個回收 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6152.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6167.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
你們有沒有在環評計畫裡面去要求他們要提出他們的計畫報告委員是有的現在已經有了嗎已經有了已經有名文你們是寫在哪裡的他如果要除役或是說要延役這個其實要主動去提對要主動提這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6167.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6189.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那你們是在你們哪一個相關規定裡面已經有納進去你們有要求他在這一個後續的回收裡面要納進來報告委我們在環評審查的時候審查結論裡頭就有一條會要求他就是說在除疫前一年要提出他的除疫計畫而且規定他這個葉片啊機具都要朝回收方面去處理這個部分我們已經都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6190.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6215.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
都有明文要求嘛 現在每一場其實你們都提出要求只要是風力發電有經過環評 環評都有這樣子的要求研議的部分也會要求研議目前並不是我們環評的要求我們環評其實依照現在認定標準是新設機組才必須要那研議的部分呢研議的部分就要回歸到目的事業主管機關依他的那個管理電業法去管理他 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6216.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6232.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那為什麼這部分環境部不能研議都不需要經過你們只要經濟部就好我這邊跟委員報告一下我們環評的目的是等於是要減輕或預防他新設基礎造成的環境的影響所以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6233.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6257.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
它新設基礎的時候我們去考量它對環境的衝擊影響甚至它有沒有一些減輕的措施那至於它正式上路營運以後它是依照電業法是跟目的事業主管機關去申請所以後續的它的管理甚至是它的研議它是依照電業法去跟目的事業主管機關申請研議所以這個部分我們還是回歸到目的事業主管機關的法規去管理所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6258.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6262.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
所以你們這邊沒有有漏掉的我的意思是說他前期他可能並沒有提出這個計畫然後他又跟經濟部提出研議了然後之前他也沒有提出任何這個他的風機回收計畫有沒有這樣的一個案例我要求你們回去再清查一遍好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6274.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6299.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
應該是說有一些沒有經過環評的案子的話也許有可能因為它是很早期的時候它是跟直接就跟那個目的事業主管我知道但這個就會遇到像這一場台電同樣的問題嘛早期的沒有嘛等到他要除役的時候他可能就是會不會又是直接放著然後就不處理嘛那這一個部分我希望經由這一次的事件就是整個的漏洞我們都把它補起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6300.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6326.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
不能因為我們要發展風力發電但是他事後的善後這些回收都沒有做到位又造成另外一次的環境的污染這個我們就不允許好不好而且部長部長應該也會跟那個經濟部會協調就是後面一定會做好這相關的問題部長我希望你們跟經濟部要求這個不要漏洞產生好不好沒問題好謝謝謝謝王也謝謝部長那接下來請廖偉祥委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6342.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6343.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
謝謝主席,有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6356.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6378.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
部長好 那想要請教目前全台的這個規劃已經規劃七座天然氣接收站那包含台中港的這五街台塑的六街等新增的站體那暫時然而我們的政府好像從未針對全台接收站的總量進行一個上位的政策的環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6379.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6403.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
僅是以個案的方式審查所以導致各接收站的累積性的環境衝擊完全沒有納入評估那請問部長在沒有進行全台的這個全台性的政策環境的這個狀況下要如何確保這個七座的接收站不會對於我們西部的沿海生態系譬如說白海豚、珊瑚郊區造成不可逆的破壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6404.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6419.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
因為部長我們台灣的西部海岸大約有460公里就有7座天然氣的接收站平均每65公里平均每65公里就有一座天然氣接收站那依照 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6421.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6448.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
2024年這個GGIT的資料全球興建中及規劃興建天然氣的接收站大概目前是只有中國大陸印度和越南比我們多那換算下來我們現在應該算是全球的天然氣接收站密度最高的國家所以想要請教部長或者是我們經濟部的代表全球數據在這裡難道我們還是要繼續不用依照目前環評法第26條進行政策環評嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6451.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6474.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
因為政策環評需要目的事業主管機關跟我們提出那我環境部無法對這個直接提對那你認為是不是應該要如果說因為這個以美轉氣是我們過去這個政府的這個政策這個是既定的政策沒關係部長你覺得是不是目前進行到這個階段雖然目的事業主管機關沒有提出那以你環境部的角度你是否認為應該要進行這個所謂的政策環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6477.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6506.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
包委員其實如果各種的例如說太陽能的發展能源的發展如果有一個政策環評讓社會可以有充分的共識我們當然歡迎但是也非您支持嘛對不對其實您支持應該要但是我們也支持這種以煤轉氣因為其實我們過去燃煤其實造成通貨比較嚴重但是部長這是兩件事嘛我剛剛問的是兩件事嘛你不能問A答B嘛我就問說你支不支持你認不認為這個事情已經讓我們台灣算是西部海岸我們的密度最高啊接收器的密度最高啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6506.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6533.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
天然氣接收站的密度最高是不是應該要你是不是支持應該要做所謂的政策環評啊報告委員因為還有一個也跟我們報告像新加坡大概95%也都是燒天然氣啊沒關係部長我想要問的就是依照我國的狀況啊我跟你說政策政府政策環境影響評估作業辦法的第三條規定下列有這個政策有影響環境之餘者應實施環境影響評估嘛那其中第五款的內容可否請我們部長唸出來啊這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6540.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6566.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
這個目前齁如果是政策環評推動這些東西其實當然能源政策是一項啦但是政策環評是一個事前的溝通他並對於這個案是沒有強制力的所以部長但是問題就是這上面其實寫的還是贏不是得喔所以我意思就是說如果我們經濟部鴕鳥型態環境部也不管兩個部會都是鴕鳥型態的話那這樣算不算行政怠惰因為你剛剛也說你覺得應該要去溝通這件事情而且應該做這樣的政策環評嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6568.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6583.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
如果說有更多的溝通當然是好事但是這個不會影響到個別的影響因為政策環比我覺得會耶為什麼以五街為例喔台電規劃在台中港外面就是現在有這個台灣媽祖與寶玉聯盟已經提出白海豚誤闖 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6584.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6603.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
港區致死案例顯示既有四街還有台中港擴建與五街的疊加效應可能超出生態的承載力所以我剛剛講的就是因為目前為止我們現行都是逐岸審查模式可能沒有辦法去評估區域性的生態衝擊尤其是多個戰體發生的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6605.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6632.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所以另外經濟部宣稱七階接收站完工後天然氣進口量將從2000萬噸提升至3900萬噸以滿足非核家園政策下燃氣發電佔比50%的目標但是這也不是我講的中興大學也研究指出若再生能源進度延宕可能過度依賴天然氣將使接收站的負載率長期超標也反正所謂供氣風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6634.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6658.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
所以我想要請教就是我剛說的就是你是逐案逐案的審可是你並沒有針對整件事情對環境的衝擊有一個更上位的所謂的政策環評所以我也想要請教一下那如果七街我們經濟部的代表七街接收站的數量設定是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提請經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6662.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6682.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
報告委員那有關這個天然氣接收站的這個興建那確實是依照我們這個能源轉型的這個政策的這個目標去去做這個相關的接收站的一個興建那所以這個那我想要請問那如果如果再生能源沒有達到36%的目標的話是否需要再增建接收站那請問要達標如果請問要達標的話要擴建多少才夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6688.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6701.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
目前我們天然氣發電的這個佔比是以50%的這個目標為是啦所以我剛剛就問說你們是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提然後去設定這七個七座 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6704.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6731.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
欸再生能源部分是另外再生能源大概20%的這個目標沒有反過來講就是說如果再生能源沒有達標那你不夠你會不會要再增加所謂的天然氣的部分各有各的一個目標要去努力去實施對嘛那你還是沒回答我問題嘛所以我要講的事情就是部長啊就是如果沒有經過政策環評那只是為了達到數字而盲目開發又沒辦法說出到底可不可以達標然後說兩邊都要努力達標那最後你沒有達標的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6732.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6759.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那對於我們環境的衝擊會是什麼對於這個政策的環評有沒有去做一個全方位的檢視我覺得這就是我很想表達的所以我是想要說如果我們還是不面對不去做這件事情的話民進黨現在執政你們現在執政的做法就是是不是就各個突破我就單一個點單一個點點來看那這樣子可能真的會忽視掉整個政策對於我們環境的衝擊如果整體來看的因為它可能有疊加的效應嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6760.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6775.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
所以因為如果不做的話那是不是這個評估作業辦法也可以就廢掉不要用了所以我要講的事情是要請部長認真考慮不只是五接而是全台的這個接收站跟儲氣廠的累積性的環評報告跟總量管制的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6777.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6796.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
不要讓我們台灣的海岸淪為天然氣接收站的這個競逐場或讓整個西部海岸成為能源的犧牲帶我們希望可以有一個讓社會更安心知道說你們在做整個所謂這個能源轉型政策的時候它到底整體對於我們的社會對於我們的環境會有多大的衝擊部長我要表達這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6798.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6827.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
可以嗎好謝謝委員的意見喔那我們會納入參考因為這個其實目前的整個天然氣以氣轉煤是我們這個目前的基地的一個政策啦那至於說五接因為我們沒有收到這個他們的經濟部提出來所以經濟部應該要提出來或是你應該去溝通他們提出來吧是吧因為不然你環境部這不就是對於環境部很重要的主要業務嗎你整個能源政策或是整個政策的這個環境評估這應該是對於我們臺灣國人也很重要的一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6828.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6849.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
對 鮑委員其實以這個使用把這個煤淘汰掉我相信這個對我們整個環境我完全是贊同的嘛但是我的意思就是說因為你這個接收站你的規劃到底對我們衝擊有多少然後以及你現在再生能源沒有達標的話那你的天然氣接收站是不是要再增加這一切都可能對於我們環境評估有不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6850.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6876.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
結果這個部分我就是要提醒部長我覺得你們真的要認真考慮去做這個所謂的政策環評比較上位的政策環評好嗎好謝謝委員的建議謝謝部長另外一件事情第二件事就是環境部日前有公布我們去年的空氣品質的監測結果截至去年11月底全台平均2.5的平均濃度為12.5微克立方公尺所以較前年的13.7有所改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6877.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6884.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
但是目前為止我有看到環團在質疑目前全台的法定手動PM2.5策戰僅有31處而自動策戰有78處 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6889.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6917.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那環境部卻排除了自動測站的數據只接受手動站的數據而根據環團的分析這個檢視全台的自動測站PM2.5的資料台澎金馬所有的空品區PM2.5的年均值實際是14.2微克地方公尺高於環境部公布的數字也特別在高雄全台十大空品最糟的自動監測站中有八站都在高雄 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6918.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6933.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那官方手動測站顯示17.4微克而自動測站顯示是18.23微克所以這個問題就是這樣部長為何不使用所有可用的監測數據來呈現完整的空氣品質的圖像 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6935.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6952.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
這不就是會讓人家質疑說是不是為了要讓我們PM2.5的數值被低估讓環境部可以選擇性的使用這些數據有意想要美化空氣污染的嚴重度誤導公眾的認知好 包委員我是學這個的我可以跟委員說明第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6953.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6979.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
如果我已經在家裡面洗澡的時候你放一個PM2.5你洗澡的時候馬上就超標因為水氣會讓這個小粒子變大所以其實我們這個為什麼要變手動它會把這個水氣濾掉才是真實PM2.5的危害謝謝部長 謝謝你講到 我知道你們環境部曾經表示過自動測站容易受水氣空氣中的鹽分影響所以手動測站能夠修正污染物素值的偏差 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6980.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7003.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
但這也讓人家質疑一件事是不是也是一種校正回歸的手段但是退一步說你如果覺得自動策戰這麼沒有用這麼有可能有很多誤差的話那為什麼環境部還要持續投入大量的資金升級PM2.5的自動監測設備這不就自相矛盾嗎如果你剛剛講的這些東西都不可靠那為什麼要投資這不是很好笑嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7004.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7021.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
既然不可靠如果他又可靠的話不可靠你為什麼要投資那可靠的話你為什麼又要拒絕使用他的這個數據嗎包委員手動跟自動在國際上有它一個標準現在大概都是以手動為主那自動的話為什麼還要增設因為其實它有一個趨勢型的有意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7022.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7034.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
而且我們透過這個手動跟自動的這個所謂的這個修正之後其實會更真實到結果但是手動跟自動這兩個數值其實我們在應變裡面我們會同步來看但是它代表是不一樣的意義的 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7035.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7055.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那你公布的數據你還是只選擇用手動測試沒錯那這樣子是真的會讓國人比較安心嗎但是那個是國際上認可標準的數字就很像說有一家國外公司他公布說我們台灣的PM2.5的數值跟他就不一樣他那個是屬於自動型的而且很便宜的那這個反而會造成很大的誤解 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7055.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7083.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
所以你投入自動的這個監測工具是有其他的使用目的就對了對 兩個都可以同時看但是我相信未來的話自動的設備如果可以把環境或水氣的因素濾除的話其實它會更準確的這個還要等可能要再等一段時間所以你們現在投資的就是希望說這個新的東西是可以更加準確所以未來你們才可以採納對 兩個到時候我相信兩個應該都有一個交叉點那個時候我們就不用了好 謝謝喔那簡單來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7085.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7105.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
謝謝部長那我們還是要最後提醒一下我希望部長這邊可以真實的呈現數據我認為應該要誠實呈現數據然後誠實面對我們問題還要務實解決我們的問題因為包含你剛剛也有提到所謂能源結構的問題到底可不可以達成這些也都有關於我們今天討論的題目謝謝部長好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝廖委員 謝謝部長接下來請邱正軍委員來做選打 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7112.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7115.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
那教育委員宣導完之後 我們就休息十分鐘謝謝好 我們有請我們部長 黃部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7130.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7151.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
邱委員好部長好我看了我們環境部的書面報告注意到2月27號西半部品質我們的空品持續惡化那環境部曾經成立中央第二級空氣污染防治指揮中心並召集我們地方環保局等單位召開應變會議而且協調經濟部台電公司進行協和邁遼台中 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7159.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7184.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
興達電廠降載減排那降載總共降載了11億3199萬度的這個電量對嗎對那我想請問部長去年一年曾經成立第二級或者是第一級防制指揮中心有幾次沒有因為大概三年已經沒有三年多沒有成立這個也就是說去今年才發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7185.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7213.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
比較嚴重的狀況這麼汙染這麼大以前是怎麼樣以前是我們的機器不好還是怎麼樣沒有就是剛好這次的事件比較嚴重那另外一個是我們AQI有沒有查一下什麼原因會造成這個主要是那天還是一個氣象因素因為吹東風然後整個西半部的整個我們最主要是為AQI加嚴所以加嚴讓我們其實AQI很容易達到這個不良等級那第二個是那天是氣象因素吹東風 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7214.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7236.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
所以這三年來就沒有成立過辦公室?沒有沒有 大概三年多所以我們也很慎重的來成立這個應變中心那我們台灣企業用電需求越來越高如果是成立空氣污染防治指揮中心的時候降載用電的需求產生衝突的時候是聽你的還是要聽經濟部的? |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7238.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7250.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我們是一起協同作業啦協同作業當然我們不能讓所有的全台灣都不要用電所以我們還是會要協同作業互相協調來完成這個事情我請經濟部的代表來一下好不好國營署副市長還有產化署營運署你好 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7266.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7287.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
前年我國那個火電發電佔比是82%那核能發電佔佔6.3%嘛對吧那現在我們準備核能要歸零那我想請問一下這部分的電力未來要用哪一種電來補 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7289.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7313.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
核能因為我們的那個能源轉型就是大概是減煤增氣,斬綠跟非核就是核能電廠接觸之後我們就是用這個我們的這個增加我們天然氣的發電然後增加再生能源的發電然後減少這個燃煤的發電目標是這樣子然後占比大概是燃氣是50%燃煤30%還有再生能源20% |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7314.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7333.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
你說燃氣是50 50 58然後呢然後藍莓30藍莓30對那什麼時候你藍莓還要一直用啊還有你準備火力發電還是要繼續要使用火力發電其實包括那個藍莓跟燃氣都是火力發電對我的意思說你這兩個加起來就幾%了80對將近80%你認為這個不需要改嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7337.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7360.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這個部分就是說增加了天然氣是因為可以減少CO2的排放大概是以這個 但是造成的那個汙染呢天然氣的汙染是比較沒有這麼嚴重那所以 我看天然氣的那個CO2的那個那個IPC 比藍莓減少很多對啊 它是差得這樣一個820然後一個是490對吧 這兩個還是算是高的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7368.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7391.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
你認為這些一直長期在使用這個狀態的時候我們對我們的國人的健康不會受到影響嗎我們當然是希望能夠盡量減少這個污染的排放包括CO2排放因為它轉成碳排放也是荼毒人民的肺我覺得是這樣那我請問那個電力公司台電你們一度電買一度電就賠一度 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7393.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7397.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
合適賠了兩千多億也還掛在帳上嘛對不對不敢銷帳目前你們都沒有專業堅持我們讓我們執政黨隨便這樣宰割那我想請問一下現在是要漲電價是嗎目前還沒有現在電價審議委員會還沒有召開還沒有召開我是聽到那這個部分要推給立法院來扛這個責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7421.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7449.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
報告委員沒有我們是尊重3月份的電價審議委員會來決定所以我覺得啦你們該有的這個專業的這個判斷我覺得你們還是要提出來該講話的時候還是要講話這個才對你的專業來負責嘛對不對是好那我們請回那我請教部長我看到你們要成立空氣品質監測與預報中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7451.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7467.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
是這樣嗎對對對那我想說我想請問一下那剛剛講的我們剛剛我們剛剛有講到我們有成立第二級的這個空氣污染防治指揮中心那跟這個東西真的現在你要成立的這個中心有沒有有沒有不一樣的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7468.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7490.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
因為我們過去的空氣品質的監測跟預報都在我們監製師來做那因為我們要強化AI的運用所以我們把監製師改名叫做環境科技與資訊師他強化AI數位治理的應用所以這個不是再增加一個部門不是不是我們把它移過來移到大氣師裡面因為大氣師要負責應變那應變呢從監測預報到應變把它整合起來就是單位換名稱 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7494.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7516.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
當位換名稱 然後整合人力所以並沒有說額外增加新的預算或人力所以 這個是要成立這個是因為我們自己在專業務上的考量對 業務的考量不是什麼氣候變遷委員會開會的時候決定的嗎不是不是不是啦 對對對好 那我想請問一下那做了這個之後 檢測中心之後如果現在空氣品質超標 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7518.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7524.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
然後呢然後這個中心他現在從上游的監測到預報到最後他們大氣勢的應變都會再統合一個單位來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7528.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7553.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
等於它就有它有跨部會的一個功能現在已經有了但是我們希望它的這個功能性還有人員的這個培訓可以更好讓它大一點點一起協同作業超標之後我們要怎麼辦超標之後例如說好假設有二級就由我們司長來召集我們環境部還有各個縣市環保局一起來做那如果一級很嚴重的就是有環境部跟邀集各個部會一起來做這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7554.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7570.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那有沒有計算過這個成本我們這個經費要花多少錢這個都在我們原有的預算並沒有增加然後我想重點空氣污染最大的來源當然就是發電不然你也不會叫台電來降載對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7572.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7599.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那我想目前看到的我們看到民進黨執政快要十年了能源政策是民進黨政府始終不敢面對的問題拿著廢核的神主牌搖擺不定這個到後來我覺得對台灣來講是非常傷害非常的大你長期的使用火力發電或者這個火力發電造成了我們老百姓的健康影響是非常大的我覺得部長你應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7601.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7617.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
