| IVOD_ID |
165154 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165154 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-06 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
13 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-06T10:28:12+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-06T10:44:25+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:16:13 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b25429c8c6a3a8cfbad494715864dac91e8053ceea3e5d7422b881fe7d28f4594876b56de8f8c9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王定宇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:28:12 - 10:44:25 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-06T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「因應無人載具大量投入現今戰場，國軍如何構建無人載具部隊及訓練規劃、裝備籌獲等具體做法」，並備質詢。） |
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我們請軍令系統我們副參謀總長請副參謀總長那其他有關不管是無人機或反制無人機不管是科研啦戰規啦相關的就需要補充可以上來補充啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
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這個黃上將我為什麼請你上來因為你們是用這些東西的單位在參謀本部將來各個作戰單位你們是使用無人機或者使用反制無人機的單位目前不管是商規或軍規無人機在軍事用途上他最新的趨勢最新的科技在戰場實際的運用上是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
43.544 |
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委員好 我是副總長執行官 跟您做個報告實際上這個一方面是當初他設計的時候我們所這個大家所想要他的這個簡單來講嘛 我實際上就是說興趣是什麼我想有一部分我的看法跟馬委員差距不遠有時候我們當下沒有不行可是我們明知道半個月之後或三個月之後他就變成沒用了 |
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68.041 |
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或者像曾經紅極一時的彈簧刀現在在烏克蘭戰場上效果不好因為你會用人家也會反制你嘛所以我現在要問你的是就目前在參謀本部你們了解起來軍事用途的無人機最新的發展趨勢 |
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這個Cutting Edge最新的這個趨勢是什麼其他單位補充 我不是要考試很可能後續會導入AI智慧的運用他到空中之後他可以自行辯證目標並且分析用AI之後用AI我要用干擾的方式有沒有可能當然也有可能所以說他在抗干擾的技術甚至有部分現在在戰場上運用已經導入了光纖導引等等我提這個點我們這不是研討會 |
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我看到我們要買四萬五千架當然現在拉下來重新思考了四萬五千架的無人機如果我們開的是現在熟知的規格等你招標完成那個通通落伍了幾十億幾百億它就變成沒用錢的損失浪費我認為還是小喔最怕的是什麼安慰劑效用就是我以為我有了我以為我有這個戰力了真正在打的時候它變無用 |
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143.783 |
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那個更危險所以現在無人機的新科技的導入它的新趨勢第一個是AI的運用GPS deny就是沒有GPS的環境下它能夠飛行或者沒有導引的狀況下它能夠去處理這個大概現在是無人機的方向當時為了對抗干擾你看烏克蘭戰場一大堆光纖的尾巴齁那個線拉在屁股後面可是那不是好方法現在慢慢就沒了為什麼我順著線就可以打掉那個飛手啊所以 |
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不管是AI GPS或者是群工或者一台主機帶著一群我根本我們的飛手訓練現在有什麼Level 1到Level 5將來我下指令圖面給他他就自己出去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
189.019 |
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202.007 |
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我上次問一個在國防展的他說訓練三分鐘看得懂這幾個字下指令就好了跟現在我們還要訓練那個穩定度我那時候看呂坤修上將在那邊操控也許再過三個季節再過幾個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
205.101 |
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229.148 |
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這個不一樣了所以這個不是國軍的問題我們國軍是強求穩定的發展所以我要有五年兵診我裝備出來我要有教範我要有訓練計畫訓練計畫之後我每一個中心要放什麼樣的教官放什麼樣的這個教科書這個是我們國軍既有的架構可是現在變化很快當你建構好了花了大錢簽了約要人家來訓練的時候 |
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231.195 |
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247.521 |
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下個趨勢可能飛手不用了他用的是下指令的方式像海馬仕坐標按一按三分鐘就學會了所以我第一個命題要請教就目前參謀本部在思考這些所有的軍事用途的文機要不要納入稀土 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
249.686 |
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270.748 |
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報委員C2的部分本來就是無人機系統不管是反制或者是它要不要納入你們三棟裡面我們軍團要不要納入我們的Control Command這C2裡面這部分已經在納入了它當然分成不同層級的運用的無人機放在不同的指管層級所以我們採購的無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
271.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
284.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
你當手榴彈用的就飛幾公里去把錢炸掉了那個大概指揮鏈不一樣我的意思我看到你們開出來的規格都沒有考慮C2你沒有納入指管那飛出去打到誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
286.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
301.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
很麻煩欸報委員 指管基本上來講有一部分都是大範圍運用的那個都已經在本來在他的監偵跟他的這個指管系統裡頭都已經整合在我們的指管裡頭了我透過質詢那個副參謀總長跟我們讓我們了解說我們要採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
302.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
317.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
都要 我認為是應該要盡快給你們運算盡快支持你們建構 本席是支持甚至於呢 現在不是軍方需要捷運需要 高鐵需要 核電廠需要 電廠需要都需要 但是做對才不會浪費錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