盡早來解決這樣的一個問題我不敢講說你一定要把這個核能恢復那但是至少要找到一個更好的變通方法當然也不是無條件的一直用這個綠能來替代這個電您認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7621.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7647.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
包委員其實我也坦承說我們剛剛有一個圖表說我們的污染源來源裡面這種固定污染源譬如說電力排放失業其實我們移動源已經超過固定源了所以其實這個也是交通也是我們一個努力的目標那剛剛委員提到的能源政策其實包含燃氣跟燃煤它的燃氣的雖然有排放二氧化碳但是比燃煤少很多所以其實二氧化碳其實它並不會對人體造成直接的影響而且它的空污量會減化 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7649.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7672.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那我們現在如果要發展綠能或是新的能源在這個之前氣還是一個必要的一個轉圜那當然這個部分要多久目前如果以我們在規劃這個淨零的路徑來看的話當然是希望說在2030年例如說燃氣50之後慢慢慢慢的往下降那這個降的話2050年它會更好可能只剩下20%左右當然會是更好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7673.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7693.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
還要那麼久啊 你們這個還要二三十年欸對 這個氣 因為氣開始蓋它用它就要二十多年的一個時間所以當然 但是報告委員其實氣大多數是國家它在面對轉型的時候是一個過渡型的一個能源因為我們現在的再生能源並沒有那麼快那麼順利的能夠可以起來所以你們覺得還是覺得說現在廢核是對的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7697.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7716.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
我沒有說是對但是委員我在當時算淨零入境的時候其實也發現到核能如果要真的啟動的話面臨到法令要修然後還要幫安全檢查核廢料的處理還有研議也要一些費用所以其實這個都是我無法無法去預期預知的所以你有考慮過同步來做這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7718.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7734.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
目前以我的專業來看,我當然要經濟部或是河安會來處理,但是以我的專業來看的話,的確是非常的困難在台灣,有一點挑戰。但是我覺得你那個時間點拉太長,我們國人健康非常重要,絕對不能拖吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7737.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7763.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
對但是委員這個如果說將核能如果非核家園這個如果要研議的話核二加核三就是300億度的電跟我們目前未來國家需要的電力恐怕好啦我還是覺得部長您發揮你的專業該爭取的時候就要爭取好不好好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝邱委員謝謝部長我們現在要休息10分鐘休息10分鐘之前提醒部長這個CO2的監測是自動而手動 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7768.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7795.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
自動自動比較不準樓下教育委員會應該是700我們是教育委員會的double再多一點點一般超過1000就開始昏睡其他的委員都8分鐘就離開了你跟我在這邊要待到結束所以是不是請部長趕快應變一下好不好好,休息10分鐘,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7806.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7814.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8425.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8430.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
好 休息時間到 我們現在正式開會繼續開會 接下來請圖權級委員來做詢問好 謝謝 請我們彭部長還有請一下我們衛福部的副署長衛福部哪位副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8458.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8479.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那我先請問一下我們衛福部請問一下我們目前我們十大癌症我們衛福部我問一下那個有關癌症的問題好那有關我們目前十大癌症我們殘年冠軍的是哪一個癌症 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8481.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8485.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
委員你好 我們正式請國民健康署這邊來做相關的回答對 我們十大癌症 目前我們全國十大癌症然後蟬聯冠軍的是哪一個癌症 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8504.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8527.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那個肺 肺癌對啊喔 肺癌好 對啦因為這個之前大腸癌嘛那現在這幾年都是肺癌已經纏連我們十大癌症的冠軍那其實我們根據我們目前一些科學數據的驗證喔肺癌也跟我們空氣品質有絕對的關係嘛有直接的關係 對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8531.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8550.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那所以我們可以知道像我們有一個基因專家基因醫師張嘉明他也做過一個科學的報告也就是說他針對他們研究PM2.5跟肺腺癌的增加有密不可分的關係這部分我們衛福部這邊應該有掌握這個訊息吧有有嗎那 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8557.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8573.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
據我們這個報告有看到那我們針對肺癌的部分可是肺癌雖然跟我們抽菸也有直接的關係可是我們發現到有一個數據這裡面有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸時的這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8575.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8592.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
有沒有掌握這個訊息委員針對肺癌的部分目前其實發生的原因就是抽菸嘛然後跟空氣汙染還有這個子夜的暴露另外就是家族史對啊所以空氣品質嘛就是抽菸還有我們空氣品質有絕對的關係所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8595.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8618.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
我們經過我們發現這肺癌裡面居然有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸三分之一有抽菸死所以我們也可以從這個證明我們空氣品質對於我們肺癌有絕對直接的關係這一部分應該沒有問題吧它是其中的原因之一對嘛好那接下來我再問一下我們彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8619.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8643.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
因為這部分只是請我們衛福部來證明因為現在這癌症就是我們十大癌症已經纏連冠軍而且絕對跟我們空氣品質有絕對關係已經經過專家學者有科學數據的顯示那空氣品質當然抽菸還有我們PM2.5等等都是影響的因素那肺癌 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8643.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8668.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
肺癌患者裡面有三分之二是完全沒有抽菸所以我們也可以合理的推斷這三分之二就是因為我們空氣品質所造成的這部分部長應該同意吧同意不過委員這個空氣品質有室內跟室外例如說我們家裡面的很多的生活習慣大概佔了我們八成的時間都在室內所以室內跟室外不一樣但是我們有 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8670.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8683.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
數據顯示嘛就是PM2.5跟肺腺癌有密不可分的關係所以這部分也讓我們希望我們環境部是我們環境最高的主管機關我們衛福部可以先請下去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8685.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8699.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那所以我們今天也是討論減碳的部分所以也凸顯了我們減碳是勢在必行因為這跟我們國人健康有絕對直接的關係那我們在今年初一月23號我們賴總統有召開第三次氣候變遷委員會的會議我記得我在去年的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8706.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8729.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那時候我們彭部長在8月23號也曾經講過在2032年我們檢探目標要往40%邁進這部分我記得彭部長你有說過吧就是我個人希望說未來2032年的時候我可以到那樣的目標但是我們後來召集各個部會得到這樣新的數字所以本來彭部長是希望能夠達到40%那後來 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8732.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8755.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
跟我們部會氣候變遷委員會討論之後後來新的目標是降低的嗎對就是說這個其實是因為當時我的理想我希望2032可以到40那我記得那時候李遠哲李院長他也希望說50所以我們後來但是我必須跟委員報告那個其實是我們會籍的環境部會籍的各個部會提出的減碳計畫最後得出這樣的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8757.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8770.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
所以我記得我上次會期也有跟彭部長討論過因為我們現在的能源政策再加上我們彭部長的減碳目標我們覺得這個是背道而馳的因為我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8772.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8790.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
所發電的幾乎它的碳排量都是非常高那我們的能源政策碳排量都非常高那我們現在能源政策碳排量一直在增加結果我們環境部減碳的目標又一直定的那麼高所以我們說這好像是背道而馳嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8791.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8807.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
包委員因為其實燃氣跟燃煤它的排炭係數不一樣所以我們未來這幾年減碳其實很大一部分就是燃氣燃煤換成燃氣所以這個其實是有效果的那另外一個就是說燃氣它的污染也比燃煤少很多所以目前這個階段是對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8808.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8832.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那當然我知道委員一定說希望關於核能的部分不過核能也跟委員報告其實真的要做的話其實我自己在算的時候也有問過台電或等等他包含要修正法規還有核安檢查核廢料的處理其實那個都不是我環境部可以來主管來推動的事情它的變數是非常多的在這個地方也跟委員報告所以我相信部長對這些也了解我們現在發電我們現在發電 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8836.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8860.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
結構最大的就是第一個就是燃氣嘛第二個就是燃煤再來就是再生能源然後再來核電跟燃油這個也是台電的數據那可是如果說以我們現在發電的方式你看那個燃煤發電最多燃氣發電最多可是你看它的碳排的係數它的碳排係數都是最高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8861.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8890.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
所以針對這部分剛剛彭部長也有講所以我一直認為說以我們環境部這部分來講是不是核能發電其實應該還是要以環境部的立場應該是要考慮核電來納入對於我們減碳是不是比較有幫助包委員其實環境部唯一的主管就是說如果核電它的要除液還有或是說它的幹式儲存槽它需要環評這個是我們可以主管的 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8891.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8919.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那當然如果以減碳的話這個核能它的確是一個相對於低碳排的一個能源但是它也會有它的這個壓力存在所以這個部分呢還是要讓經濟部或是能源主管單位他們來送這個相關的規劃給我們但是以目前我那時候算我們淨零入境的情況下的確它是一個選項但是它後面的包含的未來未知的費用還有核廢料還有安全性等等其實有很多的變數在那個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8920.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8923.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
好那我請問一下我們經濟部今天有代表來喔好再麻煩一下那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8936.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8964.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
我們大家全球都在發展AI那麼也知道AI它的用電量劇增那針對這部分用電量劇增我們要因應我們AI的時代那可是如果我們要達到減碳要環境保育又要讓我們這用電劇增我們來應付這個用電的問題那我們經濟部這部分有沒有什麼方法來處理好 跟委員報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8967.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8989.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
我先回答待會再請我們能源署的代表再做一個說明我想基本上我們對於這個AI的用電會增加部分我們已經有先事先規劃有一些發電量的這個部分是有配合除了這個以外供給面的部分是有在規劃那在那個減 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8991.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9009.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這個節電的部分我們也在推這個深度節能讓這個我們的用電量是不是可以相對的可以減少我們的這個用電那能源署這邊是在做一個補充那以我們現在這樣子的方式我們現在這樣子的能源政策我們有辦法應付AI這麼大的用電量嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9010.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9036.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
跟委員報告我們能源署每一年都會做電力供需的一個評估那AI的部分我們的產發署會跟業者做一個深切的瞭解半導體的產業我們也會把它估計去每一年大概在六月之前我們就會做一個供需報告所以AI的估計我們其實是有規劃進去的那整體的用電其實跟委員報告應該是沒有問題的 您放心 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9038.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9063.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
所以基本上我們現在要應付AI的用電巨增然後我們又要達到我們環境部我們要減碳又要環境保育等等問題你看連AIT美國在台協會鼓勵人處長他都有講我們台灣是高度仰賴外國進口能源那美國是最大的能源出口國那他也提供天然氣提供再生能源當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9065.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9084.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
他現在好像也說他能夠提供最新的核能技術來支援我們那我們以這幾個前提之下我請問一下彭部長那如果這樣你的看法如何我們要兼顧要減碳要環境保育然後又要達到我們用電量 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9085.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9109.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
達到AI這些的用電量矩陣那環境部的立場是怎麼樣報告委員環境部的立場就是更多這種低碳對環境好的能源我們都歡迎不過也跟委員報告我也關注美國新的核能的發展的動態例如說他們的新的SMR那個New Scale的核電廠他們已經追加預算到105億美金所以其實他只有發大概只有400多MW |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9110.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9124.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
所以其實這個的費用是很難估計的如果未來國際上像美國他們有更好更新的已經有商業化運轉的我們當然會歡迎但是目前台灣我們還是只能靠自己去做一個轉型的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9126.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9153.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那所以其實之前我們也做過以核氧綠的公投那有六成的民眾是支持那我們也現在看到其實我們整體燃煤燃氣再生能源其實他的發電量整體進度上我們看起來也是落後的所以其實這個新的核能技術如果能夠提供又達到我們之前公投以核氧綠的結果然後也可以讓我們減碳也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9153.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9172.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
讓我們的環境保育工作可以做得更好那這一部分我倒覺得是不是我們可以來考量一下這一部分而且新的核能政策整體來講人家現在來講目前核能也是最好的綠能那這一部分彭部長你也贊同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9173.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9202.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
核能不是綠能核能是乾淨的能源可是目前來講它整體來講它碳排量應該是非常非常低但是其實也報告委員我對核能並沒有什麼任何立場我很務實在看但是現實就在眼前因為它在國際上新的核能發展的技術費用非常的高而且還不確定那另外一個是研議的成本也可能在這個裡面所以委員如果你們可以解決我當然這個是樂觀其成但是這個壓力會非常的大 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9203.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9224.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
所以其實以目前來講我們姑且不談我們目前的能源政策不講政治上的問題目前看起來如果這整體新的能源政策目前看起來如果說要應付這AI的時代用電矩增要達到減碳要達到環保整體來講目前這新的核能技術核能來講其實是一個蠻好的選項 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9226.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9242.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
包委員我們目前規劃2035的減碳目標是沒有把核能放進去的那當然未來如果有任何的改變或新技術當然是可以幫助但是我也特別提醒委員因為後面的成本還有引發性的這個社會上的這個不同的意見應該蠻大的也請委員都可以多考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9243.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9266.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
好那我也希望我們大家可以來務實推動這個能源的轉型我們要應付我們的用電量要兼顧這減碳要兼顧環保我覺得這部分我們大家像我們經濟部環境部應該針對這部分我們可以好好的思維一下怎麼應付我們後面所要面臨用電量巨增要兼顧減碳環保的問題好謝謝謝謝圍恩謝謝好謝謝圖緯謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9274.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9290.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
好 接下來請王正旭委員來做選擇好 謝謝主席還是邀請彭部長還有衛福部的市長 卓市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9300.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9315.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
謝謝部長今天早上告訴我們有關於每一年發揮100億以上的這個空屋的這些治理得到一些好的成果那當然我們還持續希望能夠有機會更改善我們也了解這個每一天每 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9316.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9343.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
時間都需要再呼吸這個空氣的品質對我們來講真的非常非常的重要不過今天的重點會把它放在相對是在室內的這些品質空氣的品質的部分我們也知道在民國100年的時候我們就通過室內空氣品質管理法這部法律那在101年就頒布了室內空氣品質標準那剛剛趙偉很關心那到底我們這個室內品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9344.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9360.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
在9項指標裡面有沒有符合標準我們發現的確我在9點28分的時候注意到我們的CO2濃度是1495那現在是1544那在一個小時之前更高到1700 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9361.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9385.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
那這個到底我們怎麼去感受這種品質的問題那我們也知道事實上目前有列管的場所包括有1186個地方是透過這個室內品質在做管控包括政府機構大學院校還有運動健身場所當然還包括醫療機構跟很多的社福機構那我們所看到的部分就是會擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9387.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9402.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
尤其在COVID那段時間裡面大家對於這個室內的空調的部分呢是有非常高的要求希望能夠避免到室內的時候會因為這個空氣品質的關係而造成的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9404.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9421.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我們看到就是其實在台北市他們曾經在106年的時候就針對醫院室內的空氣品質超標的時候有一些處罰的案例那到了去年113年他們也針對不管是百貨公司或者是醫療機構去做了稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9424.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9444.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那也發現有一些醫院呢是有檢測超標的部分那這一部分當然我們也了解這個包括像我們剛剛所處理的措施就是讓這個空氣流通會更好不管是把這個窗戶打開啦或者是加強這個空調換氣的部分那這一部分將來有沒有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9446.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9466.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
尤其是醫院的部分能夠透過兩個部會來看如何有一些專案的改善或者是必須要做哪一些措施才能夠讓醫院的這個空氣品質也能夠達到一些我們所期待的標準那這部分不知道部長或者是基深這邊有沒有什麼意見想要來做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9466.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9493.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
好 報告委我先報告一下其實我們前一陣子去年跟委員報告我們主力徵集預算幫醫院做節能的部分當然我知道長庚醫院做的是最好的那有些醫院也在跟進當中那我們也媒合了受險業者能夠來進行這個投資就結合ASCO在做那這個現在在進行當中希望很快的就有幾件案例可以成真那因為這個是公營的他需要加額外的資金很多私營的他都願意來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9494.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9503.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
當他做這個ASCO節能的時候其實這個空瓶就會跟著去改善因為這個其實是很好的一個理由那另外一個是醫療的部分我們是不是請衛福部來做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9506.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9534.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
確實我們在醫院的部分我們有配合這個環境部這邊推動一些計畫所以我們也針對醫院近鄰的這個部分我們陸續有做一些相關的宣導跟推動相關的計畫所以這個都會牽扯到經費所以很期待兩個部會可以有更緊密的結合讓這個經費除了去做監測以外也能夠讓這些經費能夠落實到在不同的這個場域來進行改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9535.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9551.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我們目前經驗是民間的醫院、私立的醫院做的反而比公立的醫院來得積極因為公立的醫院要編列經費然後他有預算上的編定的限制還要公開招標所以對於ASCO的限制相對的就會多一點點所以我們現在在突破這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9552.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9570.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
好 那就麻煩部長還有衛福這邊繼續努力謝謝那再下一個問題就是兒童醫院設立空品維護區的部分早上委員也有也有委員提過這個問題那目前我們了解在新竹 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9570.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9587.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
有成立的最新的一家兒童醫院那目前已經全台有將近六到即將成立甚至會到七家的兒童醫院那我們也了解這個兒童醫院大部分來就醫的當然都是以兒童為主那空氣品質維護區變成是一個很需要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9588.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9616.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
發生出來一個特定的區域那新竹市政府他們宣稱說新竹馬街的兒童醫院的發射呢是首次有這樣的這個要求讓這個品質可以更為穩定將來有沒有機會所有的兒童醫院都有這樣的這個維護區的這個設立不知道目前環境部或者是我們的衛福部有沒有這樣的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9618.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9646.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
報告委員能夠讓這種所謂的弱勢族群或是很敏感的族群能夠保護這是我們的目標那目前全台灣大概21個縣市大概有85個公民維護區這個都是地方環保局來做制定的那其實有的效果還不錯所以我們現在其實或許委員我們今年度可能我們跟衛福部一起合作來針對一些這種兒童醫院我們先來試行討論看看那再跟委員做報告這個的確是一個很好的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9646.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9671.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
是因為的確依照空污法第40條這是地方政府的要擬定區劃分出這個空氣品質維護區不過環境部是要核定才能夠公告所以我們希望是不是兩個部會協同這個地方政府在三個月裡面給我們一個書面報告那我們看這個進度如何可以可以謝謝委員那我們就麻煩繼續努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9672.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9699.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那再過來就是有關你這個國中小附近的空屋的部分那這部分也麻煩那個教育部是不是也有我們的官員在現場當然早上委員也有人請教過這個國中小附近的這個空屋的部分是跟這個學校附近它的一些經濟發展或者是一些相關的這個工業或者是其他場區的 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9700.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9712.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
影響是有關係這個部分我們也看到有一些媒體發現說全台172家的國中或國小他的附近的工廠在近五年裡面有違規 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9714.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9739.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
違反公務法被這個裁法的規定那另外也注意到說這個工廠都相距不到500公尺那這部分將來如何針對這個可能影響的這些兒童們做長期健康的追蹤或者是在教育部目前有沒有哪一些方案在協助讓這樣的這個違規可以減少同時對兒童的保護是有再加強的 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9740.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9754.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
跟委員報告一下我們部裡有那個健康促進方案那這部分我會請我們部裡的國教署來把這部分就是這172學校看是不是可以把它做一個長期的追蹤這部分我回去會請國教署來做一個處理謝謝委員關心這議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9758.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9785.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
報告委員其實這個東西因為台灣很地小人稠所以不是只有學校很多的民眾也住在工廠的旁邊所以這個問題應該是社區學校跟工廠之間要有一個更好的互動機制讓大家一起來改才有辦法那我們今年會努力找幾個案例來推看看因為其實有些地方我們看到有些地方經過大家的努力不是抗議啦是努力啦協調之後終於成功了 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9785.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9807.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
是我們其實是期待社區的各方面的能力可以加進來而不是說純粹用抗疫的方式去改善而已那最後一個問題就是有關於教室室內的品質空品的改善因為我們也知道這個教室裡面現在很多兒童包括是幼兒園或者是小學都會 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9808.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9834.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
大概很長的時間在教室裡面那台大醫院蘇教授他們也做了相關的研究發現說這個室內換氣不足的話呢在過去那個COVID那段時間其實真的是會影響這個新冠病毒這個傳染的風險而且高達三倍之多所以他們也建議說在這個室內的換氣的地方需要再加強除了說這個室內的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9836.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9858.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
相關的消毒措施以外包括這種加裝抽風扇或者是其他的防疫措施可是這個就是需要費用未來未來在不管是幼兒園或者是小學這部分如果要加強這種空調或者是風扇的這些處理的話不曉得有沒有哪一些的措施正在設法改善中 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9859.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9884.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
跟委員也報告一下因為現在室內空氣品質的部分全國大概就是高中以下的學校大概有將近快1萬所那目前不理就是跟地方政府還有學校就是以推動那個示範學校就是自主標章這部分來做管理那像大專的話他是全面都要納管那高中以下的部分目前大概有像幼兒園的部分大概有150個學校達到優良和 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9888.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9891.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
就是它達到符合的這樣空氣品質標準的規定我們會再把這部分再持續的擴大讓幼兒園的學生能夠有一個乾淨呼吸的空氣品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9901.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9927.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
跟委員報告一下這部分部理會持續來追蹤這部分我還是需要跟地方政府和學校來做一個溝通因為其實如果學校學校要符合這空氣品比較髒他的規範還蠻嚴格他需要專責人員那像幼兒園他人數少他如果要設置專責人員他需要額外另外一筆經費這部分我們跟環保環境部一起來討論一下怎麼樣適合推動到幼兒園的部分來做相關的一些規劃和計劃謝謝委員關心這議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9930.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9951.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
好謝謝葉報委員這其實我看到那個其實我也很有感啦也建議貴院立法院也能夠以身作則能夠改善一下啊其實包含節電空氣品質改善這個要大家一起做啦對其實我最後想要請教部長就是我們的這個CO2到底室內它的這個最低標準是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9952.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9977.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
八小時要一千嘛八小時平均一千我們是超標啦會覺得昏昏欲睡所以為了昭緯的健康為了我們144同仁的健康還有為了大家在這個室內的健康我們很期待至少我們這個801相關的這部分是不是能夠做一些有效措施來改善好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝王委員 謝謝部長部長剛剛特別提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9982.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9991.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
請貴院就請藝術組組長反映一下本院已經出問題了再這樣下去很多委員跟我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9993.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10019.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
相關的工部門的人員都會因為這種空氣品質導致昏昏欲睡意識效率會不彰官員打詢也會混沌不清國家就會沒有未來了好那接下來我們請林淑雯委員來做宣導那也在此做以下宣告目前收到臨時提案共有5萬那待會請待會林淑雯委員質詢結束之後我們就要進行處理好請 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10029.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10032.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
好 謝謝主席是不是請我們彭部長來 請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10037.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10062.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
林委員好部長好其實大家今天談很多但我想要談一個制度面的就想要跟你討論一下這個消費性產品的VOCS排放你的管制工具不足那其實這樣的空瓶跟國人健康是更是息息相關的這個制度面那大家都知道非花信那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10063.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10092.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
挥发性有机化合物就VOCS是形成臭氧和PM2.5的重要的前驱物质它会导致空气品质恶化也会严重的危害国人的健康但是呢如果我们不要讲固定污染源和移动污染源我们扣除了固定污染源和移动污染源那根据你们自己的说法和统计 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10093.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10109.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
消費性的商品含有VOCS的排放量一年大概有18.7萬噸但是很驚人的這樣的排放量你看它是佔我國VOCS排放總量的41%這是你們最新的數據41% |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10112.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10122.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那換句話說它已經是成為就你們這一張圖來看它是成為我國VOCS排放量的最大來源之一超過許多的工業 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10124.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10129.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
污染源的排放也超過了這個移動污染源你看這張表它就是獨樹一格那消費性的商品包括我們大家 隔節都跟個人消費行為有關法膠 清潔產品 噴漆 黏著劑 發香劑 建物的塗料等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10143.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10160.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
所以它是跟人民的生活息息相關的緊密的聯合在一起的而且它對個人的健康的風險影響也非常大的而且大多數都是在室內使用的所以呢每年使用這麼大量的上億個的這樣的消費性的商品累計造成的這個不良的影響非常的驚人 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10165.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10184.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那如果講環境的話這個人健康影響非常大那講環境我剛剛講了它就是臭氧還有PM2.5的重要的前驅物質所以它也是我國空氣品質不良的主要污染物之一可是你們管制了什麼保電有靈觀這下 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10185.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10204.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
包委員其實這個問題我去年年底的時候剛好去東京看一個展看到日本的東京都他就針對這個VOC有一個非常大的攤位就是剛剛委員對啦看這個展以後對你的影響是什麼對你們在政策上的回饋是什麼我隨即就有跟我們大氣師在討論那目前來看的話我們是針對這個塗料的 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10208.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10229.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
非灰性的這個VOC的進行一個管制但是我們發現還有生活還有很多例如說我們噴髮膠等等的都有在裡面你這樣講當然講得很好聽就是說你們現在目前納管的就是建物還有工業維護塗料中的三類別和五種塗料你們訂出了VOC成分的限職規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10231.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10257.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那包括室內的牆壁啦天花板用的塗料啦和室外的牆壁用的塗料就是你們分類裡面的C1 C2還有C3這種類別但是這樣子有限的管制措施你們的預期可以達到多少的排放量的目標管制你知道嗎包委員就是你上面說的他大概佔了大概十幾二十幾左右沒有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10258.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10269.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
沒有到那麼高因為我說消費性的這一個總排放量是18.7萬噸消費性商品可是你的管制起來你們預期達到的是18.7萬你這樣預期的管制目標只有2000噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10276.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10299.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
佔建物塗料VOCS排放量的6%然後離有效控制消費性商品VOCS排放量的目標相去甚遠更令人擔心的是我們知道這裡面佔最多比的是一般和其他消費性商品而不只是你這裡管制的工業和建物使用的塗料 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10300.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10313.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
更多的是跟人民洗洗相關的消費性商品像液體清潔劑法用的化妝品空氣清新劑這種管制的速度非常的慢而且沒有具體的管制標準保證 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10317.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10329.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
這樣要怎麼辦?因為這個問題我有去跟我們同仁討論過第一個是他的項目非常非常的多元而且是整個體系要去做一個很大的改變所以我們也在真的在蒐集資料說例如說日本是怎麼管制的 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10333.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10350.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
我先就建物塗料的管制來就教育你因為你已經選擇了也要優先從建物塗料開始優先去管啊但是你的管理的制度根本是市場導向而不是基於健康環境和科學的數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10351.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10366.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
你人家問你說你是不是經濟部的小弟啊你說你不是小弟可是我們來看你到底是不是小弟從制度面來檢驗嘛你們在108年上8月你還沒上任就公告了建物及工業維護塗料 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10369.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10385.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
揮發性有機物的充分標準你們第一階段就是優先要針對CNS15080CNS都有標準啦不過它是一個參考而不是一個強制性的嘛那在這個裡面CNS裡面CNS158012類的塗料種類你只要納 你現在只納管ABC |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10391.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10399.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
然後現在這個DEF這種你通通都沒有有沒有CNS的12類塗料的種類 玉琴有沒有OK 沒關係你只納管了室內牆壁 室內天花板還有室外牆壁用塗料其他的DEFG就是這些通通沒有都沒有納管然後造成大量的VOCS排放到大氣當中那你們委外有研究報告喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10417.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10424.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
除了D,D類就是室內外的木器、金屬、塑膠用的修飾和保護塗料還有F,F就是你們室內外最小模後木材著色料I單一型塗料K多彩塗料L裝飾效果塗料 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10437.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10448.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
Anyway這些都是建物的這個12大類的塗料建物和工業使用的這個塗料你們的管制是這樣子管制的來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10449.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10474.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
你們的水溶性塗料含量你們是去做市場調查喔這些數據歷年來檢測數據統計是去做後市場調查就現有的市場去收集資料收集資料看得出來你們要研擬一個限值的管制你們最右欄VOC的含量限值建議指你們未來想要的管制方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10474.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10480.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
你去市場收集 比如說第一它第75個 百分之75都是69的單位了那你就會建議說 那我就定為70市場目前69 大多數都69 我就定70市場大部分都是514第二欄 我就建議500那你看一下 如果市場大部分都是692 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10503.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10521.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
那你就想說 你就趨近於CNS標準變500就是一類的 溶劑型的然後你再看 你定的標準就是G類的溶劑型的市場75%都是668你就定了一個450 跟CNS標準一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10522.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10543.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
我們的意思是什麼意思是說 你其實是就市場 牽制於市場然後頂多是訂到CNS標準那你看歐盟的標準 這些歐盟的標準你們其實遠遠的落後於歐盟的標準看得出來啦 其實都是牽制於這個市場標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10545.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10572.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
那你們在研擬未來D到L的這些VOS限值的時候都是用市場的產品現況來決定你的限值要怎麼定如果這樣的規劃裡面其實你是在反映市場趨勢而不是實際健康的風險你是就市場的這個數據而不是基於健康需求也不是基於環境需求而不是實際的風險上的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10574.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10591.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
所以你到底是不是經濟部的小弟這樣的做法來讓產業決定標準而不是透過健康數據和科學的數據和環境的需求來決定標準這難道不是對公共健康的妥協嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10593.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10611.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
這難道不是落入人家對你質疑的是不是經濟部的小弟的這個問號嗎所以你對D類到L類這些塗料的產品VOCS的含量標準你雖然是建議人家委外他是建議你這樣訂你會不會這樣訂還是一個問號喔搞不好你訂的會比委外的建議值還要更寬鬆 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10620.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10634.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
第一個 你到底要不要訂 你要期程會是怎麼訂那什麼時候可以完成全面的這個建物和工業塗料的這個維護的這些管制限職的公告你們大概會是怎麼期程去規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10636.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10656.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
報告委員 這個是一個計畫啦我還沒有看到這個數字對啊 遙遙無期啦你們建議要訂的這個數字我們已經很不滿意了這個是配合產業需求去建議的喔我們已經很不滿意喔但是還是遙遙無期不一定會訂啊現在D到L是零沒有規定 沒有規定 零規定所以現在問你 你到底要不要規定你的起承會是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10666.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10671.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
包委因為我還沒有看到這個報告那這個未來是一定會定的未來是未來多久啊未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10676.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10701.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
跟委員報告目前我們初步規劃是會先針對DEF的部分在今年來DEF那你們的標準會照建議的還是還會更寬鬆跟委員報告因為現在資料在收集我們還在討論當中這個都已經幫你們收集市場上的產品都是這樣子的了你們是配合市場產品的數據去定限值的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10702.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10714.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那個是委外計畫 我知道啊 人家委外研究就去做後市場查驗了 去看了啊那你DEF以外的GHIJKL呢 所以你們是沒有看法保證你今天在這裡回答都沒有及格 沒有擔當 沒有破例 沒有承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10724.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10744.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
但以前都沒工喔沒有沒有 這個是委外的研究計畫我還沒有看到這個數字然後VOC的管制是我未來一定會做的但是我們真的報告委員好 這個只是建物和工業塗料那我要再問你一般性消費產品喔完全沒有管制喔 連排放量都沒有掌握喔消費性商品喔這個消費性商品 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10751.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10776.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我剛剛還有一個更重要的數據但是因為我的表格在講的話會拖更多時間我就算我先講一般消費性商品好了這個液體清潔劑 乏用化妝品 空氣清新劑它具有化學活性這種VOCS都具有化學活性在強烈的日照和氮氧化物存在下會進行一連串的光化反應而產生臭氧還有過氧硝酸 乙烯脂 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10776.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10797.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
就是PAN等二次污染物不但使得空氣品質惡化以外還會刺激呼吸系統導致各種不利健康的影響而且還可能降低這個能見度其實對個人的健康風險其實影響很大那還有這種揮發性的化學物質的揮發有機物的排放量資料為管制重要的工作基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10798.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10821.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那你只有唯有掌握了這一些排放量你才有辦法討論到如何進行管制那了解了這一些排放量的主要貢獻產品類別和品項很重要還可以作為減量效益的這個估算的基礎可是沒有母法授權現在也沒有辦法沒有強制申報和登錄那你們知道一年的大概多少排放量你們調查的出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10822.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10842.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
委員這個是我們現在正在處理的啦所以再給我一點時間你們的委外的資料也沒有啊你現在有委外嗎沒有啊有委外的也沒有啊有母法授權嗎沒有啊報告委員目前有委託工業技術研究院在進行相關的調查跟蒐集什麼時候開始委託的什麼時候結案報告委員去年開始去年預計什麼時候結案多少經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10854.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10861.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
你提供給我 你現在講不出來我告訴你 隨便在這裡虛以為疑 立違青菜公我有在做啊這樣講一句話很簡單的啦但是問你比較詳細的 你就說不出來了啦其實有做沒做不知道啦報告在哪裡不知道啦沒關係 我幫你看一句話你同不同意建立含有VOCS化學製品排放量的申報制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10877.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10892.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我同意你同意好那你自己就好好的進行規劃你說去年去看了然後看起來好像很有感然後好像你要進行管制了你也同意要申報制度了可是我就等著看你什麼時候做因為國際都已經在要加嚴管理台灣卻連開始都還沒有開始現在連盤點連估算到底有多少申報多少量都不知道製造多少量輸入多少量不知道什麼都不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10904.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10914.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
那現在加州的這個一般的VOCS的消費性商品包括這些東西它對現行標準對空氣清淨劑的VOCS含量限制為20到30%而且PY在2023年它在2023年就下降到10%2031年預計要進一步的降到5%然後髮妝用的定型噴霧劑 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10929.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10958.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
之前是55那未來要降到2023年就降到了502031年要降到45%那美國的EPA他1996年也就開始管制然後到2013年制定很多他們都很積極的在管制管制的方式就是透過製造商輸入商經銷商要遵守特定的VOCS的含量限值在這種狀況裡面其實美國都已經在用而且他們訂出很具體說我一年要減少幾萬噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10959.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10976.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
很具體所以在這種狀況裡面你要委外的研究裡面其實你們的VOCS的成分我們看那個髮妝用品的部分還有這個空氣清新劑全部都超標全部都超過國外的標準因為台灣沒有標準嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10976.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10995.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那你們在研擬這個標準的時候也沒有積極的對接到國際標準你們還是以廠商現有的技術能力市場既有的產品然後為基準去訂出遠低於國際標準的鬆散法規那像這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10997.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11007.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
清潔劑的使用你去看環境部把它分成加壓式和一般式而你看你們去市場檢測就是這個紫色的實際檢測最大值然後最大值最上面你們就定出你們你預計可能想要的他委託的單位建議你們的就是四正方形的紅色的格子格子狀的然後你們定的標準你定的標準都遠比於 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11025.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11044.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
加州的、美國的、香港的都還要更寬鬆許多看起來環境部沒有因應健康需求沒有因應環境需求的或是國際標準而是以業者技術做不到現有的市場產品就是這種標準略低於現有的市場的產品直接評估將標準定在這種30WT的percent所以更無視於國際更嚴格的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11055.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11061.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
這個是清潔劑你看下一個是空氣清新劑你同樣的沒有以國際標準為依據都還是就市場現有的產品然後產品的現況訂出一個建議的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11072.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11076.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