318.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
338.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
不是只單獨便宜我單獨便宜買了安慰劑直接吃下去夠心命好像沒問題真正要用的時候不能用嘛所以我剛才講的納入只管我希望在未來我們無人機採購的時候你要有這些啊他要能夠跟誰對話他要能夠被誰看見否則不要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
339.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
354.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
他國的友軍我們自己的國軍裡面的友軍都要擔心這個飛出去撞到誰會被打到民船無人船我只貪圖便宜好像便宜很好用就要出去跟自殺炸彈客一樣到處亂跑你沒有納入職管 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
355.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
378.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
你怎麼去監偵他你怎麼去處理這是我要講的第一件事情我不曉得這個黃三江你看吧委員這部分是委員的指導的確是非常正確的不過我們現在現在無人機現在已經引用進來的規劃包含這個從高階的無人機一直到部隊基本階層使用的無人機軍規的大概沒問題我現在講的是商規那手上放上來就飛出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
378.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
402.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以說那個作戰單位成績他們在因為這個部分是例如說這個分散食指管並且交給任務室指揮我們會運用我們正常例如說TAC系統我們直接交付到基礎的單位我們現在的無人機全部都可以跟TAC系統連線嗎我們現在TAC系統實際上是配付給個人跟部隊的這個指揮官到達前線之後可以配付到最基本的連級甚至連級以下的單位參謀本部在用兵也是軍令單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
405.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
416.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我們現在採購的所有無人機不管是砲兵單位在用的海軍陸戰隊在用的在你們的指管系統裡面都看得到 指揮得到我們會透過不同的系統去一直指揮到最基層用無線電 那個太慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
420.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
441.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我講的是在共同圖像裡面在共同指管體系裡面我能夠導引他到指定的位置去打特定的對象我必要的時候他可以drop把他放掉我們現在所有的採購有納入嗎現在是我們正常的正常的指管體系裡頭採購的新的指管裝備和通信系統就已經可以做到這個地步了陸海空軍都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
442.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
461.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
當然是陸海空軍整體的考量我們現在陸軍本身指管系統都不太有了你可以無人機納入我們現在是建立新的我們不要講好聽話 我覺得不足我支持你預算 補足來我們陸軍那個部隊從A點到B點還在動拐動動 check |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
462.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
489.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
通報執行官那個不叫那個跟我們一般的command control不一樣欸實際上這次在我們這個光復箱救災裡頭我們已經把這些新的這個你們有跟消防各方面那個TAK那個整合第一個我建議我們這是一個挑戰我再強調一次我沒有說誰對誰錯我也不懂全部我這次去台美國防會議我也問他這個問題到底無人機的標案要怎麼寫啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
490.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
492.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我根據現有成熟的寫出來的標案 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
493.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
521.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
招標那一刻他就落伍了如果90億100億丟下去不是國訓要浪費啊這是一個趨勢我覺得在立法院我不會去指責你們浪費因為這是一個新的樣態所以第一個新科技前緣科技的能力怎麼寫在標案裡面可是又因為是前緣科技很容易只有他有別人都沒有我怎麼樣透過採購法規的保障避免動不動被人家講哎呦你只有一家有在賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
522.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
542.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那就他最好 我當然只有那家在那邊 懂我意思嗎就是說要避免圖利 又要買到最新的在法規面 這個採購案部長是法律專家 在建案之前這個要思考清楚第三個 以參謀本部的角度無人機的運用或反制無人機的運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
544.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
562.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
每個單位都一樣嗎那當然需求也不一樣當然依照各部隊他的任務和屬性的不同會有相當的差異黃志偉上將是空軍嘛是你是我們空軍的長官我就問你反制無人機如果在機場你們第一個要考量什麼他會不會干擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
563.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
587.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
除了機場本身是不會被監偵或者被進來攻擊之外另外我們這個進出的航路以及航空機飛行的機遇會不會受到影響我現在裝一個無人機的反制系統我裝在列嶼 裝在左營軍港或者我們既得艦上面裝在我們這個坑子口 裝在龍鋼大操場裝在我們的這個制航基地 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
589.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
607.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個反制無人機的標準會一樣嗎當然不一樣 這個是又牽扯到我們國軍現在作戰的頻譜管理的問題一個是頻譜管理問題 另外一個美國在反制無人機至少我看到空軍都要求 至少至少要FAA approved |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
608.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
628.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
不用certificate就是說美國的航空運用的核准就是要避免干擾航道的通訊所以我剛才只提的就是說無人機的運用我砲兵我以前用觀測的用報座標的火力那個效果效率設打一門之後再來做校正 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
628.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