然後去折衷就以實際檢測的75%的數據將標準定成80WT而不是參照國際趨勢去加嚴我最後要說你這樣子委外的單位跟你建議的 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11092.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11112.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
你這樣的標準制定方式都不是基於健康和環境需求就是單純的配合業者的能力讓現有的產品都不必大幅的修改就能通過檢驗結果導致了台灣的VOCS的管制遠遠落後國際連基本的門檻都沒有辦法提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11113.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11138.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
它影響了我們剛剛講清潔的空氣清新劑的不是只有危害到這個是戶外空氣品質它這個都在室內而且不太容易易散國人平均有80%到90%的時間都是在室內而建築工業塗料它這個是在戶外居多但是建築塗料也一大部分都是在室內屋頂的牆面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11141.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11165.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
所以這個大家國際的經驗告訴你說這種消費線產品都在室內不容易易散第二個 這一種管制必須是全面且系統性的管制才能有效所以我們在這種狀況不管制 不納管對個人健康影響很大我在最後問你就是說你擴大管制 加強管制 跟國際標準對接你有沒有這樣的計畫 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11166.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11183.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
包委員這個是我們我去年去完了之後就跟同仁討論去東京剛好看到東京都在做這個事啦然後我有特別交代然後他們其實這個委員提供的資料是我們委外的一個計畫從你們委外的計畫來看就知道已經夠糟 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11184.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11199.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
沒有那個是委外計畫做不是我們做啊所以你的意思是說你訂的標準會比委外計畫訂的更嚴格囉這個我們會來研議好不好但我不是要問你嚴格的問題我問你期程啊你不要告訴我說你未來會做結果你下台了還沒做 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11202.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11225.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
我們擔心的是這個啊你是不是要針對消費性產品VLCS管制你有沒有短中長期的計畫五年內你有沒有要多少消費性產品類別要納管你預期有沒有設定一個減量的目標和效益委員再給我們一點時間內部討論可以嗎好那我下次問你顯然就應該要有答案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11226.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11229.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
我第一次拋出這個議題,你說你還沒有看過,那我就讓你有點時間去準備可以,沒問題,謝謝委員現在來處理臨時提案,既有五案請一併宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11244.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11272.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
第一案有鑒於環境部官方報告最新於一一三年度顯示出我國有三十七座淨水廠驗出致癌及增加萃死機率的PFAS物質考量於罰還上路期乃預告三年後的一一六年七月才開始期間實為免罰空窗期原此特要求環境部因演繹加速管理事後並於二個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11273.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11288.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
提案人委員陳金輝如現已呈招資第二案有鑑於我國某科技大學最新受檢驗出飲用水供水中乃含有劇毒且致癌本物質並超標64倍是以為求公眾健康之完整維護 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11289.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11305.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
特決議因最速辦理採儲對象與所在位置周知作業並限期於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交應儲與改善進度報告提案人委員陳金輝 盧憲一 陳昭芝第三案 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11305.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11332.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
有鑒於當前環境部對於中央空氣污染防治業務多以PM2.5及O3為關注之指標污染物是以考量當前空氣作為新興污染物質之介質在即時監測並公開與防治上應在與加強原要求應限期於二個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交改善書面報告提案人委員陳金輝 盧憲一 陳昭姿第四案 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11332.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11349.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
考量飲用水管理條例自91年以來未有修訂當中諸多處罰之內容乃沿用86年所修訂之規範應積極改善原此特要求應限期於一個月內啟動修法研議作業事後並於二個月內 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11350.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11364.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
後向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝如現已呈招資第五案有鑒於環境部隊我國飲用水的簡易自來水包含社區自設公共集水設備在內 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11365.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11391.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
整整於一一三年期間的抽驗結果照官方統計數據顯示竟只有204件原此特要求限期於一個月內完成加強查驗機制之啟動並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝盧憲一陳焦姿宣讀完畢好我們現在出原始提案那應該這五萬都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11393.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11421.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
都有跟提案委員溝通過好那我們是不是一個案說明一下第一案沒問題第一案沒問題照委員的意見辦理第二案也沒有問題遵照委員辦理那第三案也沒有問題遵照委員的意見辦理那第四案也沒有問題第四案要說明對不對沒有沒有也沒有問題遵照委員辦理那第五案有一點我們第五案說明一下跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11422.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11448.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
我們每年都會依照飲用水管理條例跟這個飲用水會訂立一個飲用水的一個重點稽查起地計畫我們以113年為例我們自來水就查驗了1.2萬件然後另外飲用水設備也查驗了7000件那至於簡易自來水呢我們查驗了204件最主要原因是因為我們有公告列管所謂的簡易自來水他是要達到一定的規模包含就是100戶500人以上的設有這個廢水處理設施的設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11451.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11478.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那所以基本上這樣子的簡易自來水目前列管有43處那我們查了204件基本上幾乎一年就查驗了五次平均一個簡易自來水設施就查驗了五次所以基本上不是沒有查驗那這個部分我們是不是建議文字做這樣子的一個修正那是不是在那個第三行照官方統計數據顯示然後加這些字 加什麼字呢就是達公告列管簡易自來水秋驗禁止有204件 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11480.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11491.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
當中更有九個縣市我們建議加幾個文字就是因吳達公告列管檢疫自來水設施檢驗宿掛零掛零之後這個逗號開始到第五行的句號我們建議刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11498.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11513.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
為什麼這樣說就是因為基本上我們是定有相關的這個重點稽查協定計畫而且有獨島縣市環保局辦理稽查所以我們是不是把這些文字刪掉但是呢我們是不是這樣子延遲呢特提案要求限期一個月內提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11514.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11538.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
極加強完成兩個字把它刪除我們會再來檢討這個簡易自來水的一個管理那進一步的呢再來做相關的這個跟簡易自來水法的主管機關包括水利署因為水利署那邊也有一個無自來水就是使用簡易自來水的相關的一個改善計畫我們會跟他一起來做協調是不是我們建議以上文字的修正就是特提案要求一個頁內 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11539.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11552.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
提供及加強查驗機制那這啟動了我們是不是建議那三個字也刪除那並向衛環委員會提交書面報告我們一個月內我們來找水利署再來針對簡易自來水的管理做一些相關的一些檢討以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11555.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11574.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
同意 可以啦 好那提案委員也同意 那各位有沒有其他意見那如果沒有 那我們第一關就照這樣修正後來通過那一到四案 應該大家都沒有意見嘛那我們就照提案委員的這樣的提案來通過好 那臨時提案全部處理完畢 接下來我們繼續來進行詢問我們請麥議員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11590.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11607.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
謝謝主席 有請環境部部長環境部目前運行的空瓶監測系統已經有很多年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11609.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11636.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
但是臺灣的PM2.5濃度還是一樣偏高委員不會喔我們從8年前大概平均20降到12.8去年12.8是嗎對但是我們根據環環境部的統計就是臺灣的部分地區年度啦經營PM2.5濃度能超過世界衛生組織在7歐的最新標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11637.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11652.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
所以請問部長你覺得說環境部你覺得是這樣子的你覺得是比較減少的話今天就不會排來去質詢所以說我們的定期檢討還有現行的監測點的數據是準確的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11656.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11677.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
如果準確的話為什麼會有這樣不準確是準確性的嗎不好委員手動跟自動本來就不一樣的東西例如說委員你在對我說那個數據有準確嗎當然準確我們是按照一個法規自動跟手動的定義就不一樣我舉例例如說我們在浴室裡面我們要洗熱水澡一打開有水蒸氣那個水蒸氣呢就PM2.5就會超標因為水分子 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11681.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11701.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
濕度會讓小微粒變大變成PM2.5可是事實上有沒有計畫增加就是各個點比較偵測密度比較高的地方有沒有增加我們有比較好一點的很嚴格的堅定例如說自動跟手動的這個其實它的費用是很高的那很多那種所謂的IoT |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11702.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11715.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
這種自動型的那個便宜比較便宜可能就幾千塊一萬塊的那個可以再多因為一個是看趨勢一個看實質上的量那我們還我們國家目前還是以手動的監測因為他比有比較好的科學方法的論證會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11717.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11746.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
但是我們看到的是不是你講的那麼完美所以我們除了就是監測數據問題之外還有過去我們看到的有企業有很多企業違反就是空屋房子的法規但是罰款就是比較偏低就導致就是違反成本比較低所以環境成本也比較沒辦法達成就是大家都遵守 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11747.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11760.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
所以我們環境部對於這樣子的企業是否有強力的監管的措施或者是提高他們的罰款才能就是減少空污 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11762.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11778.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
有嗎包委員這個我上任之後對於這種所謂的偷牌或是不實數據都是重罰的所以我也不知道有沒有注意到我們幾個月前我們曾經罰了一個漁船一個港啊大概一千多萬所以其實委員那個那個其實費用是很高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11779.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11805.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
費用很高為什麼還是一樣很多的空屋還有很多的企業就當然是說那個如石化鋼鐵還有就是燃燒發電等還有一些空屋的重要的來源還是一樣是沒辦法去改善才會造成現在的空屋所以我們台中空屋最嚴重了 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11807.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11829.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
委員其實我找到報告裡面有一張是我們所有的污染物的來源其實你說的是固定污染源也有移動污染源還有各種的污染源都在裡面那其實要大家改善一起改善才有辦法做得到所以剛才我們委員就是質詢了快要半個小時但是你要說去參加別人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11830.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11856.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
參加日本的所以我看到日本的VOC的管制很特別很特別但是我們要去考察就是看到別人要回來自己要改進或者是有一個措施來去製作要去規定嘛還有就是說一些企業我們就是要去罰款還有是要去溝通還有如何就是減少這樣子的空氣汙染 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11857.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11879.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
所以我們不是說我們去人家餓了自己放來沒辦法我們很積極的在處理規劃這個事情但是其實一個很例如說剛剛講的VOC其實它涉及到民生所有的產品委員你每天在用的噴髮膠等等全部都有要管制其實這個要方法的不然的話你的方法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11880.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11903.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我們正在規劃當中都是每次執行都是規劃中執行中討論中我們是正在進行當中都沒有真正的是這個一個明確的措施沒有沒有委員我們其實很多事情都積極的在推動當中但是有些事情涉及到很多的部會這真的要需要一些時間來做溝通要準備好才能夠推出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11904.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11926.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
好所以準備好也不知道準備到什麼時候所以我們希望說在我們的未來是不是有計劃加速燃煤電廠的檢排設備還有可不可以是升級還有說可不可以就是淘汰就是高污染的發電廠這樣子的話是不是可以重啟核電呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11933.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11950.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
有沒有這樣子的可能報告委員其實燃煤電廠當然舊的燃煤電廠它基本上是污染很嚴重但是如果它把CCS或是各種的空污減排做下去其實它也可以乾淨的但是我們還是希望由煤轉氣而是我們看到現在澳洲各國都是重新就是核電但是我們政府的錯誤政策讓我們的全民買單 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11962.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11964.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
現在下個月又說可能會漲電價所以看起來是非常不可我們的部長是不是承諾跟我們的人民說我們不會去漲價 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11974.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11978.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
這個電價不是我主管的我不能夠承諾這個事情啊對啊你沒有辦法承諾但是你們也要是真的是有跨部會來去來去協助來去討論才有說現在我們這邊的空氣汙染啊所有影響到大家就是頭腦鈍鈍啊問問不好回答也會不會回答這樣子啊是不是所以我們希望說我們是沒辦法漲價但是我們要去把關還有政策要 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12003.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12014.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
準確性不管是室內室外還有我們的汽車交通全部我們要希望大家要來去買電動車但是我們又沒有設備集權所以我們的空氣又在污染 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12021.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12037.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
這個部分我們也是要去跨部會來去討論不是說我們再問到我們的環境部交通部經濟部大家都說我們要去問其他部還是怎麼樣我們各部會都請大家民間要 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12040.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12050.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
聯合要是共同就是橫向來去討論但是我們各部會自己做自己的所以到最後說我們再來去問我們再來去討論所以不知道到民國幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12055.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12069.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
所以我們希望我們台灣的空氣品質不關於是民眾的健康每天我們都是用就是空清氣的費來去吸這樣子的空氣所以我們希望說我們的空氣要好別人才會進來我們台灣來去投資還有移民還有居住這邊這安全所以我們交通的污染也是沒有去 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12084.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12090.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
去跨部會經濟部很多中小企業跟我們的環境部也沒有辦法去連結所以我們希望跨部會來去連結有一個具體的計畫讓我們知道說我們今年我們預算已經在補助了但是呢都沒有去有計畫怎麼去執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12108.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12117.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
現在都在去炒說什麼上預算但是有的預算為什麼沒有去規劃來去做呢還有我們是沒有我們的立法院沒有去說去上預算我們在今年我們年初的時候我們去審預算在 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12131.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12152.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
4年的预算我们还没有省大家也是花光了对不对所以现在我们希望各部会真正的回到自己的岗位把自己该做的要来去规划跨部会来去讨论如何才会让我们的人民住的安心住的健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12153.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12159.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
所以這個部分希望我們的部長在空屋治理行動計畫要三個月內可不可以提出來讓我們來做參考說你真正的來去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12168.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12173.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
我們不想聽到各部會都說我們再來討論我們回去再檢討我們再來去做我希望說我們要提出具體的真正的去改善空氣的品質讓我們國民享受更健康生活的環境可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12188.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12215.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
包委我們現在正在做的就是空品的白皮書為了未來五年整個我們空品改善策略第三期管制策略如何做得更好所以我們到時候下個月如果完成之後我們會再給委員請委員指教所以說下個月你就會你可以提出具體的計畫給我們不用三個月一個白皮書你現在就可以提出了我們正在努力在做就是等你提出具體的計畫真正的去執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12218.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12220.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
謝謝主席 一起各位先進有請環境部的彭部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12246.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12251.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
賴委員好部長你好部長知道我們台灣的癌網是哪一個癌知道嗎肺癌肺癌對跟你有關係喔環境影響很大女生比男生多女生你不抽菸 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12267.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12276.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
啊怎麼會這樣子你剛才一提到有個事情我突然先一個小問題先請教你喔就是說熱水一開的時候那時候PM2.5很高對 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12278.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12305.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
所以是不是有必要在我們的這個什麼頭啊就是那個敞篷頭裡面要過水加一個過濾的有沒有用啊 加一個過濾有沒有用報告委員那個是濕度讓我們空氣中更小的微粒長大變成PM2.5所以基本上那種我們家裡面多數家裡的空氣品質是好的但是因為濕度的關係讓PM2.5增多但是那個其實對我們身體是沒有危害的 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12307.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12332.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
所以我們家不家那個什麼field沒有關係沒有用因為我們家裡面本來沒有比較少所以委員剛剛你提到的說為什麼婦女因為我們家裡面台灣的習慣蒸煮炒炸例如說那樣的生活習慣在家裡面廚房的PM2.5其實也很高的所以其實我們家裡面很多的生活也會造成女性相對的比例會高一點所以你會鼓勵我們的這個婦女同胞少自己煮多點外賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12333.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12343.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
不是我們的作息的方式例如說煮菜的方式可以轉變因為我們的如果是雜煎的回來看一下世界最大的排碳國是哪幾個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12344.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12372.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
呃中國第一名中國第二名美國第三名呃應該是印度印度這三個國而且這兩年印度跟中國大陸啊增加的很多那現在川普退出巴黎協定啊請問什麼時候生效呃大概還要一年多的時間一年因為過去這時候要一講要退出是三年了喔那大概這一次大概一年所以我們可以大概大家expect大概差不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12373.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12392.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
今年底或是到明年初他會退出是不是對但是他的退出因為這個UFCCC他本來就是一個自我的承諾自己的要求那他們過去呢這個拜登總統也提出了美國的新的NDC他要減60%等於是跟2005年相比所以目前未來美國到底怎麼走我們也還在觀察 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12393.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12404.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
可是現在一來的話大家都看得到啊這個巴黎協定本來說二兩千兩千一百年現在是二零二五兩千一百年全球plus1.5度以內 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12408.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12430.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
這個大概普攻了吧氣候融資中斷了對貧窮國家拜登政府啊對貧窮國家提供一百一十億美金的融資也會中斷這些數據都對吧第一個是1.5度應該是失守了1.5是失守了但可能會到兩度到三度兩度到三度暗熱死 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12432.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12451.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
當然對目前依照各個國家的減碳的路徑還是沒有辦法到鎖到一點呼吸那川普的退出協定會不會使這個雪上加霜更plus上去會不會應該會讓這個速度喔等於是說減碳的速度慢下來然後第二個是說我們的極端事件會持續的在增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12452.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12480.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
這個會不會讓某種程度讓電動汽車的市場會稍微差一點以美國現在就是這個樣子現在那個不一樣了Tesla那個是因為很多人現在歐盟其實是恨美國的關稅的問題啊而且恨那個那個Elon Musk那個是另外一件事所以連帶影響他的銷售量這個影響是可能更大而不是這個原因我認為跟這個原因的影響度沒那麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12481.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12488.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
報告委員因為這個其實川普也改變了任何的對於這種環保車輛各種的補助這個也是原因之一啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12489.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12513.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
所以就更加沒有希望了1.5度已經破功了確定破功因為這是全球加起來例如說以中國來說的話它是2060年才要宣布淨零那個印度是2070年那我們什麼時候可以淨零我們現在是20我們當然是原的目標當然是2050年可以要希望達到淨零嘛那我們現在未來定到2035年希望可以減最多38加減2 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12517.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12541.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
李遠哲前院長李遠哲院長說2050年絕對不可能淨零啦他這樣講欸你要不要挑戰一下包委員其實這個就是一個理想啦如果我們沒有一個淨零的目標我們現在就不用做了嘛所以就這樣我們一個理想一個目標所以你也同意李遠哲講到2050年達不到淨零啦對台灣來講非常辛苦因為這要別的工具請問美國2050年能不能達到淨零 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12543.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12561.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
美國有機會喔有機會台灣沒有機會台灣因為我們的這個地小人稠我們沒有那麼多負擔的這個量所以的確算是給你你又不是這樣回答你就說只要我彭某人當部長就有機會不會不會我包圍我2050我就退休了我不會做那麼久 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12562.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12571.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
不一定走到那一年啦你前面規劃好後面就照著你路徑走啊不一定一定坐在那個時候就是我這幾年認真規劃盤摸摸在規劃這個2050就有機會所以報告委所以我規劃了203538加減2嗎38 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12583.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12585.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
那我是2035喔2035等於是如果努力的話可以將近4成的減碳量未來10年可以減4成那我們的碳費300塊什麼時候開始課 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12598.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12620.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
今年1月1號就開始課 明年開始收要不要因為川普這樣改變了 不要不會確定喔確定確定不會改變喔對 確定你知不知道探權教育現在目前情況怎麼樣探權教育目前只有自願性的減量多少你知道嗎非常的 我們目前台灣的非常的還因為它只能自願性的什麼叫可能啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12621.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12634.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
碳權交易他不是真正說我要買賣不是的是說國外有些的碳權拿來這裡類似股票籌碼一樣在炒作你知道嗎給你看碳權交易多少10萬台幣新台幣啊上一次6000過來4000 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12642.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12660.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
那個交易所的時候 董事長來找我 我特別關心這一塊啊我特別關心這一塊 貪錢交易 貪錢交易因為這個又跟我們那個出口到歐盟去的西邊又有關係這個非常重要的一個 全世界都有這個貪錢交易所 結果台灣我說 貪錢交易啊 這怎麼是貪錢交易四千六千 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12664.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12668.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
只有4千 你看2025年的1月7號1比4千 1比6千2024年12月1比10萬那等於沒有啊 騙人的啊我們有探險教育喔 喔喔喔 了不起喔這年排放喔 都是欺騙社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12682.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12704.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
包委員不能這樣說因為它是自願性的市場因為它是自願性撿到的市場我例如說我自己要宣告碳中和我可以跟他買所以這個的誘因不夠所以我們現在正在規劃總量管制的排放交易我記得啊你的前面好幾屆前面的長官啊那時候叫環保署有個署長叫小毛你知道嗎知道知道嗎沈世宏叫小毛我跟他談了幾次啊他念之再之就是怎麼樣建立我們的碳權交易所 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12712.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12721.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
了不起啊 這裡面啊而且是法人才能夠交易喔 對不對對 這個是要重大的開放其中有好幾筆就是省市總區交易的 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12722.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12744.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
沈世宏啊你知道他念茲在茲當過環保署長老實說很了不起啊他一直覺得我們的為什麼貪權交易建立不起來呢因為公法人可以去他就成立個什麼協會聯盟然後就去買賣我們的貪權交易在市場裡面不要讓這個太難看要等於是ZERO啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12745.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12762.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
攔幹的要誰沒有人要推他是自願性的市場這樣少應該是理所當然的我問你 你能不能推一推嗎我們現在正在規劃總量管制的排放交易希望從慢慢的從碳費過渡到總量管制的排放交易我不是澎湖委員會啦但是我能不能夠拜託你給我們一份簡單的報告說怎麼來讓碳權交易這個市場火落可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12772.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12783.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
可以 我們現在正在規劃希望明年下半年可以推出來明年下半年可以做這個事當然這涉及到很多法令的問題法令我們來修好法令 探險教育何等重要然後你看從沈世宏2008年馬英九執政的時候那時候他當環保署長到現在我每次找他 他就跟我講這個事情每次找他就跟我講這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12797.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12806.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
舉全世界各國的例子我覺得很棒啊我全力支持啊我那時候也是在讀這個探權教育的書啊對我在讀書大時候的讀書會跟省署長就在讀這個東西十幾年前就在讀這個書探權教育探權教育探權教育我在財務會老是盯這個事情看了東西心很酸啊因為這個教育幾萬塊是不是要一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12821.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12823.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
謝謝委員支持 謝謝謝謝賴委員 謝謝部長我們接下來請張祺凱委員來做詢問請部長張委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12849.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12877.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
今天齊凱要問齊銘啊世界這個環評啊是不是一個假環評真作弊博丁你知道一位吹哨者來提供的這個資料啊多立聯本這個致癌的嘛你知道這個很毒超標的7.3倍而且這個檢測過程啊竟然造假土壤這個污染值在調查裡面竟然只有查了一處你知道這件事情嗎我知道我知道你知道那這個環評還有效嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12879.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12899.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
當然有效啊 這是兩個 包括委員其實土屋跟這個環評這是兩個不一樣的法規程序如果沒有問題 那為什麼要避開呢沒有避開 我們先看一下法令先看一下法令規定土壤污染評估調查報告跟檢測作業的管理辦法第五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12901.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12928.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
鎖定了這個土壤污染評估值跟測驗這個資料如果照這個資料不得低於以下這個規定你至少一個污染的土地你要檢測如果是原來協和電廠這個面積要245處如果包括那個填奶的地方要303結果你自己去做了一個59點的這個自行的這個檢測保定你要回答那個問題我要提醒你一個很重要的不管是不是台電給你假的這個資料還是錯誤的信息如果沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12930.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12941.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
你們為什麼要避開那你之前為什麼要做你都還知道台積電去高雄那個河地的整治就是污染土地現在還在整治啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12942.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12966.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
你污染的土地沒有整治完怎麼可以上面就開始蓋呢怎麼環評就夠了呢是不是這樣你現在是環境部長你現在是環境部長喔這個不要變成你從民間來的留下來一個污點很重要第一個我先跟你講我先講一個重要概念你污染一個土地河地整治都沒有完成環評就可以夠嗎這是第一個點第二個我最直接問的台電你們如果認為沒問題或者 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12971.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12977.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
環境部這邊沒問題你們當初為什麼要做更嚴重的你們為什麼要避開那59個有污染的地方就是需要做嘛對不對是不是這樣現在更讓我生氣了那天2月26號環評我跟陳昭志跟黃珊珊我們三個立法委員因為我們接到吹哨者的資料啊我們是送進去環境部我知道你那天迴避嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12998.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13004.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
可是你環境部跟所有的環評委員事先應該已經接到這個資料囉我給你看這個資料 來你看看我們看上一張圖這個土壤要怎麼調查它一共有分A B C D你看看 有幾個區A區是污染很嚴重的廢水處理場的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13021.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13030.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
V區 V區後來調查了 污染比較沒那麼嚴重可是D區就是發電機組這個區域啊非常嚴重 下一張我給你看一下這是台電WTOG自己做出來的喔結果你們把這個東西蓋牌了A區就是剛剛講的廢水處理廠都立原本啊管制的標準只有0.09欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13050.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13064.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
這是致癌的這麼嚴重的一個污染污染物超標多少0.659欸超標7.3倍下面這是低區很多都超標了部長當崔少哲把這東西給了立法委員立法委員叫環評委員要先看結果那天 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13080.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13095.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
你至少要做一個動作嘛把這個資料消化完之後是不是好好去清查一下當天基隆市的市長也在場我的要求完全要合法要合乎規定你至少讓基隆市謝國隆那天也講啊他說儘快他會同你環境部去做這個檢測 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13108.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13114.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
你做完檢測以後那天環評才有效啊結果你罷完硬上工這樣的環評大會怎麼會是有效的部長我明確做三個要求我今天早上來問了會議紀錄到現在沒有公佈嘛對不對三天內第一個三天內完整公佈歷次的環評的這個審議還有2月26號會議的這個紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13137.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13156.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
特別是土壤污染的評估報告可以嗎 法定法務委員這個是基隆要宣告所謂的土壤污染管制區是基隆市政府他要去查的地方政府那我們已經交代我們的環管署到那個地方要配合基隆市環保局去查到底有沒有那委員你提出的這個所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13157.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13173.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
介紹者 催哨者 歡迎到接避者保護我一定馬上查 馬上處理這段的過程我們會馬上處理從環評的程序裡面說得很清楚環評的程序跟土屋管制兩個是不一樣的法規程序像南部的你說的例如說很多的這個要新蓋的 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13174.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13196.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
污染了要開發他的規劃環評還是可以照走但是他如果要開發一定要整治完了之後才會開發現在他不過現在根本就是不是土壤的管制的區域那他過去106年曾經發現過107到08年鞋餓電廠已經改善了現在不是那現在未來如果公告是的話那他未來就進入到那個程序嚴重誤會囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13197.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13219.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
吹哨者保護拿來的不是舊的東西喔是最近台電委託自行去調查的喔你如果沒有需要你為什麼要調查你為什麼要移開要避開而且是新的資料你絕對不要被誤導的不是舊的資料是新的這是第一個點第一個點來第二個更重要來來來當場環評大會要開對不對你有新的市政出現嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13221.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13247.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
你是不是應該停下來那天謝國亮已經講了他盡快會同你環境部去調查完你說調查完真的沒有問題是誤會你對不對那你環評就過了啊你現在顛倒病啊你現在先過了環評然後你現在去調查調查出來有問題怎麼辦所以這個根本就是一個無效的啊霸王硬上弓又違反程序違法的一個環評啊是不是這樣報告委員這是兩個不一樣的法規程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13248.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13273.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
不一樣的法規可是一定要做啊要不然的話他如果要開發他如果要開發要把土壤整治完成才可以開發啊你今天有誤對我知道你的意思啦可是第一個如果有污染你就要先要求他做這個事嘛對不對你當場沒有做你還要通過環評第二個是部長您在講的啊你要先確認啊要不然你怎麼後來有整治的問題等一下等一下啦來來來所以做三件事情第一個法定三天內 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13276.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13287.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
公布歷次環評的會議特別是土地污染的評估報告你有問題嗎土地污染的報告不是環評會議的資料是他們做土屋調查的 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13288.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13311.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
這邊要跟委員說明一下土壤污染評估調查的報告是他們依土屋法去做的調查並不是依我們環評法去調查所以我們環評裡頭只有規定它範疇界定要去調查一個點位所以我們環評的資料當然會議紀錄相關是OK可是土屋調查是另外所以59個地方有污染你特別去挑了一個你為什麼要避開 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13313.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13328.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
這個什麼 台語什麼 禮貌也要注意喔偷天換日是吧你怎麼跟人民可以交代現在我非常明確的要求嘛第一個就是因為有問題所以你才要調查這是一個 所以我要求第一個你把這個調查報告給全民看 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13330.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13343.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
你有二氧化碳數嗎現在吹哨所來講就是59個地方明明確確都是有汙染啊你後來坐著再去去啊對不對這邊先跟委員報告你看看A跟D都有汙染結果你再去 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13345.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13361.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
把這個公佈給全民來做公平更重要的無染無染的調查報告是他們自行調查報告並不是送到我們審查的報告所以這個可能要請台電自己說明而且那個報告也不是我們你要保護安全的保護環境的 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13364.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13383.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
包委員我們叫依法行政圖跟環評這是本來兩件事情而且他們一定要整治完之後才能做開發這是本來的規定過去以往就是這個樣子所以你發現有污染你是不是應該停下來把它整治好或者是確認完之後才能夠開下一步請台縣來報告所以我做了兩個很重要的要求你看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13386.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13411.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
第一個你把資料把它公佈第二個 柏定你看這個要求這個很明確嘛依法跟依程序嘛土壤評估報告裡面如果你現在調查出來的他如果沒有含之前的那個59處他跳開了 對不對他避開了 柏定你說你已經要跟市政府要去調查嘛對不對是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13412.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13438.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
我們是配合市政府去做調查配合嘛對啊所以環境部立即會同這個基隆市政府針對這59個地方你趕快去調查沒有調查完成之前你這個會議本來就是無效的嘛這個會議環評大會這個結論要先報告不是無效喔不是無效他都有經歷了法令的過程來完成這件事情兩個法令本來就是不一樣委員你不能強人所難我們是依法行政啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13439.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13443.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
所以我們就配合市政府他必須要去完成這個土壤污染區的公告啊OK所以我提了第三點嘛如果後來你們去檢測的結果確實有污染這樣環民大會的結論還可以用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13462.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13491.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
柏定回答等一下我要叫他留下記錄柏定摸著良心你從明天來我原本不能這樣說這個是我們要按照這個程序在進行這個程序我的程序就是他如果汙染汙染汙染如果就進到我們的汙染整治的關鍵他在106年曾經發現過107 08年在我們部內的列管已經整治完成了那現在他現在正在如果有新的事項我們去查了之後他也是照這個程序在開在在進行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13492.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13512.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
你這個是頭跟腳不是顛倒了嗎你發現它有汙染你就盡可能不要再這個環境就不應該過你處理完你才能夠走下一步啊結果不是你現在是怎麼樣一定要護航要先過霸王硬上弓說一定要一定要過嗎教練在跟我講一定要過這是兩個不一樣的程序我也說得很清楚喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13513.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13524.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那我剛剛一直有一個疑問嘛台電為什麼要做這個為什麼環評團體跟民團要來抗議這個我剛才還給你看土壤法的這個整個整個檢測的過程那個報告委員好我是台電啦我這邊先說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13531.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13554.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
協和電廠並不是市政府宣布的土地污染場址所以在環評法裡面它是兩個不同法源如果今天是環評法裡面它特別有說明如果你是宣布為土地污染場址的時候就不能辦環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13556.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13568.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
他並沒有先後秩序台電是自主負責那你為什麼要自行負責要去做這個調查你有沒有沒問題你為什麼要調查沒有規定你為什麼要做這個調查委員你先聽我把事情說完 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13573.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13598.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
台電就是我們每一個開發廠子都必須做這個都必須把土地整治完成合格之後才會進行開發市街發現污染了不用是吧 跳過去就好了是吧那個報告委員剛剛我剛剛有澄清基隆市政府如果有宣布協和電廠當時在環評之前是土屋 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13600.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13615.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
有宣布的話那這個環評可能就有問題可是這個並不是宣布可是這個要市政府全責是你們台電拿出台電的這個叫報告人這個是我們自主性做的這個跟市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13615.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13645.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
市政府 你的調查裡面有沒有汙染有沒有這59個汙染有沒有報告委員 有沒有 有沒有自主性檢查裡面有這一個汙染但是這個並不是市政府自己去調查是我們為了開花案場而去做的自主性調查所以市政府如果照你們的調查報告就是會有嘛是不是你們自己調查的東西到底有沒有這才重要啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13645.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13653.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
委員這個要進到環評的時候在範疇界定裡面他要求我們測試是1點這委員應該很清楚啊太子你為什麼不測那50你們還建議說要跳開這59點這個是抽樣欸抽樣不是說我們固定的沒有說跳過去啦那個59點並不是在範疇界定裡面所以你那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13675.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13683.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
沒有59點裡面的話你怎麼抽得出來說是有你自己找到59點跳過去你們的報告裡面還建議說你到時候要檢測的時候要跳過那59點啊欸對不起委員並不是像你想像中不是像你想像中59點不是在好好委員委員來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來大家看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13703.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13710.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
初步判斷非擴散污染因已知污染位置正式調查可以疑點這不是你們來電嗎我是覺得我們應該是去看環評裡面的規定說我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13719.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13728.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
換籌界定的那一點區域在哪裡可是這個59點是另外一個問題可是到底有沒有汙染第二個你有沒有檢測到59個汙染點第三個你為什麼故意跳進去我已經讓你們兩道解說清楚了齁好不好來來抱歉抱歉輸血不用不用不用你們這樣不行啦齁你們兩個一個解釋也不是很清楚一個認定上也有模糊的空間啦齁是不是休息五分鐘那你們就說清楚不用不用不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13745.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13754.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
後面有委員在等啊我當主席我最起碼已經給你們有充分的時間了這個委員會我剛才當主席你們要把事情討論清楚我絕對會支持但是你們兩兆在平行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13768.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13791.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
完全沒有教會嘛我讓你們休息完等一下你要講再講嘛好不好來休息三分鐘等一下我們私下溝通一下休息一方面溝通一下一方面我就要求照這三點來做啦趕快環境部會同那個基隆市政府基本要弄清楚你如果真的檢測出來你沒有的問題現在問題就是清清楚楚你自己白紙黑字都有問題嘛你這環評怎麼會有效呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13808.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13818.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
我當然珍惜啊可是你要依法行政啊你不能這樣給我污衊啊這個我們有一定的程序啊污染完就要整治完成啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13824.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13848.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
你們避開了五十九點再去找一個沒有的換籌界定的一點委員的認知是什麼對啦 你要不用你我的報價 這些都一定還你規定的對 換籌界定的那個不是我們界定的沒事啦 沒事啦就是 反正把那你們現在一定是不要這樣做嘛反正院長也知道你們做什麼對啊 對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13854.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13866.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
你留在這裏, 靜一靜就好, 看你, 看你, 看你,要不要乾杯呢, 謝謝, |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13873.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13886.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
河沙沙沙 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13899.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13913.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14022.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14040.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
好 我們繼續開會 接下來請張志倫委員來做詢問好 主席 各位委員 各位官員 大家午安有請彭部長來 請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14046.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14067.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
今天要討論的是有關於台灣空污的相關的問題最近的新聞也明確的表示出來肺癌成為國人十大癌症死因之首每年新增的人數1.7萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14069.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14082.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
新增人數1.7萬人死亡超過1萬人那尤其現在最重要的就是大家認為這個肺腺癌肺癌的原因跟這個居住地方的PM2.5濃度有相當重要的一個關係那就這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14086.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14106.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