646.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那個時代過了 現在可能無人機座標提供第一門打中了 兩分鐘內我就要拔腿就跑了 以免被反擊嘛那我透過這樣的運用 我減少兵源 編制調整我的邊線筆才不會永遠不夠所以他需要的無人機不一樣 跟我海軍陸戰隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
648.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
663.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
在面對有鹽分的有水分的地方他用的也不一樣所以我這一個部分要提的是國軍的標案怎麼可能甲乙丙丁物五種買四萬五千台發下去你是要各單位自己拿蘿賴把這邊調整自己的需求嗎這不對嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
667.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
691.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
實際上我們剛才部長也針對這個問題也做過回答我們在未來的這個購案裡頭實際上已考慮到這個迭代變換的需求所以說是分年採購在這個採購上面這個如果有新的技術也有更新上面的這個規格的限制你們是用兵單位我建議你們現在是買方市場我一樣買四萬五千架我在立法院的態度預算我認為應該支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
694.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
721.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
預算不是在算達到幾%幾%啦那個GDP3%5%我認為不應該這樣算而是我們有沒有需求需求來自於敵情的威脅當中共有原火部隊我就要思考面對長城火箭我要怎麼處理當中共的無人機侵擾越來越多我就要思考我要哪些類型的反制無人機的做法在平時我不能硬殺那軟殺無法的時候該怎麼處理我們的需求堆疊起來的國防預算是幾%就幾% |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
724.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
752.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
給國軍好的待遇也要給國軍好的裝備而提供好的裝備才是我們軍事採購的第一優先發展國安產業是附加價值不能本末倒置我花了國防預算就要買給國軍對的東西而對的東西可以帶動國內產業的發展這是好事情可是我不能為了發展產業給國軍次等品說沒關係你先用我把市場做大起來如果買得到買不到當然我們就自己研製買得到的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
753.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
770.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
花錢要買給國軍最好的啊因為那是生命攸關的事情所以我剛才講的不管是前沿科技的運用AI啦等等納入指管是一個關鍵C2這要納入第三個我希望的是一樣四萬五千架搞不好有一百個規格那我就給你掌聲鼓勵了 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
772.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
799.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這一個台南空軍基地需要的規格是這種這一個在樂山鋪路爪需要的規格是這個在太平島上需要的規格是這個不同的需求不同的作戰環境他應該有不同的規格現在在無人機其實已經慢慢走向買方市場客製化單位需求化當然我們不會弄到那麼細大的模組而不是甲乙比丁物這麼大的量然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
801.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
810.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我要請教你們先請我請部長我最後請教三個問題我們現在無人機反制系統要買635套 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
815.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
832.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我剛才問到問題部長應該知道我接下來要問什麼了這635套96億我個人認為無人機反制應該加速盡快建制起來否則像烏克蘭對俄羅斯的蜘蛛網行動我們現在台灣的空軍機場沒有一個防得住 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
833.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
847.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我們基地像我台南機場旁邊都民設我租一個民房還不用貨櫃車勒我在那邊藏了二三十台無人機飛出去管你IDF還是F16先炸掉了所以我們的無人機的防制 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
848.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
868.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
的設施確實是極度的脆弱要趕快建立我贊成但是還是那句話要做對來給預算要做對的事情所以第一個能不能對抗新的趨勢現在你們建的案一口氣買這一個635套我不知道規格是什麼我看到你們只想要有干擾啦要有takeover |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
870.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
885.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
takeover這個要跟資料庫有關資料庫的擴充性以及它對於新的無導引的AI的群工的你們這些一口氣買這麼多套他們有沒有這樣的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
886.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
909.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
包委員我簡單補充這個有關於這個系統我們的期望也是依照二屋戰爭的經驗我們希望它至少達成三大功能第一個是能夠自動徵收自動指引第二個同時能夠干擾多批次多架式的無人機跟現在的UDS的這種干擾掃描不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
910.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
935.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
時間的關係齁我還要提醒部長各單位反制無人機需求會不一樣環境的限制也會不一樣千萬不要一個規格買一堆然後到時候不合用一堆浪費我又要重新買一堆無人機反制無人機軍用確實需要預算確實該支持給你們但是當你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
936.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
955.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
定標案的規格的時候要思考他的科技前緣性他的AI的導入新進科技的導入以及各單位需求的不同特別是環境的不同陸海控就不一樣了不要說系到各部隊然後最後我提醒陸軍你們我今天本來要問你們天山營區阿兵哥沒有水可以用 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
956.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
972.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
要解決 你不能不解決早上都不能刷牙 開什麼玩笑因為他是那個管路木刀這個問題我只是提醒這件事情天山盈區 連早上都不能刷牙沒有水這件事情要解決如果需要協調地方自來水供應單位我幫你們一起來協調 |