本部環境部提出來的資料就是說現在來講去年的PM2.5的數字有下降到12點12點多的一個部分是相較去年來講是前年來講是比較好可是本席這邊有提供有提到一個資料就是說就 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14107.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14135.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
這個瑞士空氣品質檢測公司IQ Air的部分他寫說而且公視也有報導這樣的資料台灣在全球空污的排名結果是第54名將於2023年退後9名所以這邊要請教部長的部分是說為何我們環境部內部的資料跟我們國際瑞士空氣品質檢測公司兩方的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14136.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14164.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
感覺起來台灣的空汙的品質是退後八名而且在這邊這個環境部的資料是寫說他的這個PA2.5的指標是12點多可是這裡的數字是17.5我想要請教一下這個部長這跟我們現在訂的12規定的12的PA2.5的這個標準相差很大是不是可以請部長說明這兩個資料的差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14165.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14179.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
好 謝謝張委員提出這個意見因為這個IQ Air我跟委員報告它是一個瑞士的一家做空氣品質監測的公司它的產品是屬於這種小型的比較便宜的比較容易偵測的所以大家都會可以採用 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14180.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14208.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
那它在台灣也有一些策站然後它的使用的資料會整合我們環境部的資料那通常這種自動的數字它一定會比較高它缺乏的QAQC或上游在某一種條件之下例如說濕度很高PM2.5就容易變得高所以它的統計的量它會相對的就會偏高那我們也跟委員報告因為它本身是一個賣空氣淨淨機還有微星感測器的私人公司我們尊重它在國際上發這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14210.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14225.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
新聞但是以台灣我們是採用國際標準的用這個手動來監測然後校正自動的兩個都一起看所以我們是12.8我們才是比較符合國際統一的標準的方法好謝謝部長的解釋所以部長的意思是說這家公司他就是為了要 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14227.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14245.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
這個開創市場所以他故意把這個檢測的標準把它提高可是我還是要跟部長報告就是說我個人認為監測的品質的這個數字可以受公平我也不認為說一個國際型的這個公司他會故意就針對一些監測的數字來去做調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14249.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14264.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
針對他認定的那臺灣那所以你也不認為說臺灣的空氣品質在國際世界排名是第54名有退後8名這你手上的資料是進步嗎所以意思就是說我認為評斷的指標可以嚴格或是是比如說他認為的是比如說超過30 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14266.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14281.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
或超過20是比如說嚴重或不嚴重可是我個人是認為他在檢測的過程中他不會因為說好像要開發市場就故意做更嚴格的或是更錯誤的數據所以我是請部長可以解釋一下說 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14283.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14310.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
是不是你覺得台灣是進步沒有退後我們其實過去從8年前大概20維克PM2.5到了現在12.8那也跟委員報告這進步是很大的但是說真的也到了一個瓶頸我們往下降其實需要很多的努力所以目前我們認為是說我們台灣的空瓶並沒有像這個他評估的這麼超而且我們其實標準都是依照跟著國際趨勢一樣在走的我們的方法學要把它先定義清楚那他把 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14311.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14335.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
他是把很多的策戰的數據做一個平均那我們認為如果討論上以台灣的數字來看的話17.5是沒有辦法代表台灣實際上的空氣品質的好 謝謝部長那這部分我還是當然部長有解釋我們還是屬於尊重好 那接下來我們其實時間的關係我們來看一個表好就針對我們跳下一個表 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14338.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14366.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
好來上一個表上一個表其實那我上次也看到部長有參加一個會議他說民眾的期待希望空污的品質更積極解決資訊盲點那也特別提到汽機車環境的空污比煙囪多以及生活室內空污影響比戶外多結果後來我看到這個環境部有做這樣的一個表談點我國空污的來源的現況規劃精準管制的一個方向那這個表大概的意思就是說境外輸入 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14368.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14383.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
傳輸的這個空氣品質才是造成台灣空氣品質的一個最主要的原因請問那個部長是嗎對這個是把台灣的所有的境外跟境內各種來源做出一個統計調查出來的結果對所以這個部長那個是沒有問題的沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14385.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14404.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
可是部長我看到我這邊有圈一個紅色的框框所以為什麼現在民眾跟環境部跟政府認定為空汙的來源標準造成空汙標準會嚴重的有落差我這邊圈了一個台灣過去大家認為就是因為錯誤的能源政策火力發電火力全開 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14405.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14428.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
可是在這個報告這個資料裡面只有寫說電力業造成的空污只佔全台灣空污的影響的比例只有2.3%請問部長你不會覺得這跟一般人民的認知落差太大啦尤其在你的這個今天的報告裡面還寫出因為空氣的污染你還要要求我們台灣的很多的發電廠比如說協和電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14429.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14443.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
等等這些發電廠要他控制發電造成的空汙可是你比如說協和賣寮等這些電廠結果在你自己環境部的個人認為這部門的認為他影響的部分直接2.3%那我請教部長因為一個2.3的影響而去勞斯動眾來去請台灣的發電量要降低這樣不是跟人民的落差很大嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14456.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14483.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
包委員其實我們的這個降載喔是很多年來都是這樣在做那以前這個電力業的比例是更高那也其實台電也整個就降下來了所以意思是台電現在已經降下來所以台電的占比只有100%只有2.3%你的意思是說人民這個騎車開車占的交通人員12%所以人民要來改善還有一些生物啊生物人員占3.9所以台灣的動物也是造成空污的指標 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14484.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14492.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
是這樣子嗎對這個是經過科學驗證這是有經過我們的專家學者討論出來用各種的大型的模式算出來的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14493.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14517.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
我只能跟部長講這個跟一般人民的想法差太多也跟現在環境部在跟各個部會協調如果是這樣的話那你為什麼要去請台電有一些火力發電少發電他才占100%的2.3啊還要這麼老實當中應該是解決其他的問題相關的問題啊因為他們是固定污染源比較好控制那其他的移動污染源相對的是比較辛苦的所以我但是未來我們會全部一起來推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14518.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14544.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
所以我還是要拜託台中火力發電造成台中的空汙非常嚴重這是全民的共識啊可是我相信不過委員那個共識跟實際上的知識所以人民的共識不對環境部說的環境部要幫人民改一個觀念就是說其實電力火力發電對人民的健康沒有影響只有在全台灣的空汙只有2.3%報委員那個每個地方不一定所以委員你不要套我話 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14545.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14563.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
就是說不要把我挖坑給我跳其實是基本上不一樣的天氣形態不一樣的條件是會不一樣的但是我也必須說現在我們的這種移動污染源遠超過固定污染源了所以這個是我們下一個階段要努力的目標那部長有沒有對你講的這些移動污染源有任何的一些未來的經濟方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14563.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14581.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
這個是我們現在在研究但是報告委員這個很難推動因為例如說像我在韓國曾經介紹他們的細胞簡訊今天空氣不好請大家不要開車到市區去這個在台灣反而空氣不好我要開自己的車進去不要吸到空氣所以這個觀念的轉換的確要有一些方法的那這個部分我們會來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14583.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14606.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
好那我要最後要跟部長講今天外面的霧茫茫那今天的空氣品質AQY指標在新北跟台北市其實都超過100都代表空氣品質差不好不好的一個狀況所以我希望環境部還是要努力所以今天部長我今天有帶一個禮物給你這個這個是橘色橘色的口罩這個是我找到的橘色口罩第二個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14607.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14620.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
粉紅色的口罩那我希望說部長可以拿到這個資訊就希望我們的空氣秉持不要到橘色跟紅色那這邊可以給你讓你繼續來關心我們台灣的這個空污的問題好嗎好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝張偉謝謝部長接下來請楊耀偉委員來做詢答恭請 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14632.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14634.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
謝謝主席 主席請一下彭部長來 請部長楊委員好 部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14663.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14674.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
台電就不用上來齁 不過我先講一下就是說假如說我們的火力發電造成的空汙止戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14676.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14692.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
來源的2.3%那我覺得台電必須要有責任為自己的商譽做一定的澄清跟捍衛假如說這個數據是沒有問題的當然不是說2.3% |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14698.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14718.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
很少因為它是固定污染源所以它影響的區域是比較固定我們當然要盡量的減少可是假如佔總比例的2.3%我認為不應該被放大成這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14725.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14751.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
台電來的人坐在那邊要認真聽真的我真的覺得不用上台因為我只是跟你們講我剛剛聽到這個數據還蠻還蠻訝異的為什麼你們占了2.3%可以被講成好像台灣所有的污染都是火力發電造成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14753.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14764.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
部長 環境部在2月底的時候有舉辦了一個加強空污防治的論壇也邀集了很多國際的學者來討論我們是預計3月底會發布 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14775.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14782.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
新公平政策白皮書對不對對 我們現在正在努力做啦齁可能4月多才會對外公佈好沒有關係就是那我 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14784.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14805.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
我請問一下這個白皮書大概會著重在空污防治的哪些面向因為第一個是剛剛講到的就是認知的問題就是說我們發現民眾對於這種污染來源都一直覺得是外面的可是事實上我們自己汽機車各種的污染也蠻多的所以我們要把這個資訊可以掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14805.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14823.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
所以我們大概呢第一個是我們希望民眾可以走向健康的方式去走所以我們要提出一些污染改善的這個重點例如說汽機車怎麼做工廠怎麼做還有鄰近的生活污染源怎麼做其實裡面最重要的就是說因為我們未來這個總統也特別規劃了2035年要達到淨零2035要減38加減22030要減28加減2其實這個會減的蠻多的那這個減呢其實也會讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14834.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14853.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
空氣品質也會變好所以我們也預期說淨零跟這個空品會兩個共利那怎麼去達成所以這個也會討論那另外一個呢是我是覺得空氣品質需要全民一起做而且要一些新的科技那我也坦承說環境部現在掌握的工具我們經由國際上的專家學者包含日本的專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14854.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14882.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
他們環境省的一些專家來其實我們發現我們還是有一些不夠的地方我們希望未來這幾年可以逐步的來加強改善所以我們大概會提出一個白皮書我們的願景往那邊走好 那既然是願景我就問一下就是我們在空氣污染防治法裡面本來就有相關空氣污染防治方案定期 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14882.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14890.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
定期修正檢討的機制那跟你們現在講的白皮書會不會有跌床駕屋的 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14891.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14920.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
不會我們就是因為我們要走到下一個階段第三期那這個呢就是增強讓我們第三期經由專家學者還有民眾的參與許願能夠得到一個比較好的共識因為我們也發現說我們環境部提的一些政策民眾根本不知道不懂所以就會造成一些缺格那我其實我覺得未來推動公屋是需要民眾一起來支持的所以我們希望讓大家能夠知道所以所以政策白皮書 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14922.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14942.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
欸是是願景對然後也希望我們會落實到這個行動的方案然後法律規定的是行動方案對對對我們希望會落地到行動方案當然這裡面呃我們的都是同一個團隊在在做的所以這個這個是匯集大家的意見有這個完成的意見之後才會真的去執行那執行會更有力道好好那欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14945.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14963.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
部長就是在2月底的論壇裡面呢就是大概有部長有盤點了8項空無減量遭遇的難題啦那我可能今天也沒有辦法一一跟部長做探討我問其中幾點齁就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14967.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14993.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
氣機車排放的問題也就是移動污染源的問題這個的佔比火力發電大得多對不對我也發現就是台灣推動電動機車推動那麼多年補助那麼多錢可是並沒有得到很好的效果那既然你們把這八點列為 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14996.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15017.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
難題部長你有沒有什麼想法就我現在提出來的汽機車排放的問題汽機車排放當然從源頭例如說汽機車把它變成電動化改善空污這是最快的做法不過因為現在的這個補助其實相對的除了我們這個空污抵換方式可以補助之外現在的確回歸到市場機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15017.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15046.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
可是不然我插一下話就是說我也不覺得長期補助是一件好事因為我印象沒有記錯的話補助應該也超過10年10年了 非常多錢那補助那麼多錢可是只要補助減少或者是補助停止就沒有人買電動車這個就事實嘛那有沒有什麼方法可以做改善的 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15048.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15074.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
這個部分其實是如果是汽機車的話因為電動車的話現在其實相對它的造價已經相對的比較電動機汽車啦比較親民那電動機車有些已經慢慢開始降下來了所以我們希望說從市場面例如說國內幾個電動車的業者能夠加速的來進行不管是機車或是汽車都可以來進行那目前的確是慢慢到一個平衡點相對的價位不會差別太大了 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15075.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15098.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
汽車看起來是世界的趨勢就是而且他可能好像市場的接受度也慢慢提高那汽車的部分我還是要在這邊講就是假如電池交換的機制沒有辦法很完善再怎麼推再怎麼補助都沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15100.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15122.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
對 部長汽車因為它比較難交換啦 機車的部分那機車的部分沒有 汽車因為它就是國際的趨勢而且大家比較有信賴感所以可能還好現在是機車的部分因為早期確實是電池的品質然後造成很多人心理有障礙像我本身就是要怎麼推動電池的統一交換 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15129.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15155.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
這個可能要想一下因為目前這兩家他的方式不大一樣而且也沒辦法整合這個就還蠻可惜的因為電動化確實是減少污染最壞的方式那我其他的問題就下一次再問啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15159.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15178.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
好 謝謝恩偉 謝謝部長 接下來請翁曉琳委員來做詢問不要干擾會議進行市長委好 有請部長來 有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15189.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15198.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
部長我想今天本席其實看到這個會議的主題我的直覺就是這個議題氣象變異導致國內空氣污染品質惡化 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15203.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15224.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
似乎就是想要護航現在民進黨政府的無能在整個能源的這個政策上面有很大的錯誤然後所以導致整個國內的空氣品質嚴重的惡化而竟然把這樣的因素推就給歸咎於是因為氣候變遷氣候變遷會造成空污品質的惡化嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15230.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15242.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
二包委員那個是氣象氣象是短的例如說這幾天的天氣這造成混合層的變低那是氣象所以我們今天談的是一個短的問題還是談一個長的問題因為某一個圖盤這幾天空氣品質例如說改吹東風我們這個擴散條件不佳這是氣象的問題這天氣的問題氣候變天指的是長的10年20年所以這兩個是不一樣的詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15253.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15272.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
所以氣象變異您認為說這也是扮演重要的一個關鍵因素為什麼台灣的這個城市的空氣品質會如此糟糕我們來看一下今天的空氣品質剛剛前面的委員有問過其實今天的空氣品質嚴格來說其實是不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15274.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15277.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
這邊寫84普通可是我們看他那個系懸浮為例就是PM2.5 24.4這個已經是超標很嚴重了吧沒有沒有沒有我們如果說是跟這個WHO的標準來看的話WHO的標準是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15291.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15303.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
他建議是5但是其實是5我們24欸那個5很難做得到啊委員我們如果在花蓮也只不過就有7到8左右欸是是5很難做到對台灣來講很難做到對其他國家來說對不對有到7的8的很接近的這個其實別的國家都做得到為什麼台灣做不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15313.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15336.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
其實我們在臺灣在鄰近的亞洲的國家我們比韓國好比日本差一點點但是我們算是已經在前面的我們來看看全球最污染最嚴重的國家這以2024年來講我們是排名54名排名54名意思是說其實我們空氣污染是很糟糕的排名第一名是最嚴重排名54名然後呢南韓是多少59 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15338.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15342.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
新加坡94日本108我們如果要效法這個德國他們已經進入了無核家園人家也是103空氣品質比我們好得多吧你看日本他平均的8.69跟WHO的數字是非常接近的所以我們不要在那邊自欺欺人說我們現在的17.5或是平均20我們的空氣品質很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15363.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15371.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
包委員這個是IQ Air這個是瑞士的一家做空氣淨淨機還有賣儀器的公司做的所以它其實跟我們量測的方法不一樣所以這個數據僅供參考僅供參考所以我們量測的數據也是僅供參考因為我們跟其他的國家相比我們也是不好啊它基本上它是拿著這個自動全世界最權威的數據我們來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15385.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15388.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
對 你可以講說 這個不是最權威的數據我知道 我說請您可以提供一個最權威的數據全世界 有哪個國際組織提供最權威的數據來看看我們台灣的國際排名在最嚴重污染的國際排名裡面 我們是排第幾位麻煩請您會後 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15406.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15425.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
要提供給我好不好一個禮拜之內可以還是三天其實就給我了委員再給我們多一點時間因為要蒐集各國最新的要花一點時間好不好一個月好不好應該是有些國際組織或是學術研究機構就有做啊報委員那個方法學不一樣我們是採用國際上最嚴格的所以你們都是找最有利於台灣的方法學嘛委員你不能這樣說我們是看數據來做事 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15427.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15448.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
看數據嘛 所以嘛這是很清楚的數據嘛你在怎麼批評人家說這個是屬於民間的組織這個是賣什麼空氣清淨機但他做出來的數據跟我們的有差別嗎你看看我們今天來我們看我們今天24.4人家還對我們客氣了這是每天一天一天的如果我們看的是整年的不一樣所以一整年我們也沒有比較好來我們往下面看 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15458.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15479.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
本席現在這邊很關心的問題就是其實我們知道空氣污染與肺腺癌的關係是息息相關那台灣的肺腺癌的人數已經是超過這個前十年要多得多那麼我們這邊就不說了這個事已經是正相關這是大家眾所皆知的事情那接下來我想要講的就是說其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15481.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15509.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
在其他國家也有在談是不是可以放空污假您覺得台灣有沒有必要放空污假這個目前我們台灣的嚴重空污的事件並沒有像這個印度這麼的嚴重印度那麼嚴重其實我們現在跟教育部合作有空污期他就可以適當的有一些及時的反應所以我們要到空污假的確目前還有一段的還有一段路要走目前來看的話因為他們是的確是非常嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15510.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15513.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
是 所以部長您認為我們到目前為止還不需要放空屋價那我們的情況還沒有那麼嚴重我們要去跟那個第一名前幾名的印度比嗎我們可以跟其他的國家比嗎好委員北京上海PM2.5都超過平均年平均值是35那這個印度的這個大概都兩三百以上我們台灣最嚴重的頂多五六十就很嚴重了 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15533.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15539.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
我們要跟好的學習見弦思起煙我們為什麼不去跟日本不去跟德國不去跟法國其他一些國家學對不對我們事實上我們的空氣污染就很嚴重啊就從中南部每次我開這個開車經過台中地區整個天氣就是霧濛濛的啊他就是他不管是天氣好天氣不好他都是這樣啊沒有這個你看到是藍天啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15561.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15590.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
那個是非常非常少數的這是人家記者拍的所以我只是舉例剛剛還沒有講到就是台電的問題對不對你台電現在因為馬上因應核能在核三廠二號機五月叫停止運轉剩下的那個3.5% 4%的電會要用什麼方式來因應是不是台中火力發電廠還要全要火力全開了 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15593.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15608.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
這個到時候我們的空污會不會更嚴重報告委員燃氣基本上那個空污比燃煤少很多而且它相對的很乾淨所以火力發電是燃煤跟燃氣是不一樣的所以部長我發現您的有些訊息也是錯誤的報告委員我沒有錯誤所產生出來的污染物質它還是比核電要多得多所以委員你的意思是這個電廠可以蓋核電嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15620.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15645.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
我不是說這個電廠蓋核電我有說台中火力發電廠改成核電嗎我的意思講說核三廠和其他的廠現在我們在談核電研議的問題請問部長您同不同意您支不支持核電廠研議報告委員研議需要法規還有後面的廢廢料的處理研議的法規是我們立法委員負責從您當環境部長的角度來看您支持核電研議嗎我們要打造一個更乾淨的家園 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15647.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15662.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
核電研議與否是經濟部核安會的工作我現在要問你從環境部的角度來看怎麼樣能夠提升改善環境的空氣品質我們支持低碳的能源 污染少的能源只是低碳您的目標就這麼小 低碳我們有可能淨零排碳嗎要努力 非常努力要努力 非常努力我看如果在你們民進黨執政底下大概不可能完成好 OK 今天質詢到這邊 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15675.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15685.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
好,謝謝,讓他們努力一下,齁欸,阿老,趕快嘿我...給你賺錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15704.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15732.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
好,請劉建國委員發言好,謝謝主席,有請部長欸,莊委好部長好,部長辛苦了啦不過我是剛剛在主持會議的時候我要提醒,有人都委員是針對金融市那個案件我覺得您這邊的答案跟台電的答案是有點 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15734.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15751.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
有點落差 不太好因為兩個的範疇原本就是不太一樣硬放在一塊在講程序的過程裡面我覺得這事情應該是最早就要先釐清應該是台電要趕快先跳出來講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15751.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15767.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
而且是你們自主檢驗的部分確實已經有問題嘛對不對然後他現在又要另外另外一個範圍裡面那邊又有問題然後說你們去抽又出了問題等等等等好諸如此類我是覺得這個事情應該是可以講得很清楚我不曉得為什麼會 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15768.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15793.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
用了這麼多時間而且在那邊爭執不斷嘛那當然我就沒辦法我就想說時間也拖太久後面有這麼多委員要質詢所以我就必須把它切斷那我還是建議說像這種事情可能要慎重而且要簡單而要明確的答覆清楚啦不要造成沒有必要這樣的一個一個一個一個分老但如果講程序來講我還是我還是會著重在如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15793.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15819.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
如果確實不管你台電自主檢驗的部分有出問題他另外講的換酬又有問題那顯然這個環境在進行中雖然是兩個是不一樣的程序但環境部還是要小心台電也是要小心才是一個正確的處理方式那我現在回到主題請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15822.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15844.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
如果各單位在辦這種相關的課程的這個研習那我們也有自己的這個公部門派出的這個講師然後講的內容如果跟這一個我們要講習的實質內容是完全脫鉤完全是不一樣的內容的情況之下你知道這事情你會怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15847.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15874.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
我會去了解他為什麼會這樣講因為我還沒有遇過所以也請委員指正那你已經快遇到了我先提醒一下我們台灣是在2019年成為亞洲第一個通過同婚的國家那也成為這個亞洲人權最進步的一個燈塔部長應該認同吧認同那如果有人在課堂上一直在講這個同婚是有問題的然後還在支持要反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15876.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15905.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
那這應該不是個人自由的意志嘛因為他是在一個公部門辦的課程裡面然後來講這些東西然後跟課程完全不搭嘎那如果部長了解事實上又發生在你的部會你會怎麼處理我會先來了解然後會先去了解他為什麼會這樣講然後如果是有一些概念上的不一樣的話我會請他去上性品的教育好只有這樣而已嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15908.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15926.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
這個我們會如果查證屬實啦他今天我直接坦白講就這樣嘛他是在講什麼他是在講一個環境教育人員的認證研習班啦環境教育研習的認證這個這個範疇裡面跟同性婚姻有什麼關係如果都完全沒有關係的情況之下部長你會怎麼處理他說去你要叫他去上性評的課程還有勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15938.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15964.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
我先再給我了解一下好不好我是先假設說你了解起來事實上就是這個樣子你會怎麼處理嗎我會第一個是說了解說他的影響的程度那我們事實上如果有一些要處罰的事情的話我們都有一個機制例如說我要找專家來看他怎麼樣怎樣處置會比較好那如果說他是太超過的話我們會嚴格禁止他外出不能講這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15966.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15980.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
外出不能講這事情就是不能夠再上這個課我們會再了解一下因為我不知道這內容是什麼東西他就是要他就是是我們的一個授課講師啊然後是在處理環境階段人員認證的研習班上的課程講出這樣的內容啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15985.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
16008.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
我已經明確的表達了啦剛剛部長有答覆我第一個就是說會要求他去上姓名課程嘛對不對第二個我是問實質的他這一個環境教育人員的一個認證怎麼會跟這個同性婚姻有任何的關係那你如果知道這是一個屬實那你會怎麼做出相關的處置 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
16009.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
16029.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
未來不應該他來做這樣的工作所以委員我們再來調查了解一下你知道他不只是這樣還有很多離譜的他包含放的影片你看這個影片部長你看一下我特別標出出來那個右上角這是簡體字他用中國相關的影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
16038.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
16065.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
來做課堂上的一個資料在播放那不只如此還有下一段你要看一下帶酸噎語指名道姓罵民間單位然後上面那一段還好沒有罵到你罵前院長只用自己人台灣人民民族性太民族沒有成果要依據民族性的做法哒哒哒 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
16066.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
16093.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
這個到底跟環境交易人員的認證有什麼關係沒有關係這個我們會來處理這個如果是屬實這一個環境部的這個講師而且又具備公務人員的身份部長要怎麼處置我們會組成專案小組來調查如果要處分的話我們會有一定的程序來去做懲處不只如此我今天是個學員 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
16094.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
16122.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
我來參加這個課程我要繳錢嘛 對不對那我繳了八千塊我得到課程的內容是這樣這八千塊怎麼處理好 委員我們再來了解一下好不好這個是不是它是每一堂課都這樣還是怎麼樣我們會再來了解不不不 不用到每一堂課只要一堂課是這個樣子這八千塊這八千塊我們去跟人家收了 意義何在 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
16125.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
16129.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
我覺得這是一個非常嚴重的事情請部長要慎重的來面對跟處理到現在還有這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16137.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16155.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
的官員的思維還有兼具這種行為然後又是在我們環境部辦的這種環境教育的人員的認證的一個研習班裡面我覺得是華天下是大雞就跟這件事情在講什麼言論自由的有的沒有的其實其實很 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16158.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16172.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
我覺得很不可思議啊我也不曉得怎麼再把這個事情描述因為我聽到這樣的訊息過程裡面我覺得真的對我而言啦台灣已經民主化到這樣程度然後現在還有我們官員在辦這樣的課程裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16173.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16193.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
可以公然的在講堂上講出這樣的話然後用中國相關的影片來做他教學的相關的一些資料他到底要傳達什麼要做什麼動作政卿部長一定要非常慎重來面對這個事情好好把他處理好了好不好沒有問題 謝謝委員今天最主要還是針對空氣汙染的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16195.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16219.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
環境部今天的報告說是全國的PM2.5從105年維克利方米到113年降到12.8維克利方米改善率是36%我要肯定環境部的同仁在107年空華的大修之後在這幾年的努力空污的數值確實是有下降沒有錯但是好還是更好環黨在去年就喊出應該設定在9維克利方米部長怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16223.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16236.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
當然這個我當然是希望越低越好啦但是一個是可以達到的目標所以我們是希望說因為如果要往下走的話其實是真的需要很努力因為我們委員可以看這個數字一點點這個減量的幅度開始趨緩了 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16238.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16255.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
所以當然我現在目前我們提出來應該是淨零可以讓我們這個空瓶可以持續的改善所以也跟委員報告我們那時候算出來如果我們達到淨零的目標的話2031年如果-28加-2的話其實有機會PM2.5可以到接近10年平均值 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16257.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16282.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
2030年 我們是四年要檢討一次嘛 對不對那我們第一期109到112嘛 第二期是113到116嘛116當然還沒有到達嘛那當時我們這個聯軍的標準是從15降到12而且我們環境部還是號稱是這個亞洲最嚴格的標準喔 對不對但是今年報告書就已經說 已經快達標了但如果事實上喔 不等你再看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16283.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16294.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
11到12的年均值分別是13.1還有14.7其實距離年均的所有微客立法院的目標真的是差不了多少快達標了這是這個我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16298.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16324.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
我剛剛特別提到好還是要更好所以我在這邊是不是可以建立部長你剛剛講的是2030年嘛那是不是我們是不是可以提早一點提早一點對嘛OK保委我們現在等於是說那個白皮書我們未來也希望引進更好的政策工具可以算出來我們到底什麼時候可以到因為我來的時候也跟同仁討論我們什麼時候可以到的確那個數字還出不來 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16325.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16346.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
我建議還是要提前啦好不好就是部長的魄力嘛那你講的白皮書剛剛有很多委員是要問你的規劃跟計畫嘛那白皮書也不是規劃跟計畫啊當然你的規劃跟計畫會配合你的白皮書嘛對 七成嘛所以七成我希望說2030年是不是可以再提早四年啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16347.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16376.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
有沒有可能非常辛苦要非常努力我們朝這個目標來打拚了好不好部長好那最後要請部長看這張圖齁就是今天的這個全國供氣品質的狀況黃澄澄的一片啦齁我今天特別安排這個主題是因為台灣的冰藥電平均雖然有明顯下降但到秋冬的這個季節齁因為季風的關係嘛對不對齁污染物污染物無法擴散所以就產生明顯的這個霧霾齁尤其這幾天民眾特別感受到 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16377.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16388.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
在環境部的報告中也明顯的發現其實這幾年的B2.5的均值雖然已經降下來但是每每到這個秋冬的時候它又往上在提高你看11年46、11249、113是20、1148.5了 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16396.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16422.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
上個禮拜的時候是排衛福部啦我特別跟部長提醒啦這個過年期間什麼地方的人數是會最多的地方觀光嘛 宗教嘛另外一個叫醫院嘛怎麼會在醫院發生這種急診有史以來的最嚴重的缺床的狀況然後這是急診議事會特別提出來的那我們每年都知道秋冬確實有氣候的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16423.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16450.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
我們為什麼到現在沒有任何的相關的因應的作為不會讓這樣的一個空氣的汙染在秋冬的時候它所有的數值是往上在飆升的怎麼會沒有就不應該啊因為每年的秋冬它的特性有時候風向不一樣我不要求說它已經就是到那個我們要達到那個目標均值嘛但是它已經增加到百分之二十、三十、四十在這樣跳 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16452.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16470.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
這每天都要生活每天都要吸空氣啊但是你讓一季一個秋冬的季節反而更加的嚴重沒有辦法達到我們原有要求的這個目標跟這個標準情況之下這顯然有很大的一個改善跟檢討的空間嘛我不曉得在你的白皮書裡面針對秋冬有沒有特別因應的作為啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16471.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16498.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
我們這邊會提出一些例如說工業的啊或是交通改善的一些策略方式因為其實現在其實要很努力要到支柱必較啦啊其實這個真的要後面往往下做也跟委員報告就是進入一個深水區的不好做例如說汽機車的管制等等的這個其實是很辛苦的我們會來努力啦嘗試再把它報告白皮書裡面把它納入討論公眾的討論部長我用正面的方式來做鼓勵啦好不好也肯定嘛齁紅皮說 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16500.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16509.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
如果最近我們不算在台灣,大家說四八檔嘛,那怎麼知道處理,那不可能處理嘛,那要去處理的人,那是剛才說的嘛,那可以玩弄錢嘛,當時很多人這麼講啊, |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16511.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16538.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
都很進步 水利署做到了啦對 謝謝委員那時候的這個指示然後有完成了但是其實去年颱風多都有一些摧毀了那個海米颱風來之後後面又有兩個颱風那當然造成原有的不管是這種常規性的還是短暫性的這樣的一個相關的抑制措施顯然被破壞掉嘛那很快速的去做相關的一些運營它還是會降低這樣的一個風險跟傷害嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16541.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16566.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
我是用本來說當時要整治這個紅白沙大家也都是有質疑嘛但是還是還是照這樣做到的對啊謝謝委員所以如果秋季秋冬季我們就會遇到特別的這種氣候問題應該有有相關依照部長的智慧跟各單位的這些同仁的智慧應該是可以來解決吧好不好好我用不來努力啦好不好會啊幾個月內提出相關的一些因應作為啦可以不可以好可以好謝謝謝謝好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16574.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16575.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
請陳瑜委員發言麻煩請環境部部長來請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16595.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16600.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
陳委員好部長好首先先感謝你我特別代表這個關山鎮長還有關山鎮民來謝謝您合訂了這個我們台東縣關山鎮的這個畜牧糞尿資源化處理的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16610.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16625.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
那因為關山鎮其實也是它的米也是很有名不輸池上那它的環境呢其實也是很漂亮那但是就跟池上比較起來可能關山鎮最近的觀光有一些尾數就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16626.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16647.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
在這個量化上有輸了池上一些我想有很多的居民可能到關山會有聞到這個一些這個豬糞的惡臭那我想這個計畫這個經費下去對關山鎮整個的這個這個空氣的這個改善是很重要的所以在這邊謝謝特別謝謝部長的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16650.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16665.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
那今天因為今天安排的題目是這個引述氣象惡化對這個空氣品質影響嚴重那本席過去也特別提出就是東港有這個鮪魚季那台灣到這個美 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16667.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16687 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
每次到進入這個十月之後我特別給它取名就叫做空屋祭來提醒這個環境部要有對策那再來特別東部的這個特別是東部的這個衝擊影響很大尤其是我們這個台東的北南西在這個整個東北季風強風的吹襲之下揚起了這個紅白山我們吃飯要配紅白山那連這個市區都灰濛濛的影響這個民眾的生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16696.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16723.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
那你們今天的這個內容相較於過去有顯示說好像真的有開始在重視這個問題我想在這裡也先表達肯定之意那但是我也同時提醒就是說最近因為可能之前那個風災的關係包括到太馬里地區甚至快到南環那邊整個這個陽城的問題又起來所以這個我們可能未來再同步再來討論看怎麼解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16724.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16751.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
那事实上全球暖化跟这个产业经济的发展甚至在中国大陆的沙尘暴都是会影响整个空气品质的那这些都不是你们环境部的这个政策可以改变的这个我们可以理解那本席也认为就是说为了要改善这个空气品质在气象恶化的前提之下去这个精进AQI的监测那从而提出这个预警可能是 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16751.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16772.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
治標不治本那根本之計還是要控制控制空污的本土性污染源特別是在這個垃圾燃燒還有火災的問題我們從這方面來思考可能比較務實那部長你知道在各縣市的這個垃圾山常常會發生火災嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16773.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16797.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
那這些燃燒的這個煙塵跟黛奧辛對於空污的影響是非常嚴重的好像這個好像就是人啊這個急性中毒一樣這個一次性的這個高濃度的這個高危害的毒性物質的曝露那你們現在處理的這個氣象惡化影響空氣品質的部分喔這是屬於我打個比方比較像是這個慢性中毒的問題齁那 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16799.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16817.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
我相信說部長應該可以接受這個急性中毒可能大家會好像跟民眾比較有這個切身關係也比較感受得到大家應該可以認同這樣的一個論述那部長我要請教說那你到底有沒有辦法讓這個垃圾山不要再發生火災 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16818.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16846.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
好 包委員 垃圾山第一個是要監控所以我們都現在在一些敏感危險的地方都有裝這個例如說紅外線的偵測儀然後還有自動灑水的設備但是其實就是幾個大的會發生火災那當然啦像苗栗前一陣子之前的幾個月前發生很大的這個火災所以現在這個的量可以說是大幅度的減少那我們事實上也是希望說明年年底因為我有對它承諾明年年底露天裸露垃圾山可以不要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16846.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16875.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
所以這個就可以徹底的解決這個問題因為按照部長的面相看來其實算是很有福報的我想在您這個併應之下您剛剛許諾的這個願景應該可以實現那再來談到這個垃圾管理廢棄物的非法棄置的事件是不斷的在發生那根本的問題其實就是出在最源頭的資源循環還有最末端的這個妥善掩埋的這兩個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16876.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16890.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
那現在看起來這個環境部好像這個有這個頭尾兩頭燒的這個現象啦那更遑論說這個掩埋空間掩埋場空間不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16892.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16908.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
所以我們現在就是說既然沒有辦法去開發新的掩埋場那也退不動說活化舊的掩埋場然後非法棄置的事件不斷然後又不敢說嚴格執行就擔心這個垃圾沒有地方可以去就堆積如山 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16909.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16934.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
那這個源頭的這個我想要請教一下這個進度就是有關於源頭的這個資源循環促進法的進度目前是怎麼樣那在整個法規的架構上你有提出說要打掉重練那到底這個重點在哪裡要請這個部長說明一下目前這個草案就是何時可以預告 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16935.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16961.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
好 包委員這個我們經歷了很多的努力這個你說的6月8月10月都是我去年承諾的那現在的進度也跟各位委員說明其實第一個是我們其實進到院裡面跨部會的在討論當中那有些部會呢對於這個裡面條文有些意見但是現在快要收尾了我們希望在未來幾個月內可以先預公告所以目前按照這個時間的進度來看的話應該是要到下半年我希望可以趕快送到立法院來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16961.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16987.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
所以大概今年其實就是意思就是今年其實就是可以讓這個草案公告目前的進度因為其實我們已經在行政院內部是走到最後一里路了因為之前那個我們送的時候也不一樣部會提出不一樣的意見我們必須尊重各個部會在協談當中結論就是今年下半年下半年一定一定會送出來因為這個會期可能來不及 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16987.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
17010.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
好 那我們很期待那還有這個尾端的這個掩埋空間不足然後根據環境部的資料截至2024年8月全國公有掩埋場景只有剩下354萬立方公尺可以用的空間我們的有害事業廢棄物的掩埋空間目前還足夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
17011.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
17040.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
目前的確委員說的都是重點這種有害事業廢棄物現在已經有一些民營的但是其實各地的去化的量剛好都還在一個平衡之間那我們是希望說今年到明年有幾個新的焚化爐可以起來之後可以解決這個問題解決這個問題之後去化的管道或是掩埋場火化再利用管道通了之後其實未來的量這個問題就可以再處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
17040.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
17068.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
是我想你們有重視到這個問題是很好一關一關的在卡在那邊好那現在我們要進入的比較實質那也關心一下我們台東最後就是這個野埋場活化緩慢的問題我想要請教部長台東總共有幾個野埋場委員上面是13個好我都幫你寫好答案你怎麼那麼好心好那個目前活化這個野埋場總共做了幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
17071.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
17086.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
這個我沒有掌握目前最新的 原來做了兩個哪兩個東河跟鹿野我看你是在民防你們這幾年來2016年一直到2022年 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
17091.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
17106.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
就是我看這幾年你們全部全台大概多少300個300多個也蠻多你們才總共做了做了12個啊12個不多對啊台東佔了兩個嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
17108.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
17127.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
是我們總共做了22個因為全台現在在營運中的掩埋場大概有107個那我們活化有做了22個那台中我的印象裡是兩個但是你為什麼講不出來那兩個是什麼因為沒有到現場去直接的勘察它的進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
17129.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
17158.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
我其實也是聽不太懂你們做了哪幾個就哪幾個啊台東13個哪兩個你不會問一下你們單位都沒有人可以支援嗎因為我這裡資料是沒有喔你說有兩個我們現在資料是兜不起來的喔你是不是平常人緣不太好為什麼沒有人來救你都沒有人要支援嗎還是你記錯了根本不在台東 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
17160.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
17187.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
我想這樣子來這幾張是我們Google這個台東野脈場呈現出來的狀況這個大家說台東好山好水啦但是部長你覺得這幾張照片這樣能看嗎完全不能看沒錯而且你要看喔來第一張是不是離海邊很近台東最漂亮的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
17188.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
17209.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
海灘不是海灘對就是海岸線整個都很漂亮嘛所以大家想只要颱風一來每次最嚴重都是台東嘛那颱風這樣一刮一吹這所有垃圾還有一些這些污染都跑到那個就跑到海水裡面去啦所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
17212.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
17238.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
部長我覺得是這樣啦或許在未來我們焚化爐啟動那這樣可能會改善這個掩埋場的狀況啦但是這麼多掩埋了這麼多的垃圾而且早年沒有落實這個垃圾分類的問題所以他一定要先先去處理過這個挖出來的垃圾才能拿去燃燒嘛不然我們焚化爐很快就壞掉啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
17239.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
17261.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
所以我想在這個同時我也不想說等你活化做完我覺得在目前已經啟動這個焚化爐啟動那同步做活化的這個同時我們是不是可以因應台東它是一個我們很我們大部分人就仰賴這個觀光在生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
17262.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
17272.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
還有這個農業那你是不是可以同步來做這個美化這件事情美化我們台東的這些掩埋場我這樣的要求應該合理吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
17273.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17296.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
委員這個其實因為每個地方能夠處理的機制不一樣那也歡迎委員我們是不是下次有機會去考察一下我們可以一起去看那你們要下去之前當然你要做個排序我們一天看不完13個哪幾個最有問題我們最需要去看的那因為我要舉例比如說過去都立有個天空之境 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
17297.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
17325.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
天空很美我們每次帶朋友去的時候想要欣賞那個美麗的天空可是呢我們覺得很丟臉因為我們必須先經過那個很醜的掩埋場然後還要聞到那個惡臭所以我想基於這個台東算是觀光重鎮所以我在這裡要求你們是不是在我們初步可以你們利用兩個月的時間請你們那個環管署啊盤點這個研議那如何這個來 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
17327.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
17353.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
演繹這個如何美化台東所有的掩埋場這件事情沒問題但是我覺得要一步一步的去看等一下你不是環管署的吧他是環管署副署長新的嗎沒有沒有副署長原來的我以為換人了沒有所以署長是沒來對是因為我要質詢嗎沒有是因為今天是空屋所以跟他們環管署比較沒有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
17354.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
17369.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
好 那總之環關署這個重要的任務就交給你們希望你們可以如期完成好 那中間我們有時間再去安排這樣好 沒問題 沒問題好 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長好 接下來請洪文凱委員來做詢答主席 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
17381.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
17382.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
主席謝謝 麻煩請彭部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
17387.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
17411.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
部長好部長先請教一下在氣候變遷因應法裡面很明文規定說2050需要進行碳排的一個方向那我們各部會都要動起來對不對那其中環境部這邊應該也針對是說我們現在行政院有個大的政策方向就是認為是說新的這個建案或者是重大的公共工程要 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
17412.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
17437.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
零碳建築或是淨零碳建築嗎對不對對零碳建築是什麼基本上建築還是會排碳的但是他基本上能夠盡量的減少例如說要用用資源循環的水泥或是建材等等的所以基本上我們叫做淨零碳的建築沒有辦法做到完全的這個零碳沒有辦法做零碳建築但是可以用其他的政策方向手段或者是說用 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
17437.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
17454.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
不管是發電方式還是說那個減少碳排的部分來去做箱底對就是說我說的如果建築物就是建築物的材料的本身來先做處理那會不會因為要追求零碳建築而造成說建築物的安全打折 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
17455.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
17481.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
不會 其實這個都建築物都有一個規範的例如說什麼樣的像有些 例如說水泥或是建築物的材料它都要有一些參比的有些可以用自願循環有些是用原生的材料不一樣好來我們看一下所以即便是鋼筋水泥大樓等等的也不會因為說要追求零碳或淨零碳建築而造成安全性有打折當然建築物安全性是一件最重要考慮的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
17482.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17500.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
沒有錯嘛所以其實本席過去到現在也認為是說就是要這樣的一個方向但很遺憾啊今天本席在交通委員會質詢工程委員會的主委的時候他居然講是說沒有零碳建築啊而且他居然講說如果要追求零碳建築的話就會有安全上的一個打折 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17501.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17523.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
我覺得期期為不可而且覺得說不可思議啊所以部長是不是在這邊本席也提醒因為公共工程委員會是我們全國重大工程的主管機關嘛淨零碳排氣候變遷是環境部主管沒有錯但是我們重大工程如果說能夠來做一個往 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17524.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17553.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
零碳建築或淨零碳建築這邊來追求的話它是可以趨於這方向而不應該是雙頭馬車嘛對 包委員其實這個建築物的更新是我們在我們這個淨零的分類是內政部在主管的所以其實內政部有提出例如說新型的建築或是老舊的建築怎麼去改變沒錯 因為本席也有看到我們行政部門也有這樣的方向嘛但是絕對不存在是說新型的建築裡面我們完全放棄零碳建築或是淨零碳建築嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17554.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17582.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
是吧沒錯所以我們國家重大工程的方向其實就是希望現在所提出來的就是以零碳建築或淨零碳建築來去做一個規劃是吧沒錯好 謝謝部長部長 那拉回來今天本席看到就是所謂的這個空氣品質監測的部分那你在這邊結論裡面有強調是說要成立空氣品質監測跟預報中心我想應該會是更精確的能夠掌握我們全台灣的一個空氣品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17583.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17611.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
它其實是因為我們過去這個監測跟預測是在兼職師另外一個師然後應變又是大氣師是兩個師那在這當中呢有一些模糊的地帶我們希望把它整併經過我們部務規則的處務規則的調整額外到大氣師然後成立一個中心能夠變成說監測預測應變合為一體來考慮這個事情是本席認同這樣的方向因為重點在於是監測完之後要怎麼樣運用以及讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17612.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17628.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
地方政府也好 中央政府也好來去做一個這個因應嘛 對不對那本席有先看了一下我們現在有所謂的空氣品質監測網未來是不是你這所謂的一個監測預報中心就會結合現行有的這個監測網 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17629.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17655.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
能夠讓我們國人有更充足或是準確的一個資訊對 其實就原來這組人移到大氣室去但是他必須加上應變的任務使命在裡面是 那我想請教一下現在的這個監測網裡面我們總共有多少個一個監測站我們環境部的大概是六十六個嘛七十八個然後還有很多的這種所謂的微型感測器大概一萬多個 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17656.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17659.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
地方咧中央其實是87個87個87站那地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17664.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17688.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
28個 34在這都是你們自己的官網數字啦不是要考你這個部分啦但是我現在講的是說中央87地方34那但是淨零碳排的一個部分或是空氣品質的部分剛剛其實很多人一直提到中火本席過去到現在一直強調其實北台灣影響更大的其實是林口火力發電廠因為林口火力發電廠燃煤 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17691.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17710.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
從2015年10年前增加了第三號機組開始到現在已經也經過10年了到目前為止林口火力發電廠的一個偵測部分它是由地方政府來偵測而我們今天所討論很多的包括說PM2.5的部分因為這個算是新的一個很客觀的指標 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17712.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17729.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
部長您知道現在林口火力發電廠此時此刻PM2.5的指數多少嗎要現場查一下要現場查一下你要不要查一下我手邊沒有我直接告訴你沒有因為這一個監測數字在你們的官網上面它是寫未監測 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17731.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17744.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
林坤火力發電廠居然這個我也很訝異我說實在的話我剛剛特別查了一下我也很訝異我要求我要拜託的是這應該是要把它納入一個數字它只有監測PM10但是PM2.5居然沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17748.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17764.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
就是說我剛剛查了在中央的87個站裡面有包括PM10 PM2.5等相關的數字但是在地方的部分我不知道是只有林口火力發電廠這邊獨特還是其他地方的監測站都一樣他居然沒有把PM2.5的資料給變成是一個監測的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17768.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17784.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
我覺得是不是如果未來我們變成說空氣品質監測跟預報中心整合在一起能夠再檢討一下中央地方的一些監測站能夠讓數字能夠更準確尤其是我相信我們很多優秀公務同仁有可能坐在林口 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17785.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17805.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
有可能住在我們新北林口火力發電廠三部燃煤機組火力全開的時候真的對於我們整體北台灣的空氣品質有一定程度的影響部長能夠做到嗎因為那個站是台電提供的嘛台電要不要請副總回應一下來報告委員謝謝委員剛剛的詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17810.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17835.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
那個我們各個電廠含林口電廠我們本身都有跟當地的環保局有SIMS上的連線所有的資訊都有連在上面所有資訊都有的話就不會說網站上面沒秀出來這不是我自己這個是你可以現在去看你可以現在去看因為部長來拉回來部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17837.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17859.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
這個是很實際的數字我更期待的是未來你整合你今天的報告嘛第四點嘛成立空氣品質監測與預報中心我剛才已經先肯定你喔就是說要整合幾個部會預測以及之後的應用大氣的部分一起納進來那本席也期待是說你的官網上要更精進應該是說有一站式的網頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17861.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17879.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
讓國人都可以很清楚明白今天我想了解我地方附近的空氣品質的時候我去點馬上就看得出來那其實這個部分我想技術絕對不難但為什麼說過去沒有把PA2.5的這個數據給放進去而你在上面網站上面秀出來是未監測 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17883.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17892.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
這一點我想我這樣提出來已經算是很公允我們再來瞭解一下也希望讓大家都能夠理解你有PM10但PM2.5居然沒有這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17895.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17914.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
可以做一個檢討改進好不好我大概簡單講一下我那時候我們網頁上是把環保署的環境部的78個站放進來這是第一個再來就是地方的那再來就是四個單位包括台電、中鋼等等那些建設站的方案還有特殊性工業區全部放進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17915.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17926.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
那每一個站應該要測什麼項目呢那就各個站原先設站的時候就已經決定了並不是連線的問題所以那邊回頭要去看一下這些站哪一些項目在增減那個我們再 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
17927.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
17952.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
不好意思 朝偉站起來 你們還是沒有抓到問題啊PN2.5是不是現在的顯學 是嘛你今天通盤的書面報告裡面都認為說PN2.5是影響空汙甚至造成說肺腺癌 我還沒有請衛福部上來2015年開始林口火力發電廠增加三部機組之後過去這十年有沒有針對我們這附近肺腺癌的人口比例有沒有成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
17953.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
17973.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
要不要去檢討要不要去監測要不要去了解要不要去做一個調查那我現在已經講了如果說過去我們沒有這樣的一個數據我也覺得很離譜是火力發電廠旁邊居然沒有監測PN2.5的數值那如果說真的沒有的話是不是應該要增加相關的設備台電應該吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
17978.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
17996.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
那既然這樣的話是不是做一個通盤檢討因應我們現在的中心可能未來官網上線會做一個更先進的一個數據的一個呈現也讓國人更清楚明白了解環境部是玩真的是要真真正正監測我們的空汙改善環境好嗎好沒問題謝謝好謝謝紅衛謝謝部長接下來請陳培宇委員來做選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
18007.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
18035.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
對 好 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝主席有請部長請部長陳委員好好 部長好部長我今天關於空評的部分我們就直接切入我關於談兒少的部分那我其實有看到部長在您上任之後在非常多政策的推廣跟宣示上我看到部長想要對兒少關注的決心確實我在你們很多資料裡面都看到那我們現在就來討論一些比較細緻的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
18036.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
18052.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
因為我相信對於環境部來說其實兒少的議題絕對相對於過去是陌生的因為他關注的是人他關注的是更多原本你們所不理解的我們來看一下報導者之前有說兒童呼吸穴受到空汙的影響我相信相關報導你們應該都看過我就不再贅述我們來往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
18056.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
18071.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
那因為我報告是因為一直長期關心兒少所以如果來看空污空瓶的議題放在兒少身上其實已經很多學術研究都告訴我們小孩是相對脆弱的族群因為他們的呼吸陽量還有毒物代謝的狀態還有他可能會造成哪些影響好 往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
18073.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
18083.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
那如果部長您也認同在空污跟空瓶議題把兒少的權利放進環境部未來施政的重點那我想要問部長往下一樣部長你有沒有看過這個兒童權利公約CRC國內法化之後台灣在111年受到國際專家審查當時的國際審查結論性意見裡面給環境部的建議是說請針對整體環境的變遷對兒少健康所帶來的衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
18101.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
18130.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
在2022年的時候提醒環境部要有所回應當然這個回應不是只是書面回應更希望環境部是有積極的作為但是我們看到在2024年的時候環境部給的回應只有說整體空評標準會加嚴但是到底對於整體兒少的協助還有整體兒少環境的改善如何真的可以促進我剛剛說實質的改變說實話我們到現在在環境部的報告並沒有看見我個人覺得很可惜我們來往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
18132.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
18135.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
那在整理了很多资料之后下一张 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
18136.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
18163.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
我們其實跟很多專家學者也討論過我們也看了非常多的資料我想我有七個訴求非常非常的具體但他可能在很多政策上包含還有跟縣市政府的對接跟討論他都需要環境部衛福部教育部未來一起努力合作這邊第一個是空瓶的法規還有兒少法規的對接怎麼說呢目前跟部長說環境部空瓶的法規沒有落實到校園 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
18164.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
18182.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
甚至在未服務的兒少法裡面的法規也沒有環境部的角色也就是他確實有跨部會工作的困難部長我們時間有限了你不用急著看資料因為我發現如果要把我們今天講這七個做完絕對不是一天兩天也絕對不是一年兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
18183.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
18206.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
他需要日积月累所以我觉得今天我只是想要借由这个议题日后开启跟环境部在儿少空品上的讨论跟实际的推动第二个我们希望可以加强校园空品的法规跟执法目前呢室内空品法要求校园要做空品检测可是在相关执法公布的场所里面却不含校园 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
18207.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
18215.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
好再來第三我們希望可以加強有害空氣污染物的檢測跟稽查原本預計要納管72種可是公告的時候只剩22種我們認為應該要滾動檢討相關的加強監測還有稽查第四個我們希望可以加強HFPS資訊公開跟易讀性我知道環境部目前有所謂的空品監測年報可是所謂的有害空氣污染物卻沒有相關的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
18232.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
18257.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
另外我們雖然有特殊性工業區有監測相關數值但有公開上網可是不易讀也不及時我目前都談到的是跟校園而上有關都還沒有牽扯到其他產業的問題第五個校園跟工業區周遭化射空氣品質維護區這個其實是我們應該有能力比較快可以做到第六個我們希望可以針對敏感跟弱勢族群提出有害空污之健康風險評估報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
18258.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
18277.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
那關於這件事情要如何針對兒少老人慢性病這些脆弱敏感族群目前只有NGO跟很多學者在做我相信環境部應該可以有角色那當然也包含衛福部接下來最後一個環境正義地圖我們希望可以了解多重污染的交織性目前環境部的相關資料是把水 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
18279.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
18299 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
還有空氣還有土的污染資料全部都分開那我們認為在多重污染困境的環境的不正義社區的可能性也許在回應到我剛剛說的國際兒童人權專家審查的時候環境部到底對於兒少的這個部分做了哪些事情我認為最後一個可能也會幫我們環境部加分 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
18299.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
18322.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
好 我的這些訴求我剛開始已經說了一點都不容易達到但是我很希望環境部在後續可以有相關的動作跟相關政策推進可不可以請部長回應一下好 謝謝委員提出這麼寶貴的意見這個兒少的問題包含了這個我們過去的確是例如說在室內空瓶污染的監測或是中小學有一些規範但是事實上委員前面提到的這種所謂的對兒少的國際的公約的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
18325.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
18350.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
我會回去再瞭解我們是不是可以有一個更好的一個回應那委員這個七點呢是不是容許我納入我們的空品的白皮書因為我們正在擬定那我們絕對會我承諾會加強這個兒少的保育因為這個是我們的未來我們要投資他們所以這個部分我們會把它納入進來那部長我是不是最後可以拜託由我們辦公室先來主動找你們召開一次會議我們把相關細節來討論之後我們各自努力好嗎好沒問題謝謝委員那我們再找你們開會謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
18353.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
18380.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
好 謝謝省委 謝謝部長接下來請徐欣穎委員 徐欣穎委員 徐欣穎委員不在請徐滬軌委員 徐滬軌委員 徐滬軌委員不在請葉仁芝委員 葉仁芝委員 葉仁芝委員不在請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在好 本會議選打全部結束委員黃秀芳 蘇清泉所提順便質詢列入紀錄刊登公報那現在做一下決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
18381.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
18395.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
第一報告及詢問完畢二委員執行為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內已順便答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定那本次會議到此結束現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
18410.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
18413.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
在這裡面那個...對,小心一點我去幹嘛,你再小心一點謝謝 |